July 11, 2024 • 36 mins
Hi Guys, welcome back to TV Reload. Thank you for clicking or downloading on today’s episode with Kirk Docker one of my favourite TV producers. He is back on the podcast to discuss his new TV series on the ABC called “I was Actually There.” Which is a brilliant follow up to his award winning series You Can’t ask that!
He has been acknowledged with multiple awards and the You Cant Ask that format is the most successful series in ABC history, selling to 32 territories, and broadcast in 9 different languages world wide.
When it comes to the content Kirk creates, no subject is off-topic.
Through Kirk’s work over the years he has acknowledged that every human, no matter what they believe or how high their stature they all share a core value: the desire to be understood.
Today we unpack the bold new six-part documentary which explores defining moments of our recent history through the eyes, ears and voices of those who witnessed them firsthand. From Port Arthur to the Beatles and even to the depths of the Beaconsfield mines - each topic is compelling and I think you will all walk away wanting to devour the whole series which is available to watch on View right now.
- We will unpack what happened to You Can’t Ask that - if it has run its course. Could it come back and where that conversation is.
- This is a great opportunity to talk about how Kirk manages to get the crucial human elements out of his interviewees. How long it takes to film and edit each episode and what he wants people to feel with his new series.
- We will talk about the companion podcast and what made him want to release longer edits of some of the contributors retellings of their topic.
- Kirk shares some really fascinating behind the scenes elements to this show and why he is more fascinated with the nuances and the mannerisms over what is actually being shared
There is so much to unpack with Kirk. So sit back and relax as we unpack the wonderful world of “I was Actually there.”
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's in the news today, but it was actually on
TV Reload the podcast last weep their line.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to
thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with
Kirk Docker, one of my favorite TV producers, who is
back on the podcast to discuss his new TV series
on ABC called I Was Actually There, which is a
brilliant follow up to his award winning series You Can't Ask.
That he has been acknowledged with multiple awards and that
(00:28):
you Can't ask that format is the most successful series
in ABC history, selling to thirty two territories and broadcasting
in nine different languages worldwide. One of my favorite things
about Kirk is when it comes to his content, no
subject is off topic. Through Kirk's work over the years,
he kind of has this methodology that every human, no
(00:49):
matter what they believe or how high their stature is,
that they all share a call value and that is
the desire to be understood. Today we unpack the bold
new six part document series which explores the defining moments
of our recent history through the eyes and ears and
voices of those who witness them first, from Port Arthur
to the Beatles, and even to the depths of the
(01:11):
beacon filled minds. Each topic is compelling and I think
you will walk away wanting to devour this whole series,
which is now available to watch on iView. We will
unpack what happened to you can't ask that if it
has run its course, could have come back, and where
that conversation with ABC is currently at. There is a
great opportunity to talk about how Kirk manages to get
(01:33):
the crucial human element out of his interviewees, how long
it takes to film and edit each episode, and what
he wants people to feel with his brand new series.
We will talk about the Companion podcast and what made
him want to release a longer edit of some of
the contributors retelling their story. Kirk shares some really fascinating
(01:53):
behind the scenes elements to the show and why he
is more fascinated with some of the nuances and mannerisms
over what is actually being said. There is, of course,
so much to unpack with Kirk, so sit back and
relax as we unpack the wonderful world of I was
actually there. This is very exciting, by the way, because
this show is amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh good. It's nice to hear that. Look, you make
these things in silo, and you like it, and you're
doing your best work that you possibly can, and you
think that you're putting something out to the world. But
as we know, there's a lot of content that's being
made at the moment, and getting cut through is really
really difficult, and you know, these things could quite as
easily just disappear into the list of all these other
shows that are being made. So trick is trying to
(02:35):
create something that people want to actually talk about afterwards
and discuss and feel something, hopefully learn something and create
conversations and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, hopefully
it's going to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Was there a lot of pressure for you to follow
up the success if you can't ask that with something
equally compelling.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Look, I was definitely aware of the difficult follow up
album of creating something. Look, you can't ask That was
something that we got lucky with in a sense. It
was a small idea that that was probably uniquely timed
twenty fifteen when that first happened that it just it
scratched a niche at the time. This idea of political
correctness and what we can say and can't say was
something that was being grappled with openly in the public discourse,
(03:14):
and we felt like there was something that could be
added to that mix. And then, you know, even I
remember in season two thinking we're going to run out
of groups. You know how many misunderstood groups there were,
and then we expanded what that idea of being misunderstood was.
I don't think I felt the pressure from anyone out
in the world, but I did have pressure myself to go, Okay,
this thing has done well, and what am I going
(03:34):
to do next? How am I going to leverage this
great thing that we've done to do something new. I
wanted to take the learnings of you kin't ask that,
and I've done this before. Years ago. I did a
website online and we got some money to make a pilot,
and we sort of ignored all the good parts about
what that project was and tried we went, oh, we've
suddenly got a budget now and let's just go nuts.
(03:55):
We lost the soul of the project in a way.
So with this new one I did, I don't want
to forget the learnings that we had from yukon't ask that,
the things that work so well, It's cut from the
same cloth. As you can ask that, but it's a
new suit. We're taking these things that we'd loved, speaking
to people that normally don't appear on camera, understanding stories
that we that we feel like we are stereotyped in
(04:16):
our eyes, and this sort of beautiful way of interviewing
or intercut stories. But then the sort of applying it
to new craft and taking a moment an idea. People
who are far more linked as opposed to you can
ask that where they're very they're linked by a label,
but that's sort of it. People here at linked genuinely
come across each other's paths, are involved in each other's
stories for this particular period of time, and it was
(04:38):
different storytelling because we're telling one story where everyone's giving
their bits, their perspectives, their take, versus the smattering of
different stories. So yeah, to go back to your original question,
I was nervous about progressing on from ukn't ask that
and doing something that you didn't want to people to say, oh,
it's yeah, it's good, but you should have kept doing
(04:58):
You can't ask that. You do have that year in
the back of your mind. You can't just keep sitting
on that one idea. I did want to be known
as the you can't ask that guy for my whole career.
There's other stories to tell and another steps in your
own personal progression you want to make, and just very
simply in this we used archive, We shot stuff in
location and use that as part of the storytelling. We
(05:18):
didn't have this card system that we did. It was
all intricately woven. It was this time of day, so
there were these new elements that we bought in. Didn't
really think of you can't Ask that as a format
when we started it, but it became one that around
the world they made their own versions of it, and
that was really exciting to see a French version, or
a Dutch version, or a Norwegian version. And so with
(05:39):
this one, you thought, God, this actually could really work
in other parts of the world too. So how do
you create something that can be transplanted somewhere else and
they can plug in their events and it can work
as well. How do you create a format where you
can put in a tragedy and you can put in
a really happy, amazing moment and it still works. And
so that's a really fun part of the process too.
Applying all the learnings you can't ask that to create
(06:02):
a format where we can almost put in any moment,
any event, and you can analyze it from the perspective
of those that were just there. And that's the simplicity
of it, despite there being all these little complex moving parts.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Was there a reason that you decided to arrest you
can't ask that? I mean, were they wanting more of
that show? And you were like, Okay, I don't want
to be the you can't ask that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So seven season, seven years of any one idea is
a long time, and I wanted to get out of
pores you can't ask, So let's just say it that way,
pores you kin't ask that while we still had ideas
that we weren't necessarily being pushed, that we weren't just
scraping the cupboard for any old idea so that we
could remain on air. You know, I feel like I've
got another season or two of you can't ask that
(06:44):
ideas that are sitting on the shelf. So I wanted
to sort of pause it while we felt like it
was still fresh or still doing things that you felt
like the audience was still keen to see it, that
it hadn't run its course. So I thought that was important.
I also felt the itch to do something new that
I didn't. You know, if we've done another year or two,
that's almost a decade of doing one idea. And I
was a little bit fearful of forgetting how to make
(07:06):
other content that that was my only I only knew
how to make that, so and I wanted to apply
my craft. You know, I'm very fascinated with the interview
about asking questions about understanding people and experiences, and I
speak about it. I go into these organizations and I
unpack this interview process. I write about it, I think
about it a lot. I'm very fascinated by it, and
(07:27):
I wanted to apply my craft in a different scenario.
I felt like i'd sort of in a lot of
ways mastered that you can't ask that style of interview,
so I wanted to do that too. So there's personal
growth in it as well as the desire to create
something new and to also I suppose get out. Yeah,
like I said, before the show got stale or people
got sick of it, or they didn't want it anymore,
that you want to sort of not head out on top,
(07:49):
because that's not how I really think about it. But
head out while it's well, it's still good and fresh.
You are the master, though, at storytelling. I think you
can tell story worry very well. Even when people listening
to this now, they'll be like, you know, you tell
a story with a beginning, in the middle and an end,
and you don't leave out the detail. But people don't
get a chance to probably see when you're behind the
(08:11):
camera or maybe not even in this interview, is that
you're an incredible listener, and you're an incredible listener to detail,
and that is such a skill. Look, it's a weird
thing for me to be on this side talking as
much as I am, because my natural place is behind
the camera and listening. It's interesting you pull up on
the details. The details is what makes things trusting and
(08:34):
real and not cliche. And getting people to when I'm
interviewing people, asking questions, getting them to reflect on what
they've learned or how they've grown, or how it changed
them or what impact it had on them, getting to
sort of think past that second or third or fourth
level of how they might tell that story to someone
in their normal life, to get new revelations, to find
(08:54):
curiosity in the weirdness of stuff that to me, is
just the joy of it all. We're such a what
a nation of turning our nose up to things, to
finding problems with people, to disagreeing to not liking something
because it's so different from how we live as opposed
to looking at with the lens of what are you doing?
Why does that bring you joy? And how do I
get that? And what's so interesting about that? And let
(09:17):
me stand in your shoes for a little period of time.
That's the That's the beautiful thing about being able to
interview someone is that for a period of time, maybe
two hours. I've got this person who's going to sit
there and be open about their life, and I get
to stand in their shoes and understand it. It's so
good as opposed to how we might exist at a
pub where we're fighting for our chance to tell our
two cents, our little bit, how good we're going, what's
(09:38):
great for us. Sometimes I actually really struggle with that
when someone says, oh, how's this thing going, and I'm like, oh,
how how do I do it? That keeps their interests
so they don't sort of glaze over and move. You know,
we've all felt that in public interactions where you're trying,
in some ways entertain someone with your response so they
don't get bored of you, Whereas I feel like if
(10:00):
you're just curious, what that does is unlock someone and
then they will start telling all these things. And you know,
I can be interested almost anything.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I think very few people get a chance to tell
their story without being interrupted. And if you can stay
quiet and you can be curious and you can be interested,
people will tell you anything. I think we all have
a yearning to want to hear have our story told,
and I think with this as well. I was a
little bit frightened because I flew in blind to watching
(10:28):
the episodes. I was like, oh wow, I know what
this is. I'm going to watch it. But I just
was scared about unpacking some of these things, like Port Arthur.
It's a very sensitive topic. A lot of people have
told their story in very different forms sixty minutes, et cetera,
but no one's ever unpacked it like we've seen and
what Australia will see in this first episode, you learn
(10:49):
way more than we've ever learned about what happened in
Port Arthur that day. Might I had to pick my
drawer off the floor because something like this that happened
so long ago. I've all of a sudden just given
a fist full of information about it, and I learned
so much in just a small period of time from
these people.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Oh thank you for saying so. Look, at the end
of the day, it's just a series of people talking
about what it's like to be in their shoes that
particular day. So we're not trying to You're not going
to come away from this episode knowing all the numbers,
the facts, the details that you can go and read
on Wikipedia later.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, but you don't want that either. No, people have
still frightened by port Arthur.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's right. Get all those details elsewhere and you can
find out the sort of the wrap up of any
one of these moments in documentaries or in sixty minutes,
all that sort of stuff. But what you're going to
get from this show is like sitting down next to
someone at a dinner party or something and then finding
out that they had this experience and then saying them, go,
what did you see and what was that like? That's
sort of the premise behind that's the beginning point of
(11:48):
all these interviews. It's like imagining you're getting access to
someone who's gone through an extraordinary moment, and you get
to I got to just ask them what did you see,
what was it like, how did it impact you? And
what are you rem because part of this, too is
about memory and what sticks in your mind and what doesn't,
and none of that is right or wrong. It's fascinating.
(12:08):
You know, one of the participants in the portart episode,
she was the GP And some of this isn't really
included ultimately in the episode because we can only include
so much of each person, but one of the things
she often would say in the interview is I can't remember.
I can't remember blah blah blah. And to me, that
was fascinating. What details stick in your mind and when
they stick in their mind. For some of these people,
it's in minute, detailed, incredible detail, sounds and smells and
(12:33):
intricate stuff, and then there's other huge blanks that they
just can't remember it all, and that's how the mind works.
Then there's other stuff where people get details wrong. You know,
in one of the episodes, a gentleman, no, it doesn't
argue with me, but he's you know, he's telling me
this detail and they're through research. I knew that detail
is telling me was wrong. And I said to him, look,
I actually think it's this, And even in the interview
(12:54):
he wouldn't admit it. He would say it's this all
that for me. I found that very interesting, how details,
how they get forged in your memory. The other thing
I found interesting, here's multiple people hurt the same thing,
where they might be standing somewhat near each other, yet
their experience is vastly different how it impacts them. And
look the boxing n tsunami, for example, there's people just
(13:14):
talk about very broadly who've gone back to Thailand, who
have gone to the memorial see Thailand as almost like
a sacred place where someone's been lost, and they see
it as a very special place. Others haven't been swimming. Again,
here's two people who have seen the same thing from
the same angle, yet how it's impacted them is vastly different.
So what we're trying to say with this show is
(13:34):
that there's no right or wrong answer. That you and
I can stand next to each other and we can
experience it completely differently and we can both be correct
in a lot of ways. In twenty twenty four, we've
lost this idea that we can have different perspectives that
we can have different takes on something. It's like you're
right and you're wrong, but actually we can both be
(13:54):
right and we can compare notes, and there's all these
different reasons why something might affect you in different ways.
But there's this idea that Okay, well you're at Port Arthur,
everyone's traumatized. Well, actually that's not the truth. There's definitely
some people who are still very much traumatized by that
day and can't talk about it and don't want to
talk about it. There's others who definitely still feel trauma
(14:15):
and are triggered by it, but feel like they can
handle it when it comes up, and they wanted to
share their story even if it felt very sensitive. There
was others that felt like they could talk about it
very very openly. They've definitely come to terms that they've
moved on. There was a day in their life that happened,
but it isn't the defining day of their life. And
then there's sort of other things in between that depending
on what your role was, what you saw, depending on
(14:37):
your personality type and your character traits and the support
that you had, and all these other things that add
into it. There's not just this one blanket you're traumatized,
you're not traumatized. But that's sort of how we often
look at these sorts of things, don't.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You think as well, Like we've all had trauma or grief.
We've all had these emotions, and we feel like we
can't share it, like there's something about it where we
bury it deep inside. But for most people, I feel
like it's sharing your story. It actually helps just sharing
your story. I remember, even on Saturday night, I unpacked
something that is terrible that had happened to me. It
(15:11):
was sixteen years ago when I lost my father, and
I felt embarrassed at the time while I was sharing
that story because someone was asking about it. But then
I woke up the next day and I felt like
this huge weight had been taken off me, and I
thought to myself, how long have I been walking around
with that?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
What you're saying is a massive truth that I think
a lot of us don't realize that through interviewing literally
thousands of people, what is respected is when people are honest, truthful,
they're authentic. They just say it how it is. They're
not trying to manipulate the story to sound better. They're
not trying to rehearse the story to the nth degree,
(15:49):
so it comes out perfectly. That just comes across as false,
It comes across as practiced, it comes across as manipulative.
We all think that we want to be these perfect
publics speakers, where we have these eloquent stories and we're
funny in this and that. But what really resonates is
when people are just honest. They're truthful. The people that
have appeared, you know, on YU can't as sad and
(16:11):
appear on this show. They own their story. They've come
to terms with it, even if they might struggle with
certain bits, they may not love all the certain bits
in some respects, they've accepted who they are and they're like,
this is me, take it all, leave it. That's why,
you know a lot of people would say to me, Oh,
but what's going to happen to these people when they
share all this honesty you know on TV. I'm just gonna
say they're going to get respected. That's what's going to happen.
(16:32):
People are going to look at them and go, my god,
I wish I had the courage of them, or I
really identify with that, or oh my god, I thought
you were so different, But in n aatural fact, now
I know the truth. I understand this. We're all yearning
to connect with truth, and we're not that different from
each other really. All these things, these labels, these traits
(16:52):
are just that's all they are, is labels. But underneath it,
we're so similar in so many ways. We want to
be loved, we want to feel connection. These people sharing
these things, it's only a positive. Some people aren't in
a situation to do it, they haven't necessarily feel like
they're too delicate or tender to necessarily share those things.
But if you've come to a place where you feel
like you can share it, feel like you can take
(17:13):
the risks, you've got the support around you, or whatever
it is to share it, it becomes, like you said,
a shared load. It doesn't become the elephant in the
room anymore. It becomes something that is just part of
who you are. It's not something that's hidden, it's just
the truth.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
One of the strange things that I've noticed about television,
and you know, people keep saying, oh, the death of television,
you know, death of free to wear too much reality.
And one of the things that I've noticed about people
when I have a conversation with them about why they're
not watching some of the big free toware networks anymore
is because they can't put their finger on it. They
really can't. But so much of television these days is
(17:49):
manipulated content to make it perfect. TV presenters that speak
perfectly in unison. It used to be very impressive. But
I actually think that that's kind of where the death
of television could come from, because an actual fact, people
have always watched television to see themselves. And the more
and more we see these word perfect TV presenters and
stories being put together. If it's unauthentic, if it's not real,
(18:13):
it doesn't matter how perfect it is, people have stopped watching.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You know, I suppose entertainment versus maybe something that has
a deeper impact in this place for entertainment. Don't get
me wrong of frivolous entertainment, but I suppose that's why
I like interviewing people outside of the cities. You know,
in the city and the bigger the city, people become
more media trained, maybe more times on their phone, they're
(18:37):
filming themselves, they're broadcasting themselves, and become more practiced at it.
Whereas the further you head away from the big major cities,
people are less that way, and so you just feel
like it's a bit more. You know, Here I am
take it or leave it, or if you get you know,
some of the older generations. I've lived in my skin
long enough. I don't give a shit anymore. Here I am.
I'm with you, like I like to see the imperfections,
(18:58):
the weirdness, the strains, the bits of people that haven't
been edited out to make them, to make them perfect.
That stuff doesn't feel I can't identify with that either.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
It's funny. I remember reading this thing. I was in
New York in two thousand and seven and I read
this thing. Meryl Street was being inducted into the Hall
of Fame at the Lincoln Center and there was an
interview in the brochure and someone the interviewer had said,
what's the connection between you and the audience? And she
said it was the way in which she studied the
small things that people do when people aren't watching. She
(19:31):
was like, that's the currency, because that's what people want
to see from me. They don't. I'm saying the lines,
and I could say the lines in a myriad of
different ways. But what people are actually watching and enjoying.
Is just those weird little things that we do every day.
That's what people are fascinated by. That's what they want
to see, That's what they've paid their money for.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's interesting you say that because when you interview someone
for a show. And I call one of the participants
the other day and I said, you know, because there
was a publication, was interested in interviewing her. This is
bridget from the port art episode The Chef. And I
said to her, I said, it's weird, you know, toying
you on the phone, because I suspent two hours with
you that one particular day last year. I said, but
(20:10):
I've sat with you in the edit sweet for weeks
and weeks and weeks, and I know every one of
your little movements and ways that you say things at
little quirks. And I said to her, I love the
way that you did this little thing, or this little
movement you did, or this funny little way that you
said it. And it becomes it's exactly right. You stop
in the edit suite necessarily loving the line they said,
(20:32):
but you love the way a funny little look they
give you. It's these it's these little tiny moments in
there that make that person endearing to you or you
love them for it. But if you could, if you
wrote it all down, if you watch the episode, no
one's going to really see those bits. I think they
unconsciously get into you. But when you sit with someone
for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, you start
(20:53):
loving all those little bits. So I totally get what
Meryl Streep's saying there. She's sort of doing and reverse,
she's sort of almost sitting in a live edit sweet
and picking up those little intricacies of someone and then
bringing into a performance. And that's what makes someone real
as opposed to I suppose, like you said, Wooden, doing
doing lines how long?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Because I know with you kin't ask that you only
had me there for an hour. I feel like you
probably thought I was.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I think I had you there a bit longer than that.
I can I can find your old interview actually and
look at generally, and I got longer and longer as
we went through this. You can't ask that series generally,
I'd put aside two hours per person, and you can't
ask that. And maybe some time for some photos at
the end. You can ask that people were sort of
even eight people, and everyone got the same set of questions,
(21:38):
and in some respects, I gave them all the same
amount of time. Whereas in this show, because it's chronological,
it starts. It doesn't look not every episode starts there
was a day like any other. Some start in the
midst of the of the of the action. Some you
don't know. You know on boxing day, you know, you
hear these people these sliding door moments at the start
where they're saying, I was going to go here, but
(21:59):
I ended up going here. I ended up on Pepe
Island on this day because of this reason. So it's
like this ominous thing that's about to unfold. They all
have their different different ways in but essentially the show
is chronological. It starts sort of at the beginning of
the day. There's a clock that moves forward through the
day until the event finishes, say it the next day.
In this show, there's people who are there at the start,
(22:20):
there's people who get involved as the event unfolds, there's
people who get involved at the end. There's some people
there at the event all the way through. There's some
people who'd leave. And so it wasn't exactly the same
for every person, say Todd Russell and Brandt Webb who
were in the beacons Field Mine episode, well they're there
from the start to the end. They went to work
and they get caught in this mind collapse and then
(22:41):
they got rescued, and then we really hear from them
right up to the present day about how this thing's
still impacting them. Whereas someone in the local town she
got involved when she heard about it the next day,
and then her involvement's more about the rescuer. And so
depending on the boxing da tsunami, the journal too flew
in there. He'd been flying in till the day till
(23:03):
later in that day after the tsunami had happened, so
he gets involved halfway through the episode. So different people
get involved at different points of time, and so that
dictates how long I speak to them. So for the
big stories, you know, I spoke to some of those
people for a number of hours as well, you know,
because I needed to capture all the detail, the facts
as far as they saw it, and then I needed
to capture the you know, how it impacted them, then
(23:23):
how it impacted them over time, how it changed them.
So there was a series of things I needed to
get out of every single person, whereas if your involvement
was smaller, I might have spent less time with you,
but still I would have spent a good hour with
most people. At least. You know, we're not filming on
film these days, so I like to go down the
garden path, find out weird stuff, get the strange stuff
that maybe others wouldn't ask about. So I generally probably
(23:44):
would spend between an hour and two and a half
hours with each of the people on the show.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
And that does it take, like you twelve months to
edit this, because I mean, the editing is so brilliant,
and obviously you've probably mastered a little bit of that
from doing you can't ask that, But the editing in
this it's just so like the clock ticking.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
The edit was challenging. We took all our learnings of
you can't ask that in the way that we intercut
people's stories, but because we didn't have eight stories to
lean on at once, at times it was only a
handful of people because of the nature of people going
in and out of the story at that period of time,
because we don't have a narrator or we don't have
(24:22):
me asking questions or we don't have soupers, or we
don't have text on screen, you know, summing it up
or anything like that. We need to get it in
the interview, and we need to be able to edit.
Between say you and me speaking, we need I need
to say something that links to you and vice versa.
So unless I've got that in the edit, it's very
difficult to tell that person's story and all these sorts
(24:43):
of things. So that was challenging. Plus working with archive
was challenging, and giving the facts but giving the emotions
at the same time. We didn't want to get too
bogged down, which is facts the whole time, but you
also need to understand the facts so you could feel
the emotion. And then giving the respect to all of
these different people that have that are given their time
and given us their honesty about the day. You want
to make sure you represent their story and their take
(25:05):
really really well. And thirty minutes isn't a long time
to tell all these different people's takes, and some of
these stories are really really big. So like I said before,
we can't tell every aspect of these days. We can't
tell all the facts. Actually, that's not what the aim is.
The aim is to try and give you a sense
of what it was like to be there, the emotion
of it, the feelings of it, and the feelings and
the emotions of all these different people, and then harmoniously
(25:27):
cut their stories together so you feel like you get
it and you understand it. So yeah, the edit was challenging,
but the whole project we probably started in August last
year and it's going to wear now, so it probably
took a bit six weeks longer than maybe what it
would take to make You cun't ask that, But again,
we're making something new, and I think that if we've
got to do it a second time, we've learned a
million things that we could take into production second time around.
(25:49):
It was a fun challenge. I didn't never hate it
going to work.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I think you need to go and buy a new
suit because I think you're going to get a lot
of awards for this show. I prepare yourself for that
because it is groundbreaking, has leveled up from what you've
done before. You should be so proud of this work.
It's extraordinary. Well that's good to hear.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And look, our aim is, obviously, is never to be
awarded for the work. What you want for me anyway,
What I want is to people to talk about it
to be something they reflect on, they reflect on their
own life, that they consider their own life differently, that
they can sit other people's lives differently, that they ask
questions of themselves. You know, that's what you want out
of That's what I want out of the content, is
(26:30):
for people to see it and think about it and
discuss it and feel the emotions of this stuff. Something
really nice that we've done too off the back of
this series, and I would have loved to have done
this on you can't ask that, but we just just
didn't think of it at the time, is that we've
taken you know, and this is another way to get
into someone's world in a way that it's almost really
impossible to do on the TV show, is that we've
(26:51):
got this sort of companion podcast too, where we're we're
taking one story from the series and you get to
hear their story in more detail. So that longer interview
I was telling you about before that two hours or
whatever it is, say, with the sniper at Port Arthur,
we've taken that and you know, we've trimmed it down
and we've added music and it's become its own story
in its own right. But you get to hear in
intimate detail more of one particular person's story. So six
(27:16):
episode Podcast two where each episode we focus on one
person from the show and you get to hear their
story in detail. So all these things, it's about trying
to create an experience for the for the audience where
they get to learn and think about their life differently.
So that's really ultimately the aim of this stuff that
we make. So but yes, thank you for being a supporter.
I appreciate it for saying of those nice things.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, no, that that's fine, lovely, it's lovely to hear.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's better than you're saying. You know, it was a
yawn fest.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
No, my god, I just can't wait to keep watching it.
I have to leave this. But what is something just
something from behind the scenes, Like, what's something that because
I end the podcast with the same question for everybody,
whether you're on survivor whether on Dancing with the Stars,
it doesn't matter what it is. What is something from
behind the scenes that we won't as an audience get
a chance to see. Kind of like a funny anecdote, let.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Me just say this and then if I can think
of something funny, I will. I think what people don't
know about how we make this stuff is that we
film people from all the different episodes, back to back
to back to back, wherever they happen to be. So
I won't just film Port Arthur in one go, or
I won't just film the Boxing Asunami one go. We'll
go to a location where those people live and will
I'll interview person from Port Arthur, the person from Boxing
(28:24):
A Tsunami, a person from Warmra, back to back to back.
So what's incredible about that is it keeps me fresh,
it keeps me interested. But what's fascinating is all these
people come in. They've had these extraordinary moments, and a
lot of them are very unsure about whether their story
is worth listening to, and in some respects need to
be reminded or convinced, Hey, we're interested, That's why we've
(28:46):
got you here. This stuff is fascinating, and it's this
sort of this humble way in which people go about
their lives, even if they've had something quite extraordinary happen
to them. They think, am I worth listening to? Am
I worth hearing? And so I think that people might find,
and that's surprising that these people that you see in
the show, they're not rehearsed speakers. They've often haven't spoken
(29:06):
about these things before or in great detail or in
the detail they're about to share with me, and some
of them think is my story even worth hearing? So
when you see them in the finished product, they come
across as incredibly confident, articulate, and you know, that's how
we cut it, not that they don't speak that way
in person, but a lot of people come to that
set that day very nervous thinking am I worth being
(29:28):
listened to? Am I going to do a good job?
And shit, is this even a good idea? So I
think that that's probably one of the things that people
maybe find most surprising about the people who appear in
our show is that they're just ordinary like us.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Absolutely, or you could be like me when I did
you can ask that. And I bought a coffee from
the coffee shop next to where we were filming, and
then I just ranted at you for like an hour
and a half or however long it was, and then
walked out of the room and you somehow manage to
pull it together. You know, it's really funny. And I'll
finish on this because it's quite hilarious. More people stop
me now for you can't ask that than big brother.
(30:05):
But for some reason, whatever you did to me on
that show made me likable.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Do people like you off the back of you can't
ask that.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
They loved it?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And I shot myself for a full nine months after
shooting it because I was like, was I a weirdo?
Did I say the worst things? What are they going
to do with all that footage?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
My god? You know? And I did worry was what
I said true?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know? We wanted people. We wanted people to like
the people on our show. That was really important to
us because we like them. Do you What's a funny
thing just just talking about doing this these long interviews
with people, is that when you give your attention to
someone and they suddenly feel comfortable your presence and then
they sort of turn off all these all these these
fears about how am I going to be seen, and
(30:45):
they just talk like a normal person and they just
become completely involved in themselves, in their own story. They
completely forget about you that you're even there asking these
questions that they're on TV that they're being filmed, it
just becomes very very very very natural. So much so
it's it's it's not uncommon for people like I remember
interviewing a gentleman from Adult Virgins episode and I spent
(31:06):
two hours quizzing about being an adult virgin and all
the ins and outs of that lifestyle and the choices
he'd made and all that sort of stuff. It was
like a pretty intimate couple of hours with this fellow,
you know. I felt like we got a photo after
and it was quite an amazing conversation. I saw that
person the next day in the street and I walked
up to them, say, Hey, how are you blah blah blah.
(31:27):
They just completely blank me. They had no idea who
I was. I was like, God, how bizarre, Like I
just spent all this time with this person. You know,
of course I could remember. It was fascinating time for me.
But it's sort of an interesting reminder that, you know,
being the interviewer in these moments is not about me.
I'm not there to be liked. I'm not there to
make friends with this person. I'm there to understand this person,
and if I can create an environment where they feel
(31:49):
very comfortable just to be themselves in talk and almost
in a way, completely forget where they are. I ultimately
saw that as a compliment that they didn't me. I
was like, Wow, what a fascinating sort off election on
that experience, that they should sit there and just talk
about themselves and get completely wrapped up in it and
everything else is sort of forgotten.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It's a good way to look at it now. I
don't feel so bad that I've interviewed Julie Goodwin three
times and this morning she didn't remember who I was
or that she did the podcast before. I was like, Julie,
you've been on the podcast three times. She was like,
oh have I? And I was like, I must be
so invisible.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You know, I'm just I annoyed. I haven't really come
up with a funny anecdote for you for this show.
How about if I asked you this way, what's the
secret that you'd want to know that? Because you know,
as sometimes you don't realize it's a secret, because it's
just it's just what you do.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I think that's stuff that's the secret behind this that
I was kind of expecting you to say was just
something that you had to didn't make the final cut
something that someone had said that you were like, I
really want to put this in, but it doesn't belong.
That's what I kind of thought you were going to say.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
We do. Definitely, we definitely have bits that we don't
include because they didn't belong because it was sort of
outside the realm of the day. For example, the sniper,
the sniper on the Port Arthur episode was a fascinating gentleman,
and he told me all these contingencies that they had planned.
Because we briefly give a nod to this in the episode,
(33:11):
but the government was talking from the old portable phone
that you have your home phone, but it was a
portable phone that had a battery and it could run
out of power. That's how they were communicating. The hostage
negotiator was communicating through this portable phone. What they didn't
realize that that phone was running out of batteries, and
when the phone rount of batteries, they had no more
communication to this guy. So then this is in the
(33:34):
evening and there's still this siege going on, and so
they're talking about how the hell do we begin contact again.
So they're tossing up all these different ideas and One
of them was they were going to get a tank
and drive a tank up to the front door with
a new phone in it and pass. They couldn't get
a tank down to Port Arthur. So then they started
looking around. This is like on a Sunday night, nine
(33:55):
ninety six, and they started looking for around for like
a military museum of some kind where someone might have
like a backyard. I've got my own military a few
vehicles or something in my own house to see they
could get like a vintage World War two tank or
something like that that they could well, they couldn't make
that happen. So they're discussing, what if we fly across
an F eighteen right over the top and create a
(34:16):
sonic boom, and in this sonic boom, we drive up
a car and this distraction is going to happen and
we throw this phone out. These are sorts of things
they were discussing. Wow, try and solve this sort of
problem anyway. Some of that stuff just doesn't make it
because it's sort of like it's not it's not part
of that the main thrust of the story. But I
was sitting there with my you know, to use the
(34:37):
saying you were saying before my jaw to the floor,
going oh my god, this is just some of some
of the things they contemplated.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
So you know that that's the weird thing. It's like,
goes back to what you were saying earlier. You know,
there's all these facts that you can look up about
Port Arthur. No one wants to read all of those facts,
you know what I mean, Like, what people want to
know is the really weird things that humans do. That
stuff is what people want to know. It's fascinating because
it also it makes it feel more real.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's not a Hollywood thing where it's all perfectly neat
put out blah blah blah. You know, it's strange, you know.
I think that's the overarching thing of all these things.
It's strange and weird in all the ways that you
could never write if you were if you were doing
it yourself. So absolutely, Look, it's lovely talking about it
after making it for however long. So it's nice to
(35:24):
be in this process and getting it out to the world.
And it's a weird work. You know, if you think
about this what we do. Not many other people after
they've worked on a project for twelve months ago it's broadcast,
it's the world, and get feedback on it. But it's
a good thing and a bad thing, and I'm hoping
it's received well.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I'm going to send you a list of now ideas
for season two.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
They're going to make you, please, please please.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
If you get a trip the in between, there go somewhere.
Sonny editing room is quite a cute space. Thank you,
look after yourself. Thank you so much. Lovely talking to you,
lovely chatting to you. Amazing
It's in the news today, but it was actually on
TV Reload the podcast last weep their line.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Hey guys, welcome back to TV Reload. I want to
thank you for clicking and downloading on today's episode with
Kirk Docker, one of my favorite TV producers, who is
back on the podcast to discuss his new TV series
on ABC called I Was Actually There, which is a
brilliant follow up to his award winning series You Can't Ask.
That he has been acknowledged with multiple awards and that
(00:28):
you Can't ask that format is the most successful series
in ABC history, selling to thirty two territories and broadcasting
in nine different languages worldwide. One of my favorite things
about Kirk is when it comes to his content, no
subject is off topic. Through Kirk's work over the years,
he kind of has this methodology that every human, no
(00:49):
matter what they believe or how high their stature is,
that they all share a call value and that is
the desire to be understood. Today we unpack the bold
new six part document series which explores the defining moments
of our recent history through the eyes and ears and
voices of those who witness them first, from Port Arthur
to the Beatles, and even to the depths of the
(01:11):
beacon filled minds. Each topic is compelling and I think
you will walk away wanting to devour this whole series,
which is now available to watch on iView. We will
unpack what happened to you can't ask that if it
has run its course, could have come back, and where
that conversation with ABC is currently at. There is a
great opportunity to talk about how Kirk manages to get
(01:33):
the crucial human element out of his interviewees, how long
it takes to film and edit each episode, and what
he wants people to feel with his brand new series.
We will talk about the Companion podcast and what made
him want to release a longer edit of some of
the contributors retelling their story. Kirk shares some really fascinating
(01:53):
behind the scenes elements to the show and why he
is more fascinated with some of the nuances and mannerisms
over what is actually being said. There is, of course,
so much to unpack with Kirk, so sit back and
relax as we unpack the wonderful world of I was
actually there. This is very exciting, by the way, because
this show is amazing.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Oh good. It's nice to hear that. Look, you make
these things in silo, and you like it, and you're
doing your best work that you possibly can, and you
think that you're putting something out to the world. But
as we know, there's a lot of content that's being
made at the moment, and getting cut through is really
really difficult, and you know, these things could quite as
easily just disappear into the list of all these other
shows that are being made. So trick is trying to
(02:35):
create something that people want to actually talk about afterwards
and discuss and feel something, hopefully learn something and create
conversations and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, hopefully
it's going to do that.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Was there a lot of pressure for you to follow
up the success if you can't ask that with something
equally compelling.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Look, I was definitely aware of the difficult follow up
album of creating something. Look, you can't ask That was
something that we got lucky with in a sense. It
was a small idea that that was probably uniquely timed
twenty fifteen when that first happened that it just it
scratched a niche at the time. This idea of political
correctness and what we can say and can't say was
something that was being grappled with openly in the public discourse,
(03:14):
and we felt like there was something that could be
added to that mix. And then, you know, even I
remember in season two thinking we're going to run out
of groups. You know how many misunderstood groups there were,
and then we expanded what that idea of being misunderstood was.
I don't think I felt the pressure from anyone out
in the world, but I did have pressure myself to go, Okay,
this thing has done well, and what am I going
(03:34):
to do next? How am I going to leverage this
great thing that we've done to do something new. I
wanted to take the learnings of you kin't ask that,
and I've done this before. Years ago. I did a
website online and we got some money to make a pilot,
and we sort of ignored all the good parts about
what that project was and tried we went, oh, we've
suddenly got a budget now and let's just go nuts.
(03:55):
We lost the soul of the project in a way.
So with this new one I did, I don't want
to forget the learnings that we had from yukon't ask that,
the things that work so well, It's cut from the
same cloth. As you can ask that, but it's a
new suit. We're taking these things that we'd loved, speaking
to people that normally don't appear on camera, understanding stories
that we that we feel like we are stereotyped in
(04:16):
our eyes, and this sort of beautiful way of interviewing
or intercut stories. But then the sort of applying it
to new craft and taking a moment an idea. People
who are far more linked as opposed to you can
ask that where they're very they're linked by a label,
but that's sort of it. People here at linked genuinely
come across each other's paths, are involved in each other's
stories for this particular period of time, and it was
(04:38):
different storytelling because we're telling one story where everyone's giving
their bits, their perspectives, their take, versus the smattering of
different stories. So yeah, to go back to your original question,
I was nervous about progressing on from ukn't ask that
and doing something that you didn't want to people to say, oh,
it's yeah, it's good, but you should have kept doing
(04:58):
You can't ask that. You do have that year in
the back of your mind. You can't just keep sitting
on that one idea. I did want to be known
as the you can't ask that guy for my whole career.
There's other stories to tell and another steps in your
own personal progression you want to make, and just very
simply in this we used archive, We shot stuff in
location and use that as part of the storytelling. We
(05:18):
didn't have this card system that we did. It was
all intricately woven. It was this time of day, so
there were these new elements that we bought in. Didn't
really think of you can't Ask that as a format
when we started it, but it became one that around
the world they made their own versions of it, and
that was really exciting to see a French version, or
a Dutch version, or a Norwegian version. And so with
(05:39):
this one, you thought, God, this actually could really work
in other parts of the world too. So how do
you create something that can be transplanted somewhere else and
they can plug in their events and it can work
as well. How do you create a format where you
can put in a tragedy and you can put in
a really happy, amazing moment and it still works. And
so that's a really fun part of the process too.
Applying all the learnings you can't ask that to create
(06:02):
a format where we can almost put in any moment,
any event, and you can analyze it from the perspective
of those that were just there. And that's the simplicity
of it, despite there being all these little complex moving parts.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Was there a reason that you decided to arrest you
can't ask that? I mean, were they wanting more of
that show? And you were like, Okay, I don't want
to be the you can't ask that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
So seven season, seven years of any one idea is
a long time, and I wanted to get out of
pores you can't ask, So let's just say it that way,
pores you kin't ask that while we still had ideas
that we weren't necessarily being pushed, that we weren't just
scraping the cupboard for any old idea so that we
could remain on air. You know, I feel like I've
got another season or two of you can't ask that
(06:44):
ideas that are sitting on the shelf. So I wanted
to sort of pause it while we felt like it
was still fresh or still doing things that you felt
like the audience was still keen to see it, that
it hadn't run its course. So I thought that was important.
I also felt the itch to do something new that
I didn't. You know, if we've done another year or two,
that's almost a decade of doing one idea. And I
was a little bit fearful of forgetting how to make
(07:06):
other content that that was my only I only knew
how to make that, so and I wanted to apply
my craft. You know, I'm very fascinated with the interview
about asking questions about understanding people and experiences, and I
speak about it. I go into these organizations and I
unpack this interview process. I write about it, I think
about it a lot. I'm very fascinated by it, and
(07:27):
I wanted to apply my craft in a different scenario.
I felt like i'd sort of in a lot of
ways mastered that you can't ask that style of interview,
so I wanted to do that too. So there's personal
growth in it as well as the desire to create
something new and to also I suppose get out. Yeah,
like I said, before the show got stale or people
got sick of it, or they didn't want it anymore,
that you want to sort of not head out on top,
(07:49):
because that's not how I really think about it. But
head out while it's well, it's still good and fresh.
You are the master, though, at storytelling. I think you
can tell story worry very well. Even when people listening
to this now, they'll be like, you know, you tell
a story with a beginning, in the middle and an end,
and you don't leave out the detail. But people don't
get a chance to probably see when you're behind the
(08:11):
camera or maybe not even in this interview, is that
you're an incredible listener, and you're an incredible listener to detail,
and that is such a skill. Look, it's a weird
thing for me to be on this side talking as
much as I am, because my natural place is behind
the camera and listening. It's interesting you pull up on
the details. The details is what makes things trusting and
(08:34):
real and not cliche. And getting people to when I'm
interviewing people, asking questions, getting them to reflect on what
they've learned or how they've grown, or how it changed
them or what impact it had on them, getting to
sort of think past that second or third or fourth
level of how they might tell that story to someone
in their normal life, to get new revelations, to find
(08:54):
curiosity in the weirdness of stuff that to me, is
just the joy of it all. We're such a what
a nation of turning our nose up to things, to
finding problems with people, to disagreeing to not liking something
because it's so different from how we live as opposed
to looking at with the lens of what are you doing?
Why does that bring you joy? And how do I
get that? And what's so interesting about that? And let
(09:17):
me stand in your shoes for a little period of time.
That's the That's the beautiful thing about being able to
interview someone is that for a period of time, maybe
two hours. I've got this person who's going to sit
there and be open about their life, and I get
to stand in their shoes and understand it. It's so
good as opposed to how we might exist at a
pub where we're fighting for our chance to tell our
two cents, our little bit, how good we're going, what's
(09:38):
great for us. Sometimes I actually really struggle with that
when someone says, oh, how's this thing going, and I'm like, oh,
how how do I do it? That keeps their interests
so they don't sort of glaze over and move. You know,
we've all felt that in public interactions where you're trying,
in some ways entertain someone with your response so they
don't get bored of you, Whereas I feel like if
(10:00):
you're just curious, what that does is unlock someone and
then they will start telling all these things. And you know,
I can be interested almost anything.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
I think very few people get a chance to tell
their story without being interrupted. And if you can stay
quiet and you can be curious and you can be interested,
people will tell you anything. I think we all have
a yearning to want to hear have our story told,
and I think with this as well. I was a
little bit frightened because I flew in blind to watching
(10:28):
the episodes. I was like, oh wow, I know what
this is. I'm going to watch it. But I just
was scared about unpacking some of these things, like Port Arthur.
It's a very sensitive topic. A lot of people have
told their story in very different forms sixty minutes, et cetera,
but no one's ever unpacked it like we've seen and
what Australia will see in this first episode, you learn
(10:49):
way more than we've ever learned about what happened in
Port Arthur that day. Might I had to pick my
drawer off the floor because something like this that happened
so long ago. I've all of a sudden just given
a fist full of information about it, and I learned
so much in just a small period of time from
these people.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Oh thank you for saying so. Look, at the end
of the day, it's just a series of people talking
about what it's like to be in their shoes that
particular day. So we're not trying to You're not going
to come away from this episode knowing all the numbers,
the facts, the details that you can go and read
on Wikipedia later.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yeah, but you don't want that either. No, people have
still frightened by port Arthur.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
That's right. Get all those details elsewhere and you can
find out the sort of the wrap up of any
one of these moments in documentaries or in sixty minutes,
all that sort of stuff. But what you're going to
get from this show is like sitting down next to
someone at a dinner party or something and then finding
out that they had this experience and then saying them, go,
what did you see and what was that like? That's
sort of the premise behind that's the beginning point of
(11:48):
all these interviews. It's like imagining you're getting access to
someone who's gone through an extraordinary moment, and you get
to I got to just ask them what did you see,
what was it like, how did it impact you? And
what are you rem because part of this, too is
about memory and what sticks in your mind and what doesn't,
and none of that is right or wrong. It's fascinating.
(12:08):
You know, one of the participants in the portart episode,
she was the GP And some of this isn't really
included ultimately in the episode because we can only include
so much of each person, but one of the things
she often would say in the interview is I can't remember.
I can't remember blah blah blah. And to me, that
was fascinating. What details stick in your mind and when
they stick in their mind. For some of these people,
it's in minute, detailed, incredible detail, sounds and smells and
(12:33):
intricate stuff, and then there's other huge blanks that they
just can't remember it all, and that's how the mind works.
Then there's other stuff where people get details wrong. You know,
in one of the episodes, a gentleman, no, it doesn't
argue with me, but he's you know, he's telling me
this detail and they're through research. I knew that detail
is telling me was wrong. And I said to him, look,
I actually think it's this, And even in the interview
(12:54):
he wouldn't admit it. He would say it's this all
that for me. I found that very interesting, how details,
how they get forged in your memory. The other thing
I found interesting, here's multiple people hurt the same thing,
where they might be standing somewhat near each other, yet
their experience is vastly different how it impacts them. And
look the boxing n tsunami, for example, there's people just
(13:14):
talk about very broadly who've gone back to Thailand, who
have gone to the memorial see Thailand as almost like
a sacred place where someone's been lost, and they see
it as a very special place. Others haven't been swimming. Again,
here's two people who have seen the same thing from
the same angle, yet how it's impacted them is vastly different.
So what we're trying to say with this show is
(13:34):
that there's no right or wrong answer. That you and
I can stand next to each other and we can
experience it completely differently and we can both be correct
in a lot of ways. In twenty twenty four, we've
lost this idea that we can have different perspectives that
we can have different takes on something. It's like you're
right and you're wrong, but actually we can both be
(13:54):
right and we can compare notes, and there's all these
different reasons why something might affect you in different ways.
But there's this idea that Okay, well you're at Port Arthur,
everyone's traumatized. Well, actually that's not the truth. There's definitely
some people who are still very much traumatized by that
day and can't talk about it and don't want to
talk about it. There's others who definitely still feel trauma
(14:15):
and are triggered by it, but feel like they can
handle it when it comes up, and they wanted to
share their story even if it felt very sensitive. There
was others that felt like they could talk about it
very very openly. They've definitely come to terms that they've
moved on. There was a day in their life that happened,
but it isn't the defining day of their life. And
then there's sort of other things in between that depending
on what your role was, what you saw, depending on
(14:37):
your personality type and your character traits and the support
that you had, and all these other things that add
into it. There's not just this one blanket you're traumatized,
you're not traumatized. But that's sort of how we often
look at these sorts of things, don't.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
You think as well, Like we've all had trauma or grief.
We've all had these emotions, and we feel like we
can't share it, like there's something about it where we
bury it deep inside. But for most people, I feel
like it's sharing your story. It actually helps just sharing
your story. I remember, even on Saturday night, I unpacked
something that is terrible that had happened to me. It
(15:11):
was sixteen years ago when I lost my father, and
I felt embarrassed at the time while I was sharing
that story because someone was asking about it. But then
I woke up the next day and I felt like
this huge weight had been taken off me, and I
thought to myself, how long have I been walking around
with that?
Speaker 1 (15:29):
What you're saying is a massive truth that I think
a lot of us don't realize that through interviewing literally
thousands of people, what is respected is when people are honest, truthful,
they're authentic. They just say it how it is. They're
not trying to manipulate the story to sound better. They're
not trying to rehearse the story to the nth degree,
(15:49):
so it comes out perfectly. That just comes across as false,
It comes across as practiced, it comes across as manipulative.
We all think that we want to be these perfect
publics speakers, where we have these eloquent stories and we're
funny in this and that. But what really resonates is
when people are just honest. They're truthful. The people that
have appeared, you know, on YU can't as sad and
(16:11):
appear on this show. They own their story. They've come
to terms with it, even if they might struggle with
certain bits, they may not love all the certain bits
in some respects, they've accepted who they are and they're like,
this is me, take it all, leave it. That's why,
you know a lot of people would say to me, Oh,
but what's going to happen to these people when they
share all this honesty you know on TV. I'm just gonna
say they're going to get respected. That's what's going to happen.
(16:32):
People are going to look at them and go, my god,
I wish I had the courage of them, or I
really identify with that, or oh my god, I thought
you were so different, But in n aatural fact, now
I know the truth. I understand this. We're all yearning
to connect with truth, and we're not that different from
each other really. All these things, these labels, these traits
(16:52):
are just that's all they are, is labels. But underneath it,
we're so similar in so many ways. We want to
be loved, we want to feel connection. These people sharing
these things, it's only a positive. Some people aren't in
a situation to do it, they haven't necessarily feel like
they're too delicate or tender to necessarily share those things.
But if you've come to a place where you feel
like you can share it, feel like you can take
(17:13):
the risks, you've got the support around you, or whatever
it is to share it, it becomes, like you said,
a shared load. It doesn't become the elephant in the
room anymore. It becomes something that is just part of
who you are. It's not something that's hidden, it's just
the truth.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
One of the strange things that I've noticed about television,
and you know, people keep saying, oh, the death of television,
you know, death of free to wear too much reality.
And one of the things that I've noticed about people
when I have a conversation with them about why they're
not watching some of the big free toware networks anymore
is because they can't put their finger on it. They
really can't. But so much of television these days is
(17:49):
manipulated content to make it perfect. TV presenters that speak
perfectly in unison. It used to be very impressive. But
I actually think that that's kind of where the death
of television could come from, because an actual fact, people
have always watched television to see themselves. And the more
and more we see these word perfect TV presenters and
stories being put together. If it's unauthentic, if it's not real,
(18:13):
it doesn't matter how perfect it is, people have stopped watching.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You know, I suppose entertainment versus maybe something that has
a deeper impact in this place for entertainment. Don't get
me wrong of frivolous entertainment, but I suppose that's why
I like interviewing people outside of the cities. You know,
in the city and the bigger the city, people become
more media trained, maybe more times on their phone, they're
(18:37):
filming themselves, they're broadcasting themselves, and become more practiced at it.
Whereas the further you head away from the big major cities,
people are less that way, and so you just feel
like it's a bit more. You know, Here I am
take it or leave it, or if you get you know,
some of the older generations. I've lived in my skin
long enough. I don't give a shit anymore. Here I am.
I'm with you, like I like to see the imperfections,
(18:58):
the weirdness, the strains, the bits of people that haven't
been edited out to make them, to make them perfect.
That stuff doesn't feel I can't identify with that either.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
It's funny. I remember reading this thing. I was in
New York in two thousand and seven and I read
this thing. Meryl Street was being inducted into the Hall
of Fame at the Lincoln Center and there was an
interview in the brochure and someone the interviewer had said,
what's the connection between you and the audience? And she
said it was the way in which she studied the
small things that people do when people aren't watching. She
(19:31):
was like, that's the currency, because that's what people want
to see from me. They don't. I'm saying the lines,
and I could say the lines in a myriad of
different ways. But what people are actually watching and enjoying.
Is just those weird little things that we do every day.
That's what people are fascinated by. That's what they want
to see, That's what they've paid their money for.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
It's interesting you say that because when you interview someone
for a show. And I call one of the participants
the other day and I said, you know, because there
was a publication, was interested in interviewing her. This is
bridget from the port art episode The Chef. And I
said to her, I said, it's weird, you know, toying
you on the phone, because I suspent two hours with
you that one particular day last year. I said, but
(20:10):
I've sat with you in the edit sweet for weeks
and weeks and weeks, and I know every one of
your little movements and ways that you say things at
little quirks. And I said to her, I love the
way that you did this little thing, or this little
movement you did, or this funny little way that you
said it. And it becomes it's exactly right. You stop
in the edit suite necessarily loving the line they said,
(20:32):
but you love the way a funny little look they
give you. It's these it's these little tiny moments in
there that make that person endearing to you or you
love them for it. But if you could, if you
wrote it all down, if you watch the episode, no
one's going to really see those bits. I think they
unconsciously get into you. But when you sit with someone
for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks, you start
(20:53):
loving all those little bits. So I totally get what
Meryl Streep's saying there. She's sort of doing and reverse,
she's sort of almost sitting in a live edit sweet
and picking up those little intricacies of someone and then
bringing into a performance. And that's what makes someone real
as opposed to I suppose, like you said, Wooden, doing
doing lines how long?
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Because I know with you kin't ask that you only
had me there for an hour. I feel like you
probably thought I was.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
I think I had you there a bit longer than that.
I can I can find your old interview actually and
look at generally, and I got longer and longer as
we went through this. You can't ask that series generally,
I'd put aside two hours per person, and you can't
ask that. And maybe some time for some photos at
the end. You can ask that people were sort of
even eight people, and everyone got the same set of questions,
(21:38):
and in some respects, I gave them all the same
amount of time. Whereas in this show, because it's chronological,
it starts. It doesn't look not every episode starts there
was a day like any other. Some start in the
midst of the of the of the action. Some you
don't know. You know on boxing day, you know, you
hear these people these sliding door moments at the start
where they're saying, I was going to go here, but
(21:59):
I ended up going here. I ended up on Pepe
Island on this day because of this reason. So it's
like this ominous thing that's about to unfold. They all
have their different different ways in but essentially the show
is chronological. It starts sort of at the beginning of
the day. There's a clock that moves forward through the
day until the event finishes, say it the next day.
In this show, there's people who are there at the start,
(22:20):
there's people who get involved as the event unfolds, there's
people who get involved at the end. There's some people
there at the event all the way through. There's some
people who'd leave. And so it wasn't exactly the same
for every person, say Todd Russell and Brandt Webb who
were in the beacons Field Mine episode, well they're there
from the start to the end. They went to work
and they get caught in this mind collapse and then
(22:41):
they got rescued, and then we really hear from them
right up to the present day about how this thing's
still impacting them. Whereas someone in the local town she
got involved when she heard about it the next day,
and then her involvement's more about the rescuer. And so
depending on the boxing da tsunami, the journal too flew
in there. He'd been flying in till the day till
(23:03):
later in that day after the tsunami had happened, so
he gets involved halfway through the episode. So different people
get involved at different points of time, and so that
dictates how long I speak to them. So for the
big stories, you know, I spoke to some of those
people for a number of hours as well, you know,
because I needed to capture all the detail, the facts
as far as they saw it, and then I needed
to capture the you know, how it impacted them, then
(23:23):
how it impacted them over time, how it changed them.
So there was a series of things I needed to
get out of every single person, whereas if your involvement
was smaller, I might have spent less time with you,
but still I would have spent a good hour with
most people. At least. You know, we're not filming on
film these days, so I like to go down the
garden path, find out weird stuff, get the strange stuff
that maybe others wouldn't ask about. So I generally probably
(23:44):
would spend between an hour and two and a half
hours with each of the people on the show.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
And that does it take, like you twelve months to
edit this, because I mean, the editing is so brilliant,
and obviously you've probably mastered a little bit of that
from doing you can't ask that, But the editing in
this it's just so like the clock ticking.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
The edit was challenging. We took all our learnings of
you can't ask that in the way that we intercut
people's stories, but because we didn't have eight stories to
lean on at once, at times it was only a
handful of people because of the nature of people going
in and out of the story at that period of time,
because we don't have a narrator or we don't have
(24:22):
me asking questions or we don't have soupers, or we
don't have text on screen, you know, summing it up
or anything like that. We need to get it in
the interview, and we need to be able to edit.
Between say you and me speaking, we need I need
to say something that links to you and vice versa.
So unless I've got that in the edit, it's very
difficult to tell that person's story and all these sorts
(24:43):
of things. So that was challenging. Plus working with archive
was challenging, and giving the facts but giving the emotions
at the same time. We didn't want to get too
bogged down, which is facts the whole time, but you
also need to understand the facts so you could feel
the emotion. And then giving the respect to all of
these different people that have that are given their time
and given us their honesty about the day. You want
to make sure you represent their story and their take
(25:05):
really really well. And thirty minutes isn't a long time
to tell all these different people's takes, and some of
these stories are really really big. So like I said before,
we can't tell every aspect of these days. We can't
tell all the facts. Actually, that's not what the aim is.
The aim is to try and give you a sense
of what it was like to be there, the emotion
of it, the feelings of it, and the feelings and
the emotions of all these different people, and then harmoniously
(25:27):
cut their stories together so you feel like you get
it and you understand it. So yeah, the edit was challenging,
but the whole project we probably started in August last
year and it's going to wear now, so it probably
took a bit six weeks longer than maybe what it
would take to make You cun't ask that, But again,
we're making something new, and I think that if we've
got to do it a second time, we've learned a
million things that we could take into production second time around.
(25:49):
It was a fun challenge. I didn't never hate it
going to work.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I think you need to go and buy a new
suit because I think you're going to get a lot
of awards for this show. I prepare yourself for that
because it is groundbreaking, has leveled up from what you've
done before. You should be so proud of this work.
It's extraordinary. Well that's good to hear.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
And look, our aim is, obviously, is never to be
awarded for the work. What you want for me anyway,
What I want is to people to talk about it
to be something they reflect on, they reflect on their
own life, that they consider their own life differently, that
they can sit other people's lives differently, that they ask
questions of themselves. You know, that's what you want out
of That's what I want out of the content, is
(26:30):
for people to see it and think about it and
discuss it and feel the emotions of this stuff. Something
really nice that we've done too off the back of
this series, and I would have loved to have done
this on you can't ask that, but we just just
didn't think of it at the time, is that we've
taken you know, and this is another way to get
into someone's world in a way that it's almost really
impossible to do on the TV show, is that we've
(26:51):
got this sort of companion podcast too, where we're we're
taking one story from the series and you get to
hear their story in more detail. So that longer interview
I was telling you about before that two hours or
whatever it is, say, with the sniper at Port Arthur,
we've taken that and you know, we've trimmed it down
and we've added music and it's become its own story
in its own right. But you get to hear in
intimate detail more of one particular person's story. So six
(27:16):
episode Podcast two where each episode we focus on one
person from the show and you get to hear their
story in detail. So all these things, it's about trying
to create an experience for the for the audience where
they get to learn and think about their life differently.
So that's really ultimately the aim of this stuff that
we make. So but yes, thank you for being a supporter.
I appreciate it for saying of those nice things.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yes, no, that that's fine, lovely, it's lovely to hear.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's better than you're saying. You know, it was a
yawn fest.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
No, my god, I just can't wait to keep watching it.
I have to leave this. But what is something just
something from behind the scenes, Like, what's something that because
I end the podcast with the same question for everybody,
whether you're on survivor whether on Dancing with the Stars,
it doesn't matter what it is. What is something from
behind the scenes that we won't as an audience get
a chance to see. Kind of like a funny anecdote, let.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Me just say this and then if I can think
of something funny, I will. I think what people don't
know about how we make this stuff is that we
film people from all the different episodes, back to back
to back to back, wherever they happen to be. So
I won't just film Port Arthur in one go, or
I won't just film the Boxing Asunami one go. We'll
go to a location where those people live and will
I'll interview person from Port Arthur, the person from Boxing
(28:24):
A Tsunami, a person from Warmra, back to back to back.
So what's incredible about that is it keeps me fresh,
it keeps me interested. But what's fascinating is all these
people come in. They've had these extraordinary moments, and a
lot of them are very unsure about whether their story
is worth listening to, and in some respects need to
be reminded or convinced, Hey, we're interested, That's why we've
(28:46):
got you here. This stuff is fascinating, and it's this
sort of this humble way in which people go about
their lives, even if they've had something quite extraordinary happen
to them. They think, am I worth listening to? Am
I worth hearing? And so I think that people might find,
and that's surprising that these people that you see in
the show, they're not rehearsed speakers. They've often haven't spoken
(29:06):
about these things before or in great detail or in
the detail they're about to share with me, and some
of them think is my story even worth hearing? So
when you see them in the finished product, they come
across as incredibly confident, articulate, and you know, that's how
we cut it, not that they don't speak that way
in person, but a lot of people come to that
set that day very nervous thinking am I worth being
(29:28):
listened to? Am I going to do a good job?
And shit, is this even a good idea? So I
think that that's probably one of the things that people
maybe find most surprising about the people who appear in
our show is that they're just ordinary like us.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Absolutely, or you could be like me when I did
you can ask that. And I bought a coffee from
the coffee shop next to where we were filming, and
then I just ranted at you for like an hour
and a half or however long it was, and then
walked out of the room and you somehow manage to
pull it together. You know, it's really funny. And I'll
finish on this because it's quite hilarious. More people stop
me now for you can't ask that than big brother.
(30:05):
But for some reason, whatever you did to me on
that show made me likable.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Do people like you off the back of you can't
ask that.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
They loved it?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And I shot myself for a full nine months after
shooting it because I was like, was I a weirdo?
Did I say the worst things? What are they going
to do with all that footage?
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
My god? You know? And I did worry was what
I said true?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You know? We wanted people. We wanted people to like
the people on our show. That was really important to
us because we like them. Do you What's a funny
thing just just talking about doing this these long interviews
with people, is that when you give your attention to
someone and they suddenly feel comfortable your presence and then
they sort of turn off all these all these these
fears about how am I going to be seen, and
(30:45):
they just talk like a normal person and they just
become completely involved in themselves, in their own story. They
completely forget about you that you're even there asking these
questions that they're on TV that they're being filmed, it
just becomes very very very very natural. So much so
it's it's it's not uncommon for people like I remember
interviewing a gentleman from Adult Virgins episode and I spent
(31:06):
two hours quizzing about being an adult virgin and all
the ins and outs of that lifestyle and the choices
he'd made and all that sort of stuff. It was
like a pretty intimate couple of hours with this fellow,
you know. I felt like we got a photo after
and it was quite an amazing conversation. I saw that
person the next day in the street and I walked
up to them, say, Hey, how are you blah blah blah.
(31:27):
They just completely blank me. They had no idea who
I was. I was like, God, how bizarre, Like I
just spent all this time with this person. You know,
of course I could remember. It was fascinating time for me.
But it's sort of an interesting reminder that, you know,
being the interviewer in these moments is not about me.
I'm not there to be liked. I'm not there to
make friends with this person. I'm there to understand this person,
and if I can create an environment where they feel
(31:49):
very comfortable just to be themselves in talk and almost
in a way, completely forget where they are. I ultimately
saw that as a compliment that they didn't me. I
was like, Wow, what a fascinating sort off election on
that experience, that they should sit there and just talk
about themselves and get completely wrapped up in it and
everything else is sort of forgotten.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
It's a good way to look at it now. I
don't feel so bad that I've interviewed Julie Goodwin three
times and this morning she didn't remember who I was
or that she did the podcast before. I was like, Julie,
you've been on the podcast three times. She was like,
oh have I? And I was like, I must be
so invisible.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
You know, I'm just I annoyed. I haven't really come
up with a funny anecdote for you for this show.
How about if I asked you this way, what's the
secret that you'd want to know that? Because you know,
as sometimes you don't realize it's a secret, because it's
just it's just what you do.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I think that's stuff that's the secret behind this that
I was kind of expecting you to say was just
something that you had to didn't make the final cut
something that someone had said that you were like, I
really want to put this in, but it doesn't belong.
That's what I kind of thought you were going to say.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
We do. Definitely, we definitely have bits that we don't
include because they didn't belong because it was sort of
outside the realm of the day. For example, the sniper,
the sniper on the Port Arthur episode was a fascinating gentleman,
and he told me all these contingencies that they had planned.
Because we briefly give a nod to this in the episode,
(33:11):
but the government was talking from the old portable phone
that you have your home phone, but it was a
portable phone that had a battery and it could run
out of power. That's how they were communicating. The hostage
negotiator was communicating through this portable phone. What they didn't
realize that that phone was running out of batteries, and
when the phone rount of batteries, they had no more
communication to this guy. So then this is in the
(33:34):
evening and there's still this siege going on, and so
they're talking about how the hell do we begin contact again.
So they're tossing up all these different ideas and One
of them was they were going to get a tank
and drive a tank up to the front door with
a new phone in it and pass. They couldn't get
a tank down to Port Arthur. So then they started
looking around. This is like on a Sunday night, nine
(33:55):
ninety six, and they started looking for around for like
a military museum of some kind where someone might have
like a backyard. I've got my own military a few
vehicles or something in my own house to see they
could get like a vintage World War two tank or
something like that that they could well, they couldn't make
that happen. So they're discussing, what if we fly across
an F eighteen right over the top and create a
(34:16):
sonic boom, and in this sonic boom, we drive up
a car and this distraction is going to happen and
we throw this phone out. These are sorts of things
they were discussing. Wow, try and solve this sort of
problem anyway. Some of that stuff just doesn't make it
because it's sort of like it's not it's not part
of that the main thrust of the story. But I
was sitting there with my you know, to use the
(34:37):
saying you were saying before my jaw to the floor,
going oh my god, this is just some of some
of the things they contemplated.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
So you know that that's the weird thing. It's like,
goes back to what you were saying earlier. You know,
there's all these facts that you can look up about
Port Arthur. No one wants to read all of those facts,
you know what I mean, Like, what people want to
know is the really weird things that humans do. That
stuff is what people want to know. It's fascinating because
it also it makes it feel more real.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It's not a Hollywood thing where it's all perfectly neat
put out blah blah blah. You know, it's strange, you know.
I think that's the overarching thing of all these things.
It's strange and weird in all the ways that you
could never write if you were if you were doing
it yourself. So absolutely, Look, it's lovely talking about it
after making it for however long. So it's nice to
(35:24):
be in this process and getting it out to the world.
And it's a weird work. You know, if you think
about this what we do. Not many other people after
they've worked on a project for twelve months ago it's broadcast,
it's the world, and get feedback on it. But it's
a good thing and a bad thing, and I'm hoping
it's received well.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
I'm going to send you a list of now ideas
for season two.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
They're going to make you, please, please please.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
If you get a trip the in between, there go somewhere.
Sonny editing room is quite a cute space. Thank you,
look after yourself. Thank you so much. Lovely talking to you,
lovely chatting to you. Amazing
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