August 31, 2025 • 20 mins
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I wanted to just come back onto the opening news item, right?
And somebody in the chat box hadsaid, or at some point it made
the point that Tommy Robinson, if it wasn't for Tommy Robinson,
we wouldn't know anything about the grooming gangs.
Now, this has got to be controversial thing to say, but
(00:22):
I just would invite people to consider what's being said here.
Because the fact of the matter is that grooming gangs, as
reprehensible as they are and asneeding prosecution as they
have, as they are, that entire thing was, in my opinion, and
(00:46):
aside from the criminality of it, an operation by the deep
state designed to incite strong feelings in the community on
whichever side of the argument you have in the sit, whether
you're Asian or white British. Because the point that we've
(01:07):
been trying to make for since the beginning of that issue was
that the grooming gangs could not have operated without the
full complicity of the state. They were permitted to do what
they did. And we need to be asking why
were they permitted to be, to dowhat they did.
Now, the excuse which is given is that people didn't step in
(01:28):
because of concerns that they would be accused of being racist
in some way. Sorry, that does not wash.
Criminality is criminality no matter who does it.
And so that's an excuse. The other thing that I want to
make, the other point that I want to reiterate once again, is
(01:50):
that contrary to much of the rhetoric which is right there,
there is zero evidence to support the claim that there is
a greater preponderance of sexual abuse of children in one
community over another. And in fact, we have been
working with the abused in this country for 20 years.
(02:15):
And we can absolutely say with certainty that the vast majority
of the people that we have been working with have been abused by
people who are not Asian. And certainly, well, let's just
leave it, leave it at that pointthere.
So the question is, if Tommy Robinson has gotten the lid off
(02:40):
grooming gangs, he did so with the support of the mainstream
press in a sense, because suddenly that issue became an
issue which hit the mainstream and therefore into a much
broader public awareness than ithad been.
And then again, we should be asking the question, why did the
(03:01):
mainstream media get onto that story and why now?
The other thing that I would make the point, the other point
that I would make here is that if you've been watching the UK
column since I think around 20/16/2017, we have been
highlighting the fact that we started to see rhetoric from
(03:23):
the, the, the police agencies that the, and the intelligence
agencies suddenly talking about the rise of a far right in this
country. And at that time, we said that
there was no such thing as a farright in this country and that
if there was a rise of the far right going to take place, it
(03:44):
was going to happen because of the efforts of the British deep
state. And I believe that's exactly
what has happened in the sense that people of all classes are
being radicalized to a certain degree.
I say this is probably quite difficult for some people to
(04:07):
hear somebody saying, but I think we've got to consider the
possibility that that's what's been going on.
And I think that's really what you were attempting to start the
conversation about with your report at the beginning of the
program, Charles. So I mean, what are your
thoughts and what I've just said?
Yeah. Well, I would absolutely agree
(04:28):
with that. I would also cite very early on
Raja Meer because UK column now has I think 2 interviews with
Raja Ben. Ben Rubin's done 2 interviews
with Raja Meer and indeed he spoke at our on location event
in Cheltenham back in April. And absolute case in point, I
(04:50):
mean he, he, he, I would say would be the go to person on the
the wider issue and the enablingof the grooming gangs.
So I think that's absolutely right.
I think the danger with, and I'mnot, I don't actually mean to
(05:10):
necessarily single out Tommy Robinson because he has become
an icon in certain quarters and because he does receive much
more publicity than anybody who's in effect sending the same
message. It is, it is very easy to see
that every single, every single but, but the, the narrative that
(05:38):
he puts out, the things that he investigates or expose, expose
or, or whatever terms these things are put in, always have
the same conclusion, which is that the villain of the piece is
a Muslim. And that that is, that is
problematic when it's, when it overlaps with, let's say what's
(06:02):
going on now, which is this campaign to do something that
should be totally innocent. It's the, the operation raise
the colours. So to put, to put flags
everywhere. I mean, you know, you go to any
European country and people absolutely are flying the
national flag off their house. It's, it's completely normal.
It should be totally normal, butit's not.
It's, it is absolutely being turned into a divisive issue and
(06:26):
it's, it just crosses that line from being proud to be British
to proud to be British at the exclusion of whatever else it
is. And it's just that the most
obvious one at the moment, as asevidenced by that.
OK, admittedly only one video, but absolutely there are lots
more out there of people tearingdown Palestinian flags in order
(06:47):
to replace them with Saint George's crosses or Union flags.
And and I think my contention would be that Tommy Robinson's
work and the various causes thathe promotes and the engagements
that he has in a sort of media context are aggravating or
(07:09):
creating tensions where none really should exist.
And I think that's the problem and I think people for for the
absolutely vast majority of people who are perhaps
considering that what's happening with flags and the
sort of, you know, people are, you know, feeling some sense
sense of national pride and all the rest of it, absolutely fine.
(07:30):
But I think that there will be ahuge lack of awareness amongst
those sorts of people about the way in which they are in effect
being manipulated, I think, and how how that campaign can very
easily be weaponized. And how again, the other video
that showed those chaps who wereas well as painting St.
(07:53):
George's crosses on the side of the house, then shouting at
people that they considered to be Muslim.
I mean that, you know, seriously, who does that
benefit? But it but it, I think it is
easy to plot a line backwards from that to somebody like Tommy
Robinson, simply because none ofthe material that he covers has
(08:15):
anybody else as the wrongdoer. And therefore it's very, very
obvious. And this is the way that that
sort of media works in terms of messaging.
It is very obvious that not onlyis every single 'cause that he
brings out one that does down Islam as a faith and
(08:35):
specifically people who are described as Muslims in the UK,
but, but on the obverse, and this is exactly what David
Miller was talking about, this, this is to the advantage of the
Israel lobby and and the Zionistagenda.
And that is really, really dangerous.
Funding and and that's why that's why that's the
destination of everything that he does is because that is that
(08:57):
is who is promoting exactly. No, but the question in the chat
box then was why was Tommy Robinson imprisoned and
demonized? Look, we've got to get our heads
around how these gang counter gang operations work.
If that man is standing up, funded by Zionism, pushing out a
particular type of message, and then the state puts him in
(09:18):
prison for some of something that he has done, what's the
reaction in among his supporters?
But even in among the the broader population?
Why is the state putting people in prison who were who, who have
been making comments on social media about on, on so-called
right wing issues on immigrationor whatever?
(09:39):
Why are they putting those people in prison?
Why they don't put people in prison for other on on other
left wing topics? Why did they have this two tier
care policing 2 tier everything at the moment.
It's designed to wind people up.I would really urge everybody to
(10:05):
read Frank Kitson's book Gangs and Counter Gangs.
He was in charge of the British military operation in Kenya, in
Malaya, in Northern Ireland at the at the very beginning and so
on. He wrote several books on this
type of thing. We need to sort of try to get to
(10:27):
get to grips with the types of psychological operations which
are run by the state. And you know, this comes back
once again, we'll say it once again comes back to the change
in military doctrine in this country and in other countries.
But in this country in recent years where, where this type of
(10:49):
activity was something that we exported to other places to some
to a greater or lesser extent. It is a game that we have played
domestically as well. But it is absolutely all the
stops are off now. And the British government is
absolutely using these tactics on its own population for 100
different reasons. And, and if we don't understand
(11:11):
the tactics, then we don't understand what's going on
around us and we're going to fall into traps.
Well, this is it. I mean, I, you know that, which
is why I sort of wound up by by saying it's, it's digital ID.
You know, you create, you createenough of this madness and
people will kind of accept anything.
Sandy, we've banged on and what what do you think about about?
This no, it means it's too fascinating.
(11:33):
I don't think it's banging on atall.
It's, it's interesting because we, there's, I just feel with
this tinderbox point that, you know, it is really a tinderbox
at the moment. And, and it's very difficult
because yes, everyone is being played by the establishment and,
(11:53):
and beyond. And I think, you know, it's
about I, I would like to ask youto, what would your message be
to people who are going to turn out on the 13th of September in
London? What would your message be to
them? Well, my message, but, well,
where do we start with that? I mean, that's a big question,
(12:14):
sadly, frankly. Sorry, sorry, it's just.
That you know. You're saying, you know, I'm
playing devil's advocate here because there are people who are
genuinely concerned about the, the you know, about what's
happening to their country, the destruction in every single way
of their country. And and then they're being fed
all this stuff. All the, you know, these
(12:36):
migrants are staying in four-star hotels.
Look at what they're eating. They're eating better than you
at home. You're struggling to feed your
children, but look at them. It's all you know.
It is a big. Big and right there with that
comment, you, you have absolutely hit the nail on the
head that that is that is what'sbeing done to us all.
So what? And people are going to turn
(12:58):
out, I mean, I met 2 very, very normal, kind of ordinary women
the other day who stopped me andthey, they recognised me in the
street and they said you're Sandy, aren't you like, oh, are
you going on the 13th of September?
And I said no, not me. And, and it was really
interesting. They said, oh, we're going.
And they seemed so normal. And I said, well, you know, I,
(13:19):
what do you say to them? Because are they being drawn
into some sort of the thing where they could be used and,
and end up being arrested or I don't know.
I mean they or their, their argument to me was, well, we
went on the last time in Robinson March and it was well
organised and he was saying you've got to keep calm.
You mustn't, you know, and what do you say to that?
(13:41):
Because we all know what he's about and we know what Farage is
about. We know that everybody's being
manipulated. So what do you say to them when
they say we're going on that March?
Yeah, but you say we know. Who knows?
I might know. I might know the people in the
chat box. Might I did tell them I, I spoke
to them and I said, look, you know, this is, it's, it's really
(14:02):
difficult because people do wantto fight for their for their
country. They do want to be able to, to
fly their flag. But is it at the, at the expense
of pulling down a Palestinian flag when you know what's going
on there is horrendous? And it's the same hidden hand
that's organising everything in that respect.
And so I, I just feel that there's so much that people
(14:26):
don't understand and it's, it's almost impossible.
I mean, we do our best here to explain it, but I think a lot of
people are, it's almost like a very emotive thing.
And they are patriotic and they,they don't like the destruction.
But this destruction is coming in, as I said, with Agenda 2030
in every direction they're beinghit.
(14:47):
And this is just a scapegoat. This is the way they vent their
anger, and This is why we have to.
Be careful. But yes, absolutely.
My, my worry is that that their anger is going to be vented in
the wrong direction. And I'm not saying that the,
the, the immigration issue is not an issue that needs to be
resolved, but I don't, I think that we're very, very close to
(15:10):
the point where that issue is going to be resolved violently.
And no matter who's saying keep calm and carry on, that, that
ain't how it's going to be because, because you're
absolutely right. People have been, are, are, have
been wind up to boiling point. Now that on the issue of the
flags, umm, Charles said that flying flags in other countries
(15:31):
is normal. Uh, if you think about it, the,
the George Cross has been demonized in this country for 30
years, 40 years, because it has been, it is, it is a flag which
has been, uh, associated with, uh, the National Front or with
the various other so-called. Football supporters.
(15:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.
And the only time, but but who'swho, who made that, who
demonized it in that way the mainstream press did.
And the only time that you were allowed to bring the the George
Cross out was when England was playing in, in the World Cup or
in the EUR or something, right? That was the only time you're
allowed to bring it out. Otherwise it was a symbol of
(16:16):
right right wing extremism, right?
That should that should be givenpeople a clue.
Yeah. Right on the issue of of so I'm
not, I'm not for one second suggesting that the migrant
issue should not be dealt with, but dealing with issues when,
(16:37):
when feelings are high as they are at the moment, you're likely
to end up with the wrong outcome.
It's the same with, you know, the fact of the the fact of the
matter is, Sandy, as you know, with devolution and so on,
constitutionally this country isscrewed.
Our our governance is screwed inthis country.
How do you deal with that? Well, obviously you've got to
(16:58):
have a conversation about how weintend to be governed in the
future. But the danger with things at
the moment is that actually there aren't very many people in
the country know enough about how governance works and how it
should work that they won't be taken down the an even more
extreme version of the devolution agenda that we're
seeing at the moment and, and right into the arms of Agenda
(17:20):
2030. That's very, very likely.
I believe that the migrant issueis aside from digital ID is on a
more broader on a broader issue is absolutely going to bring us
into the arms of Agenda 2030. It's also going to encourage us
to support further activities abroad.
(17:42):
And so you know it, it's what doyou say to people.
There is no simple one line thing that you can say to
people. It has to be a conversation.
And so that conversation, I think as David said, Charles's
first segment today begins this conversation, this particular
(18:07):
conversation today. And but it doesn't end today
because it has to be something that we have over a longer
period of time. And and so I don't think there's
a quick and easy answer to that question.
No, it's difficult because when,when when you look at the
Olympics and I always remember, you know, weird though, it was
(18:28):
the Olympic ceremony when it wasin London and they had, they had
Glastonbury tour and they, everyone was sticking their
flags in it. You know, everybody's proud to
stick their flag into, you know,they were proud to stick their
flag in flag into the tour and say, you know, This Is Us, we're
from Denmark, we're from. And there there is that sense of
national pride, which I think isactually quite healthy in lots
(18:49):
of ways, so long as it doesn't become extreme.
And and I don't think most people in this country are
extremists. They're not they are concerned.
But there is an element obviously of extreme racism
going on. And as we saw in that, in that,
I mean, you know, big sort of thuggy people, you know, really
(19:10):
behaving very badly. And so, you know, whether
whether that will will, will take hold, I, I'm not so sure it
will. I hope not, but I would hope
that people are more measured and, and really understand.
And if they do go to these marches, they, they actually
keep their cool and you know, do, you know, don't, don't,
(19:34):
don't get involved because what they want is civil war.
And we, we can't descend down that way because.
Then they can. You're not saying the the the
people on the March want that, but the government wants that.
Yeah, the government want that exactly.
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, I
think, I regret to say, I think that's, uh, absolutely the case
because, you know, if we think about the emergency cars that
(19:57):
were brought in as a result of COVID and those become much
more, there's certainly much more scope for even more
draconian limitations placed on people if you are on war
footing.
I wanted to just come back onto the opening news item, right?
And somebody in the chat box hadsaid, or at some point it made
the point that Tommy Robinson, if it wasn't for Tommy Robinson,
we wouldn't know anything about the grooming gangs.
Now, this has got to be controversial thing to say, but
(00:22):
I just would invite people to consider what's being said here.
Because the fact of the matter is that grooming gangs, as
reprehensible as they are and asneeding prosecution as they
have, as they are, that entire thing was, in my opinion, and
(00:46):
aside from the criminality of it, an operation by the deep
state designed to incite strong feelings in the community on
whichever side of the argument you have in the sit, whether
you're Asian or white British. Because the point that we've
(01:07):
been trying to make for since the beginning of that issue was
that the grooming gangs could not have operated without the
full complicity of the state. They were permitted to do what
they did. And we need to be asking why
were they permitted to be, to dowhat they did.
Now, the excuse which is given is that people didn't step in
(01:28):
because of concerns that they would be accused of being racist
in some way. Sorry, that does not wash.
Criminality is criminality no matter who does it.
And so that's an excuse. The other thing that I want to
make, the other point that I want to reiterate once again, is
(01:50):
that contrary to much of the rhetoric which is right there,
there is zero evidence to support the claim that there is
a greater preponderance of sexual abuse of children in one
community over another. And in fact, we have been
working with the abused in this country for 20 years.
(02:15):
And we can absolutely say with certainty that the vast majority
of the people that we have been working with have been abused by
people who are not Asian. And certainly, well, let's just
leave it, leave it at that pointthere.
So the question is, if Tommy Robinson has gotten the lid off
(02:40):
grooming gangs, he did so with the support of the mainstream
press in a sense, because suddenly that issue became an
issue which hit the mainstream and therefore into a much
broader public awareness than ithad been.
And then again, we should be asking the question, why did the
(03:01):
mainstream media get onto that story and why now?
The other thing that I would make the point, the other point
that I would make here is that if you've been watching the UK
column since I think around 20/16/2017, we have been
highlighting the fact that we started to see rhetoric from
(03:23):
the, the, the police agencies that the, and the intelligence
agencies suddenly talking about the rise of a far right in this
country. And at that time, we said that
there was no such thing as a farright in this country and that
if there was a rise of the far right going to take place, it
(03:44):
was going to happen because of the efforts of the British deep
state. And I believe that's exactly
what has happened in the sense that people of all classes are
being radicalized to a certain degree.
I say this is probably quite difficult for some people to
(04:07):
hear somebody saying, but I think we've got to consider the
possibility that that's what's been going on.
And I think that's really what you were attempting to start the
conversation about with your report at the beginning of the
program, Charles. So I mean, what are your
thoughts and what I've just said?
Yeah. Well, I would absolutely agree
(04:28):
with that. I would also cite very early on
Raja Meer because UK column now has I think 2 interviews with
Raja Ben. Ben Rubin's done 2 interviews
with Raja Meer and indeed he spoke at our on location event
in Cheltenham back in April. And absolute case in point, I
(04:50):
mean he, he, he, I would say would be the go to person on the
the wider issue and the enablingof the grooming gangs.
So I think that's absolutely right.
I think the danger with, and I'mnot, I don't actually mean to
(05:10):
necessarily single out Tommy Robinson because he has become
an icon in certain quarters and because he does receive much
more publicity than anybody who's in effect sending the same
message. It is, it is very easy to see
that every single, every single but, but the, the narrative that
(05:38):
he puts out, the things that he investigates or expose, expose
or, or whatever terms these things are put in, always have
the same conclusion, which is that the villain of the piece is
a Muslim. And that that is, that is
problematic when it's, when it overlaps with, let's say what's
(06:02):
going on now, which is this campaign to do something that
should be totally innocent. It's the, the operation raise
the colours. So to put, to put flags
everywhere. I mean, you know, you go to any
European country and people absolutely are flying the
national flag off their house. It's, it's completely normal.
It should be totally normal, butit's not.
It's, it is absolutely being turned into a divisive issue and
(06:26):
it's, it just crosses that line from being proud to be British
to proud to be British at the exclusion of whatever else it
is. And it's just that the most
obvious one at the moment, as asevidenced by that.
OK, admittedly only one video, but absolutely there are lots
more out there of people tearingdown Palestinian flags in order
(06:47):
to replace them with Saint George's crosses or Union flags.
And and I think my contention would be that Tommy Robinson's
work and the various causes thathe promotes and the engagements
that he has in a sort of media context are aggravating or
(07:09):
creating tensions where none really should exist.
And I think that's the problem and I think people for for the
absolutely vast majority of people who are perhaps
considering that what's happening with flags and the
sort of, you know, people are, you know, feeling some sense
sense of national pride and all the rest of it, absolutely fine.
(07:30):
But I think that there will be ahuge lack of awareness amongst
those sorts of people about the way in which they are in effect
being manipulated, I think, and how how that campaign can very
easily be weaponized. And how again, the other video
that showed those chaps who wereas well as painting St.
(07:53):
George's crosses on the side of the house, then shouting at
people that they considered to be Muslim.
I mean that, you know, seriously, who does that
benefit? But it but it, I think it is
easy to plot a line backwards from that to somebody like Tommy
Robinson, simply because none ofthe material that he covers has
(08:15):
anybody else as the wrongdoer. And therefore it's very, very
obvious. And this is the way that that
sort of media works in terms of messaging.
It is very obvious that not onlyis every single 'cause that he
brings out one that does down Islam as a faith and
(08:35):
specifically people who are described as Muslims in the UK,
but, but on the obverse, and this is exactly what David
Miller was talking about, this, this is to the advantage of the
Israel lobby and and the Zionistagenda.
And that is really, really dangerous.
Funding and and that's why that's why that's the
destination of everything that he does is because that is that
(08:57):
is who is promoting exactly. No, but the question in the chat
box then was why was Tommy Robinson imprisoned and
demonized? Look, we've got to get our heads
around how these gang counter gang operations work.
If that man is standing up, funded by Zionism, pushing out a
particular type of message, and then the state puts him in
(09:18):
prison for some of something that he has done, what's the
reaction in among his supporters?
But even in among the the broader population?
Why is the state putting people in prison who were who, who have
been making comments on social media about on, on so-called
right wing issues on immigrationor whatever?
(09:39):
Why are they putting those people in prison?
Why they don't put people in prison for other on on other
left wing topics? Why did they have this two tier
care policing 2 tier everything at the moment.
It's designed to wind people up.I would really urge everybody to
(10:05):
read Frank Kitson's book Gangs and Counter Gangs.
He was in charge of the British military operation in Kenya, in
Malaya, in Northern Ireland at the at the very beginning and so
on. He wrote several books on this
type of thing. We need to sort of try to get to
(10:27):
get to grips with the types of psychological operations which
are run by the state. And you know, this comes back
once again, we'll say it once again comes back to the change
in military doctrine in this country and in other countries.
But in this country in recent years where, where this type of
(10:49):
activity was something that we exported to other places to some
to a greater or lesser extent. It is a game that we have played
domestically as well. But it is absolutely all the
stops are off now. And the British government is
absolutely using these tactics on its own population for 100
different reasons. And, and if we don't understand
(11:11):
the tactics, then we don't understand what's going on
around us and we're going to fall into traps.
Well, this is it. I mean, I, you know that, which
is why I sort of wound up by by saying it's, it's digital ID.
You know, you create, you createenough of this madness and
people will kind of accept anything.
Sandy, we've banged on and what what do you think about about?
This no, it means it's too fascinating.
(11:33):
I don't think it's banging on atall.
It's, it's interesting because we, there's, I just feel with
this tinderbox point that, you know, it is really a tinderbox
at the moment. And, and it's very difficult
because yes, everyone is being played by the establishment and,
(11:53):
and beyond. And I think, you know, it's
about I, I would like to ask youto, what would your message be
to people who are going to turn out on the 13th of September in
London? What would your message be to
them? Well, my message, but, well,
where do we start with that? I mean, that's a big question,
(12:14):
sadly, frankly. Sorry, sorry, it's just.
That you know. You're saying, you know, I'm
playing devil's advocate here because there are people who are
genuinely concerned about the, the you know, about what's
happening to their country, the destruction in every single way
of their country. And and then they're being fed
all this stuff. All the, you know, these
(12:36):
migrants are staying in four-star hotels.
Look at what they're eating. They're eating better than you
at home. You're struggling to feed your
children, but look at them. It's all you know.
It is a big. Big and right there with that
comment, you, you have absolutely hit the nail on the
head that that is that is what'sbeing done to us all.
So what? And people are going to turn
(12:58):
out, I mean, I met 2 very, very normal, kind of ordinary women
the other day who stopped me andthey, they recognised me in the
street and they said you're Sandy, aren't you like, oh, are
you going on the 13th of September?
And I said no, not me. And, and it was really
interesting. They said, oh, we're going.
And they seemed so normal. And I said, well, you know, I,
(13:19):
what do you say to them? Because are they being drawn
into some sort of the thing where they could be used and,
and end up being arrested or I don't know.
I mean they or their, their argument to me was, well, we
went on the last time in Robinson March and it was well
organised and he was saying you've got to keep calm.
You mustn't, you know, and what do you say to that?
(13:41):
Because we all know what he's about and we know what Farage is
about. We know that everybody's being
manipulated. So what do you say to them when
they say we're going on that March?
Yeah, but you say we know. Who knows?
I might know. I might know the people in the
chat box. Might I did tell them I, I spoke
to them and I said, look, you know, this is, it's, it's really
(14:02):
difficult because people do wantto fight for their for their
country. They do want to be able to, to
fly their flag. But is it at the, at the expense
of pulling down a Palestinian flag when you know what's going
on there is horrendous? And it's the same hidden hand
that's organising everything in that respect.
And so I, I just feel that there's so much that people
(14:26):
don't understand and it's, it's almost impossible.
I mean, we do our best here to explain it, but I think a lot of
people are, it's almost like a very emotive thing.
And they are patriotic and they,they don't like the destruction.
But this destruction is coming in, as I said, with Agenda 2030
in every direction they're beinghit.
(14:47):
And this is just a scapegoat. This is the way they vent their
anger, and This is why we have to.
Be careful. But yes, absolutely.
My, my worry is that that their anger is going to be vented in
the wrong direction. And I'm not saying that the,
the, the immigration issue is not an issue that needs to be
resolved, but I don't, I think that we're very, very close to
(15:10):
the point where that issue is going to be resolved violently.
And no matter who's saying keep calm and carry on, that, that
ain't how it's going to be because, because you're
absolutely right. People have been, are, are, have
been wind up to boiling point. Now that on the issue of the
flags, umm, Charles said that flying flags in other countries
(15:31):
is normal. Uh, if you think about it, the,
the George Cross has been demonized in this country for 30
years, 40 years, because it has been, it is, it is a flag which
has been, uh, associated with, uh, the National Front or with
the various other so-called. Football supporters.
(15:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah.
And the only time, but but who'swho, who made that, who
demonized it in that way the mainstream press did.
And the only time that you were allowed to bring the the George
Cross out was when England was playing in, in the World Cup or
in the EUR or something, right? That was the only time you're
allowed to bring it out. Otherwise it was a symbol of
(16:16):
right right wing extremism, right?
That should that should be givenpeople a clue.
Yeah. Right on the issue of of so I'm
not, I'm not for one second suggesting that the migrant
issue should not be dealt with, but dealing with issues when,
(16:37):
when feelings are high as they are at the moment, you're likely
to end up with the wrong outcome.
It's the same with, you know, the fact of the the fact of the
matter is, Sandy, as you know, with devolution and so on,
constitutionally this country isscrewed.
Our our governance is screwed inthis country.
How do you deal with that? Well, obviously you've got to
(16:58):
have a conversation about how weintend to be governed in the
future. But the danger with things at
the moment is that actually there aren't very many people in
the country know enough about how governance works and how it
should work that they won't be taken down the an even more
extreme version of the devolution agenda that we're
seeing at the moment and, and right into the arms of Agenda
(17:20):
2030. That's very, very likely.
I believe that the migrant issueis aside from digital ID is on a
more broader on a broader issue is absolutely going to bring us
into the arms of Agenda 2030. It's also going to encourage us
to support further activities abroad.
(17:42):
And so you know it, it's what doyou say to people.
There is no simple one line thing that you can say to
people. It has to be a conversation.
And so that conversation, I think as David said, Charles's
first segment today begins this conversation, this particular
(18:07):
conversation today. And but it doesn't end today
because it has to be something that we have over a longer
period of time. And and so I don't think there's
a quick and easy answer to that question.
No, it's difficult because when,when when you look at the
Olympics and I always remember, you know, weird though, it was
(18:28):
the Olympic ceremony when it wasin London and they had, they had
Glastonbury tour and they, everyone was sticking their
flags in it. You know, everybody's proud to
stick their flag into, you know,they were proud to stick their
flag in flag into the tour and say, you know, This Is Us, we're
from Denmark, we're from. And there there is that sense of
national pride, which I think isactually quite healthy in lots
(18:49):
of ways, so long as it doesn't become extreme.
And and I don't think most people in this country are
extremists. They're not they are concerned.
But there is an element obviously of extreme racism
going on. And as we saw in that, in that,
I mean, you know, big sort of thuggy people, you know, really
(19:10):
behaving very badly. And so, you know, whether
whether that will will, will take hold, I, I'm not so sure it
will. I hope not, but I would hope
that people are more measured and, and really understand.
And if they do go to these marches, they, they actually
keep their cool and you know, do, you know, don't, don't,
(19:34):
don't get involved because what they want is civil war.
And we, we can't descend down that way because.
Then they can. You're not saying the the the
people on the March want that, but the government wants that.
Yeah, the government want that exactly.
Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, I
think, I regret to say, I think that's, uh, absolutely the case
because, you know, if we think about the emergency cars that
(19:57):
were brought in as a result of COVID and those become much
more, there's certainly much more scope for even more
draconian limitations placed on people if you are on war
footing.
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