February 26, 2025 • 54 mins
Former evangelical Christian and pastor's son Caleb Ward continues his story of growing up in evangelical culture in the early 2000s. We discuss some of the touchstones of his youth including Heritage USA (Disneyland for Christians) and Christian rock event Creation Festival, as well as his fear of losing his virginity before marriage, what hell to meant to him (and Lola and Meagan) growing up, how his dad was an example of healthy church leadership, how his parents were ostracized when they left the church, and what solidified his decision to leave evangelical Christianity
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Trust me, Trust trust Me.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
I'm like a squat person.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I've never lied to you. If you think.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to
trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation
from two Christian rock band groupies who've actually experienced it.
A Lola Blanc and I'm making Elizabeth and Today's part
two of our interview with Caleb Ward, my friend and
former evangelical Christian and pastor's son. So Caleb wasn't in
(00:51):
a strict cult per se, as you might have learned
last week, but talking to him offers a window into
evangelical culture in the early two thousands that we thought
would be relatable for many of our listeners. This week,
we're going to talk about some of the cultural touchstones
of his youth, including heritage USA, which was basically Disneyland
for Christians and Christian rock bands, plus his fear of
losing his virginity before marriage and what hell meant to
(01:12):
each of us growing up.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
We'll talk more about how healthy church leadership can exist
and how his dad was an example of that, how
his parents were ostracized when they left the church, and
what solidified his decision to leave Evangelical Christianity.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Meghan is a little sick today.
Speaker 6 (01:29):
I am. Can you tell? Can you tell?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Don't worry? She's not sick in the interview itself.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
No, no, my voice will only be like those for
a few more seconds, friends, I.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Promise, all right. Well before we get into it with Caleb,
who is a delight, it's a nice break from some
of the very dark things happening in our country and
world at the moment. Megan, are you able to verbalize
your culturest thing of the week?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Mine's very current. It takes us back to nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 7 (01:59):
Oh okay, So in my like nightquill induced fever fever dream,
I watched this entire Netflix Son of Sam documentary Have
you seen this yet?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No? Tell me?
Speaker 7 (02:14):
So?
Speaker 5 (02:14):
It was just following those this horrific serial killer in
New York City in the seventies and then connected it
all to this cult called the Process that was also
operating near where Charles Manson was located. And the kind
of takeaway is that it might have had branches into
(02:37):
all of these offshoot killing spree people. So interesting watch,
really really violent and disgusting. All of them were like
obsessed with killing dogs, and now the Process has become
a dog rescue, which.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
I'm so confused about. Whoa.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
So you know, it's a dark little place that I
wouldn't recommend unless you happen to be of Nike Will.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
But it is very.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Interesting and I should probably watch it again because I
don't fully remember it, but I did take notes and
that's and that's what happened. So uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I want your Nike Will induced cultius thing every week,
like sort of the vague impressions of things.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, but you guys, that's really scary, So you know,
make a.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Note of that for dinner conversations. What about you? What
about you, lolo? What's your cultist thing?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, as always, it's the country, but the news, the news,
the news, the news. I'm I'm gonna not talk too
much about it.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
This week.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I'm trying to restrain myself from being two dooms day
every single week, but it's pretty bad. What I will
talk about is an article that came out actually last
year about a study that came out that showed that
half of the Americans don't know the difference between a
fact and an opinion. What so there was the person
(04:07):
who wrote this article teaches a class called Assumptions Challenge,
and they you know, he's talking about how he assumed
that his students would know the difference. But researchers at
the University of Illinois, Orbana Champagne am I saying that right,
asked participants to categorize twelve statements about current events as
facts or opinions. Forty five point seven percent could do
(04:28):
that correctly, no more than half the time. So it's like,
you know, a fact would be like there are four
hundred and seventy five people living in this town, and
an opinion would be.
Speaker 6 (04:42):
Warm weathers better than cold, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yes, And obviously, like in our current media landscape, it
can make it very difficult because people are sort of
they can present the same information in a completely different
way and make it sound like a fact. So I
do understand why that would be difficult for people right now,
especially when so much much of our information comes from
social media, and then the distrust has been sown in,
(05:04):
you know, sort of like legacy media, and oftentimes for
a good reason, so it can be really hard to navigate.
But half of Americans not knowing, like the difference between
a fact statement and an opinion statement is really staggering.
I thought, yeah, it's interesting. I I it makes sense
to me that we are where we are. But I
don't even really know what my takeaway is other than
(05:26):
that this feels like something that's really important to me
to talk about and try to help spread awareness about,
like how language can create bias in our minds and
how it's so important to look underneath that and like
look at the actions themselves instead of just what people
are saying about it, and you know, go to the
source material and see what it is. We should probably
(05:49):
just do another episode on.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
And it sounds like an episode.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Yeah, so I like interrupted your facts and just said
cold is no?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
That was good? That was good? That was how full
I was blanking. So yeah, anyway, so that's my takeaway,
and I think it's probably time to have some more
experts on the show because it's been a minute and
there's so much to navigate right now can be so challenging,
and that's my cultis thing perfect.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Well, shall we talk to Caleb.
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(07:42):
One of the things you kind of mentioned when we
talked prior to today was how you would get these
strong feelings in church and around church, and I like,
I don't know how you couldn't given how heightened these
rituals are. How do you think that shaped your young mind?
Speaker 8 (08:04):
Well, like I was saying, if it's very performative at
times and like very theatrical, which is why I think
I like leaned into the arts, and like I did
a lot of like musicals and plays, just like performance
was like just felt like every day right that heightened state.
Like I had a really interesting situation when I was
(08:26):
in college and I like went to a concert. I
couldn't tell you who I was seeing.
Speaker 6 (08:30):
It was probably no.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
No.
Speaker 8 (08:33):
This was after after I wish I had have seen
Jars of Clay. They were bangers. Jars of Clay, ohc
Super Tones, Newsboys. Oh I could keep going GC talk.
Uh oh yeah, I have to talk about Creation Fest
at some point too.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That just like that brought
back a flood of memories.
Speaker 8 (08:56):
I but to answer your question, like, it's, uh, it's
such a streaming because like I can like take myself
there like mentally, like I can find myself back in
that place of like it feeling so real at the time,
like like people laying hands on me, like speaking in
tongues like I would speak in tongues, you know, hearing
a prophetic word over me, playing drums and like really
(09:18):
feeling the emotion. But it's like that's it's performance, it's music,
it's emotion. Like that, it just felt like a trick.
When I finally look back on it, I was like
I was like tricking myself or I was being tricked.
It felt like like I was being sort of like
manipulated in some way to feel a certain way. And like, yeah,
there were some like youth pastors or other pastors would
really like push you into it, like you've gotta feel
(09:40):
this and you're gonna feel this. And like I saw
that happen to so many people who eventually like left
the church, I think because they just probably started to
feel almost like.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Bullied in some way, right, you know.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
That was a big thing which I mentioned at the top,
is like when people would leave, like they would just
disappear basically, you know, like it was like they had
died and like we didn't speak to them, and how
they left or they're off the path or they're off
the path.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You know. I mean I've talked about this on here before.
You know, in Mormonism, you know, you feel the spirit
and you're supposed to bear your testimony, which is a
much quieter version of what you're talking about, because it's this,
it's I'd like to bear my testimony that I know
this church is true, and I know Joseph Smith was
a real prophet or was a prophet? Is the prophet?
I don't fucking know. I don't remember now. And you know,
(10:27):
people would start crying and I went to e f Y,
which is like teenager camp for Mormons, and all these
kids would be going up and crying, and I was like,
what is.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Wrong with you? They're like why am I not feeling this?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes? And I like and I have to imagine the
people who were more prone to crying probably are more
prone to crying at concerts too, or in TV shows.
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
That's what That's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 8 (10:50):
It was like I went to a concert in college
and like became very emotional, and I was like, that's
what this is, right, And like when I really cracked
that code, I was like, oh my god, that's all
this is.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's just like it's like I.
Speaker 8 (11:03):
Just love music, like yeah, yeah, just like feel like
or like this sort of like herd mentality like can
really suck you in. Like if you start crying and
you start crying, like I'm probably gonna start crying, just
just the.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Way people yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
You know scene ever where they.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Just yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 8 (11:24):
It's so easy to like get caught up in that
because if you're like even like remotely tapped into like
your emotional self and like your emotional well being, I
think it's really easy to.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Get caught up in that.
Speaker 8 (11:35):
Yeah, And that just like cracking that code because like
even now, like my wife and I were back home
for Christmas in Florida and my grandmother, who is ninety,
really wanted to take us to her churches. Whire's way
more traditional like Baptists, very very Southern Baptist, just like
you know, simple like not speaking and talking about that.
(11:58):
She wants us to go see her Christmas light show,
Like they had this crazy Christmas light show on the
outside of the building that would.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Like run every hour on the hour.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Well, and I went and like I kind of had
a moment where like I felt like very emotional. It's
just sort of like hearing all these like words over
and over again, or like hearing the story of like Jesus,
like it just like taps into something that like is
still like locked away somewhere deep in my psyche.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah. One of the things that I think is so
important for I wish more of society understood was that
any basically any group in any church can create a
heightened emotional experience in you. And having a heightened emotional
experience is not equal to the teachings being true or
the leader being the real prophet, absolutely, because there are
(12:43):
a million ways to produce that state.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And I went on to a Tony Robbins seminar and
walked across Hot coals because everybody was shouting the same
word altogether.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean, of course that'd make you feel. I was like,
like something insane is happening.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
Right across the coles. Yeah, wow, God is not that
is not doing that?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
That's worse. I always thought that Tony Robbins hot coal
thing was a rumor. I didn't realize it was.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
It was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And how were your feet after?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I was totally fine. But the woman behind me got
like burnt a little. They had an ambulance what yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
you can like actually get very burnt.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But well they're hot cold.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
But I do think you can get your mind into
a state.
Speaker 8 (13:25):
Yeah that well that's a very that's a that's a
very old yeah, like tradition or spoken Yeah. I don't
know where it comes from, but like that's something I
feel like. It's essentially it's like endurance and it's sort
of like building your body.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Flame and it's really fast.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
You're not going to get like you think if.
Speaker 8 (13:46):
I grab a hot pot really quickly, like I'm probably
not going to get thirders.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
Yeah, this was this was a long walk. This was
a long little walk. But the chanting and.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
The eighteen hour day of him screaming at us really
had wow, had me ready to go out?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (14:03):
Yeah, So that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And for some groups it's like meditation for hours, and
for some groups it's like your group whorreth. This is
very outward, very you know, loud sort of worship, and
it takes many different forms, but I think the common
denominator is that like members are like, well, I wouldn't
feel this strongly if it wasn't true, and it's like no,
(14:25):
I mean, you could feel this strongly pretty much anywhere.
When we had a guest on who you know, was
like a one direction stand. Fans will experience the same
thing in that the.
Speaker 8 (14:36):
Same thing with like girls crying when the Beatles showed up. Right,
it's the same thing, right.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You know, And I think that can be really hard,
hard pill to swallow because it's so you know, you
want there to be magic in life. And I don't
know about you, but for me, like after I found
out that my profit was not a real profit and
was just a con man, I had believed that I
was special and like life had this very like big importance,
(15:01):
you know, because I was like one of the chosen,
one of literally like the two chosen people on the planet.
So after sort of exiting that, life just seemed so
much more boring, and I was like, wait, but that's
but that was, but that was more exciting.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Hard to reckon with the idea that you're not special
or this thing that you've been told for your entire
life might be a croc or might be based in
uh selfishness or you know, foolish desires. Like that's really
hard to reckon with, you know, because it's like it's
your life, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, I mean, and I mean I think that's one
of the reasons I turned to entertainment because I was like, no,
I will be special, going to be up the pop star.
Speaker 8 (15:49):
Yeah, it's good that you leaned into an industry that's
incredibly stable and really respects you and your identity on.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The chaos, It's yeah, I don't know that. That was
one of the things about your story that sort of
stuck with me the most because it wasn't just the services. Also,
like you were going to Heritage USA, which is Disneyland
for Christians.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Well, I was going to say that me being like
a little bit on the spectrum I think protected me
sometimes from things I think me being spectrumy protected me
from a lot of the things that y'all are talking about,
because I never really I know when other people are
feeling emotion.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
I feel very strong emotion.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I'm very sensitive, but not necessarily when I'm supposed to,
And if other people around me are feeling something, I
almost like am like, oh I don't want to feel it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Oh wow, Well, I mean I wasn't feeling what they
were feeling. I just felt the pressure to fit in,
but I didn't actually understand it.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 8 (16:50):
Maybe I'm that like it's almost like, okay, the only
way I can describe it. Maybe you've experienced this is like,
have you ever been at a like a restaurant with
like ten people and you're talking to like one person
and eight other people are talking about something, and all
of a sudden they burst into laughter.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Right, and you didn't hear it. It's almost like jarring.
Speaker 8 (17:10):
It like will like hurt my ears, and it like
scares me because it's like I'm not a part of
the thing, right.
Speaker 6 (17:16):
Yeah, No, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay, I feel
that a lot.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, and they.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Like double down on it.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Not being funny and look at them and I'm like, Okay,
it's not it's not that like I'm not a part
of the joke.
Speaker 8 (17:30):
It's like I didn't see that. It's like somebody like
blaring an airhorn on your face.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Well, I also just hate when people make noise, so that.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Everybody be quiet, no.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
One emote in any capacity towards Lola.
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Speaker 2 (20:09):
Tell us about Yeah, hair did USA and the Creationfest.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It's a real thing. So Jim and Tammy Faye Baker Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:19):
Yes, are they both okay? Yeah? I really love the
eyes of Tammy Fay. I loved the Michael Schowalastine. I
feel like it like and they talk a lot about
here did u sa in that there's a section that's
sort of all about it, So if you want to
kind of like get an idea of what it looked like,
(20:40):
it was basically, yeah, like Disneyland for Christians. It was
a hotel, it was a shopping complex, it was a
conference center. It was a water park. There was a
castle that was like an arcade. It's gone now, it's
like not even like the like there's no rubble. I
think it's like a parking lot.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't even know.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
It was on the board of North and South Carolina
and it was basically like this center where like we
would come and go to go to conferences or like
youth trips or things like that, and we mostly went
when we were in Baltimore because it was it was
closed down in the nineties for I think, like tax fraud.
(21:19):
And they talked a lot about how there's an article
online you can read like somebody used to work there
that like they went back like a few months later,
and it looked like everybody had been like raptured. Like
it was like sandwiches were half eaten, like chairs were pulled.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Out, but it was like everybody.
Speaker 8 (21:33):
It was like somebody walked in one day and went
like okay, everybody out, and like that was a beautiful.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
And ire ironic ending.
Speaker 8 (21:40):
So this was a place we would go, we would
take like youth trips, like this is something I went
to when I was when I was very little. Obviously
this was born in ninety one, and it was this
place where like it was just like this like haven
for people sort of in that like evangelical mentality where
(22:01):
they would come and see like famous you know pastors
come and preach, you know, like nowadays, it would be
like the Joel Osteins of the world, you know, or
like TD Jakes, or you'd go see Kirk Franklin perform.
You know, a lot of these guys who are like
these mega church you know, influencers. That's a whole other
(22:22):
can of worms. And it was so wild. But like
I went back when I was in college. I was
dating a girl who grew up in Charlotte, and like
we went there for like Thanksgiving, I think, and I
was like.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I had completely forgottenbout her to USA.
Speaker 8 (22:38):
I'd like buried it like in my psyche somewhere, and
we went that. She was like, oh, you got to
see this abandoned amusement park and I was like, oh, sick.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That sounds awesome, like a band of music park.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
She's like, yeah, it's right on the border, like it's
all fenced up, but we gotta go and like check
it out.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And I was like cool.
Speaker 8 (22:55):
And I went and it was like like somebody had
like plugged a USB in my head. That was like
here's all those memories and it was like I've been
here before Oh my god, this is the castle, and
there's the water park, and there's the center, and like
there's the the atrium where the Amphitheater was where people
would put on like passion plays and things like that.
It was insane and it's just this decrepit old building.
(23:17):
I think they demolished it like six months later, so
I got to see it like right before. It's crazy.
You can find it on YouTube, like there's like there's
like old seminar videos and you can kind of like
tour through.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
There's like an ad for it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
It's it's wild, but it was a it was a
theme park for Christians.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
It was all based in Christianity. It was all based
in like evangelical Christianity. So it was like a safe
place to come as a Christian where you don't have
to deal with all those like worldly trappings of Disney
World or King's Dominion or Universal Studio.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
I think was there a mouse of any sort?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Was there?
Speaker 8 (23:48):
I don't think they had a man. I don't remember
if they had a mascot.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I bet they did. Think it was.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Walking around and like Mary's walking around or would that
be now?
Speaker 8 (24:00):
I do remember I do remember seeing like there were
people like dressed as wise men and shepherds and things
like that that would look kind of like wander around.
I do remember that. Yeah, I put your picture with you.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Know, I'm not like see a guy on a day,
I'm a wise man at heritage.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
Well there is there is still an experience called the
Holy Land Experience that's in Orlando, Florida, and it is
essentially as though you have stepped into Jerusalem. Whoa, yeah,
I can't imagine what the vibe is like there right now.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yah.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, I was gonna talk about Creation Fest.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, to tell his creation pest.
Speaker 8 (24:37):
So okay, So creation Fest I have so many more
memories of because this is something I did as like
a teenager. Creation Fest. It's still around, oh god, but yeah,
I think it's a lot smaller now, but it was.
It took place in Pennsylvania on a farm in Pennsylvania.
It started in the eighties and it was a three
(24:58):
or four four day music festival and there were like
three stages and like the Newsboys and switch Foot and
DC Talk and.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Oh my god, I'm trying to remember all the other bands.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
There was a the main stage and then there was
the fringe stage, and like the fringe stages where like
Pod played, you know, and like Family Force five do
not look them up, good lord.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Oh god. It's like techno rock. Uh yeah and uh and.
Speaker 8 (25:31):
Like it was like this three four day festival where
like you know, young people would call it was like
all youth groups from like all over all over the world.
Really was hundreds of thousands of people would come to
this place. There was an incredible essay called Upon This
Rock written by John Jeremiah Sullivan. It's in a book
of essays called Pulped. He's an incredible essayist. He has
(25:52):
written a lot for like GQ, and he wrote a
book or he wrote an essay called Upon This Rock
that is about him going to Creation Fest and like
getting in really tight with like a group of like bikers,
like reformed biker gangs. And there was this like mountain
that you could climb up and you could see you know,
all of the all of you know, the the festival grounds.
(26:13):
But it was like a camping festiv It was like
Bonaou for Christians, and like we would go and like
you would hear you know, you would hear church services
and there'd be youth services, but it was just like
a bunch of like horny teenagers intents right of which
I did not get to take place in any of
that because I was so fearful of losing my virginity
until I was married, because that was so ingrained in me.
(26:37):
But like yeah, they were just like like that was
the thing is, like I have a lot of like fun,
fond memories m that oftentimes can get like overshadowed by
like the reality of what was happening when I would
come back.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
It's so much cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Like I had such an idyllic childhood but also so
terrifying and adults looking in my face and being.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Like you're probably going to hell, oh God, Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, ah something. You have to deal with it.
Speaker 8 (27:03):
Same, Like I like I had an incredible childhood. My
parents are incredible. We're very close. They understand sort of
like where I am and like my beliefs, and like
we have a very open, honest dialogue. They have, like
really since they left the church six years ago, they've
really like a lot of stuff has happened since then
that they've really just sort of like softened about a
(27:25):
lot of things. They still believe very much what they
believe but like I think that leaving the church was
so good for them in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, you're so like your dad was a pastor, and
I just want to like mention that, like you can
be a religious leader and not be a bad person. Yeah,
like you like it sounds like your dad was an
example maybe of like a healthy of healthy leadership.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Yeah, he really really just wanted to like help people.
He would do a lot of like couples couples like
not their be but like I guess couples therapy, couple's counseling.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
That was it. Thank you.
Speaker 8 (28:04):
You do a lot of like couples counseling and like
one on one they my parents took in people that
would like that would stay with them for like months
and then like just like disappear. Like people are like
recovering addicts or like single mothers or like you know,
people that just like they just genuinely wanted to help.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
You know, I still do a lot of people are
like that. Like it's not about hating hating on Christianity
as much as the you know, current administration would like
to think that Christianity is under attack. It's like there
is such thing as healthy leadership. But what that looks
like is is when there isn't an extreme degree of control,
(28:42):
when there isn't an extreme degree of ostracization, and people
are allowed to essentially be themselves and worship in the
way that they want to worship, right, Like.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Like that's what it should be about.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, I like looking back now, like what would you
say are the evangelical community maybe in general, because you
kind of were a part of that whole world, Like
what are the parts of it that you think are
maybe not the healthiest?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
The parts that are like not the healthiest?
Speaker 8 (29:11):
Is sort of this ostracization hard yeah, of of of
groups for believing differently or feeling a certain way or
like having shifting beliefs. It's like it's a very organic thing,
you know, belief in general, whatever you believe in, whatever
you believe in or don't believe in, Like it's a
very organic thing something that like I feel like I'm
(29:33):
constantly sort of like battling with or trying to understand
or stepping away from and coming back to.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It's just like what do I believe in? Like what
do I don't? What do I not believe in?
Speaker 8 (29:41):
I would consider myself like a very strong agnostic where
I'm like, I don't have the answers. I barely understand
how mirrors work, Like I'm not going to question the
existence of the universe, like I I, you know, I
barely understand that even And so I think that, like,
the really terrible thing is this like ostracizing of people,
because it is so unhealthy and it's so unfair and
(30:05):
it's really vicious.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
I don't speak to.
Speaker 8 (30:09):
Ninety percent of the people that I knew for the
first eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Of my life, like they're just.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Gone because you left and I left.
Speaker 8 (30:19):
And then once my parents left, it was a really
awful situation where my father handed the church down to
a younger pastor and they were essentially just ostracized and
as though like they hadn't given the last you know,
thirteen years or gosh, no more than that seventeen years
(30:40):
of their life to that church, and that congregation just.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Like their community just disappeared.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
Yeah, was he merely retiring or did he find it?
Speaker 8 (30:49):
My dad has dealt with like my dad has dealt
with like health issues for most of his life, and like,
basically there was a really horrible hurricane that came through
in twenty nineteen and he had handed the church over
right before that, and he told me, you know, shortly
after that, he was like, if I'd have still been
pastoring the church when that came through, I think it
would have killed me just because how much you had
(31:12):
to deal with.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
And so like I'm really thankful for that. But when
they when they stepped down.
Speaker 8 (31:18):
It's a thing that like I don't understand because I
just have a hard time wrapping my head around like
how you could have somebody in your life for that
long and they decided to do something for their own
health and well being, right, And it's as though like
they've slighted you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And that's they felt betrayed that he didn't want to
lead anymore. Was he still going to be a member?
Speaker 8 (31:42):
Yeah, like he was still a member, but like they
started to feel unwelcome and that's why they left. They
just they were they left. They still lived in the
town for for several years before they moved back to
Florida where they are now. But like they were, I
mean they're like ghosts. M And my mom went through
breast cancer essentially like on her own.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
My dad.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
That's so sad, and I have a lot of like
anger towards this community still that I'm trying to work
through and I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure
it out, but I still hold onto a lot of anger.
Speaker 8 (32:24):
And my parents were angry and not angry. They were
very disappointed in how that all went down when they
left for a very long time, and they've really grown
past it to like really let a lot of that go.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
They're so good at that, and like I am not.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, what is your parents protected?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Way more than that.
Speaker 8 (32:44):
It's way more that than it is even the even
like the religious aspect.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, those are my parents. You're like you fuckers. My
mom had to deal with that by herself. You were
her community.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah disappeared.
Speaker 7 (32:56):
Wow.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
Yeah there have been some there have been, and there
have been a handful who have been like really really
really really good to them and like have really stuck
with them as friends. But I'd say, like, but like
ninety ninety five percent of the congregation just overnight gone.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Ugh.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, it's so hard as someone you know, I I'm
not anti religion, but I am very skeptical of most religions,
but and in particular, like this sort of brand of
Christianity that purports to be about worshiping or following, you know,
following Christ.
Speaker 8 (33:30):
It's also about building community and spreading the word and
like bringing in and being kind.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Jesus's message was right.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And so many of these churches, like a lot of
the megachurches that are making a lot of many like
there's primary messages are like that's you know, that's the
opposite of what Jesus is talking about, right, you know,
that's like actually like yeah, hate, that's hate, yeah yeah.
Or you know, discriminating like prioritizing money and wealth. It's
(34:01):
like that's literally the.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Operation of racism. It's just so utterly so un Christian,
so un Christian. It's so and even as like a
two year old, I could see that and like almost weird.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
Yeah, you know, only because it's like at the top
of my brain because I was listening to it on
the way over. I was listening to this, like I
was telling I was listening to this like playlist that
I had put together of like oh my god, what
were the like late nineties, early two thousands, just.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Like Christian pop bangers. And there's a quote at.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
The beginning of there's a really famous song called Jesus Freak.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Have you ever heard this song? Okay, it's DC Talk
Jesus Freak from like ninety.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Six, elevating DC Talk's status right now because I had
never heard of this band.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
What Toby mac lead singer DC Talk.
Speaker 8 (34:47):
So at the beginning of the song, there's a quote
and it's something to the degree of the greatest cause
of atheism in the world is Christians. He says, it's
like a quarter of the beginning. And when I heard
that again this morning. This is a song I've heard
probably one hundred thousand times, like when I was a kid,
(35:09):
and like I heard that this morning for the first time,
and I was like, that's at.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
The beginning of that, Like that's so true.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's interesting. They were Christians, Yeah, but.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
They're just saying like the shitty Christian.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
Right, Like that's the thing is Like, the one of
the biggest reasons why I stepped away from Christianity was
the people.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, one of the biggest reasons.
Speaker 6 (35:30):
Yeah, judgmental little memis.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What what I don't understand is was there something about
this church in particular that was like you have to
be at this one, like if you go to a
different one.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Yeah, there was there was something wherein like they had
all felt like they had kind of tapped into a
source that it was like uncharted waters, like we're all
discovering this together, Like we're all Indiana Jones and we're
like carving out this this uh, this artifact, and we're
going to figure it out together. Like this is new,
this is new new, you know, this isn't like that
(36:03):
same old, same old, Like we're figuring this out together.
It was like discovering a new belief system like within
evangelical Christianity. Yes, that was at the core of this,
Like you got to be here because I'm picking up
on something that nobody else.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Is picking up on.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
Yeah, so jumping ship was like really yeah, taking.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Like wow, you really like it really gave up really
abandoned shit making people.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
We're figuring this out, like I'm mad. Yeah, I get that.
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Speaker 2 (37:40):
What was the thing for you that really like solidified, Like, Okay,
I'm not interested in this religion.
Speaker 8 (37:47):
I think it started, you know, after high school, really
pretty deeply, where I just started to realize that that
connection that I felt like I had had had for
a very long time was based in artifice, and it
was more this story that I've been telling myself for
(38:08):
a long time as opposed to like because as soon
as I took a step back and went what do
I actually believe in?
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It was a pretty short list.
Speaker 8 (38:17):
And I and I really started to read the Bible
and really started to kind of research and and look
at it from like an objective perspective and not from
like a not from like a you know, a studying
for the advancement. It was more like I want to
look at this objectively, like this story just like doesn't
even make sense and it's so contradictory at times. And
I was like, but in the Christian faith, like the
(38:40):
Bible is concrete, like there are no variations, Like it
is what it is, what it is, you know, Old Testament,
New Testament, Like no no variation, It's all true. And
I was like, but is it? And I just really
started to like question that for a very long time.
And it was sort of like it was It wasn't
like it wasn't an overnight thing for me, you know,
(39:03):
it was it was several years of just like learning
more about the universe and learning more about like I
just didn't want to spend my whole life focusing on
like the next thing, and I wanted to invest in
like the people currently because I saw so much of
that when I was younger, of people being sort of
slighted or or disappearing from our lives, and I didn't
(39:25):
want that to happen. I wanted to be like a
positive energy. And I think that that's kind of what
I really sort of like gleaned to Hm.
Speaker 6 (39:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
What I was going to ask is, do you have
any stuff that's like remaining you know, like I still
kind of have.
Speaker 6 (39:39):
Like a fear of how.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Oh for sure?
Speaker 6 (39:42):
Really?
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 8 (39:44):
So my wife and I were like just goofing off
of the house a few weeks ago, and she was
like trying to do a bit with me, and she
was like, she was like, what's your greatest fear, like
trying to get me to say, like losing you, and
I just went, I just went that hell's real and
I've been wrong all the time.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
And she was like, you're supposed to say losing me?
Speaker 8 (40:08):
Yeah too, also that, but I was like, yeah, that's
my biggest fears.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I was like, oh, what if I'm what if I'm wrong?
Speaker 8 (40:15):
Like what if I've just like built this insular mentality
much like Christianity. It's like, how do you know, Like,
like I really struggle with that hell less so because
like hell.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Was Hell wasn't like a big thing that was sort.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Of preached lucky, you're so lucky.
Speaker 6 (40:35):
Yeah, I don't mean to brag.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I don't think I'm going but no, like that wasn't
like a big thing. It was.
Speaker 8 (40:44):
It was kind of a thing when I was when
I was younger, when we were in Baltimore at Velvet
or Baptist Church, like, but it really started to kind
of go away. It was less about this like afterlife
thing and it was more about like you know, like
communing and being more in touch you know, currently, Like
it wasn't like you're going to hell. You're on how
you're going to hell, you know, not fire and brimstone. Yeah,
but like that's that's definitely something that I hold on to.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Is like, oh but what yeah, I had that for
a while. I don't anymore.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Really, Yeah, how'd you get rid of it?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
But I also, you know, in Mormonism, hall isn't really
there's not really a traditional but it does like it
almost didn't matter because I thought sex was such a
big sin that I still thought that I like basically
thought I was going to hell, which is so weird
because it's like, oh yeah, it's just the lowest tier
of heaven. But the lowest tier of heaven means you
don't get to like be with your family in the afterlife. Yeah,
so it might as well be you know what I mean.
Speaker 8 (41:37):
That's the interesting thing that like, I'm so curious about
your experience with this is because like like there weren't
like it was more organic to us there. There weren't
like strict systems of like this part of heaven and
then this part of heaven. It was like like when
I would ask when I would ask somebody in the church,
or I'd ask my dad or I'd ask my mom,
like what does heaven even mean? They would describe it
(41:58):
as like being permanently in the presence of God, And
I was.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Like, the fuck does that mean? Right? Like could you
be more specific? Like is there a buildings, a planet?
Speaker 6 (42:09):
Right?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Right?
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (42:10):
Because I didn't have that. So I'm like even the
lack of structure was confusing.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well, I'm sure and the two by two's heaven was
going to just be a never ending church service, Oh
my God, like hell, extremely boring, but Also it was
like you're not going to have a body and you're
not going to know your family there, because if you
knew your family there, then you would know who is
missing because there's going to be a lot of people
missing because.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
The two by two are that's sad that heaven doesn't
sound fun at all now. And then Hell was just
like some people you know, joke around about like, oh yeah,
all my friends will be in Hell.
Speaker 6 (42:42):
I'd rather be there. No, two by two.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Hell is like you're by yourself for eternity, burning alive.
Speaker 6 (42:49):
So that that was.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
The good place part of Hell if that's where I
end up going.
Speaker 6 (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, there was no uh, there was no good
place part of Hell.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It was just like very traumatizing, a place where even
have a sounded horrible.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
That's a lose lose yeah, bad option.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's why like sometimes the two by two is really
just I'm like, damn, what's.
Speaker 6 (43:09):
The good part.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
How do they recruit? How do they get you know
what's great about us? Nothing? They're like, well, I gotta
know what that's all about.
Speaker 6 (43:19):
Yeah, they're not recruiting.
Speaker 8 (43:21):
That's like when somebody's like, come see my friend do
improv and I'm like is it in a big theater,
They're like, no, it's ten people in a room.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
In a backyard.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Great, that sounds fantastic.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
That is exactly how I would describe the two by twos. Actually,
it's just like.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
A generally general, generationally passed curse.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
Oh no, thanks, anyway, enough about me.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So, like, but do you find that in your daily
life you've been able to kind of refocus re realign
is their hope for people?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 8 (43:55):
Yeah, It's taken a really long time, and it's it's
been a consistent process of reframing, you know, things that
I was taught or things that I learned to to
sort of like form my own identity. That's taken a
long time to kind of like because so much of
your identity is ingrained in the church and ingrained in
(44:15):
that system. That like, I spent a really long time
sort of like unraveling that and then like winding up,
like well who am I?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Like what do I believe? And what do I not believe?
What do I want? What do I not want?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Like?
Speaker 6 (44:27):
What does unraveling look like?
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Is that like just finding things you're interested in and following.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Some some of that absolutely?
Speaker 8 (44:34):
Some of that, Yeah, Like like I'm constantly like hearing people,
like hearing friends like talk about like oh, like you know,
my brother or my cousin showed me this like movie
when I was really young, or like I listened to
this band when I was really young, and it was
like I had to discover all that like later because
I was so limited on what I was allowed to
do and what I was allowed to listen to and
allowed to like my I wanted. I wanted to have
(44:57):
the Eiffel sixty five album, which is I'm Blue.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And my dad I gave it.
Speaker 8 (45:02):
I had to give it to him, to go downstairs
in our basement in Baltimore to listen to the whole
album and read the lyrics to make sure it was okay,
and he still don't let me have it because.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
There was a song the whole album lyrics, this song
called your Clown, and he was like, you don't want
to be anybody's clown?
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Stop?
Speaker 6 (45:26):
Okay.
Speaker 8 (45:26):
So, but like so finding my own identity, like finding
the things that I like am passionate about, or things
that I love, or learning about the universe or learning
about other religions. That's sort of where I am right now.
Is just sort of like trying to educate myself more
on other religions, just something that like I was so
(45:50):
nudged away from when I was younger to like even
like even be curious about. And so you know I was,
I was nudged away from that, and so like now,
you know, in my thirties, I'm just like I don't
know a lot about like Hindu or Islam or Judaism
or Buddhism, like it just like things I want to discover,
(46:10):
Like I'm in this discovery phase.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, that I think is really that's like very exciting.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
Knowledge is power.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah. I read that on a poster in a library once.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean, that's that's an amazing journey. And yeah, you
work in horror films.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
Yeah, yeah, a horror and thriller and action movies. I
produced a lot of action horror and thriller movies.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Talk about you know something that I'm sure was probably
like no, you can't horror movie, just you know, I
would love to.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Talk about this.
Speaker 8 (46:44):
Yeah, I was because demons were real and Satan was
real and hell was real. Like that, Horror, anything even
remotely scary horrified me for a very long time, like
until I was like fourteen, I think fourteen or fifteen,
I watched my first horror movie, which was it Freddy
(47:04):
Versus Jason.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Oh okay, hilarious, which taught me.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
I was like, oh, hruis are can be funny and
they're fun like is that what this is all about? Like,
oh my god, And that just cracked my brain open,
you know, and I started watching everything. But like it
is so interesting because like, you know, I learned how
to make short films. I learned how to edit, and
like in the church, like my first job. I got
(47:30):
my first job when I was fifteen years old with
a production company that was owned by a member of
the church. I would come and work with him after
school and he would and he taught me how to edit,
and he taught me how to use a camera. And
like anytime I get a new job, or anytime I
book like a big thing, or like you know, like
I got a movie into.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
South By, like I text him.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
I always text him because like I'm just like I
wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
But like.
Speaker 8 (47:55):
You know, it was like in the church, they were like,
you're going to use this for like for a like for.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
The heart of the lord.
Speaker 8 (48:02):
You know, for the longest time, they're like, you're going
to use this and you're gonna be a prophet to
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
That was like I make movies about killing Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There was a prophecy told.
Speaker 8 (48:15):
Over my mom when she was pregnant with me that
I was going to be a prophet to the nation
of Africa. Yeah, and that was printed on like it
was like calligraphy. Used to use calligraphy on a scroll
that was in my bedroom for the first like.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Stop it of Africa.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
When I was eight with my parents and there's still.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Time when you were eight or are you expecting some
big thing to happen, because I.
Speaker 8 (48:44):
Know I was expecting to like eat candy with like
like a kid who was a missionary who grew up
there in Nigier.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 8 (48:53):
So it was like it's it's just so funny how
that's shifted so dramatically, uh into like working in genre film,
which I love, and like my mom has only ever
seen like I think like one movie that I've totally
it's because they're just like too much for her.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (49:11):
She'll always ask me like, are there a lot of
curse words, and I'm like, well this one okay. Maybe,
Like I I approuced to a shark movie like a
couple years ago called The Black Demon, and I was like, oh,
you can watch this one.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Mom, like, is not that bad. It's PG thirteen, You'll
be fine.
Speaker 8 (49:26):
And she had like texted me after she watched it
and she was like it was okay, Like there was
there was just some foul language.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
That's just I really didn't.
Speaker 6 (49:35):
For her.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
True. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Oh, do you guys ever have to do family friendly versions.
Speaker 6 (49:41):
With no curse No?
Speaker 2 (49:43):
I mean I guess we don't have to.
Speaker 8 (49:46):
Just like the distributors if they sell the TV rights
like that, have to do like a version like that.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
But that's less and less nowadays.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
It's not like it's airing on no TNT. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (49:55):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's less and less of that, not
in the definitely not in the independent space, right, Yeah,
the studios probably have to do that.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, well, my dad also doesn't like swearing and my
mom doesn't like scary things. So yeah, but they support it.
Speaker 8 (50:12):
They're very supportive, they're very proud, like you know, it's
she just won't watch.
Speaker 6 (50:16):
Yeah, that's a beautiful character arc for you all. I
feel like, yeah, that's that's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 8 (50:24):
I've Yeah, I've never felt more close with my parents
than I do, like now, like going through I think
really it really started when my mom was diagnosed with
breast cancer and like going through that process, and I
moved in with them for a little while to help
take care of her because my dad also had an
emergency quadruple bypass, so they were both like my mom
was in chemo and my dad was recovering.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
My God, So I went home and.
Speaker 8 (50:47):
I took care of them during COVID for a while,
and like that just sort of like started this process
where like we just became so much closer and like
more based in just our relationship as a family and
less about like the church, which felt like it was
such a big part of it for a really long time.
Speaker 6 (51:08):
I thought, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, what a silver lining.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Do you have anything you would like to direct people toward.
Speaker 8 (51:18):
Okay, there's a couple of things. I highly recommend reading
that essay Upon This Rock by John Jeremiah Sullivan. You
can find it online, GQ published it, or it's in
his book pulped I'm always pushing this book because I
think it's incredible, and his wife was one of my
professors in college and so I got to like interview
(51:39):
him when I was in college.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Upon this rock is pretty incredible. Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (51:46):
Yeah, if you haven't seen it, and I feel like
it's fairly popularized now.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
But like the documentary Jesus Camp, Oh.
Speaker 8 (51:54):
Yeah, is like if I ever wanted to like explain
to somebody like what it was like kind of being
indoctrinated at a very young age, Like I point him
to Jesus Camp like nin nine times out of ten
because I'm like, it nails it. I'm like, that's what
it was like to go to church camp. That's what
it was like to go to creation or summer conference
(52:14):
or spending all this time with like various like youth pastors.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Like that's exactly what it was like, right, like fully,
full stop. It's great.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
And any movie. Do you guys have any movies on
the horizon? Uh?
Speaker 8 (52:25):
Yeah, I have a movie called Descendant that's premiering at
south By that'll probably be out later this year.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Do you want me a look on your IMDb pro.
Speaker 8 (52:37):
No, that's the only one I want to promote for
now o yea, yeah, I have other stuff but like
yeah yeah, Descendant is premier it south By and that'll
probably be out later this year.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, Caleb and sharing your story.
Speaker 8 (52:51):
Thanks for having me. This was fun and therapeutic. That's
really interesting all and one.
Speaker 6 (52:57):
That's the goal that is Thank you, Caleb, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
All Right, y'all, Well, Megan's voice is pretty shot, so
we are not going to further comment on this episode.
Speaker 5 (53:08):
We're not going to further subject your ears to my voice.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
But major thanks to Caleb for coming on, coming on
a podcast when that's not something you do a lot
is always stressful and we appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (53:21):
Yes, thank you, Caleb. You're amazing.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
So as always, remember I'm saying Megan's part.
Speaker 6 (53:26):
Please Lola take it away.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
To follow your gut, watch out for red flags. Never
ever trust me, Bye Bye. Trust Me is produced by
Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 6 (53:44):
The special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
I'm u La Lola on Instagram and Olallalla on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Trust me, Trust trust Me.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
I'm like a squat person.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
I've never lied to you. If you think.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That one person has all the answers, don't welcome to
trust Me. The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation
from two Christian rock band groupies who've actually experienced it.
A Lola Blanc and I'm making Elizabeth and Today's part
two of our interview with Caleb Ward, my friend and
former evangelical Christian and pastor's son. So Caleb wasn't in
(00:51):
a strict cult per se, as you might have learned
last week, but talking to him offers a window into
evangelical culture in the early two thousands that we thought
would be relatable for many of our listeners. This week,
we're going to talk about some of the cultural touchstones
of his youth, including heritage USA, which was basically Disneyland
for Christians and Christian rock bands, plus his fear of
losing his virginity before marriage and what hell meant to
(01:12):
each of us growing up.
Speaker 5 (01:13):
We'll talk more about how healthy church leadership can exist
and how his dad was an example of that, how
his parents were ostracized when they left the church, and
what solidified his decision to leave Evangelical Christianity.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Meghan is a little sick today.
Speaker 6 (01:29):
I am. Can you tell? Can you tell?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Don't worry? She's not sick in the interview itself.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
No, no, my voice will only be like those for
a few more seconds, friends, I.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Promise, all right. Well before we get into it with Caleb,
who is a delight, it's a nice break from some
of the very dark things happening in our country and
world at the moment. Megan, are you able to verbalize
your culturest thing of the week?
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Mine's very current. It takes us back to nineteen seventy seven.
Speaker 7 (01:59):
Oh okay, So in my like nightquill induced fever fever dream,
I watched this entire Netflix Son of Sam documentary Have
you seen this yet?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
No? Tell me?
Speaker 7 (02:14):
So?
Speaker 5 (02:14):
It was just following those this horrific serial killer in
New York City in the seventies and then connected it
all to this cult called the Process that was also
operating near where Charles Manson was located. And the kind
of takeaway is that it might have had branches into
(02:37):
all of these offshoot killing spree people. So interesting watch,
really really violent and disgusting. All of them were like
obsessed with killing dogs, and now the Process has become
a dog rescue, which.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
I'm so confused about. Whoa.
Speaker 5 (02:54):
So you know, it's a dark little place that I
wouldn't recommend unless you happen to be of Nike Will.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
But it is very.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Interesting and I should probably watch it again because I
don't fully remember it, but I did take notes and
that's and that's what happened. So uh yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
I want your Nike Will induced cultius thing every week,
like sort of the vague impressions of things.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
Yeah, but you guys, that's really scary, So you know,
make a.
Speaker 6 (03:27):
Note of that for dinner conversations. What about you? What
about you, lolo? What's your cultist thing?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, as always, it's the country, but the news, the news,
the news, the news. I'm I'm gonna not talk too
much about it.
Speaker 6 (03:42):
This week.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
I'm trying to restrain myself from being two dooms day
every single week, but it's pretty bad. What I will
talk about is an article that came out actually last
year about a study that came out that showed that
half of the Americans don't know the difference between a
fact and an opinion. What so there was the person
(04:07):
who wrote this article teaches a class called Assumptions Challenge,
and they you know, he's talking about how he assumed
that his students would know the difference. But researchers at
the University of Illinois, Orbana Champagne am I saying that right,
asked participants to categorize twelve statements about current events as
facts or opinions. Forty five point seven percent could do
(04:28):
that correctly, no more than half the time. So it's like,
you know, a fact would be like there are four
hundred and seventy five people living in this town, and
an opinion would be.
Speaker 6 (04:42):
Warm weathers better than cold, yes.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yes, And obviously, like in our current media landscape, it
can make it very difficult because people are sort of
they can present the same information in a completely different
way and make it sound like a fact. So I
do understand why that would be difficult for people right now,
especially when so much much of our information comes from
social media, and then the distrust has been sown in,
(05:04):
you know, sort of like legacy media, and oftentimes for
a good reason, so it can be really hard to navigate.
But half of Americans not knowing, like the difference between
a fact statement and an opinion statement is really staggering.
I thought, yeah, it's interesting. I I it makes sense
to me that we are where we are. But I
don't even really know what my takeaway is other than
(05:26):
that this feels like something that's really important to me
to talk about and try to help spread awareness about,
like how language can create bias in our minds and
how it's so important to look underneath that and like
look at the actions themselves instead of just what people
are saying about it, and you know, go to the
source material and see what it is. We should probably
(05:49):
just do another episode on.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
And it sounds like an episode.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Yeah, so I like interrupted your facts and just said
cold is no?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
That was good? That was good? That was how full
I was blanking. So yeah, anyway, so that's my takeaway,
and I think it's probably time to have some more
experts on the show because it's been a minute and
there's so much to navigate right now can be so challenging,
and that's my cultis thing perfect.
Speaker 6 (06:14):
Well, shall we talk to Caleb.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
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They're so soft, gorgeous, and a fraction of the price
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(07:42):
One of the things you kind of mentioned when we
talked prior to today was how you would get these
strong feelings in church and around church, and I like,
I don't know how you couldn't given how heightened these
rituals are. How do you think that shaped your young mind?
Speaker 8 (08:04):
Well, like I was saying, if it's very performative at
times and like very theatrical, which is why I think
I like leaned into the arts, and like I did
a lot of like musicals and plays, just like performance
was like just felt like every day right that heightened state.
Like I had a really interesting situation when I was
(08:26):
in college and I like went to a concert. I
couldn't tell you who I was seeing.
Speaker 6 (08:30):
It was probably no.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
No.
Speaker 8 (08:33):
This was after after I wish I had have seen
Jars of Clay. They were bangers. Jars of Clay, ohc
Super Tones, Newsboys. Oh I could keep going GC talk.
Uh oh yeah, I have to talk about Creation Fest
at some point too.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Yes, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That just like that brought
back a flood of memories.
Speaker 8 (08:56):
I but to answer your question, like, it's, uh, it's
such a streaming because like I can like take myself
there like mentally, like I can find myself back in
that place of like it feeling so real at the time,
like like people laying hands on me, like speaking in
tongues like I would speak in tongues, you know, hearing
a prophetic word over me, playing drums and like really
(09:18):
feeling the emotion. But it's like that's it's performance, it's music,
it's emotion. Like that, it just felt like a trick.
When I finally look back on it, I was like
I was like tricking myself or I was being tricked.
It felt like like I was being sort of like
manipulated in some way to feel a certain way. And like, yeah,
there were some like youth pastors or other pastors would
really like push you into it, like you've gotta feel
(09:40):
this and you're gonna feel this. And like I saw
that happen to so many people who eventually like left
the church, I think because they just probably started to
feel almost like.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Bullied in some way, right, you know.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
That was a big thing which I mentioned at the top,
is like when people would leave, like they would just
disappear basically, you know, like it was like they had
died and like we didn't speak to them, and how
they left or they're off the path or they're off
the path.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You know. I mean I've talked about this on here before.
You know, in Mormonism, you know, you feel the spirit
and you're supposed to bear your testimony, which is a
much quieter version of what you're talking about, because it's this,
it's I'd like to bear my testimony that I know
this church is true, and I know Joseph Smith was
a real prophet or was a prophet? Is the prophet?
I don't fucking know. I don't remember now. And you know,
(10:27):
people would start crying and I went to e f Y,
which is like teenager camp for Mormons, and all these
kids would be going up and crying, and I was like,
what is.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Wrong with you? They're like why am I not feeling this?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Yes? And I like and I have to imagine the
people who were more prone to crying probably are more
prone to crying at concerts too, or in TV shows.
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
That's what That's what I was trying to say.
Speaker 8 (10:50):
It was like I went to a concert in college
and like became very emotional, and I was like, that's
what this is, right, And like when I really cracked
that code, I was like, oh my god, that's all
this is.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's just like it's like I.
Speaker 8 (11:03):
Just love music, like yeah, yeah, just like feel like
or like this sort of like herd mentality like can
really suck you in. Like if you start crying and
you start crying, like I'm probably gonna start crying, just
just the.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Way people yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
You know scene ever where they.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Just yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 8 (11:24):
It's so easy to like get caught up in that
because if you're like even like remotely tapped into like
your emotional self and like your emotional well being, I
think it's really easy to.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Get caught up in that.
Speaker 8 (11:35):
Yeah, And that just like cracking that code because like
even now, like my wife and I were back home
for Christmas in Florida and my grandmother, who is ninety,
really wanted to take us to her churches. Whire's way
more traditional like Baptists, very very Southern Baptist, just like
you know, simple like not speaking and talking about that.
(11:58):
She wants us to go see her Christmas light show,
Like they had this crazy Christmas light show on the
outside of the building that would.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Like run every hour on the hour.
Speaker 8 (12:05):
Well, and I went and like I kind of had
a moment where like I felt like very emotional. It's
just sort of like hearing all these like words over
and over again, or like hearing the story of like Jesus,
like it just like taps into something that like is
still like locked away somewhere deep in my psyche.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah. One of the things that I think is so
important for I wish more of society understood was that
any basically any group in any church can create a
heightened emotional experience in you. And having a heightened emotional
experience is not equal to the teachings being true or
the leader being the real prophet, absolutely, because there are
(12:43):
a million ways to produce that state.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And I went on to a Tony Robbins seminar and
walked across Hot coals because everybody was shouting the same
word altogether.
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean, of course that'd make you feel. I was like,
like something insane is happening.
Speaker 6 (12:57):
Right across the coles. Yeah, wow, God is not that
is not doing that?
Speaker 3 (13:02):
That's worse. I always thought that Tony Robbins hot coal
thing was a rumor. I didn't realize it was.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
It was real. It was real.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
And how were your feet after?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I was totally fine. But the woman behind me got
like burnt a little. They had an ambulance what yeah, yeah, yeah, no,
you can like actually get very burnt.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
But well they're hot cold.
Speaker 6 (13:21):
But I do think you can get your mind into
a state.
Speaker 8 (13:25):
Yeah that well that's a very that's a that's a
very old yeah, like tradition or spoken Yeah. I don't
know where it comes from, but like that's something I
feel like. It's essentially it's like endurance and it's sort
of like building your body.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Flame and it's really fast.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
You're not going to get like you think if.
Speaker 8 (13:46):
I grab a hot pot really quickly, like I'm probably
not going to get thirders.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:50):
Yeah, this was this was a long walk. This was
a long little walk. But the chanting and.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
The eighteen hour day of him screaming at us really
had wow, had me ready to go out?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (14:03):
Yeah, So that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
And for some groups it's like meditation for hours, and
for some groups it's like your group whorreth. This is
very outward, very you know, loud sort of worship, and
it takes many different forms, but I think the common
denominator is that like members are like, well, I wouldn't
feel this strongly if it wasn't true, and it's like no,
(14:25):
I mean, you could feel this strongly pretty much anywhere.
When we had a guest on who you know, was
like a one direction stand. Fans will experience the same
thing in that the.
Speaker 8 (14:36):
Same thing with like girls crying when the Beatles showed up. Right,
it's the same thing, right.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
You know, And I think that can be really hard,
hard pill to swallow because it's so you know, you
want there to be magic in life. And I don't
know about you, but for me, like after I found
out that my profit was not a real profit and
was just a con man, I had believed that I
was special and like life had this very like big importance,
(15:01):
you know, because I was like one of the chosen,
one of literally like the two chosen people on the planet.
So after sort of exiting that, life just seemed so
much more boring, and I was like, wait, but that's
but that was, but that was more exciting.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Hard to reckon with the idea that you're not special
or this thing that you've been told for your entire
life might be a croc or might be based in
uh selfishness or you know, foolish desires. Like that's really
hard to reckon with, you know, because it's like it's
your life, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, I mean, and I mean I think that's one
of the reasons I turned to entertainment because I was like, no,
I will be special, going to be up the pop star.
Speaker 8 (15:49):
Yeah, it's good that you leaned into an industry that's
incredibly stable and really respects you and your identity on.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
The chaos, It's yeah, I don't know that. That was
one of the things about your story that sort of
stuck with me the most because it wasn't just the services. Also,
like you were going to Heritage USA, which is Disneyland
for Christians.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
Well, I was going to say that me being like
a little bit on the spectrum I think protected me
sometimes from things I think me being spectrumy protected me
from a lot of the things that y'all are talking about,
because I never really I know when other people are
feeling emotion.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
I feel very strong emotion.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
I'm very sensitive, but not necessarily when I'm supposed to,
And if other people around me are feeling something, I
almost like am like, oh I don't want to feel it.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Oh wow, Well, I mean I wasn't feeling what they
were feeling. I just felt the pressure to fit in,
but I didn't actually understand it.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
I don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 8 (16:50):
Maybe I'm that like it's almost like, okay, the only
way I can describe it. Maybe you've experienced this is like,
have you ever been at a like a restaurant with
like ten people and you're talking to like one person
and eight other people are talking about something, and all
of a sudden they burst into laughter.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Right, and you didn't hear it. It's almost like jarring.
Speaker 8 (17:10):
It like will like hurt my ears, and it like
scares me because it's like I'm not a part of
the thing, right.
Speaker 6 (17:16):
Yeah, No, that's a good point. Yeah, Okay, I feel
that a lot.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, yeah, and they.
Speaker 6 (17:23):
Like double down on it.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Not being funny and look at them and I'm like, Okay,
it's not it's not that like I'm not a part
of the joke.
Speaker 8 (17:30):
It's like I didn't see that. It's like somebody like
blaring an airhorn on your face.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Well, I also just hate when people make noise, so that.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Everybody be quiet, no.
Speaker 8 (17:43):
One emote in any capacity towards Lola.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
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Speaker 2 (20:09):
Tell us about Yeah, hair did USA and the Creationfest.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
It's a real thing. So Jim and Tammy Faye Baker Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:19):
Yes, are they both okay? Yeah? I really love the
eyes of Tammy Fay. I loved the Michael Schowalastine. I
feel like it like and they talk a lot about
here did u sa in that there's a section that's
sort of all about it, So if you want to
kind of like get an idea of what it looked like,
(20:40):
it was basically, yeah, like Disneyland for Christians. It was
a hotel, it was a shopping complex, it was a
conference center. It was a water park. There was a
castle that was like an arcade. It's gone now, it's
like not even like the like there's no rubble. I
think it's like a parking lot.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
I don't even know.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
It was on the board of North and South Carolina
and it was basically like this center where like we
would come and go to go to conferences or like
youth trips or things like that, and we mostly went
when we were in Baltimore because it was it was
closed down in the nineties for I think, like tax fraud.
(21:19):
And they talked a lot about how there's an article
online you can read like somebody used to work there
that like they went back like a few months later,
and it looked like everybody had been like raptured. Like
it was like sandwiches were half eaten, like chairs were pulled.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Out, but it was like everybody.
Speaker 8 (21:33):
It was like somebody walked in one day and went
like okay, everybody out, and like that was a beautiful.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
And ire ironic ending.
Speaker 8 (21:40):
So this was a place we would go, we would
take like youth trips, like this is something I went
to when I was when I was very little. Obviously
this was born in ninety one, and it was this
place where like it was just like this like haven
for people sort of in that like evangelical mentality where
(22:01):
they would come and see like famous you know pastors
come and preach, you know, like nowadays, it would be
like the Joel Osteins of the world, you know, or
like TD Jakes, or you'd go see Kirk Franklin perform.
You know, a lot of these guys who are like
these mega church you know, influencers. That's a whole other
(22:22):
can of worms. And it was so wild. But like
I went back when I was in college. I was
dating a girl who grew up in Charlotte, and like
we went there for like Thanksgiving, I think, and I
was like.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I had completely forgottenbout her to USA.
Speaker 8 (22:38):
I'd like buried it like in my psyche somewhere, and
we went that. She was like, oh, you got to
see this abandoned amusement park and I was like, oh, sick.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
That sounds awesome, like a band of music park.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
She's like, yeah, it's right on the border, like it's
all fenced up, but we gotta go and like check
it out.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
And I was like cool.
Speaker 8 (22:55):
And I went and it was like like somebody had
like plugged a USB in my head. That was like
here's all those memories and it was like I've been
here before Oh my god, this is the castle, and
there's the water park, and there's the center, and like
there's the the atrium where the Amphitheater was where people
would put on like passion plays and things like that.
It was insane and it's just this decrepit old building.
(23:17):
I think they demolished it like six months later, so
I got to see it like right before. It's crazy.
You can find it on YouTube, like there's like there's
like old seminar videos and you can kind of like
tour through.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
There's like an ad for it.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
It's it's wild, but it was a it was a
theme park for Christians.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
It was all based in Christianity. It was all based
in like evangelical Christianity. So it was like a safe
place to come as a Christian where you don't have
to deal with all those like worldly trappings of Disney
World or King's Dominion or Universal Studio.
Speaker 6 (23:45):
I think was there a mouse of any sort?
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Was there?
Speaker 8 (23:48):
I don't think they had a man. I don't remember
if they had a mascot.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
I bet they did. Think it was.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Walking around and like Mary's walking around or would that
be now?
Speaker 8 (24:00):
I do remember I do remember seeing like there were
people like dressed as wise men and shepherds and things
like that that would look kind of like wander around.
I do remember that. Yeah, I put your picture with you.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Know, I'm not like see a guy on a day,
I'm a wise man at heritage.
Speaker 8 (24:16):
Well there is there is still an experience called the
Holy Land Experience that's in Orlando, Florida, and it is
essentially as though you have stepped into Jerusalem. Whoa, yeah,
I can't imagine what the vibe is like there right now.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yah.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, I was gonna talk about Creation Fest.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, to tell his creation pest.
Speaker 8 (24:37):
So okay, So creation Fest I have so many more
memories of because this is something I did as like
a teenager. Creation Fest. It's still around, oh god, but yeah,
I think it's a lot smaller now, but it was.
It took place in Pennsylvania on a farm in Pennsylvania.
It started in the eighties and it was a three
(24:58):
or four four day music festival and there were like
three stages and like the Newsboys and switch Foot and
DC Talk and.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Oh my god, I'm trying to remember all the other bands.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
There was a the main stage and then there was
the fringe stage, and like the fringe stages where like
Pod played, you know, and like Family Force five do
not look them up, good lord.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Oh god. It's like techno rock. Uh yeah and uh and.
Speaker 8 (25:31):
Like it was like this three four day festival where
like you know, young people would call it was like
all youth groups from like all over all over the world.
Really was hundreds of thousands of people would come to
this place. There was an incredible essay called Upon This
Rock written by John Jeremiah Sullivan. It's in a book
of essays called Pulped. He's an incredible essayist. He has
(25:52):
written a lot for like GQ, and he wrote a
book or he wrote an essay called Upon This Rock
that is about him going to Creation Fest and like
getting in really tight with like a group of like bikers,
like reformed biker gangs. And there was this like mountain
that you could climb up and you could see you know,
all of the all of you know, the the festival grounds.
(26:13):
But it was like a camping festiv It was like
Bonaou for Christians, and like we would go and like
you would hear you know, you would hear church services
and there'd be youth services, but it was just like
a bunch of like horny teenagers intents right of which
I did not get to take place in any of
that because I was so fearful of losing my virginity
until I was married, because that was so ingrained in me.
(26:37):
But like yeah, they were just like like that was
the thing is, like I have a lot of like fun,
fond memories m that oftentimes can get like overshadowed by
like the reality of what was happening when I would
come back.
Speaker 6 (26:48):
It's so much cognitive dissonance.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Like I had such an idyllic childhood but also so
terrifying and adults looking in my face and being.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Like you're probably going to hell, oh God, Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
Yeah, ah something. You have to deal with it.
Speaker 8 (27:03):
Same, Like I like I had an incredible childhood. My
parents are incredible. We're very close. They understand sort of
like where I am and like my beliefs, and like
we have a very open, honest dialogue. They have, like
really since they left the church six years ago, they've
really like a lot of stuff has happened since then
that they've really just sort of like softened about a
(27:25):
lot of things. They still believe very much what they
believe but like I think that leaving the church was
so good for them in so many ways.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Yeah, you're so like your dad was a pastor, and
I just want to like mention that, like you can
be a religious leader and not be a bad person. Yeah,
like you like it sounds like your dad was an
example maybe of like a healthy of healthy leadership.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Yeah, he really really just wanted to like help people.
He would do a lot of like couples couples like
not their be but like I guess couples therapy, couple's counseling.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
That was it. Thank you.
Speaker 8 (28:04):
You do a lot of like couples counseling and like
one on one they my parents took in people that
would like that would stay with them for like months
and then like just like disappear. Like people are like
recovering addicts or like single mothers or like you know,
people that just like they just genuinely wanted to help.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
You know, I still do a lot of people are
like that. Like it's not about hating hating on Christianity
as much as the you know, current administration would like
to think that Christianity is under attack. It's like there
is such thing as healthy leadership. But what that looks
like is is when there isn't an extreme degree of control,
(28:42):
when there isn't an extreme degree of ostracization, and people
are allowed to essentially be themselves and worship in the
way that they want to worship, right, Like.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
Like that's what it should be about.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, I like looking back now, like what would you
say are the evangelical community maybe in general, because you
kind of were a part of that whole world, Like
what are the parts of it that you think are
maybe not the healthiest?
Speaker 3 (29:09):
The parts that are like not the healthiest?
Speaker 8 (29:11):
Is sort of this ostracization hard yeah, of of of
groups for believing differently or feeling a certain way or
like having shifting beliefs. It's like it's a very organic thing,
you know, belief in general, whatever you believe in, whatever
you believe in or don't believe in, Like it's a
very organic thing something that like I feel like I'm
(29:33):
constantly sort of like battling with or trying to understand
or stepping away from and coming back to.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
It's just like what do I believe in? Like what
do I don't? What do I not believe in?
Speaker 8 (29:41):
I would consider myself like a very strong agnostic where
I'm like, I don't have the answers. I barely understand
how mirrors work, Like I'm not going to question the
existence of the universe, like I I, you know, I
barely understand that even And so I think that, like,
the really terrible thing is this like ostracizing of people,
because it is so unhealthy and it's so unfair and
(30:05):
it's really vicious.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
I don't speak to.
Speaker 8 (30:09):
Ninety percent of the people that I knew for the
first eighteen years.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Of my life, like they're just.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Gone because you left and I left.
Speaker 8 (30:19):
And then once my parents left, it was a really
awful situation where my father handed the church down to
a younger pastor and they were essentially just ostracized and
as though like they hadn't given the last you know,
thirteen years or gosh, no more than that seventeen years
(30:40):
of their life to that church, and that congregation just.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Like their community just disappeared.
Speaker 6 (30:46):
Yeah, was he merely retiring or did he find it?
Speaker 8 (30:49):
My dad has dealt with like my dad has dealt
with like health issues for most of his life, and like,
basically there was a really horrible hurricane that came through
in twenty nineteen and he had handed the church over
right before that, and he told me, you know, shortly
after that, he was like, if I'd have still been
pastoring the church when that came through, I think it
would have killed me just because how much you had
(31:12):
to deal with.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
And so like I'm really thankful for that. But when
they when they stepped down.
Speaker 8 (31:18):
It's a thing that like I don't understand because I
just have a hard time wrapping my head around like
how you could have somebody in your life for that
long and they decided to do something for their own
health and well being, right, And it's as though like
they've slighted you.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And that's they felt betrayed that he didn't want to
lead anymore. Was he still going to be a member?
Speaker 8 (31:42):
Yeah, like he was still a member, but like they
started to feel unwelcome and that's why they left. They
just they were they left. They still lived in the
town for for several years before they moved back to
Florida where they are now. But like they were, I
mean they're like ghosts. M And my mom went through
breast cancer essentially like on her own.
Speaker 6 (32:05):
My dad.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
That's so sad, and I have a lot of like
anger towards this community still that I'm trying to work
through and I'm in therapy and I'm trying to figure
it out, but I still hold onto a lot of anger.
Speaker 8 (32:24):
And my parents were angry and not angry. They were
very disappointed in how that all went down when they
left for a very long time, and they've really grown
past it to like really let a lot of that go.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
They're so good at that, and like I am not.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, what is your parents protected?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Way more than that.
Speaker 8 (32:44):
It's way more that than it is even the even
like the religious aspect.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Yeah, those are my parents. You're like you fuckers. My
mom had to deal with that by herself. You were
her community.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
Yeah, yeah disappeared.
Speaker 7 (32:56):
Wow.
Speaker 8 (32:58):
Yeah there have been some there have been, and there
have been a handful who have been like really really
really really good to them and like have really stuck
with them as friends. But I'd say, like, but like
ninety ninety five percent of the congregation just overnight gone.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Ugh.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Yeah, it's so hard as someone you know, I I'm
not anti religion, but I am very skeptical of most religions,
but and in particular, like this sort of brand of
Christianity that purports to be about worshiping or following, you know,
following Christ.
Speaker 8 (33:30):
It's also about building community and spreading the word and
like bringing in and being kind.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Jesus's message was right.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
And so many of these churches, like a lot of
the megachurches that are making a lot of many like
there's primary messages are like that's you know, that's the
opposite of what Jesus is talking about, right, you know,
that's like actually like yeah, hate, that's hate, yeah yeah.
Or you know, discriminating like prioritizing money and wealth. It's
(34:01):
like that's literally the.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Operation of racism. It's just so utterly so un Christian,
so un Christian. It's so and even as like a
two year old, I could see that and like almost weird.
Speaker 8 (34:12):
Yeah, you know, only because it's like at the top
of my brain because I was listening to it on
the way over. I was listening to this, like I
was telling I was listening to this like playlist that
I had put together of like oh my god, what
were the like late nineties, early two thousands, just.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Like Christian pop bangers. And there's a quote at.
Speaker 8 (34:28):
The beginning of there's a really famous song called Jesus Freak.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Have you ever heard this song? Okay, it's DC Talk
Jesus Freak from like ninety.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Six, elevating DC Talk's status right now because I had
never heard of this band.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
What Toby mac lead singer DC Talk.
Speaker 8 (34:47):
So at the beginning of the song, there's a quote
and it's something to the degree of the greatest cause
of atheism in the world is Christians. He says, it's
like a quarter of the beginning. And when I heard
that again this morning. This is a song I've heard
probably one hundred thousand times, like when I was a kid,
(35:09):
and like I heard that this morning for the first time,
and I was like, that's at.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
The beginning of that, Like that's so true.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
That's interesting. They were Christians, Yeah, but.
Speaker 6 (35:19):
They're just saying like the shitty Christian.
Speaker 8 (35:20):
Right, Like that's the thing is Like, the one of
the biggest reasons why I stepped away from Christianity was
the people.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, one of the biggest reasons.
Speaker 6 (35:30):
Yeah, judgmental little memis.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What what I don't understand is was there something about
this church in particular that was like you have to
be at this one, like if you go to a
different one.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Yeah, there was there was something wherein like they had
all felt like they had kind of tapped into a
source that it was like uncharted waters, like we're all
discovering this together, Like we're all Indiana Jones and we're
like carving out this this uh, this artifact, and we're
going to figure it out together. Like this is new,
this is new new, you know, this isn't like that
(36:03):
same old, same old, Like we're figuring this out together.
It was like discovering a new belief system like within
evangelical Christianity. Yes, that was at the core of this,
Like you got to be here because I'm picking up
on something that nobody else.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Is picking up on.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
Yeah, so jumping ship was like really yeah, taking.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Like wow, you really like it really gave up really
abandoned shit making people.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
We're figuring this out, like I'm mad. Yeah, I get that.
Speaker 9 (36:32):
It's twenty twenty five and a new year means brand
new opportunities. And for a lot of you out there,
I know you've been thinking about one thing over the holidays,
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(37:15):
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Speaker 2 (37:40):
What was the thing for you that really like solidified, Like, Okay,
I'm not interested in this religion.
Speaker 8 (37:47):
I think it started, you know, after high school, really
pretty deeply, where I just started to realize that that
connection that I felt like I had had had for
a very long time was based in artifice, and it
was more this story that I've been telling myself for
(38:08):
a long time as opposed to like because as soon
as I took a step back and went what do
I actually believe in?
Speaker 3 (38:14):
It was a pretty short list.
Speaker 8 (38:17):
And I and I really started to read the Bible
and really started to kind of research and and look
at it from like an objective perspective and not from
like a not from like a you know, a studying
for the advancement. It was more like I want to
look at this objectively, like this story just like doesn't
even make sense and it's so contradictory at times. And
I was like, but in the Christian faith, like the
(38:40):
Bible is concrete, like there are no variations, Like it
is what it is, what it is, you know, Old Testament,
New Testament, Like no no variation, It's all true. And
I was like, but is it? And I just really
started to like question that for a very long time.
And it was sort of like it was It wasn't
like it wasn't an overnight thing for me, you know,
(39:03):
it was it was several years of just like learning
more about the universe and learning more about like I
just didn't want to spend my whole life focusing on
like the next thing, and I wanted to invest in
like the people currently because I saw so much of
that when I was younger, of people being sort of
slighted or or disappearing from our lives, and I didn't
(39:25):
want that to happen. I wanted to be like a
positive energy. And I think that that's kind of what
I really sort of like gleaned to Hm.
Speaker 6 (39:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
What I was going to ask is, do you have
any stuff that's like remaining you know, like I still
kind of have.
Speaker 6 (39:39):
Like a fear of how.
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Oh for sure?
Speaker 6 (39:42):
Really?
Speaker 3 (39:42):
Oh yeah yeah.
Speaker 8 (39:44):
So my wife and I were like just goofing off
of the house a few weeks ago, and she was
like trying to do a bit with me, and she
was like, she was like, what's your greatest fear, like
trying to get me to say, like losing you, and
I just went, I just went that hell's real and
I've been wrong all the time.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
And she was like, you're supposed to say losing me?
Speaker 8 (40:08):
Yeah too, also that, but I was like, yeah, that's
my biggest fears.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
I was like, oh, what if I'm what if I'm wrong?
Speaker 8 (40:15):
Like what if I've just like built this insular mentality
much like Christianity. It's like, how do you know, Like,
like I really struggle with that hell less so because
like hell.
Speaker 3 (40:28):
Was Hell wasn't like a big thing that was sort.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Of preached lucky, you're so lucky.
Speaker 6 (40:35):
Yeah, I don't mean to brag.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
I don't think I'm going but no, like that wasn't
like a big thing. It was.
Speaker 8 (40:44):
It was kind of a thing when I was when
I was younger, when we were in Baltimore at Velvet
or Baptist Church, like, but it really started to kind
of go away. It was less about this like afterlife
thing and it was more about like you know, like
communing and being more in touch you know, currently, Like
it wasn't like you're going to hell. You're on how
you're going to hell, you know, not fire and brimstone. Yeah,
but like that's that's definitely something that I hold on to.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Is like, oh but what yeah, I had that for
a while. I don't anymore.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Really, Yeah, how'd you get rid of it?
Speaker 2 (41:16):
But I also, you know, in Mormonism, hall isn't really
there's not really a traditional but it does like it
almost didn't matter because I thought sex was such a
big sin that I still thought that I like basically
thought I was going to hell, which is so weird
because it's like, oh yeah, it's just the lowest tier
of heaven. But the lowest tier of heaven means you
don't get to like be with your family in the afterlife. Yeah,
so it might as well be you know what I mean.
Speaker 8 (41:37):
That's the interesting thing that like, I'm so curious about
your experience with this is because like like there weren't
like it was more organic to us there. There weren't
like strict systems of like this part of heaven and
then this part of heaven. It was like like when
I would ask when I would ask somebody in the church,
or I'd ask my dad or I'd ask my mom,
like what does heaven even mean? They would describe it
(41:58):
as like being permanently in the presence of God, And
I was.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Like, the fuck does that mean? Right? Like could you
be more specific? Like is there a buildings, a planet?
Speaker 6 (42:09):
Right?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Right?
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (42:10):
Because I didn't have that. So I'm like even the
lack of structure was confusing.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Well, I'm sure and the two by two's heaven was
going to just be a never ending church service, Oh
my God, like hell, extremely boring, but Also it was
like you're not going to have a body and you're
not going to know your family there, because if you
knew your family there, then you would know who is
missing because there's going to be a lot of people
missing because.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
The two by two are that's sad that heaven doesn't
sound fun at all now. And then Hell was just
like some people you know, joke around about like, oh yeah,
all my friends will be in Hell.
Speaker 6 (42:42):
I'd rather be there. No, two by two.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Hell is like you're by yourself for eternity, burning alive.
Speaker 6 (42:49):
So that that was.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
The good place part of Hell if that's where I
end up going.
Speaker 6 (42:53):
Yeah, yeah, there was no uh, there was no good
place part of Hell.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
It was just like very traumatizing, a place where even
have a sounded horrible.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
That's a lose lose yeah, bad option.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's why like sometimes the two by two is really
just I'm like, damn, what's.
Speaker 6 (43:09):
The good part.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
How do they recruit? How do they get you know
what's great about us? Nothing? They're like, well, I gotta
know what that's all about.
Speaker 6 (43:19):
Yeah, they're not recruiting.
Speaker 8 (43:21):
That's like when somebody's like, come see my friend do
improv and I'm like is it in a big theater,
They're like, no, it's ten people in a room.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
In a backyard.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Great, that sounds fantastic.
Speaker 6 (43:31):
That is exactly how I would describe the two by twos. Actually,
it's just like.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
A generally general, generationally passed curse.
Speaker 6 (43:39):
Oh no, thanks, anyway, enough about me.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
So, like, but do you find that in your daily
life you've been able to kind of refocus re realign
is their hope for people?
Speaker 3 (43:54):
Absolutely?
Speaker 8 (43:55):
Yeah, It's taken a really long time, and it's it's
been a consistent process of reframing, you know, things that
I was taught or things that I learned to to
sort of like form my own identity. That's taken a
long time to kind of like because so much of
your identity is ingrained in the church and ingrained in
(44:15):
that system. That like, I spent a really long time
sort of like unraveling that and then like winding up,
like well who am I?
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Like what do I believe? And what do I not believe?
What do I want? What do I not want?
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Like?
Speaker 6 (44:27):
What does unraveling look like?
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Is that like just finding things you're interested in and following.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Some some of that absolutely?
Speaker 8 (44:34):
Some of that, Yeah, Like like I'm constantly like hearing people,
like hearing friends like talk about like oh, like you know,
my brother or my cousin showed me this like movie
when I was really young, or like I listened to
this band when I was really young, and it was
like I had to discover all that like later because
I was so limited on what I was allowed to
do and what I was allowed to listen to and
allowed to like my I wanted. I wanted to have
(44:57):
the Eiffel sixty five album, which is I'm Blue.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
And my dad I gave it.
Speaker 8 (45:02):
I had to give it to him, to go downstairs
in our basement in Baltimore to listen to the whole
album and read the lyrics to make sure it was okay,
and he still don't let me have it because.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
There was a song the whole album lyrics, this song
called your Clown, and he was like, you don't want
to be anybody's clown?
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Stop?
Speaker 6 (45:26):
Okay.
Speaker 8 (45:26):
So, but like so finding my own identity, like finding
the things that I like am passionate about, or things
that I love, or learning about the universe or learning
about other religions. That's sort of where I am right now.
Is just sort of like trying to educate myself more
on other religions, just something that like I was so
(45:50):
nudged away from when I was younger to like even
like even be curious about. And so you know I was,
I was nudged away from that, and so like now,
you know, in my thirties, I'm just like I don't
know a lot about like Hindu or Islam or Judaism
or Buddhism, like it just like things I want to discover,
(46:10):
Like I'm in this discovery phase.
Speaker 3 (46:13):
Yeah, that I think is really that's like very exciting.
Speaker 6 (46:16):
Knowledge is power.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah. I read that on a poster in a library once.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean, that's that's an amazing journey. And yeah, you
work in horror films.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
Yeah, yeah, a horror and thriller and action movies. I
produced a lot of action horror and thriller movies.
Speaker 1 (46:36):
Talk about you know something that I'm sure was probably
like no, you can't horror movie, just you know, I
would love to.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Talk about this.
Speaker 8 (46:44):
Yeah, I was because demons were real and Satan was
real and hell was real. Like that, Horror, anything even
remotely scary horrified me for a very long time, like
until I was like fourteen, I think fourteen or fifteen,
I watched my first horror movie, which was it Freddy
(47:04):
Versus Jason.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
Oh okay, hilarious, which taught me.
Speaker 8 (47:08):
I was like, oh, hruis are can be funny and
they're fun like is that what this is all about? Like,
oh my god, And that just cracked my brain open,
you know, and I started watching everything. But like it
is so interesting because like, you know, I learned how
to make short films. I learned how to edit, and
like in the church, like my first job. I got
(47:30):
my first job when I was fifteen years old with
a production company that was owned by a member of
the church. I would come and work with him after
school and he would and he taught me how to edit,
and he taught me how to use a camera. And
like anytime I get a new job, or anytime I
book like a big thing, or like you know, like
I got a movie into.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
South By, like I text him.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
I always text him because like I'm just like I
wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you, you know.
Speaker 3 (47:53):
But like.
Speaker 8 (47:55):
You know, it was like in the church, they were like,
you're going to use this for like for a like for.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
The heart of the lord.
Speaker 8 (48:02):
You know, for the longest time, they're like, you're going
to use this and you're gonna be a prophet to
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
That was like I make movies about killing Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (48:10):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. There was a prophecy told.
Speaker 8 (48:15):
Over my mom when she was pregnant with me that
I was going to be a prophet to the nation
of Africa. Yeah, and that was printed on like it
was like calligraphy. Used to use calligraphy on a scroll
that was in my bedroom for the first like.
Speaker 3 (48:31):
Twelve years old.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Stop it of Africa.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
When I was eight with my parents and there's still.
Speaker 1 (48:37):
Time when you were eight or are you expecting some
big thing to happen, because I.
Speaker 8 (48:44):
Know I was expecting to like eat candy with like
like a kid who was a missionary who grew up
there in Nigier.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
And uh yeah.
Speaker 8 (48:53):
So it was like it's it's just so funny how
that's shifted so dramatically, uh into like working in genre film,
which I love, and like my mom has only ever
seen like I think like one movie that I've totally
it's because they're just like too much for her.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (49:11):
She'll always ask me like, are there a lot of
curse words, and I'm like, well this one okay. Maybe,
Like I I approuced to a shark movie like a
couple years ago called The Black Demon, and I was like, oh,
you can watch this one.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
Mom, like, is not that bad. It's PG thirteen, You'll
be fine.
Speaker 8 (49:26):
And she had like texted me after she watched it
and she was like it was okay, Like there was
there was just some foul language.
Speaker 3 (49:32):
That's just I really didn't.
Speaker 6 (49:35):
For her.
Speaker 3 (49:36):
True. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
Oh, do you guys ever have to do family friendly versions.
Speaker 6 (49:41):
With no curse No?
Speaker 2 (49:43):
I mean I guess we don't have to.
Speaker 8 (49:46):
Just like the distributors if they sell the TV rights
like that, have to do like a version like that.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
But that's less and less nowadays.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
It's not like it's airing on no TNT. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (49:55):
Yeah, yeah, there's there's less and less of that, not
in the definitely not in the independent space, right, Yeah,
the studios probably have to do that.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, well, my dad also doesn't like swearing and my
mom doesn't like scary things. So yeah, but they support it.
Speaker 8 (50:12):
They're very supportive, they're very proud, like you know, it's
she just won't watch.
Speaker 6 (50:16):
Yeah, that's a beautiful character arc for you all. I
feel like, yeah, that's that's a really beautiful thing.
Speaker 8 (50:24):
I've Yeah, I've never felt more close with my parents
than I do, like now, like going through I think
really it really started when my mom was diagnosed with
breast cancer and like going through that process, and I
moved in with them for a little while to help
take care of her because my dad also had an
emergency quadruple bypass, so they were both like my mom
was in chemo and my dad was recovering.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
My God, So I went home and.
Speaker 8 (50:47):
I took care of them during COVID for a while,
and like that just sort of like started this process
where like we just became so much closer and like
more based in just our relationship as a family and
less about like the church, which felt like it was
such a big part of it for a really long time.
Speaker 6 (51:08):
I thought, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (51:10):
Yeah, what a silver lining.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
Do you have anything you would like to direct people toward.
Speaker 8 (51:18):
Okay, there's a couple of things. I highly recommend reading
that essay Upon This Rock by John Jeremiah Sullivan. You
can find it online, GQ published it, or it's in
his book pulped I'm always pushing this book because I
think it's incredible, and his wife was one of my
professors in college and so I got to like interview
(51:39):
him when I was in college.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
Upon this rock is pretty incredible. Oh my god.
Speaker 8 (51:46):
Yeah, if you haven't seen it, and I feel like
it's fairly popularized now.
Speaker 3 (51:51):
But like the documentary Jesus Camp, Oh.
Speaker 8 (51:54):
Yeah, is like if I ever wanted to like explain
to somebody like what it was like kind of being
indoctrinated at a very young age, Like I point him
to Jesus Camp like nin nine times out of ten
because I'm like, it nails it. I'm like, that's what
it was like to go to church camp. That's what
it was like to go to creation or summer conference
(52:14):
or spending all this time with like various like youth pastors.
Speaker 3 (52:17):
Like that's exactly what it was like, right, like fully,
full stop. It's great.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
And any movie. Do you guys have any movies on
the horizon? Uh?
Speaker 8 (52:25):
Yeah, I have a movie called Descendant that's premiering at
south By that'll probably be out later this year.
Speaker 2 (52:33):
Do you want me a look on your IMDb pro.
Speaker 8 (52:37):
No, that's the only one I want to promote for
now o yea, yeah, I have other stuff but like
yeah yeah, Descendant is premier it south By and that'll
probably be out later this year.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, Caleb and sharing your story.
Speaker 8 (52:51):
Thanks for having me. This was fun and therapeutic. That's
really interesting all and one.
Speaker 6 (52:57):
That's the goal that is Thank you, Caleb, Thank you.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
All Right, y'all, Well, Megan's voice is pretty shot, so
we are not going to further comment on this episode.
Speaker 5 (53:08):
We're not going to further subject your ears to my voice.
Speaker 2 (53:13):
But major thanks to Caleb for coming on, coming on
a podcast when that's not something you do a lot
is always stressful and we appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (53:21):
Yes, thank you, Caleb. You're amazing.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
So as always, remember I'm saying Megan's part.
Speaker 6 (53:26):
Please Lola take it away.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
To follow your gut, watch out for red flags. Never
ever trust me, Bye Bye. Trust Me is produced by
Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 6 (53:44):
The special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
I'm u La Lola on Instagram and Olallalla on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
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