The Sandwich Generation: Episode 3

If you're feeling squashed between competing needs - raising kids and caring for parents while trying to work/live/look after yourself, for example - then this episode is for you. 

Brooke and Ben talk about what it means to be a part of the 'sandwich generation', and why, for them, it represents a transition rather than a challenge to be overcome. They discuss what being sandwiched could look like, why the additional pressures of caring so often fall to women, how they manage expectations, why they're thinking so far into the future, the slow living tools that might help, and yes, their favourite sandwiches (yes, really).

In the reflection part of the pod, they talk about different types of community, and the lightbulb moment that came in a recent comments section over on The Tortoise.

Head over to The Tortoise for the full show notes, and if you haven't already, make sure to subscribe to the free weekly newsletter while you're there. 

Join The Tortoise Community: https://brookemcalary.substack.com/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:02):
The tortoise. The podcast that digs deep into the. Possibilities
of slaughter. I am your host, Brooke McAlary, and I'm
joined by.

UU (00:18):
It has been co-host Ben McAlary. Hi.

S2 (00:23):
To eagle eyed listeners. That's a term that's a that's
a common term.

S1 (00:33):
Yeah.

S2 (00:34):
That's a slight tweak on your normal intro.

S1 (00:36):
Yeah, I was thinking about it this week actually, when
I was preparing to record, and I don't know, there
was something about. The word. Possibility that feels more in
line with the with the whole idea was it before
like digs deep into the power of slow I think

(00:58):
and it's definitely powerful but I like the word possibilities
or maybe potential I don't know.

S3 (01:02):
Anyway, change it up. Yeah.

S2 (01:04):
High power possibilities and potential.

S1 (01:08):
That's a bit of a mouthful.

S2 (01:12):
Hi. How are you going? I'm all.

S1 (01:13):
Right. How are you? Good, Good.

S2 (01:15):
This is a third episode in the. Yeah. And then
in the new world of podcasts. And let me just say,
we are thrilled with the feedback we've got from new
and old listeners, actually.

S1 (01:29):
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, via email, via the website and
reviews for those people who have been kind enough to
leave either updated reviews or new ones, it's just been
really lovely. You know, a lot of people saying kind
of similar to how we've been feeling that it was.
Time for a change and that this change seems to

(01:49):
be heading right. I know it is for us. Yeah.
So it's really it's just lovely. So anyone who's gotten
in touch or left a review or, you know, left
a comment over on the tortoise. Thank you. It's been
really nice to to be back and to be heard
and yeah, it's cool.

S3 (02:07):
It's really cool. Yeah.

S2 (02:08):
Very appreciative of of all of that. Now we've got
a bit of a jam packed episode that we need
to get through. Don't stop. Don't just stop, Stop. We're
going to talk. Well, a few different things, but like
our topic and we every episode, we have like a
central theme or topic that we like to explore. And

(02:30):
for this month, it's all about the sandwich generation. And
I'd like to just firstly I'd, I'd known of the
term before, right? Like I knew about it, I'd read
about it and heard about it years and years ago
and it talked about middle aged people, essentially. That's, that's the,

(02:52):
that's the sandwich generation.

S3 (02:53):
But why are they sandwich.

S2 (02:54):
It's not the definition. I'll get to that very, very shortly.
But I'm like, oh sandwich generation. I've got kids and parents.
I don't feel sandwiched. So this was, you know, like
decade ago I was feeling like, you know, I get
the term but I'm not really. I. I don't see
it myself. Didn't really know. Didn't relate to me until

(03:17):
this year. And I very acutely am aware of what
the generation of what the sandwich generation is, what it
means and how it feels. So the definition is middle
aged people very rough term that have. And care for

(03:41):
a younger generation. So kids as well as an older
generation slash parents so young, so take care of. Look
after from a non-financial and financial.

S3 (03:58):
Point of view.

S1 (04:00):
In some capacity.

S3 (04:01):
In whatever.

S2 (04:01):
Capacity that.

S3 (04:02):
Is. Yep.

S2 (04:02):
Okay. That's essentially what the sandwich generation is.

S1 (04:06):
And the sandwich refers to like being the meat or
the jam in the sandwich. That's one. Yeah. And sort
of the pressures. The pressures that are involved in that
is sort of the defining idea about the sandwich generation.
It's rather than not just saying this is where you

(04:28):
lie in. In between generations, but rather you're feeling.

S4 (04:34):
Squash pressured?

S1 (04:37):
Yeah, I think pressure is is probably the word that
I would use to describe it. I'm not just speaking
personally either. Just. I feel like we and lots of
people we know are in that period just by virtue
of our age and stages of life in a big

(04:58):
in a big shift of seasons towards perhaps more of that.
That particular kind of pressure or those two kinds of pressures. Yeah.
And I think. I think it's something that's still quite
new to us. I mean, I did a bit of

(05:19):
reading about the. The term sandwich generation. And it applies to.
Anyone from their 30s through to their 60s.

S3 (05:28):
Really? That's not found as well.

S1 (05:29):
Yeah. And I think that, you know, people are having
children later as well. So it used to just be
middle aged and to me middle aged was 40. Yep.
Smack bang. That's like once you middle age, once you're 40,
a middle aged. And then I turned 40 and I'm like, me? Yeah.

S3 (05:44):
Well, happy about that.

S1 (05:48):
Uh, yeah. So that's a that's a long period of
time for people. That's a huge amount of that's a
huge chunk of life to be feeling those pressures. And
the more I've been reflecting on it because you were
the one who brought it up to me while back
and I've been reflecting on it a lot and reflecting
on my own parents. Experiences raising me and my sisters

(06:11):
while also caring for their parents who or had various
health issues over the years before they passed away. And
it's given me a huge amount of empathy and understanding
for what life was like for them that I wasn't
aware of at the time. Um, yeah. So that's kind of.

(06:37):
I'm finding myself quite I feel quite conflicted talking about this,
to be perfectly honest. Why? Because you and I have
both gone through things with parents in the last couple
of years that have been really challenging. And, you know,
you're sort of staring down. The runway towards perhaps more

(06:58):
challenging times. And yet we are very fortunate, you and I,
in terms of our circumstances, the way that you and
I work, the way that our relationship works and the
way that we've structured it, that we've both got both
of our parents still alive and still in good health.

(07:18):
They're still very active. So we're not. I'm nervous to
feel like I'm comparing where we're at with. Challenges and
demands that other people deal with all.

S2 (07:31):
And I guess it refers back to the the definition
we gave around sandwich generation in that like it impacts
like three decades of people potentially. Okay so you know it's.
Very broad and it and it and it can you know,
impact like a in in a in a financial sense

(07:53):
it can impact in a time like time sense or
a caregiver sense like there's a there's a lot of different.
Influences on. There's a lot of different ingredients in this sandwich.

S3 (08:07):
Oh.

S5 (08:07):
Oh, oh, oh.

S1 (08:09):
Okay. We're going like sandwich analogy.

S3 (08:11):
Yeah.

S2 (08:12):
We're going to go deep into the sandwich analogy. Okay.

S3 (08:15):
So like a triple decker sandwich?

S2 (08:18):
Well, I mean, yeah, if you.

S6 (08:22):
If you like that.

S1 (08:25):
If you're a big fan of bread.

S6 (08:28):
Exactly. Actually, let's.

S2 (08:30):
Just ask this question before we get to further into
this discussion. What's your favorite type of sandwich?

S7 (08:37):
Okay. This is quite appropriate, actually. I'm currently having having
to eat gluten. Yes.

S1 (08:44):
So I'd been like gluten free for quite some time,
health reasons, and I.

S7 (08:49):
Having to eat gluten for at least the next couple
of months. So I'm.

S1 (08:53):
Quite enjoying embracing.

S3 (08:54):
The sandwich.

S1 (08:55):
Love toasted sandwich. Yeah. And first thing that comes.

S3 (08:59):
Pressed.

S2 (09:00):
Sandwich I guess.

S3 (09:02):
Yeah.

S2 (09:03):
Is that what it is in North America or is
it a toasted sandwich? Like a.

S3 (09:06):
Toasty. Yeah. Toasty. Yeah. Yeah.

S1 (09:08):
I like a cheese toasty. Yeah. On the side of
a tomato soup. Well, I also love indigestion.

S7 (09:15):
Apparently, but.

S1 (09:18):
Yeah, that's. That's the first thing that's come to mind.
I've had some good sandwiches. Okay. Best sandwich. I think
I've ever had. Yeah. Was. At a sandwich shop in B.C..

S3 (09:32):
British Columbia. Yep.

S1 (09:33):
Called Hoss and Jill's. Yep.

S6 (09:36):
I remember it. Oh, well, my God.

S7 (09:38):
So our friend Catherine told us about it.

S1 (09:42):
And I loved Catherine before, but I love her even more.

S7 (09:44):
Recommending this sandwich.

S1 (09:46):
Best sandwich I've ever had was unbelievable.

S3 (09:48):
I forget.

S1 (09:48):
I forget the name of the town, but it was like,
you know, when you get a ferry across one of the.

S3 (09:53):
Way between.

S1 (09:55):
Revelstoke.

S3 (09:56):
And Nelson. Yeah.

S1 (09:58):
And Jules shout out hope they survived like the shop
survived through COVID.

S7 (10:02):
Yeah.

S2 (10:03):
Big fan. I'm a big fan of like the Italian
sub hero type sandwich. Like the big. Yeah, like.

S3 (10:10):
That. Like a.

S7 (10:11):
Meatball.

S2 (10:12):
No, no, no. Not meatball. Like, you know, salami and like.
Like all the different sorts of deli meats, which I
think I actually had at And Jill's. Okay, so. Well, unreal.
Like with pickles and, like, it's good to have the
relishes on it. And like this.

S3 (10:30):
Dressing, I could.

S1 (10:31):
Just happily have a condiment.

S3 (10:33):
Sandwich condiment sandwich with.

S1 (10:34):
Like, mustard and relish and pickles.

S3 (10:37):
In fact.

S2 (10:37):
When we do hot dogs, you have a condiment hot dog.

S7 (10:40):
Right? Well, I don't eat meat, so, um. Yeah.

S1 (10:45):
I. It's true. I do. If I don't have, like,
tempeh or something in the fridge to put in the oven,
I will.

S7 (10:50):
Have a cheese and condiment roll. Anyway, so.

S1 (10:55):
This is now a.

S3 (10:56):
Gourmet.

S2 (10:57):
So hungry. And I just had lunch.

S3 (11:01):
Moving on.

S1 (11:02):
To sandwich.

S2 (11:05):
The of the sort of articles I've read about the
sandwich generation, all of them have spoken about how it
impacts women more.

S3 (11:15):
Yes. Or they.

S2 (11:16):
Have. They're the ones that are more involved. Is that
your understanding as well?

S1 (11:22):
In a stereotypical sense, yes. Yeah. And I completely understand why.
If you're looking at domestic load, if you're looking at
like heteronormative relationships and, you know, dynamics, then you've. Stereotypically
again got women who are doing the vast majority of caring, unpaid, caring.

(11:45):
And women are also brought up to believe that that
is a role that they should be assuming. Um. And
we're told that we can and should be doing it all.
And that feels like a lot before you've got kids
and then you've got kids and then perhaps your parents
get older and then you start to take on some
responsibilities for them and their care. And suddenly you're looking

(12:08):
and you're like, Your plate was full before any of that.
Now where's all the extra going? You know? And that's
where we see a lot of women talking about the
absence of self care, the financial impact of that, the
mental health impact of that, the physical health impact of that.
You know, when you're not when you're when you're under pressure,
when you're stressed, when you're experiencing challenges like that, it

(12:32):
will impact things like your ability to sleep well. Yeah.
And when you're not sleeping well, you're fatigued. Your health
takes a hit. You then perhaps don't have the time
or energy to eat as well as you would like to,
which then impacts your ability to exercise. And the flow
and effect is very real. And I think that again stereotypically.

(12:54):
That stuff affects women more because we're taught through lots
of different channels that in order to be a good, compassionate,
caring woman, we put ourselves last. I'm not saying that's
the case in our home, but I am saying that
there is a reason that that stereotype exists, and it's

(13:17):
incredibly challenging for people.

S7 (13:21):
Um. Yeah.

S1 (13:22):
What do you think about that? Because I know you're
someone who has taken great lengths. You've gone to great
lengths to shift that dynamic in our house, in our relationship.

S3 (13:32):
Yeah.

S2 (13:32):
And and definitely in this house. But also now trying
to extend that into sort of. My broader family in
in acknowledging that. And I've got a sister I'm one
of four eldest of four kids, youngest is a sister

(13:53):
who's just had a baby. And so the the pressure
and and and fatigue and, you know, just the whole,
you know, being in the in the thick of it. Right.
When you when you have a baby. And then to
think that my sister would then have to like drive
the whole. Parents and and sort of, you know, sorting

(14:18):
out my parents retirement and aged care and, you know,
financial issues like all that sort of stuff. Like I
didn't want that to happen. So I've tried to I
tried to have a more active role in it early on.
And and. Yeah, just to try and and because geographically

(14:41):
she's quite close to them as well. Right. So that
that's an extra layer there where I'm kind of more removed.
So much to your I guess. Like, not frustration, but
you're like your. Wanting me to be balanced. I'm. I'm

(15:02):
probably biting off more than I can chew there on
my my parents side of things of of the sandwich.
The top layer of the sandwich. Sure.

S7 (15:11):
You're also the eldest.

S1 (15:12):
Yeah. You know, and I think.

S2 (15:14):
That's that's a big.

S3 (15:17):
Big factor. I think that.

S1 (15:18):
Like birth order typically tends to impact those sorts of things.
You know, I look at the same in my family
and we all, based on the order of birth, we.

S7 (15:28):
All have like our different roles and our different strengths. Yeah.

S1 (15:32):
And for you it's very much you take ownership of that.

S7 (15:35):
Um.

S1 (15:36):
Of, you know.

S7 (15:38):
Getting stuff done and Yeah.

S1 (15:40):
I also think.

S7 (15:41):
That you and I, for whatever reason, maybe it is
like this the slow.

S1 (15:46):
Living journey we've been on over the last 15 years
or so. We're quite attuned to the idea of getting
ahead of things. Like I know we've spoken about our
health journeys over the last couple of years and how
we really like probably the biggest driving force behind us

(16:07):
wanting to focus on our health is that we want
to age well. And I know that through a certain
lens that can sound like almost fatalistic.

S7 (16:16):
It's like you're 40, you're 41.

S1 (16:17):
You're not old, you don't need to worry about it.

S7 (16:19):
Yeah, and I get that.

S1 (16:20):
Yeah. I'm not trying to be older than we are,
but I think you and I both, for whatever reasons.
Want to head off some of the. The worst that
can happen now, you know, and build those patterns and
build those. Those muscles, literally and figuratively.

S7 (16:40):
And do you.

S1 (16:42):
Think that us engaging with this idea of the sandwich.

S7 (16:44):
Generation.

S1 (16:45):
Is also.

S6 (16:48):
That was my.

S2 (16:48):
Favorite way of saying.

S6 (16:51):
Thanks.

S7 (16:53):
Do you think that's.

S1 (16:54):
Also part of maybe mine and your tendency to think
ahead like we're trying to? Min minimize the impact of that.

S3 (17:03):
I think there's.

S2 (17:04):
There's definitely a number of what I would call slow
living influences on the way we're going about things and
reading some articles on the sandwich generation and what like
experts and I'm talking about doctors and psychologists and all
the rest of it are sort of recommending people do
that are in the sandwich generation. I'm like, well, thankfully

(17:25):
we've we've been there and we kind of understand some
of this. And so at things it's things like yeah
thinking ten years in a right in the future what
does that look like? What are the things we need
to do now? For that to be realised ten years
down the track. Right. Things like. Extracurricular activities that kids do.

(17:50):
As you know, being in the sandwich generation, you could
do something every day of the week. Sure. You know,
like sport and music and you just name it. But by.
By limiting that or or getting kids to just sort
of recognize what they really want to do rather than
us pushing them into things that we think they should

(18:13):
be doing. That's balance, right? Like that just creates balance
and it frees us up to be able to then
look at the other side of the sandwich for some
of our time. Do you know what I mean? Like,
so we're not tilting so far over that the sandwich
and ingredients for.

S7 (18:28):
Oh my God. So what we're really.

S1 (18:31):
Looking for is a.

S7 (18:31):
Toothpick.

S2 (18:33):
Slow living is the toothpick.

S5 (18:35):
Oh, okay. All right. I like it. Yeah, I can
dig that.

S7 (18:41):
I think.

S1 (18:43):
Yeah. Okay. So.

S7 (18:46):
I think that.

S1 (18:47):
It's impossible for us to unpack the last 15 years
of learnings and lessons and experiments from where we are now,
and I'm very grateful for what we have done and
what we have learnt and what we've experimented with. Yeah,
you know, yeah.

S7 (19:04):
None of that.

S1 (19:05):
Has stopped what I have seen mounting in you, which is.

S7 (19:12):
Pressure.

S1 (19:13):
I feel like and I already said that pressure is
sort of the word that I would use at the moment.
And it. I feel like along the way you have
absorbed the idea that now this kind of era, this
decade of life in our 40s is when we should
be at our maximum earning capacity, earning.

S3 (19:36):
Capacity and.

S2 (19:37):
Contribution to the society. Right. Influences on your kids like
you look at it and and it's. This age is just.
You're just bombarded with that.

S3 (19:50):
Yeah, right.

S7 (19:51):
Stuff because I mean, you look at.

S1 (19:53):
Beyond work, which is by far the biggest time and
energy contributor to how you're feeling at the moment. There
is also obviously the parenting and wanting to do that well.
And I feel like our generation as parents and carers
have absorbed the idea very deeply that we need to

(20:16):
be as present and as engaged in our kids upbringing
as possible. Like of course that's that sounds great and
it is great and I agree with it. However, what
that looks like now compared to what that would have
looked like 20 years ago or 30 years ago as
a parent is very different. I'm not saying easier or harder.
It's just.

S7 (20:35):
Different.

S1 (20:36):
And. I think it's very hard to not take on
board a lot of expectations and shoulds and judgments, you know,
from the multiple inputs into our lives media, social media,
older generations who are far more engaged than their older
generations were. You know, I think that when you look

(20:58):
at our parents, they're far more engaged with the world
and with, you know.

S7 (21:03):
Parenting and with.

S1 (21:05):
You know, what the challenges facing kids are. Then their
parents were. From my understanding, from my experience, you know,
I feel like people when they got older back in
the day, they just they got older and maybe their
worlds got smaller. I don't know.

S2 (21:20):
Yeah. Be something like that.

S1 (21:22):
Whereas now I don't think that that applies to older generations,
you know, typically.

S2 (21:28):
MM Well working much longer. Working much longer. 100. Yeah. And.
Still being able to contribute to society in other ways
when you're much older. Now, compared to previous.

S3 (21:46):
Years, and I think that like generations.

S1 (21:48):
The role of technology in that can't be understated because.

S7 (21:52):
To me they used to.

S1 (21:53):
Feel like there was a huge generation gap between, you know,
between generations. I don't feel like that is nearly as
prevalent anymore. I mean, there are there are holes in
understandings and that's as it should be, I think. But
I think that the world is much smaller now.

S7 (22:11):
In.

S1 (22:12):
A different way to what I said before. Like things
don't feel so out of reach based on your age. Yeah.
So all of that for me. It adds up to
a sense of.

S7 (22:26):
Pressure, like you've really got to do it.

S1 (22:28):
Right, because we've got all the information and we're all aware.
And so, you know, parenting, that's a huge part of it.
But then there's a big conversation about, as you said, contribution.
So I know you and I feel very much.

S7 (22:42):
Um.

S1 (22:44):
I say obligated, but I don't mean.

S7 (22:46):
In a negative.

S1 (22:46):
Way. We feel very much part of communities.

S7 (22:50):
And showing.

S1 (22:52):
Up believe that you need to show up, you know.
So that for us is it's volunteering its time, energy,
effort going into various programs over the past few years and. Yeah, it's.
When I look at all of that through the lens
of slow living.

S7 (23:10):
I get really.

S8 (23:14):
Um.

S7 (23:17):
I find it difficult to like to.

S1 (23:21):
Separate out like the shoulds that are positive shoulds and
the shoulds that are negative shoulds and how much of
it like there's a certain level of guilt almost that
comes with it. When I look at it through this
lens of slow living and I'm just sitting with that
for a while because what I think all of this
adds up to for you and I and a lot
of people in a similar stage of life is it's

(23:42):
a transition into another season and transition to messy. And
they're painful and they don't happen overnight like it's going
to take a while. So I'm just trying to sit
with it all and knowing that on the other side
of it, at some point I'll look back and recognize
that all of this has shifted.

S8 (24:00):
Yeah.

S7 (24:02):
I feel like I'm rambling.

S2 (24:04):
It's good you processing it and thinking about that and.
Knowing your personality, there's no wonder you feel guilt, right?
Because that's just part of your being. But at least
you're out there in the game like you're actually doing it,
like you're in the trenches, you're doing the work. Whereas

(24:25):
if you feel guilt the other way when you were like,
I should have should be doing this, it would be
totally different, right? Sure.

S3 (24:31):
Yeah.

S7 (24:33):
Yeah. I guess.

S1 (24:34):
That's an important distinction to.

S7 (24:36):
Make. Mm.

S9 (24:43):
What other.

S7 (24:46):
Do you feel any other.

S1 (24:47):
Pressures at the moment like. You know, we've got parenting,
we've got community stuff, we've got work, we've got being
part of a larger family and what that looks like.

S3 (24:57):
Yeah.

S1 (25:00):
Do you have any others that things that feel like
pressure points for you or that have changed and become
more obvious?

S2 (25:06):
I guess it's the whole and it's going back to
like being in your 40s and this is the time that,
you know, you're earning capacities at the highest and all
that sort of stuff.

S3 (25:16):
Who says that, by the way? I don't know. I
read it somewhere. Okay. Sorry. Go on.

S2 (25:20):
It was it was connected to the Australian census that
happened recently last year. And they said they identified, I think,
43 as like this magic year where. You know all
those factors contribute to. Anyway, I'll link it in the
show notes to this episode, perhaps if I can find

(25:42):
it again. But. It's what what's my legacy going to
be like? Really? Think about like what? What am I
going to.

S10 (25:57):
Leave.

S2 (25:59):
The world in and after. I've. Come off the pinnacle
or the top of of my, you know, existence, you know,
like I'm trying to like, I'm I feel like I'm
moving into the stage where it's sort of like, this
is what I'm going to do when I when I
reach this age and I want to be this like
all that goal orientated stuff. If I want to run

(26:20):
my own business or take, you know, like travel overseas
and work tick, do you know, do all that sort
of stuff Now it's more like, Oh, like what? Do
I want my grandchildren to be proud of or recognize
who I am and what I do? Is that sort
of next phase? So that's a pressure for me at

(26:42):
the moment is like, what is what is the next
thing that I'm going to do?

S7 (26:47):
Right. Do you feel.

S1 (26:48):
Expectations and like shoulds around what that.

S7 (26:54):
Should look like.

S2 (26:56):
It should be successful.

S3 (26:57):
Okay.

S2 (26:58):
It should be. It should make a huge difference. Oh.

S3 (27:03):
No pressure. Yeah, like.

S2 (27:04):
Me. Like it's that sort of, you know. Big picture
sort of stuff. But yeah, it's it's just something that
I need to explore and sit with and feel uncomfortable
with for the time being. But I really feel like
in a transition period and it's a little wonder like
you were wearing a 40s, right? Sure. It's gonna it's
going to happen but it's just about yeah, like what's,

(27:29):
what's what's next?

S7 (27:32):
I mean.

S1 (27:33):
I've also been reflecting similarly, I guess, over the last
little while and I know if you listen to the
Slow Home podcast over the final couple of years that
were very sporadic, you would know that my dad went through.

S7 (27:48):
A period.

S1 (27:49):
Of being in hospital. He was in the ICU for
like 12 weeks or something back during COVID, not because
of COVID, but during COVID. It was, I think. We
locked down for the second time when he was in
the ICU. So I spent a lot of time away
from home. He survived. He has made an incredible recovery.

(28:12):
For anyone who may have missed that, just letting you
know he's doing great. Um, what that whole process taught
me or showed me. And I feel incredibly privileged for
lots of reasons to even be able to reflect on
it is. You know, my sisters and my mom and
I went through a period where we were letting everyone

(28:32):
who my dad knows know what was happening. And that
meant a lot of phone calls, a lot of text
messages to a huge number of people. My dad knows
a lot of people in a lot of different spheres,
you know, through his work, through community, through everything that
he has done in his life. And I got to
see what he meant to so many people. And like

(28:55):
I knew this is stuff that I kind of knew
in a. Hypothetical sense. You know, you kind of know
you're aware of things, but you don't know it, you
don't see it, you don't hear it. And it was
almost like that outpouring of love and appreciation that people
sometimes experience at a funeral or after someone passes away.
But he didn't pass away. You know, like what a
what a phenomenal privilege. And I think that that is.

(29:19):
Two years on is now starting to really percolate into
the way that I'm thinking about maybe what I'm going
to do in the next season of life, you know?
My parents, certainly people who over the years have put
themselves at a disadvantage in order to show up in community.

(29:40):
You know, they will sacrifice time and energy and. It's
a real call to. Reflect on what that will look
like for me. I don't have any answers.

S2 (29:53):
Yeah, and that's okay, though.

S3 (29:55):
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

S1 (29:57):
I'm okay with not having answers.

S7 (29:58):
For a while.

S2 (30:01):
But it is kind of hard for you because you're like,
you would be like, no, I've got to I've got
to get this right and I've got to like, I
need something to work towards or something to consider. Like,
it's not often I don't think that you don't have
like this. I feel like sometimes you have too many.

S5 (30:23):
Yes, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.

S1 (30:32):
Yeah. So, you know, all of that adds up to
the picture, I suppose, of. Where we're at. So I
agree with you that you said that one of the
pressures you were feeling was that of legacy. And, you know,
part of me again is like, well, we don't need
to be.

S7 (30:48):
Thinking about that. Yeah, we're only in our early 40s.
But the other part of me is like, well, actually.

S3 (30:52):
Ten years.

S2 (30:53):
You did plan ten years in advance. Sure. That's what
we've said. Yeah, that's the that's the that's the big
takeout for the sandwich generation.

S1 (31:01):
Okay? And that's not just from us either.

S5 (31:03):
That's.

S3 (31:04):
That's actual experts. Yeah.

S6 (31:05):
Yeah.

S1 (31:06):
So how can we navigate this sense of. Pressure, you know,
how can we. Knowing what we know about the way
that we like to live, but also the things that
we've learned over the years or experimented with with slow living.

S7 (31:21):
Um.

S1 (31:22):
What are some ways that you and I can and
perhaps already do or are trying to do to help us?
Move through this transition period.

S2 (31:37):
Well, I mean, I did speak about the kids extracurricular thing, so, like,
narrowing that down and like, prioritizing that, which is not
only helpful for you, but, like, it gets your kids
focused on like a few things rather than doing a
not good job at everything. Do you know what I mean? Like,
it's yeah, it gets them to prioritize, which is a

(31:57):
good life lesson. Some of the writings and articles that
I've written that I've ridden, that I've read. With the
sandwich generation. Talk about things like getting a cleaner into
like for your parents house and you know, it just
costs money. Yeah. Like, and I'm like, that's not feasible
for them. Like jority of people like.

S7 (32:17):
Especially not.

S3 (32:18):
Just throwing.

S2 (32:19):
Money at like outsourcing different things. Right? But I guess
for us, it's not trying to do it all I
think is really important, particularly because we're one of four siblings,
each of us are. And so it's sharing that load,
like planning and having open conversations with everyone about giving them. Right?

(32:40):
This is, you know, you're good at this. Why don't
you you take the reins on that. Whereas, you know,
like just giving people roles and responsibilities I think is
really important. But it's also. Particularly with my situation and
how it's, you know, with my dad and how he's

(33:00):
got dementia. It's not getting better, right? Like, it'll never
get better. So it's doing the work now so it's
easier in the future, right? And that's something that I
need to get moving on. It's that whole piece.

S1 (33:13):
And it's striking that balance, isn't it, between living in
the present and enjoying. Yep.

S3 (33:17):
Where you're at. Exactly.

S2 (33:19):
Exactly.

S1 (33:20):
And planning for the future, but not living in the future. Yeah,
it's it's really tricky. And I mean, I think for
what it's worth, I think you're doing a very good
job of doing that. And I think for me the
biggest takeaway is just talk, just conversations. And that goes for,
as you have already covered, you know, if you're looking
at your parents, not like I'm not talking about our

(33:40):
parents specifically, but if we're looking at down the track
at aging parents and ways that we can support them,
talking about it ahead of time is so important for everyone.
But also just if you're feeling these senses, this sense
of pressure in life. Having someone, a friend or, you know,
a group like a community group.

S7 (34:02):
Or an online.

S1 (34:04):
Community or something, somewhere where you can share how you're
feeling and what the pressures are that you're under. It's
so important. It's it's validating. It helps us to recognize
that we are by no means alone. You know, if
you've got a mate, if you've got like a sibling,
if you've got someone online that you can send an

(34:25):
email to every couple of weeks just talking about how
you travelling, I think that makes an enormous difference because
so many of the articles that I read about people
experiencing these sorts of pressures. It was there was like
a a thread of almost. Hopelessness to them where it's
people like, well, everyone's feeling the same. And, you know,

(34:45):
I'm not asking anyone to help me. I'm just it's
just hard. I just feel alone. I'm lonely in this struggle.
And I think sometimes just sharing the load through conversation
and saying, Oh, mate, me too, or God, that's hard.
Or let's carve out an hour a month and we
can go for a walk together and just have that
time where it's just, you know, whatever it might be.

(35:07):
I think anything that that helps us to feel less like,
you know, we're getting squashed and no one cares.

S8 (35:15):
Yeah. Um.

S7 (35:18):
But I also think.

S1 (35:20):
Viewing this kind of period as a transition is so
important and recognizing that that's what it is. So taking
some time maybe to revisit things like priorities, as you said, values.
The way that we're spending our time and energy and.
Recalibrating it if we need to. You know, if we're

(35:41):
spending our time and energy on things that perhaps used
to fit in the previous season of life, and we
keep doing it because that's what we've always done. But
maybe it might be time to to rethink that.

S7 (35:54):
You know.

S1 (35:54):
And.

S7 (35:57):
I don't think.

S1 (35:58):
That we can have a fresh start or a clean
slate in these instances because we've built ourselves up over
those years and years. But, you know, I think that
seeing it as an invitation to. To question and. Yeah. Recalibrate.

S7 (36:15):
That's probably like a more.

S1 (36:17):
That's me seeing it through this, the lens of slow
living that I often do. But I do find that
that really helps when we.

S7 (36:23):
Yeah.

S1 (36:23):
When we reach periods of change.

S7 (36:25):
Yeah. Yeah.

S2 (36:28):
Sandwich generation. Let us know your thoughts.

S7 (36:31):
I would be really interested.

S1 (36:33):
Yeah, very much so. So, as always, you can find
show notes for each of these episodes over at the tortoise.
So if you go to Brooke McAlary substack.com, that's where
you'll find the tortoise. You can just search for episode
three up in the search bar. You'll find the show
notes and leave a comment and let us know if
that's something that you've experienced yourself or if you have

(36:55):
any insights. I know we have a hugely diverse range
of people who listen to the show and read over there,
so I know that people have got things that they
can share that will be helpful to others. So if
you feel like.

S7 (37:09):
You've got something to offer.

S1 (37:11):
Please.

S7 (37:12):
Pop in.

S2 (37:13):
I shared the concept at a men's table that I'm
part of. Sandwich generation erased it and no one had
heard it of it before. So that's again, another reason
why I thought was a good theme for this. I
don't know how common, you know, common knowledge it is,
but yeah, it's just interesting.

S3 (37:32):
Yeah.

S2 (37:34):
Now you had an interesting theme that we want to
just pick up on really quickly before we it's our
second theme for the episode. Yeah.

S7 (37:40):
So usually we.

S1 (37:41):
Reflect on something in the second part. Yes.

S2 (37:44):
And you wanted to talk about two sides of the
word community.

S3 (37:50):
Right.

S7 (37:51):
So I put together.

S1 (37:54):
Like a bit of an introductory post over on the
Tortoise a few weeks ago where I introduced myself, but
also asked people in the comments to let me know
what they pictured when we spoke about community.

S7 (38:08):
Um.

S1 (38:09):
Because it's a notion that I find a lot of
tension in. I say that I want it and I do.
And I believe it's incredibly important. But I also have
over the years put myself in a position where I'm
trying to develop some kind of. Community tool or place,

(38:29):
and I burn out really quick and then I fold
it and I feel guilty about it, you know? So
I think that perhaps my understanding of community has been.

S7 (38:46):
Unclear, maybe. Yep.

S1 (38:47):
So anyway, I was curious to see what readers and
listeners thought of when they pictured community and. Well, there
are loads of comments that are brilliant and so heartwarming
and life affirming and I love it. And that's why
the tortoise is my favourite corner of the internet.

S7 (39:05):
But one.

S1 (39:06):
Of the commenters, Stephanie.

S7 (39:08):
Left a comment.

S1 (39:10):
That I have not stopped thinking about. And you and
I have had several conversations about it.

S7 (39:14):
Awesome. So I just want to read.

S1 (39:16):
Part of her comment.

S7 (39:18):
She said, I.

S1 (39:19):
Think for me there are two aspects.

S7 (39:21):
To community. Excuse me.

S1 (39:23):
There's one you can create either online or in person
with like minded people that give you a sense of belonging.
And there's also a local aspect to community that you
don't always get to choose and where people are not
always like minded, but being a part of a local
community of people living in close proximity, even if that's
all you have in common, is important to me.

S7 (39:45):
I think perhaps the first.

S1 (39:47):
Kind of community fills you up so you can take
part in the second kind, which can often drain you.

S7 (39:54):
Community is about give and take.

S1 (39:56):
There are aspects that should fill you up, but also
you need to give a part of yourself. And I
suppose good community is where those balance out.

S7 (40:04):
And like that was like a light bulb for me.

S6 (40:07):
It's, it's.

S2 (40:09):
It's so funny because when you read it, it's like, oh,
that's obvious. Like, that's the obvious distinction between community. Yes, right. Yeah.
Like when you, when you boil it down. But it's
expressed so beautifully.

S7 (40:21):
Yeah, absolutely.

S3 (40:22):
That.

S2 (40:23):
I just yeah, it's amazing.

S1 (40:26):
So I think that I never made that distinction and
I was always confused about why I was so drained
by all efforts to build and partake in community. And
I think it's because I was looking for the first
type in the second. Yeah.

S2 (40:42):
Square peg, round hole. I that's 100% what it is. Yeah.

S7 (40:47):
And it's not to.

S1 (40:48):
Say you can't find them in the same place, but
I think my expectation was that I should and I
don't think that's the case. Mostly. Truly. I also think
for me, I've been thinking.

S7 (41:03):
On it a lot.

S1 (41:05):
It speaks to. It's also something I've been thinking about.
A lot because it speaks to like.

S7 (41:19):
How.

S1 (41:19):
Binary and divided society has become. Where I think because
of technology, because of social media, because of what the
news media has become, it's like us versus them.

S7 (41:32):
In.

S1 (41:32):
All aspects. You know, it's who you vote for. You
know what you think about this issue, how you're going
to show up in, you know, in this part of
the world, whatever.

S7 (41:44):
It is.

S1 (41:44):
It's like yes or no, in or out, me versus you.
And when you.

S7 (41:50):
Choose.

S1 (41:50):
To someone else commented, they're like, I may not vote
the same as my neighbors. We may not have the
same values, but when they get sick, I show up
with casserole.

S7 (42:01):
And I love that.

S1 (42:02):
Because specifically because it challenges that us versus them mentality,
that binary mentality.

S7 (42:08):
It's really hard to just.

S1 (42:10):
View someone as someone who votes differently to you when
you've stood next to each other at the school sausage
sizzle for four hours. So true. And you've chatted and
you've seen them interact with their kids and, you know,
they're people where people. And that sounds so basic. And
you're probably going, Well, yeah, duh. But. I don't think

(42:34):
we act like that.

S3 (42:35):
I know.

S7 (42:36):
Yeah.

S1 (42:36):
You know, and I think that is because we've become
so used to this person over here is worthy of
my time and energy and effort because we think alike.
This person over here is.

S3 (42:49):
Not because we don't.

S1 (42:51):
And because I fundamentally disagree with them on this thing.

S3 (42:54):
Yeah. On this particular issue. Right.

S7 (42:56):
You know, and it's.

S2 (42:57):
Madness when you break it down.

S3 (42:59):
Like that. It is.

S7 (42:59):
But I actually also think that's why community.

S1 (43:01):
Has broken down in so many ways. You know, and I.

S7 (43:06):
Don't.

S1 (43:06):
Want to get into this whole like.

S7 (43:08):
Pointing the finger at.

S1 (43:09):
Social media thing, but I will for a second because.

S3 (43:13):
When you shake your fist at it, you want to
angrily point your.

S2 (43:17):
Finger.

S7 (43:19):
At my feet, point my feet.

S1 (43:20):
Two feet.

S7 (43:24):
When, you.

S1 (43:24):
Know, people are used.

S7 (43:26):
To.

S1 (43:27):
Being able to express their opinions on social media, suddenly
we know things about people in our community, about their
inner thoughts, about their biases, about their.

S7 (43:39):
Values that we wouldn't otherwise.

S1 (43:42):
Know. Like if.

S7 (43:42):
Facebook didn't.

S1 (43:43):
Exist, we probably wouldn't know most of those inner thoughts
of people. And I don't necessarily know that we need
to know those things. You know, all the time. I
really don't. In light of how divided society feels at
the moment. Chicken or the egg? I don't know. But
because we do know that it becomes very easy to put.

S7 (44:04):
People in boxes.

S1 (44:05):
And I think that the more time we spend, even
in that draining version of community, you know, showing up
at the local fundraiser, giving time, you know, for the kids,
supporting team, working in the school, canteen, whatever. I think
that that removes so many of those boxes. And to me,
that can only be a positive thing.

S8 (44:27):
Uh.

S1 (44:29):
And I think that that's really the alignment of. Legacy,
Slow living, paying attention. Being, you know.

S7 (44:38):
Just being a.

S1 (44:39):
Good person.

S6 (44:41):
Mm hmm.

S2 (44:42):
Big community member.

S7 (44:45):
Yeah.

S1 (44:45):
But then the flip side of it is, okay, how
do we identify? Elements or types of community that fill
us up.

S7 (44:54):
You know, and then you buy.

S1 (44:55):
Then you kind of go back to the divided nature
of society and people feeling lonely and nervous and not
confident in connecting with people they don't know. And so
how do we build that? You know, are those.

S7 (45:09):
Cup filling community.

S1 (45:11):
Spaces going to be increasingly online where it's. Maybe easier.

S7 (45:16):
To to.

S1 (45:17):
Find like minded people. I still absolutely I think that
we can we can totally do that. And I think
that we should. And I think the Internet gives us
the opportunity to connect a very disparate group of people
around something that perhaps they're all passionate about. But there
is also something really.

S7 (45:38):
Valuable in connecting in person.

S2 (45:42):
It's so true. And when you were talking just then,
I was just thinking about. It is so easy to
connect with like minded people. Online. And, you know, like
I read a blog about a particular subject and it's
my opinion as well. Right? And it's it's easy and
it's like, yeah, and go us and you know, you

(46:03):
can you write a comment and it's. Basically adding to
the chorus of comments on the issue, whatever it is, right?
It's a theme or a topic or, you know, whatever.
And that's important and that's cool. And I think deep
down you're like, Yeah, this is this is a good thing,
but it doesn't fill me up like going out and

(46:25):
doing a four hour sausage says, or going out and
volunteering for a soccer gala day. It doesn't fill me
up like that at all because going out there in
the community. In the broader local community and working with
other people and. It's harder, right? You have to push

(46:46):
me a little bit more. It's harder mentally for me
to go, Oh, okay, I've got to do this. But
it fills me up more to do that stuff compared to.
My other community. Mm.

S7 (47:01):
So how do we prevent.

S1 (47:04):
Burnout then, because I think that's the other element to
being community minded, being someone who will put your hand
up and say, Yes, I will, you know, give up
my Saturday.

S3 (47:15):
Yeah.

S7 (47:16):
That's interesting language.

S1 (47:17):
That I just use. Give up my Saturday.

S7 (47:19):
Yeah. No, but.

S2 (47:19):
That's what that's what.

S6 (47:20):
People say. Sure.

S2 (47:21):
Oh you gave up your Saturday for that. Yeah.

S8 (47:24):
Uh.

S1 (47:25):
So, you know, you're someone who is you have that
tendency to say yes. You're also someone who will be
asked because you have the tendency to say yes.

S7 (47:35):
How do we. Continue to.

S1 (47:39):
To give. In a way that's sustainable.

S3 (47:46):
I'm asking.

S2 (47:46):
I don't know yet because I haven't had a breakdown.

S5 (47:50):
Oh, wow.

S2 (47:53):
That's my personality, though. It's almost like I'll keep going.
I don't know where the end is. I don't know
where that line is. This is a different topic.

S7 (48:03):
This is very much a different topic.

S2 (48:05):
That's my personality, though. It's like I actually don't know
how far I can push myself.

S1 (48:09):
Do you ever feel comfortable saying no?

S2 (48:12):
Do I ever feel comfortable saying no?

S11 (48:16):
Sometimes.

S12 (48:19):
Okay.

S2 (48:22):
It's hard. It's hard for both of us. We're not
naturally that way. Getting getting better.

S3 (48:31):
How do you do it?

S2 (48:34):
I get you to do it for me.

S6 (48:38):
It's not true. It's not true.

S2 (48:40):
It's one particular situation that we both are thinking about. Oh,
I just, I, I say no in a very. Like,
I just don't have capacity to do that. Like, I will,
you know, that's just what I I'm like in that
I won't say like, no, like blunt. I will say. Unfortunately,

(49:02):
I can't I can't do that right now because of X,
Y and Z. Right? Like, yeah.

S3 (49:09):
Yeah.

S1 (49:10):
It's something I still very much struggle with. So I
what I need to do is develop like.

S7 (49:16):
An answer.

S1 (49:18):
You know. My friend Kelly Exeter used to say things
like something like, Let me get back to you as
like the buffer.

S3 (49:27):
It's a great response, the buffer response.

S1 (49:29):
And then that just gives you that extra moment, that
extra hour, a day or whatever to develop an answer.
That is. No, but doesn't feel negative, you know.

S7 (49:42):
Yes. It's the postman.

S3 (49:43):
A little bug.

S2 (49:44):
Pug.

S3 (49:45):
It's the postman.

S7 (49:46):
It's okay. It's okay. He's not going to hurt you.

S6 (49:49):
Come here.

S7 (49:50):
It's all right. It's okay. No.

S13 (49:54):
Good boy.

S2 (50:01):
You're saying you want to say to the people.

S8 (50:04):
He's gone quiet now.

S6 (50:07):
It's the postman. Okay.

S7 (50:13):
And then I think also just.

S1 (50:15):
Recognizing in ourselves that we need boundaries. Yeah. And that
we need to develop them and then.

S7 (50:21):
Honor them.

S1 (50:23):
Again, Not something that I'm specifically particularly good at, but.
Being aware of it, I think.

S7 (50:29):
Is half the battle, being aware of our capacity and
being aware. Going back to like the.

S1 (50:34):
First part of our conversation, being aware that that will
change over time. Our capacity will change over time.

S7 (50:41):
Do you know what I mean? Like, there are seasons where.

S1 (50:44):
Last year my workload was not nearly as high as
it is this year. Which by design. And also by.
You know, having health stuff to deal with. That meant
that my capacity at certain times of the year was
much higher and I was able to put my hand
up in a volunteering community kind of way.

S7 (51:04):
That I hadn't been.

S1 (51:05):
Able to the year before. And perhaps I can't this year. Know.
So reflecting on all of that is important to and again.

S2 (51:14):
You got to know yourself, right? As soon as you
become resentful, Hey, you've gone too far. Yeah, That's the
point where you're like, hang on a minute. This is
like my eighth weekend in a row of doing this thing.
And there's other people that could like getting getting resentful
in that community space is. It's a one way ticket
to better Town.

S7 (51:35):
Yeah.

S3 (51:35):
Yeah.

S7 (51:36):
And I think that that's where.

S1 (51:38):
Noticing, which is one of the big pillars of slowness
for me comes into it because you can tap into
your own self-awareness. You've got tools that allow you to
do that. Go, Why do I feel like this ahead
of this? Event or this thing that I've said yes to.
Why do I feel sick or why do I feel angry?

(51:59):
Or why are my shoulders up around my ears? Oh,
it's because I am feeling taken advantage of. It's because
I'm feeling resentful or it's because I'm feeling a bit
burnt out. Being able to tap into that ahead of
time is so helpful because you can then still uncomfortably,
still awkwardly, but say, Actually, I can't do it this weekend.

S7 (52:20):
Actually, I'm having a bit of a health dip at
the moment. I cannot make that event. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

S1 (52:26):
And that's that's maybe where it all comes together is
being able to recognize in ourselves when it's gone, as
you said, too far.

S7 (52:34):
Yeah. For a minute.

S3 (52:36):
It's interesting, though.

S2 (52:37):
I love the I love the comment, the original comment
on community. It's just not honest. I mean, it's just.

S3 (52:43):
You know, it's like perfect.

S7 (52:46):
Yeah, It's like a.

S1 (52:47):
Genuine epiphany for me. Totally. And I'm sure that it
will have an impact on what I do, you know,
community wise, but also what I do work wise. Because
for me, a huge part of my work is developing community.
I don't know what that looks like yet, but I
know that that's important because I know that there is
that element of finding like minded souls. To share and

(53:11):
feel validated and. Because I spoke to someone recently who
had tried to slow down. And she said it was
the loneliest experience of her life because no one else
around her.

S3 (53:24):
Was doing the same.

S1 (53:25):
Would or could or wanted to or saw the value
in it.

S7 (53:28):
Yeah.

S1 (53:29):
So for me, that's part of the reason why the
crazy this is to be able to create that sense
of belonging. You are not the lone weirdo out there.

S5 (53:38):
Mm hmm.

S7 (53:40):
But yeah, thank you to Stephanie for that original comment.

S1 (53:43):
It's just quite literally.

S7 (53:45):
Blown my mind.

S2 (53:47):
Before we go, do you want to talk about a
few things? How's your 1% going?

S7 (53:53):
It's. Yeah.

S1 (53:56):
I think when I first started, I thought it would
be a neater experiment than it is.

S7 (54:01):
Hallelujah. Yeah. Yeah.

S1 (54:02):
I thought that it would be like, Here's my 15
minutes a day of health, here's my 15 minutes a
day or my hour and a half a week of X,
Y and Z, and I can tick those boxes and go.
I am improving.

S7 (54:13):
Things by.

S1 (54:13):
1%, and that would have completed my experiment for the
year perfectly.

S7 (54:19):
Well.

S1 (54:20):
And there are days where that still exists, but it's
more so I think I'm really starting to shift my
focus into all of the tiny ways that I am
choosing to show up just that little bit extra in
life every day.

S7 (54:33):
And I really like it. Like, I really like it. It's,
you know, taking.

S1 (54:37):
The extra minute to send a text message. When I
think of someone, let them know I think of them.

S7 (54:43):
That's not changing anything quantifiably. Ever. You'll never be able
to measure.

S1 (54:49):
The impact that that has or doesn't have in life.
But we don't know.

S7 (54:55):
We don't know how much of an.

S1 (54:57):
Impact that text message.

S7 (54:59):
Like that, that little dopamine.

S1 (55:01):
Hit that I got, you know, that.

S7 (55:02):
Serotonin boost, that.

S1 (55:03):
That connection. I don't know all of those happy hormones
or happiness brain neurotransmitters, um, how that then impacted my
choices and behavior for the following day.

S7 (55:14):
How that.

S1 (55:15):
Impacted my sense of feeling like I belong in a
community because I'm down at the coffee shop and I
see my friend and we've got that slightly, you know,
stronger bond because I sent her that message.

S7 (55:25):
Like, Yeah.

S1 (55:26):
It's all of.

S7 (55:27):
Those invisible threads. That I see as.

S1 (55:33):
My one percent's. And it's been really interesting to most
mornings I get up and I write in my logbook
from the day before, and I'm just trying to keep
a track of all of those tiny little choices that
I made that might have been slightly different or slightly elevated.

S7 (55:49):
To what I would.

S1 (55:49):
Normally have done if I was just sitting in my
default mode.

S7 (55:55):
And it's really cool to see.

S1 (55:58):
Certain threads continue to pop up. Community relationships connection are
big for me at the moment, which is interesting because
I would say that that's probably one of my weaker spots.

S7 (56:10):
Yeah.

S1 (56:11):
So it's interesting that without any, any.

S7 (56:16):
Um.

S1 (56:17):
Like overt effort spoken ahead of time that keeps coming up.

S7 (56:23):
Yeah. What about you?

S2 (56:26):
Oh, my six day workweek is going great.

S7 (56:31):
Um, really.

S6 (56:31):
Struggled with the four day workweek. Oh, it feels.

S2 (56:36):
Like a pipe dream. Hey, I just haven't. I haven't
set it up in a way that, um. Is doable
at the moment, and I'm talking about the way that
I've set up my work arrangements and I can't see
that changing for the next sort of, say, six months. But.

(56:56):
Come back to me in December. And I hope to
have put in a better framework for what a four
day work week looks like. It's I know I said
to it, I said I started in April and it's hard.

S3 (57:10):
Oh yeah.

S2 (57:10):
For being self-employed and working with a number of clients.
It's just it's really hard. Coupled with my inability to
say no.

S7 (57:19):
It's interesting, though. So like, if you go back to that.

S1 (57:22):
Episode of the of the Pod where we spoke at
length about the four day workweek.

S7 (57:26):
Everyone to.

S1 (57:28):
The letter said and these were none of them were
self-employed like small business owners, these people, they.

S3 (57:33):
Trialled it and they trialled.

S7 (57:35):
It. They like quite a number of people said.

S1 (57:38):
Something to the effect of it was six months of
six day weeks in order to set up a four
day week, you know, and you're trying to make all
of these.

S7 (57:47):
Changes what I'm doing in your own and.

S1 (57:49):
You're in that process now.

S7 (57:51):
So the fact that you know. You're frustrated and you're
aware of what you're.

S1 (57:56):
Up against means that you're your head's in that space.
It's just the logistics of it that are.

S3 (58:02):
Yeah, it's, you know, it's meh.

S2 (58:04):
And it feels further away than it did when when
I spoke about it in February.

S3 (58:09):
March.

S7 (58:09):
February, March, we were living.

S1 (58:10):
In the afterglow of the New Year.

S3 (58:13):
You know, it's still the beginning.

S2 (58:14):
Of the year, isn't.

S6 (58:15):
It?

S5 (58:15):
I'm sorry to tell you, but it's not.

S2 (58:18):
It's crazy. She's just absolutely nuts. So, yeah, it's it's
a work in progress and not much to update on,
on a positive sense. But I'm in the trenches. You know,
I'm going through the process and trying to trying to
trying to still build out what that looks like on
a practical sense. And I've had like a lot of
people say, you know, someone I work really close with.

(58:41):
We work on a number of clients together. And Andy
said to me, he's like, I'm not going to bother
you on a Friday because that's your So I'm like,
you know, that's not like just that single conversation has
given me sort of hope, right? That it can be done,
but just not now in the way that I'm romanticised

(59:04):
about it. Back in in in February.

S3 (59:06):
Yeah.

S7 (59:06):
And that's the other thing, right?

S1 (59:07):
The reality of it is always going to be vastly
different to our dreams.

S7 (59:13):
Yeah, exactly.

S2 (59:15):
Before we go, you want to talk about rhythms?

S7 (59:18):
Oh, yeah. Really? Briefly.

S1 (59:20):
I'm actually running a Rhythms mini retreat over on the
tortoise for all paying subscribers. It starts on the 21st
of May.

S7 (59:30):
Just runs for two weeks. And it's really just.

S1 (59:33):
Taking you through the process.

S7 (59:36):
Of, I guess.

S1 (59:37):
What I mean when I talk about.

S7 (59:39):
Creating.

S1 (59:39):
Rhythms, why it's important, how to develop your own rhythms
for your morning, your evening, perhaps your weeks, seasonal rhythms.
And it's just a hands on practical kind of two
part workshop retreat.

S7 (59:56):
That I'd love.

S1 (59:57):
For people to come.

S7 (59:58):
And take part.

S1 (59:59):
In. If you're listening to this after the 21st of May,
it's going to be there available for or or paying
subs over on the tortoise. And similarly, we'll probably reflect
on a previous workshop that I ran a few months ago,
all about values, where I took people through the process

(01:00:21):
of identifying their personal values and looking at how we
can use them to make decisions and, you know, move
forward through these periods of transition and. Change, you know,
your values kind of front and center. It's something that
you and I have done and probably need to do again,
to be perfectly honest.

S3 (01:00:41):
Oh, totally. Yeah, it's a good idea.

S7 (01:00:43):
Yeah. But I mean, head over to the tortoise. I
publish a letter every Thursday or Friday every week that
is freely available to everyone.

S1 (01:00:52):
The podcast lives over there.

S7 (01:00:54):
And then there's the, you know, quarterly.

S1 (01:00:56):
Workshops and retreats.

S7 (01:00:58):
For paying subscribers. If you wanted to support the podcast
and my work in that way.

S2 (01:01:04):
Really, again, as we said at the top of the show,
I really appreciate all the comments, reviews, ratings. Absolutely. Everyone's
left a bit of an insight into my personality. It
you're not posting on it in on LinkedIn as much.
Not nearly as much in your LinkedIn.

S6 (01:01:19):
Sorry, what did I say? LinkedIn? I don't know. Instagram.

S7 (01:01:23):
Yeah. No, once a month.

S3 (01:01:25):
Once a month.

S2 (01:01:26):
And so I used to like going on and seeing
people's reactions to episodes. But you know, when you used
to do one per episode, right, Like, and like, go on.
And you.

S14 (01:01:35):
Know. I missed that interaction.

S6 (01:01:38):
Sorry. No, not at all.

S2 (01:01:42):
But I. That's why I think I'm more even more
appreciative of people that are living.

S7 (01:01:47):
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you, everyone.

S1 (01:01:50):
Thank you for listening. I hope you have a wonderful week.
And until we are.

S7 (01:01:54):
Next in your ears, take good care.