August 15, 2024 • 35 mins
Ready to dive into a world where music meets marketing? Join us on Unglossy as we sit down with industry veteran Chris Atlas to uncover the symbiotic relationship between music, brand, marketing, and culture. We reminisce about our personal encounters with promotional products from major brands and how they’ve shaped our views, giving you a peek into the unpolished reality behind the glossy ads. Chris shares his incredible journey from working with industry giants to spearheading innovative projects at Fat Beats, offering a treasure trove of insights on the creative and strategic decisions that define this dynamic landscape.
Travel back with us to the vibrant 90s music scene, where we explore the legacy and evolution of music labels through Chris’s experiences, from aspiring artist to a key player at Tommy Boy Records. Learn how digital piracy transformed the industry and discover the cyclical nature of hip-hop, where periods of creative lull give way to groundbreaking artistry. We also discuss the resurgence of veteran artists and the inspiration they provide to the younger generation, all while emphasizing the importance of maintaining a unique and genuine voice in the ever-evolving world of hip-hop. This is more than just a podcast—it’s a masterclass in understanding the interplay between music, culture, and branding.
"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Creative and hosted by Merrick Chief Creative Officer, Tom Frank, hip hop artist and founder of Pendulum Ink, Mickey Factz, and music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to hear this thought-provoking discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on Unglossy .
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Between music streaming platforms, content
streaming platforms, digitalstreaming platforms.
I mean, it's all a matter oftime, right, and we're vying for
the attention of the consumer.
We're four guys, you know, on aZoom right and, as much as we
may want to consume everything,let's be honest we, we can't
(00:28):
from the top.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, I'm tom frank I'm mickey fax and I'm jeffrey
sledge welcome to unglossy, toconing, brand and culture.
I'm tom frank, partner andchief creative officer at merit
creative.
This is mickey fax, hip-hopartist and founder and CEO of
Pendulum Inc.
And that is Jeffrey Sledge, aseasoned music industry veteran
who has worked with some of thebiggest artists in the business.
(00:51):
We're here to explore themoments of vulnerability,
pivotal decisions and creativesparks that fuel the
relationship between brand andculture.
Get ready for athought-provoking journey into
the heart and soul of brandingthe unscripted, unfiltered and
truly unglossy truth.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, we got a good one today.
Yeah, I enjoyed thisconversation a lot.
Yeah, Chris is one of.
He's a pioneer man, legend inthe music industry, chris Atlas.
Great to have him here man,that was crazy man.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hey, mickey, I got a question for you, though I got a
question that popped in my headwhen we were talking about
Chris.
You told the story of meetingLupe and doing the first concert
in Tokyo.
Yes, right, yes, you're not theinspiration behind the song
Paris Tokyo, where he picks upthe phone and one of his guys
(01:43):
said let's go to Tokyo and makesome bread.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
No, so Paris and Tokyo was on that project that
he played for us at Cornerstone,so no, Ah, so you were not the
inspiration.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I thought I had figured something out right then
.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
and there, no, no, no , no.
But shout out to Cornerstoneman.
It was a great time yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely.
I'm glad we got to mentionCornerstone because it was an
important part of the musicbusiness for the time it was
around.
It really meant a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, all the labels used it, like all of them used
it, and it was bigger than music, though, which I didn't realize
.
I mean he talked a little bitabout a lot of other projects
that were music adjacent, butwe're, we're even bigger.
Which?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was blown away by this guy.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I mean oh yeah, and the parties, the parties, man,
you can't forget about, oh yeah,the party.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yeah, I totally forgot about it.
I mean, have a party.
I'd come up there sometime andit would just be like beer or
stuff.
You know they had all thesebrands sending them stuff all
the time.
Yeah, that's true, there wasalways stuff in the office like
liquor or Xboxes or soda,whatever it was.
Just the office was like a.
(02:56):
It was damn near like awarehouse, like I'm not talking
about size-wise, what I'm sayingwas that much stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That's the great thing about marketing.
You got to experience whateveryou're marketing.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Exactly, you got to send yourself cases or something
you know, so you've experiencedthat, tom.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
You've experienced cases of product and great, you
know things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I used to do all the marketing for the Girl Scouts of
America and we would have moreGirl.
Scout cookies sitting in thisoffice than you could possibly
imagine.
But yeah, some liquor brands, alot of food brands.
Right, I mean I didn't buymaple syrup for about 10 years
because and I think I justdrained the last bottle, I'm out
(03:38):
I haven't worked with them inprobably five years.
I stored up a lot of maplesyrup.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
It's a trip, how you get that free stuff, like I
remember people coming to thelabel all the time.
They come to the label all thetime and just giving people.
You know, we always had cdsaround because it was that was
what we did.
So you'd be like here's the newbackstreet boys or here's the
new britney or the new r kellyor whatever it was, and people
were like actually, who gavethem like a gold bar?
Yeah, drawers full of thatstuff.
(04:05):
It would be nothing, they'd belike oh my god, can I get one of
those too?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
yo, I took a lot of stuff because because at that
moment, at that time, jive wasunderneath sony yeah so all of
the michael jackson stuff?
Oh gosh, I snatched everything.
You kidding me.
I still got some crazy MichaelJackson stuff and some Prince
(04:30):
stuff, because Prince was theretoo.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
No, no, prince and Warner Prince and Warner
Brothers.
Oh, he's on Warner Brothers,prince and.
Warner Brothers.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You must have been walking into multiple offices
grabbing stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
He probably was he probably was, I was a demon I
was a demon.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Hey, I'll say this about Chris to bring it back
around.
I loved hearing about hisjourney, though, from working
with big companies to kind ofgoing out on his own, Because I
felt like it was very parallel.
I've been in that sameexperience.
I've worked for a lot of bigcompanies.
Now I'm out on my own and youdefinitely start to see things a
little differently.
But it's also inspirational,again, you're like back to the
(05:04):
cool work that you want to doand I don't know.
I love that, his journey thathe went through, and now that
he's at Fat Beats I can't waitto talk to him.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
I got lots of ideas I got lots of ideas about the
storefront.
He's going to do really wellover there.
He's going to do very well yeah.
I mean he already is.
He started off with Common andPete Rock.
I mean that's crazy.
That's crazy.
That's the first joint he did.
So it's lit now.
It's lit, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That is great, that is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
Speaker 1 (05:33):
All right, let's dive in.
Enjoy our conversation withChris Atlas.
Unglossy is brought to you byMerrick Creative.
Looking to skyrocket yourbusiness's visibility and drive
(05:59):
growth All right, fellas, andunlock your brand's potential.
Learn more at meritcreativecom.
And now back to the show.
All right, fellas.
We are honored to be joined bya true leader in his field,
whose expertise has shaped thecareer of numerous artists and
transformed the landscape ofmusic marketing.
Our guest today is none otherthan Chris Atlas, a seasoned
(06:20):
music industry executive withover two decades of experience.
Three, chris has held keypositions at major labels like
Warner Records, def Jam, tommyBoy Records, cornerstone
Promotion, and currently is thepresident of Fat Beats, a
renowned distributor and retailbrand in the music world.
Chris has been instrumental intransforming the careers of
numerous artists and has awealth of knowledge about the
(06:41):
ever-evolving music industry.
Today, we'll be discussing hisjourney, the challenges and the
opportunities in the musicbusiness, and his vision the
future of Fat Beats.
Welcome, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Man, I'm great.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
That was a dope intro , wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But you forgot the most important thing in my bio.
Please tell me you know I'm afriend of Jeff Slash.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Aw, this dude, that's my guy right there.
I'm a friend of Jeff Slash,that's my guy right there.
One of the only music people Ireally like Wow, that's big.
I wanted to have Chris on herebecause he's one of the last
people from my era that's insideWell, you're kind of outside
(07:22):
now, but you're obviously reallyin the mix.
He can also discuss inside outand he can also really discuss,
like, the changes of the musicbusiness.
But we're going to start withhis journey.
But I just think it's realimportant to have him on here
because there's a lot of peoplethat he can inspire and that
he's helped out a lot along theway.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So let's start there.
Where does the love of musiccome from?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Oh man, the love of music it.
It actually comes fromelementary school.
High school.
I used to DJ.
I used to have my own rap group, which I don't talk about.
What was the name?
Speaker 4 (07:59):
of the group.
What was the name of the groupNah?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
come on chill the group.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
What was?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
the name of the group .
Speaker 2 (08:12):
But you know, listen, I think, like, I think, like
most, you know most.
You know young people from thebronx, you know we all had our
aspirations, you know, uh, ofeither being an artist rapping
you know performing right andyou know I of either being an
artist rapping you knowperforming Right, and you know I
was no exception, right.
And you know music has alwaysbeen important in my family.
Little known fact, my uncle,excuse me, my cousin by blood,
(08:38):
is actually Mr Ness Scorpio fromGrandmaster Flash and the
Furious Five.
And you know, again, I think hiphop has always just kind of
been rooted, you know, in me,just from, you know, adolescence
.
So, as I, you know, grew up andrealized, you know what, I'm
not going to be an artist.
You know what I mean.
(08:59):
I went to the business side,you know, and you know,
fortunately it's a side that hasled me on, you know, almost 30
plus year career of just growth,opportunity, hard work, hustle.
You know, pain, strife, success, friendships, all of the above
(09:20):
you know.
All of the above, you know, butagain, truly, truly blessed to
work in music.
And man, I think the storiesand history that I have, you
know, is kind of reflective ofme still being here, so tell me
a quick question because I don'tknow if you ever told me this
how did you get the first job?
(09:41):
Well, I had a period in college,right, and this was, uh, when I
was at city college, where Ihad a few internships, and you
know, I interned at emi,interned at, uh, giant records.
But my real real break hey,remember that one right, my real
real break was when I got theinternship at Tommy Boy and that
(10:03):
was 1995.
And I was doing a compilationseries called Jock Rock, jock
Jams which at that time andSledge, you remember this, like
those compilations were likedouble platinum, yeah, mtv,
party To Go, jock Rock, jockJams.
I remember those and it waslike before streaming and before
(10:27):
now and before.
You know all of those things,right.
So, um, those compilations werea big revenue, uh, driver for
tommy boy, and but it for me itwas like a way to get in the
door.
And once I was in the door, Ijust, you know, I went, went,
went, went crazy relative togetting a position doing college
(10:48):
radio promotion, which at thattime, you know, in the mid 90s,
college radio was like as big asmixed show radio and you know
any rotation.
So, and, tommy Boy, just giventhe nature of the label, college
radio was very important.
So that was like the thing thatreally kind of put me on the
(11:08):
path and, you know, being thatTommy Boy, I kind of grew within
within the ranks from collegeradio to make show radio to I
did A&R at one point.
At one point I had my ownventure via Tommy Boy called
Tommy Boy Black Label, which wasan idea that I had came up with
.
Relative to there was a periodwhere Tommy Boy was very
(11:31):
mainstream and Tommy Boy BlackLabel was focused on independent
, you know underground hip hop.
So it was a way to kind ofbalance out the roster from the
you know the mainstream actsthat Tommy Boy had become famous
for at that time.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Who was on Black?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
What artists Da Far, Eye Jigmasters, Natural Elements
, Self Scientific Gemini, theGifted One, we were putting out
singles.
We put out singles and certainacts got to the level where we
(12:11):
put out a couple albums.
But we had quite a few actsCover man, we had a few acts on
Black.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Label Shout out to A-Butter from Natural Elements.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, shout out to those guys, they still doing
their thing too.
They're still doing their thing.
And then, Jeff, that was aroundthe time where we linked up,
because of course, you was atJive, yeah, yeah.
And Tommy Boy and Jive.
They were like rivals.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Yeah, exactly, rivals , that kind of started around
the same time and trying topoach people from each other and
all that shit.
Y'all had a dope staff though.
You had Dante, you had you, youhad Monica Lynch, you had Ian.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You had a great staff over there, albie Ian, you had
a great staff over there.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Fat man School On the back of the source every month.
Y'all was popular.
You had great artists tooDaylog, Tifa, Naughty.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Daylog House of Pain.
You know Coolio man Coolio was,you know was huge.
You had Coolio.
Yeah, man Coolio.
Coolio was on Tommy Boy, youknow.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
That's one of my all-time favorites right there.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, and then you know we had, you know, tommy Boy
had some successful venturesvia Penalty, and Neil Levine
Definitely Nori Capone andNoriega Noriega, you know.
So you know we definitely had agreat run.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
You did your thing over there man.
You definitely did your thing.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
What happened to Tommy it's like all things
relative to the company waseventually absorbed and sold to
Warner Music Group and they hadthat period where Warner had the
catalog.
There were certain acts thatWarner kind of looked at
(14:00):
relative to within the groupOkay, who's going to Elektra,
who's going to Atlantic or who'sgoing where?
You know what I mean and youknow, like all things, I mean it
had a great run.
But you know at that time,which was when I left Tommy boy,
I think it was like 2000, 2001,that you know the business was
going through a change relativeto Napster and what Napster was
(14:24):
doing to the business.
You know what I mean, jeff, youremember this.
It wasn't a good period Becausethe piracy that was happening,
just the indecisiveness relativeto what commercial retail was
going to look like, you know itjust fold it into into warner
(14:50):
music group and you know,luckily great to say, you know,
tom silverman eventually did gettommy boy back.
Um reservoir has tommy boy'scatalog now.
Thus, you know, daylight beingable to kind of free themselves
and get their music back up onstreaming.
so, you know, all in all, itturned out to be a happy ending,
(15:13):
I think you know, relative towhere the company was and how it
started, to the long history,and just now, where it is
relative to, I think they'redoing a great job in terms of
just kind of keeping the catalogand the legacy of Tommy Boy
alive via Reservoir, and thenthose acts that have been able
to get their, their music backare benefiting from it, and
(15:35):
daylight is definitely, you know, one of those examples I always
say, um, you know, do you know?
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I don't, I don't say none of us, but most of us
didn't know at the time, likeabout technology to that level,
like the.
What the label should have done, in my opinion, with napster is
, instead of trying to kill it,they should have put Sean Fannin
on a plane and said, come inthis office and explain what
this shit is, and who knows whatthat would have turned into.
But the fact that they tried tokill it, you know, cause all
(16:04):
that chaos and you know it endedup being what music business is
anyway.
You know, I was just scared ofhim, so they were just like we
got to sue this guy, get rid ofthis guy.
He's giving our music away freeinstead of explaining what he
was doing and how that couldhave, you know, benefited the
labels, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Did he create MP3s?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
He created file sharing, which is basically MP3s
.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, yeah, because I don't.
You know, I was freshlygraduated from high school and I
remember temping at an agencycalled I guess they're still
open PC Magazine and they wereright on 28th Street and Park
Avenue and they had a.
(16:52):
You know, I was in the mailroomand they had a computer in
there and I was introduced toNapster through them in the year
2000.
And the file sharing like I hadnever seen anything like this
before.
And I'm guessing it had you knowit was unbelievable, like all
kind of audio was available tome at the snap of a finger, like
(17:16):
freestyles that I had wanted.
Songs, rare songs all of thesethings were available to me and
you know I was in a company, sothe downloading wasn't what you
would experience if you did itat home.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yeah, slow.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
So it was really quickly, but I had never seen an
MP3 before that Before that.
So it was really quickly, but Ihad never seen an mp3 before
that.
Before that it was just cds ortapes but, it was really ces at
that time, yeah yeah, so, wouldyou say.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Though that napster era right, that threw everybody
into a loop.
How does that compare to them?
What's happening now withstreaming and?
Or is that comparable?
I mean because it seems likeit's the same kind of up in the
air like how are artists reallymaking money?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, I mean again, I think Napster in that period,
through labels in a loop, andagain to Jeff's point, rather
than embracing the technology,labels were trying to shut it
down right, and it actuallydidn't stop piracy, it didn't
stop bootlegging, it didn't stop, you know, any of the things
(18:19):
that you know in hindsight.
People were trying to get it todo.
If anything, it just amplifiedit and other companies kind of
popped up that were doing thesame thing.
So that created an, a periodwhere there was a scramble.
We got to figure this out.
We got to figure out how tomonetize in different ways,
(18:39):
which ushered in otherconversations, relative to 360
and just other aspects ofstrategic marketing and branding
opportunities.
Relative to how labels could,you know, help the bottom line
but then also try to figure outother ways to, you know, make up
for some of that revenue thatwas they were losing.
(19:02):
Relative to just physicalmarket you know deteriorating,
you know, and you know, you seeit or you saw it relative to the
diminishing of the retail, thephysical retail accounts both CD
and vinyl stores, and I thinkthe difference with it now and
some of this may be to thehindsight of what Napster in
(19:24):
that period was is that the, theownership and the aspect that
labels have relative tostreaming and the partnership
with streaming.
You know um, from a labelperspective kind of balances out
some of the revenue, but whenyou think about the actual
percentage of it relative tostreaming it's minuscule
(19:47):
compared to what the revenue wasin terms of actually the
physical sale.
You know that.
You know labels and artistswere able to actually monetize
against Right.
So, I think the benefit part ofthe benefit again is like okay,
we, we have the access, we havea way to actually, you know, uh,
(20:07):
revitalize and keep music uhrelevant and to the masses in
volume.
But the financial aspect ofwhat that volume is still hasn't
, you know, caught up to.
You know where the heydays ofthe record business used to be.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It's never going to go back right.
I mean that you're never goingto see that heyday ever again.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No, no, no, you won't .
I don't think you'll see thatbecause, again, it's just, not
only technology keeps evolving,but the volume of artists, you
know it keeps accelerating,right.
So, and with the volume ofartists increasing, the shelf
life per artist is decreasing.
(20:48):
You know what I mean, becausethere's just so much content you
know to absorb and you know,not to say, it was simpler times
, it's just an easy way to putit right, but there weren't as
many options relative to, uh,how we're vying for people's
attention, right, there's sobetween music streaming
(21:13):
platforms, content streamingplatforms, digital streaming
platforms I mean, it's all amatter of time, right, and we're
vying for the attention of theconsumer, where we're four guys,
you know, on a on, on a zoom,right, and as much as we may
want to consume everything youcan't just be honest?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
we we can't you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So not even close.
It's not even close, right.
So it's really comes down tolike one your effectiveness in
terms of how you can penetrate.
You know, cut through right and, and you know, clear the noise
if you will, so that you knowyou, you're, you know, at the
head of the class if you will.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So how has that happened that you've been in
this industry for a long time,right?
Your approach to marketing andgetting artists out there has, I
assume, dramatically changedfrom when you first started to
debt today.
Like, what, what's theevolution of that change?
Like how are you breakingthrough?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I mean my, my evolution as a marketer is
always reflective of the climateand the market and utilizing
the, the, uh, whether it's tech,whether it's the, the, the
capabilities that I that are atmy disposal Right, um, and I I
feel, I feel like when it wasthe 90s, 2000s, right and Jeff
can attest to this like it tookus a minute to read a record
(22:42):
right, because we had to talk tothe DJs, we had to see how it
resonated per market Talk to theretailers.
You know, in some cases talk tothe retailers, some cases go to
the market.
You know what I mean and see it.
Versus now, with technology andthe benefits of social media
and streaming, and you can seeit like that.
(23:03):
You know what I mean, you cansee it, you know much quicker.
So how you utilize that, youknow what I mean is important,
right, but I think the one thingthat's always been important
for me is the level of qualitywith that artist or with that
brand or you know, particularlyjust speaking on the artist side
(23:24):
, right, the point of view, theperspective, you know, the
quality and quality, again, isall relative to, and quality
again is all relative to pointof view, right, but in
understanding that,understanding what the artist's
voice is, who their audience isand who they're speaking to,
right, and to me that's themeasure of how you that are
(23:53):
groundbreaking, criticallyacclaimed, right to artists that
are SoundCloud hits orSoundCloud waves.
You know what I mean.
But the one thing thatresonated was there was a clear
perspective, there was a clearvoice, right, and there was a
(24:15):
clear consumer that thoseartists were speaking to and the
level of success is allrelative.
Some did gold, some didplatinum, some did
multi-platinum right, but therewas a level of what the music
was, the, the, the perspectivethat the artist was, you know,
trying to put out there in themarketplace, and then how we
effectively marketed around thatthat's what I find harder today
(24:36):
is like finding artists, likeyou said, that have that
perspective and like genuinelyhave that perspective, as
opposed to putting out shitbecause that's what they think
is hot.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
It's like okay, I'm putting this out because this
kind of sounds like little baby,this kind of sounds like gunner
or whoever maybe, and this outbecause this kind of sounds like
Lil Baby, this kind of soundslike Gunner or whoever it may be
, and this will get me on, asopposed to like I'm putting out
these.
I'm making music because thisis how I feel and this is what
I'm trying to say.
We have that conversation withartists nowadays, so what are
you really trying to say withyour music?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They don't know they're like.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Must be hot.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Must be hot, you, they don't know, I'm like bro,
but the ones that rise above,like you said, whether it be any
genre, whether it be BillieEilish or Future or Anderson Pi,
whoever it is, they all have aperspective that they have, and
it's kind of like nobody else'sperspective.
It's their thing, and it's hardto get that across nowadays,
like you said, so much contenteverybody's trying to get on.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
There's no gatekeepers.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
No more either.
There's not many gatekeepers.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Is that tough, though ?
When you think about marketingstrategy, you've got to balance
what the vision and what theartist is trying to do, but also
what you know breaks throughfrom a marketing perspective.
How do you balance the two,because you might be way out
here, but you're trying tomarket them in a way to have
success.
(26:01):
Is there a balance there, orhow do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I mean, I think part of that balance comes from the
understanding between the artistand or the label in terms of
what's our long-term goal withthis right.
And I think that if, whenever Ispeak to artists or labels or
partners, I'm always like,listen, this is a marathon and
(26:28):
not a sprint, Right, and youhave to understand that from day
one.
And you may be in a situationwhere you get an overnight
success and it's rocking, whichmost labels want that success,
and it's rocking, which mostlabels want, that Most artists
want that Right.
But the reality of it is ittakes time, right.
(26:49):
It takes time, you know, toreally even penetrate and have a
level of success.
You know that is of the volumesthat is substantial.
And even those artists whereyou think they will fly by night
and where did they come from?
They weren't reallyfly-by-night.
You know what I mean.
And there's a number of thoseSoundCloud artists and I use
that genre in particular becausewe all know that was a period
(27:12):
where it looked like where didthese guys?
come from and they wereeverywhere and it was explosive,
but they were in their ownunderbelly right.
And then, when that wave moved,it moved and everybody was on
you know what I mean and to me,I think that's why you know
(27:32):
you'll.
We always have theseconversations of, oh, hip-hop is
dead and hip-hop is this, and Inever feel like hip-hop is dead
.
I always feel like hip hip hopis always going to continue to
evolve, right, because itevolves with the market, it
evolves with the listeners, withthe kids.
You know what I mean.
And it may be in a low rightand, jeff, you can attest to
(27:53):
this.
We've always seen hip hop haveperiods of lows, right, but
that's when the true artiststhat are about their creativity
and their artistry have anopportunity to shine.
And I almost feel like we're inthat period now where it's
almost like, ok, you know,streaming isn't what it, what it
(28:16):
was for.
You know a lot of hip hop acts,right, not saying there aren't
success, you know, and there'sbig names out there, right, but
just in general, right, and partof that, I think, is reflective
of there's a creative evolution.
You know that's that'shappening Right, relative to
whether there's a new soundthat's going to emerge, whether
(28:38):
there's an old school wave andmovement that's happening and
we're seeing a lot of.
You know our OG and veteranacts, you know, dropping great
product, you know, and you knowputting the emphasis on artistry
and I think that there's anawareness, you know, from the
younger generation on that whichI think will inspire.
You know, whatever that nexttrend you know music is going to
(29:00):
be.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I agree, I agree, agree.
I think, like you said, we'vealways seen lulz and you always
got the hip-hop is dead people.
But I think the hip-hop is deadpeople for the most part.
They could, they um, stopevolving.
And that's cool, because youknow life happens.
So you might be like I'm notmoving past 2006, that was my
era.
You know, 50 cent in themniggas, and that's what I'm.
(29:21):
I them niggas.
That's it for me.
So anything that comes afterthat is garbage.
I don't like this young shit, Idon't like these mumble rappers
and you either keep going withit or you kind of just get off
the train right there and yousay it's dead.
But it's because it's dead toyou.
But it's not dead, it's justdead to you.
But people keep growing.
(29:43):
Like you know, I spices like infive years people be like
that's old now.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
It just keeps evolving, it keeps growing, it
keeps evolving, you know, yeah,yeah you, you would say that you
really think hip-hop is at alull right now, like, okay, I
guess there's two ways to lookat that.
There's the music side of it,but then there is just the
general popularity.
Like before we, you, before westarted recording, we were
talking about snoop at theolympics and I think hip-hop and
some of the representatives ofhip-hop are at an all-time high
(30:10):
right now in terms of popularity, in terms of being on
mainstream, mainstream channels.
I mean, I think we're at anabsolute height right now when
you, when you look at it fromthat perspective not necessarily
the music, the new music that'scoming out- when I say low, I'm
talking in terms of theartistry aspect of it, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
The music the pure music side of it, the music
aspect of it, not the popularity, you know, aspect of it,
because I think that hip-hop isas popular as it can be and, to
your point, right, there'sseveral hip hop artists that are
still on major brands and showsand tours and opportunities,
right.
(30:52):
But I think that when you lookacross the board, in terms of
the footprint that hip hop salesis having in general, right,
it's at a low, and I'm nottalking about Drake and Kendrick
and the superstars right, I'm,you know, because the superstars
are superstars and they arealways going to do what they do.
(31:15):
I'm talking about the volume atwhich the a lot of the core and
developing acts that used todominate the chart had presence.
That is at a lull, and I thinkthat that's reflective of going
from a single format to albums,going to what people are looking
(31:39):
for relative to is it based onsingles or is there a real album
demand, you know?
And also going back to how thecreative and the narrative in
terms of some of the hip hopartists, is going to continue to
evolve, like, what's the nexttrend?
I mean, I mean, if we had acrystal ball, you know what I
(32:01):
mean We'd all be billionaires.
Relative to what the next trendis in hip hop, I don't think
anyone can kind of predict ituntil you actually see it and it
emerges.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Well I want to talk about.
I'm going to swing back a bitmore to the career stuff.
So at the Tommy Boy you went toCornerstone, correct?
Yes, so what was thattransition like?
And tell us about Cornerstone,because it doesn't exist anymore
.
People might not know.
And rest in peace to thefounder of it, Rob Stone, who
(32:32):
passed away fairly recently, butit was a very important thing.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I mean, you know Cornerstone at that time
and this was what late 2000,early 2001, when I actually went
there, but it had started, youknow, in the late 90s as a, you
know, hip hop, r&b andalternative rock promotion
company, because both Robalternative rock promotion
company, because both Rob andJohn Cohen, the founders of
(33:06):
Cornerstone, that was theirbackground, given Rob was big on
the hip hop, r&b, radiopromotion side and John on the
alternative side.
So at that time the companyfocused on, you know,
independent, you know radiopromotion, marketing and at that
(33:27):
time, really building out astrategic, you know branding
aspect of the company, whichthis is what?
20 years ago, a little morethan that Strategic marketing in
music and entertainmentdefinitely wasn't as common, you
know, as it is now, like it'san everyday thing now, but back
then it was, it was newterritory.
(33:49):
And, you know, in addition tothe radio marketing and
promotion, the corporatebranding and promotion, you know
there were major, huge clientsSprite, xbox, coca-cola, boost,
mobile where a big part of whatwe did at Cornerstone and while
I was there, was actuallybridging that gap between
(34:12):
corporate marketing and musicmarketing and coming up with
creative campaigns utilizingmusic artists.
We created two opportunities.
We created brandingopportunities, sponsors of
opportunities, product placementopportunities, all of those
things.
And then, within Cornerstone,uh, the Fader magazine was also
(34:33):
born.
So Fader is a sister, a sistercompany to Cornerstone, um, and
again, I think, fader being oneof those groundbreaking, you
know, music, lifestyle andculture magazines of all genres,
and Fader is still around andCornerstone actually still
around, it's just, it's just ona different scale than what it
(34:57):
was, you know.
And again, I think a lot ofthat was relative to just
strategic branding, marketing,promotion that was part one of
our conversation with ChrisAtlas.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Alright, folks, that's our show.
Tune in to Unglossing theCoding Brand and Culture on
Apple Podcasts, spotify orYouTube, and follow us on
Instagram at UnglossyPod, tojoin the conversation.
Until next time, I'm Tom Frank,I'm Jeffrey Sledge, or YouTube
and follow us on Instagram atunglossypod to join the
conversation Until next time.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
I'm Tom Frank.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Smicky, that was good .
This week on Unglossy .
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Between music streaming platforms, content
streaming platforms, digitalstreaming platforms.
I mean, it's all a matter oftime, right, and we're vying for
the attention of the consumer.
We're four guys, you know, on aZoom right and, as much as we
may want to consume everything,let's be honest we, we can't
(00:28):
from the top.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, I'm tom frank I'm mickey fax and I'm jeffrey
sledge welcome to unglossy, toconing, brand and culture.
I'm tom frank, partner andchief creative officer at merit
creative.
This is mickey fax, hip-hopartist and founder and CEO of
Pendulum Inc.
And that is Jeffrey Sledge, aseasoned music industry veteran
who has worked with some of thebiggest artists in the business.
(00:51):
We're here to explore themoments of vulnerability,
pivotal decisions and creativesparks that fuel the
relationship between brand andculture.
Get ready for athought-provoking journey into
the heart and soul of brandingthe unscripted, unfiltered and
truly unglossy truth.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Hey, we got a good one today.
Yeah, I enjoyed thisconversation a lot.
Yeah, Chris is one of.
He's a pioneer man, legend inthe music industry, chris Atlas.
Great to have him here man,that was crazy man.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Hey, mickey, I got a question for you, though I got a
question that popped in my headwhen we were talking about
Chris.
You told the story of meetingLupe and doing the first concert
in Tokyo.
Yes, right, yes, you're not theinspiration behind the song
Paris Tokyo, where he picks upthe phone and one of his guys
(01:43):
said let's go to Tokyo and makesome bread.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
No, so Paris and Tokyo was on that project that
he played for us at Cornerstone,so no, Ah, so you were not the
inspiration.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I thought I had figured something out right then
.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
and there, no, no, no , no.
But shout out to Cornerstoneman.
It was a great time yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely.
I'm glad we got to mentionCornerstone because it was an
important part of the musicbusiness for the time it was
around.
It really meant a lot.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, all the labels used it, like all of them used
it, and it was bigger than music, though, which I didn't realize
.
I mean he talked a little bitabout a lot of other projects
that were music adjacent, butwe're, we're even bigger.
Which?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
I was blown away by this guy.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
I mean oh yeah, and the parties, the parties, man,
you can't forget about, oh yeah,the party.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
Yeah, I totally forgot about it.
I mean, have a party.
I'd come up there sometime andit would just be like beer or
stuff.
You know they had all thesebrands sending them stuff all
the time.
Yeah, that's true, there wasalways stuff in the office like
liquor or Xboxes or soda,whatever it was.
Just the office was like a.
(02:56):
It was damn near like awarehouse, like I'm not talking
about size-wise, what I'm sayingwas that much stuff in there.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That's the great thing about marketing.
You got to experience whateveryou're marketing.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
Exactly, you got to send yourself cases or something
you know, so you've experiencedthat, tom.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
You've experienced cases of product and great, you
know things like that.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I used to do all the marketing for the Girl Scouts of
America and we would have moreGirl.
Scout cookies sitting in thisoffice than you could possibly
imagine.
But yeah, some liquor brands, alot of food brands.
Right, I mean I didn't buymaple syrup for about 10 years
because and I think I justdrained the last bottle, I'm out
(03:38):
I haven't worked with them inprobably five years.
I stored up a lot of maplesyrup.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
It's a trip, how you get that free stuff, like I
remember people coming to thelabel all the time.
They come to the label all thetime and just giving people.
You know, we always had cdsaround because it was that was
what we did.
So you'd be like here's the newbackstreet boys or here's the
new britney or the new r kellyor whatever it was, and people
were like actually, who gavethem like a gold bar?
Yeah, drawers full of thatstuff.
(04:05):
It would be nothing, they'd belike oh my god, can I get one of
those too?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
yo, I took a lot of stuff because because at that
moment, at that time, jive wasunderneath sony yeah so all of
the michael jackson stuff?
Oh gosh, I snatched everything.
You kidding me.
I still got some crazy MichaelJackson stuff and some Prince
(04:30):
stuff, because Prince was theretoo.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
No, no, prince and Warner Prince and Warner
Brothers.
Oh, he's on Warner Brothers,prince and.
Warner Brothers.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
You must have been walking into multiple offices
grabbing stuff.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
He probably was he probably was, I was a demon I
was a demon.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Hey, I'll say this about Chris to bring it back
around.
I loved hearing about hisjourney, though, from working
with big companies to kind ofgoing out on his own, Because I
felt like it was very parallel.
I've been in that sameexperience.
I've worked for a lot of bigcompanies.
Now I'm out on my own and youdefinitely start to see things a
little differently.
But it's also inspirational,again, you're like back to the
(05:04):
cool work that you want to doand I don't know.
I love that, his journey thathe went through, and now that
he's at Fat Beats I can't waitto talk to him.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
I got lots of ideas I got lots of ideas about the
storefront.
He's going to do really wellover there.
He's going to do very well yeah.
I mean he already is.
He started off with Common andPete Rock.
I mean that's crazy.
That's crazy.
That's the first joint he did.
So it's lit now.
It's lit, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
That is great, that is unbelievable.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .
Speaker 1 (05:33):
All right, let's dive in.
Enjoy our conversation withChris Atlas.
Unglossy is brought to you byMerrick Creative.
Looking to skyrocket yourbusiness's visibility and drive
(05:59):
growth All right, fellas, andunlock your brand's potential.
Learn more at meritcreativecom.
And now back to the show.
All right, fellas.
We are honored to be joined bya true leader in his field,
whose expertise has shaped thecareer of numerous artists and
transformed the landscape ofmusic marketing.
Our guest today is none otherthan Chris Atlas, a seasoned
(06:20):
music industry executive withover two decades of experience.
Three, chris has held keypositions at major labels like
Warner Records, def Jam, tommyBoy Records, cornerstone
Promotion, and currently is thepresident of Fat Beats, a
renowned distributor and retailbrand in the music world.
Chris has been instrumental intransforming the careers of
numerous artists and has awealth of knowledge about the
(06:41):
ever-evolving music industry.
Today, we'll be discussing hisjourney, the challenges and the
opportunities in the musicbusiness, and his vision the
future of Fat Beats.
Welcome, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Man, I'm great.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
That was a dope intro , wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But you forgot the most important thing in my bio.
Please tell me you know I'm afriend of Jeff Slash.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Aw, this dude, that's my guy right there.
I'm a friend of Jeff Slash,that's my guy right there.
One of the only music people Ireally like Wow, that's big.
I wanted to have Chris on herebecause he's one of the last
people from my era that's insideWell, you're kind of outside
(07:22):
now, but you're obviously reallyin the mix.
He can also discuss inside outand he can also really discuss,
like, the changes of the musicbusiness.
But we're going to start withhis journey.
But I just think it's realimportant to have him on here
because there's a lot of peoplethat he can inspire and that
he's helped out a lot along theway.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
So let's start there.
Where does the love of musiccome from?
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Oh man, the love of music it.
It actually comes fromelementary school.
High school.
I used to DJ.
I used to have my own rap group, which I don't talk about.
What was the name?
Speaker 4 (07:59):
of the group.
What was the name of the groupNah?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
come on chill the group.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
What was?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
the name of the group .
Speaker 2 (08:12):
But you know, listen, I think, like, I think, like
most, you know most.
You know young people from thebronx, you know we all had our
aspirations, you know, uh, ofeither being an artist rapping
you know performing right andyou know I of either being an
artist rapping you knowperforming Right, and you know I
was no exception, right.
And you know music has alwaysbeen important in my family.
Little known fact, my uncle,excuse me, my cousin by blood,
(08:38):
is actually Mr Ness Scorpio fromGrandmaster Flash and the
Furious Five.
And you know, again, I think hiphop has always just kind of
been rooted, you know, in me,just from, you know, adolescence
.
So, as I, you know, grew up andrealized, you know what, I'm
not going to be an artist.
You know what I mean.
(08:59):
I went to the business side,you know, and you know,
fortunately it's a side that hasled me on, you know, almost 30
plus year career of just growth,opportunity, hard work, hustle.
You know, pain, strife, success, friendships, all of the above
(09:20):
you know.
All of the above, you know, butagain, truly, truly blessed to
work in music.
And man, I think the storiesand history that I have, you
know, is kind of reflective ofme still being here, so tell me
a quick question because I don'tknow if you ever told me this
how did you get the first job?
(09:41):
Well, I had a period in college,right, and this was, uh, when I
was at city college, where Ihad a few internships, and you
know, I interned at emi,interned at, uh, giant records.
But my real real break hey,remember that one right, my real
real break was when I got theinternship at Tommy Boy and that
(10:03):
was 1995.
And I was doing a compilationseries called Jock Rock, jock
Jams which at that time andSledge, you remember this, like
those compilations were likedouble platinum, yeah, mtv,
party To Go, jock Rock, jockJams.
I remember those and it waslike before streaming and before
(10:27):
now and before.
You know all of those things,right.
So, um, those compilations werea big revenue, uh, driver for
tommy boy, and but it for me itwas like a way to get in the
door.
And once I was in the door, Ijust, you know, I went, went,
went, went crazy relative togetting a position doing college
(10:48):
radio promotion, which at thattime, you know, in the mid 90s,
college radio was like as big asmixed show radio and you know
any rotation.
So, and, tommy Boy, just giventhe nature of the label, college
radio was very important.
So that was like the thing thatreally kind of put me on the
(11:08):
path and, you know, being thatTommy Boy, I kind of grew within
within the ranks from collegeradio to make show radio to I
did A&R at one point.
At one point I had my ownventure via Tommy Boy called
Tommy Boy Black Label, which wasan idea that I had came up with
.
Relative to there was a periodwhere Tommy Boy was very
(11:31):
mainstream and Tommy Boy BlackLabel was focused on independent
, you know underground hip hop.
So it was a way to kind ofbalance out the roster from the
you know the mainstream actsthat Tommy Boy had become famous
for at that time.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Who was on Black?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
What artists Da Far, Eye Jigmasters, Natural Elements
, Self Scientific Gemini, theGifted One, we were putting out
singles.
We put out singles and certainacts got to the level where we
(12:11):
put out a couple albums.
But we had quite a few actsCover man, we had a few acts on
Black.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Label Shout out to A-Butter from Natural Elements.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, shout out to those guys, they still doing
their thing too.
They're still doing their thing.
And then, Jeff, that was aroundthe time where we linked up,
because of course, you was atJive, yeah, yeah.
And Tommy Boy and Jive.
They were like rivals.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Yeah, exactly, rivals , that kind of started around
the same time and trying topoach people from each other and
all that shit.
Y'all had a dope staff though.
You had Dante, you had you, youhad Monica Lynch, you had Ian.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
You had a great staff over there, albie Ian, you had
a great staff over there.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Fat man School On the back of the source every month.
Y'all was popular.
You had great artists tooDaylog, Tifa, Naughty.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Daylog House of Pain.
You know Coolio man Coolio was,you know was huge.
You had Coolio.
Yeah, man Coolio.
Coolio was on Tommy Boy, youknow.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
That's one of my all-time favorites right there.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, and then you know we had, you know, tommy Boy
had some successful venturesvia Penalty, and Neil Levine
Definitely Nori Capone andNoriega Noriega, you know.
So you know we definitely had agreat run.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
You did your thing over there man.
You definitely did your thing.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
What happened to Tommy it's like all things
relative to the company waseventually absorbed and sold to
Warner Music Group and they hadthat period where Warner had the
catalog.
There were certain acts thatWarner kind of looked at
(14:00):
relative to within the groupOkay, who's going to Elektra,
who's going to Atlantic or who'sgoing where?
You know what I mean and youknow, like all things, I mean it
had a great run.
But you know at that time,which was when I left Tommy boy,
I think it was like 2000, 2001,that you know the business was
going through a change relativeto Napster and what Napster was
(14:24):
doing to the business.
You know what I mean, jeff, youremember this.
It wasn't a good period Becausethe piracy that was happening,
just the indecisiveness relativeto what commercial retail was
going to look like, you know itjust fold it into into warner
(14:50):
music group and you know,luckily great to say, you know,
tom silverman eventually did gettommy boy back.
Um reservoir has tommy boy'scatalog now.
Thus, you know, daylight beingable to kind of free themselves
and get their music back up onstreaming.
so, you know, all in all, itturned out to be a happy ending,
(15:13):
I think you know, relative towhere the company was and how it
started, to the long history,and just now, where it is
relative to, I think they'redoing a great job in terms of
just kind of keeping the catalogand the legacy of Tommy Boy
alive via Reservoir, and thenthose acts that have been able
to get their, their music backare benefiting from it, and
(15:35):
daylight is definitely, you know, one of those examples I always
say, um, you know, do you know?
Speaker 4 (15:41):
I don't, I don't say none of us, but most of us
didn't know at the time, likeabout technology to that level,
like the.
What the label should have done, in my opinion, with napster is
, instead of trying to kill it,they should have put Sean Fannin
on a plane and said, come inthis office and explain what
this shit is, and who knows whatthat would have turned into.
But the fact that they tried tokill it, you know, cause all
(16:04):
that chaos and you know it endedup being what music business is
anyway.
You know, I was just scared ofhim, so they were just like we
got to sue this guy, get rid ofthis guy.
He's giving our music away freeinstead of explaining what he
was doing and how that couldhave, you know, benefited the
labels, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Did he create MP3s?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
He created file sharing, which is basically MP3s
.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Yeah, yeah, because I don't.
You know, I was freshlygraduated from high school and I
remember temping at an agencycalled I guess they're still
open PC Magazine and they wereright on 28th Street and Park
Avenue and they had a.
(16:52):
You know, I was in the mailroomand they had a computer in
there and I was introduced toNapster through them in the year
2000.
And the file sharing like I hadnever seen anything like this
before.
And I'm guessing it had you knowit was unbelievable, like all
kind of audio was available tome at the snap of a finger, like
(17:16):
freestyles that I had wanted.
Songs, rare songs all of thesethings were available to me and
you know I was in a company, sothe downloading wasn't what you
would experience if you did itat home.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Yeah, slow.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
So it was really quickly, but I had never seen an
MP3 before that Before that.
So it was really quickly, but Ihad never seen an mp3 before
that.
Before that it was just cds ortapes but, it was really ces at
that time, yeah yeah, so, wouldyou say.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Though that napster era right, that threw everybody
into a loop.
How does that compare to them?
What's happening now withstreaming and?
Or is that comparable?
I mean because it seems likeit's the same kind of up in the
air like how are artists reallymaking money?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Well, I mean again, I think Napster in that period,
through labels in a loop, andagain to Jeff's point, rather
than embracing the technology,labels were trying to shut it
down right, and it actuallydidn't stop piracy, it didn't
stop bootlegging, it didn't stop, you know, any of the things
(18:19):
that you know in hindsight.
People were trying to get it todo.
If anything, it just amplifiedit and other companies kind of
popped up that were doing thesame thing.
So that created an, a periodwhere there was a scramble.
We got to figure this out.
We got to figure out how tomonetize in different ways,
(18:39):
which ushered in otherconversations, relative to 360
and just other aspects ofstrategic marketing and branding
opportunities.
Relative to how labels could,you know, help the bottom line
but then also try to figure outother ways to, you know, make up
for some of that revenue thatwas they were losing.
(19:02):
Relative to just physicalmarket you know deteriorating,
you know, and you know, you seeit or you saw it relative to the
diminishing of the retail, thephysical retail accounts both CD
and vinyl stores, and I thinkthe difference with it now and
some of this may be to thehindsight of what Napster in
(19:24):
that period was is that the, theownership and the aspect that
labels have relative tostreaming and the partnership
with streaming.
You know um, from a labelperspective kind of balances out
some of the revenue, but whenyou think about the actual
percentage of it relative tostreaming it's minuscule
(19:47):
compared to what the revenue wasin terms of actually the
physical sale.
You know that.
You know labels and artistswere able to actually monetize
against Right.
So, I think the benefit part ofthe benefit again is like okay,
we, we have the access, we havea way to actually, you know, uh,
(20:07):
revitalize and keep music uhrelevant and to the masses in
volume.
But the financial aspect ofwhat that volume is still hasn't
, you know, caught up to.
You know where the heydays ofthe record business used to be.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
It's never going to go back right.
I mean that you're never goingto see that heyday ever again.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
No, no, no, you won't .
I don't think you'll see thatbecause, again, it's just, not
only technology keeps evolving,but the volume of artists, you
know it keeps accelerating,right.
So, and with the volume ofartists increasing, the shelf
life per artist is decreasing.
(20:48):
You know what I mean, becausethere's just so much content you
know to absorb and you know,not to say, it was simpler times
, it's just an easy way to putit right, but there weren't as
many options relative to, uh,how we're vying for people's
attention, right, there's sobetween music streaming
(21:13):
platforms, content streamingplatforms, digital streaming
platforms I mean, it's all amatter of time, right, and we're
vying for the attention of theconsumer, where we're four guys,
you know, on a on, on a zoom,right, and as much as we may
want to consume everything youcan't just be honest?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
we we can't you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
So not even close.
It's not even close, right.
So it's really comes down tolike one your effectiveness in
terms of how you can penetrate.
You know, cut through right and, and you know, clear the noise
if you will, so that you knowyou, you're, you know, at the
head of the class if you will.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
So how has that happened that you've been in
this industry for a long time,right?
Your approach to marketing andgetting artists out there has, I
assume, dramatically changedfrom when you first started to
debt today.
Like, what, what's theevolution of that change?
Like how are you breakingthrough?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I mean my, my evolution as a marketer is
always reflective of the climateand the market and utilizing
the, the, uh, whether it's tech,whether it's the, the, the
capabilities that I that are atmy disposal Right, um, and I I
feel, I feel like when it wasthe 90s, 2000s, right and Jeff
can attest to this like it tookus a minute to read a record
(22:42):
right, because we had to talk tothe DJs, we had to see how it
resonated per market Talk to theretailers.
You know, in some cases talk tothe retailers, some cases go to
the market.
You know what I mean and see it.
Versus now, with technology andthe benefits of social media
and streaming, and you can seeit like that.
(23:03):
You know what I mean, you cansee it, you know much quicker.
So how you utilize that, youknow what I mean is important,
right, but I think the one thingthat's always been important
for me is the level of qualitywith that artist or with that
brand or you know, particularlyjust speaking on the artist side
(23:24):
, right, the point of view, theperspective, you know, the
quality and quality, again, isall relative to, and quality
again is all relative to pointof view, right, but in
understanding that,understanding what the artist's
voice is, who their audience isand who they're speaking to,
right, and to me that's themeasure of how you that are
(23:53):
groundbreaking, criticallyacclaimed, right to artists that
are SoundCloud hits orSoundCloud waves.
You know what I mean.
But the one thing thatresonated was there was a clear
perspective, there was a clearvoice, right, and there was a
(24:15):
clear consumer that thoseartists were speaking to and the
level of success is allrelative.
Some did gold, some didplatinum, some did
multi-platinum right, but therewas a level of what the music
was, the, the, the perspectivethat the artist was, you know,
trying to put out there in themarketplace, and then how we
effectively marketed around thatthat's what I find harder today
(24:36):
is like finding artists, likeyou said, that have that
perspective and like genuinelyhave that perspective, as
opposed to putting out shitbecause that's what they think
is hot.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
It's like okay, I'm putting this out because this
kind of sounds like little baby,this kind of sounds like gunner
or whoever maybe, and this outbecause this kind of sounds like
Lil Baby, this kind of soundslike Gunner or whoever it may be
, and this will get me on, asopposed to like I'm putting out
these.
I'm making music because thisis how I feel and this is what
I'm trying to say.
We have that conversation withartists nowadays, so what are
you really trying to say withyour music?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
They don't know they're like.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Must be hot.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Must be hot, you, they don't know, I'm like bro,
but the ones that rise above,like you said, whether it be any
genre, whether it be BillieEilish or Future or Anderson Pi,
whoever it is, they all have aperspective that they have, and
it's kind of like nobody else'sperspective.
It's their thing, and it's hardto get that across nowadays,
like you said, so much contenteverybody's trying to get on.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
There's no gatekeepers.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
No more either.
There's not many gatekeepers.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Is that tough, though ?
When you think about marketingstrategy, you've got to balance
what the vision and what theartist is trying to do, but also
what you know breaks throughfrom a marketing perspective.
How do you balance the two,because you might be way out
here, but you're trying tomarket them in a way to have
success.
(26:01):
Is there a balance there, orhow do you deal with that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I mean, I think part of that balance comes from the
understanding between the artistand or the label in terms of
what's our long-term goal withthis right.
And I think that if, whenever Ispeak to artists or labels or
partners, I'm always like,listen, this is a marathon and
(26:28):
not a sprint, Right, and youhave to understand that from day
one.
And you may be in a situationwhere you get an overnight
success and it's rocking, whichmost labels want that success,
and it's rocking, which mostlabels want, that Most artists
want that Right.
But the reality of it is ittakes time, right.
(26:49):
It takes time, you know, toreally even penetrate and have a
level of success.
You know that is of the volumesthat is substantial.
And even those artists whereyou think they will fly by night
and where did they come from?
They weren't reallyfly-by-night.
You know what I mean.
And there's a number of thoseSoundCloud artists and I use
that genre in particular becausewe all know that was a period
(27:12):
where it looked like where didthese guys?
come from and they wereeverywhere and it was explosive,
but they were in their ownunderbelly right.
And then, when that wave moved,it moved and everybody was on
you know what I mean and to me,I think that's why you know
(27:32):
you'll.
We always have theseconversations of, oh, hip-hop is
dead and hip-hop is this, and Inever feel like hip-hop is dead
.
I always feel like hip hip hopis always going to continue to
evolve, right, because itevolves with the market, it
evolves with the listeners, withthe kids.
You know what I mean.
And it may be in a low rightand, jeff, you can attest to
(27:53):
this.
We've always seen hip hop haveperiods of lows, right, but
that's when the true artiststhat are about their creativity
and their artistry have anopportunity to shine.
And I almost feel like we're inthat period now where it's
almost like, ok, you know,streaming isn't what it, what it
(28:16):
was for.
You know a lot of hip hop acts,right, not saying there aren't
success, you know, and there'sbig names out there, right, but
just in general, right, and partof that, I think, is reflective
of there's a creative evolution.
You know that's that'shappening Right, relative to
whether there's a new soundthat's going to emerge, whether
(28:38):
there's an old school wave andmovement that's happening and
we're seeing a lot of.
You know our OG and veteranacts, you know, dropping great
product, you know, and you knowputting the emphasis on artistry
and I think that there's anawareness, you know, from the
younger generation on that whichI think will inspire.
You know, whatever that nexttrend you know music is going to
(29:00):
be.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I agree, I agree, agree.
I think, like you said, we'vealways seen lulz and you always
got the hip-hop is dead people.
But I think the hip-hop is deadpeople for the most part.
They could, they um, stopevolving.
And that's cool, because youknow life happens.
So you might be like I'm notmoving past 2006, that was my
era.
You know, 50 cent in themniggas, and that's what I'm.
(29:21):
I them niggas.
That's it for me.
So anything that comes afterthat is garbage.
I don't like this young shit, Idon't like these mumble rappers
and you either keep going withit or you kind of just get off
the train right there and yousay it's dead.
But it's because it's dead toyou.
But it's not dead, it's justdead to you.
But people keep growing.
(29:43):
Like you know, I spices like infive years people be like
that's old now.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
It just keeps evolving, it keeps growing, it
keeps evolving, you know, yeah,yeah you, you would say that you
really think hip-hop is at alull right now, like, okay, I
guess there's two ways to lookat that.
There's the music side of it,but then there is just the
general popularity.
Like before we, you, before westarted recording, we were
talking about snoop at theolympics and I think hip-hop and
some of the representatives ofhip-hop are at an all-time high
(30:10):
right now in terms of popularity, in terms of being on
mainstream, mainstream channels.
I mean, I think we're at anabsolute height right now when
you, when you look at it fromthat perspective not necessarily
the music, the new music that'scoming out- when I say low, I'm
talking in terms of theartistry aspect of it, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
The music the pure music side of it, the music
aspect of it, not the popularity, you know, aspect of it,
because I think that hip-hop isas popular as it can be and, to
your point, right, there'sseveral hip hop artists that are
still on major brands and showsand tours and opportunities,
right.
(30:52):
But I think that when you lookacross the board, in terms of
the footprint that hip hop salesis having in general, right,
it's at a low, and I'm nottalking about Drake and Kendrick
and the superstars right, I'm,you know, because the superstars
are superstars and they arealways going to do what they do.
(31:15):
I'm talking about the volume atwhich the a lot of the core and
developing acts that used todominate the chart had presence.
That is at a lull, and I thinkthat that's reflective of going
from a single format to albums,going to what people are looking
(31:39):
for relative to is it based onsingles or is there a real album
demand, you know?
And also going back to how thecreative and the narrative in
terms of some of the hip hopartists, is going to continue to
evolve, like, what's the nexttrend?
I mean, I mean, if we had acrystal ball, you know what I
(32:01):
mean We'd all be billionaires.
Relative to what the next trendis in hip hop, I don't think
anyone can kind of predict ituntil you actually see it and it
emerges.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Well I want to talk about.
I'm going to swing back a bitmore to the career stuff.
So at the Tommy Boy you went toCornerstone, correct?
Yes, so what was thattransition like?
And tell us about Cornerstone,because it doesn't exist anymore
.
People might not know.
And rest in peace to thefounder of it, Rob Stone, who
(32:32):
passed away fairly recently, butit was a very important thing.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I mean, you know Cornerstone at that time
and this was what late 2000,early 2001, when I actually went
there, but it had started, youknow, in the late 90s as a, you
know, hip hop, r&b andalternative rock promotion
company, because both Robalternative rock promotion
company, because both Rob andJohn Cohen, the founders of
(33:06):
Cornerstone, that was theirbackground, given Rob was big on
the hip hop, r&b, radiopromotion side and John on the
alternative side.
So at that time the companyfocused on, you know,
independent, you know radiopromotion, marketing and at that
(33:27):
time, really building out astrategic, you know branding
aspect of the company, whichthis is what?
20 years ago, a little morethan that Strategic marketing in
music and entertainmentdefinitely wasn't as common, you
know, as it is now, like it'san everyday thing now, but back
then it was, it was newterritory.
(33:49):
And, you know, in addition tothe radio marketing and
promotion, the corporatebranding and promotion, you know
there were major, huge clientsSprite, xbox, coca-cola, boost,
mobile where a big part of whatwe did at Cornerstone and while
I was there, was actuallybridging that gap between
(34:12):
corporate marketing and musicmarketing and coming up with
creative campaigns utilizingmusic artists.
We created two opportunities.
We created brandingopportunities, sponsors of
opportunities, product placementopportunities, all of those
things.
And then, within Cornerstone,uh, the Fader magazine was also
(34:33):
born.
So Fader is a sister, a sistercompany to Cornerstone, um, and
again, I think, fader being oneof those groundbreaking, you
know, music, lifestyle andculture magazines of all genres,
and Fader is still around andCornerstone actually still
around, it's just, it's just ona different scale than what it
(34:57):
was, you know.
And again, I think a lot ofthat was relative to just
strategic branding, marketing,promotion that was part one of
our conversation with ChrisAtlas.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Alright, folks, that's our show.
Tune in to Unglossing theCoding Brand and Culture on
Apple Podcasts, spotify orYouTube, and follow us on
Instagram at UnglossyPod, tojoin the conversation.
Until next time, I'm Tom Frank,I'm Jeffrey Sledge, or YouTube
and follow us on Instagram atunglossypod to join the
conversation Until next time.
Speaker 4 (35:25):
I'm Tom Frank.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Smicky, that was good .
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