December 11, 2024 • 55 mins
Today is part 2 of our interview with Yoni Shrira, former student at the Family Foundation School, also known as Allynwood, the remote troubled teen program known for a series of lawsuits brought against it as well as over a hundred deaths from overdose or suicide by its former attendees. Last week, we talked about how and why Yoni ended up in the abusive school and the culture of required snitching, and this week he’s going to tell us about the punishments the kids endured, including hard labor and isolation.
He’ll tell us about trying to run away, the origins of the group and the man who created it, how the kids were kept isolated from their families, the way it impacted him after he left, and why he thinks so many of its former students have died.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, this is producer Steve And in the event
that you're still looking for some holiday gifts right now,
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(00:21):
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it out. We would really appreciate it, and from all
of us here on the show, thank you week in
and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
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Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Yeah, I've never lied to you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
Don't Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two Wilderness girls who've actually experienced it.
I'm Lo La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today
is part two of our interview with friend of the show,
Yonie Shreira. He's a former student at the Family Foundation's School,
also known as alan Wood, and as a reminder, this
(01:23):
was a remote, troubled teen program known for a series
of lawsuits brought against it, as well as over a
hundred deaths from overdose or suicide by its former attendees.
Last week we talked about how and why Yoni ended
up in this abusive school and the culture there of
required snitching. And this week he's going to tell us
about the punishments the kids endured, including hard labor and isolation.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He'll tell us about trying to run away, the origins
of the group and the man who created it, how
the kids were kept isolated from their families, the way
it impacted him after he left, and why he thinks
so many of its former students have died.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's super sad, and we talk about this in the interviews,
so I won't get too into it. But you know,
it's already such a vulnerable population teenagers in the first place,
and then people who are struggling with addiction, and then
when you put those things together and then you add abuse,
it's just it's a perfect really really awesome, really really
awful recipe.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
I thought you're just say awesome.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
I know my tongue slived, my tongueless like us.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Correct, you need to quit.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Awful.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
It's awful. It's a perfect storm.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, No, it's freaking horrible and really really sad, and
you will hear more about it shortly and before we
get back into it with Yoni.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Megan, do you have a coldiest thing this week? I do.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Mine is related to the group that I grew up in,
the two by twos. It's been a pretty heavily media
covered case I just saw shared on ABC. One of
the like on and off elders in the church has
been sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in jail
for distributing images of children. And he has some money.
(03:03):
He hired a really good defense lawyer. You know, there
was some seats of doubt planted, but ultimately he was
found guilty, which is pretty hard to do.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
You know, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
This case isn't something that I've been following, per se
or know every detail about, but it did just bring
to light a bigger issue to me, which is like
this kind of built in defense that a lot of
these high control groups have built in, which is that
they say, we're going to be persecuted, right, so already
(03:37):
there's this defense of like unconsciously in people's mind like
oh here it's happening. The persecution is beginning, Like here's
this wonrateful. It's Mams, he's innocent.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
And it's just been really odd to watch.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Are people like doubling down?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Kind of yeah, people double down, people are getting you know,
the people who are left in their beliefs who I
thought were maybe getting a little bit more free kind
of seem like that's gone away. And like, growing up,
I was always taught you're in this one true way
people are gonna persecute you, and like to no one.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Gave a shit.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No one was like like people sometimes were like why
are you guys dressed like that?
Speaker 4 (04:19):
But no one was like stop it. Stop having these meetings.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Of truth, Like no one cares about a home based
Bible group. And my personal opinion, people are like go
off queens, like do.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
What you want.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But as like these systems of abuse start to be revealed,
people are obviously going to start persecuting you because it's
a felony and you should go to jail.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So it's just prosecuting you one night, prosecuting you, one
might say.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So the cognitive dissonance for people is really high. I
totally get it. It is for me as well. It's
just all bizarre. This group that has been so secret
for so long. Just seeing it in headlines is so bizarre, jarring.
It's very uncanny. I don't know how to explain it.
So that's my thought of the week. And just you know,
(05:12):
I can kind of see playing out in news stages too,
and it's.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
A whole thing.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
But anyway, that's all I'm going to say today.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
Lola, that's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Kind of similar, well different, different, but similar in that, Uh, are.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
You going to jail for one hundred and twenty years?
Speaker 7 (05:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (05:30):
But someone is no, he's going to jail for fifty years.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
So the person who's going to jail for anyone who
has been following is Sam Bateman and Sam Bateman is
in jail now because of my mother who went undercover
Shadows see doctor Christine. She went on undercover to gather
evidence to put him behind bars because he was not
only doing the traditional, you know, fundamentalist abusive thing of
(05:56):
taking child brides, but he was doing even more horrendous
things like in between you know, uh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I don't even like getting into the details. I think
it's too like it'slacious, so horrible. The point is he sucks.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
He's a horrible person, and he he sucks.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Is a little bit of an understatement.
Speaker 8 (06:12):
Well yeah, I mean yes, but he really really sucks.
And I'm actually shocked that he gets fifty I don't
know the specifics of the charges, but it's shocking that
he gets fifty years for like these actual, like horrific
acts that he committed against many people and families, whereas
(06:33):
the two by two guy gets triple that for you know,
like that's so interesting, Actually it is interesting. But anyway,
my mom was at the trial, just everybody's over the
moon that this guy's finally like officially behind bars until
he dies unless he lives to age one hundred and Yeah,
it's just an amazing ending to this like pretty scary story.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
We'll talk more about it, but if anyone wants to
read about it, there is a like Tribune article that
gets into all of the details of how and why
they first started recording him, how it took a long
time to get authorities involved, et cetera. And the headline
is a Utah couple that's my mom and my stepdad
infiltrated a new polygamous sect and helped put its abusive
leader behind bars.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
So you can go.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Read all about that. My mom rules, and she is
the ultimate testament to you know, this idea that we
talk about all the time, which is that befriending people
can be significantly more effective in getting them out of
groups than attacking them.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
We'll talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I'm just such a beautiful example of somebody surviving being
in a horrific cult.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
She's an angel.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, and she used that experience to help other people
by sharing her story with them.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It's called yeah yeah, and she's going to be a
guest I think soon, right to talk about all this?
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Yes, okay, beautiful, Well should we talk to Yannie.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Can you tell us a little bit about some of
the punishments that people experienced.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
Yeah, So, like I said, there was like the work
sanction thing if they felt like you were a danger
to yourself or others, which like definitely is quite subjective.
You know, like they would put you in this room
called like ISO, where like it was like this like
six by six, Like I mean, it was like a cell.
It was like you know, like a steel door with
(08:34):
like three bolt locks on it, and there's like a
camera in the corner and there's like nothing in there,
and they'd take like your belt and shoelaces and stuff.
Speaker 6 (08:42):
Did you ever go on there?
Speaker 7 (08:43):
I only went in there once. I kind of did
a pretty good job of like I mean, I definitely
got into trouble there. Like I said, I was like
on those work sanctions and stuff, but you it actually
was usually more in line with like, hey, you're not
quote unquote buying into our program because you know, you're
not like helling on people or something. But it wasn't
like I had very few instances where I was like
(09:05):
punching windows or like you know, doing like outward you know,
like violent shit or anything.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I have to imagine for many of the kids who
came there that had sort of already been their pattern,
like acting out, yeah, in more outward ways, and I'm
guessing those kids experienced a lot more of.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
That for sure. Yeah, there were, Yeah, there were a
lot of kids.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
And also, like I would say, I was there in
an era where it was still they were still doing
like pretty fucked up shit, but it was also at
an era where it was like transitioning into trying to
kind of like they were trying to get some certain.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Like specific like state accreditation.
Speaker 7 (09:45):
And so I remember there were like a few times
while I was there where there'd be like people from
the state who would come and tour it, and they
would be like, all right, everybody, be on your best behavior,
like this person from whatever fucking organ like Department of
Education is coming. And so they they kind of slowly
started to change their approach to certain things where actually
(10:06):
and I, I uh, at some point years later, kind
of did a lot of research like on the place,
and I found these letters that the state had written
back to the school kind of giving their critique of
you know, what needed to be changed in order to
get this accreditation. So anyway, some of the like tactics
(10:28):
that they use changed, and that was kind of like
just after my time. But there were some things that
were like way more over and fucked up before I
got there, Like before they had the isolation room, they
would like roll you up in a carpet and like
duct tape it so you couldn't move, like and just
like kind of like leave you in this like closet area.
Not like I mean, this doesn't mean it's good, but
(10:50):
like not like dark closet you know, with clothes hanging,
but just like this like storage room, right, you know.
Christ And then the corner was a big one where
like they would put you in the corner, which meant
that you just had to if if it kind of
like the first step of that is you would sit
in a chair and face the corner for like all
(11:11):
of your meals or all of your activity time, and
then during class you would sit and face the regular
way just to like do class stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
And then if you got into more trouble, then you'd
have to do like standing face the corner where you
like would have to just stand and face the corner,
and then in class you wouldn't face the corner, but
you would still stand and yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
If they if they thought you were like a potential
like runaway risk, they would you know, put you on.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Flip flops, or if they thought that you were.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
Like flirting a lot or trying to get attention from
like whatever sex you were attracted to, they would put
you on poverty where you had to like wear sweatpants.
And sometimes they'd make you like wear a sign that
said like I'm a slutty little flirt or something.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
I mean that at a slutty little flirt.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's hot.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, they'd be like, all right, let everybody see your dick. Bulls.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
What was the like sleeping arrangements, Like.
Speaker 7 (12:15):
So each family had uh, you know, boys and girls,
but obviously for sleeping arrangements it.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Was like separated. Yeah, so you were.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
In a dorm with guys and it was like bunk
beds and uh yeah.
Speaker 8 (12:34):
Oh.
Speaker 7 (12:34):
And also if they thought you were a runaway, they'd
put you on something called landlock, where they like put
two bunk beds together against the wall, so you had
someone like sleeping right next to you and then like
right above you, so you like couldn't get out without
someone noticing.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
And the property was like in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 7 (12:51):
Oh yeah, middle of nowhere like the closest town and
this is like a shit whole town. Like this town
was fucking like oh man, it was like a shithole town.
Was like that town was like seven miles away.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah, I read that someone did run away once.
Speaker 7 (13:12):
Oh people ran away, not all the time, but people
ran away definitely hardly ever during the winter, you know,
I think I.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Read the story about a story about someone running away
during the winter and razing to death.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
I tried to run away during the winter in the
like dumbest fucking way. I like put on I had
like a car heart jacket with like a hood and
a scarf. And if you there were a few people
there that were over eighteen, like by the end of
their stay. And so if you were over eighteen, unless
you're a court mandated there, you could technically leave whenever
you wanted, but usually you were like about to get
(13:47):
out anyways, and like you know, they might withhold your
like high school diploma if you like leave early or whatever.
So most of the eighteen year olds tend to stay
till till the end. And it was called like walking.
And one day during the winter, I like put on
the jacket and my scarf and like covered my face
and stuff and just pretended. I thought I was like
(14:07):
going to pretend I was like an eighteen year old
who was just walking. And then they obviously quickly realized
because they do like a million like roll calls that
like I was missing, So then they like went and
got me on the road.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
Shut damn, Yary.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
What made you decide to run away?
Speaker 7 (14:25):
I was like, there were like a few pretty dark
periods there, but like the first one in particular was
there when I had been like there like four or
five months and I was on work sanction, and I
think I was just like really depressed.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yeah, there was something weird with the food, right, was
that happening?
Speaker 6 (14:43):
When you were there?
Speaker 7 (14:44):
You had to eat everything that they gave you, and
the food was pretty gross. Oh and also if you
if you misbehave, they could put you on like alternative
meals where it'd be like like like like porridge in
the morning and then like soy burgers for like breakfasts
(15:05):
and lunch. And it was just like that. It was
very much just like just we need to put something
in your stomach, but you're not going to eat any
of the quote unquote good stuff, which was fucking disgusting anyway.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
And when you were on work sanction, how long would
that last for you?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
You'd basically just be like by yourself all day, doing
hard labor and not interacting with people.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Like what was the worst part about it for you?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (15:28):
That was like that was the the It was just
while like the ten hour school day was instead just
like work. And honestly, like I didn't hate the work part.
It was more just like you're not in school, so
like if you're on it for too long, Like there
were kids that had to stay like an extra six
(15:48):
months because they were they were on Yeah, they weren't graduating,
and a lot of parents were like, like, I, technically,
time wise, like should have only been there. I think
it was like nineteen months or something. No, no, twenty months,
But I ended up staying twenty six because I would
(16:08):
have got out in like halfway through senior year. And
my parents were like, oh, we don't want him going
to like a regular high school for six months, like
that's too like dangerous for him or whatever.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Oh man, Yeah, was the education decent? Like the class
was okay fine?
Speaker 7 (16:26):
Yeah, Actually, like they had really high standards for education,
kind of like they just had high like grade standards,
so like if you didn't get a C, it was
actually an F there, so you would have to retake
the class.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Damn.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Yeah, who started it? And what was the like mission statement?
Speaker 7 (16:45):
Yeah, so that's actually kind of where it gets into
the cultiest part. So the guy that started was this
guy or named Tony R. Giros. He was like a
New York guy who had a family. I don't think
he was a drug addict, if I remember correctly. I
think his wife was an alcoholic. And I think he
was like a pretty bad sex addict or just serial cheater.
(17:08):
I don't know if he was a sex addict, but
he was definitely unfaithful to his wife a lot and
might have had some gambling problems. And I think I
think it was like, we should try giving our marriage
another shot and leave New York. There's like too much
temptation here. And so they moved to upstate New York
with their kids and became religious. And I don't think
(17:31):
they were really doing like AA stuff. I think it
was more just they kind of became more religious and
left the city, and I think when they got up there,
they became even more religious. And then one of their
daughter's friends was having a hard time with addiction stuff,
and her parents kicked her out of their house and
they took her in, and then it kind of snowballed
(17:53):
into being like a few of their kid's friends had
that situation happened, and like after a certain period of time,
they were like, oh, I guess you know, we kind
of liked taking in these kids and like helping them
or whatever. And I think at that point it was
kind of like still like pretty altruistic or whatever, Like
they weren't making money off of it, and they owned
(18:16):
this piece of land that the school ended up getting
built on, but at that point it was kind of
just like a farm where kids would go and they
kind of all had chores and would sober up or whatever.
And then simultaneously they met these people at this like
commune in like a neighboring town, and they became friends
(18:36):
with them, and a lot of like their like ideals
kind of aligned. And anyways, that place was like a
full on cult. It was called East Ridge, and like
the history of that place is kind of crazy. So
one of the guys that started AA was this guy
Bill Wilson, and this guy was a sponsor of Bill
Wilson's Oh, and Bill Wilson, like AA and Bill Wilson
(18:59):
were very much like not into religion. And this guy
was like, there are two problems with AA.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
It's not religious enough.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
And the guy that started it is like fucking way
too many women. And so he left and started this
commune and started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
Loila's looking it up.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I feel like this sounds so familiar to me, but okay,
keep going.
Speaker 7 (19:24):
Yeah, he was like left and started this commune and
started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Not the car fucking right.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
He did not become rich, and it was like all
addicts anonymous, and his idea was like it should be
religious based, and every person is kind of like in
a Christian mindset, like every person is a sinner who needs,
you know whatever, some sort of program to make them better.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
So you're the founders of the school are coming into
contact with this with those deep tricks AA call kind
of merging it into something that soon gives birth to
where you ended up.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Yeah, and that colt actually like fractured at some point
over like a disagreement over some stuff, and like half
the people left and they needed jobs, and at that
time this school was starting, and so those people came
and worked at the school. So like my family leaders
were members of that cult prior together.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
Oh wow, And so what were they like, I mean, you.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Know, it's weird.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
It's like, I mean, they were fucking tough. Most of
the family leaders were actually married in real life. They
were very much about like the you know, male female
family system. They were like fully like religious in that way.
But the woman was this woman named Robin, and she
was fucking terrifying. She like had boils all over her
face and she like literally looked like a lizard and
(20:53):
she a lizard, and she was like probably like four
feet eleven. But like this bitch was tough. Like she
was like so tough. Like she would like there'd be
like a kid who would be like, you know, like
crip affiliated or something from like Staten Island, like punching
a hole in a window, and she would like get
(21:14):
in this fucking kid's face and like scream at them,
like she was like the real deal. And then her
husband was this guy Mike, who was my You also
get a signed a sponsor when you get there, like someone,
so you get to sign a buddy like which is
like an older kid, and then a staff member who's
like a sponsor.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Just like a normal AA sponsor, like.
Speaker 7 (21:35):
You know, according to you know, in their own weird
AA yeah.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
Yeah, because they're just like a on steroids at this plant.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
And and he was mine and I really loved him,
like I I actually like he was like very much
like kind of like became someone who was really close
to me in my life. And then years later, you know,
I guess I have to say allegedly, I don't know,
but like my best friend from that place, who was
like total like totally like a brother, like we were
(22:05):
very very close, like you know, probably like ten years
or so after we got out, he like told me
that this guy Mike had been like sexually abusing him
the whole time there, along with like the priests I
was there, so like and actually weirdly at that or
(22:26):
maybe not weirdly, but at that Cole east Ridge, a
lot of I think what had caused that place to
kind of fall apart was because there were a bunch
of like the guy that started Tom, I think his
son was like a big sexual abuser. One of the
guys that went and worked at the family school impregnated
(22:47):
like an underage woman. Oh no, his son stayed at
east Ridge and was like sexually abusing a lot of
the kids there.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So yeah, So was that a widespread thing that was happening.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I don't know. I never.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
I never, Like that wasn't my experience and I never.
Definitely didn't know about it when I was there. Also
didn't know about it for a long time till after
I left, and my friend was the first one to
tell me about it, and he had mentioned a few
other kids that had went there that he knew was
also being sexually abused.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I mean, generally, when there's one kid, it's generally not
one kid.
Speaker 7 (23:26):
I'm sure, Yeah, I just don't know how many like
staff members were to be doing it.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Right, So I'm curious, like, as you were there and
having a really shitty time, were you communicating with your
parents at all about what was going on?
Speaker 7 (23:46):
Not really, So, like the first month you're there, you
can't talk to your family. I think that's kind of
to give you time to kind of realize, like, hey,
this is how this shit goes here, you know, Like,
because I think if you were there like a week,
you'd probably get on the phone and be like, hey,
this is really fucked up, Like well, you know, and
so I think it's like for you to kind of
(24:06):
get the message and then and then they have somebody
listening to your calls, you know, and so like if
you it wouldn't be like one of those things where
like if I got on the phone and I was like, hey, mom,
like you know, this place is way worse than you thought.
They're doing X, Y and Z or whatever, that they
would just like click, hang it up. But it would
be like, all right, tomorrow, you're getting up at the
(24:27):
table for a table topic and they're gonna fucking like
go off on you. And then of course they're going
to tell your parents, Like you know, this is part
of the process for an addict. They're you know, a
manipulator and you know, like he's just not liking that
he's not getting what he wants or whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
Oh, it's just a perfect system.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
There's like a network of troubled team I say in
quotes programs that were super super abusive. There was a
talk about it recently and I'm blinking on the name,
but they were saying that like their programs would essentially
tell their pa parents in advance that their kids were
gonna lie to them, yeah, and like prime the parents
to not believe anything the kids say anyway for sure,
(25:08):
and so like it really just yeah, like what option
do you have.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
It's like a.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Person who's in an institution being like I'm not crazy,
I'm not supposed to be here.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Like it's like them finding out a government conspiracy that's
true and trying to tell people yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (25:22):
And even when the parents go and like get a
tour or whatever, which most parents do before they send
their kids there, it's like they have two kids that
are like about to leave, that are doing really well,
that are giving the tour, and then when they put
them in the family for lunch to see how table
topics work, like they're only they're going to be like, okay,
(25:44):
like this family, it would be a good table topic
for the parents to see because it'd be something like
more constructive and less like we're going to fucking like
rip you in front of everybody. Like you know, I've
definitely seen them be like all right, we're gonna deal
with this serious one tomorrow when like you know, there's
not a tour happening.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
You know, did you get like called out much or
because you kept such a low profile table topic.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Oh, I was definitely everybody. There's no escaping table topics.
But yeah, I mean usually most of what I would
get in trouble for was being like flying on They
would say, flying under the radar.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
They said, there's no winning, there's no winning.
Speaker 7 (26:27):
And also I would say, like the two things that
they kind of like really hounded me about was flying
under the radar, and then that woman Robin who was
like that scary tough lizard woman would like get me
up there and say and like just like fucking like
ream me out and just yell at me and say
(26:50):
that I am the king of self pity. Wow. Yeah,
So yeah, self pity was something that they would hound
me about. I mean, and hindsight, I realized, like it's depression, right.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
You know, did it fuck with your sense of self
at all? Like did they get in your head for real?
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Totally?
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I mean I think at that age, or at least
for me, I didn't. The idea of like sense of
self wasn't something I like, you know, I questioned.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Or thought about. But in hindsight for sure, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, I mean I have to imagine if people are
just telling you you're bad all day. Yeah, and the
whole program sort of centered around punishment and never being
good enough.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Like that's got a oh totally, especially.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
For young young minds who are we're already struggling before
coming here.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
The whole thing has like Stockholm syndrome built into the
DNA where you leave it or like I guess I
was bad and like that place might have kind of
helped me.
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Like yeah, I mean after I left there, I stayed
sober for like ten years or something, and then I
ended up relapsing. And I think a big part of
that was, like they like in total, I think I
was sober like twelve years or something and I ended
up relapsing Cuz you know, like my life was really
(28:12):
good and you know, I was like twelve years sober
and like you know, went back to grad school when
I like was a high school dropout and you know,
had friends and was in this like six year relationship.
You know, like in a lot of ways, like I
think people would objectively look in my life and be like, no,
you're like, you know, I don't know successful quote unquote,
(28:33):
but I just mean, like.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
You are a you know functioning member.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
Yeah, you're a functioning person who's like trying to be
a good person and doing you know, good shit, and
like no matter what, I like just fucking hated myself.
And I think it was like it got to the
point where I was like, I just can't stay sober
any longer if like, you know, all of these areas
of my life get better, but I just like continue
(28:58):
to hate myself. Know, like it was it was just
like no matter what, it wasn't good enough in my head.
I mean like no matter what it wasn't good enough,
I was always a fuck up.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
It was you know.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
It's just and I think almost, if not all of
that came from that place, you know, like that school.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, it's like you can technically isolate kids from their
drugs or alcohol of choice and like technically control their
behavior so it stops. But it's like what's the word
term when you stop drinking, but you don't have a
community around it.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, it's like if you're not actually providing them tools
and you're just like making them feel bad.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
All the just punishments that are connecting you to any yeah,
true sense of self.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, it's like you could tech you could point at
that and be like, all these kids got sober, It's like,
well they didn't really have a choice. Yeah, and then
once they were out, they were left on their own
with like suddenly a constant sense of no like no
self worth basically.
Speaker 7 (30:00):
Yeah, and everything was like a punishment. Like it was
like if I did something quote unquote wrong or whatever,
even if the world didn't punish me or like the
constant there weren't like consequences, like I would be punishing me,
you know. So yeah, and that was like I think
all from that place, you know, Like I mean I
(30:21):
would say, like in hindsight, like my parents are two
good people. They were never like abusive or anything. They
might not have been the best parents in terms of
like parenting or like having a relationship with me, but
I definitely didn't come from like an abusive background before this,
you know.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Right, Yeah, that just constant. I mean we see it
in so many cults and so many religions all the time,
Like when your whole worldview is centered around what you're
doing wrong. Yeah, like that is just not going to
not have an impact on adults, On fully formed adults
with fully formed identities and thriving lives like over time.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It's just like yeah, bucks, you up.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
And one other thing that I forgot to mention, like that,
have you guys heard of synan On?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yes, I was going to mention sin On because I
think that's what I was actually thinking of when I said.
Speaker 7 (31:11):
Like a lot of these boarding schools mine included, like
the methods were pretty much taken from Synanon in terms
of like you know, like the reprimanding and the group
humiliation and all of that stuff. Like that's very like
Synanon total tactic.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
It's a classic cult tactic.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I mean like public humiliation in front of the group
and having like never being good enough and yeah, like
all of these things are.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Pretty pretty and it works perfectly. It does.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
The fucking craziest part, Yeah, it really is just a
perfect system of control.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You want to.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Believe that you're immune to that.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
You know that you get in there and you'd be
like you'd have the mental fortitude to like withstand it,
but like we fucking don't. Like we're just animal with
their stupid animal brains, and if we people take advantage
of them, they can.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
I love when people say like, oh I can never
get like sucked into a cult, and it's like you
really don't know. And also I think for a lot
of adults it's probably like timing in terms of like
what is going on in their lives and where they
are emotionally and maybe where they're not or whatever. But
like as a child, it's like, oh, you're fucking getting
(32:28):
sucked in no matter what, you know what I mean,
even if you don't believe it, like exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's how like in my cult, I didn't believe it,
but I was in it. Yeah, I still hated myself
through the lives of it, even though I was like
this is dumb. Yeah, it's just like a very odd Yeah,
you can resist the boarding school but still.
Speaker 6 (32:46):
Have to be entrenched in the belief system somehow.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
It's so weird for sure.
Speaker 7 (32:51):
Yeah, even like you know, I'm not trying to say
like all religions bad or something, but even like I
remember I had a you know, a girlfriend friend who
grew up Catholic or whatever, and I think, you know,
one time she was we were having like a conversation
and she was like, you know, like deep down I.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Do feel bad about like there are some.
Speaker 7 (33:12):
Negative emotions about having like sex outside of marriage, even
though she wasn't religious at all, like didn't believe in it.
Oh whatever, Sure, it's just like that ingrain thing.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Yeah that was me post Mormonism.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah yeah, I like even though Mormons don't believe in hell,
they literally have a different belief system. It's like you
just go to the lower tier of heaven or whatever,
but you don't get to chill with your family in heaven.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
So I don't want to true.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
But I still for some reason when I had sex,
was like I'm going to Hell, Like that was where
my head went because it's such a horrible sin in Mormonism,
and for years I had such awful bagage aroundite.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
Lola is still soaking? Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, and I'm doing it right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I don't know when we should jump to this part,
but I want to hear about the.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Day you like leave, what that feels like. Are we
ready for that?
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Oh man, that was like the greatest day of my life.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
Yeah, graduated, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
I feel like, what did it?
Speaker 7 (34:26):
The first day felt amazing. It's it's actually weird because
it's hard for me to really remember the first day.
The first day is kind of what you'd say, it's
like there's a graduation ceremony because you're also graduating from
high school and then you go out to lunch and
all this stuff. And my best friend from there that
(34:47):
I told you about, he had to stay for another
six months, so you know, like I felt bad for
him and that was sad saying goodbye. And then it
ended up being that he had a home. Is it
timed for when I was graduating? So we both like
left campus that same day together and he actually never
went back.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
WHOA, But uh, you're like rolling out of the threshold
of that place, Like is it just like scary or.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Is it first?
Speaker 7 (35:18):
It's just like except like there are so many things
that they deem negative there that you can't talk about.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
So all rap music is negative? Oh sorry?
Speaker 7 (35:29):
Like literally, like there was no rapper reggae that you
could listen.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
To except it's like pot culture or something.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
But the only thing that wasn't negative was modest Y
Who because he was white reggae. But yeah, there was
no like rapper reggae. There was no like R rated movies,
and you couldn't even say like you could not say
the name Snoop Dogg for example.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
You couldn't say the names. What would happen if you said.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
They'd be like that's negative. You have to stop saying that, Like.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
He's going to appear in the mirror behind.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
It was literally like so yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:09):
That was another thing too, is like by the time
you leave, like culturally, you don't know what's going on,
Like there is a like you leave and you try
to interact with people, Like I remember I left and
I came back to LA for a visit, like you know,
like to visit home. I mean before I was going
to like go to college and in New York City
(36:30):
and I was hanging out with a friend and he
put on Lil Wayne's The Carter Too, and I was
like what is this? And he was like what are
you talking about? And I was like, I've never heard
this before, like this is good, and he's like this
is Lil Wayne, dude, like this is the biggest album
in the world. And I was like I didn't, I've
never heard of that. But that was like every that
(36:51):
was like culturally kind of everything.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Did you have internet there with like.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
A shitloader really just to like do some schoolwork, like
you couldn't like go on ship, right, So yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
You're just like dropped back in the world of rap, porn,
the news, everything fresh, freedom, wild.
Speaker 8 (37:12):
Oh.
Speaker 7 (37:12):
I just like the first night I like after I left,
I was like in New York City and I just
like walked around by myself and I was like, it
felt like I was like in a dream or something.
And then the first the thing that I remember clearly though,
is the next day I woke up and I felt
really sad that I didn't like wake up in the
(37:34):
dorm with all of the people, like all my friends social. Yeah,
like I felt I felt very alone, very quickly.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Right damn yeah.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
Wow, Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I mean, I know you kind of already told us
it took you a few years to unpack what had happened.
How have you processed it over time? What's your sense
of it now?
Speaker 7 (37:59):
Well, I think first there was no questioning of it,
Like I think I didn't know to question it, and
I did probably would have been like too overwhelming. I
also like had no fucking clue how to like I could,
Like I said, when I left, I continue to stay
sober for a while, and being an AA was helpful
(38:19):
because it was very different than that. But at least
there was somewhat of like a common language, like, but
I had no idea how to interact with like people
my age that were like, you know, quote unquote normal
people like I. When I went to college immediately after
and at the school I went to for the first
(38:40):
six months, they you kind of like it's like group
block scheduling and what the the what they try to
do is kind of keep you in the same classes
with the same like twenty freshmen so that you can
kind of build a network of friends or whatever. And
they would all hang out with each other and I
literally like, I don't think. I don't think I said
word to them the whole time. And then I remember
(39:02):
right before spring break, I was going into a class
and they were all leaving and they were like, hey,
we're not going to go to class, Like, why don't
you come hang out with us in Central Park? And
I was like, all right, I guess I probably should
do that. And I got there and I like legitimately
like I was like I don't know what to say
to these people. And I like texted my AA sponsor
(39:23):
and I was like, Hey, can you call me in
two minutes? And he called me, and I was so
far like the idea that I even was pretending to
have a girlfriend was laughable, like my girlfriend, yeah, and
he was like this like forty year old gay dude.
And I was like, I answer the phone. I was like, oh,
hey baby, Oh you're down the street. Yeah, no, I'll
be there in a second. I was like, sorry, guys,
(39:44):
my girlfriend's call. And then yeah, and then I don't know.
I I my first girlfriend when I left was a
girl that was there with me. Yeah, and U and then.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (40:01):
And then I started to like actually like have some
interests in undergrad and so I started to meet people
that way. And then my girlfriend, like my long term
like six year relationship, like she wasn't sober when we
started dating, and so like that was kind of the
first time where I was really kind of building relationships
(40:23):
with people that like weren't sober or like hadn't gone
to that school. And mind you, this like three years
after I left, and then it kind of started from there.
And then like right after we started dating, I like
started therapy, which I'd always been like very against therapy,
and that was like a very long process. Like I
(40:44):
still see that therapist now like once a month, like
for check ins and if you were to ask her
like legitimately, like I think almost nothing changed.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
For like eight years.
Speaker 7 (40:56):
Like we would see each other once a week, and
I would just sit there and say almost nothing and
she and at some point in the session, I'd like
break down crying and she wouldn't really know why. I mean,
she'd know why, but it wouldn't be like and I'm
feeling this and that, Like I couldn't even communicate how
I was feeling.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Whoa Like.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
And then and then my ex broke up with me,
and she was like I can't really do this anymore
because I you know, we'd been we'd been in a
relationship six years, and I don't think I once.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
Said I feel dot dot dot Like I.
Speaker 7 (41:36):
Was like so emotionally shut down. Yeah, and then when
she broke up with me, that kind of was like
the beginning of the helpful unraveling. Like I relapsed, and
you know, I was a fucking mess for like two
or three years or whatever, But it was really the
beginning of like, oh, I this is going to like
(41:56):
this is going to be my life till I die
unless I like do something about it.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Whoa Yeah, Yeah, it's like your body knew that there
was a lot of trauma, but your mind didn't know
how to express it.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
And that's yeah, that's so sad.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
I'm glad that you broke through after all that time
about that.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
But also you said something so interesting that I don't
want to forget, which is when you like genuinely became
interested in something, is when you kind of started making friends.
And I always say that in the X two by
two group because people are like, I don't.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
Know how to make friends.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I don't know, and I'm just I think classes, even
as an adult, of something you're genuinely passionate about, is
like the way to make friends.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
After all, it's a great tip.
Speaker 7 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think also I like luked out, which
is that, like the thing that I was interested in
is by nature like fully collaborative, so like that is
not like doing it by myself.
Speaker 5 (42:52):
Right, he's referring to filmmaking.
Speaker 7 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah, everybody, that's true.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I'm curious because now obviously we know so much more
about how many people left his program and went on
to die.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
What do you attribute that to?
Speaker 7 (43:12):
Well, I think, for I think most kids that got
sent there, probably like ninety eight percent had some sort
of like legitimate problems you know, like I don't know
that everybody was like an alcoholic or drug addict, Like
some of them might have just been like mental health stuff,
you know, Like I think it was a variety of things.
(43:33):
But I think that the majority of kids there, either
before they got there or after they left, like ended
up becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. And I think because
the school like tried to use AA as like a
punishment tool, which is like very different than what AA
(43:54):
or like my experience of AA has actually been. I
think a lot of them had just this thing that
they couldn't get past. And I don't think A is
like the only way for like a drug addict or
an alcoholic to you know, like change or you know,
overcome their addiction or something. But I do think it's
(44:15):
probably the easiest way, Like you know, it's you know,
there's just like a program of action that you do
and it's pretty simple, Like it's probably not easy, but
it's like pretty simple, and you have like a community
of people to help you through it or whatever. And
they a lot of them like couldn't get their foot
in the door because they just couldn't see it as
(44:37):
something separate from that place, and then I think for
a lot of people just even you know, like I
have a lot of friends that you know, did go
to AA or were sober for a while, who you
know psychologically, It just was a lot, And one of
which was my friend who was sober for like a
(44:59):
number of years and then started and he was like
a pretty bad junkie and ended up getting sober, and
we knew each other from this school, and he ended
up getting sober again after kind of like a longer
about with like heroin and was sober for a number
of years and then he started like microdosing like THHC
(45:19):
and really getting into that, but like wasn't drinking or
doing harder drugs or anything, and like was trying to
write a book on this place and like fully went
crazy and like killed himself. I mean I think he
had I think he had other mental health stuff that
was unlocked from, like cause I know a lot of
(45:41):
people that are like predisposed to, you know, to like
mental health disorders like can have that you know, kind
of like exaggerated by using like THHC. But yeah, he
like fully went off the rails. And it was really
like it was really dark and it was really scary,
(46:02):
and it was during the pandemic, so you know, everybody
was really isolated. But it was also like when the
whole like George Floyd protests were happening, so we like weirdly,
you know, and people started to kind of leave their houses,
so like we were seeing him kind of often. And
then he just kind of started like not making He'd
send us like nonsensical texts or whatever, and he just
(46:25):
like manically would talk about how he's like writing this
book about this place or whatever.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
But yeah, he like killed.
Speaker 7 (46:33):
Himself and he had like a deep level of like
self hatred and like a deep like contempt for like
any sort of like spirituality in aa like totally from
that place, and like he ended up stabbing himself.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
It was really it was really dark.
Speaker 7 (46:51):
Sorry, I mean yeah, but but I think I think,
you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
That place took a lot of tools that probably would.
Speaker 7 (47:00):
Help people through things like this and just like twisted
them into these like you know, bludgeoning tools rather than
tools of help or whatever.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Well, and and trauma can increase the risk of addiction
and uh, you know, mental health struggles as it is,
so if someone's already coming in with that and then
they're being rolled into a carpet in a room, you know,
like that's yeah. The New York Times article if anyone's
interested talks about how you know, there were there'd be
(47:31):
people who would like testify and be speaking out against
how much it messed up them and their friends, and
then that person later would kill themselves, Like yeah, it
really it was a real yeah, real dark place, and
I am sorry that you experienced that, thank you, but
I'm glad you're doing better. And are you in a
(47:52):
healthy relationship now?
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (47:54):
I am in a healthy relationship now. Although my girlfriend
and i'd just gotten a fight the other day and
I was just like not, I like shut down for
a second. She's like, what what's wrong? And I was
like talking, it's just so gross. So yeah, you know,
for the most part, but there are moments where I,
(48:16):
you know, fall short. But yeah, yeah, for sure, I
mean the last like since like coming back from that relapse,
like honestly like, yeah, my life's like the best it's
ever been for sure.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah amazing, And you definitely like you still do aa
yeah and I do as well. So yeah, so yeah,
I mean it is.
Speaker 6 (48:37):
An important program that I strongly encourage anyone to utilize
if they want to. It does have that confusing aspect
where it can be culty.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
But it doesn't have to be for sure.
Speaker 6 (48:47):
Yeah you know, so yeah.
Speaker 7 (48:50):
I think like in any group, like you find people
like I think I just got better at going to
AA and being like I want to be around that person.
I don't want to be around that person because like
the first like the first sponsor I really gravitated to
was like super controlling, and it felt really comfortable because
(49:11):
it was like an extension of that place and in
a really like inappropriate way, like inappropriate even like in the.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Realm of AA.
Speaker 7 (49:20):
Like I think if you were to tell most people
the way he like quote unquote sponsored, they'd be like
that's fucked up, Like that's crazy. But that was like
what I knew, that was like what I gravitated towards.
And now I'm just like very clear on like what
works for me, what I want, Like I don't like
I'm pretty comfortable with who I am to the extent
(49:43):
that i'd be like I'm not fucking doing that.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah yeah, yeah, j any words of wisdom for our listeners.
Speaker 7 (49:51):
No pressure words of wisdom.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
I don't know if this words of wisdom.
Speaker 7 (49:57):
But I think just like in high insight, I would say,
there's nothing in my life that I look back on
and I'm like, wow, I really wish that didn't happen
to me. Like ultimately, you know, all of these things
that we experience, you know, have like ultimately led to
(50:18):
like being beneficial. You know, it took a long time,
and it took a lot of like you know, there
was a lot of like progress and then regression and
all of that stuff. But like in hindsight, I definitely
am weirdly kind of quite grateful for all of it.
Speaker 6 (50:35):
And that's called resilience. And you should listen to.
Speaker 9 (50:39):
And post Traumatic Grow post Traumatic Crowd, which we also
have an episode on.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I mean not Amen, yay, amen, Amen.
Speaker 6 (50:51):
Thank you so much for being a guest. This is
such a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 5 (50:55):
Yeah, thank you, Yoni.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (50:58):
And that's the end of you. No, oh my goodness,
that's the end of Yonie.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's the end of Yanie's interview. Continue forever, Ayoni, continue forever.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Amen.
Speaker 5 (51:13):
Yeah, I'm I'm really glad he came on.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
We didn't really talk about it in the interview, but
there are like strange connections to people that we know,
like it all kind of intersects with Yoni and this
particular program.
Speaker 6 (51:27):
Yeah, do you have what a final thoughts?
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (51:31):
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, I want to land on something you planted out earlier,
which was that, well you say it okay about the recruitment.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Yeah, I guess one thing that I think is sort
of an interesting takeaway maybe or maybe not interesting at
all we'll see about this episode is that you know,
there there is As we know, many cults recruit from
vulnerable populations, which could mean a variety of things, but
groups like sen and on scientology recovery programs like this
(52:05):
I say programs or recovery in air quotes are recruiting
from a very particular vulnerable population, which is those who
are struggling with substance use disorders. And I mean, you know,
as we know, like really anything, cults will really find
anything to latch onto that might make you feel like
(52:26):
you need help or like you need community or something.
But that's just a particularly insidious one, I feel like,
because that population is so in need of help, and yeah,
they're so they're so vulnerable, they need legitimate treatment, they
need evidence based treatment and support, and you know, groups
(52:46):
like that will sort of masquerade as being support and
then actually be causing more harm in the end than.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
Than Absolutely, it's such a good point, and I wish
there was a better solution built into society.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
We should we shouldn't do that, guys.
Speaker 5 (53:03):
I think about this all the time. I mean, this
is sort of a tangent, so ignore me.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
But like, there's there's a group called you know, I
became interested in this because of my brother's ventanyl overdose.
If anyone doesn't know, my brother overdosed on fentanyl and
he has he has a brain injury now as a result,
and is no longer able to live independently and in like,
(53:27):
you know, like learning about that whole world because he
was trying to get into treatment when he overdosed and
his insurance didn't cover it whatever, whatever, it was awful.
There's an organization called shatter Proof that is working to
have there be standardized evidence based care across rehabs in
the country, because right now there's no standardized care. So
(53:47):
people can just buy a place and be like yeah,
we got yeah horse therapy, and that's literally all they do,
and then they're sending people in their merry way having
spent thirty thousand dollars, you know, like it's we talked
about it before, is something I'm passionate about.
Speaker 5 (54:02):
So anyway, there are groups that are working to standardize that. Karen,
I think it's so so so so so so so
so important.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Personally, absolutely, And you know, there's always that vulnerable population
of people who were in cults from birth are joined
one and then they get into substance abuse issues because
of the trauma.
Speaker 6 (54:22):
It's just such a delicate web.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
So yeah, if you are struggling with the substance use disorder,
please seek treatment twelve step programs. There are lots of
resources availables. Our producer Steve will drop.
Speaker 5 (54:36):
Them into the show notes.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
And yeah, and I hope you are all going easy
on yourselves this holiday season.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Absolutely, thank you so much for spending another week with us.
We can't wait to see you again next week. And
as always, remember.
Speaker 6 (54:54):
To follow your gut, watch out for red.
Speaker 5 (54:56):
Flags, and never ever trust me.
Speaker 6 (55:00):
Ye trust Me.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator,
with special thanks to Stacy Para and her theme song
was composed by Holly Amber Church. You can find us
on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me
Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
Hey, everybody, this is producer Steve And in the event
that you're still looking for some holiday gifts right now,
well La, Megan and I encourage you to go check
out the episode description where there are some pretty amazing
sponsors deals. These are products and services that we feel
serve your wants and desires. Oh and maybe you want
some trust Me merchandise. The Bitley link is also right
there for you, maybe for yourself, somebody you know, somebody
(00:21):
else's a big fan of the podcast, so go check
it out. We would really appreciate it, and from all
of us here on the show, thank you week in
and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
If you have your own story of being in a
cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
four seven eight six trust.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
Yeah, I've never lied to you.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
If you think that one person has all the answers,
Don't Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme
belief and manipulation from two Wilderness girls who've actually experienced it.
I'm Lo La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today
is part two of our interview with friend of the show,
Yonie Shreira. He's a former student at the Family Foundation's School,
also known as alan Wood, and as a reminder, this
(01:23):
was a remote, troubled teen program known for a series
of lawsuits brought against it, as well as over a
hundred deaths from overdose or suicide by its former attendees.
Last week we talked about how and why Yoni ended
up in this abusive school and the culture there of
required snitching. And this week he's going to tell us
about the punishments the kids endured, including hard labor and isolation.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
He'll tell us about trying to run away, the origins
of the group and the man who created it, how
the kids were kept isolated from their families, the way
it impacted him after he left, and why he thinks
so many of its former students have died.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's super sad, and we talk about this in the interviews,
so I won't get too into it. But you know,
it's already such a vulnerable population teenagers in the first place,
and then people who are struggling with addiction, and then
when you put those things together and then you add abuse,
it's just it's a perfect really really awesome, really really
awful recipe.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
I thought you're just say awesome.
Speaker 5 (02:17):
I know my tongue slived, my tongueless like us.
Speaker 4 (02:21):
Correct, you need to quit.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Awful.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
It's awful. It's a perfect storm.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yes, No, it's freaking horrible and really really sad, and
you will hear more about it shortly and before we
get back into it with Yoni.
Speaker 5 (02:38):
Megan, do you have a coldiest thing this week? I do.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Mine is related to the group that I grew up in,
the two by twos. It's been a pretty heavily media
covered case I just saw shared on ABC. One of
the like on and off elders in the church has
been sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in jail
for distributing images of children. And he has some money.
(03:03):
He hired a really good defense lawyer. You know, there
was some seats of doubt planted, but ultimately he was
found guilty, which is pretty hard to do.
Speaker 6 (03:12):
You know, I haven't.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
This case isn't something that I've been following, per se
or know every detail about, but it did just bring
to light a bigger issue to me, which is like
this kind of built in defense that a lot of
these high control groups have built in, which is that
they say, we're going to be persecuted, right, so already
(03:37):
there's this defense of like unconsciously in people's mind like
oh here it's happening. The persecution is beginning, Like here's
this wonrateful. It's Mams, he's innocent.
Speaker 6 (03:50):
And it's just been really odd to watch.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Are people like doubling down?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Kind of yeah, people double down, people are getting you know,
the people who are left in their beliefs who I
thought were maybe getting a little bit more free kind
of seem like that's gone away. And like, growing up,
I was always taught you're in this one true way
people are gonna persecute you, and like to no one.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
Gave a shit.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
No one was like like people sometimes were like why
are you guys dressed like that?
Speaker 4 (04:19):
But no one was like stop it. Stop having these meetings.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Of truth, Like no one cares about a home based
Bible group. And my personal opinion, people are like go
off queens, like do.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
What you want.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
But as like these systems of abuse start to be revealed,
people are obviously going to start persecuting you because it's
a felony and you should go to jail.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
So it's just prosecuting you one night, prosecuting you, one
might say.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
So the cognitive dissonance for people is really high. I
totally get it. It is for me as well. It's
just all bizarre. This group that has been so secret
for so long. Just seeing it in headlines is so bizarre, jarring.
It's very uncanny. I don't know how to explain it.
So that's my thought of the week. And just you know,
(05:12):
I can kind of see playing out in news stages too,
and it's.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
A whole thing.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
But anyway, that's all I'm going to say today.
Speaker 6 (05:19):
Lola, that's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Kind of similar, well different, different, but similar in that, Uh, are.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
You going to jail for one hundred and twenty years?
Speaker 7 (05:29):
No?
Speaker 5 (05:30):
But someone is no, he's going to jail for fifty years.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
So the person who's going to jail for anyone who
has been following is Sam Bateman and Sam Bateman is
in jail now because of my mother who went undercover
Shadows see doctor Christine. She went on undercover to gather
evidence to put him behind bars because he was not
only doing the traditional, you know, fundamentalist abusive thing of
(05:56):
taking child brides, but he was doing even more horrendous
things like in between you know, uh, I don't.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I don't even like getting into the details. I think
it's too like it'slacious, so horrible. The point is he sucks.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
He's a horrible person, and he he sucks.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Is a little bit of an understatement.
Speaker 8 (06:12):
Well yeah, I mean yes, but he really really sucks.
And I'm actually shocked that he gets fifty I don't
know the specifics of the charges, but it's shocking that
he gets fifty years for like these actual, like horrific
acts that he committed against many people and families, whereas
(06:33):
the two by two guy gets triple that for you know,
like that's so interesting, Actually it is interesting. But anyway,
my mom was at the trial, just everybody's over the
moon that this guy's finally like officially behind bars until
he dies unless he lives to age one hundred and Yeah,
it's just an amazing ending to this like pretty scary story.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
We'll talk more about it, but if anyone wants to
read about it, there is a like Tribune article that
gets into all of the details of how and why
they first started recording him, how it took a long
time to get authorities involved, et cetera. And the headline
is a Utah couple that's my mom and my stepdad
infiltrated a new polygamous sect and helped put its abusive
leader behind bars.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
So you can go.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Read all about that. My mom rules, and she is
the ultimate testament to you know, this idea that we
talk about all the time, which is that befriending people
can be significantly more effective in getting them out of
groups than attacking them.
Speaker 5 (07:35):
We'll talk about it.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
I'm just such a beautiful example of somebody surviving being
in a horrific cult.
Speaker 6 (07:41):
She's an angel.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah, and she used that experience to help other people
by sharing her story with them.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
It's called yeah yeah, and she's going to be a
guest I think soon, right to talk about all this?
Speaker 6 (07:54):
Yes, okay, beautiful, Well should we talk to Yannie.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Can you tell us a little bit about some of
the punishments that people experienced.
Speaker 7 (08:12):
Yeah, So, like I said, there was like the work
sanction thing if they felt like you were a danger
to yourself or others, which like definitely is quite subjective.
You know, like they would put you in this room
called like ISO, where like it was like this like
six by six, Like I mean, it was like a cell.
It was like you know, like a steel door with
(08:34):
like three bolt locks on it, and there's like a
camera in the corner and there's like nothing in there,
and they'd take like your belt and shoelaces and stuff.
Speaker 6 (08:42):
Did you ever go on there?
Speaker 7 (08:43):
I only went in there once. I kind of did
a pretty good job of like I mean, I definitely
got into trouble there. Like I said, I was like
on those work sanctions and stuff, but you it actually
was usually more in line with like, hey, you're not
quote unquote buying into our program because you know, you're
not like helling on people or something. But it wasn't
like I had very few instances where I was like
(09:05):
punching windows or like you know, doing like outward you know,
like violent shit or anything.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I have to imagine for many of the kids who
came there that had sort of already been their pattern,
like acting out, yeah, in more outward ways, and I'm
guessing those kids experienced a lot more of.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
That for sure. Yeah, there were, Yeah, there were a
lot of kids.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
And also, like I would say, I was there in
an era where it was still they were still doing
like pretty fucked up shit, but it was also at
an era where it was like transitioning into trying to
kind of like they were trying to get some certain.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Like specific like state accreditation.
Speaker 7 (09:45):
And so I remember there were like a few times
while I was there where there'd be like people from
the state who would come and tour it, and they
would be like, all right, everybody, be on your best behavior,
like this person from whatever fucking organ like Department of
Education is coming. And so they they kind of slowly
started to change their approach to certain things where actually
(10:06):
and I, I uh, at some point years later, kind
of did a lot of research like on the place,
and I found these letters that the state had written
back to the school kind of giving their critique of
you know, what needed to be changed in order to
get this accreditation. So anyway, some of the like tactics
(10:28):
that they use changed, and that was kind of like
just after my time. But there were some things that
were like way more over and fucked up before I
got there, Like before they had the isolation room, they
would like roll you up in a carpet and like
duct tape it so you couldn't move, like and just
like kind of like leave you in this like closet area.
Not like I mean, this doesn't mean it's good, but
(10:50):
like not like dark closet you know, with clothes hanging,
but just like this like storage room, right, you know.
Christ And then the corner was a big one where
like they would put you in the corner, which meant
that you just had to if if it kind of
like the first step of that is you would sit
in a chair and face the corner for like all
(11:11):
of your meals or all of your activity time, and
then during class you would sit and face the regular
way just to like do class stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (11:21):
And then if you got into more trouble, then you'd
have to do like standing face the corner where you
like would have to just stand and face the corner,
and then in class you wouldn't face the corner, but
you would still stand and yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Stuff like that.
Speaker 7 (11:37):
If they if they thought you were like a potential
like runaway risk, they would you know, put you on.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Flip flops, or if they thought that you were.
Speaker 7 (11:46):
Like flirting a lot or trying to get attention from
like whatever sex you were attracted to, they would put
you on poverty where you had to like wear sweatpants.
And sometimes they'd make you like wear a sign that
said like I'm a slutty little flirt or something.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
I mean that at a slutty little flirt.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
It's hot.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
Yeah, they'd be like, all right, let everybody see your dick. Bulls.
Speaker 6 (12:12):
What was the like sleeping arrangements, Like.
Speaker 7 (12:15):
So each family had uh, you know, boys and girls,
but obviously for sleeping arrangements it.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
Was like separated. Yeah, so you were.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
In a dorm with guys and it was like bunk
beds and uh yeah.
Speaker 8 (12:34):
Oh.
Speaker 7 (12:34):
And also if they thought you were a runaway, they'd
put you on something called landlock, where they like put
two bunk beds together against the wall, so you had
someone like sleeping right next to you and then like
right above you, so you like couldn't get out without
someone noticing.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
And the property was like in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 7 (12:51):
Oh yeah, middle of nowhere like the closest town and
this is like a shit whole town. Like this town
was fucking like oh man, it was like a shithole town.
Was like that town was like seven miles away.
Speaker 6 (13:08):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (13:09):
Yeah, I read that someone did run away once.
Speaker 7 (13:12):
Oh people ran away, not all the time, but people
ran away definitely hardly ever during the winter, you know,
I think I.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Read the story about a story about someone running away
during the winter and razing to death.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
I tried to run away during the winter in the
like dumbest fucking way. I like put on I had
like a car heart jacket with like a hood and
a scarf. And if you there were a few people
there that were over eighteen, like by the end of
their stay. And so if you were over eighteen, unless
you're a court mandated there, you could technically leave whenever
you wanted, but usually you were like about to get
(13:47):
out anyways, and like you know, they might withhold your
like high school diploma if you like leave early or whatever.
So most of the eighteen year olds tend to stay
till till the end. And it was called like walking.
And one day during the winter, I like put on
the jacket and my scarf and like covered my face
and stuff and just pretended. I thought I was like
(14:07):
going to pretend I was like an eighteen year old
who was just walking. And then they obviously quickly realized
because they do like a million like roll calls that
like I was missing, So then they like went and
got me on the road.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
Shut damn, Yary.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
What made you decide to run away?
Speaker 7 (14:25):
I was like, there were like a few pretty dark
periods there, but like the first one in particular was
there when I had been like there like four or
five months and I was on work sanction, and I
think I was just like really depressed.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yeah, there was something weird with the food, right, was
that happening?
Speaker 6 (14:43):
When you were there?
Speaker 7 (14:44):
You had to eat everything that they gave you, and
the food was pretty gross. Oh and also if you
if you misbehave, they could put you on like alternative
meals where it'd be like like like like porridge in
the morning and then like soy burgers for like breakfasts
(15:05):
and lunch. And it was just like that. It was
very much just like just we need to put something
in your stomach, but you're not going to eat any
of the quote unquote good stuff, which was fucking disgusting anyway.
Speaker 5 (15:17):
And when you were on work sanction, how long would
that last for you?
Speaker 3 (15:20):
You'd basically just be like by yourself all day, doing
hard labor and not interacting with people.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
Like what was the worst part about it for you?
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (15:28):
That was like that was the the It was just
while like the ten hour school day was instead just
like work. And honestly, like I didn't hate the work part.
It was more just like you're not in school, so
like if you're on it for too long, Like there
were kids that had to stay like an extra six
(15:48):
months because they were they were on Yeah, they weren't graduating,
and a lot of parents were like, like, I, technically,
time wise, like should have only been there. I think
it was like nineteen months or something. No, no, twenty months,
But I ended up staying twenty six because I would
(16:08):
have got out in like halfway through senior year. And
my parents were like, oh, we don't want him going
to like a regular high school for six months, like
that's too like dangerous for him or whatever.
Speaker 5 (16:20):
Oh man, Yeah, was the education decent? Like the class
was okay fine?
Speaker 7 (16:26):
Yeah, Actually, like they had really high standards for education,
kind of like they just had high like grade standards,
so like if you didn't get a C, it was
actually an F there, so you would have to retake
the class.
Speaker 6 (16:40):
Damn.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Yeah, who started it? And what was the like mission statement?
Speaker 7 (16:45):
Yeah, so that's actually kind of where it gets into
the cultiest part. So the guy that started was this
guy or named Tony R. Giros. He was like a
New York guy who had a family. I don't think
he was a drug addict, if I remember correctly. I
think his wife was an alcoholic. And I think he
was like a pretty bad sex addict or just serial cheater.
(17:08):
I don't know if he was a sex addict, but
he was definitely unfaithful to his wife a lot and
might have had some gambling problems. And I think I
think it was like, we should try giving our marriage
another shot and leave New York. There's like too much
temptation here. And so they moved to upstate New York
with their kids and became religious. And I don't think
(17:31):
they were really doing like AA stuff. I think it
was more just they kind of became more religious and
left the city, and I think when they got up there,
they became even more religious. And then one of their
daughter's friends was having a hard time with addiction stuff,
and her parents kicked her out of their house and
they took her in, and then it kind of snowballed
(17:53):
into being like a few of their kid's friends had
that situation happened, and like after a certain period of time,
they were like, oh, I guess you know, we kind
of liked taking in these kids and like helping them
or whatever. And I think at that point it was
kind of like still like pretty altruistic or whatever, Like
they weren't making money off of it, and they owned
(18:16):
this piece of land that the school ended up getting
built on, but at that point it was kind of
just like a farm where kids would go and they
kind of all had chores and would sober up or whatever.
And then simultaneously they met these people at this like
commune in like a neighboring town, and they became friends
(18:36):
with them, and a lot of like their like ideals
kind of aligned. And anyways, that place was like a
full on cult. It was called East Ridge, and like
the history of that place is kind of crazy. So
one of the guys that started AA was this guy
Bill Wilson, and this guy was a sponsor of Bill
Wilson's Oh, and Bill Wilson, like AA and Bill Wilson
(18:59):
were very much like not into religion. And this guy
was like, there are two problems with AA.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
It's not religious enough.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
And the guy that started it is like fucking way
too many women. And so he left and started this
commune and started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
Loila's looking it up.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I feel like this sounds so familiar to me, but okay,
keep going.
Speaker 7 (19:24):
Yeah, he was like left and started this commune and
started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Not the car fucking right.
Speaker 7 (19:32):
He did not become rich, and it was like all
addicts anonymous, and his idea was like it should be
religious based, and every person is kind of like in
a Christian mindset, like every person is a sinner who needs,
you know whatever, some sort of program to make them better.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
So you're the founders of the school are coming into
contact with this with those deep tricks AA call kind
of merging it into something that soon gives birth to
where you ended up.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Yeah, and that colt actually like fractured at some point
over like a disagreement over some stuff, and like half
the people left and they needed jobs, and at that
time this school was starting, and so those people came
and worked at the school. So like my family leaders
were members of that cult prior together.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
Oh wow, And so what were they like, I mean, you.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
Know, it's weird.
Speaker 7 (20:29):
It's like, I mean, they were fucking tough. Most of
the family leaders were actually married in real life. They
were very much about like the you know, male female
family system. They were like fully like religious in that way.
But the woman was this woman named Robin, and she
was fucking terrifying. She like had boils all over her
face and she like literally looked like a lizard and
(20:53):
she a lizard, and she was like probably like four
feet eleven. But like this bitch was tough. Like she
was like so tough. Like she would like there'd be
like a kid who would be like, you know, like
crip affiliated or something from like Staten Island, like punching
a hole in a window, and she would like get
(21:14):
in this fucking kid's face and like scream at them,
like she was like the real deal. And then her
husband was this guy Mike, who was my You also
get a signed a sponsor when you get there, like someone,
so you get to sign a buddy like which is
like an older kid, and then a staff member who's
like a sponsor.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
Just like a normal AA sponsor, like.
Speaker 7 (21:35):
You know, according to you know, in their own weird
AA yeah.
Speaker 6 (21:38):
Yeah, because they're just like a on steroids at this plant.
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 7 (21:42):
And and he was mine and I really loved him,
like I I actually like he was like very much
like kind of like became someone who was really close
to me in my life. And then years later, you know,
I guess I have to say allegedly, I don't know,
but like my best friend from that place, who was
like total like totally like a brother, like we were
(22:05):
very very close, like you know, probably like ten years
or so after we got out, he like told me
that this guy Mike had been like sexually abusing him
the whole time there, along with like the priests I
was there, so like and actually weirdly at that or
(22:26):
maybe not weirdly, but at that Cole east Ridge, a
lot of I think what had caused that place to
kind of fall apart was because there were a bunch
of like the guy that started Tom, I think his
son was like a big sexual abuser. One of the
guys that went and worked at the family school impregnated
(22:47):
like an underage woman. Oh no, his son stayed at
east Ridge and was like sexually abusing a lot of
the kids there.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So yeah, So was that a widespread thing that was happening.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
I don't know. I never.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
I never, Like that wasn't my experience and I never.
Definitely didn't know about it when I was there. Also
didn't know about it for a long time till after
I left, and my friend was the first one to
tell me about it, and he had mentioned a few
other kids that had went there that he knew was
also being sexually abused.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
I mean, generally, when there's one kid, it's generally not
one kid.
Speaker 7 (23:26):
I'm sure, Yeah, I just don't know how many like
staff members were to be doing it.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Right, So I'm curious, like, as you were there and
having a really shitty time, were you communicating with your
parents at all about what was going on?
Speaker 7 (23:46):
Not really, So, like the first month you're there, you
can't talk to your family. I think that's kind of
to give you time to kind of realize, like, hey,
this is how this shit goes here, you know, Like,
because I think if you were there like a week,
you'd probably get on the phone and be like, hey,
this is really fucked up, Like well, you know, and
so I think it's like for you to kind of
(24:06):
get the message and then and then they have somebody
listening to your calls, you know, and so like if
you it wouldn't be like one of those things where
like if I got on the phone and I was like, hey, mom,
like you know, this place is way worse than you thought.
They're doing X, Y and Z or whatever, that they
would just like click, hang it up. But it would
be like, all right, tomorrow, you're getting up at the
(24:27):
table for a table topic and they're gonna fucking like
go off on you. And then of course they're going
to tell your parents, Like you know, this is part
of the process for an addict. They're you know, a
manipulator and you know, like he's just not liking that
he's not getting what he wants or whatever.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
You know.
Speaker 6 (24:45):
Oh, it's just a perfect system.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
There's like a network of troubled team I say in
quotes programs that were super super abusive. There was a
talk about it recently and I'm blinking on the name,
but they were saying that like their programs would essentially
tell their pa parents in advance that their kids were
gonna lie to them, yeah, and like prime the parents
to not believe anything the kids say anyway for sure,
(25:08):
and so like it really just yeah, like what option
do you have.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
It's like a.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Person who's in an institution being like I'm not crazy,
I'm not supposed to be here.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Like it's like them finding out a government conspiracy that's
true and trying to tell people yeah.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (25:22):
And even when the parents go and like get a
tour or whatever, which most parents do before they send
their kids there, it's like they have two kids that
are like about to leave, that are doing really well,
that are giving the tour, and then when they put
them in the family for lunch to see how table
topics work, like they're only they're going to be like, okay,
(25:44):
like this family, it would be a good table topic
for the parents to see because it'd be something like
more constructive and less like we're going to fucking like
rip you in front of everybody. Like you know, I've
definitely seen them be like all right, we're gonna deal
with this serious one tomorrow when like you know, there's
not a tour happening.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
You know, did you get like called out much or
because you kept such a low profile table topic.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Oh, I was definitely everybody. There's no escaping table topics.
But yeah, I mean usually most of what I would
get in trouble for was being like flying on They
would say, flying under the radar.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
They said, there's no winning, there's no winning.
Speaker 7 (26:27):
And also I would say, like the two things that
they kind of like really hounded me about was flying
under the radar, and then that woman Robin who was
like that scary tough lizard woman would like get me
up there and say and like just like fucking like
ream me out and just yell at me and say
(26:50):
that I am the king of self pity. Wow. Yeah,
So yeah, self pity was something that they would hound
me about. I mean, and hindsight, I realized, like it's depression, right.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
You know, did it fuck with your sense of self
at all? Like did they get in your head for real?
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Totally?
Speaker 5 (27:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (27:11):
I mean I think at that age, or at least
for me, I didn't. The idea of like sense of
self wasn't something I like, you know, I questioned.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Or thought about. But in hindsight for sure, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Yeah, I mean I have to imagine if people are
just telling you you're bad all day. Yeah, and the
whole program sort of centered around punishment and never being
good enough.
Speaker 5 (27:34):
Like that's got a oh totally, especially.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
For young young minds who are we're already struggling before
coming here.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
The whole thing has like Stockholm syndrome built into the
DNA where you leave it or like I guess I
was bad and like that place might have kind of
helped me.
Speaker 7 (27:50):
Like yeah, I mean after I left there, I stayed
sober for like ten years or something, and then I
ended up relapsing. And I think a big part of
that was, like they like in total, I think I
was sober like twelve years or something and I ended
up relapsing Cuz you know, like my life was really
(28:12):
good and you know, I was like twelve years sober
and like you know, went back to grad school when
I like was a high school dropout and you know,
had friends and was in this like six year relationship.
You know, like in a lot of ways, like I
think people would objectively look in my life and be like, no,
you're like, you know, I don't know successful quote unquote,
(28:33):
but I just mean, like.
Speaker 4 (28:34):
You are a you know functioning member.
Speaker 7 (28:36):
Yeah, you're a functioning person who's like trying to be
a good person and doing you know, good shit, and
like no matter what, I like just fucking hated myself.
And I think it was like it got to the
point where I was like, I just can't stay sober
any longer if like, you know, all of these areas
of my life get better, but I just like continue
(28:58):
to hate myself. Know, like it was it was just
like no matter what, it wasn't good enough in my head.
I mean like no matter what it wasn't good enough,
I was always a fuck up.
Speaker 4 (29:10):
It was you know.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
It's just and I think almost, if not all of
that came from that place, you know, like that school.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, it's like you can technically isolate kids from their
drugs or alcohol of choice and like technically control their
behavior so it stops. But it's like what's the word
term when you stop drinking, but you don't have a
community around it.
Speaker 4 (29:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, it's like if you're not actually providing them tools
and you're just like making them feel bad.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
All the just punishments that are connecting you to any yeah,
true sense of self.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Yeah, it's like you could tech you could point at
that and be like, all these kids got sober, It's like,
well they didn't really have a choice. Yeah, and then
once they were out, they were left on their own
with like suddenly a constant sense of no like no
self worth basically.
Speaker 7 (30:00):
Yeah, and everything was like a punishment. Like it was
like if I did something quote unquote wrong or whatever,
even if the world didn't punish me or like the
constant there weren't like consequences, like I would be punishing me,
you know. So yeah, and that was like I think
all from that place, you know, Like I mean I
(30:21):
would say, like in hindsight, like my parents are two
good people. They were never like abusive or anything. They
might not have been the best parents in terms of
like parenting or like having a relationship with me, but
I definitely didn't come from like an abusive background before this,
you know.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Right, Yeah, that just constant. I mean we see it
in so many cults and so many religions all the time,
Like when your whole worldview is centered around what you're
doing wrong. Yeah, like that is just not going to
not have an impact on adults, On fully formed adults
with fully formed identities and thriving lives like over time.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
It's just like yeah, bucks, you up.
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (31:01):
And one other thing that I forgot to mention, like that,
have you guys heard of synan On?
Speaker 3 (31:07):
Yes, I was going to mention sin On because I
think that's what I was actually thinking of when I said.
Speaker 7 (31:11):
Like a lot of these boarding schools mine included, like
the methods were pretty much taken from Synanon in terms
of like you know, like the reprimanding and the group
humiliation and all of that stuff. Like that's very like
Synanon total tactic.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
It's a classic cult tactic.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
I mean like public humiliation in front of the group
and having like never being good enough and yeah, like
all of these things are.
Speaker 5 (31:39):
Pretty pretty and it works perfectly. It does.
Speaker 9 (31:43):
The fucking craziest part, Yeah, it really is just a
perfect system of control.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
You want to.
Speaker 5 (31:50):
Believe that you're immune to that.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
You know that you get in there and you'd be
like you'd have the mental fortitude to like withstand it,
but like we fucking don't. Like we're just animal with
their stupid animal brains, and if we people take advantage
of them, they can.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
I love when people say like, oh I can never
get like sucked into a cult, and it's like you
really don't know. And also I think for a lot
of adults it's probably like timing in terms of like
what is going on in their lives and where they
are emotionally and maybe where they're not or whatever. But
like as a child, it's like, oh, you're fucking getting
(32:28):
sucked in no matter what, you know what I mean,
even if you don't believe it, like exactly.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's how like in my cult, I didn't believe it,
but I was in it. Yeah, I still hated myself
through the lives of it, even though I was like
this is dumb. Yeah, it's just like a very odd Yeah,
you can resist the boarding school but still.
Speaker 6 (32:46):
Have to be entrenched in the belief system somehow.
Speaker 5 (32:50):
It's so weird for sure.
Speaker 7 (32:51):
Yeah, even like you know, I'm not trying to say
like all religions bad or something, but even like I
remember I had a you know, a girlfriend friend who
grew up Catholic or whatever, and I think, you know,
one time she was we were having like a conversation
and she was like, you know, like deep down I.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
Do feel bad about like there are some.
Speaker 7 (33:12):
Negative emotions about having like sex outside of marriage, even
though she wasn't religious at all, like didn't believe in it.
Oh whatever, Sure, it's just like that ingrain thing.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
Yeah that was me post Mormonism.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Yeah yeah, I like even though Mormons don't believe in hell,
they literally have a different belief system. It's like you
just go to the lower tier of heaven or whatever,
but you don't get to chill with your family in heaven.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
So I don't want to true.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
But I still for some reason when I had sex,
was like I'm going to Hell, Like that was where
my head went because it's such a horrible sin in Mormonism,
and for years I had such awful bagage aroundite.
Speaker 6 (33:55):
Lola is still soaking? Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, and I'm doing it right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
I don't know when we should jump to this part,
but I want to hear about the.
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Day you like leave, what that feels like. Are we
ready for that?
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (34:17):
Oh man, that was like the greatest day of my life.
Speaker 7 (34:20):
Yeah, graduated, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (34:24):
I feel like, what did it?
Speaker 7 (34:26):
The first day felt amazing. It's it's actually weird because
it's hard for me to really remember the first day.
The first day is kind of what you'd say, it's
like there's a graduation ceremony because you're also graduating from
high school and then you go out to lunch and
all this stuff. And my best friend from there that
(34:47):
I told you about, he had to stay for another
six months, so you know, like I felt bad for
him and that was sad saying goodbye. And then it
ended up being that he had a home. Is it
timed for when I was graduating? So we both like
left campus that same day together and he actually never
went back.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
WHOA, But uh, you're like rolling out of the threshold
of that place, Like is it just like scary or.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Is it first?
Speaker 7 (35:18):
It's just like except like there are so many things
that they deem negative there that you can't talk about.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
So all rap music is negative? Oh sorry?
Speaker 7 (35:29):
Like literally, like there was no rapper reggae that you
could listen.
Speaker 4 (35:33):
To except it's like pot culture or something.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
But the only thing that wasn't negative was modest Y
Who because he was white reggae. But yeah, there was
no like rapper reggae. There was no like R rated movies,
and you couldn't even say like you could not say
the name Snoop Dogg for example.
Speaker 5 (35:59):
You couldn't say the names. What would happen if you said.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
They'd be like that's negative. You have to stop saying that, Like.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
He's going to appear in the mirror behind.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
It was literally like so yeah.
Speaker 7 (36:09):
That was another thing too, is like by the time
you leave, like culturally, you don't know what's going on,
Like there is a like you leave and you try
to interact with people, Like I remember I left and
I came back to LA for a visit, like you know,
like to visit home. I mean before I was going
to like go to college and in New York City
(36:30):
and I was hanging out with a friend and he
put on Lil Wayne's The Carter Too, and I was
like what is this? And he was like what are
you talking about? And I was like, I've never heard
this before, like this is good, and he's like this
is Lil Wayne, dude, like this is the biggest album
in the world. And I was like I didn't, I've
never heard of that. But that was like every that
(36:51):
was like culturally kind of everything.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Did you have internet there with like.
Speaker 7 (36:56):
A shitloader really just to like do some schoolwork, like
you couldn't like go on ship, right, So yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
You're just like dropped back in the world of rap, porn,
the news, everything fresh, freedom, wild.
Speaker 8 (37:12):
Oh.
Speaker 7 (37:12):
I just like the first night I like after I left,
I was like in New York City and I just
like walked around by myself and I was like, it
felt like I was like in a dream or something.
And then the first the thing that I remember clearly though,
is the next day I woke up and I felt
really sad that I didn't like wake up in the
(37:34):
dorm with all of the people, like all my friends social. Yeah,
like I felt I felt very alone, very quickly.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
Right damn yeah.
Speaker 6 (37:45):
Wow, Go ahead.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
I mean, I know you kind of already told us
it took you a few years to unpack what had happened.
How have you processed it over time? What's your sense
of it now?
Speaker 7 (37:59):
Well, I think first there was no questioning of it,
Like I think I didn't know to question it, and
I did probably would have been like too overwhelming. I
also like had no fucking clue how to like I could,
Like I said, when I left, I continue to stay
sober for a while, and being an AA was helpful
(38:19):
because it was very different than that. But at least
there was somewhat of like a common language, like, but
I had no idea how to interact with like people
my age that were like, you know, quote unquote normal
people like I. When I went to college immediately after
and at the school I went to for the first
(38:40):
six months, they you kind of like it's like group
block scheduling and what the the what they try to
do is kind of keep you in the same classes
with the same like twenty freshmen so that you can
kind of build a network of friends or whatever. And
they would all hang out with each other and I
literally like, I don't think. I don't think I said
word to them the whole time. And then I remember
(39:02):
right before spring break, I was going into a class
and they were all leaving and they were like, hey,
we're not going to go to class, Like, why don't
you come hang out with us in Central Park? And
I was like, all right, I guess I probably should
do that. And I got there and I like legitimately
like I was like I don't know what to say
to these people. And I like texted my AA sponsor
(39:23):
and I was like, Hey, can you call me in
two minutes? And he called me, and I was so
far like the idea that I even was pretending to
have a girlfriend was laughable, like my girlfriend, yeah, and
he was like this like forty year old gay dude.
And I was like, I answer the phone. I was like, oh,
hey baby, Oh you're down the street. Yeah, no, I'll
be there in a second. I was like, sorry, guys,
(39:44):
my girlfriend's call. And then yeah, and then I don't know.
I I my first girlfriend when I left was a
girl that was there with me. Yeah, and U and then.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (40:01):
And then I started to like actually like have some
interests in undergrad and so I started to meet people
that way. And then my girlfriend, like my long term
like six year relationship, like she wasn't sober when we
started dating, and so like that was kind of the
first time where I was really kind of building relationships
(40:23):
with people that like weren't sober or like hadn't gone
to that school. And mind you, this like three years
after I left, and then it kind of started from there.
And then like right after we started dating, I like
started therapy, which I'd always been like very against therapy,
and that was like a very long process. Like I
(40:44):
still see that therapist now like once a month, like
for check ins and if you were to ask her
like legitimately, like I think almost nothing changed.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
For like eight years.
Speaker 7 (40:56):
Like we would see each other once a week, and
I would just sit there and say almost nothing and
she and at some point in the session, I'd like
break down crying and she wouldn't really know why. I mean,
she'd know why, but it wouldn't be like and I'm
feeling this and that, Like I couldn't even communicate how
I was feeling.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Whoa Like.
Speaker 7 (41:17):
And then and then my ex broke up with me,
and she was like I can't really do this anymore
because I you know, we'd been we'd been in a
relationship six years, and I don't think I once.
Speaker 4 (41:33):
Said I feel dot dot dot Like I.
Speaker 7 (41:36):
Was like so emotionally shut down. Yeah, and then when
she broke up with me, that kind of was like
the beginning of the helpful unraveling. Like I relapsed, and
you know, I was a fucking mess for like two
or three years or whatever, But it was really the
beginning of like, oh, I this is going to like
(41:56):
this is going to be my life till I die
unless I like do something about it.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Whoa Yeah, Yeah, it's like your body knew that there
was a lot of trauma, but your mind didn't know
how to express it.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
And that's yeah, that's so sad.
Speaker 5 (42:13):
I'm glad that you broke through after all that time
about that.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
But also you said something so interesting that I don't
want to forget, which is when you like genuinely became
interested in something, is when you kind of started making friends.
And I always say that in the X two by
two group because people are like, I don't.
Speaker 6 (42:30):
Know how to make friends.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I don't know, and I'm just I think classes, even
as an adult, of something you're genuinely passionate about, is
like the way to make friends.
Speaker 5 (42:40):
After all, it's a great tip.
Speaker 7 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, I think also I like luked out, which
is that, like the thing that I was interested in
is by nature like fully collaborative, so like that is
not like doing it by myself.
Speaker 5 (42:52):
Right, he's referring to filmmaking.
Speaker 7 (42:54):
Yeah, yeah, everybody, that's true.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I'm curious because now obviously we know so much more
about how many people left his program and went on
to die.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
What do you attribute that to?
Speaker 7 (43:12):
Well, I think, for I think most kids that got
sent there, probably like ninety eight percent had some sort
of like legitimate problems you know, like I don't know
that everybody was like an alcoholic or drug addict, Like
some of them might have just been like mental health stuff,
you know, Like I think it was a variety of things.
(43:33):
But I think that the majority of kids there, either
before they got there or after they left, like ended
up becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. And I think because
the school like tried to use AA as like a
punishment tool, which is like very different than what AA
(43:54):
or like my experience of AA has actually been. I
think a lot of them had just this thing that
they couldn't get past. And I don't think A is
like the only way for like a drug addict or
an alcoholic to you know, like change or you know,
overcome their addiction or something. But I do think it's
(44:15):
probably the easiest way, Like you know, it's you know,
there's just like a program of action that you do
and it's pretty simple, Like it's probably not easy, but
it's like pretty simple, and you have like a community
of people to help you through it or whatever. And
they a lot of them like couldn't get their foot
in the door because they just couldn't see it as
(44:37):
something separate from that place, and then I think for
a lot of people just even you know, like I
have a lot of friends that you know, did go
to AA or were sober for a while, who you
know psychologically, It just was a lot, And one of
which was my friend who was sober for like a
(44:59):
number of years and then started and he was like
a pretty bad junkie and ended up getting sober, and
we knew each other from this school, and he ended
up getting sober again after kind of like a longer
about with like heroin and was sober for a number
of years and then he started like microdosing like THHC
(45:19):
and really getting into that, but like wasn't drinking or
doing harder drugs or anything, and like was trying to
write a book on this place and like fully went
crazy and like killed himself. I mean I think he
had I think he had other mental health stuff that
was unlocked from, like cause I know a lot of
(45:41):
people that are like predisposed to, you know, to like
mental health disorders like can have that you know, kind
of like exaggerated by using like THHC. But yeah, he
like fully went off the rails. And it was really
like it was really dark and it was really scary,
(46:02):
and it was during the pandemic, so you know, everybody
was really isolated. But it was also like when the
whole like George Floyd protests were happening, so we like weirdly,
you know, and people started to kind of leave their houses,
so like we were seeing him kind of often. And
then he just kind of started like not making He'd
send us like nonsensical texts or whatever, and he just
(46:25):
like manically would talk about how he's like writing this
book about this place or whatever.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
But yeah, he like killed.
Speaker 7 (46:33):
Himself and he had like a deep level of like
self hatred and like a deep like contempt for like
any sort of like spirituality in aa like totally from
that place, and like he ended up stabbing himself.
Speaker 4 (46:48):
It was really it was really dark.
Speaker 7 (46:51):
Sorry, I mean yeah, but but I think I think,
you know, I think.
Speaker 4 (46:56):
That place took a lot of tools that probably would.
Speaker 7 (47:00):
Help people through things like this and just like twisted
them into these like you know, bludgeoning tools rather than
tools of help or whatever.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Well, and and trauma can increase the risk of addiction
and uh, you know, mental health struggles as it is,
so if someone's already coming in with that and then
they're being rolled into a carpet in a room, you know,
like that's yeah. The New York Times article if anyone's
interested talks about how you know, there were there'd be
(47:31):
people who would like testify and be speaking out against
how much it messed up them and their friends, and
then that person later would kill themselves, Like yeah, it
really it was a real yeah, real dark place, and
I am sorry that you experienced that, thank you, but
I'm glad you're doing better. And are you in a
(47:52):
healthy relationship now?
Speaker 4 (47:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (47:54):
I am in a healthy relationship now. Although my girlfriend
and i'd just gotten a fight the other day and
I was just like not, I like shut down for
a second. She's like, what what's wrong? And I was
like talking, it's just so gross. So yeah, you know,
for the most part, but there are moments where I,
(48:16):
you know, fall short. But yeah, yeah, for sure, I
mean the last like since like coming back from that relapse,
like honestly like, yeah, my life's like the best it's
ever been for sure.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Yeah amazing, And you definitely like you still do aa
yeah and I do as well. So yeah, so yeah,
I mean it is.
Speaker 6 (48:37):
An important program that I strongly encourage anyone to utilize
if they want to. It does have that confusing aspect
where it can be culty.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
But it doesn't have to be for sure.
Speaker 6 (48:47):
Yeah you know, so yeah.
Speaker 7 (48:50):
I think like in any group, like you find people
like I think I just got better at going to
AA and being like I want to be around that person.
I don't want to be around that person because like
the first like the first sponsor I really gravitated to
was like super controlling, and it felt really comfortable because
(49:11):
it was like an extension of that place and in
a really like inappropriate way, like inappropriate even like in the.
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Realm of AA.
Speaker 7 (49:20):
Like I think if you were to tell most people
the way he like quote unquote sponsored, they'd be like
that's fucked up, Like that's crazy. But that was like
what I knew, that was like what I gravitated towards.
And now I'm just like very clear on like what
works for me, what I want, Like I don't like
I'm pretty comfortable with who I am to the extent
(49:43):
that i'd be like I'm not fucking doing that.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah yeah, yeah, j any words of wisdom for our listeners.
Speaker 7 (49:51):
No pressure words of wisdom.
Speaker 4 (49:55):
I don't know if this words of wisdom.
Speaker 7 (49:57):
But I think just like in high insight, I would say,
there's nothing in my life that I look back on
and I'm like, wow, I really wish that didn't happen
to me. Like ultimately, you know, all of these things
that we experience, you know, have like ultimately led to
(50:18):
like being beneficial. You know, it took a long time,
and it took a lot of like you know, there
was a lot of like progress and then regression and
all of that stuff. But like in hindsight, I definitely
am weirdly kind of quite grateful for all of it.
Speaker 6 (50:35):
And that's called resilience. And you should listen to.
Speaker 9 (50:39):
And post Traumatic Grow post Traumatic Crowd, which we also
have an episode on.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
I mean not Amen, yay, amen, Amen.
Speaker 6 (50:51):
Thank you so much for being a guest. This is
such a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 5 (50:55):
Yeah, thank you, Yoni.
Speaker 4 (50:56):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5 (50:58):
And that's the end of you. No, oh my goodness,
that's the end of Yonie.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's the end of Yanie's interview. Continue forever, Ayoni, continue forever.
Speaker 4 (51:11):
Amen.
Speaker 5 (51:13):
Yeah, I'm I'm really glad he came on.
Speaker 3 (51:15):
We didn't really talk about it in the interview, but
there are like strange connections to people that we know,
like it all kind of intersects with Yoni and this
particular program.
Speaker 6 (51:27):
Yeah, do you have what a final thoughts?
Speaker 4 (51:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (51:31):
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Well, I want to land on something you planted out earlier,
which was that, well you say it okay about the recruitment.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
Yeah, I guess one thing that I think is sort
of an interesting takeaway maybe or maybe not interesting at
all we'll see about this episode is that you know,
there there is As we know, many cults recruit from
vulnerable populations, which could mean a variety of things, but
groups like sen and on scientology recovery programs like this
(52:05):
I say programs or recovery in air quotes are recruiting
from a very particular vulnerable population, which is those who
are struggling with substance use disorders. And I mean, you know,
as we know, like really anything, cults will really find
anything to latch onto that might make you feel like
(52:26):
you need help or like you need community or something.
But that's just a particularly insidious one, I feel like,
because that population is so in need of help, and yeah,
they're so they're so vulnerable, they need legitimate treatment, they
need evidence based treatment and support, and you know, groups
(52:46):
like that will sort of masquerade as being support and
then actually be causing more harm in the end than.
Speaker 2 (52:54):
Than Absolutely, it's such a good point, and I wish
there was a better solution built into society.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
We should we shouldn't do that, guys.
Speaker 5 (53:03):
I think about this all the time. I mean, this
is sort of a tangent, so ignore me.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
But like, there's there's a group called you know, I
became interested in this because of my brother's ventanyl overdose.
If anyone doesn't know, my brother overdosed on fentanyl and
he has he has a brain injury now as a result,
and is no longer able to live independently and in like,
(53:27):
you know, like learning about that whole world because he
was trying to get into treatment when he overdosed and
his insurance didn't cover it whatever, whatever, it was awful.
There's an organization called shatter Proof that is working to
have there be standardized evidence based care across rehabs in
the country, because right now there's no standardized care. So
(53:47):
people can just buy a place and be like yeah,
we got yeah horse therapy, and that's literally all they do,
and then they're sending people in their merry way having
spent thirty thousand dollars, you know, like it's we talked
about it before, is something I'm passionate about.
Speaker 5 (54:02):
So anyway, there are groups that are working to standardize that. Karen,
I think it's so so so so so so so
so important.
Speaker 2 (54:07):
Personally, absolutely, And you know, there's always that vulnerable population
of people who were in cults from birth are joined
one and then they get into substance abuse issues because
of the trauma.
Speaker 6 (54:22):
It's just such a delicate web.
Speaker 3 (54:25):
So yeah, if you are struggling with the substance use disorder,
please seek treatment twelve step programs. There are lots of
resources availables. Our producer Steve will drop.
Speaker 5 (54:36):
Them into the show notes.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
And yeah, and I hope you are all going easy
on yourselves this holiday season.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Absolutely, thank you so much for spending another week with us.
We can't wait to see you again next week. And
as always, remember.
Speaker 6 (54:54):
To follow your gut, watch out for red.
Speaker 5 (54:56):
Flags, and never ever trust me.
Speaker 6 (55:00):
Ye trust Me.
Speaker 3 (55:05):
Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator,
with special thanks to Stacy Para and her theme song
was composed by Holly Amber Church. You can find us
on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me
Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (55:24):
And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 5 (55:29):
Remember to rate and review and spread the word.
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