December 26, 2024 • 63 mins
You're a child living on a remote compound in West Texas. One day authorities show up at your front door and an exchange of gunfire breaks out. Just as you expected would happen. Survivor of the Branch Davidians and the Waco massacre, Joann Vaega, discusses her earliest memories of living on the compound, what cult leader David Koresh was like in person, why she did not feel fear when the siege began, how her mom bravely acted to save her, learning about the fire that killed 76 people, including her own parents, and how she's currently defying how people said she would turn out. Original Airdate: 08/03/2022
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:20):
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Speaker 3 (00:23):
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Speaker 2 (00:25):
I've never lived to you, and if you think that
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The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two
historians who've actually experienced it. I am Low LeBlanc and
I am Megan Elizabeth. And guys, we changed it to manipulation.
(00:45):
We thought it would better captured of the broader scope
of what we're trying to talk about here. It's not
just abuse of power, it's also all forms of manipulation.
So we did a little name change.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well maybe name I like it.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I like it too. Let us know if you approve
rate us five stars. Today, our guest is Joanne Viega,
survivor of the Branch Davidians and the Waco massacre.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We're going to.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Discuss her earliest memories of living on the compound in Waco, Texas,
what cult leader David Koresh was like in person, and
what it was like when the siege began, and why
fear wasn't the emotion she felt when she saw all
the dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
She'll tell us how her mom bravely acted to protect
her and get her safely out, even though it went
against everything they'd been taught, the terrifying transition period afterward,
and learning about the fire that killed seventy six people,
including her own parents, plus what her life's like now
and how she's thriving despite being told by adults that
she wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Is this a very emotional interview, be warned. But she's
amazing and I can't wait to get into it. So
we thought, instead of doing cultiest thing this week, we
would just kind of give a little background on the
branch Davidians, because some of you young folk might not
be familiar with this at the time. Very significant culturally
the story nineteen ninety three, y'all are too young. You're
born in like two thousand three.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Producer Steve has given us nineteen ninety three updates.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
He's obsessed with my French.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Became a symbole Snoop dog relea Is to his first album. Okay,
so some shit was happening, but some other tragic shit
was also happening.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, this was right up there with Heaven's Gate and
the Manson Family. This was a huge, major, major event.
A lot of people died. So just to give you
some contexts, let's start sort of at the beginning. This
is by no means a thorough history of this group
at all. The branch Davidians, this is present tense.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
They still exist.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
They still exist.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay, so they are an apocalyptic religious group. They were
founded in nineteen fifty five by Benjamin Rodent. They were
a branch off of the Seventh day Adventists originally. Over time,
the leadership changed hands. And that's something I always find
really interesting is the trajectory of a cult's leadership because spoiler,
(02:50):
most self proclaimed profits don't actually live forever, so they
need to be succeeded by someone. And in this case,
David Krush not the leader originally of this cult at all.
He shows up. He was a very religious young man.
He had an illegal sexual relationship with a young girl.
He did poorly in school. He shows up to this
(03:12):
existing group and it is speculated that the woman who
led it at the time, Lois Roden, who was in
her sixties. It is speculated that he began a sexual
relationship with her.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And her son wanted to take over.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, he was supposed to be the new.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Prophet because her husband died.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It was supposed to be George Roden. He was going
to be the next leader. David Koresh comes in and
his name was not David Koresh at the time. He
changed his name. We'll just refer to him by the
name we all know him as. Comes in and starts
trying to take over this group. And now there's this
rivalry between these two guys, which is again, this happens
in so many Mormon cults. It's so interesting to see
(03:50):
these themes of like rival prophets and also polygamy and
underage brides in a non Mormon cult. I really felt
like these were.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I think he took it a notch above the rest
and did probably one of the craziest things I've ever
heard in my entire life, where he challenged the other
one to a duel of resurrecting the dead. He said,
whichever one of us can resurrect a dead body first
will be the person who takes over this cult. So
then the other guy, George, is like, great, let's do it.
He gets a dead body, and then David calls the
(04:22):
police and is like he's defiling a dead body and
the police are like, what are you doing with this
dead body? And George is like, what, no, I promise
it's this is real.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So he's like, if you can't resurrect a body, like, well, yeah,
he just like took the body thing completely away, and
just like he trolled George to make him look insane
with the police, George got arrested for like messing around
with a dead body.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And David had the place to himself.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So in nineteen eighty nine, and this is how he
actually ended up in jail for real, George Roden murdered
this man Wayman Dale Adare with an axe blow to
the skull after Adare stated his belief that he himself
was the true Messiah. Totally different guy Rodin claimed the
man was sent by Koresh to kill him, and Rodin
was then judged insane and confined to a psychiatric hospital.
(05:14):
So basically, he's trying to pin it on Koresh, but
he's the one who gets confined to a psychiatric hospital.
This rivalry between these men is like incredibly interesting. So
fast forward. Now they have this group, they're living on
this compound together. They moved a few times, whatever, it
doesn't matter. Now it's starting to come out that there
are children who are being abused by him. His doctrine
(05:36):
of the House of David led to quote marriages with
both married and single women, And this is sort of,
at least from my understanding, this is one of the
things that kind of begins the investigation into the group
in general. There are at these allegations which seem to
be most likely true, and that is how we end
up nineteen ninety three, if you want to.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Look more into it. There was also something that happened
six months before that with Ruby Ray, where it was
kind of a similar thing, smaller and it's devastation, but
you can just kind of see where the world was
at at that time. And these two instances were what
Timothy McVeigh quoted as being the reason that he and
his partner did the Oklahoma City bombing.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Lots of contact with this cult incredibly significant moment in
the culture. Incredibly tragic and a total, absolute shit show.
Yeah on the part of the authorities. I mean, what
a fucking fuck up. Yeah, totally unnecessary. So anyway, that
brings us to now, and that brings us to our
conversation with Joanne.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Get your tissues ready, she is so plunderful.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Here we go. Welcome Joanne Viega to trust me. Thank you,
thank you for being here. I'm I'm really excited to
have you on today and also a little bit scared
that we're all gonna cry because your story is oh, oh,
(07:00):
it is a lot. It is wild. Started at the beginning,
So you basically grew up as a branch Davidian when
you were a young child. Do you have a sense
of like how your parents came to follow David Koresh.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Well, from what I gather, my parents were living in
Hawaii and David was at a church doing his normal
sermon and my mom I want to say that it
was my mom again, I had to hear this secondhand
from my sister because my parents are no longer around,
and I want to say it was my mom who
(07:36):
was just looking for something a little bit more in
life and more purpose, and so when she found David
and he was, you know, such a good speaker, she
kind of just was like, this is the way we're going.
We're going this way, and my dad and I had
to follow. So I don't really again, I don't really
(07:58):
know how it happened, but I you know, I think
everyone gets to the point where in their life where
you're kind of like asking yourself, like what do I do?
What's going on? Is all?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What's the meaning?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, And I think that's where she was, and just
by chance she met.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Dated incredibly charismatic man comes along who's also I was
surprised to see how handsome he was. Am I allowed
to say that, I feel like he's very which which
helps I do. I really do think that that's a
very important gathering followers.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Absolutely, What was his message? I was kind of trying
to start from the beginning, so I see that it
began a little bit. Second Coming of Christ was a
lot of his predecessors. Was that his thing as well?
Or did he kind of leave.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
That b I want to say if I because I
did a little bit of research on this too, and
I want to say because in the beginning, his rhetoric
was very I have the answers, I can show you,
you know, what your purpose in life is. And it
wasn't until later that he kind of changed his verbiage
and starts saying like I am the Son of God,
(09:01):
like I am the miracle and the answer. You know,
it's changed. I don't know the exact year, but you
do if you watch the progress of it. It kind
of starts with like, you know, we're a family, we
can all, you know, love God together, and it was
very inviting. And then somewhere along the lines you can
kind of notice that he started putting himself as the Messiah.
(09:26):
And you know, when you look at it now, all
these flags are very clear, but I think when you're
in the middle of it, you don't really notice these
small little changes that happened totally.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's over time. It's like a long ongoing process. You know.
It's like, yeah, little thing isn't going to raise that
many red flags, of course, and then it's just like
another little thing.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Do you think he believed what he was saying or
do you think he was more conning.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
That's a hard one. If I could give him the
benefit of the doubt, and the only reason why I
do that is because I I feel I wasn't there,
so I really don't know. I want to say that
he did believe in the beginning that he could help
a lot of people and that he could bring everyone
together and under the house of God. That's just a
(10:13):
common ground that everyone's on. And I do believe that
he started off like that. But then I do believe
if you watch he you can see that shift of like,
all these people are listening to me, I have the
absolute word, I can control all these people. And then
I believe it came to like an absolute con whether
(10:35):
it was him like one hundred percent being like I'm
going to do whatever the hell I want, or him
being like, oh, I don't know, let's test the waters,
but I do think it did switch.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It is interesting. I wonder if you or me, for example,
like suddenly had a bunch of people who are like,
we believe everything you say, you are our profit or whatever, like,
if that had never happened in his life, would he
have just like lived a regular life. And it's almost
almost like how you know if you have certain mental
illness predisposals, if you do LSD, it might trigger it.
(11:06):
It makes me wonder like, if you have that kind
of power over people, does that suddenly trigger this like
sociopathic side of you?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
You know?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, I would definitely say yes. I think that that's
something that maybe we all possess. But I think in
people like David who are just so very gifted in
the gab area where yeah, just whatever he says, everyone's like,
oh my god. More you know, I think in his
little DNA structure, maybe it was just a.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Little yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
He was there and it was waiting, but like it
got said off. Yeah. So let's talk about your own memories,
because this is the part I'm the most curious about.
So how old were you when you first were in
the Waco area?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I want to say maybe one or two? Wow, Okay,
I was very very young, I want to say, because
my sister was around when I was born. I was
born in Hawaii, and then when my mom decided to
move as to Texas, I don't think I was more
than two.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So your first memories then are probably.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, I don't have my first starting memories in Waco.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Wow, And what is that? What is that? Can I ask?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
No, I have little tidbits of just being alone. I
always like to describe it. I'm not sure if you
guys have seen those tea bag boxes that has like
the rolling hills and the woman's like picking tea. In
my mind, that's all I see is just like very,
very vast open fields. I was always by myself a
(12:41):
lot when I was younger. I don't remember having many
people around. I barely saw my father. I think the
earliest memory I have of him was us on a
motorcycle doing something we weren't supposed to be, just taking
a joy ride, which we weren't supposed to be doing.
But that's like the first and the most vivid memory
have of my dad. And I can't say that I
(13:01):
was more than five when that happened. Again, my timeline's
a little of course. Yeah. I just remember being alone
a lot in open fields and not really having anyone around,
which does sound a little odd when I say it
out loud.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What were your parents doing?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
That's a really good question I want to say at
the time we were living. I'm not sure if you've
seen a picture of the compound or anywhere on the property,
but it's like basically this really long road and what
you guys I th even are used to seeing. Is
that really big white building right when you come down
the road. But before that was there, if you just
(13:41):
kept continuing down the road, we each had like houses,
little little houses, and ours was like the very last
one on this road. I want to say they were
worship you know, I've one had worship time or you
know what the loly correct thing to say is. But
they were never around. And then I do remember they
were all building the big I don't know what it's called, it,
(14:03):
the big white building, and so that one I really
have no clue where any adult was when I was little,
like it was just like, okay, hopefully a coyote doesn't
eat you, and then you come and eat you know,
it's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
That's so interesting. Was that lonely or was it kind
of peaceful?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think it was really peaceful, And to me, when
I think about how independent I am and how solidarity
is really a driving force for me, I think it
really does stem from just having a lot of alone time.
And I didn't have a lot of influence from anyone else.
I just kind of wandered around and it was very peaceful.
(14:48):
I don't ever remember it being scary or upsetting that
no one was around. I found it really peaceful.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, as an introvert, it sounds quite heavenly right, live in.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
The dream I do.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Some of my favorite memories because I grew up on
a farm for like six years of my early years
or whatever, and some of my favorite memories are like
just going off into the woods and like looking at
the blackberries and talking to.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
The cows and turning over a rock and that was
always a fun one for me. Ooh, let's look this
rock exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That's exactly what it was like.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
What was your relationship with your mom like at that age?
I mean, you know you didn't see your dad that much.
Did you see your mom a little bit more than him?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, And I want to say my memories were of
my mom at a younger age was a little bit well,
I mean, since my dad wasn't around, she was the
one that was always disciplining. And yeah, I don't have
like anything super scarring, but I definitely have a feeling
of like my mom was a sing It's like having
(15:53):
a single mom. She has to be the mom, the dad,
the babysitter, the everything. And it was always just fun
and games, did.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You have many interactions directly with David Koresh.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I did not, because I was not his child. He
was definitely more involved, and I felt like it was
a little bit more segregated because his children obviously were
the son of the Messiahs, so they were you know,
very high end and the rest were not. So I
(16:26):
don't have any really big interactions with him, but I
do know that all of the ones I do have
are quite scary, so I try to kind of keep
those on the down low.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Can you tell us about some of them.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, I remember sneaking out my mom was in a
exercise class. We were upstairs somewhere in the big white building,
and I remember I wasn't supposed to be there, but
I was looking for my mom and I kind of
came in and I sat down right behind her, like
everyone was facing the front of the room and I
had sat down behind her and I was just, you know,
(17:03):
kind of playing around and she didn't really mind. And
then David walked in and I just remember having like
the fear of God put in me because it was like,
I know, I wasn't supposed to be there. I was
probably supposed to be at some worship time or whatever,
and I was just stuck, and I remember my mom
kind of putting her hands behind her to kind of
(17:24):
like silence me and be like, Okay, you need to
stay still. And I just remember just like fearing for
my life because that was that was after the time
where really any adult could spank any child, what like
it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, they let any adults, you know,
(17:44):
because I think the thought process was when the end
of the world came and when these bad people came
to kill us, that an adult, any adult was supposed
to be able to have complete control over this child,
to direct them or to you know, do whatever it
is that we needed to do in that moment. So
all the children were conditioned to listen to any adult
(18:07):
at the snap of a finger, and we all knew
that if we didn't, it was like severe spanking. And
so you feared basically every adult you came across, because
if you did one thing wrong, that's like any adult
could be looking at you and that that's a spanking.
That's just that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, I can imagine all that solitude was peaceful. Then.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, I remember getting spanked once by my mom's friend
on our way home from school. It was so traumatizing.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Like mom's friend.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, we were like carpooling with this little girl in
my same age and this little girl and I like
got She kept telling me she was going to a
museum and I kept going, I know, I've been there,
because I was like three years old, and she would
be like it has this there and I was like,
I know, I've been there, and her mom just turned
around and spanked the absolute shit out of me. And
it was so traumatizing. So are you being spanked by
(19:01):
other people? Like on the on the regular?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
What on the regular? It was? You know, we had
in the big white building. Sorry if I'm being repetitive.
We had the women were on the top floor and
my bedroom that we shared with it was me my
mom on one side on a bunk bed, and we
had we were living with another woman on the other side,
(19:26):
she had the other bed. Every night they would go
down and do a worship group for hours and hours,
so just the kids were stuck upstairs, and I remember
we'd kind of like poke her head out of the
out of the rooms and kind of be like, hey,
are you up. Any other kid across the hall would
be like, yeah, I'm up. And we didn't cheat with
each other, you know, because we had no adults around.
(19:47):
And I remember my the lady that was living with us,
had come upstairs to I don't know what she was doing,
but she'd come upstairs and she saw all of us
kind of talking to each other and poking her heads out,
and she immediate came into she lived in our room.
Kim immediately came to me and just spank the shit
at me. It was like, you know, you're not supposed
(20:07):
to be out of bed, you know you're not supposed
to be talking. And after that it was like, no,
we're talking. Groups. For us, we were scared, so sad, and.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
It sounds so fun too. That sounds so fun. Wow, cool,
thanks for taking that away.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I know in terms of what the group believed, what
was your conception of that?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Oh well, I think when every adult tells you the
same story as a child, you kind of have no
choice but to believe it. And all we knew is
we were preparing for this big war. We were God's
chosen people because we chose to believe David Koresh and
we chose to follow him, that we would be saved.
(20:51):
Everyone else was going to die, we were going to
be saved and we're going to go to heaven and
our family would be together. And you know, it was
and I did have my sister in my life, it
was very minimal. She would call every once in a while.
I remember talking to you on the phone. But I
also remember thinking like, okay, well, if we all die,
(21:12):
like we go to heaven, she's not coming with us.
Like that's gonna suck. You know, Like you kind of
start to put these things together. It doesn't really make
complete sense because an adults telling you, like without a doubt, like, okay,
well when we're all going to die, you know you'll
be saved, so it doesn't matter. Just you'll be with
your parents. And because we all chose to believe David,
(21:32):
so you grew up with that mentality. And that's why
when we were attacked by the ATF, I didn't think
it was abnormal. I didn't think because you have everyone
telling you, you know, these bad people are going to
come and they're going to kill you, and so we actually,
you know, even more to back up David, were like, hey,
what he said was true. We this is it, Like
(21:55):
this is what we've been waiting for so for me,
it wasn't. I just thought it was another day. I'm like, hey, yeah,
this is how it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Where was your sister? How much old her was she is?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
She she's eighteen years older than me. Oh wow, okay,
So she chose to stay in Hawaii. She wanted nothing
to do with David. She wanted nothing to do with
my parents' involvement in the branch debating group. Which good
for her, you know, I think at twenty five, I
don't even remember like what my core beliefs were at
(22:28):
twenty five. But for her to be like, I'm not
doing that, I think takes a big amount of guts.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, So you guys would talk regularly and you
have this like connection with someone.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, she would send me books and little art those
little plastic things that you open and it has like
all the little art supplies in it and stuff like that.
So I remember her being there. I don't, of course,
I had no idea what she looked like. I had
no idea where she was. I just remember talking to
her briefly every once in a while and knowing that
(23:01):
she was there.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I guess just one more question about David, which is
just like did you get like a sense of magic
around him, Like did he feel like a prophet? Or
was he just kind of a scary adult?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
He was like the most scary adult. He Like, there's
nothing about him that made you feel comfortable. I want
to even say, if I can even reach this far,
I want to even say, as an adult looking at David,
I think everyone was kind of scared out of their
pants because he has this. I mean when we're all together.
I'm sure in the beginning it didn't seem so out
(23:39):
of place or that he was this fearful figure, But
towards the end, just any time you looked at him,
he just was like you just wanted to die, Like
you just want to like shrivel down and be like
I'm so sorry, Like I don't know what it was.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
It's like the scariest person I've probably ever met in
my life. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, they always devolve right and get so paranoid and
like agitated.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
So this is all happening in the early nineties, right,
So in nineteen ninety three, there was an article published
saying that he was a polygamist who was taking underage brides.
Is that was that true? Do you know?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We heard little rumors, you know, as kids, because I
think we all knew as kids that that's what was
going on, and we had heard rumors that there was
a specific girls. She had long blonde hair. I don't
know who exactly she was, and I definitely don't want
to put a name out there because I'm not one
hundred percent sure, but we all knew, like, and she
(24:46):
was probably fourteen, we all knew that she was going
to be David's next wife. We as kids, we all
kind of were like, that's the one. That's the one.
I don't know, And of course, you know, we hear
kids absorb everything from their surroundings, So I'm not sure
who would have started that, but that was like common
knowledge for all the kids to kind of know that
(25:09):
he was taking other wives. And I don't know how
many there were. I don't know any of that stuff, but.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, was the brainwashing so intense that it's like, oh, lucky,
like you're the prophet's wife, or are are you still
a little kid who's like ew, no, please not me.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I was a little kid, and I just wanted to
make sure that would never be me. Because and I
did kind of figure, if you like, if were stating
the obvious that David had a type. Right, I am Asian,
so I'm like, ooh, I'm gonna I'm never gonna be
in that that lane, so all right, you know, but
(25:46):
he definitely, he definitely had a type. And I think
all of us were like, Okay, we've all checked that box.
We're not going in that direction. So it's okay.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Wow. So that article comes out and it seems to
be I mean, obviously there's so many factors that sort
of lead to the siege, but it seems like that
is sort of one of the initial.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Red flags for people.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm curious. Were you guys aware
of that in the group? Did the paranoia begin because
of that? Or is just an unrelated detail.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
For I think that me being that young, I want
to say, it wasn't really on our forefront of things
that we understood really or kept tabs on. I know
that my mom had reached out to my sister a
couple times and was asking to leave, and she wanted
to she wanted to get out of there. Yeah, And
(26:39):
I don't know what caused that because she was so
very adamant that David was the answer. So for her
to make that kind of switch where she was like,
I can't do this, I'm out something significant I think
had to trigger her morals for her to be like,
that's not right right, and it just didn't happen. David
would not let her go. He it was just no
(27:02):
one was allowed to leave. And I think she I
want to say, my sister told me she tried to
escape once, but she couldn't take me, so she came back.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Oh no, Okay, So let's get into the siege a
little bit, because you directly experienced this the beginning of
this horrible thing, and I mean, I guess you sort
of said it when it first happened. It wasn't surprising
because he'd been talking about how the end of the
(27:34):
world was coming.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
And you're like, Okay, it's starting, it's happening. Cool.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, But so there are gunshots, Like what did it
actually look like?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So I again, because our bedroom was on the second floor,
and I could look down to the front from our room,
I could look down to the front of the door
of the building, and then you can also see the driveway.
I just remember it being one of those mornings, didn't
(28:03):
seem like much. My mom came in told me to
get dressed. I was in pajamas and she didn't get dressed.
We're gonna go and eat, and of course, like a
little kid, I did not listen. And I definitely took
my time. I want to say. It was like maybe
halfway out of pajamas when this started, and I just
I looked out the window and all you see is
(28:24):
just little black dots coming down the road and I
just kind of looked at it, and it just from
there was just like a hail of gunfire. It just
was like these loud blasts all over all crazy. And
my mom ran in. She was downstairs, She ran in,
grabbed me off the bunk bed, put me on the floor,
(28:46):
she put she laid on top of me, and she
just said, you know, you have to be quiet. And
it was just like all all hill and I that
memory stops right then, so I and that you know,
that was days hours of gunfire, so I don't know
exactly when that ended. And I just remember thinking, well,
(29:07):
that's this is it. You know, this is where we die, so.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You're expecting to die, and like, yeah, then go right
to heaven or whatever.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, that was the deal. That's what every adult had
told you, and you believed it. You had nothing else
to go by. And when it comes, you know, semi true,
like you feel like, well, this is exactly what everyone
had said was going to happen, and here we are.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
So I believed in a prophet when I was a kid,
not for as long, and you know, it didn't end
as tragically, although there were some bad things that happened,
but I remember that feeling of like, oh, yeah, like
the end is coming and like then we're going to
be a part of the final battle or whatever and
we'll be immediately brought to heaven. This is exciting. He
was never that explicit in like what that would actually
(29:52):
look like, but I'd been taught in just regular Mormonism
my whole life up to that point that like the
Second Coming was coming and like shit was going to
go down and we would all be chosen or whatever.
So I think like on some level, if that had
happened to me, I would have been like a little
bit excited, like it's it's here, We're doing it. We're
(30:12):
the chosen people. God's picked the time, Like hell yeah,
you know.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I don't remember being scared at all, Like there was
not one one part of me that was like this
doesn't feel right or should this really be happening? Like
it was like all right, well here we are, here.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
We go wow wow.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Six branch Davidians died in that first round of gunfire,
and then and four like a government agents. I think,
did you did you see them?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Again? My timeline during that also probably has skipped around
a little bit. I do remember walking through our hallway
because we had they had first moved all the children
and the women who were at the front part of
the building there was like all rooms, a hallway and
then another set of rooms. They had moved us to
(31:05):
the back end of the building and put the kids
under the bunk beds. In order to get out of that,
you had to go down the hall, to go downstairs
to like where the cafeteria was, where the church was,
what the front door was, and there was no other exit.
It was just the one way down the hall. And
(31:27):
I do remember walking to get downstairs and seeing a
bunch of bodies kind of lying on the floor and
to me and every you know you can see And
this was at night when we had no electricity and
there was just the search lights that they put on,
the really bright searchlights on the building, and from that
(31:47):
you can see all the gun holes in the walls
as you walk down the hall, and it really is
one of those scary movies where you just it's pitched black,
the only light you have had is coming from outside,
and it's just all gun holes everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, it was very serene. It was not fearful. I
wasn't like, holy crap, what has just happened. It was
more like a right, okay, just waiting, waiting for the
ax drop, I guess.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, so as somebody who's also told the end of
time is about to come at all moments of my life,
I think I would have been much more terrified than
both of you. I think I would have totally flipped out.
But there is that feeling of like at least it's
finally happening and about to be over, like the axe
has fallen. I can really relate to.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
You know, Yeah, I think you kind of just wander
around being like, so, well, am I still alive? Yeah?
What's happening?
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
They didn't tell you this? Right?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Wow? But It is just so crazy that they just
show up and start fucking shooting at people. There's kids
in there, there kids in there, there's I mean, like
they had a warrant for David's arrest, and they had
a search warrant. How the fuck does that turn into
like killing spray just spraying bullets to the point where
(33:12):
the walls are covered in bullets like that is insane.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
How many kids were in there?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I don't h twenty seven.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
I think twenty three.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh, that is wild.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I mean, and you know the branch Davidians are shooting
back right, there's there. It's an exchange of gunfire. But
it's like, why why did it even have to begin
this way?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
How many days were you there? If you know.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Oh, I don't have an exact date. And of course
remember we also were not schooled, so for me, like,
we had no idea what days were, what dates were,
what punts were, what time was? Really no clue. They
did not school us at all. The only thing we
were schooled in was just Bible knowledge.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So that would they teach you to read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
They they would like highlight they would say, here's a
passage you want to look at. This and highlight every
time you see the word God, and that's the only
word you really need. Have nothing to do with what
was happening. I could not read as soon as I
got out. It was just like you start from negative five,
(34:28):
not even ground zero.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I am so impressed with you, just yeah, no words.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Wow, you're obviously incredibly intelligent and made up for that
lack of education in your childhood. But that is that's insane.
So some amount of time you were there.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, I want to say, was if I can kind
of take a stab, I want to say, it's like
a week to two weeks. I remember it being because
in my mind, I think I only have maybe five
memories of that whole time. And that's why I don't
know who said. They're like, oh, you're in there for
like a week or two weeks. I was like, but
how is that possible? Because they only have like five
(35:07):
memories of that, So I don't know where that time went.
I'm sure somewhere in my psyche, you know. They kind
of shut everything down and was like, Okay, this is
not appropriate for a six year old to be going through,
so we're going to shut all that down. And I
haven't got any of it back, So I really don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, I mean this is a very specific logistical question.
But like, while there's all of this gunfire being exchanged,
what are you doing for meals? Like how are you
just like getting through the days?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So David had stockpiled Mr e. Those military meals. Oh
I remember having like seeing in the cafeteria just a
wall of just boxes of food. And it was again
just preparation for the end of time. So in that regard,
he was prepared, and.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That you had them in your house, Like are you yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
You just went downstairs and grabbed a box or whatever.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
And oh, because you guys are living in the big
white building at this point, Yeah, I see, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Oh yeah, And there were other children obviously experiencing this
with you.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, I didn't see any of them. I'm not sure
where everyone kind of dispersed to. I just know that
when I was moved from my bedroom to the back
part of the upstairs, I was with one other girl
and we were just underneath the bed and put like
pillows and everything, like as if a pillow is going
(36:40):
to help. But they had put pillows all the way
around underneath the bed for us, and they just kind
of shoved us in there, and so you're just waiting
in the dark. Yeah, you know, listening to the chaos happening.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh my gosh, did.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
They do different things with his children? Do you remember
what happened to them?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So David had a separate wing of the building. So
when you go through the front door, you can take
a left and you can go upstairs for all the
women and children. Where we were downstairs was the men.
If you went straight back, it was the church, and
(37:19):
then behind the church above like you kind of went
behind it and went up the stairs. Theres was his apartment.
So that's where he lived. And I want to say
he lived with his wife. I don't know when, but
that was his place. So I want to say all
(37:39):
the kids were his children were with him.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
What Okay, So tell us about how your mom makes
a move to protect you at this point.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
So she, I mean, again, from what I can gather,
she already knew that this was not right, her trying
to escape, her trying to leave. So I think in
the moment when she realized that kids were being released,
she really advocated, like, you know, she's not your daughter,
(38:20):
she has nothing to do with you. She's not the
chosen one. Let her go, and she came back. I
just remember her saying, you know, hold on one second,
I'm going to go talk to David. And she came
back and she said, you're getting out of here, and
she like, as fast as you possibly can.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Sorry, thout, you're good, You're good, as fast as any
person possibly can.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
You know, gather as many things that you have to
put on your child. And she just as fast as
she could grab my arm, took me downstairs and was
like you're going, Like that's it. There's no questions, there
was nothing that she was so very confident in that decision.
(39:12):
And I think that her as a mom, her instincts,
everything about her as being a mom just kind of
kicked in all at once right then and there, because
she also understood that by releasing me, she would never
be able to go. So that I think is like
the biggest sacrifice as a parent that you can make,
(39:37):
and like, really, you know, be in that moment to
like make that decision. She there was no second questioning.
Was she was so dead set, sorry, Oh my.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Gosh, no, you are totally fine. We're yeah, we're in Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So why does her making the decision for you to go.
I mean, she can ever go because because she has
no leverage anymore of like how to get out or.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Well, there was only talk of releasing children. I'm not
sure if there was ever a conversation of releasing adults.
And I think when she put everything together, she realized
it probably was never really about an adult. Leaving was like,
get the kids out. If you are a mom and
(40:26):
you really have come to the realization that this is
not the Messiah. He is not the person that he
said he was going to be, and he was not
going to be able to deliver all these promises that
he said he was. You know, your your reality kind
of sinks in and she just was like take you know,
take her, just get her out, and she was. She was.
(40:50):
Both my parents were extremely strong because I when I
was leaving, I got to say goodbye to both my parents,
and I don't remember either of them crying because I mean,
if you think about it, if you had told me
that we were supposed to die and we would all
be together, and then all of a sudden plans change,
(41:11):
I'm handing you over to these bad people. So I
told you for the first six years of your life,
that they were going to kill you and that they
were bad, and you don't ever talk to them. If
you see them, you run, you tell an adult. And
now I'm handing you to these people. And I am
not going to be with you, like it's such a
different mental state to be in, and just you have
(41:34):
to go. You have to go with it. And as
a kid, you know, we were taught to listen to adults.
Just that's the only thing. So I didn't question it.
I didn't I didn't understand really fully what it meant
at the time, but I just knew that my parents said,
you have to go. They were not upset, they weren't crying,
(41:55):
they weren't like in fear. It was just a very
calm life. You have to go. And she put her
necklace and a note for my sister in my pocket,
in my jacket and she just set me out the
door and that was that was it.
Speaker 7 (42:14):
That is yeah, I just yeah, I'm I am marveling
at the strength that it would take to do that,
when they were so indoctrinated into this.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Idea that this these desks would be a good thing,
these would mean you would be together. You know, you'd
been waiting for this, and I just like that that
leap that it takes to be like, I'm actually gonna
defy everything I've believed for the past, however many years,
to save my daughter.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Like and she did an interview. I remember seeing her
if she's in a truck, and she was asked if
she believed that David Koresh was son of God, and
her response was, I hope so, And that to me
(43:08):
was like if there was ever a time to know
that she did not believe that that was true, that
was it. But that came from her own words. She
had every choice to say one hundred percent, we're here,
we one believe this, Yeah, and her her choice of
word was I.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Hope so, oh, thank god she was doubting. I mean,
thank thank God, that's why you're here. Like that's yeph.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I just I that the unwinding that she did, and
how quickly and how like it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, my mom works a lot of people with a
lot of people who are exiting the group that they're
in and like it's a it's a long process like
that is like so anyway, it's just an amazing It's
just an amazing decision.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very thankful.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And so you left and and then what they just
like take you? And was it scary?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
It was scary. It's and it doesn't when I'm gonna
say this out loud, it doesn't sound scary. But in
my mind, when you have no experience whatsoever, like a
flushing toilet scared the shit out of me. Wow. Taking
a bath like a bubble bath scared the absolute craft
(44:28):
out of me.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
The first time running water at all, no running water,
no electricity, no. Wow, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Realize it was. I want to say we had electricity,
but I don't think we had running water okay, because
we did not have toilets or baths. For baths, we
had a big tin bath and then we had to
fill it up with water and then take it out. Wow.
So it was not it was nothing. It wasn't like
the luxuries of having a flushing toilet now, so for me,
(45:00):
and I thought it was I thought it was definitely
a trick. And I thought I was going to get spanked.
You know, every time I was supposed flush the toilet
or take a bath, I definitely thought like, holy shit,
like I'm gonna get spanked this is not normal. This
is not how we do things. And it took a
lot of unwinding for me to start over and to
(45:21):
start from scratch for the basic things that you know
everyone has. Now, we had never watched movies, so for me,
I think the first movie we saw was The Little Mermaid.
They took us to a home. I got a shelter,
a home where all the kids were staying, and they
(45:42):
let us watch movies. They let us know, play sports,
have candy, have soda. It was just one of those
things where you think, I'm definitely gonna get spanked if
I if I take a sip of this, and a
lot of the videos that I have seen had I was.
I was always in the background by myself kind of
(46:05):
just like this is not you know, this is not right.
I definitely feel like I'm gonna get spanked or punished
or this. This is just not right. I was very
It's hard to watch those those videos and see just
how how mentally insecure I was in like the basic things, Well.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
It makes total sense. It's the only thing you'd ever known, like, yeah,
this is everything, goes against everything you've ever been taught.
With a bunch of strangers like why why would you
be immediately.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
On board not only strangers, but like the enemy, the.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Enemy, Yeah yeah, the enemy.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah yeah, and I mean the Little Mermaid.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Imagine never seeing a movie and then you're just watching Likesla. Yeah,
it was it amazing? Was it terrifying?
Speaker 3 (46:52):
The first one. I think we all we watched it
and all of us were like, what the hell just happened?
And then we were like we can we repeat that?
And so we just had it like non stop, the
same movie over and over. For me, So, my sister's
name is Ursula and my mom name is Ursula, So
(47:13):
for me, I was like, yeah, I was like, holy yeah,
who is it? Of course I ended up the villain,
but no, that's all right, kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Actually yeah, her own person doing some shit.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yeah sure, yeah, I was slow, super cool, like the
stealing voices from ladies. And how long was it before
you were living with your sister?
Speaker 6 (47:38):
I don't think it was more than a couple weeks.
Maybe again, timelines are not great with me.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
She had to go through a lot of fighting in court,
and I think what had ultimately became the deciding factor
was the note that my mom had left in my
jacket was basically saying that my sister was now my guardian.
That's who she wanted me to go with. Right, And
(48:07):
so she's writing this note in the middle of all
that chaos, knowing that an outcome needed to happen, and
that's what she wrote, like, your sister is now your guardian,
that's who I'm trusting.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
That's incredible foresight against right, very impressive.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Oh wow. But then I moved to Hawaii and that again,
you want to talk about scary times, is like going
to school for the first time, is you know, children
are relentless in their beliefs. As a child, because you're
so solely believing one thing, she don't know how to
think for yourself. Really, and going to school, I remember
(48:45):
being teased for not having parents, for not having my
parents around, and it was really rough. It was definitely rough.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Did you feel a connection with your sister, I mean
you'd never met, but you talked enough.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, it was immediate. And I had no idea who
you know what she looked like. I had no idea.
I was just brought to an office and she was
sitting in there with a social worker or someone, and
I just remember like as soon as I locked eyes
with her. I was like, that's my sister, and I
just crawled into her lap and she was my safe
zone and she's been my safe zone for a very
(49:22):
long time.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Wow. So the Waco siege lasted for fifty one days,
which is absolutely insane. How did you get the news
about the fire?
Speaker 3 (49:41):
My sister every morning would turn on the TV before
I'd go to school and watch the news. And that
morning she turned it on and it was just everything
was up in flames, and she just, immediately, she was
so quick turned off the TV. I don't even think
(50:03):
I had a chance to see what was on the TV.
She turned it off. She said, all right, let's get
you to school, and as if nothing had happened. And
I went to school, had no idea what was happening,
and she said she just pulled over and cried.
Speaker 6 (50:21):
And I think it's hard for me to think about
this because not only did I go through this experience,
but she did too.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
She was I don't want to say burden, but she
definitely had a lot of things she had to deal
with that she did not sign up for. Yeah, so
she was definitely a rock. And then she picked me
up from school, said you know, we need to talk,
and you know, mom unfortunately has died. And my response
(50:51):
to her just was like, yeah, I know, like you
guys told me that this was going to happen, like
I wasn't. I was again, very calm, very just a
matter of fact, like that was a fact. Yes, wow,
And she I think that might have scared her a
little bit, if I could be honest. But yeah, and
(51:15):
then from then, I think every adult in my life
has tried to be a little bit more kind to
I think they all waited for the acts to drop,
as if I were going to lose it or like
I was not expecting this that your parents unfortunately passed,
and you know it would all hit me at one time,
(51:35):
and it didn't. It just was like very like even
to this day, I don't ever really cry when I
hear that back because it was so it was just
a fact to me, Like okay, so.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, seventy six people died that day, including twenty something children.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Is so crazy. It's just so crazy, dud.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, when you think about your mom, now, what do
you think, like, what do you hold on to?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I think of her and I think, yeah, she made
this decision to be part of a group that she
thought was going to give her the answer she was
looking for in her life. And I think everyone kind
of gets to that cross point where you figure, what's
going on with you know, my life?
Speaker 6 (52:29):
What am I doing?
Speaker 3 (52:31):
And it doesn't really matter to me how she got there.
It doesn't matter what where she was in her own
growth journey or not even growth journey, whatever, It doesn't
matter because when the time came for her to make
the most crucial decision, she didn't question. She just I
(52:52):
think in her every moral fiber of her being, she
knew what was right. Yeah, and she made, you know,
just the most difficult decision that any parent can make.
And that's what defines her in the end. Like, it
has nothing to do with how she got here, It
has nothing to do with her battles that she fought
(53:14):
while she was there or any of it. It doesn't
matter to me. It matters to me that she found herself,
she found what she knew was right, and she went
with it.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, she's a hero.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, she protected you when it was the most important,
and that's the important thing to remember. It seems like,
what's your life like now, h.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
I have three beautiful boys, my husband and I work
in our family restaurant in San Francisco. I am right
now the pastry chef there. And my eldest son, Logan,
who's sixteen. He has definitely been my rock during a
(54:02):
lot of growing through being a parent. He comes to
work with me every three days a week. He works
with me. I'm just trying very hard to raise kind
gentle men for this world because I feel like that's
definitely what is needed right now. So I have a
(54:23):
four month boy. When we found out we were pregnant,
I was so sure. I said, you know what, I'm ready.
If now is ever the time, I'm ready to raise
a strong woman. If that's my lot in life, I
can do it. I have the energy, I have the patience.
I would love to raise a strong woman that was
(54:44):
not the choice that was made. And a good friend
of mine because she knew how disappointed I was, because
I was so very set, I said, this world needs
a strong woman. I am ready to do that. And
what am I going to do? I have another boy,
And she gently reminded me. She said, you know, I
(55:06):
think the world does have enough strong women in it
right now. I think what we are lacking is just
kind men.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Good men.
Speaker 3 (55:13):
So if that's the journey you're supposed to be on
and you have three opportunities to do that, I think
that's where you should be. And I just kind of
was like, oh, holy shit, you're right, damn it.
Speaker 6 (55:26):
So I gave up the idea of raising a strong
woman and I am trying to raise kind and gentlemen
who you.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
Know, have a little bit of a backbone but still
can contribute kindness because I think we definitely need that. Now.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
I love that perspective so much. I think that that
is an excellent point that your friend made because right there,
most of the problems in this world are men who
are afraid to be soft or vulnerable. Yeah, or I
should say, are have root causes in dynamics involving then
you know, I don't want to say it's men's fault,
(56:04):
but you know what I mean. So, yeah, I think
that's incredibly important. And just based on this conversation, I
would guess you're doing an excellent job of doing that.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
Oh thank you. I really do try. It's hard work.
Every day.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I read something that I'm not sure it is true.
It was like an article, but it said that a
social worker or somebody. When you first got out, I
was telling you, like, you're not going to be a
good person. Is that?
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Yeah? I mean they told my sister to basically make
sure I continue therapy because the chances that I would
grow up to be a you know, obomber was very likely.
Oh my, or you know, a mass murderer was basically
what everyone thought I would be.
Speaker 7 (56:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yeah, so I'm not sure where that study.
Speaker 5 (56:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Wow. I was hoping you'd be like, no, that's not real. Okay,
that was real. So you've just like shown up in
everyone's faces and have a beautiful life.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
And yeah, well I think when you hear when you
hear that, you know, at a young age, you kind
of think like, I really would like that to not
be true, and your decision making from then kind of
fears you the opposite, right as, I don't really know
how I got.
Speaker 6 (57:27):
To this point, if I can be honest.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
But it's just a day in and day out, small
decisions that are made to make sure that I do
not kill a bunch of it.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Sounds like though, that you had this wonderful sister who
really like guided you through what could have been really
which probably was a very rocky tumultuous time, but having
that person can make all the difference in the world.
Not that you would have ever been a mass that's
but I just had a term in terms of like
turning out relatively healthy and balanced and well adjusted all
(58:05):
things considered.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yeah, we had some growing pains. I'm not gonna say
that it was you know, rainbows and sunshine. We definitely
went through a lot of growing pains and we had
a lot of discovering and growth to do between the
two of us to kind of navigate and make sure
both of us got out of this alive, so to speak.
(58:29):
And you just need one person. You need a village
when it comes to raising children. I think that's the thing,
because raising a child on your own is freaking crazy.
So to single moms who do it, holy freakin cow,
I salute you. But I do think that it just
if you have one person in your life who tells
you and means it when they say, like you're enough,
(58:53):
that's it's just one. You just need one. You don't
need every single person that you come across to tell
you that. You just need one that you trust, and
that's it. You're not every day you're enough.
Speaker 2 (59:06):
Imagine your story will be very inspiring to our listeners
because we have a fair amount of listeners who had
their own either cultic or abusive, or just like general
traumatic experiences, and it's so inspiring to see when someone
comes out of something that's so extreme and so difficult
and just like.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I do want to just say,
because I've been asked a lot. I have kids in
high school who reach out and ask me to answer
their questions for a school project that they do. And
I've been noticing lately that it has been a majority
of people who write to me that are in high school,
(59:48):
who say, you know, we're learning about this in history class,
and I was just hoping you'd be able to answer
some questions and talk to me. And as I get older,
and I realized that this isn't something that everyone has
grown up with on the news. They're obviously very different
problems happening today. I think my main goal to tell
(01:00:12):
these kids, and I tell each one of them like
you're enough, Like I just want you to know that
in school, because people don't tell you in high school,
they don't tell you in middle school or elementary school.
We weren't raised with parents who nurture us in a
way where it's always a comfortable growth. I think our
generation before us has been very rough, So I do
(01:00:35):
want to make it a thing where I tell these
kids before you get to being an adult and have
to figure it out on your own, and no one's
ever told you that you were enough, that you're enough.
That's really just my that's my hoshpiel. I just want
to make sure that kids hear it from someone that
they're enough, because I never heard it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
So, yeah, you don't have to be like that influencer
on Instagram or where it in a particular body or
whatever it is there. I can't imagine we're just talking
about this, but I cannot imagine being a kid right now.
It's very very hard. So yeah, well, thank you so
so much for coming on. This is truly an amazing
conversation and you just seem like such an awesome person,
(01:01:16):
and yeah, really appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (01:01:20):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
All right, Megan, time for the question. Would you join
this cult?
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
To be fair? Living on a compound sounds pretty fun.
As you've mentioned, he's very good looking. I don't necessarily agree,
but if I found him good looking, it might be influential. Yeah,
I could see myself hanging out down in the big
white building for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Down in the big white building. That's a song title
for sure.
Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
I think that the religious element would maybe make it
not one of mine. Oh yeah, the religious element is
not fun, yeah, but commune living like sure. Actually the
parts where she's describing just like being on her own
in this beautiful, my natural setting. I'm like, that sounds great.
I would do that for sure, and like the sleeve
(01:02:04):
over vibes. Yeah, with the kids, but then other you know,
minus the punishing adults. Who knows.
Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
It was a really particular time, a really particular religion.
Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
But I can see why people got sucked on me too.
Thank you guys for spending another week listening to us.
We can't wait to see you here again next week.
Remember to follow your gut, watch out forrad flags, and
never ever trust trust me Hi later.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
The special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me cult pod, or on TikTok At,
Trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hits on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Remember to rate and review and spread work.
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight, or.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Showed us an email at trust Me pod at gmail
dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me, trust me.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I've never lived to you, and if you think that
one person has all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me.
The podcast about cult, extreme belief and manipulation from two
historians who've actually experienced it. I am Low LeBlanc and
I am Megan Elizabeth. And guys, we changed it to manipulation.
(00:45):
We thought it would better captured of the broader scope
of what we're trying to talk about here. It's not
just abuse of power, it's also all forms of manipulation.
So we did a little name change.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Well maybe name I like it.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I like it too. Let us know if you approve
rate us five stars. Today, our guest is Joanne Viega,
survivor of the Branch Davidians and the Waco massacre.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
We're going to.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Discuss her earliest memories of living on the compound in Waco, Texas,
what cult leader David Koresh was like in person, and
what it was like when the siege began, and why
fear wasn't the emotion she felt when she saw all
the dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
She'll tell us how her mom bravely acted to protect
her and get her safely out, even though it went
against everything they'd been taught, the terrifying transition period afterward,
and learning about the fire that killed seventy six people,
including her own parents, plus what her life's like now
and how she's thriving despite being told by adults that
she wouldn't.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Is this a very emotional interview, be warned. But she's
amazing and I can't wait to get into it. So
we thought, instead of doing cultiest thing this week, we
would just kind of give a little background on the
branch Davidians, because some of you young folk might not
be familiar with this at the time. Very significant culturally
the story nineteen ninety three, y'all are too young. You're
born in like two thousand three.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Producer Steve has given us nineteen ninety three updates.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
He's obsessed with my French.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Became a symbole Snoop dog relea Is to his first album. Okay,
so some shit was happening, but some other tragic shit
was also happening.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, this was right up there with Heaven's Gate and
the Manson Family. This was a huge, major, major event.
A lot of people died. So just to give you
some contexts, let's start sort of at the beginning. This
is by no means a thorough history of this group
at all. The branch Davidians, this is present tense.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
They still exist.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
They still exist.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Okay, so they are an apocalyptic religious group. They were
founded in nineteen fifty five by Benjamin Rodent. They were
a branch off of the Seventh day Adventists originally. Over time,
the leadership changed hands. And that's something I always find
really interesting is the trajectory of a cult's leadership because spoiler,
(02:50):
most self proclaimed profits don't actually live forever, so they
need to be succeeded by someone. And in this case,
David Krush not the leader originally of this cult at all.
He shows up. He was a very religious young man.
He had an illegal sexual relationship with a young girl.
He did poorly in school. He shows up to this
(03:12):
existing group and it is speculated that the woman who
led it at the time, Lois Roden, who was in
her sixties. It is speculated that he began a sexual
relationship with her.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
And her son wanted to take over.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Yes, he was supposed to be the new.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Prophet because her husband died.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It was supposed to be George Roden. He was going
to be the next leader. David Koresh comes in and
his name was not David Koresh at the time. He
changed his name. We'll just refer to him by the
name we all know him as. Comes in and starts
trying to take over this group. And now there's this
rivalry between these two guys, which is again, this happens
in so many Mormon cults. It's so interesting to see
(03:50):
these themes of like rival prophets and also polygamy and
underage brides in a non Mormon cult. I really felt
like these were.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I think he took it a notch above the rest
and did probably one of the craziest things I've ever
heard in my entire life, where he challenged the other
one to a duel of resurrecting the dead. He said,
whichever one of us can resurrect a dead body first
will be the person who takes over this cult. So
then the other guy, George, is like, great, let's do it.
He gets a dead body, and then David calls the
(04:22):
police and is like he's defiling a dead body and
the police are like, what are you doing with this
dead body? And George is like, what, no, I promise
it's this is real.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
So he's like, if you can't resurrect a body, like, well, yeah,
he just like took the body thing completely away, and
just like he trolled George to make him look insane
with the police, George got arrested for like messing around
with a dead body.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
And David had the place to himself.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
So in nineteen eighty nine, and this is how he
actually ended up in jail for real, George Roden murdered
this man Wayman Dale Adare with an axe blow to
the skull after Adare stated his belief that he himself
was the true Messiah. Totally different guy Rodin claimed the
man was sent by Koresh to kill him, and Rodin
was then judged insane and confined to a psychiatric hospital.
(05:14):
So basically, he's trying to pin it on Koresh, but
he's the one who gets confined to a psychiatric hospital.
This rivalry between these men is like incredibly interesting. So
fast forward. Now they have this group, they're living on
this compound together. They moved a few times, whatever, it
doesn't matter. Now it's starting to come out that there
are children who are being abused by him. His doctrine
(05:36):
of the House of David led to quote marriages with
both married and single women, And this is sort of,
at least from my understanding, this is one of the
things that kind of begins the investigation into the group
in general. There are at these allegations which seem to
be most likely true, and that is how we end
up nineteen ninety three, if you want to.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Look more into it. There was also something that happened
six months before that with Ruby Ray, where it was
kind of a similar thing, smaller and it's devastation, but
you can just kind of see where the world was
at at that time. And these two instances were what
Timothy McVeigh quoted as being the reason that he and
his partner did the Oklahoma City bombing.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Lots of contact with this cult incredibly significant moment in
the culture. Incredibly tragic and a total, absolute shit show.
Yeah on the part of the authorities. I mean, what
a fucking fuck up. Yeah, totally unnecessary. So anyway, that
brings us to now, and that brings us to our
conversation with Joanne.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Get your tissues ready, she is so plunderful.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Here we go. Welcome Joanne Viega to trust me. Thank you,
thank you for being here. I'm I'm really excited to
have you on today and also a little bit scared
that we're all gonna cry because your story is oh, oh,
(07:00):
it is a lot. It is wild. Started at the beginning,
So you basically grew up as a branch Davidian when
you were a young child. Do you have a sense
of like how your parents came to follow David Koresh.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Well, from what I gather, my parents were living in
Hawaii and David was at a church doing his normal
sermon and my mom I want to say that it
was my mom again, I had to hear this secondhand
from my sister because my parents are no longer around,
and I want to say it was my mom who
(07:36):
was just looking for something a little bit more in
life and more purpose, and so when she found David
and he was, you know, such a good speaker, she
kind of just was like, this is the way we're going.
We're going this way, and my dad and I had
to follow. So I don't really again, I don't really
(07:58):
know how it happened, but I you know, I think
everyone gets to the point where in their life where
you're kind of like asking yourself, like what do I do?
What's going on? Is all?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What's the meaning?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah, And I think that's where she was, and just
by chance she met.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Dated incredibly charismatic man comes along who's also I was
surprised to see how handsome he was. Am I allowed
to say that, I feel like he's very which which
helps I do. I really do think that that's a
very important gathering followers.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Absolutely, What was his message? I was kind of trying
to start from the beginning, so I see that it
began a little bit. Second Coming of Christ was a
lot of his predecessors. Was that his thing as well?
Or did he kind of leave.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
That b I want to say if I because I
did a little bit of research on this too, and
I want to say because in the beginning, his rhetoric
was very I have the answers, I can show you,
you know, what your purpose in life is. And it
wasn't until later that he kind of changed his verbiage
and starts saying like I am the Son of God,
(09:01):
like I am the miracle and the answer. You know,
it's changed. I don't know the exact year, but you
do if you watch the progress of it. It kind
of starts with like, you know, we're a family, we
can all, you know, love God together, and it was
very inviting. And then somewhere along the lines you can
kind of notice that he started putting himself as the Messiah.
(09:26):
And you know, when you look at it now, all
these flags are very clear, but I think when you're
in the middle of it, you don't really notice these
small little changes that happened totally.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's over time. It's like a long ongoing process. You know.
It's like, yeah, little thing isn't going to raise that
many red flags, of course, and then it's just like
another little thing.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Do you think he believed what he was saying or
do you think he was more conning.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
That's a hard one. If I could give him the
benefit of the doubt, and the only reason why I
do that is because I I feel I wasn't there,
so I really don't know. I want to say that
he did believe in the beginning that he could help
a lot of people and that he could bring everyone
together and under the house of God. That's just a
(10:13):
common ground that everyone's on. And I do believe that
he started off like that. But then I do believe
if you watch he you can see that shift of like,
all these people are listening to me, I have the
absolute word, I can control all these people. And then
I believe it came to like an absolute con whether
(10:35):
it was him like one hundred percent being like I'm
going to do whatever the hell I want, or him
being like, oh, I don't know, let's test the waters,
but I do think it did switch.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It is interesting. I wonder if you or me, for example,
like suddenly had a bunch of people who are like,
we believe everything you say, you are our profit or whatever, like,
if that had never happened in his life, would he
have just like lived a regular life. And it's almost
almost like how you know if you have certain mental
illness predisposals, if you do LSD, it might trigger it.
(11:06):
It makes me wonder like, if you have that kind
of power over people, does that suddenly trigger this like
sociopathic side of you?
Speaker 3 (11:13):
You know?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Yeah, I would definitely say yes. I think that that's
something that maybe we all possess. But I think in
people like David who are just so very gifted in
the gab area where yeah, just whatever he says, everyone's like,
oh my god. More you know, I think in his
little DNA structure, maybe it was just a.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Little yeah, it was.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
He was there and it was waiting, but like it
got said off. Yeah. So let's talk about your own memories,
because this is the part I'm the most curious about.
So how old were you when you first were in
the Waco area?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I want to say maybe one or two? Wow, Okay,
I was very very young, I want to say, because
my sister was around when I was born. I was
born in Hawaii, and then when my mom decided to
move as to Texas, I don't think I was more
than two.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
So your first memories then are probably.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Yeah, I don't have my first starting memories in Waco.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Wow, And what is that? What is that? Can I ask?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
No, I have little tidbits of just being alone. I
always like to describe it. I'm not sure if you
guys have seen those tea bag boxes that has like
the rolling hills and the woman's like picking tea. In
my mind, that's all I see is just like very,
very vast open fields. I was always by myself a
(12:41):
lot when I was younger. I don't remember having many
people around. I barely saw my father. I think the
earliest memory I have of him was us on a
motorcycle doing something we weren't supposed to be, just taking
a joy ride, which we weren't supposed to be doing.
But that's like the first and the most vivid memory
have of my dad. And I can't say that I
(13:01):
was more than five when that happened. Again, my timeline's
a little of course. Yeah. I just remember being alone
a lot in open fields and not really having anyone around,
which does sound a little odd when I say it
out loud.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
What were your parents doing?
Speaker 3 (13:19):
That's a really good question I want to say at
the time we were living. I'm not sure if you've
seen a picture of the compound or anywhere on the property,
but it's like basically this really long road and what
you guys I th even are used to seeing. Is
that really big white building right when you come down
the road. But before that was there, if you just
(13:41):
kept continuing down the road, we each had like houses,
little little houses, and ours was like the very last
one on this road. I want to say they were
worship you know, I've one had worship time or you
know what the loly correct thing to say is. But
they were never around. And then I do remember they
were all building the big I don't know what it's called, it,
(14:03):
the big white building, and so that one I really
have no clue where any adult was when I was little,
like it was just like, okay, hopefully a coyote doesn't
eat you, and then you come and eat you know,
it's like, okay.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
That's so interesting. Was that lonely or was it kind
of peaceful?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
I think it was really peaceful, And to me, when
I think about how independent I am and how solidarity
is really a driving force for me, I think it
really does stem from just having a lot of alone time.
And I didn't have a lot of influence from anyone else.
I just kind of wandered around and it was very peaceful.
(14:48):
I don't ever remember it being scary or upsetting that
no one was around. I found it really peaceful.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, as an introvert, it sounds quite heavenly right, live in.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
The dream I do.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Some of my favorite memories because I grew up on
a farm for like six years of my early years
or whatever, and some of my favorite memories are like
just going off into the woods and like looking at
the blackberries and talking to.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
The cows and turning over a rock and that was
always a fun one for me. Ooh, let's look this
rock exactly.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
That's exactly what it was like.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
What was your relationship with your mom like at that age?
I mean, you know you didn't see your dad that much.
Did you see your mom a little bit more than him?
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Yeah, And I want to say my memories were of
my mom at a younger age was a little bit well,
I mean, since my dad wasn't around, she was the
one that was always disciplining. And yeah, I don't have
like anything super scarring, but I definitely have a feeling
of like my mom was a sing It's like having
(15:53):
a single mom. She has to be the mom, the dad,
the babysitter, the everything. And it was always just fun
and games, did.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
You have many interactions directly with David Koresh.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I did not, because I was not his child. He
was definitely more involved, and I felt like it was
a little bit more segregated because his children obviously were
the son of the Messiahs, so they were you know,
very high end and the rest were not. So I
(16:26):
don't have any really big interactions with him, but I
do know that all of the ones I do have
are quite scary, so I try to kind of keep
those on the down low.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Can you tell us about some of them.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Yeah, I remember sneaking out my mom was in a
exercise class. We were upstairs somewhere in the big white building,
and I remember I wasn't supposed to be there, but
I was looking for my mom and I kind of
came in and I sat down right behind her, like
everyone was facing the front of the room and I
had sat down behind her and I was just, you know,
(17:03):
kind of playing around and she didn't really mind. And
then David walked in and I just remember having like
the fear of God put in me because it was like,
I know, I wasn't supposed to be there. I was
probably supposed to be at some worship time or whatever,
and I was just stuck, and I remember my mom
kind of putting her hands behind her to kind of
(17:24):
like silence me and be like, Okay, you need to
stay still. And I just remember just like fearing for
my life because that was that was after the time
where really any adult could spank any child, what like
it doesn't matter. Oh yeah, they let any adults, you know,
(17:44):
because I think the thought process was when the end
of the world came and when these bad people came
to kill us, that an adult, any adult was supposed
to be able to have complete control over this child,
to direct them or to you know, do whatever it
is that we needed to do in that moment. So
all the children were conditioned to listen to any adult
(18:07):
at the snap of a finger, and we all knew
that if we didn't, it was like severe spanking. And
so you feared basically every adult you came across, because
if you did one thing wrong, that's like any adult
could be looking at you and that that's a spanking.
That's just that was it.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Well, I can imagine all that solitude was peaceful. Then.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, I remember getting spanked once by my mom's friend
on our way home from school. It was so traumatizing.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Like mom's friend.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, we were like carpooling with this little girl in
my same age and this little girl and I like
got She kept telling me she was going to a
museum and I kept going, I know, I've been there,
because I was like three years old, and she would
be like it has this there and I was like,
I know, I've been there, and her mom just turned
around and spanked the absolute shit out of me. And
it was so traumatizing. So are you being spanked by
(19:01):
other people? Like on the on the regular?
Speaker 3 (19:04):
What on the regular? It was? You know, we had
in the big white building. Sorry if I'm being repetitive.
We had the women were on the top floor and
my bedroom that we shared with it was me my
mom on one side on a bunk bed, and we
had we were living with another woman on the other side,
(19:26):
she had the other bed. Every night they would go
down and do a worship group for hours and hours,
so just the kids were stuck upstairs, and I remember
we'd kind of like poke her head out of the
out of the rooms and kind of be like, hey,
are you up. Any other kid across the hall would
be like, yeah, I'm up. And we didn't cheat with
each other, you know, because we had no adults around.
(19:47):
And I remember my the lady that was living with us,
had come upstairs to I don't know what she was doing,
but she'd come upstairs and she saw all of us
kind of talking to each other and poking her heads out,
and she immediate came into she lived in our room.
Kim immediately came to me and just spank the shit
at me. It was like, you know, you're not supposed
(20:07):
to be out of bed, you know you're not supposed
to be talking. And after that it was like, no,
we're talking. Groups. For us, we were scared, so sad, and.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
It sounds so fun too. That sounds so fun. Wow, cool,
thanks for taking that away.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
I know in terms of what the group believed, what
was your conception of that?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Oh well, I think when every adult tells you the
same story as a child, you kind of have no
choice but to believe it. And all we knew is
we were preparing for this big war. We were God's
chosen people because we chose to believe David Koresh and
we chose to follow him, that we would be saved.
(20:51):
Everyone else was going to die, we were going to
be saved and we're going to go to heaven and
our family would be together. And you know, it was
and I did have my sister in my life, it
was very minimal. She would call every once in a while.
I remember talking to you on the phone. But I
also remember thinking like, okay, well, if we all die,
(21:12):
like we go to heaven, she's not coming with us.
Like that's gonna suck. You know, Like you kind of
start to put these things together. It doesn't really make
complete sense because an adults telling you, like without a doubt, like, okay,
well when we're all going to die, you know you'll
be saved, so it doesn't matter. Just you'll be with
your parents. And because we all chose to believe David,
(21:32):
so you grew up with that mentality. And that's why
when we were attacked by the ATF, I didn't think
it was abnormal. I didn't think because you have everyone
telling you, you know, these bad people are going to
come and they're going to kill you, and so we actually,
you know, even more to back up David, were like, hey,
what he said was true. We this is it, Like
(21:55):
this is what we've been waiting for so for me,
it wasn't. I just thought it was another day. I'm like, hey, yeah,
this is how it goes.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Where was your sister? How much old her was she is?
Speaker 3 (22:07):
She she's eighteen years older than me. Oh wow, okay,
So she chose to stay in Hawaii. She wanted nothing
to do with David. She wanted nothing to do with
my parents' involvement in the branch debating group. Which good
for her, you know, I think at twenty five, I
don't even remember like what my core beliefs were at
(22:28):
twenty five. But for her to be like, I'm not
doing that, I think takes a big amount of guts.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, So you guys would talk regularly and you
have this like connection with someone.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, she would send me books and little art those
little plastic things that you open and it has like
all the little art supplies in it and stuff like that.
So I remember her being there. I don't, of course,
I had no idea what she looked like. I had
no idea where she was. I just remember talking to
her briefly every once in a while and knowing that
(23:01):
she was there.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I guess just one more question about David, which is
just like did you get like a sense of magic
around him, Like did he feel like a prophet? Or
was he just kind of a scary adult?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
He was like the most scary adult. He Like, there's
nothing about him that made you feel comfortable. I want
to even say, if I can even reach this far,
I want to even say, as an adult looking at David,
I think everyone was kind of scared out of their
pants because he has this. I mean when we're all together.
I'm sure in the beginning it didn't seem so out
(23:39):
of place or that he was this fearful figure, But
towards the end, just any time you looked at him,
he just was like you just wanted to die, Like
you just want to like shrivel down and be like
I'm so sorry, Like I don't know what it was.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
It's like the scariest person I've probably ever met in
my life. Wow.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, they always devolve right and get so paranoid and
like agitated.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
So this is all happening in the early nineties, right,
So in nineteen ninety three, there was an article published
saying that he was a polygamist who was taking underage brides.
Is that was that true? Do you know?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We heard little rumors, you know, as kids, because I
think we all knew as kids that that's what was
going on, and we had heard rumors that there was
a specific girls. She had long blonde hair. I don't
know who exactly she was, and I definitely don't want
to put a name out there because I'm not one
hundred percent sure, but we all knew, like, and she
(24:46):
was probably fourteen, we all knew that she was going
to be David's next wife. We as kids, we all
kind of were like, that's the one. That's the one.
I don't know, And of course, you know, we hear
kids absorb everything from their surroundings, So I'm not sure
who would have started that, but that was like common
knowledge for all the kids to kind of know that
(25:09):
he was taking other wives. And I don't know how
many there were. I don't know any of that stuff, but.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, was the brainwashing so intense that it's like, oh, lucky,
like you're the prophet's wife, or are are you still
a little kid who's like ew, no, please not me.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I was a little kid, and I just wanted to
make sure that would never be me. Because and I
did kind of figure, if you like, if were stating
the obvious that David had a type. Right, I am Asian,
so I'm like, ooh, I'm gonna I'm never gonna be
in that that lane, so all right, you know, but
(25:46):
he definitely, he definitely had a type. And I think
all of us were like, Okay, we've all checked that box.
We're not going in that direction. So it's okay.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Wow. So that article comes out and it seems to
be I mean, obviously there's so many factors that sort
of lead to the siege, but it seems like that
is sort of one of the initial.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Red flags for people.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm curious. Were you guys aware
of that in the group? Did the paranoia begin because
of that? Or is just an unrelated detail.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
For I think that me being that young, I want
to say, it wasn't really on our forefront of things
that we understood really or kept tabs on. I know
that my mom had reached out to my sister a
couple times and was asking to leave, and she wanted
to she wanted to get out of there. Yeah, And
(26:39):
I don't know what caused that because she was so
very adamant that David was the answer. So for her
to make that kind of switch where she was like,
I can't do this, I'm out something significant I think
had to trigger her morals for her to be like,
that's not right right, and it just didn't happen. David
would not let her go. He it was just no
(27:02):
one was allowed to leave. And I think she I
want to say, my sister told me she tried to
escape once, but she couldn't take me, so she came back.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
Oh no, Okay, So let's get into the siege a
little bit, because you directly experienced this the beginning of
this horrible thing, and I mean, I guess you sort
of said it when it first happened. It wasn't surprising
because he'd been talking about how the end of the
(27:34):
world was coming.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
And you're like, Okay, it's starting, it's happening. Cool.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, But so there are gunshots, Like what did it
actually look like?
Speaker 3 (27:42):
So I again, because our bedroom was on the second floor,
and I could look down to the front from our room,
I could look down to the front of the door
of the building, and then you can also see the driveway.
I just remember it being one of those mornings, didn't
(28:03):
seem like much. My mom came in told me to
get dressed. I was in pajamas and she didn't get dressed.
We're gonna go and eat, and of course, like a
little kid, I did not listen. And I definitely took
my time. I want to say. It was like maybe
halfway out of pajamas when this started, and I just
I looked out the window and all you see is
(28:24):
just little black dots coming down the road and I
just kind of looked at it, and it just from
there was just like a hail of gunfire. It just
was like these loud blasts all over all crazy. And
my mom ran in. She was downstairs, She ran in,
grabbed me off the bunk bed, put me on the floor,
(28:46):
she put she laid on top of me, and she
just said, you know, you have to be quiet. And
it was just like all all hill and I that
memory stops right then, so I and that you know,
that was days hours of gunfire, so I don't know
exactly when that ended. And I just remember thinking, well,
(29:07):
that's this is it. You know, this is where we die, so.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You're expecting to die, and like, yeah, then go right
to heaven or whatever.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, that was the deal. That's what every adult had
told you, and you believed it. You had nothing else
to go by. And when it comes, you know, semi true,
like you feel like, well, this is exactly what everyone
had said was going to happen, and here we are.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
So I believed in a prophet when I was a kid,
not for as long, and you know, it didn't end
as tragically, although there were some bad things that happened,
but I remember that feeling of like, oh, yeah, like
the end is coming and like then we're going to
be a part of the final battle or whatever and
we'll be immediately brought to heaven. This is exciting. He
was never that explicit in like what that would actually
(29:52):
look like, but I'd been taught in just regular Mormonism
my whole life up to that point that like the
Second Coming was coming and like shit was going to
go down and we would all be chosen or whatever.
So I think like on some level, if that had
happened to me, I would have been like a little
bit excited, like it's it's here, We're doing it. We're
(30:12):
the chosen people. God's picked the time, Like hell yeah,
you know.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I don't remember being scared at all, Like there was
not one one part of me that was like this
doesn't feel right or should this really be happening? Like
it was like all right, well here we are, here.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
We go wow wow.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
So yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Six branch Davidians died in that first round of gunfire,
and then and four like a government agents. I think,
did you did you see them?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Again? My timeline during that also probably has skipped around
a little bit. I do remember walking through our hallway
because we had they had first moved all the children
and the women who were at the front part of
the building there was like all rooms, a hallway and
then another set of rooms. They had moved us to
(31:05):
the back end of the building and put the kids
under the bunk beds. In order to get out of that,
you had to go down the hall, to go downstairs
to like where the cafeteria was, where the church was,
what the front door was, and there was no other exit.
It was just the one way down the hall. And
(31:27):
I do remember walking to get downstairs and seeing a
bunch of bodies kind of lying on the floor and
to me and every you know you can see And
this was at night when we had no electricity and
there was just the search lights that they put on,
the really bright searchlights on the building, and from that
(31:47):
you can see all the gun holes in the walls
as you walk down the hall, and it really is
one of those scary movies where you just it's pitched black,
the only light you have had is coming from outside,
and it's just all gun holes everywhere.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
Yeah, it was very serene. It was not fearful. I
wasn't like, holy crap, what has just happened. It was
more like a right, okay, just waiting, waiting for the
ax drop, I guess.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Fascinating.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, so as somebody who's also told the end of
time is about to come at all moments of my life,
I think I would have been much more terrified than
both of you. I think I would have totally flipped out.
But there is that feeling of like at least it's
finally happening and about to be over, like the axe
has fallen. I can really relate to.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
You know, Yeah, I think you kind of just wander
around being like, so, well, am I still alive? Yeah?
What's happening?
Speaker 5 (32:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
They didn't tell you this? Right?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Wow? But It is just so crazy that they just
show up and start fucking shooting at people. There's kids
in there, there kids in there, there's I mean, like
they had a warrant for David's arrest, and they had
a search warrant. How the fuck does that turn into
like killing spray just spraying bullets to the point where
(33:12):
the walls are covered in bullets like that is insane.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
How many kids were in there?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
I don't h twenty seven.
Speaker 6 (33:19):
I think twenty three.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh, that is wild.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
I mean, and you know the branch Davidians are shooting
back right, there's there. It's an exchange of gunfire. But
it's like, why why did it even have to begin
this way?
Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:35):
How many days were you there? If you know.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Oh, I don't have an exact date. And of course
remember we also were not schooled, so for me, like,
we had no idea what days were, what dates were,
what punts were, what time was? Really no clue. They
did not school us at all. The only thing we
were schooled in was just Bible knowledge.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
So that would they teach you to read the Bible.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
They they would like highlight they would say, here's a
passage you want to look at. This and highlight every
time you see the word God, and that's the only
word you really need. Have nothing to do with what
was happening. I could not read as soon as I
got out. It was just like you start from negative five,
(34:28):
not even ground zero.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
I am so impressed with you, just yeah, no words.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Wow, you're obviously incredibly intelligent and made up for that
lack of education in your childhood. But that is that's insane.
So some amount of time you were there.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, I want to say, was if I can kind
of take a stab, I want to say, it's like
a week to two weeks. I remember it being because
in my mind, I think I only have maybe five
memories of that whole time. And that's why I don't
know who said. They're like, oh, you're in there for
like a week or two weeks. I was like, but
how is that possible? Because they only have like five
(35:07):
memories of that, So I don't know where that time went.
I'm sure somewhere in my psyche, you know. They kind
of shut everything down and was like, Okay, this is
not appropriate for a six year old to be going through,
so we're going to shut all that down. And I
haven't got any of it back, So I really don't know.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, I mean this is a very specific logistical question.
But like, while there's all of this gunfire being exchanged,
what are you doing for meals? Like how are you
just like getting through the days?
Speaker 3 (35:39):
So David had stockpiled Mr e. Those military meals. Oh
I remember having like seeing in the cafeteria just a
wall of just boxes of food. And it was again
just preparation for the end of time. So in that regard,
he was prepared, and.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
That you had them in your house, Like are you yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
You just went downstairs and grabbed a box or whatever.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
And oh, because you guys are living in the big
white building at this point, Yeah, I see, okay.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Oh yeah, And there were other children obviously experiencing this
with you.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Yeah, I didn't see any of them. I'm not sure
where everyone kind of dispersed to. I just know that
when I was moved from my bedroom to the back
part of the upstairs, I was with one other girl
and we were just underneath the bed and put like
pillows and everything, like as if a pillow is going
(36:40):
to help. But they had put pillows all the way
around underneath the bed for us, and they just kind
of shoved us in there, and so you're just waiting
in the dark. Yeah, you know, listening to the chaos happening.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Oh my gosh, did.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
They do different things with his children? Do you remember
what happened to them?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
So David had a separate wing of the building. So
when you go through the front door, you can take
a left and you can go upstairs for all the
women and children. Where we were downstairs was the men.
If you went straight back, it was the church, and
(37:19):
then behind the church above like you kind of went
behind it and went up the stairs. Theres was his apartment.
So that's where he lived. And I want to say
he lived with his wife. I don't know when, but
that was his place. So I want to say all
(37:39):
the kids were his children were with him.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
What Okay, So tell us about how your mom makes
a move to protect you at this point.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
So she, I mean, again, from what I can gather,
she already knew that this was not right, her trying
to escape, her trying to leave. So I think in
the moment when she realized that kids were being released,
she really advocated, like, you know, she's not your daughter,
(38:20):
she has nothing to do with you. She's not the
chosen one. Let her go, and she came back. I
just remember her saying, you know, hold on one second,
I'm going to go talk to David. And she came
back and she said, you're getting out of here, and
she like, as fast as you possibly can.
Speaker 5 (38:38):
Sorry, thout, you're good, You're good, as fast as any
person possibly can.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
You know, gather as many things that you have to
put on your child. And she just as fast as
she could grab my arm, took me downstairs and was
like you're going, Like that's it. There's no questions, there
was nothing that she was so very confident in that decision.
(39:12):
And I think that her as a mom, her instincts,
everything about her as being a mom just kind of
kicked in all at once right then and there, because
she also understood that by releasing me, she would never
be able to go. So that I think is like
the biggest sacrifice as a parent that you can make,
(39:37):
and like, really, you know, be in that moment to
like make that decision. She there was no second questioning.
Was she was so dead set, sorry, Oh my.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Gosh, no, you are totally fine. We're yeah, we're in Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So why does her making the decision for you to go.
I mean, she can ever go because because she has
no leverage anymore of like how to get out or.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Well, there was only talk of releasing children. I'm not
sure if there was ever a conversation of releasing adults.
And I think when she put everything together, she realized
it probably was never really about an adult. Leaving was like,
get the kids out. If you are a mom and
(40:26):
you really have come to the realization that this is
not the Messiah. He is not the person that he
said he was going to be, and he was not
going to be able to deliver all these promises that
he said he was. You know, your your reality kind
of sinks in and she just was like take you know,
take her, just get her out, and she was. She was.
(40:50):
Both my parents were extremely strong because I when I
was leaving, I got to say goodbye to both my parents,
and I don't remember either of them crying because I mean,
if you think about it, if you had told me
that we were supposed to die and we would all
be together, and then all of a sudden plans change,
(41:11):
I'm handing you over to these bad people. So I
told you for the first six years of your life,
that they were going to kill you and that they
were bad, and you don't ever talk to them. If
you see them, you run, you tell an adult. And
now I'm handing you to these people. And I am
not going to be with you, like it's such a
different mental state to be in, and just you have
(41:34):
to go. You have to go with it. And as
a kid, you know, we were taught to listen to adults.
Just that's the only thing. So I didn't question it.
I didn't I didn't understand really fully what it meant
at the time, but I just knew that my parents said,
you have to go. They were not upset, they weren't crying,
(41:55):
they weren't like in fear. It was just a very
calm life. You have to go. And she put her
necklace and a note for my sister in my pocket,
in my jacket and she just set me out the
door and that was that was it.
Speaker 7 (42:14):
That is yeah, I just yeah, I'm I am marveling
at the strength that it would take to do that,
when they were so indoctrinated into this.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Idea that this these desks would be a good thing,
these would mean you would be together. You know, you'd
been waiting for this, and I just like that that
leap that it takes to be like, I'm actually gonna
defy everything I've believed for the past, however many years,
to save my daughter.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
Like and she did an interview. I remember seeing her
if she's in a truck, and she was asked if
she believed that David Koresh was son of God, and
her response was, I hope so, And that to me
(43:08):
was like if there was ever a time to know
that she did not believe that that was true, that
was it. But that came from her own words. She
had every choice to say one hundred percent, we're here,
we one believe this, Yeah, and her her choice of
word was I.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Hope so, oh, thank god she was doubting. I mean,
thank thank God, that's why you're here. Like that's yeph.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
I just I that the unwinding that she did, and
how quickly and how like it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, my mom works a lot of people with a
lot of people who are exiting the group that they're
in and like it's a it's a long process like
that is like so anyway, it's just an amazing It's
just an amazing decision.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, yeah, I'm very thankful.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And so you left and and then what they just
like take you? And was it scary?
Speaker 3 (44:07):
It was scary. It's and it doesn't when I'm gonna
say this out loud, it doesn't sound scary. But in
my mind, when you have no experience whatsoever, like a
flushing toilet scared the shit out of me. Wow. Taking
a bath like a bubble bath scared the absolute craft
(44:28):
out of me.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
The first time running water at all, no running water,
no electricity, no. Wow, I didn't.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
Realize it was. I want to say we had electricity,
but I don't think we had running water okay, because
we did not have toilets or baths. For baths, we
had a big tin bath and then we had to
fill it up with water and then take it out. Wow.
So it was not it was nothing. It wasn't like
the luxuries of having a flushing toilet now, so for me,
(45:00):
and I thought it was I thought it was definitely
a trick. And I thought I was going to get spanked.
You know, every time I was supposed flush the toilet
or take a bath, I definitely thought like, holy shit,
like I'm gonna get spanked this is not normal. This
is not how we do things. And it took a
lot of unwinding for me to start over and to
(45:21):
start from scratch for the basic things that you know
everyone has. Now, we had never watched movies, so for me,
I think the first movie we saw was The Little Mermaid.
They took us to a home. I got a shelter,
a home where all the kids were staying, and they
(45:42):
let us watch movies. They let us know, play sports,
have candy, have soda. It was just one of those
things where you think, I'm definitely gonna get spanked if
I if I take a sip of this, and a
lot of the videos that I have seen had I was.
I was always in the background by myself kind of
(46:05):
just like this is not you know, this is not right.
I definitely feel like I'm gonna get spanked or punished
or this. This is just not right. I was very
It's hard to watch those those videos and see just
how how mentally insecure I was in like the basic things, Well.
Speaker 2 (46:26):
It makes total sense. It's the only thing you'd ever known, like, yeah,
this is everything, goes against everything you've ever been taught.
With a bunch of strangers like why why would you
be immediately.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
On board not only strangers, but like the enemy, the.
Speaker 3 (46:38):
Enemy, Yeah yeah, the enemy.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah yeah, and I mean the Little Mermaid.
Speaker 3 (46:43):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Imagine never seeing a movie and then you're just watching Likesla. Yeah,
it was it amazing? Was it terrifying?
Speaker 3 (46:52):
The first one. I think we all we watched it
and all of us were like, what the hell just happened?
And then we were like we can we repeat that?
And so we just had it like non stop, the
same movie over and over. For me, So, my sister's
name is Ursula and my mom name is Ursula, So
(47:13):
for me, I was like, yeah, I was like, holy yeah,
who is it? Of course I ended up the villain,
but no, that's all right, kind of cool.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
Actually yeah, her own person doing some shit.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Yeah sure, yeah, I was slow, super cool, like the
stealing voices from ladies. And how long was it before
you were living with your sister?
Speaker 6 (47:38):
I don't think it was more than a couple weeks.
Maybe again, timelines are not great with me.
Speaker 3 (47:45):
She had to go through a lot of fighting in court,
and I think what had ultimately became the deciding factor
was the note that my mom had left in my
jacket was basically saying that my sister was now my guardian.
That's who she wanted me to go with. Right, And
(48:07):
so she's writing this note in the middle of all
that chaos, knowing that an outcome needed to happen, and
that's what she wrote, like, your sister is now your guardian,
that's who I'm trusting.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
That's incredible foresight against right, very impressive.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
Oh wow. But then I moved to Hawaii and that again,
you want to talk about scary times, is like going
to school for the first time, is you know, children
are relentless in their beliefs. As a child, because you're
so solely believing one thing, she don't know how to
think for yourself. Really, and going to school, I remember
(48:45):
being teased for not having parents, for not having my
parents around, and it was really rough. It was definitely rough.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Did you feel a connection with your sister, I mean
you'd never met, but you talked enough.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, it was immediate. And I had no idea who
you know what she looked like. I had no idea.
I was just brought to an office and she was
sitting in there with a social worker or someone, and
I just remember like as soon as I locked eyes
with her. I was like, that's my sister, and I
just crawled into her lap and she was my safe
zone and she's been my safe zone for a very
(49:22):
long time.
Speaker 2 (49:24):
Wow. So the Waco siege lasted for fifty one days,
which is absolutely insane. How did you get the news
about the fire?
Speaker 3 (49:41):
My sister every morning would turn on the TV before
I'd go to school and watch the news. And that
morning she turned it on and it was just everything
was up in flames, and she just, immediately, she was
so quick turned off the TV. I don't even think
(50:03):
I had a chance to see what was on the TV.
She turned it off. She said, all right, let's get
you to school, and as if nothing had happened. And
I went to school, had no idea what was happening,
and she said she just pulled over and cried.
Speaker 6 (50:21):
And I think it's hard for me to think about
this because not only did I go through this experience,
but she did too.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
She was I don't want to say burden, but she
definitely had a lot of things she had to deal
with that she did not sign up for. Yeah, so
she was definitely a rock. And then she picked me
up from school, said you know, we need to talk,
and you know, mom unfortunately has died. And my response
(50:51):
to her just was like, yeah, I know, like you
guys told me that this was going to happen, like
I wasn't. I was again, very calm, very just a
matter of fact, like that was a fact. Yes, wow,
And she I think that might have scared her a
little bit, if I could be honest. But yeah, and
(51:15):
then from then, I think every adult in my life
has tried to be a little bit more kind to
I think they all waited for the acts to drop,
as if I were going to lose it or like
I was not expecting this that your parents unfortunately passed,
and you know it would all hit me at one time,
(51:35):
and it didn't. It just was like very like even
to this day, I don't ever really cry when I
hear that back because it was so it was just
a fact to me, Like okay, so.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Yeah, seventy six people died that day, including twenty something children.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
Is so crazy. It's just so crazy, dud.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, when you think about your mom, now, what do
you think, like, what do you hold on to?
Speaker 3 (52:10):
I think of her and I think, yeah, she made
this decision to be part of a group that she
thought was going to give her the answer she was
looking for in her life. And I think everyone kind
of gets to that cross point where you figure, what's
going on with you know, my life?
Speaker 6 (52:29):
What am I doing?
Speaker 3 (52:31):
And it doesn't really matter to me how she got there.
It doesn't matter what where she was in her own
growth journey or not even growth journey, whatever, It doesn't
matter because when the time came for her to make
the most crucial decision, she didn't question. She just I
(52:52):
think in her every moral fiber of her being, she
knew what was right. Yeah, and she made, you know,
just the most difficult decision that any parent can make.
And that's what defines her in the end. Like, it
has nothing to do with how she got here, It
has nothing to do with her battles that she fought
(53:14):
while she was there or any of it. It doesn't
matter to me. It matters to me that she found herself,
she found what she knew was right, and she went
with it.
Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, she's a hero.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah, she protected you when it was the most important,
and that's the important thing to remember. It seems like,
what's your life like now, h.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
I have three beautiful boys, my husband and I work
in our family restaurant in San Francisco. I am right
now the pastry chef there. And my eldest son, Logan,
who's sixteen. He has definitely been my rock during a
(54:02):
lot of growing through being a parent. He comes to
work with me every three days a week. He works
with me. I'm just trying very hard to raise kind
gentle men for this world because I feel like that's
definitely what is needed right now. So I have a
(54:23):
four month boy. When we found out we were pregnant,
I was so sure. I said, you know what, I'm ready.
If now is ever the time, I'm ready to raise
a strong woman. If that's my lot in life, I
can do it. I have the energy, I have the patience.
I would love to raise a strong woman that was
(54:44):
not the choice that was made. And a good friend
of mine because she knew how disappointed I was, because
I was so very set, I said, this world needs
a strong woman. I am ready to do that. And
what am I going to do? I have another boy,
And she gently reminded me. She said, you know, I
(55:06):
think the world does have enough strong women in it
right now. I think what we are lacking is just
kind men.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Good men.
Speaker 3 (55:13):
So if that's the journey you're supposed to be on
and you have three opportunities to do that, I think
that's where you should be. And I just kind of
was like, oh, holy shit, you're right, damn it.
Speaker 6 (55:26):
So I gave up the idea of raising a strong
woman and I am trying to raise kind and gentlemen
who you.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
Know, have a little bit of a backbone but still
can contribute kindness because I think we definitely need that. Now.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
I love that perspective so much. I think that that
is an excellent point that your friend made because right there,
most of the problems in this world are men who
are afraid to be soft or vulnerable. Yeah, or I
should say, are have root causes in dynamics involving then
you know, I don't want to say it's men's fault,
(56:04):
but you know what I mean. So, yeah, I think
that's incredibly important. And just based on this conversation, I
would guess you're doing an excellent job of doing that.
Speaker 3 (56:12):
Oh thank you. I really do try. It's hard work.
Every day.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
I read something that I'm not sure it is true.
It was like an article, but it said that a
social worker or somebody. When you first got out, I
was telling you, like, you're not going to be a
good person. Is that?
Speaker 3 (56:29):
Yeah? I mean they told my sister to basically make
sure I continue therapy because the chances that I would
grow up to be a you know, obomber was very likely.
Oh my, or you know, a mass murderer was basically
what everyone thought I would be.
Speaker 7 (56:51):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (56:53):
Yeah, so I'm not sure where that study.
Speaker 5 (56:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Wow. I was hoping you'd be like, no, that's not real. Okay,
that was real. So you've just like shown up in
everyone's faces and have a beautiful life.
Speaker 3 (57:09):
And yeah, well I think when you hear when you
hear that, you know, at a young age, you kind
of think like, I really would like that to not
be true, and your decision making from then kind of
fears you the opposite, right as, I don't really know
how I got.
Speaker 6 (57:27):
To this point, if I can be honest.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
But it's just a day in and day out, small
decisions that are made to make sure that I do
not kill a bunch of it.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
Sounds like though, that you had this wonderful sister who
really like guided you through what could have been really
which probably was a very rocky tumultuous time, but having
that person can make all the difference in the world.
Not that you would have ever been a mass that's
but I just had a term in terms of like
turning out relatively healthy and balanced and well adjusted all
(58:05):
things considered.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Yeah, we had some growing pains. I'm not gonna say
that it was you know, rainbows and sunshine. We definitely
went through a lot of growing pains and we had
a lot of discovering and growth to do between the
two of us to kind of navigate and make sure
both of us got out of this alive, so to speak.
(58:29):
And you just need one person. You need a village
when it comes to raising children. I think that's the thing,
because raising a child on your own is freaking crazy.
So to single moms who do it, holy freakin cow,
I salute you. But I do think that it just
if you have one person in your life who tells
you and means it when they say, like you're enough,
(58:53):
that's it's just one. You just need one. You don't
need every single person that you come across to tell
you that. You just need one that you trust, and
that's it. You're not every day you're enough.
Speaker 2 (59:06):
Imagine your story will be very inspiring to our listeners
because we have a fair amount of listeners who had
their own either cultic or abusive, or just like general
traumatic experiences, and it's so inspiring to see when someone
comes out of something that's so extreme and so difficult
and just like.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Yeah, yeah, thank you. I do want to just say,
because I've been asked a lot. I have kids in
high school who reach out and ask me to answer
their questions for a school project that they do. And
I've been noticing lately that it has been a majority
of people who write to me that are in high school,
(59:48):
who say, you know, we're learning about this in history class,
and I was just hoping you'd be able to answer
some questions and talk to me. And as I get older,
and I realized that this isn't something that everyone has
grown up with on the news. They're obviously very different
problems happening today. I think my main goal to tell
(01:00:12):
these kids, and I tell each one of them like
you're enough, Like I just want you to know that
in school, because people don't tell you in high school,
they don't tell you in middle school or elementary school.
We weren't raised with parents who nurture us in a
way where it's always a comfortable growth. I think our
generation before us has been very rough, So I do
(01:00:35):
want to make it a thing where I tell these
kids before you get to being an adult and have
to figure it out on your own, and no one's
ever told you that you were enough, that you're enough.
That's really just my that's my hoshpiel. I just want
to make sure that kids hear it from someone that
they're enough, because I never heard it.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
So, yeah, you don't have to be like that influencer
on Instagram or where it in a particular body or
whatever it is there. I can't imagine we're just talking
about this, but I cannot imagine being a kid right now.
It's very very hard. So yeah, well, thank you so
so much for coming on. This is truly an amazing
conversation and you just seem like such an awesome person,
(01:01:16):
and yeah, really appreciate it.
Speaker 6 (01:01:20):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
All right, Megan, time for the question. Would you join
this cult?
Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
To be fair? Living on a compound sounds pretty fun.
As you've mentioned, he's very good looking. I don't necessarily agree,
but if I found him good looking, it might be influential. Yeah,
I could see myself hanging out down in the big
white building for a minute.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
Down in the big white building. That's a song title
for sure.
Speaker 5 (01:01:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
I think that the religious element would maybe make it
not one of mine. Oh yeah, the religious element is
not fun, yeah, but commune living like sure. Actually the
parts where she's describing just like being on her own
in this beautiful, my natural setting. I'm like, that sounds great.
I would do that for sure, and like the sleeve
(01:02:04):
over vibes. Yeah, with the kids, but then other you know,
minus the punishing adults. Who knows.
Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
You know.
Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
It was a really particular time, a really particular religion.
Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
But I can see why people got sucked on me too.
Thank you guys for spending another week listening to us.
We can't wait to see you here again next week.
Remember to follow your gut, watch out forrad flags, and
never ever trust trust me Hi later.
Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
The special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me cult pod, or on TikTok At,
Trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hits on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Remember to rate and review and spread work.
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