Tory Hess - From Second Life to Wilderness Commune - Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
gmail dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Trust me, Trust trust me.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
I'm like a swat person.

Speaker 4 (00:25):
I've never lived.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
To you never If you think that one person has
all the answers, don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast
about cults, extreme belief and manipulation from two fantasizers who've
actually experienced it.

Speaker 4 (00:40):
I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Today our guest is Tory, former member of a small
rural group in upstate New York that she calls crazy Land.
She's gonna tell us about how she always loved reading
and fantasy growing up, never went to public school, and
didn't connect easily with folks in real life when she
was young, and how she found her human connection in
the online community of the game Second Life, where she

(01:03):
could act out her dream of having a family of
her own until it began to consume her life.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
She'll tell us how some of the friends she made
on there eventually convinced her that she was spending too
much time on the game and that she should come
live with them in upstate New York.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
In Crazyland.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
We'll talk about how thirteen people were living in one
trailer with extremely uncomfortable living conditions like one toilet for
all those people, but how it also fulfilled her desire
for a family to take care of.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
At least at first.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
We'll get into who the leader of Ron was, the
financial and sexual abuse that he was committing, how he
isolated her from her parents, and how she finally got out.
Torri's story is amazing, she is. It's such a modern
tale of how one can end up in a cult.
It makes it super interesting for me personally, hopefully for

(01:53):
y'all too. Before we jump in, what is your culture
thing of the week.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Well, I've been watching the HBO docuseries Breath of Fire,
which is about Kundalini yoga.

Speaker 4 (02:04):
I'm not sure if you've seen it yet. Heavier you
look a little like you not? Okay? Great?

Speaker 1 (02:11):
So essentially it's about this woman whose name was Katie,
but she became Gurujhaga and her rise to the top
of Kundalini and Los Angeles and the world. And it
hit super close to home because I lived with one
of my really good friends who was taking her classes
all over the time, who started studying Kundalini. A lot

(02:33):
of the people I was hanging out with or some
of the authors I liked, were getting certified to teach it,
and I felt really lazy for not wanting to do it.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
Cadalini yoga is like so hard.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
You would sit for an hour and a half and
these yoga classes that you know would have cool celebrities
and stuff like that, and just have your hands above
your head for the whole class.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
I can barely lift a hand.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
In general, and so I would be like, I don't
want to do these classes. I don't really like it.
But I always had this sense in the back of
my head. I was like, well, because you're too lazy
to do it. But now as it is exposed for
the cult that it is, I'm like, damn, it sometimes
comes in handy to not be an overachiever.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
So true, because.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
This shit got really crazy, it got really abusive. Spoiler alert,
she is the Guru is dead. It's such a mess
and it's heartbreaking, and I knew some of the people
in the doc, and it just it's really unnerving because
I was essentially kind of in it.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I thought it was.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Real and there is something about Kundlim like I believe
in Chakras, So it was something that I was very
close to and it's kind of freaking me out. The
doc is really good and I recommend everybody watch it.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
I will watch it. I'm so behind on all the docks.
I really want to watch the Stanford prison experiment one too,
which you know we kind of already I think have
talked about on this podcast that that was debunked a bit,
and it was the researcher was kind of misleading people
as to what actually happened there. But I've not watched
it yet, so I want to see all the tea
and get all the details. But I have nothing to

(04:20):
say about it because I haven't seen it yet.

Speaker 4 (04:22):
Oh watch it. What about you?

Speaker 1 (04:23):
What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Living in America?

Speaker 4 (04:27):
Can you believe in America.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
The election happened? Obviously, everyone's going to have really strong
opinions about that one way or another. I think everyone's
pretty clear on where I'm at with that, but I
just feel like it's important to mention that, you know,
we're going to be really divided these next four years,
hopefully only four years, and it's going to be really

(04:52):
tempting to want to just yell at each other and
cut off people in our life who who have different
views than us, views maybe we even and think are abhorrent.
But as we learn over and over again on this show,
it's not really an effective tactic to just kind of
yell at people and attack them and cut them off.
And if you really do want to ever like get

(05:14):
through to someone or reach them or get them to
hear your perspective, it can be really important to do
something we talk about in this episode actually, which is
get curious and ask questions and try to stay connected
as best you can, even when yeah, there's to try.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
To stay connected on topics that there's common ground on,
and then you know, ask little questions here and there
so you can understand where they're coming from. But if
the relationship isn't hurting you, then try to keep it alive, right.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, Yeah, obviously it's different if somebody is verbally abusing
you or like just crediting your existence in some way,
but otherwise my understanding of the world. People might disagree,
but is that everyone whose views we think are abhorrent
from their perspective, given their experience, is given the information
they've exposed to, makes sense to them as being reasonable.
And most people, some people obviously we know are are

(06:08):
actually just straight up racist. But most people I think
like have their worldview for a reason and it's not
going to change when you yell at them. That's all. Yep.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
I couldn't agree more. Thanksgivings coming up. I know a
lot of us are going home. So God's speed to
all of us on every level of just you know,
making it through and keeping connections alive despite our differences,
because it's important.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
Indeed, should we get to the interview.

Speaker 4 (06:36):
Absolutely, let's talk to Tory.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
Welcome Tori to trust me. Thank you so much for
joining us.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
We have so many questions for you. It's such a
unique story. Okay, So first, can you just tell us
what your childhood was like and what kind of your
understanding of community and religion and such was.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
Sure I grew up in evangelical Christian home and everything.
So community was definitely surrounded by church, and my church
at that time was very small, so it was very
inward us focused, not outward. So a lot of my
childhood was friends from church. Homeschooled as well then like
around third grade, much of a private Christian school, so church

(07:27):
like community shifted then. And I I'm a one of
seven kids, big family, so that was also like growing up,
I just felt very outcast in my family, like I
didn't belong and there was something wrong with me that
I did not fit in. I was not enough. I
very much from a young age. My mom would say

(07:48):
I had a huge fantasy mind. I was fantasy oriented.
I read a lot, so my mind was outward like
inward but outward at the same time, like not in
the real world type of thing. And so it's very
hard for me to relate to people, rebate to friends,
especially since I didn't go to a public school. Yeah,
I never went to a public like brick and mortar

(08:09):
public school. It was always homeschool with private Christian school.
Graduated from a cyber school, so didn't have those friendships
that most people have growing up.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
What type of books were you reading, because for me,
it was like Sweet Valley High.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
Babysitters Club. Were you were you also there?

Speaker 2 (08:27):
I was going to say Harry Potter.

Speaker 3 (08:28):
I was. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan. Yeah, powder
fan still for the day, okay Potter, Sweet Dot High
of course, more Angles, wid Yeah, everything, It'sycopleedia Brown, the
Treehouse Club.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
The box Car Kids, the box Car Children.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Okay, now we're just naming every book.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Well, I really relate to that, and it set up
some of your story later. So yeah, okay, yeah, you're
like kind of living in your hat a little bit
through some books.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
What era was this, Like, what year did you graduate?

Speaker 3 (09:10):
I graduated two thousand and nine. So I also grew
up in late nineties early two thousands where the Internet
was coming live. So because it was hard for me
to relate face to face, the computer set up a
lot of my relationships, right, like chat rooms, AOL and
Semessenger for those. Yeah, you don't know that. Like grew

(09:31):
up with that looking for my people because I felt
like I have my people here in real life.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Oh this is okay. I'm so glad you're here talking
to us, because this is such a particular type of
isolation that I feel like we don't really get to
hear about that much, but it's so so, so common,
and I relate to it a lot. Like I was
homeschooled for part of high school as well. I graduated
from homeschool, and I spent all of my hours on

(09:57):
the internet, all of them.

Speaker 4 (09:59):
I know you both had wild MySpace page.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Oh yeah, that's all I'm saying. Oh yeah, you were
very glary.

Speaker 4 (10:06):
Yeah your signature, that's all I'm going to say.

Speaker 3 (10:10):
If I was mad at you. You're not my top
eight friend.

Speaker 4 (10:13):
Yes, yes, Oh.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
My god, that is definitely so. How old were you
I guess when you discovered Second life? And how did
you discover second life?

Speaker 3 (10:24):
So before I get into second life, I always also
did online role playing through Zanga, the online journal blog.
So I created these narratives for many different characters I
would get a plot line from, like the Harry Potter series.
I create a character to fit into the Harry Potter series.
So really creating this fantasy mind setting that up in

(10:46):
my head, continue that well into high school, early college change.
I want to say about twenty three, twenty four something
like that, when the role playing with Era was ending,
people didn't want to do anymore. Friend I met on there,
It's like, hey, I have this sight called Second Life.
It's this game that like role playing come to life,

(11:06):
is how she explained it to me. You can make it.
Second Life is that online avatar game. You can make
it as real as you want or as much as
the game as you want. I dove in it headfirst
and made it literally my second life.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Okay. I played Second Life like a couple of times
and I was like, oh. I was like, there's no
way I can keep playing this because this will destroy
my entire life.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Can you guys give me some I have not yet
been on Second Life. I might join it now after
this conversation, but.

Speaker 3 (11:32):
Like, careful, yeah, I can sweep you in.

Speaker 4 (11:36):
What's the draw?

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Like you get to live the life that you're not
living in your every whole life. Okay, So are the
people you're interacting with? Are they real people or are
they characters?

Speaker 4 (11:47):
And both?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
The real people behind this are these avatars. Some are
very old, some are very young. The draw like the
draw for me ever since I can remember, And I
don't know if this was because my evangelical Christian background.
What you're supposed to do? I'm doing air quotes for
those who can't see or because this was my DNA.
But I always wanted to be married, always wanted to

(12:08):
have kids, always wanted to be a stay at home mom.
That was my thing, that was what I wanted, And
being the early twenties, I was like, what's wrong with me?
I'm not married, I don't have kids. All my friends
are like what's wrong with me? And also it hit
that I'm not enough because all these people are even
though I have a full time job, I'm not content.

(12:31):
I'm not launching. So Second Life drew that in because
I found my community of misfits and I got married,
I had kids. Even though these avatar kids were probably
people older than me on this game, it didn't matter.

Speaker 4 (12:46):
I had family air quotes again.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
That were calling me mom, I have a husband. I
was able to be a DJ on this game. I
was a vampire on this game. Like everything I could
do in this in this second life, I couldn't do
my real world, and I just lived my full life
revolving around the computer. Wow, so work came home right

(13:09):
straight on a computer.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah, it's it's like having an alter ego almost track.
Yeah you think, yeah, you think I'm like a normal girl.
Actually I'm a vampire. I have twenty children, and I
am awesome.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah yeah, I mean, I just want to hear a
little bit more about that, like second life lifestyle, because
I'm sure there will be plenty of people who've never played.
Like how much time were you spending on there? And
how much time is like your digital husband spending on there,
Like how much actual interaction is happening?

Speaker 3 (13:40):
Very much like every moment I was not working, I
was not with the few face and face friends I
had and family, it was all spent on this computer.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
He my second life husband and I were actually talking
outside of it. So since we were all about the game,
we would be calling each other. We were playing to
meet each other each other in real life like, so
it was an extension of this game. And these people
I met on their air quote again met they Some
of them had my phone number. I was calling them.
There were people from all the way over on the

(14:11):
other side world, England, Australia I was talking to. I
was figuring out how I could live my real life
to commendate my second life like I was doing real
life stuff to a piece of parents, a peace, my friends, yes,
I'll go out and do this, but I was literally
looking my watch counting down the hour so I could
get back on the game.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
And what were you doing for work at that time.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
I'm a medical assistant, so I was working at a
primary care office, and so I was doing the real
life thing making the money, but I woul kind of
wait to get home to get back on my computer,
back to my people.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
Wow, I mean it makes so much sense. There have
been a number of people in my life who've had
a very similar lifestyle for a while, and fortunately it's
eventually we're like, Okay, this is taking too much of
my time. Correct. It's crazy how how seductive it is,
because you would think you would think, like, well, it's
just a game that's not your real life, so why

(15:06):
would it be addictive like that? But it is, so
it really is.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Especially for that core belief I had that I'm not enough.
I am behind this computer. Who I am in real
life is not enough. I felt like an outcast. I
didn't fit in. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin
at all, to be the nerd, the huge fantasy person,
the person who is fearly into Harry Potter, all of that,

(15:33):
I didn't feel like to be that because I wasn't
into athletics. I was a musical Like the tangible things
I thought were good in the world, the tangible gifts
I didn't have, so of course who am I? So
that's why Second Life really tapped into that.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
It makes so much sense. And I have to mention
that my friends and I would go on there because
you can have a sexual life somewhat on Second Life
as well, and for you know, like a little former
Mormon girl, I was like, I can do what.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yep much So yeah, what does what do you mean?

Speaker 3 (16:12):
Lowo?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
How old are you? I don't know this, I was
probably nineteen or something.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
So like in theory, like this is a great opportunity
for all kinds of people who can't connect us easily
in real life or for whatever reason, just have this
hobby to like act out some of their fantasies.

Speaker 3 (16:29):
And act out disabilities.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
There's nothing inherently wrong with spending a lot of time
on a game, but you know, it's just maybe if
it becomes consuming and diminishes your quality of life outside
of the game, perhaps, although this will be a larger
conversation we'll see as AI like as virtual reality becomes
more prevalent, Like, we'll see how that evolves. So how
did you finally decide like, Okay, I got to get

(16:55):
off this game.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
It's actually the people I ended up moving in with
up to State, New York towards the end of my
time on They're they're like, well, if you are super
addicted to this game, you should not be on here.
You need to take a break. This is really eating
up all your time, it's eating up all your money.
You need to get out.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
The other people on the game are telling you this, whoa.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
And do you have to pay for like per hour on?

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Or it's like you buy food in the game or
what what are you we're paying?

Speaker 3 (17:25):
Like, if you want good clothes, if you want your
avatar to look amazing, you got to put some money
into it.

Speaker 4 (17:32):
Got it? Okay? Okay.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
So the other people playing the game with you are like,
you're playing this game too much.

Speaker 4 (17:39):
Okay, Okay, that's a little wake up call.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
I see where you're where you're at Okay.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
And these are people you trusted already and had a
relationship with on there right.

Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yes, I was starting to get to know them. I
was starting we were having conversations of like, hey, let's
meet outside of second life, let's meet face to face
and everything. So we were starting to build that relationship
outside a second life. And when it was immersing there,
I trusted. I was like, oh you like me? I
trust you, Like there is that false sense of intimacy

(18:12):
behind me that I was like, Oh, okay, even though
I've never met you, I don't know, I know you
live somewhere in New York. I trust you because we
spent all the time on computer by noble what your
face looks like? So yeah, I trust them instantly. I
was like, okay, yeah, I'll get off of here.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Why not?

Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yeah, and they're offering you a different side quest, so
to speak, come meet us in person.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
Exactly exactly were those two things in the same breath.
Was it like, hey, you, you spent so much time
on there, why don't you get off and come to
this place with us? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (18:46):
It was.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
They're so smart recruiting tegt Yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
So I didn't help with them right away. The interesting fans,
I can be very all of them, very black and white.
So when I got off to this game, I was
like culture getting rid of everyone, And it wasn't until
like I was kind of creeping, like watching them from
the sidelines to see what they're doing. But it wasn't
until about a year or so later that they're like, Hey,

(19:14):
we haven't talked to you forever. What I'm going to
reach back out to you. How are you doing? We
got off the game too, we still want to meet you,
how like started all that tactics again. And I was
still in the place in my life where it was
still very discontent. I was like, not married, didn't have kids,
was not happy with my job. So perfect way for

(19:37):
them to lure me in.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
I got to say, it's kind of brilliant going to
games like Second Life to find people to recruit, because
you're going to you're probably more likely to find an
isolated or lonely population on their people who are in
search of community and maybe haven't had as much of

(20:00):
it in person and would be maybe excited at the
opportunity to have that in person.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, those little fuckers.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
Yea, yeah, and yeah, yeah, you can be surrounded by people,
I mean, you were one of seven, but they're not
satisfying relationships and so they know, you know, hey, people
on Second Life might want to join us in real life.

Speaker 3 (20:22):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Okay, when they started reaching back out, what made you decide? Hey,
this place they're describing sounds like worth going to.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
There was a guy involved and the kid. Yep, yep,
there's a guy there. I started talking to and because
I was craving a relationship and he had a daughter, Boom,
my instant fantasy come true, right, fying sealed delivered. So
when I traveled up there Labor Day weekend twenty sixteen

(21:04):
and I saw him with this little girls, I was like,
oh my gosh, this is it. This is where I
need to be. I'm done. These are like my relationship,
here's my family. I've been dying to have.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Find me up and you like a black mirror Hallmark movie.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yes, yes, okay, what were you about to say, Lilo? Sorry,
you knew them before you went, or you met them
once you went.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
I knew them before and when I reconnected with them,
we started doing zoom call and that zoom skype calls.
Zoom wasn't done, that skiped calls, faith timed, We were
doing all that things. I started talking to them like
every minute, every day when I was off work. Basically
what I did in second life. Just now in real life,

(21:50):
they started becoming the people. They started becoming the ones
I filtered everything through.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Wow, how did they market this community that you now
called Crazyland? How did they present this place to you?

Speaker 3 (22:05):
We're all misfits too, We're all people who get it.
We were outcasts in our family. We didn't sit in anywhere.
We are just like you, and we all build our
small community, this community together. We're a family that was
very strong in there. That's the buzzword. We're a family.
It might not be blood family, but we will be

(22:27):
stronger than your blood family. We will care more for
you than your blood family ever.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
We will my God, sign me up. If I'm in
your position, yep, one, why would I not go?

Speaker 3 (22:38):
And they were like, you're you're not this because growing
up also, I've always wanted to learn things like guys do,
Like I want to know how to change the oil
in a car. I want to know how to use
carpentry tools, like I want to do that get my
hands dirty. But no one ever taught me. And they're like, oh,
we got you. We'll teach you how to do these
tangible things that you won't have any guy. You don't
need to rely on any guy, you'll be a strong

(22:59):
and ended woman. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
Where was it? Where was crazy Land?

Speaker 3 (23:06):
So this place was in upstate New York, about an
hour north northeast something north of Albany. It's in just
below the outer on the mountains, so you feel like
up this mountain and it's ran between Glotterusgoe and Kroga
Lake in it does gorgeous. New York State itself is gorgeous.

(23:27):
I kind of get over driving back and forth seeing
the fall foliage. I was there during the winter seeing
the snow cap like mountains in the distant, gorgeous, gorgeous place.
But my the area I lived in was the poorest
place in New York.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
And just to clarify something you mentioned in your conversation
earlier as well, this was not Nexium, despite it being
your Albany totally unrelated.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Not xim though. It's interesting because I was there at
the same time Nexium was starting to be blown up.
Oh it was in When I heard that on was like,
oh my gosh, and I am convinced. The head guy
of my group, because he lived in Renseleer, where Keith
Vanieri is from, was like, I would not be surprised

(24:12):
if he knew Keith or read some information about him,
had some like somehow because there was very similar things.
You would say, can.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
That is so interesting because my my cult leader growing up,
and Keith Ranieri also like would like observe each other
because they knew about each other. It's so they like
really do model. They like watch each other and like
model their own ship after the other person, which is
so fucking weird.

Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, yeah. Watching the Bow was like,
oh wait, what wow?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Interesting? Can you tell us what was actually happening there?
Like physically, what were they doing on the property? Was
a business?

Speaker 4 (24:58):
Right, looked like too and it was this guy.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
It was awful. So but even though I knew it
was awful, I could see it. I want the audience
to know. I was so captivated by having this family,
having this guy and this kid, so the awful crap
in the background. I was like, I can kind of
make do with this because I have my family. That

(25:22):
that was the big draw at that time. So at
one point they are there thirteen of us living in
a single wide trailer.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Whoa, yeah, how it happened.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
It was insane, But that's why we call it crazy Land.
Thank you mom.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Towards the end, the head guy got a camper and
some people were living in the camper and we also
had about it seven kids from me and just a newborn,
all the way up to seven living there too. Yeah,
I see you all is fair. Yeah, so you're like family. Yeah,
so it felt like it was a commune. It really

(26:04):
was a little commune on painted plywood floors and walls.
The bathrooms could only the toys might be flushed once
a day, so very poor living conditions.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
So one toilet for thirteen people that can only be
flushed one time per day, I.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Like physically can't have you guys aren't pooping like how.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
They There was, there was, and there will be times.
I'm like, all right, I guess I'm going outside. I'm
not going in that thing.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
I was gonna say that at that point I would
rather just do that. That's crazy pretty much.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (26:40):
And the second system hadn't been pumped like two years
or something like that, with the wanting the run, yeah,
the running rope water, this is where the layers come.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
This is yeah yeah wow.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
But at the same time, I'm I'm with you, like
you got the man you got the kid. I see,
it's kind of like camping and there's l i'n't like camping,
and I'm codependent.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
So I can fix everything.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
I have the money.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
What we can change this. Sign me up. I can
rescue all these people. I have the answers. We can
change all of this. But we the running water, like
we couldn't drink the water or anything like that. We
had to actually go to like a stream to get
actually water we could drink with and everything to cook
with during the winters. We had. They called it the dragon.

(27:30):
I'm doing air worlds. This is this huge like woodstove
type thing that at times like everyone, I want people
to know everyone's on government assistance. I'm not dissing anyone
who's on that, but these people were definitely misusing the system.
They could have easily worked. They took. They manipulated system
so they could take what they want. So those who

(27:51):
are on it those who need it, and these people
didn't need it, and they were using it for those
who didn't need it. I was so I was mad
about it. At the same time, I started be one
of them. I got on assistance too, so when the
wood would run out, we would have to go out
chop the wood and like call it in and stack
the wood and throw it into Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
What was kind of the reasoning of we need to
be on assistance because we're so busy.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
Our draw is the government owes us. We have worked
so hard, we have this hard, crappy life. They owe us.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah, I mean listen, get I get the logic. Yeah, yeah,
A lot of people I know would probably feel the
same way. But didn't you mention that there was some
kind of machinery.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, so they had they called they said they had
a quote unquote landscaping snow plowing company. They really didn't.
That was their way to get a little bit of
money here and there when we were really like when
the snap ran out, when everything ran out, we needed
this money or when my money he ran out. That's

(29:01):
the little income they had here and there to get
their quote unquote tax right off. So they there's this
big plot of land next door that they had a
dump truck, they had a bacco, They had tons of
tractors and trucks that were always broken down. We always
had to fix them and everything. So the front of
this lot looked kind of nice. But because it backed

(29:23):
up into the woods. All the crap and garbage was
hidden within the woods, Like I wan't be surprised that
there was bery bodies on this land like dead.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
As Yeah, this is wild. So how many adults actually
lived there at that time?

Speaker 3 (29:40):
About thirteen of us? Six seven?

Speaker 2 (29:44):
And can you tell us who the man will call
Ron was?

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yes? Yes, so he and his wife all call her
Nilly no one. Ever, they referred to everyone as either
brother's sister or a daughter son, and only one child
there was actually blood related. So when you came into
this family and they set up the premise of everyone

(30:10):
who came there, like I said the war was an outcast,
they're like, oh the family, your family kicked you out,
you don't have a place to go. Come here, we'll
give you a place to stay, which, in and of
him South is it's great, that's wonderful. But they never
set up people to be like, Okay, let's help you
get a job, let's help you move out to get rent.
So everyone's day under that guise of my brother, sister

(30:35):
or daughter son. So he referred to me as his sister.
The guy I was with will call Jeremy as their son.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh weird, Yeah, okay, what do you think the reason
for that distinction was.

Speaker 3 (30:51):
That the like I said, the budget's word was the family,
we are now your family, We are now the people
you refer to that we are better than that.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
And but here partner being his son, your boyfriend being
his son, was that? So he was because he was
needing to be below him, do you think versus his
brother so.

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Below him because he was there quite a few years
before me and Jeremy. He's a sweetheart, but he was
also a bit on the slower side, so he was
taken advantage of in that way. And he was also
very hard working and everything. And he had known Ron
all his years, so he was kind of like that

(31:33):
dad figure to him. Okay, and that's where the sun
came along. But when I came along, it's like, oh, no,
you're like my sister. I'm amaw you do. You're like
my sister. But yet the relationship we had was very
it was not brother sister whatsoever, whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Yeah, yikes.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Were all of the people in this community were they
also playing the game at some point and did any
those relationships reflect what the relationships have been in the game.

Speaker 3 (32:04):
Yeah, they were all playing the game, and a lot
of the girls that were there were basically darters.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
Yeahs and air quotes, got.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
You yeah, daughter and air quotes yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
On the game they were daughters.

Speaker 3 (32:18):
They were daughters. They were on hos of air quotes, darters.
Everyone eventually had avatar in this game. The guys eventually
like feeded out. They're like, we don't want we actually
want to go out and do real life things. And
when I say quote air quotes again real life, it's
let's tinker around on the dump truck. Let's use this
bacco to say we're doing stuff around the house, but

(32:39):
we're really not. So everyone eventually had an avatar in
this game.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
Was there just one computer? I mean, I'm just like,
how was their internet if there wasn't even Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Before I came along, I'm not sure where the money
came in. I had my suspicions of who was a
cash cow before me, But when I came in, I was.
I had the role of the cash cow. I had
the cash, I have the means. But when you were
walking to the trailer, there was like a sixty and
flat screen TV. So yeah, so they very much prided
their things. There were two computers, one was Nelly's computer

(33:16):
that that was hers. But then there was this other
computer everyone could rotate using. And some people have laptops
the would use the game for. But so they whenever
they got their tax right off, it would go, I
want to go into the house. It would go into
their stuff all in the game. Yeah, into the game
and actually physical stuff like new TV, new Xbox, new computer.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
New laptop, but not a toilet that you can flash
more than exactly wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
Second life was more important than first life.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Stuck exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Dad, Ron and Ron used second line too.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, he did when I was on there, use it wholeheartedly.
But when I left, he didn't feel the need to anymore.
And he was the one who reached out to me.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
Oh I was yes.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, So Ron's kind of like going on here searching
for people who have motivation, real jobs, caring and bringing
them to this world.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
I want to put it past them.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, but once you were there, you were not working anymore.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
I told everyone back here in Pennsylvania that I was.
I was part time because when I was planning to
move up there, I was looking for a job. I
was trying. I was trying to find that job, and
there actually was a part time job around the town
I was living in. I was going to be living
in up there, and so I used that to my advantage, like, oh,

(35:00):
I can say this is my job. I can say
this is where I'm getting So my mom believed it,
Hope Live and Singer. My dad didn't. But my mom
was like, oh cool, even though she also her shit
radar was up. She's like, this is crap.

Speaker 2 (35:15):
This is so wrong. Were any of the other adults
recruited from Second Life to come or was it just you?
Just me, okay, okay, I've just never heard of this.
I've just never heard. I mean, it must happen all
the time, I've just never heard of it. It's wild.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
I'm surprised they didn't keep you working to keep your
more money flowing. But I also realized that they probably
don't want you speaking to other people outside of the
group exactly.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
Like when I visited there September twenty sixteen, and I
was planning to move at the beginning of the year
in twenty seventeen. But going back and forth, I was
there when was every weekend, driving from PA all the
way up there every weekend. It was my escape from reality.
It was my escape from life here in Pennsylvania. Thought
I ate it at the time that eventually I allowed

(36:06):
them to convince me so much to just run away
up there in the middle of the night in November eight,
twenty sixteen, and they just were like, And my parents
came about two weeks later for my birthday just because
they wanted to see. They had no idea what was
going on.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
My mom.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
There's like two parts of his story. It's my part,
my mom's part. My mom's amazing. She was fighting for
me so hard down here in PI. Love my mom
so much that when she saw I left my apartment,
she like broke down and started screaming and wailing in
my apartment when she saw it. Just yeah, yeah, Mom
was great. But they came up there, and I was

(36:47):
trying so hard to get them on board with this,
but we're like, we're not having it. That's a shit.
It was interesting looking back that I can see Ron
in the distance watching my parents parents like a hawk.
They were not He was not happy. My parents were there, like,
He's not gonna say no, don't come see your daughter,

(37:08):
because they just wanted to see what I was living in.
They just wanted to see that physically I'm still okay
and not being held against my will. He was like
very distant, not the wrong I knew. He was like
very personable, was talking to me, saying all these like
things about his past, philosophogal talks to them, everything like that.

(37:29):
But my parents came. Oh no, he wasn't having any
of it. So when they left, and I broke down, going,
what's wrong? Why don't my parents see how great this is?
Why aren't they on board? And just so upset that
I could see the disconnect between me and my parents,
And deep down I knew why, but I didn't want
to voice it. He was like, they don't understand this

(37:51):
is good for you. You're going everyone needs to go
through a rebellion phase. We're actually your family, were the
people you need to trust. We are like mom are
never going to get it, and she can't get on board,
just forget about her. Woh John.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
So that's some real isolating tactics trick. I'm surprised he
let them come, But it also makes sense to me
because it was so early. I feel like typically it
takes time to truly convince someone to be fully isolated.
From their loved ones, and if it was only two
weeks and he wouldn't have earned that yet.

Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yes, I didn't make trips back down to during my
time up there, like for Christmas. My grandfather died during
the time that I was up there, and he was
constantly messaging me like he I was on his radar
that He's like, okay, I know that she comes. She's

(38:45):
very knowledgeable, like she I'm not fully at that time
fully streak smart smart, but because I had therapy, I
had years therapy before this, It's like she knows, she
is very easily her My brain is bleaking.

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Critical thinking thinking.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Would eventually come back, and he did not want that
to so he was constantly like, we missed you up here.
It's not the same without you here, lost without you here.
Jeremy's lost without you here. You're a huge part of
this family. We need you back, Like anytime I was away,
constantly messaging me, make how much it's still attached.

Speaker 4 (39:23):
How much older than you was he.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
Probably between ten and fifteen years. He was late thirties
at the time I was up there, got you forties.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
So there's an authority dynamic between you two. I feel
like we were just talking about this with our guest
who was on one tree Hill. Why am I blanking
on her name? Meg? And what is her name?

Speaker 3 (39:50):
Book?

Speaker 2 (39:51):
It was amazing, right, yeah, so much so yeah, so good.
But it just that same thing of like when she
left and she was away, they're just constantly trying to
talk to her, keeping her brain in the group at
all times, because God forbid she would start questioning or
thinking critically.

Speaker 3 (40:11):
You know, yes, yeah, yeah, I related that.

Speaker 4 (40:13):
I was gonna say.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
The story reminds me besides the fact that they were
using her as keep working, don't do Broadway, keep on
these like shows that pay more money, money, money, money, money,
So what was like their what was their ultimate want
from you? Like, what was their purpose with you?

Speaker 3 (40:33):
It was that money, Yeah, and to like do up
the house better, do a little bit things better. But
they didn't want me to go out and get a
job because they didn't want me to leave. So once
I also when my bank account was running low, I
got a credit card and he was the co signer
on it. So that was the other thing too, that

(40:54):
we could use up all this credit card line and everything.
By it, I was racking up the debt. So even
though I wasn't. Their money wasn't going in and he
the jobs he did, he would put a little bit
maybe two hundred three hundred here and there, but it
was still okay, you have the good credit. Let's get
a credit card. That's easy. We can easily pay it off. Eventually,

(41:17):
we can pay it off with taxes. That was the
big thing. Taxes, taxes, taxes, let's get that tax right off.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Oh god, which just sigh. Yeah, why are they all
the same? I know, I want to know a little
bit more about your understanding now of Ron's psychology. I mean,
it sounds like he had everybody pretty tightly controlled. Was
the control part of the appeal for him? Or was

(41:47):
it all of the appeal for him? You think being
able to control people?

Speaker 3 (41:51):
I think it was all the appeal. Yeah, having people
to do various little things. He had Nelly, who was
a quote unquote wife taking care of the house, even
though there was a lot of discontentment in their marriage.
He had the air quotes again, family. He wanted. He
had someone to do the work for him. That was Jeremy.

(42:13):
He was the one doing like he would be up
early outside getting everything prepped. Well, Ron's up till like
twelve thirty one, oh my god, in the morning and
in the afternoon, because he would have to go to
bed into like three thirty four in the morning. So
he had all these people keeping him, having like a
little as much as you can there a cushion life.

Speaker 4 (42:34):
Got you would he be staying up that late playing
the game?

Speaker 3 (42:38):
No, he wasn't playing the game. He was just on TV. God.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, so he's just a lazy little fucker who just
wants to be a prince and have everyone do everything
for him.

Speaker 3 (42:48):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
And what were you Did you feel like in love
with Jeremy at this time or like.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
What I was? I was very much in love, which
is why when I my critical thinking started kicking in,
I didn't want to come running back with the tail
between my legs. I had so much pride. My pride
really got into the way that I was like, I
love him and these kids, the kids that were there.
If there wasn't these kids there, I pretty much probably

(43:14):
would have been back sooner. I didn't want. I felt
like I had to protect these kids because I was
providing the food, the electricity, the warmth, and I was like,
I cannot let these kids starve. I don't want anything
to happen. He used those kids manipulative to keep me there.

(43:34):
So between my love for Jeremy and these kids, that's
what I was like, how can I figure out how
my cake and eat it too that I can kind
of disconnect from these people, move out of this place
into my own place, but still be close enough to
kind of be a part of it where Jeremy won't
be upset, that we can still be in but not

(43:55):
fully in.

Speaker 4 (43:56):
Did you try to find that happy medium?

Speaker 3 (43:58):
I did? I love and apartments. I started looking for
jobs and he was not happy. He would say, he
was like, oh, yeah, you're not happy. You need to
go on work. You need to do some work. Who
knows when we'll get our landscaped, be company up in
the spring or whatever. Yeah, go out and find a
part of time job. But when I would be like, oh,
look at this place, He's like, Oh, I don't know

(44:19):
about the place for you guys. I don't know if
the daughter she would really like that there?

Speaker 2 (44:25):
You know, like, yeah, whose kids were they other than
Jeremy's kid? Who did they belong to?

Speaker 3 (44:33):
And this is why I say, is that ongoing Jerry's
Springer episode. These kids were two of the girls there
had had kids one because the girl, I'm just gonna
gonna say, they were both Jeremy's exes living in this place.
He brought them in and they stayed.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Oh shit, yeah, okay, Yeah, that's fun for you.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
Ongoing Jerry Springer episode. And they are also people who
they're not fully with it. There are more on the
slower side. Again, you to manipulate them and what happened.
So they very much trusted me to act like a
parental role to these kids. So those two girls had

(45:16):
two kids of their own there, and then we brought
in another fam Another girl had three kids there too,
So we were bringing in people as we as I
was living there.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah, whoa, who is the new one? Who was the
new woman?

Speaker 3 (45:34):
She was just somebody who knew one of the girls
in the group, okay, And she's like, I need a
place to stay. I'm getting kicked out. I can't let
my kids starve and go cold, and we're like.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
Yeah, come on in, none of you guys better go
to the bathroom.

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Yeah. It was insane. Yeah, basically going outside during the
winter to was like yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Oh my god, Yeah, I have to know what the
sleeping arrangements were, because how I cannot I still can't
process how you all would fit in that.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
It was impressive. I will say this. Ron was a
really smart dude. He knew his shit, he knew he knew,
and he was able to look at a space and
be like, how can we make people fit in there?
So they added on a little room for me and Jeremy.
There were three rooms. There was a three rooms along

(46:36):
the hallway and like the masterroom air quoting that in
the back. So the one room by the living room
they set up two little toddler coots who are the
first two girls who were there, Kenzie and the other girl,
and then one of the of Jeremy's ex's let there.
Then they had another room where the blood sun of

(47:01):
Naly and Ron lept there and something he had a
bunk bed, so sometimes another person was able to go
in there.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Wow yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
And then there's a third room in the back that
a couple slept there, and then Nally slept in the
back while Ron slept in the living room most of
the time. Okay, and when people came along with the
new girl came along with her kids, that's when the
camper came along, got you and went to gotcha?

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, okay, okay, And I have to ask this question
because this is just what inevitably comes up with these situations.
Was Ron sexually abusing anybody?

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yes? I found out later, Yes, he didn't me for
there was definitely if it wasn't for Jeremy, he definitely
would have. He definitely would have gaus. Looking back, there
were sexual conversations between him and I. That's why I
said he didn't treat me like it's just cure because
of the conversation. But he was actually abusing.

Speaker 2 (48:07):
To the girls there. Yeah, the adult girl's adults, and.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
I fully I fully believe the kids too. I cannot
prove it. But with things, and I can't get too
much into this because there's a trial going on with
my ex regarding some stuff. I would not be surprised,
like just looking back kindstinks always twenty twenty that I'm like,

(48:33):
he has to be too, he has to be. How
can he not be?

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, oh my gosh, what a nightmare.

Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, very, this is awful.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
Very, I'm very sorry, which is why those kids I felt,
even though I wasn't able to protect them. There's all
this crap going on that I didn't know until later.
I felt like I had to protect them. I was
the most sane of this insane place. Yeah, want to
get some structure to these kids.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
That in stig makes so much sense to me, And yeah,
it is such a useful tool on his part, which
is not like, yeah, anyone who comes in and see
these kids in this situation is going to be like, well, fuck,
now I have to take care of these kids. Now
I have to make sure that these kids are safe.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Like it's just playing on your instincts and yeah, making
you take care of them. I'm wondering how, like, how
did your thought process begin to change when you're in
the deepest part of it, Like, how are you reconciling? Yeah,
how are you reconciling what's happening?

Speaker 3 (49:37):
It was very much pride, very prideful, because deep deep down,
I mean, there's no when you go to use a
bathroom full of poop, you that's it. That's the like
visual like, Okay, this is really no pun intended crappy situation, like,
there's no But I was just like, okay, how I

(49:59):
kept thinking how I change this around for people? I
wanted to rescue these people, not just the kids, but Jeremy,
all the even these two exes who I had a
battle back in my back and forth in my mind,
like I can't believe I'm living here with them, But
at the same time, how can I better them? I cared,

(50:21):
I cared so much for these people at the same time,
so it's like, I want to save these people. I
want to rescue these people. I had the knowledge I
can do this and a pride of Okay, I chose this,
so I'm going to make the best of my situation
as much as possible to.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Yeah, probably, like not wanting the people who had been
like this is kind of weird to be right.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Yeah, it sounds to me like, you know, you were
describing earlier how you want to learn how to do
the things that the men can do, and it sounds
like you have this really like figure it out, can
do attitude, which.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Oh, if I had a cult, you'd be the first
person I would have joint. And you're like, you know,
hard working, smart, Like it sounds like your hands were
really getting dirty, but you were enjoying it.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Yeah, I mean I was learning things that like I
was learning carpentry, skilled I wrote a snowmobile, I wrote,
I learned how to drive a bacco. We were tearing
down trailers and everything. So I was doing stuff that
i've around here were in the county I live, There's
no way I could get that. So I was learning

(51:30):
useful tools. I'm like, oh, this is so cool. I
can do this. It was giving me the strength to go,
I can do this. I'm not a helpless woman. I
can use a drill. Now I write all this, I
can use a chainsaw and survive. This is amazing.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
So did that kind of make you feel as though
like now your first life was where the real magic
and like stuff was and you didn't need the second
life anymore because your first life was like meeting your needs.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
Yeah, very much, so very much. So I did not
go on that game at all when I was up there,
So yeah, they were all on it. I was like,
I'm going to be outside with the boys, show me
how to use the oil, like I was.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Doing all that. So how long were you did You
actually live there for a year and a half And
you know, your parents obviously were suspicious in the beginning,
and that came early on. What about like a little
bit further in like six months a year in like
what was your relationship with them? Like I so I.

Speaker 3 (52:30):
Actually cut when I When was it that I cut them off?
I did eventually cut them off, very much like I
would say Happy Birthday to my mom, I would say
Happy Mother's Day, like do the nice daughter stuff. But
there was definitely I did not want to hear it.
My head was in the sand, like Ostrich, I'm like, nope,

(52:51):
didn't leave me alone. I'm doing what I'm doing and everything.
And they I did not know this at the time,
but they were doing investigators on their side just to
see like what's going on? Who are these people my
daughter is there with? So they were and they were
doing a lot on their side of like my dad

(53:13):
was more the one who was asking, gently asking the
questions while I was down there like trying to. Like
Joyce said in her book.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I was gonna say, yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Build that relationship my mom, my dear amazing mom. She's
one who can kind of have no filter and when
it comes to me, she's like, I'm not going to
lie to you, like I'm not going to hold back.
This is grap I just got to get it out.
Then you do with it. What you will. So my
mom was definitely the powerhouse of like we like she
was praying, she was like this is awful. We need

(53:45):
to get you out of this, and everything, well, my
dad was gently probing and asking these questions. When I
was down there and still trying to maintain a relationship
as much as possible.

Speaker 4 (53:56):
How did when did it start to collapse?

Speaker 3 (53:59):
So I came down for my birthday November twenty seventeen
and actually today's my birthday, Actually today's my birthday birthday,
and my dad took me off to to eat. I
forget what was lunch for dinner, and we were talking

(54:19):
doing the nice to be things, and he goes and
my family knows, calls me Victoria. So he's like, Victoria,
here's what I want you to do. I just want
you to start asking questions and observe. That's all.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
I want you to smart, smart to start asking questions
and observe.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
Yep, ask me. And at that time there were things
slowly I was like, wait a minut, does that add up?
Does that add up? And that was like the affirmation
I needed to go, Okay, maybe I should. Dad is
my and my dad is one who when he's very quiet,
like everyone just hushed because he has the wealth of knowledge.

(55:00):
He has so much wisdom. It's like, okay, dad, Like
mom's always saying this, and of course I do like
my mom, like you know, it's a fair and s now.
But it's like, okay, Dad, you're affirming this. So and
that's what started it that I started slowly poking holes
and kind of making notes on a story Ron would

(55:20):
give then follow it up in a month be like,
so you said that your uncle's in the mafia and
that he had a heart attack, but he now is
back in the hospital for cancer, right, what like slowly asked,
like like I said, poking holes, asking questions and just

(55:43):
making notes of all that in my mind and going okay,
this is crazy, it's not right, And as there was
still a fog in my mind, but it was enough
for my cognitive distance to kick in and go, okay,
I don't I don't want to about of the state.
I love Jeremy, I love these kids. I can't start

(56:05):
staying here. The more people that were coming in, he
was starting to listen to other people and not me anymore.
Uh huh. I started to see that shift. I'm like,
she's not like, she's not meeting the criteria for this.
What she's doing is wrong. She's manipulating things now, and
you're listening to her. So there started to be a

(56:25):
shift in the group that.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Was like Ron would start to listen to someone knew
who had her outd yep. Oh interesting, yep.

Speaker 3 (56:34):
And I was like, hmm hmm, this isn't because I
think he was having sexual relations with her.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Mm yeah, what were some of the other things, Like
prior to your dad saying that, were there moments where
you'd be like, huh, that doesn't seem like it's true,
or like did anything come up for you like that?

Speaker 3 (56:55):
He is very good at the fantasy world do He
would say all these things about his family where he's like,
I have this aunt who's in the circus, and at
that time I was making I was taking plastic bags
and making actual like toape bags out of them. It's
called porning, like reuse and recycle. It's very cool. So
anyone who likes croucheting look it up. It's very helpful.

(57:18):
And he's like, I can get all these plastic bags
so you can make all these toads and sell them.
My aunt is in the circus. She has tons of them.
It's going to be dropped off in a few weeks.
Never happened, and anytime I asked, it was like, what's
going on? Where are these things? And at that time
it's like, okay, whatever. I don't really know his family.

(57:39):
But then I started talking to because his blood family
lived nearby, and I started asking the blood family a
few questions, like do you have the aunt who's in
the circus? What?

Speaker 1 (57:50):
No, never moved back when in the circus bringing me
the plastic bags, right, Like.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
Do you have a brother in the mafia? Like how
many brothers do you have?

Speaker 2 (58:03):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (58:03):
I only have one brother? Oh, and I'm thinking about
I was told you had like five oh, things like that.
Little things like that.

Speaker 4 (58:12):
I was like, hmm, and how would your brain explain
them away?

Speaker 1 (58:15):
Would it just be like, well, if you have a
brother in the mafia, of course they're not going to
like say it or.

Speaker 4 (58:21):
Stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Yeah, just was like, Okay, I'm not going to question that.
I don't want to die, right, I don't want to
do that. Or like he was like, we're in the Freemasons,
and I don't know that much about the Freemasons, right,
I was like, Okay, it's that's a secret group. I
don't want to like, I don't want people come out
of the woods and attack me.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
Right of course he's saying, yeah, of course he's saying
things that have some like an air of secrecy around them.
So exactly plausible.

Speaker 4 (58:52):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Did he present himself as like a some kind of
special authority of some kind on life or spiritually or
anything like that.

Speaker 3 (59:05):
It was he was spiritually No, because his birthday was
on October thirty first, so he always said he was
part of the devil. He was like the double spawn. Okay, lovely,
more like I know so much about history and everything,
and I have all this like like I said, it's survivalists.

(59:25):
I have all these things that help you survive in
the world that people cast decide that people don't know.
How good at a mechanic I am, at a landscaper
I am. I have all these tricks that can help
you succeed in life. By why you don't need to
go to a nine to five job. I can help
you survive with these little locations things.

Speaker 2 (59:47):
Was there this sense of like an impending apocalypse or
was there a prepper element to all of it.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
There wasn't a prepper element, they didn't have the money,
but it was definitely like we are going to protect
our own though, like I'm going to teach you guys
how to survive that if, like it wasn't preppy, but
if something were to happen, you know how or if
if you ever do leave but don't you can survive
out there. Right, It's a fun way to survive. And

(01:00:16):
we're and one of the big things that we're going
to take this off the grid and we're going to
live on our own where no one can touch.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
This type of thing. Right, that would get me. I've
talked about this before, but my boyfriend and I we
like started getting into like learning how to like we
suck at it. We don't we would not survive currently,
but we took one class and like, oh, this is
maybe gonna be our personalities now. Like I totally understand

(01:00:44):
the appeal of that also as someone who's like I
want to do what we always do, you know, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
And like the government, who was like the governments into everything,
so we need to avoid the government, even.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
Though we're saying less and you're getting paid from the gun.

Speaker 3 (01:01:02):
Yeah right, right, that's one of I remember after the
time my dad asked told me to do that. That
was one of things I came back. I was like, wait,
what this doesn't make We're going and then the government
isn't everything, but yeah, we're going to take money for okay,
make it make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
It doesn't right right right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Wow, So you're in deep you like you now are
caring for these people like they are your family, and
in some ways the children are what's kind of the
straw that breaks the camel's back.

Speaker 3 (01:01:33):
Honestly, it was when that the new girl came in
and just how she was treating these kids and there
was so much chaos going on and everything, and that
like the whole structure was starting to shift, and once
again I felt like I don't fit in here, and
I'm trying to voice these things and he's not listening,

(01:01:56):
Like I don't feel safe anymore, and I don't see
these kids being safe. So I need a solution to
so kind of be around because Jeremy, he would Our
relationship was back and forth at times, so to be like, oh, yeah,
this is weird, this isn't right, and be like, oh no,
you're making this up, Like he's not like that but

(01:02:17):
so I was like, Okay, I need to be close
enough so he can still maybe take time to see
it on his own, but have my own space that
I set the rules. That's distance enough, a safe place
for these kids to escape too.

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
And what did that look like.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
I wouldn't be like an apartment, my own job, an
apartment nearby that it was this place to be like, hey,
we'll take them for the weekend, We'll take them for
a few days or anything, and they can stay here
for a little bit, to set up a good structure
for these kids, like, hey, this is well running water
looks like Look, it's amazing, flashing the toilet looks like

(01:02:58):
phenomenal things like that. That's like, these are decent human
things we need. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
Was Ron upset, like how did he react when you
got a place?

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
Well, I didn't get a place.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Oh you didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:03:13):
I didn't. That's what I wanted, and that's why I
started looking forward. That's where he was like, Oh, that's
a good idea. But then an hour later or so,
or maybe the next day, he's like that place isn't good.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Not that place, not that pay Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
And I wanted to get back into the medical field
and Abo. I was like, you know what, I'll take
any job. He goes, Oh, you're not good enough for
that job. You're not good enough. You don't let your
skills of being a medical assistant sit here at McDonald's
or a factory where I'm thinking start low and work
my way up. Let me just get out there again.
And he's like, oh no, no, no, no, you need something that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Oh. He was like, you're you're too good for that job. Yes, yeah, okay, okay.
What was the thing that actually got you out?

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
So I remember one morning I was putting a crap
ris of may out to different places in indeed in
New York, and I was like, Okay, if I'm meant
to come back home to PA, I'm going to apply
for a job down here that if I'm meant to
have this job, then I'm meant to leave and everything.

(01:04:22):
And so that was in the back of my mind.
And the thing that I really solidified it is one
night I was couldn't sleep and I'll let people know
I was popping nine ten minut drill Night Justice sleep
because I whoa, yeah, I could not sleep there. It
was awful. And I came out and I was like

(01:04:45):
I'm not happy here. I need to go and everything,
and he goes, well, you're not happy here. She just
had more sex with Jeremy. And I can teach you.
I can teach you how oh.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
My god, what a creep.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Yeah, and that I was like, I need to get out.
I need to get out. I don't know how. I
am terrified, but I need to get out. And for
me getting out was still, Let's find an apartment, let's
find a job, let's do still okay, I still want
to pease them and have Jeremy be close enough and everything,

(01:05:21):
but I need to get out and now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
And did you find I mean you, It sounds like
you got the job in PA maybe and then ended up.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
So that's an interesting story. I came down for my
best friend's engagement party, and people knew down here in
PA life wasn't great, that I was not happy. But
that weekend I started letting the truth out, telling people
how awful it was, telling my parents how awful it
was that I am thirteen thousand dollars now in debt.

(01:05:54):
This is all the crap, like there's no running it
look like I can't flush the toilet. They're the running
or I can't drink like all this things. And my
parents were like, you're staying You're not going back home,
and not everyone's parents is able to do this, and
not everyone's stories is like this. But my parents were like,
we're taking the thirteen thousand dollars and paying that off.

(01:06:14):
You pay off cutting that off. We will figure out
how to go get your stuff, we will figure out
how to get up there, but you're staying here. And
about a few weeks later is when I got the
job I currently have right now.

Speaker 2 (01:06:28):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
And it was in PA And did you ever see
any of these people again or was it that this
was kind of hard face?

Speaker 3 (01:06:38):
I still saw them a little bit over Skype because
even though I knew I was safe, I knew this
is where I need to be. I that fall was
still there, the work souid, the brain mush and everything
that was still there. So it was slowly coming out
of that and being like switching wrong voice to my

(01:07:00):
voice again because every time I would hear Ron's voice,
hear him in the back of my mind and I
had to switch that. So jumping back into therapy, really
sharing the truth of all the crap I was in
at about A year later is when I fully cut
off contact with them.

Speaker 2 (01:07:19):
Wow, yeah, and did you still feel like you loved Jeremy?
Like what was how did that resolve?

Speaker 3 (01:07:26):
So that I did? I very much did, and no
one knew that I were in the long half. It
wasn't until the day someone drove up there to get
some of my stuff that I finally had the guts
to tell them I'm not coming back. And it was
the family yeah, and it was yeah, and create the
people with in crazing Land. And it was under the

(01:07:48):
guides of I'm not happy. My mind like, my mind's
breaking down. I didn't have the terminology to say, I'm
in a high control group. This is wrong, this is
all wrong. But I was kind of hiding exactly some
of what I was feeling. And I wanted him out too.

(01:08:10):
I wanted him to come with me because I did
love him. I did care about those that little girl
like it's like I can I have my cake and
eat it too? But when I saw that he was
not willing to budge, He's like, I'm never moving out
of state. I Am never. I was like, Okay, I
care too much about myself that there's someone out there

(01:08:32):
who will care for me, who will fight for my
mental health, who will fight for us to be together,
that it's not us anymore. There are better things on
the horizon for me.

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
Wow, I mean huge, hugely for you.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
And about your draw to like, uh second life games,
did that ever come back or.

Speaker 3 (01:08:54):
A little bit? I shook my head there, but I
was like a little bit. I mean I still have
a draw out to fantasy. But this is why, like
I'm out on aish social media. I won't ever get
back on social media because even though like Facebook is
great and of itself, I compare myself to there's way much. Yeah,

(01:09:14):
that's what starts the discontentment. So instead I am putting
like like I said, I'll always be into fantasy, but
putting that drive into writing into like I now play
Dungeons and Dragons. So if a little bit of fantasy,
but it's in a constructive way.

Speaker 4 (01:09:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
I was gonna say, if Ron would just take all
this energy of like my aunts in the circus and
write a fucking book.

Speaker 2 (01:09:40):
Maybe instead of controlling people.

Speaker 4 (01:09:43):
It's like wild.

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Yeah, it is interesting how many cult leaders do actually write,
that's true, write a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:51):
Fantasy novel or I mean he sounds like he's a
This is all like a sexual predator game at the
end of the day, and Harry Potter is not going
to fix any of it. But you know, really there
has to be more outlets than yeah, just controlling a
group of people with one toilet.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Like when I came out, I did blow off the
roof of that place, because eventually a year later I
called CPS on these people. I was like, if even
though I'm not in contact those kids, I want to
know at least I tried to do something for these kids. Yeah,
so I did call in everything, and at that time
I still was kind of connected to people on the

(01:10:35):
outside who weren't in that group, who lived around that area,
and they're like, oh yeah, they came. CCS came and
people started moving out. Well fast forward to last year
twenty January twenty twenty four, where a whole new layer
of stuff happened and that I found out what was
going on up there, and this is where it was hit.

(01:10:57):
There was a nail on the coffin and like, this
is a high control groo, this is a cult. He
started bringing new people in. YEP. I was like right
there that new people are coming in new kids are
coming in like it. Yep. He could only last on
his own for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
Right, yep. Wow. I mean I'm glad that the kids
that were there hopefully moved somewhere a little bit better,
but that that's so sad that more ended up with him.
So okay, I just I want to just go back
to what we were talking about a second ago, because
you're talking about the difference between engaging with fantasy in

(01:11:37):
a way that's like constructive and healthy versus not, And
I wonder how you would articulate what that difference is.

Speaker 3 (01:11:46):
So for me, it's when I start getting so sucked in.
I start and I mean, I'm sure people have a
vision who have an active imagination have this that they
when they read a book, Like when I read a book,
I see everything, I feel what the characters feel. But
when I start going off the deep end of reading plotline,

(01:12:08):
like oh if I made this character to fit in here,
and I am so immersed that I realize, oh, I'm
not connecting face to face with these people. I haven't
really reached out with my real friend right face to
face friends. I have not texted my boyfriend and say, hey,
can you get together? This weekend. When I start dropping

(01:12:29):
off and not doing touch points and meeting with people,
that's when I go, Hmm, what's going on underneath that?
Why am I feeling the need to pool away, isolate
from my real life and dive and curl up deep
into these fantasies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
What's the answer.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Usually at usually i find I'm like, well, one I
the seasonal depression bad gets sense of this time I
really got to be mindful, and it's realizing I haven't
reached out. I've been so focused on me and what's
going on in my life, which is that it's good
to be aware and I want people to know there

(01:13:07):
is the aspect that you've got to be emotionally aware
of what's going on in your life. But when I'm
so inward so focus on this is bad, this is bad,
this is bad, and that echoes in my mind that
I'm not looking out and saying, huh, have I connected
with Susie because she's going through something too, and I'm

(01:13:28):
not doing real life with her word instead of just
me alone in the mud pit, it's like, hey, we're
in this together, let's talk about this together. And then
it brings us out of it, like Okay, now that
we talk about, let's go for a walk, Let's be active,
let's do a life together, Let's have these let's get
let me get out of my mind and connect with

(01:13:49):
someone and say, hey, I'm really struggling with X, Y
and Z. Are you share that with me and we
can do this together. Because life is hard, but we're
meant to be in a community, a face to face
community with humans. That's what we're meant to do.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Yeah, amen, A community that's healthy, that does not feed
the ego of one person exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
There's not one soul leader who makes all of the
decisions exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
And I realized that a lot of people struggle with
the same thing I do, and they're just looking to
voice it too. It's just that person coming along saying
I see you and man, today stuck, this was hard. Yeah,
let me help you in the stuckiness. Let's sit in this,
let's talk about it, Let's let the emotions out the
let's go do something. I can just be a simple

(01:14:38):
walk because I know when I've been in midst of
my deep depression, I don't want to do anything but
just that simple walk in the sun or something, it
changes everything. It's like, Okay, now I can get through
a day a little bit more so.

Speaker 1 (01:14:53):
Damn, I'm so impressed you've you've been on the hero's journey.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
It's therapy, it's I'm so grateful to my therapist long
for the depailing she has allowed pushed me to do.
And it's been hard. I don't want people to think
like every day is great. I still I'm still shocked
about how I run into some things I can. I'm like, whoa, whoa,
that really landed heavy, that triggered something? Why? And there's

(01:15:21):
another layer, there's another layer, like I'm sure you guys
have seen that in your own recovery. That it's just
it's a never ending journey to be willing to face
that and that stuff it and not use something to
cover it up totally.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Yeah, do you have any final thoughts, lessons, words of wisdom.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
My words, oh, wisdom would be just what my dad said,
if you're if for anyone who's listening out there, who's like,
this doesn't feel right, and it doesn't have to be
a high control group, it doesn't have to be a cult.
If you're in relationship, whatever it might be, just stop
ask questions and listen and observe. Yes, just observe, and

(01:16:08):
be willing to go out and just say. And it
takes a lot of courage and give yourself grace as
you're walking this journey of recovery or getting out. It
is hard, but be willing to start trusting that voice
and go to someone and say and just start building

(01:16:30):
a relationship and go, hey, I need help. However that
looks for you, however that turns those words will for you.
Be willing to do that and give yourself grace. Like
I said, as it is a bumpy road, there will
be times you want to go back. I wanted to
go back, and that's okay. That is okay. We are
messy people. You make mistakes and it's okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
Yeah. I love that. I'm so glad you mentioned the
questions thing again because I because I did mean to
bring that up and I forgot. It's just just that
simple thing of allowing yourself to think the unthinkable or
ask a question that you know maybe you're not supposed
to getting curious. Like we just see over and over

(01:17:14):
and over again, that really is the difference between someone
who is indoctrinated and somebody who is not. Is being
allowing yourself to ask the questions, even if it's just inward,
just to yourself. Yep, you know, to go to those
scary parts and be curious. That can be the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
Yeah, that you need.

Speaker 2 (01:17:33):
Thank you so much for talking to us and for
reaching out to us. I'm so grateful that you shared
this story with us. It's so unique and I think
people will relate to it in a new way, which
is amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:17:43):
Thank you so much for having me on here if
I feel honor to be on here.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
Major thanks to Tori, who is a listener of the show,
for calling in with that story. I am so glad
that she did. Other fellow listeners, we'd love to hear
from you as well. Megan, what is your big takeaway
from Tory's story? Which is really fun phrase to say.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
I think that it's mostly just how we live in
a society that is not meeting our needs to the
extent that things such as these and are not cults,
are second life or all these multitude of apps, games, whatever,
are able to kind of take a hold of us.

Speaker 4 (01:18:23):
And it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Yeah, I mean, we we're in the midst of a
loneliness crisis since everyone is you know, well aware on
technology and looking to technolo, which can be great for
helping but also can be even more isolating. And I
know we've talked about loneliness before and how we've experienced it,
and it is amazing how you can really like, you

(01:18:47):
can have people in your life, you can have friends,
you can have a partner, and you can still feel
really lonely. And that, of course is going to lead
so many of us to want to seek out community
in whatever form we can find it, people who understand
us and make us feel heard and like we're not weirdohs.
And yeah, we live in an era now where it's

(01:19:09):
just so much easier for that to be preyed upon, unfortunately,
but we still need community.

Speaker 4 (01:19:15):
Yeah, yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 (01:19:17):
They can be really meaningful and they are for so
many people. It's just also important to make sure we're
connecting with ourselves, with our bodies, with people in real
life as much as we can, because it's just a different.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Experience, yea being in nature, Yeah, it's important. She seems
like she's really found a happy medium, middle ground where yeah, yeah,
it was impressed.

Speaker 2 (01:19:40):
A healthy way of engaging in fantasy and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Totally, well thanks Tory, Thank you Toy, and thank you
listeners for spending another week with us.

Speaker 4 (01:19:50):
If you want to.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Give us a little gift for the holidays, please go
rate us five stars.

Speaker 4 (01:19:54):
And leave us a positive review.

Speaker 1 (01:19:56):
If you don't want to leave us five stars, don't
leave a review at all. Gross who wants to do that?
And as always, remember to follow your.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
Gut, watch out for red flax.

Speaker 2 (01:20:06):
And never ever trust me. Bye. Trust Me as produced
by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

Speaker 4 (01:20:18):
With special thanks to Stacy Para.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

Speaker 1 (01:20:22):
You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
trust Me Cult Podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:20:31):
I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

Speaker 1 (01:20:34):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
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Tory Hess - From Second Life to Wilderness Commune

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Tory Hess - From Second Life to Wilderness Commune