A Picture Paints — with Jake Fern

Jake Fern tells Charles Malet about his journey from Marxist cult to resistance portraitist, and he introduces ‘A Thousand Words’.Write-up with links: https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/a-picture-paints-with-jake-fern

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Welcome to UK column. I'm Charles Mallett.
Now Jake Fern. There is, I would say, an
enormous gulf between being artistic and being an artist.
What was it, to the best of yourrecollection, that pushed you
into the latter category and made you decide that you were

(00:30):
going to make a go of it as an artist?
You mean a professional like as a profession rather than just
doing stuff? Well, it was actually COVID.
Exactly. So yeah.
Yeah, it was, it was COVID really, because it's the gift
that keeps on giving because wasit five years ago or more we got

(00:53):
that bounce back loan. I lost my job that I was, I was,
I was doing Photoshop retouchingfor a drinks company and that
that all dried up and then had six months of bounce back loan
to live on and had some paints in the loft And I started
painting and, and then started selling pretty quick.

(01:15):
I mean, I've painted all my life, but that was the push to
to really turn professional, if that's if that's the right word.
I think, I think it's absolutelythe right word.
I mean both in in terms of the discipline, but also the way in
which people who are familiar with your art would, would
regard it. But so going back, therefore, I

(01:37):
mean in what way had you paintedthroughout life it was purely
recreationally or or was there more?
To it, no. I'd had, I'd had the studio, I'd
sold some, I'd sold some paintings for Greetings card
Company. So I was doing still life and
I'd done some portraits, one which I was really pleased with.

(01:58):
And then I, and then I couldn't afford to keep the studio, so I
lost the studio. And then and then I had a child
and then we had a house and thenI had nowhere to paint.
And oil paints are very smelly and which is why I started doing
watercolours when I during lockdown, I had some
watercolours and I started painting with those.
And that's incredibly hard, painting portraits in
watercolours because you can't make a mistake.

(02:20):
Oil paints are much more forgiving.
But yeah, I've painted all my life.
I've constantly doodling whenever I get my wife tells me
off because I just scribble overeverything, even on the notes
that I've made here this just random scribbles.
I met a forger, a local forger who who a lot of people might

(02:44):
have heard of. His name is David Henty.
And it turned out we have quite a lot in common about how we see
the world. And we were doing some work
together, all above board, all legal, but we were doing some
copies. We call them master copies
rather than forgeries. And that's just when you, you

(03:07):
know you, you're copying well known works of art.
And we were, we were doing some Harlem Millers.
And he's a, he's an artist who uses a lot of text in his work.
And, and we thought, well, let'sdo our own kind of take on it,

(03:28):
talking about what's going on. And so that became The Righteous
Brothers. And it's this kind of thing
where where you've got is like abook cover and it's a bit of
Katie Joe there in the background.
And, and then, and then about a year.
So we we started doing that. And then about a year ago, my

(03:49):
wife had the great idea to do the 1000 Words podcast.
So we were trying to work out where else I could take it.
And she said, well, you love doing portrait demos online.
I'd done some time lapses and, and some demos and you loved
talking to people about what's going on in the world.

(04:10):
So why don't you combine the 2? So within a couple of weeks we'd
done our first one and we just did it on a few camera phones
and that went out and that that was received quite well.
And then some people got involved to help with the
technical aspect and it and it sort of went another level.

(04:33):
And hopefully now that's coming over to UK column in September.
Yeah, about which we are very excited and we will come back to
that later. I want to push you more on the
on the sort of the origins in the background, because I think
I think where you've got to is, is so fascinating and so
compelling. But you're perspective as it

(04:54):
were, as a, you know, obviously somebody who has considerable
artistic talent and then has converted that into a
professional opportunity, let's say.
But just to go back, were you were you sort of formally
trained or have you self taught or how have you got to where you

(05:14):
have stylistically? Well, I went to, I did a
foundation course in Birmingham.That's where I grew up and, and
that was more of a traditional old school training.
We did a year and then I, and then I plumped for then and I
thought, OK, well I'll go to, I'll go to uni and, and do fine

(05:36):
art. And I, I knew Brighton because
my aunt lived here, lives here. And so I knew it well.
And I plumped for Brighton and Ididn't really look at the
course, but it turned out the course was a conceptual art
course, video installation, text, graphic film, all this

(05:59):
kind of thing. I thought it sounded quite
interesting at the time. I didn't realise that I wouldn't
pick up a paintbrush for the next three years at the time and
I didn't realise I was going to be indoctrinated into a, a
Marxist cult either at the time.So, so I was and I didn't.

(06:22):
And, and it wasn't until the endof that course that I kind of
had a bit of a, a bit of a breakdown.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, at the time, it seemed, but
fortunately, I, I was, I was given a copy of David Icke's The

(06:42):
Truth Will Set You Free. That was going back 25 years or
so. And I read it just before I
graduated, just before I did my dissertation.
And it completely changed my worldview, obviously, but I
didn't have the foundation to deal with what I was taking on

(07:06):
board. And I think this is where a lot
of people struggle, you know, maybe not so much now in the
last five years. There's more of a community,
more, more support for people. But especially back then, I
think when people were exposed to some of the, the alternative
theories and the truths about what's going on in the world, I

(07:27):
think it was quite hard for themto really contextualise it, you
know, And yeah, I, I, I mean, having said that, I, I think I
was, I was ripe for some kind ofbreakdown because I think I'd
had so much conditioning and, and I, there was part of me that
felt I, I think, I think in my soul I was ready to, for

(07:51):
something to crack. But it was, you know, tougher
than it needed to be, put it that way.
Maybe and, and, and then I did my dissertation and then started
to see through everything that I've been involved with for the
last three years. And now obviously I see further

(08:12):
education and the whole agenda. You know, I remember the first
as, as as part of, as part of the agenda.
I remember going to an art history lesson and being
introduced to the tutor. And he was, he was introduced as
a Marxist, an art, a Marxist arthistorian, you know, And I was

(08:36):
like, oh, hang on. I, you know, I knew enough about
Mark's nose. Sort of some like that was a
financial, that was a political thing.
And I was like, OK, I don't really get what's Mark's got to
do with painting or fine art, you know?
And of course I was, I, I thought, well, I hadn't found
the strength or I hadn't been trained to really question

(08:58):
things at that point properly. So I kind of accepted it.
And I, I suppose part of me wanted to be accepted and I went
along with it and I, and I, I bought into the whole BS
basically of, of, of that world,you know, deconstructionism,
these, do you know all that? The whole, the whole, a lot of

(09:22):
those terms, I'm not even interested.
They've just gone out of my vocabulary because they were
just so, so alien to how I see the world now.
You know, everything that we learnt then was about detachment
and separation and, and godlessness and, and lack of
spirit and over analysis. And, you know, I, I, I think,

(09:45):
you know, at the time people were dropping out of the course
because they couldn't handle it.And, and a few of us who were
sort of the successful ones, kind of, you know, thought, oh,
they, they just can't hack it. But looking back now, they were
the, they were the sensible onesor they were the ones who were
in touch. They could see that it was BS,
you know, and they, they didn't want to learn this crazy

(10:08):
language, this, this, you know, up its own arse language, which
was just about keeping this ballrolling of, of, of professorship
going into curator, you know, curating the next show.
And it's, it's in a very similarway to every other discipline,
whether it's medicine, politics or whatever, you know, it's

(10:32):
there's this status quo that just keeps, it's an, it's an old
boys club. Well, it was an old boys club.
Now it's, you know, incorporatesevery other but you know, it's
essentially the same, the same structure, you know.
So, so I left, I left uni and and didn't, didn't paint for a

(10:58):
long time. And then, yeah, as I say, it was
COVID that really got me back ontrack.
It's so interesting, you know, what you say about that stage of
life. Artists are given, for the most
part, a reputation of sort of non conformity and

(11:21):
unconventionalism and and those sorts of things.
But you're in a sense describingexactly the opposite, by being
drawn into, deliberately drawn into, or pushed into being part
of what you described as a Marxist cult.
With that in mind, do you, well,did you at the time or do you
now look back and see that therewas a particular direction

(11:43):
following the course that you were supposed to be pushed in to
do such and such a thing? Yeah, I know it well.
You can see it reflected in, in like say in, in pretty much
every other discipline. And I think there's definitely a
direction. People are definitely pushed in
a, in a certain direction, but it but it, but it's reflected

(12:04):
in, in, in most disciplines, I think.
And that, and that is a, it's, it's all those things.
Like I said, it's a detachment from spirit.
It's it's a, it's a very left brain kind of approach that that

(12:27):
is imposed upon even the creative arts.
So I think you can, you can see that culturally that there's a,
there's a real power in art and music and, and any kind of
creativity literature. And I think the force that

(12:49):
wishes to control. That's a very great way of
putting it, but that's how I feel most comfortable saying it.
I don't like to say they, but the, the force that that seeks
to control will seek to control that powerful force of, of
creativity in the same way that it seeks to control the passion

(13:11):
in, in say, the environmental movement or, or, you know, any
other, the hippie movement or, you know, all these things tend
to, they tend to have power because they are a natural
expression of our human desires and, and will and, and, and

(13:32):
what, what we tend to do. Even with that, you know, I
don't like to necessarily externalise it and talk about
them and they, but even within our own relationships, you know,
we, we, we can, we can seek to control and tame this kind of
energy. And, and I think that's what's
happening on the, on the, on thebig scale, on a big picture.

(13:54):
So I think definitely art, music, literature, film, of
course they, they, you know, they're going to be susceptible
to, to the control mechanisms. Very much so, yeah.
I think, I think they, they absolutely are.
I mean, thinking back to people that you were alongside at that
point, either physically becausethey were on your course, or

(14:17):
people who were embarking on careers as, as artists.
Now, do you, do you see that there's a that there's a
pattern, a sort of response to what it is that you went through
and that they are, you know, predominantly aligned in one
way? I mean, how do you perceive that
generation of, of artists? Yeah.

(14:37):
I think there's different levels, so I know there's one.
One guy who did well in the course became a curator in in
Birmingham of Midland Art Centre, I think.
And then, you know, no doubt, nodoubt ticks all the boxes.
And you know, any, anything agenda driven just just is given
the green light. And then there's different,

(15:00):
there's different levels of that, you know, friends who are
successful to create or a lesserdegree, even just the culture of
creativity is, is it's so easilyto pull people.
It's so easy to pull people intothat the kind of woke mindset
because it because traditionally, like you said,

(15:22):
we, we, you know, the create, the creative people are the ones
who generally are non conformistand and willing to question the
status quo. So over the last 4050, sixty
years, they've they've been the liberals.
You know, most, most of my friends came from the liberal
background. You know, they would think of
themselves as liberals or left wing, you know, certainly not

(15:46):
right wing. I mean, all those terms are
absurd anyway. But but you know, that's their,
that that's a construct which weget sucked into.
And, you know, so I think a lot of artists really struggle
because that, that, that cultureis really thick.
It's really tight. And then of course, you've got
funding. So like, like all of these,
whether it's medicine, you know,as I said, all, all these

(16:09):
disciplines, they all rely on funding, you know, because we
haven't got, we haven't got muchof AA.
We haven't got much of A organicculture of, of expression.
You know, we all rely on, on, onsome form of, of media, you
know, and whether it's a gallery, even just get putting

(16:32):
on a show in a gallery or getting, getting access to, you
know, television or, or, you know, some of the big shows in
London, whatever it is, there's we kind of rely on funding.
And, you know, we know how strict the, the guidelines are
when it comes to ticking boxes for, for applying for funding,

(16:54):
you know, especially from the councils.
And so that sort of keeps peoplein check.
And then you just get this, this, you know, mediocre kind of
safe, unquestioning, generally kind of woke mindset being

(17:15):
pushed in in most in most of thearts I think at the moment.
Yeah, I think that's that's absolutely observable, I suppose
from the broader media, media context, really the conditioning
of a particular situation via funding or its restriction is,
is in effect a form of censorship.

(17:37):
But do you see that as being understood in those terms by
people that are sort of outside of your sphere?
Or do people seem to think that it's it's fine that that's how
it? Should work.
I think it's just part of the part of the unquestioning
mindset that just people go along with it and it's not even,

(17:59):
you know, that might be, might be changing slightly, I don't
know. So we've just, we've just been
picked up by a gallery in, in Rye, wash house and parlour.
Wendy is amazing. And, and we've, we had a couple
of attempts to show our work, not the portraitship, but the,

(18:19):
the more sort of political work,The Righteous Brothers work.
And we knew, as we knew as it, people liked it because we, we
sell cards and small posters at some of the events, some of the,
the kind of await events, the festivals and things.
And, and people loved it. You know, I, I knew we were onto
something because they're, they're very easy.

(18:43):
They look good as posters, you know, and they're very sort of
graphic and that, you know, they're easy, they're easy to
market. And that we had a couple of we
had a couple of opportunities, but they fell through because I
think basically they pulled out last minute when they realised,
when they looked more at what wewere saying, you know, and where

(19:03):
we were coming from. And so, and eventually recently
we Wendy came along and she's, she's really, she's really into
it, she's really keen and she's pushing it.
And so this is very like middle class gallery in in Rye with
these huge, huge paintings with follow the science and and

(19:25):
pictures of, you know, Gates andEpstein and you know, and, and
just stop being useful idiots, you know, and the the kind of
splashed with orange paint, likethe just stop oil, you know,
and, and people are walking and she's so far the feedback's been

(19:46):
amazing, like just amazing. She's and all walks of life, as
we know from you know, we see atthe festivals, don't we, you
know, and the marches and it's right through from, you know, ex
cons to Oxbridge graduates, you know, and every race sexuality
and you know, that is the truth of movement.

(20:07):
And you know, people are loving it.
And so there is there is a market there.
I've sort of lost the thread of the original question, but.
What was it? Well.
No, but this is this is great. This is, this is such an
interesting theme because the this is absolutely the other
side of the the same coin in so far as art in any form may be

(20:33):
used as a weapon of propaganda, but equally it may be used as a
weapon of resistance. And people have to look quite
hard sometimes to tell the difference.
So the, the right, because obviously you started off you,
you mentioned The Righteous Brothers.
I, I'd just like to go into moredetail on that.
And exactly with you're going back to your conversations with
David Henty and, you know, how did you come up with that

(20:55):
concept? Like literally right from the
start. And what would be all the sort
of initial ideas? How did you develop?
Because you talk about it. I mean, I don't mean this
critically, but you talk about it in some rather blase fashion
as they, you know, it's no big deal.
It's just happened, but it is a big deal because look, look
where you are. You know, you've got it into
galleries, you've had a massive impact with it.
But just just go back a bit and describe how you worked up to

(21:19):
that point and how people started reacting and that sort
of thing. Yeah.
So as I said, we were, we were working on master copies and you
get pretty good when you do quite a few.
So there's a guy called Harlan Miller and he's he, he's a very

(21:39):
successful artist. But and he, you know, he, he's
not, he's not so woke. He's, you know, he's, he does
some interesting it, it basically people might recognise
them as a big Penguin book covers.
And then he'll, he'll, he'll throw in some title, which kind
of, you know, humorous or, or, or dark or, you know, obscene.

(22:08):
And we were doing a lot of those.
And then there's a, there's another couple of artists, what
they called the something. They were, they were called the
something brothers. I can't remember their name
there. And we're just, we're immersed
in, in copying. And then obviously when you get
good at copying something, you think, well, for me, when I'm

(22:29):
doing it, I'm just thinking, oh,I could do this like this.
And then it'd be so much better if we'd like, we'd actually be
saying something, you know, or, or I could bring in my, my
portraiture into it and sort of combine the two.
And just, and, and we, we got, we just got quite excited

(22:49):
talking about it and was like, well, let's do something.
And we started, we started, we started out doing some which
were taking the piss out of the,the art world really.
So we did a big one of Harlan Miller and imitation is the
highest paid form of flattery orsomething like that.
And we just mocked, you know, wedid a complete RIP off of one of

(23:10):
his paintings, you know, with a different title.
And it just sort of gets you creative juices flying.
And then, and then we hit on thesort of standard format, which
is this kind of book cover. I found an old book cover online
and the book was called The Car Thief and we'd been talking

(23:32):
about doing one with Sadiq Khan and, and there it was the car
Thief with this guy. Maybe on the podcast we can show
some stills of some of the paints.
And there he was, this guy in kind of this 70s pulp, pulp
fictiony book cover leaning on the park on the metre parking

(23:56):
metre in his 70s gear. And we just swapped the face
around to Sadiq Khan's face, youknow, and it's just the car
thief. And it was all there.
It was done, you know, and then we just used that format for all
the others. So it's a, it's a, it's a
slightly strange format because it's not like you haven't got

(24:16):
free reign. You, you're quite fixed.
So you've got this book cover, you've got a title, you've got a
subtitle, you've got a, a review, a fictional review from,
you know, some fictional newspaper.
And then you've got this image. And so you're trying to say as
much as you can within those parameters.
And it, it seems like it works really well.

(24:39):
And we're fortunate because we were making money doing the
master copies that we could afford to get a whole chunk of
big canvases, you know, 7 foot canvases because they're not
cheap. And then we had time, you know,
I had time to, to, to paint them, you know, so, and then

(25:00):
they were sitting there for about a year.
And like I say, we had two failed attempts at showing them
until, you know, until really recently where they've really,
it's really taken off so. And in actual fact, by happy
coincidence, I do have the car thief right here, which I'm just

(25:21):
holding up to the screen. And and I think what's great is
you, yeah, that like you say, the the bit at the top,
describing it as a gripping account of London's most
notorious Hwy robber. And there is indeed Sadiq Khan
leaning on the leaning on the parking metre.

(25:42):
But but, you know, this is yeah,go on.
Well, I say it's quite nice because you know, we might have
within the, within the movement,you know, there's various forms
of, of, of of how well there's various levels and depths to
which people go and rabbit holesand all kinds of stuff.
You know, everything's a sigh up.

(26:06):
You know, not everything's a sigh up.
Everything's controlled, not controlled.
You know, all the, all these debates go on within the within
the community and we try and pitch this as something that
that will speak to perhaps that that kind of middle ground where

(26:27):
people are questioning, but perhaps on shore, they perhaps
they haven't deep dived. And I think that's the strength
of it. At the same time, we don't want
to compromise the message. You know, I don't say anything
which I don't believe in, but I think it's important.

(26:52):
I think it's important to reach people where they're at.
Sorry, go on. Yeah.
But but it's it is wonderful in a way.
And I would compare this with perhaps what UK column is able
to do either through a screen orin person.
Art has that magic about it in that you are able to access

(27:16):
people in a sense much more easily because they only have to
look at it. They don't have to approach a
person and engage in conversation.
It's there. They look at it and in as far as
we can tell, no one, no one knows what's going on in their
head when they're responding to it.
And in in some senses, that doesgive an extra dimension to you.

(27:39):
So. But with that in mind, I mean,
have you had either directly or indirectly feedback suggesting
that the effect here has been felt by people who are not
necessarily already sort of where you might be with your
world view? Yeah.
Definitely. Yeah, definitely.

(27:59):
I mean, so I spent a day at the gallery and.
Right. And people are coming in and,
and you, yeah, I, I mean, I lovespeaking with people, as you
probably do, you know, with the UK column.
You know, when you, when you, when you're at the festivals,
you know, you're just inundated,aren't you?

(28:19):
And you've got such a loyal kindof audience.
But yeah, we had a great day just just sitting there watching
people come in and then talking to people.
And it's a whole range. You know, sometimes people say
things and you're not agreeing with them, but you want to
connect with them on the, you know, in whatever way you can.

(28:40):
And it it wouldn't be right at that point to necessarily expose
my true the depths of my my World Vision, you know, because,
because it, you know, you can get into real details and and,
you know, sometimes that isn't necessary.
But what, what I think is for me, I think things are going to

(29:04):
change primarily not when enoughpeople have woken up.
And I don't really like that term so much, but it's, you
know, it'll do us shorthand. But it, it's not so much that
we're waiting for so many peopleto see through the illusion and,
and, and see recognised as an agenda.
I think more importantly is things will change when enough

(29:26):
people begin to articulate it and that are are feel confident,
confident and comfortable enoughto say things that maybe four or
five years ago might have led tothem being ostracised from their
peer group. And, you know, we're all in that

(29:48):
situation. Those of us who are lucky enough
to to to go to festivals and have meet up groups and stand in
the park, we're sort of getting there to that point where we can
speak, speak our minds freely and be who we truly are.
I think there's a huge number ofpeople who could be what, I

(30:09):
don't know, twenty, 2530% maybe the population who are having
thoughts and questioning what's going on, but they're still
stuck in in a position where they don't feel comfortable,
confident, comfortable articulating it in a general
environment. Say they're at work or, you

(30:29):
know, they're in the canteen andsomeone says something.
And, and I think once they startdoing that, things will change.
And I think that's where The Righteous Brothers come in.
So that's, that's it's, it's, it's saying to people, yeah, we
can talk about this like we don't have to necessarily agree
on everything, but something's going on that isn't talked about

(30:53):
in the mainstream. And if you can do that in a sort
of fun way, in an artistic way, in a way that people, you know,
like the the posters and the prints people could have on
their wall and the, you know, and the people come to their
home and they see them. They don't have to say, stand
there and say, oh, I think 911 was an inside job, you know, or,

(31:15):
or I think COVID was a scam. You know, they just have this
poster and it just hints at something, you know, and it
sparks conversation. And I think all these tools, a,
a good, you know, they're all, they're all pushing us in the
right direction towards essentially just freedom really.
That's, that's where we're heading, isn't it?

(31:36):
Freedom. Freedom of expression primarily.
Absolutely. And and you know, like I say
with with art, I think the greatgift is that it is in a well, it
should really be in a non confrontational manner because
it's there. It's up to the person to react
to that as opposed to tripping up perhaps by engaging in direct

(32:00):
dialogue that might not be associated with something that
is to one side. So yeah, I mean, that is
amazing. And you're quite right to point
out that the necessity for face to face communications and just
being able to talk about things that people aren't going to be
provoked into some sort of reaction against immediately,

(32:22):
you know, like you say, just lightening the mood and making
things accessible and easily easy to talk about.
So with, with that in mind, it'sobviously the, you know, what I
want to get onto is, is what thebulk of your work.
But with that in mind, do you think that subconsciously or
even consciously is that? Is that why you've been drawn to
portraiture specifically? Because of that direct

(32:45):
connection with the sitter? But both through painting and
through talking. Yeah, I just, I just, I think
I've always just found people fascinating.
So I think, I think, and I thinkalways like a challenge as well,
because portraiture is definitely the hardest type of

(33:06):
painting. You know, you can get a
landscape a bit wrong and it, itdoesn't matter, you know, you
put a tree in the wrong place orwhatever.
If you're doing a face. We're so we're so attuned to
looking at each other's faces closely and determining if the
other person's healthy or judging us or, you know, all

(33:28):
these things, multiple thoughts that we go through when we, when
we look at a face. So to, to, to make that
convincing in the painting is, is definitely the hardest form
of art. So I, I've always enjoyed that
challenge. But also, yeah, like you say, I
just, I, I, I just, I'm fascinated by people, you know,

(33:50):
I just, I just love people and Ilove people, you know, I love, I
love, I love people even when I'm disagreeing with them, you
know, And, you know, sometimes that's a hard, that's a test,
you know. But yeah, I think, I think
portraiture and then and combining that with the, with

(34:12):
the political kind of messages has been really satisfying,
actually. Yeah.
And and and then finding the, the 1000 words outlet as well
has, has been brilliant, you know.
You know, for the, you know, this is obviously where we must
go into great detail because as you say, 1000 words podcast for

(34:33):
those that either do know what it is or don't is going to be
coming to UK column in the near future about which we're very
excited. But just before we get into that
sort of specifically, you know, so going back to 2020, got your
kit out again, started to get back into it.
Obviously you've painted many, many portraits in that time.

(34:54):
What what was the, what was the kernel of the idea for the 1000
words podcast? How did that come into sort of?
Conceptual. Reality.
I'd, I'd actually splashed out and I never do this.
I, I'd splashed out on a kind ofmentorship programme.

(35:15):
And I've always been really cynical of these things, you
know, like, and in a, in a way, perhaps just the very act of
committing to something and, andsplashing out focuses you in a
way that perhaps I hadn't been focused before.
And one of the one of the takeaways was a a worksheet

(35:38):
where you'd you'd write. It was nicely phrased.
It was, it was what can you, what can you offer the world?
Not, not what do you want to be or where do you want to be in
five years or what do you want to get?
Whatever it was, what can you offer?
What do you want to give? And I was scribbled a few things
and I was sitting in bed and I was looking at it.
And then Vicky came to bed and said, oh, can I have a look at

(36:02):
what you're doing? I said, yeah, I'm doing this
worksheet. She said, oh, I could write down
a couple of things, but or, or I'll just tell you because I
don't want to scribble all over your nice sheet.
Don't worry. They gave her the sheet and she
scribbled. She wrote a few things down.
She said, well, OK, so you really like talking about what's
going on in the world and you really like doing portraits.

(36:23):
So that's pretty obvious. You just combine the 2.
So, so we did and the 1st and within two weeks we've got Mick
Mad Mick, Michael Chaves, he's agood friend and we played music
with, he joined us on stage and,and we set it up and I recorded

(36:46):
it just on, on a three cheap phone cameras and it and it was
great and he was brilliant. He was a great 1st guest.
And when he saw it, he started crying.
And you know, I was like, oh, the money shot, we've got Mick
Cry. Then again, I realised Mick Cry
isn't anything actually so. But no, that, that was great.

(37:09):
And then and then then because Iplay music in a band as well and
we've done a gig at a little studio in Brighton because we're
banned from everywhere, every every other venue.
So we have to do it in our own rehearsal studio.
And Jackie Devoe came along, I don't know if you know Jackie,

(37:33):
she's got a, a great, well, she had a podcast, I think she's
paused it for now, but she does some brilliant work on the
particularly on the care homes. And she was with a friend who
she was on a date basically witha friend of ours.
And we were introduced and she said, oh, I'd have to come on
the show. So I did an interview with

(37:55):
Jackie and she ended up being the next sitter.
We had too many technical difficulties and it did go out,
but then I pulled it because it the sound was off and the camera
was off. So that one didn't go out.
But she was very gracious and helpful and lovely and she said,
who else would you like to have on?
So she got out her little Truth of Black Book, you know, and she

(38:18):
just said, what about David Icke?
I was like, oh, well, you know, yeah, I suppose why not?
And, and, and a couple of others, you know, names that,
you know, been big names in my life.
Like I said, I read David like 25 years ago and, you know, I'd
met him a couple of times. Just, I actually went to one of

(38:42):
his workshops late 90s. And it was in a Scout Hut, I
think knit just outside Brighton.
And there were about 12 people there.
And I remember him had a little cassette player and he played
Elton John. And I was like, what am I doing
here? I was just like, it was some
cheesy Elton John track, you know, he was sort of, because it

(39:03):
wasn't what I was expecting. I just read The Truth Will Set
You Free. And I was looking for, you know,
dark gender. Tell me who's running the world,
you know, And David was just talking about love and light,
you know, which was great. I mean, I totally get it now,
but it wasn't what I was expecting at the time, being a
kind of Moody young man. And anyway, so it's lovely to

(39:27):
meet him again. And we did the interview, we
went, we went up to Iconic Studios and they were great.
I mean, it was very, very relaxed.
They were, they were really welcoming and down to earth.
It was, it was, that was a nice afternoon.
So we had David Light and then Matt Letizier.

(39:49):
And I think after that, because we had a couple of big names
when we were pitching it to other people, you know, it sort
of had a bit of weight to it rather than just me saying, can
I paint your picture and chat with you for a bit?
You know, so, so yeah, it's, it's been great.
And we've had, we've had, we've probably done about 10 or 11

(40:13):
now, but that was on resistance.So now we're moving over to UK
column. Yeah, which is fantastic.
And I think going back to the image of, well, not necessarily
image, but the the idea of DavidIcke playing Elton John, which
might not be quite what you expected.
I think to anyone that has listened to any of the 1000

(40:35):
words podcast so far, we'll findthat it perhaps what they hear
does fall into that category. Because I think the amazing
thing is that the after, you know, for a lot of people, many
years of listening to interviews, even with some of
the people that you're talking about or listening to
conversations that have involvedthem or thinking about what one

(40:57):
thinks one knows about a particular person.
What 1000 words seems to bring in is something completely
different because the context and the setting is, is so, you
know, so much different from from anything else.
So going back to the, you know, the very first one you're
talking about, I don't know if you can remember sort of how you

(41:18):
thought it would go compared with how it did actually go.
Well, the very first one with Mick, I knew that Mick could
talk, you know, and, and I knew I knew he once, once, once he
got going, it would flow. I thought it would be easier to
paint and chat because I was used to listening to podcasts

(41:39):
when I paint and then I realisedwhen I was doing it, listening
and then actually formulating a response is a different part of
the brain. So I have struggled with that.
I mean, one, one way that I describe the 1000 words is doing

(42:00):
two things not as well as I could do if I was doing one
thing, you know, and, and you know, because people say do one
thing and do it well. Well, actually I'm doing two
things not, not that well, but, but that's sort of part of the
charm of it is part of the beauty of it.
Because I think I'm, I'm sort ofon my toes trying to get

(42:20):
something that looks like the city where I can't fully
concentrate and I'm trying to have a conversation and I'm, I'm
probably not picking up on everylead.
But what, what that does, like you say, it's it, it's a little
bit like the psychiatrist's couch.
It's just got a bit of that kindof I because I just have to let
things go a lot of the time And and, and because it's long

(42:41):
format, so it's four, sometimes five hours.
I think Mick would nearly hit six hours.
Really. It did.
And, you know, because of that long format, the guests say
things that they probably haven't said before in an
interview. I mean, David, like the first
half is him just talking about his childhood, you know, and

(43:04):
that's not the kind of thing that anyone's really going to.
You know, if you've got an hour to talk to David Icke, you're
not going to go tell me about your childhood for half an hour
and then we'll get onto the agenda or whatever.
You know, your latest book, he'sgoing to want to talk about from
the go. He's going to want to talk about

(43:25):
the book or whatever or, you know, people are interested in.
So it's, it's for people, you know, and, and that I think that
really resonated with a lot of people, though, a lot of
messages saying, Oh, that's so fascinating to hear his back
story, you know, just talking about his stories about football
boots and his first time in, youknow, when he was a kid and just

(43:46):
he's wearing these huge footballboots and how he scored a
penalty as a goalie and when he was 12 and it kick started his
career and all these kind of little stories.
And I I for me, I suppose, I suppose that's the crux of it in
a way. I'm interested in people perhaps

(44:07):
more than the details of what's going on out there.
Now that's not to say that's notimportant, but I think after
like when you've been looking atstuff for 25 years, I think you,
you sort of get to the point where you, you kind of know
something's going on and you've got a pretty good idea of what,

(44:30):
what's involved with the agenda.And, you know, I, I think
there's a point perhaps for eachof us, depending on where we're
at, where you might want to takethe foot off the gas in, in, in
terms of diving into the detailsand, and, and then refocus on

(44:52):
community, friendship, family building, You know, now they're
both really important. But I, I know someone that we'd
like to have on who's, who's agreed, but he's in Japan and
that's James Corbett. But I know he says that his

(45:12):
solution videos get the get the least amount of views compared
to his doom and gloom videos. You know, and there is this,
there is this, this tendency isn't there with us that we we
like to rummage in the, in the, you know, in the well in the
stool to examine the worms in the stool.

(45:33):
You know, we want to know what'sgoing on.
And I think that's fair enough. There's a point that, you know,
that is a healthy thing to do attimes, you know, but to have the
balance. And I think that's perhaps where
1000 words comes in it. You know, I think it will work
really well with the UK column because I think it will have
that left right balance. And I think that I think it's
great that you, that you, you know, that you're interested in,

(45:56):
in having us on board, because Ithink, I think it's important
for people to have that balance of perspective from in my life,
there was a period of probably about 10 years where I, you
know, just absolutely very, whatis it left brain just looking at

(46:21):
the details, you know, examining, you know, reading
everything, the history of the agenda, all the, you know, so
many different aspects. There's, there's probably very
little that I haven't at least looked at superficially.
And then, and then from my, my personal perspective, I don't do

(46:46):
that so much anymore. You know, I just, I, I don't, I
don't feel the need to so much. And that, that was, that came up
with Sandy Adams. We did Sandy Adams and that that
was really interesting because she's she's quite a creative
individual. She's a very artistic person
herself, you know, and I could see this conflict in there, you
know, but what she actually doesbecause she's, you know, she her

(47:09):
her analytical work is amazing. And she was almost doubting
herself saying, well, you know, I really maybe I should just be
being creative and do it, you know, go off and and leave it,
leave it behind. I think she was in sort of
dilemma, but it's so important to have both.

(47:31):
Absolutely it is. It's very interesting what
you're saying. Well, I mean actually, sorry,
first of all, I should go back and just pick you up on your
very self deprecating remark about the the podcast being two
things, neither of which is donebrilliantly.
I would I would disagree fundamentally with that point in
that I've seen the portraits, all of which are absolutely

(47:53):
first class and. Yeah, but you didn't see them.
You didn't see them at the time.Well, OK, fine.
Come on, let's. Not because I do, I do, I do
work on, I do, I do take them away and work on them
afterwards. But yeah.
I know, I know, I know. But still, being able to do
those two things at all concurrently is pretty
remarkable. And the the main thing, exactly

(48:15):
like you say, the main thing is that you are, you're creating a
different environment, you're providing a totally different
backdrop, context, whatever. And, and I think people do give
of themselves something that youjust don't get elsewhere.
It doesn't come across in other interviews, in other
discussions, that kind of thing.I and I, I think that's that's
really remarkable. And that's that's what I look
forward to about UK column goingto host this because it will

(48:38):
give our audience a completely different perspective on the
both the people, but also the the, you know, the fact that it
is combined with a with a practical application of a of a
talent in this, in this instance, painting.
And I think that's another really important thing in this
day and age that people do have an insight into that which

(49:01):
we'll, you know, we'll come on to in a minute.
But but go, you know, James Corbett, we, I would echo this
from from this side of the world, the, you know,
unfortunate as it is, but actually, yes, material that
does provide, let's say solutions, whether they be
concerning something that you can absolutely sort of start
with today, which would be an easy 1 instead of health and

(49:23):
what you eat and where you get it and that kind of thing.
Yes, typically these sorts of things do get the least
engagement. And I think what's regrettable
in terms of the sort of like yousay, there are two sides to it.
That's the personal or micro community bit and then the and
then the macro bit. I mean, I think the way I would

(49:43):
look at it is that they are absolutely part of the same
thing, but it's just that one, one comes before the other.
If you've got the, the personal small scale community thing
sorted, then then the rest of itnaturally follows.
And I think for a lot of people who have been quite
understandably completely discombobulated by the events
that have happened in the world,most especially in the last five

(50:05):
years, it is really difficult toget a, to get a sense of that.
And I think that with 1000 words, this is an excellent way
to sort of address these kinds of things because it's, it's a
different tempo and and I think that's really come across in
what you've done to date. Yeah.
And I think my, my approach is it's certainly not

(50:30):
confrontational because I, I can't, I couldn't have an
argument with someone and paint them so.
So if people are looking for forconfrontational interviews, that
isn't the place. But, but having said that, I, I,

(50:52):
I'm, I'm very keen and, and I make sure that I'm very honest
and truthful in, in my questions.
And I think if there is confrontation, it hopefully
it's, it's in a very open hearted kind of way.

(51:18):
And, and in a way hope, hopefully it, it gives people
the space to, to express what they feel without feeling
they're going to be shut down or, or, you know, questioned too
intensely over certain points. There's there's definitely a

(51:41):
kind of laid back atmosphere when when we're when we're
chatting and painting. Yeah, I think so.
I, I think that that really comes across.
You've talked a bit about, you know, you well, first of all
your education going back years,training or whatever the the
correct word might be. And then the mentorship you were
talking about recently. You know, another wonderful

(52:03):
thing about what you're doing, what you're able to do is your
teaching of other people. You, you talked a little bit
about online application of that, but also you do this in
person. I mean, certainly most recently
at the Hope Freedom Festival, you know, you ran a sort of
class there. Just just tell me sort of a bit
a bit more about that and sort of where that goes where that

(52:25):
takes people. It's funny because I, I wanted
to start a group for, for awake artists or, or people who want,
wanted to learn to paint, but we're also aware of what's going
on because I think there's so many parallels and I, you know,

(52:48):
because essentially drawing, drawing is about truth.
You know, even, even even abstract art has to have an
element of truth to it. Otherwise it's just pointless.
And you know, when we're drawingjust in the very active looking,

(53:08):
we're trying to look completely objectively at what at the
subject like that. That's how you get a good
drawing. If you if you have preconceived
ideas about what you're drawing,they will taint what you're
drawing. So one of the first things that
you might do or, or a very common lesson when you're

(53:29):
learning to draw is to, and it'swhat I did at, at hope with the
students was to have a referencephoto.
And we, we tried to draw it. It was a face, a portrait.
And we drew the face and then weturned it upside down and then
drew it again. And what that does it, it tricks

(53:49):
the brain into not thinking, oh,that's an eye or that's a nose,
That's a mouth. I know what an eye looks like.
It's a circle with a dot in the middle.
I know what a nose is. It's 2 lines and then two
nostrils and a, you know, and when you flip it over, you just
see, you just see what's there. You just, it's light and shade

(54:13):
in different patterns and you'renot thinking this is an eye or
this is a nose. And that is essentially I think
what the journey is, the journeythat we're on in our community.
We're trying to see what's thereregardless of what we've been
told. Now that can be from both sides

(54:36):
because there is clearly disinformation put out there on
both sides. And we have to be, we have to be
really astute and, and really discerning.
Otherwise it just gets very messy and, and, and we're not
looking at reality. And if we want to look at
reality, if we want to know whatreality is, which I would guess

(54:57):
is pretty much what everyone's really aiming for, we want to,
we want to know what's true, youknow, we want to know what's
true. And so a lot of those, a lot of
those skills are part of that. And I, and I think that's so
yeah, with, with the interviews,that's my approach.
I just want to know what's there, you know, And sometimes I

(55:20):
throw in my thoughts and, you know, we have a discussion.
I mean, one thing that comes up a lot, and this is my own thing,
is the Flat Earth debate, right?And I, and it's, and it's not,
it's not that I'm overly concerned with the shape of the
Earth. I really, really I'm not.
But I think what the Flat Earth debate raises what, what, what

(55:43):
it shows us is, well, it raises a lot of points, whether you,
whether you're sympathetic or not, it's certainly a very
divisive topic. And for me, a bit like earlier

(56:04):
when I said things will change when people start speaking out,
I think things will change. Another, another big key in, in
the, in the, in getting things to change is people not being
attached to ideas either side, you know, So when we, when we

(56:24):
wake up or when we realise there's an agenda, I think, I
think it's quite easy to get sucked into a second matrix.
And I think there's a lot of, a lot of holes dug for people to
explore, which might not be thatproductive.
Now, I'm not, I'm, you know, I'mnot talking specifically about

(56:46):
Flat Earth, but I think, you know, I've had some guests who,
who are sympathetic with Flat Earth and, and some aren't.
But why I bring it up is becauseI think it really shows it's a
good, it's a good way of, of, oftesting how we can communicate

(57:07):
with each other. And if we can have an open
hearted dialogue with people that we disagree with within our
community, if that's how we see it, then we've won.
Because then when we go outside and try and talk to people who
are just completely or not completely, but you know, who

(57:27):
are, who may be looking at stufffor the first time.
We're armed with tools, we're armed with skills that we've
learnt in our family, in our tribe.
You know, we've tested, we've, we've tested ourselves.
We've, we've learnt how to be calm and open minded even when

(57:47):
we disagree. And we've learnt to, you know,
all these things. So a lot of the conversations I
have that's that's definitely a part of it is how do we learn to
communicate in an open hearted way, perhaps when we disagree
without being attached to ideas,looking at things like the

(58:07):
drawing, what is really there not being attached and all these
things are just really importantfor me.
They're as important as what's the, what you know what, what it
says in this government paper orthat what does this legislation
say and what, what, what's, what's the agenda behind this
next political move or whatever?Because there's always going to

(58:30):
be stuff out there. There's always going to be
deceit in whatever form. But if we can learn to be
grounded and solid and and and flexible and open hearted and
open minded, then we've cracked it almost, you know, that that
really is that. I think it's just so important.

(58:51):
It's absolutely beautifully put,Jake, and I think that will have
to be a great note upon which toend.
I think we need add, add nothingto that.
Very profound and very well articulated.
What I would like to do though, is to remind people first of all
that what we've been talking about is the 1000 Words podcast,
which is going to come out on the UK column website soon.

(59:12):
So please keep your eyes peeled for that.
But also, if, as I hope you willhave done, an interest might
have been stimulated in the ideaof having your portrait painted
by Jake, then I would encourage you to consider that or to
spread the word and, and suggestit to people that you know that
might want to do that. So with that in mind, Jake,

(59:34):
where would you direct people tohave a look at your work and to
find out a bit more about what you do do as an artist?
Well, fortunately my name isn't that common.
So if you, if you put it into your favourite search engine,
Jake, Fern, Fern, you'll probably you'll, you'll find me.
I think I've started the sub stack, which is really nice

(59:55):
because that's combined everything.
It's got 1000 words. Righteous Brothers got my
portrait chair. But if you can't find that, just
just go to jakefern.co.uk. Perfect.
And and again, just a quick reminder, that UK column is only

(01:00:15):
funded by donations and indeed memberships from those that do
subscribe. So if you would consider doing
that, we'd be absolutely delighted to have you on board.
But thank you very much indeed for listening.
And Jake Fern, a massive thank you for joining me on what's
been a phenomenally interesting interview and we'll really look
forward to the podcast starting soon.

(01:00:37):
Thanks. Jake, thanks, Charles.