Lee Hawkins: Ancestry, Ambition, and the Art of Reinvention

This week on "Unglossy" hosts Tom Frank, Mickey Factz, and Jeffrey Sledge engage in a captivating conversation with Lee Hawkins, a distinguished journalist, author, and musician. Lee shares his remarkable journey from his early days in Minnesota, through his journalism career at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and Wisconsin State Journal, to his 19-year tenure at the Wall Street Journal. He highlights pivotal moments, such as the advice he received from Jimmy Iovine to prioritize his book, "I Am Nobody's Slave: How Uncovering My Family's History Set Me Free," emphasizing its significance over other projects.

Lee delves into his transition from covering business and celebrities to exploring themes of race, equity, and trauma. Inspired by a fellowship at USC, he examines the intergenerational effects of racism and trauma on Black families, sharing personal discoveries about his own family's history. He also reflects on his deep connection to music, influenced by his father, and his work as a musician, including collaborations with The Wiggles. Throughout the conversation, Lee offers valuable career advice, stressing the importance of preparation and strategic planning for personal and professional growth.

"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Creative and hosted by Merrick Chief Creative Officer, Tom Frank, hip hop artist and founder of Pendulum Ink, Mickey Factz, and music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to hear this thought-provoking discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/.

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Episode Transcript

TOM (00:00):
This week on Unglossy.

LEE (00:02):
I got the book deal and then I remember I did an
interview and it was one of mylast and Jimmy Iovine was
telling me about the deal thathe was doing with Apple and Dr
Dre and everything.
And when we were talking hesaid so what have you been up to
?
And I said, well, I got thisbook that I'm doing.
And then we were about to startthe interview and I said you

(00:23):
ready to go?
And he goes wait, lee.
And I said what?
And he goes the book is allthat matters.
That book is going to be socritical.
This is cool, but get that bookdone.

TOM (00:37):
From the top.
Yeah, I'm Tom Frank, I'm MickeyFax.

JEFFREY (00:44):
And I'm Jeffrey Sledge.

TOM (00:45):
Welcome to Unglossy, to coning brand and culture.
I'm Tom Frank, partner andchief creative officer at Merit
Creative.
This is Mickey Fax, hip-hopartist and founder and CEO of
Pendulum Inc.
And that is Jeffrey Sledge, aseasoned music industry veteran
who has worked with some of thebiggest artists in the business.
We're here to explore themoments of vulnerability,
pivotal decisions and creativesparks that fuel the

(01:06):
relationship between brand andculture.
Get ready for thought-provokingjourney into the heart and soul
of branding the unscripted,unfiltered and truly unglossy
truth.
All right, guys, we have aninteresting, interesting guy
that we're going to talk totoday.
This guy grew up in Minnesota,attended the University of
Wisconsin-Madison where hestarted his journalism path as

(01:29):
the editorial page editor of theBadger Herald School Paper.
Early in his career he workedfor Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
and the Wisconsin State Journal.
As a reporter, we won a bunch ofdifferent awards.
He went on to spend 19 years atthe Wall Street Journal and
then we're going to get reallyinto what he did post-Journal as
well as everything he did withthe Journal.
Right, I mean, this guy, leeHawkins, is an impressive guy

(01:52):
who's done a lot of interestingthings, and I was blown away by
the interview.
I didn't know where we weregoing to go and where we did go
was pretty exciting.

JEFFREY (02:02):
And he's a musician.

TOM (02:04):
Don't forget the musician, that's right.

MICKEY (02:06):
I mean, I think it's just a powerful interview.
You know, I think people aregoing to take away so much from
this, right From all differentwalks of life, are going to be
able to pull away from thethings that he was speaking
about.
I mean, this guy is awell-traveled, well-known and
well-educated Black man, youknow, who not only wanted to
service his community but alsofigure out and find out about

(02:28):
himself, and I think you knowthat's pretty, it's pretty dope,
if you ask me.

JEFFREY (02:32):
Yeah, he's making me want to do ancestry now.

TOM (02:38):
Is he making you feel like maybe it's not a scam anymore?

JEFFREY (02:43):
Maybe, maybe, maybe Might be a light scam in there,
I don't know.

TOM (02:47):
It's a light scam, likely A light scam.
I did find it interestingthough that and I guess we all
think about it, but until hereally laid it out of how much
of a profound impact yourhistory does have on you today.
And even Jeffrey you even toldan interesting story about just
the way people act and thataction, if people are laughing

(03:10):
it off, how it's being allowedand it continues.
And it's a way that takesviolence and maybe some horrific
things that have happened inthe past and ladders it all the
way down the line without reallyeven thinking about the fact
that you're passing on somethingthat you're not even realizing
what you're passing on.

JEFFREY (03:25):
Yeah, where it's coming from, Yep.

MICKEY (03:26):
This is great.
I don't know if I'm sold onancestrycom yet, so uh you know,
it's one of those things whereit's like I'm sure there's been
popular and prominent peoplethat have their DNA and
nothing's happened to them,allegedly.
So you know, maybe I'll thinkabout it.
But I know, jeff, why don't youdo it?
And if something differenthappens, you?

JEFFREY (03:48):
know Now you're trying to put it on me.
Come on chill.
Yeah, I think.

TOM (03:50):
Jeffrey, I think you do it, and then we'll have a whole
episode on what comes out, orI'll take another route, maybe
we go get the marketing directoror a brand director or or one
of the founders, and we get themon this show and we really grow
.

JEFFREY (04:03):
That'd be better, you like?

TOM (04:05):
that better than you giving your DNA.

JEFFREY (04:07):
I like that way better than me giving up the goods
Pause.

TOM (04:13):
All right With that.
I hope you all enjoy a greatconversations with Lee Hawkins.
Unglossy is brought to you byMerrick Creative, looking to
skyrocket your business'svisibility and drive growth.
At Merit Creative, we solveyour brand and marketing woes
With big ideas, decades ofexperience and innovative
solutions.
We'll draw in your targetaudience and keep them hooked.

(04:35):
Remember, creativity is key tosuccess.
Partner with Merit Creative andunlock your brand's potential.
Learn more at meritcreativecom.
And now back to the show.
Today we are excited to betalking to a former Wall Street
journalist, four-time winner ofNABJ's Salute to Excellent Award

(04:55):
, podcast host and creator ofwhat Happened in Alabama and
author of the forthcoming book IAm Nobody's Slave.
How Uncovering my Family'sHistory Set Me Free, mr Lee
Hawkins.
How are you, lee?

LEE (05:10):
Hey, good to see you.
Good to see you.
Thanks for having me on theshow, hey man, we appreciate you
coming on here.

TOM (05:15):
I can't wait to get into everything there is about you,
from your career to thisupcoming book.
Thank you, you've had aninteresting ride and you'll
continue to have that ride.
But I want to go back tosomething.
I want to start with how wefirst met.
Do you remember?

LEE (05:35):
We met through Lupe Fiasco when I was interviewing him as
part of the upfronts for thewall street journal.

TOM (05:38):
That is right.
I'm going to tell you a littlestory about this, guys.
So I had the.
I had the great pleasure ofmeeting Lee, cause Lee wanted to
interview Lupe.
He was, he was.
He was.
He was a brand ambassador.
I had worked with the brand.
We came to the upfronts, whichI was very excited about it.
I got to meet you.
I got to see all of this stuffgoing on and I can remember and
I don't remember if it was youor if it was somebody who worked
with you they took, they tookme and Lupe into into like a

(06:01):
green room area Lots of food andall that.
We're sitting there.
It was a very rainy day.
It was pouring down rain.
I can remember I stayed veryfar away.
Lupe stayed right next to thebuilding.
I was kind of wet.
We all got to the thing we'resitting in the green room and
the door swings open and a guycomes walking in.
He's all disheveled, he'sirritated.
It had been raining.

(06:22):
The hotel didn't have anumbrella for him.
He sits down right next to meon my right.
I got Lupe on this side, I gotthis guy on my right, and so we
start talking and we literallytalked for about 10 minutes,
until you came in and said, lupe, you're up, or whoever it was,
came in and we left.
And to this day I remember thatbecause I smile so big, because
it was Lupe Fiasco on my leftand MC Hammer on my right and

(06:45):
all we talked about was theweather.
And it never even occurred tome to pull out my phone and take
a picture, because I'm sittingnext to MC Hammer and Lupe
Fiasco.
I mean, talk about just, andall we talked about was how much
rain it was.
And, if you remember, mc Hammerwas there because he had
started a, a search engine,wasn't it?

LEE (07:05):
yes, he he's been heavily involved in the tech field and
with silicon valley andeverything, and I would have to
say that that was probably oneof the highlights of my career.
I've met so many people andworked with so many different
celebrities, but meeting uh mchammer that day was a big day
for me because I was a fan ofhis yeah I know that he, if you

(07:28):
look on instagram, um, there'ssome footage of some recent
dance performances that he'sdone, for I think it was for an
upcoming show that he has, and,man, he's still on point.
So, uh, I can see why you wereexcited about that, because, not
only just because of everythingthat he had accomplished in his
career as a musician, but hisability to transfer his skills

(07:51):
to tech and to not just be onedimensional, and even after he
lost a lot of money as a resultof the celebrity commitment, the
celebrity lifestyle, he stillwas able to use his brain to
figure out a way to get back onhis feet.

MICKEY (08:06):
You know what I find interesting about that, right,
because you know MC Hammer.
First of all, I'm a I'm a 90sbaby, I guess.
So I grew up around the MCHammer Michael Jackson debate
kind of thing and I was a bigfan of Hammer at the time.
And then the fall off happenedand he kind of changed his style
.
But him being from the Bay,which is essentially Silicon

(08:31):
Valley, it's kind of like anatural progression right for
him to go into that space.
And when I found I think he hadan interview on Good Morning
America where they tried to kindof denounce him right and I
followed him on Twitter fromthat and that was like early
Twitter days and he follows meback and we kind of go back and

(08:51):
forth Right, and he was one ofthe first kind of investors into
Twitter, and to kind of findout that he just went from like
this big superstar rivalingMichael Jackson just went from
like this big superstar rivalingMichael Jackson falling off and
then now being this tech guy,it's just like that's like the
American dream.

(09:12):
Honestly, it's like a greatredemption story for him.

LEE (09:15):
But what it tells you is that you could take a person.
You could take a person who'sbroken, a person who's wealthy,
and take away the money from thewealthy person and give both of
those people the same amount ofmoney and that wealthy person
will probably be back on top.
If they're a self-starter, ifthey're a person who didn't

(09:36):
inherit the wealth but they madeit themselves, they find a way.
And I think that one of thethings that a lot of rappers and
athletes who I've worked within my career miss out on is the
understanding of the quality ofthe network, and not just who
you know, but and it's not justwhat you know, but it's who

(09:57):
knows you and what they sayabout you.
That's number one.
And the opportunity of thequality of being able to tap
into that lawyer that you met,that accountant that you met,
that brand person that you met,and to actually listen when
they're in these meetings and tolisten and to pay attention to
what's happening and takecontrol of your career and to

(10:21):
then establish that relationshipand keep that relationship.
So, no matter what the negativethings, what negative things
happen in your career, you'restill able to kind of rebrand
and repackage everything andcome back and figure out OK, now
we're in the Bitcoin era, ornow we're in the streaming era.
How do I adapt myself to beable to continue to be as

(10:45):
successful as I was, or to growand expand?
And there are certain people MCHammer one of them who have been
able to do that.
50 Cent is another.
I mean, he's a brilliant guy.
People have no idea about thesavviness of him.
And J Cole is another one whoI've spent a lot of time you

(11:05):
know, I did an hour interviewwith J Cole and these are all
people who, at their core, arereally smart.
They're just, they just.
They're underestimated becauseof the fact that they're rappers
, but they could probablysucceed in anything that they do
.
Even Ryan Leslie, he's anotherone.
These guys are all brilliant,they do.

(11:26):
Even Ryan Leslie, he's anotherone.
These guys are all brilliant.
And MC Hammer just showed itand continues to show it with
the success that he's having now.

TOM (11:31):
So this is interesting because you're a kid that you
went to the University ofWisconsin.
Somehow you got from there tothe Wall Street Journal, right,
and this is where you startedyour career.
Really it was interviewing andit wasn't just celebrities, it
was celebrities that and correctme if I'm wrong that were part
of more of this the businessside of music.

(11:51):
Is that right?

LEE (11:53):
Yeah, it's not where I started my career, but it is
where I started my career, wherepeople know me as starting my
career, because before that Iwas doing much more arcane work.
I worked at two papers inWisconsin before and I was just
a business reporter.
I covered utilities,manufacturing and technology and

(12:14):
that positioned me.
You know.
I was able to break some bigstories, win some awards and I
got on the Wall Street Journal'sradar and the first job that I
did was covering General Motorsout of the Detroit Bureau, which
was a big responsibility, butas for a kid from Minnesota, it
was a big.
It was a blessing for mebecause it gave me an

(12:34):
opportunity to see the world.
You know, before I took thatjob I had only been to Canada.
That was the only place outsidethe United States I'd been and
then within a year I was goingto China and Korea, switzerland,
like all over the world, and Ithink that that really opened
the door for a lot.
But what it did mostly was forme to apply my skills covering

(12:59):
publicly traded companies and tobuild on that.
So from there I started being aguest on CNBC a lot, you know,
because of stories that I wouldwrite for the Wall Street
Journal about General Motors andthat kind of got me on camera.
And then eventually some peopleover at CNBC said, well, hey,
we'd like to have this guy comeon and speak and represent the

(13:24):
Wall Street Journal on CNBC.
There were a few of us who didthat.
And then Rupert Murdochpurchased the Wall Street
Journal.
I think it was in 2009.
When he purchased the WallStreet Journal, he started his
own.
They started their own WallStreet Journal network, which
was primarily video, and so Istayed on TV.
But I was doing more with FoxBusiness, and so when Fox

(13:48):
Business News dropped, I was onTV and I did a lot of the Wall
Street Journal's video work.
And also, when I was at CNBC, Ihosted a special called the Rise
of the New Black Overclass, andit was all about Black
celebrities, mainly men, in thesports, entertainment and media
industry, and it was all beforeall of this even became a thing

(14:13):
for people to talk about and diginto the branding and the
businesses behind these bigcelebrity brands.
So I had LeBron James.
I had LeBron James and RichPaul and Maverick Carter and
they were all in this specialand Kirk Franklin and Torrey
Hunter, the baseball player, anda lot of it was about wealth,

(14:34):
sudden wealth at a young age,and that kind of was the thing
that got me to understand hey, Ican turn this into a franchise
inside of a franchise.
So they talk aboutintrapreneurs.
Well, I guess I was anintrapreneur in the sense where
I was like, well, how can Iapply all of this business
coverage to what I know?

(14:56):
Because I was that kid fromMinnesota and then I did move to
Detroit, but then I moved toNew York and I ended up being
one of the few Black guys at theWall Street Journal and I was a
young guy.
So I went to a lot of partiesand I ended up meeting a lot of
people and they'd be like,what's up man?
Hey, bro, you with the WallStreet Journal.

(15:17):
Next thing, you know, this isLee Hawkins.
He's with the Wall StreetJournal and I started meeting a
lot of the people who I used toread about when I was a kid.
I met Kedar Massenburg, who wasa friend of mine, and I met
Puffy.
I met Mark Echo.
I met all of these guys and allof a sudden it was like they're

(15:39):
right here.
I met Kanye and I would havethese conversations and start to
, you know, just get underneaththe hood in terms of management
and how you know the problemsthat these guys had with having
money and their families and allof that, and I started to think
, man, this is a big thing, weneed to start talking to people

(16:00):
from sports, media andentertainment about their lives,
but I need to do a lot ofresearch before these interviews
, and so that's what I did.
I started a thing called theBusiness of Celebrity and I had
bosses at the Wall StreetJournal who were a little
skeptical at first, but theywere open and they gave me the
chance to do it because we had aYouTube deal at the time.

(16:21):
And once I started doing theinterviews, it started off rough
.
The first ones were not good.

TOM (16:28):
Who were some of your first ones.

LEE (16:30):
Well, I did.
Let's see, I did this thingfirst called Walk About New York
.
So it really was.
It was walking aroundneighborhoods with people who
lived in New York, who werecelebrities.
I think Swiss Beats was one ofthem.
I think I remember Rohan Marleywas one, peter Buffett, warren

(16:53):
Buffett's son, who's a musicianin his own right.
So I went with the and theother thing.
That was powerful, which Ididn't realize until later,
because I'm always trying tokeep everything simple and
trying to do everything myself.
A lot of that is because of thetrauma that some of the trauma
I've experienced in my life,which turned out to be a good

(17:13):
thing.
But I booked all my own guestsand so my first two years in New
York I got to be honest withyou.
I went out every night and Iwould get.
I would go to all the parties.
I would be up till three in themorning and then I would get up
at seven in the morning and tryto hit the gym.
But the key was I pushed myselfto make a lot of relationships

(17:37):
really fast and I did it, andthen that positioned me to be
able to book these guests andthen that really helped me in my
relationships now.
So I think that my careerprobably to the public, for the
people who know me because I'mnot a famous guy or anything,
but there are people who know meI do get, I do get stopped in

(17:59):
airports and I can tell how andI can tell how in touch with the
culture a person is and howlong they've been in touch with
the culture.
Because if they recognize meand they're able to actually
talk to me about an interviewthat I did, then that means
they've been paying attentionand it means a lot to me when
young men, particularly blackmen, stop me and say, brother,

(18:22):
you inspired me, because I thinkI wanted to show everybody, you
know in the Wall StreetJournal's world, that there were
so many people, young men,coming up, many of them, who
were Black, you know, theNellies of the world, all of
these guys who were justincredible, once again, just

(18:42):
incredible business people, andnot just that, but also making
it a point, being passionate, ifnot self-righteous, about
providing opportunities forother Black men as their lawyers
, as their managers and, in myview, what I've seen, I've been
around everybody and I believethat the rappers, out of anybody

(19:02):
, are the ones who are the mostcommitted to building Black
wealth and entrepreneurship andproviding opportunities and
creating millionaires in theBlack community.
You can't take that away fromthem, because every time I sit
down with a rapper, the people Ideal with before I even see

(19:23):
them are always almost alwaysBlack, and if they are not,
they're situated close to it.
They're guys like you who sawan opportunity and said I don't
care what color these guys are,this is a business.
The color that matters is green.
I like these guys, I want towork.
Mark Echo, lear Cohen, jimmyIovine you know, yeah, they're

(19:45):
in the room.
Those guys have always been inthe room and they've been
wealthy as a result of it.
But a lot of times it isanother black man saying, hey,
ok, mr Hawkins, thank you.
This is, you know, this is JCole.
I want you to meet him, andalways the highest professional

(20:06):
and always the ones who arethinking so far ahead about how
to not just be in the game butto stay in the game.
Game but to stay in the game.
And I wanted the Wall StreetJournal world and the people
with the median net you know,even the average 52 year old guy
with three million dollars toknow about this group and you
know I don't want to take creditfor this podcast revolution

(20:29):
that we're seeing, because therewere other people who did
interviews like this, but Iwould like to say that I saw it,
I was among the first and I'mreally proud of that and I
actually wish that people woulddo well, I don't know.
I mean, having the reportingbackground really helps and I
think just coming into theinterviews prepared and

(20:50):
everything makes it so much of abetter experience.
And for me, I was blessedbecause a lot of times and then
this will be the last thing Isay on this, so I'll let you
talk but a lot of times it wasthat I would interview the
manager first and then themanager would say you know, like

(21:10):
when you're trying to book likea really big interview, like I
got an interview with theKardashians, right, and that was
.
That was way back, it wasbefore it was, as they were
really starting to blow up 2012.
Um, but before that, I did theinterview with Chris and we sat
down and did a one hourinterview.
She made it happen for me toget the interview with her

(21:32):
daughters and that um and samething with Chris Lighty.
Chris Lighty was the one thatreally opened up the
opportunities for me tointerview a lot of rappers blue
williams because they knew thisguy knows the business and he's
coming forward to do a differentkind of interview that we're
not going to hear anywhere elsehow hard was it to convince, um,

(21:56):
the wall street journal to letyou do this type of stuff,
because now I'm noticing a lotmore, um, I guess hip-hop
culture and stuff coming fromforbes as well, like they listen
stuff.

JEFFREY (22:08):
like how hard was it to get these hard body?
You know for lack of a betterterm white establishment?
You know, um, you knowmagazines and whatnot, to let
that side of the culture in?

TOM (22:22):
That's 15.
I mean when we first met I wastrying to think about it it was
15.
Is that 15 years ago?

LEE (22:28):
Probably, yeah, yeah.

TOM (22:31):
And so you were doing this way, ahead of what is happening
today.

LEE (22:35):
Yeah, you know, it wasn't't hard and it didn't happen
overnight.
There were times that were hard.
There were times where I wouldtry to explain to them um, hey,
this person is a person weshould really interview and we
should really put the put forththe effort to travel if we have

(22:56):
to, or, to, you know, have themin New York and to work around
their schedule.
And they would say well, who isthis person?
You know, and I'll tell you oneexample was Priyanka Chopra.
Before Priyanka Chopra reallyblew up in the United States,
you know, I was the firstreporter on American soil to sit
down and do a one hourinterview with her.

(23:19):
She was a huge Bollywood star.
Yeah, and of course, you know,a lot of people didn't know who
she was.
I didn't know who she was untilmy friend, anjula Ancheria-Bath
, explained to me that who shewas and that she was managing
this new artist who was going totake the world by storm in

(23:39):
music and that she was aBollywood star.
But this is when she wasworking with Jimmy Iovine on a
potential music career and shedid some really good songs.
She's a very good singer.
But my point is is that Iremember, when I pitched, that
they were a little skeptical,but they because I had had
success on the YouTube platform.
I mean, I've done over 100million views on YouTube and I

(24:03):
think that matters.
You know anything you do, youknow you could have haters and
people talking about you and allthis stuff and you think the
bridge is burned forever and allof this stuff.
But at the end of the day, whenyou have success, you will be
surprised that people comearound.
And in this case, I got to behonest with you.

(24:24):
I had a really good team ofpeople.
I was fortunate to have a bossat the time who was not a
micromanager.
He knew Hawk.
As long as you know what you'redoing, I'm going to give you
the space to do it, and I wasable to develop this franchise
as a result of that.
And you know now, the PriyankaChopra interview wouldn't have

(24:46):
done well.
Then you know, maybe that wouldhave been the end of business,
of celebrity.
But the truth was this guy,raul Chopra, who was involved,
who was an executive at the WallStreet Journal, knew about her
as well and he got my back tooand we ended up doing it and we

(25:07):
were doing like one hundredthousand views a day that we
just watched.
It was like one of thesecounters where the numbers just
go up.
The numbers are going up inreal time.
I mean this interview justexploded and I think that was
the last time I was ever reallychallenged.
I think the other time I waschallenged was when that's
equals trust.

TOM (25:26):
I mean, at the end of the day, the more success you've had
, the little bit more trust yougot to the point where they're
willing to let you try some newthings, because look at the
success he's had.

LEE (25:35):
Yeah, and I think the J Cole interview was another
example, because I was supposedto sit down with J Cole and
probably just cut like a 15minute interview, but when he
started talking I was just likeyo, this this young man is, is

(25:55):
special, you know, and I mean ina good way.
What ended up happening was wejust, I told my camera guys keep
rolling.
And we just kept rolling and weended up talking for over an
hour.
So I remember going back to theoffice and saying, hey, you
know what?
This was a special interview.
This guy has a lot to say.

(26:17):
He's had an amazing career.
I don't think we should justmake this a 15-minute interview.
And I remember my boss kind ofexploding on me and just saying
oh no, we can't do this.
How are we going to cover this?
We got to find all of thesedifferent photos and video to go
with it.
We're not going to do it.
I said we don't need to cover it, just put it out there.

(26:38):
We'll do your 15 minute one.
And we did the beautified 15minute thing.
And then I said just put, trustme, please just put out the raw
video of me talking to J Cole.
And once again, I mean, even tothis day, if you go online,
it's that long interview thatgot the views.
It's not the beautified one,isn't that great.

(26:59):
Well, you know, being right isgreat, but you know I'm sure
there are plenty of times whereI wasn't right and so, but yeah,
the Wall Street Journalincredible brand, best financial
newspaper in the world.
I think the challenge for mewas wanting and we'll talk about
this but really wanting to getmore into social justice issues.

(27:22):
And you know, even there, withthe Wall Street Journal, I was
able to do to be a reporter onthe team of reporters who did a
series on the Tulsa massacre of1921, 100 year anniversary, and
we were finalists for thePulitzer Prize.

TOM (27:37):
I was going to say want, you're a finalist for a very
major award.

LEE (27:40):
Yeah, I can't.
You know, one thing that I Ithink a lot of people like to do
um is to criticize the journalbecause it's owned by murdoch,
but murdoch my experience withmurdoch is that he is very aware
he cares more about his brandsand making sure that each of his
brands are on point with theaudience that they're meant to

(28:02):
serve.
So you know, you have toremember, he's owned Fox and you
know a lot of the originalBlack sitcoms that really blew
up in the 90s were on Fox.
And he owns my publisher,amistad, which is primarily
black American books, had thenumber one book, barracoon, just

(28:23):
two years ago.
And and you know I mean Amistadis a black publisher owned by a
very conservative, ultraconservative multi-billionaire

(28:43):
that it is a publication thatdoes not lend itself to to write
about people of color and to dopodcasts about people of color.
That's not the place for me todo it, because a lot of my work
is long form now and I'm goingin a totally different direction

(29:07):
.
But it was a great opportunityand I encourage everybody who
gets the opportunity to do wellin corporate America to go into
corporate America, learn as muchas you can and then get out and
do your own thing.

TOM (29:22):
Good advice.
So how did that transitionhappen though?
I mean, here you are the top ofyour game, you're interviewing
all sorts of interesting peopleI mean you did one with Mike
Tyson, I believe you were, ryanReynolds, lady Gaga I mean the
list goes on and on and you madethat transition to then start
covering topics on race equity,child trauma.

(29:43):
What made?
Why did you decide you couldhave easily went down this path
and continue doing this,probably for a long time?

LEE (29:51):
I think what made me start to transition was I did a
fellowship at USC made me startto transition was I did a
fellowship at USC.
Usc has a childhood traumareporting fellowship and I was
able to do that through theAnnenberg USC Annenberg, and it

(30:11):
was a week of training aroundadverse childhood experiences,
the role that racism can play inthat was.
You know, some of the expertstalked about that childhood PTSD
, a lot of those things and,once again, the way that my

(30:31):
brain works is that I'm able totake these experiences that I
see in the world because I'vebeen in a lot of places.

TOM (30:38):
I'm a musician, you know, and being a musician is- we're
going to get to your musictalents, don't you worry.

LEE (30:45):
But what it does is it takes you into a lot of
different worlds, and you knowthat's the power of every
journalist who's good at whatthey do is to be able to not
live inside a bubble but to havean experience beyond their own.
And so, for me, I had a lot ofcuriosity about my dad, because

(31:07):
my dad, who was very close to me, grew up in Jim Crow, alabama,
but he would never talk abouthis experience in Alabama.
He left when he was 12 yearsold and a lot of my friends who
have relatives in the South whenthey did that great migration.
People have to understand Blackpeople's families weren't just
split up.
We weren't just split up duringslavery.

(31:29):
We were split up during JimCrow and part of it was, yes,
people wanted a betteropportunity, but part of it was
that people had had experiencedtrauma in Alabama and
Mississippi and Louisiana andwe're trying to get away,
whether it was a badsharecropping deal or, in my
dad's case, his mother died of akidney infection and he was 12

(31:51):
and he had a sister and herhusband who were in Minnesota,
so that was how he ended upthere, but I had seen how trauma
that I wasn't sure about allthe trauma that my dad had
experienced.
But there were things that Ihad seen, mainly that he had
nightmares when I was a kidsometimes, and you know my dad

(32:13):
wasn't a punk, you know, he wasa strong black man and in the
morning, a lot of times I would,a couple of times I would ask
him.
You know, dad, what were youdreaming about?
You know you had a nightmarelast night and all he would just
say is Alabama, son, alabama.
And you know, for me, Iexperienced a lot of corporal

(32:34):
punishment as a kid.
I got the belt over a hundredtimes.
All my friends got the belt andI was one of the Black people
who really didn't like it.
You know there are a lot ofBlack people who celebrate it
and say, oh, I needed that andif I could go back, I would want
my parents to beat me more.
I didn't want my parents tobeat me and you know I

(32:58):
understand where it comes fromand that's what my podcast is
about.
But you know, when I was in myearly 30s, I started to have
nightmares about some of the,some of the attacks that
happened, you know, when I was akid, because of my, you know,
with my dad and my dad's fear ofthe world and his fear for me,

(33:19):
and I started to really thinkabout, I started to study.
Now, how does this idea thatBlack children are beat
disproportionately at home andin school right In 17 states
where corporal punishment islegal, primarily in the South,
and Black girls are three timesmore likely to be hit with a

(33:40):
paddle you know, three times ineach instance than white girls
how is this affecting ourchildren?
What kinds of things areaffecting our children when they
see shootings?
You know I had four friendsmurdered in high school freshman
year, sophomore year, junioryear and senior year.

(34:01):
There were a lot of things thathappened and so I started to
really be interested inchildhood trauma when I did that
fellowship and the effectsbecause it shortens life
expectancy, and that was what Ilearned.
And once I started to make thatconnection between childhood
trauma and life expectancy and Iwas able to think about my own

(34:22):
life and all of the friends Ihad whose fathers died in their
50s and people who would haveheart attacks and strokes and
diabetes disproportionately highlevels of diabetes and all of
that, and I started to learnthat food is a way that people
cope with trauma, in addition toalcohol and the different

(34:43):
coping strategies, I started tojust really feel like I needed
to pay some rent on the planet,not because I wanted to save the
world, but because I was reallycurious and I wanted to help my
dad and I wanted to help myself.
And so, you know, it justturned into this whole thing and
I think the primary thing thatreally really led me to do this

(35:06):
was Ancestrycom.

TOM (35:11):
I was going to ask how you started that journey of starting
to discover all of thisinformation.

LEE (35:24):
Yeah, my friend Katrina Hoskins, who was a Wall Street
Journal staffer, came up to mein the newsroom and she said Lee
, come here, Look at this.
And she showed me herAncestrycom and she was able to
trace where her family was inWest Africa.

TOM (35:36):
It just blew my mind man, have you guys ever tried this?
Have you ever tried it?

MICKEY (35:41):
I thought, it was a little skeptical.
Yeah, I was a conspiracytheorist.

JEFFREY (35:50):
I don't know what to do with my DNA, so I ain't fucking
with it.
Lee have you ever heard of?
I'm sure you have the book AllGod's Children.
All God's Children, yeah, whowrote that, though?
Who was it?
It was written by FoxButterfield.
The book is very similar toyour thing.
The Baskets are a family.

(36:10):
Their family, live in Harlemand one of the kids, his name,
is Willie Boscus.
He's actually still alive, he'sin jail.
He's been in jail forever andthey kind of did a study on the
Boscus Willie in particularabout like his you said trauma
and why he acted out, becauseyou know he was a very violent

(36:32):
kid and it's a thick book too,and in the book they travel all
the way.
They travel back to SouthCarolina.
That's where they're from, thefamily's from, and they do a
whole historical research about.
South Carolina was technicallythe most violent state during
slavery and Jim Crow, I mean,they were all violent, but South

(36:55):
Carolina in particular wassupposed to be super brutal
because South Carolina had themost for lack of a better term
white trash people.
So they use the psychology well, as long as I'm better than so.
They put the crazy white trashpeople to look over the black
people and they were veryviolent to them because they
were like as long as I'm betterthan you, then I'm better.

(37:17):
And so they take that traumafrom that and they travel all
the way through to discover whyWillie and his brothers and
sisters were so violent.
Because that was passed downfrom the 1800s to the 1980s or
90s is when Willie got arrested.
It's a very interesting book, soit's kind of when you talk

(37:40):
about your stuff.
It immediately reminded me ofthat book.
I read that book years ago.
It was a very interesting thing, like how all that trauma and
that violence is just passeddown, you know, from white folks
of slavery all the way through.
And so our parents,grandparents, whatever, did the
same thing to us that got doneto them.

(38:03):
And it just keeps going andgoing and going, even now when I
look online and I'll seesomebody post their grandmother
and their grandmother's yellingat the kids.
Y'all sit the fuck down overthere and people will be
laughing.
Oh, grandma, I'm like that'snot funny to me, bro, that's not
funny at all.
She obviously is traumatized orsomething.

(38:23):
For her to even talk to littlekids like seven-year-old kids
like that, and what is shepassing down to them?
And the fact that y'all arelaughing at it is condoning it
Like, oh, that's just Aunt Tracy, that's just how she is.
Nah, that's not.
I mean, I'm on the years again,tom.
Girlfriends right, always talkabout girlfriends.

TOM (38:43):
Always with the girlfriends Over my girlfriends right.

JEFFREY (38:44):
Always talk about girlfriends, Always with the
girlfriends I've had over mytime.
I've had a few, I guess,run-ins with girls' mothers
because they thought they couldtalk to me like that, because
that's what they knew.
And I'm like yo, who are youtalking to?
I'm not your child,Respectfully, I'm not going to
curse them out or anything likethat, but I'm not your child.

(39:04):
Who are you talking to?

LEE (39:18):
Respectfully, I'm not going to curse him, I don't know like
that.
But like I'm not your child,who are you talking to?
You can't just talk to me crazy, just because I'm younger than
I traced my family 400 yearsback and I started sharing the
information with my dad, and Ithink the impetus of my dad
opening up and giving four yearsof interviews was the fact that

(39:39):
I, in the process of myresearch, discovered that my
grandfather, his father, wasmurdered and he had never told
me that.
And my grandfather, his father,was murdered and he had never
told me that.
And my grandparents, hisparents, both of their fathers
were murdered in Alabama whenthey were nine and five years
old, and since 1837, I've had amurder in my family every

(40:02):
generation through 2015.
And you know, I'm one of the fewBlack people who have had the
privilege and the blessing to beable to have these skills and
go back and actually have thetime, or make the time to do
this research, and so I don'tknow how different my story is

(40:24):
from the average Black Americandescendant of slavery and Jim
Crow survivors, which I believethat Jim Crow was a system of
apartheid.
It's not acknowledged as such,but we have never America has
never acknowledged that millionsof black people, for 100 years
after slavery, went through acrime against humanity that was

(40:47):
committed against our families,Because in my case, in my family
, my great grandfathers who weremurdered, the white men who
murdered them were never broughtto justice and our crime was
always entrepreneurship.
In many cases and I think thatyou know the Tulsa Massacre too
their crime was entrepreneurshipand building wealth.

(41:10):
If you go across the countryand you look at our history, you
know we have these, all ofthese podcasts and everything
about branding andentrepreneurship, and you know,
when you see Black people whohave done this work, you've got
to understand these Black peoplehave slayed dragons because the
reality of the situation isthey were under great pressure

(41:33):
to.
You know Byron Allen, you knowOprah Winfrey, and I use
hypothetical examples you knowBob Johnson, Robert Smith all of
these people we had an ideathat you know, yeah, they're no
longer being murdered for theirambition, but it's not that

(41:53):
different.
I mean, we still.
There's still a lot of, youknow, insidious resentment of
black people who are, who areupwardly mobile and I've always
strived to be an upwardly mobileperson and an outspoken young
boy and all of that and I thinkthat I would say that a lot of
the whippings that I got as akid were because of that,

(42:14):
because of asking questions andsilence Black children at a
young age to teach them tocomply, in the same way that
Kunta Kinte was beaten intosubmission and told to comply
when he wanted to have to keephis name and his heritage.

(42:37):
And so I just became, you know.
All of this information cameflooding to me and I kind of
decided that I was going to tryto shift my career and write a
book on this, and so Iresearched for three years.
I had to determine what thebook was, and then I submitted

(42:59):
the proposal for Nobody's Slave.
There was an auction for thebook and HarperCollins won the
auction and I was able to.
You know, took 10 years towrite this book and it comes out
in January.
But but knowing that I had abook coming out, you know I'm

(43:19):
not going to say that it was allabout altruism, it was also
about capitalism, which Ibelieve in.
I'm passionate, if notself-righteous, about the idea
of black people, you know,owning their brand and and also
in prospering and, you know,continuing to pass down
generational wealth based ontheir intellectual property I

(43:42):
got the book deal.
And then I remember I did aninterview and it was one of my
last.
It was probably one of my lastlike in real interviews and I
interviewed Jimmy Iovine andJimmy Iovine.
So we're just sitting around.
We did the interview in astudio and he said how are you

(44:07):
doing?
You know?
Yeah, I remember you know wetalked before a couple of years
ago with Priyanka and everything.
But then he was telling meabout the deal that he was doing
with Apple and Dr Dre andeverything.
And when we were talking hesaid so what have you been up to
?
And I said, well, I got thisbook that I'm doing and
hopefully, you know, maybe oneday it'll be turned into a movie
and it's kind of a route forthe 21st century and all that.
And then we were about to startthe interview and I said you

(44:29):
ready to go?
And he goes wait, Lee.
And I said what?
And he goes the book is allthat matters.
That book is going to be socritical.
This is cool, but get that bookdone because that's your plan.
And at that point he helped meunderstand that you are in a

(44:49):
pivotal, pivotal time in yourcareer and this is a time now
for you to to start to be moreabout what you're trying to do
and your vision and your peopleand what you want to leave the
kind of mark that you want toleave on the world.
And that made a tremendousimpact on me because I felt like
I needed to hear that.

(45:10):
I think all of you probablyhave dreams, and it can be very
lonely when you dream becauseyou could be working on this on
the underground A lot of times.
You don't want people to knowwhat you're working on, but it
would be nice to get somereinforcement from people who
you trust and who you admire,who you know.
And so when I got thatreinforcement, then I started to

(45:33):
think more consciously aboutwhat I was doing, because I
didn't want people to think well, isn't this the guy who was
writing about General Motors anddoing celebrity interviews?
Now, all of a sudden, he'swriting about intergenerational
effects of racism and childhoodtrauma through Jim Crow, slavery
and integration on the blackfamily.

(45:53):
How is this possible?
And so I did that fellowshipand I did a Logan nonfiction
fellowship, and then I now I'm afellow at the Carter Center in
mental health journalism, and soI really made it a point to get
the training to be able notjust to to write about this but
to be able to interview peoplewith about trauma, with the

(46:15):
level of compassion that we needto, Because I've covered murder
, suicides.
You know a black man who waskilled like six weeks before he
was to get his PhD from Columbiaand you know I had to go down
and interview this guy'sgrandmother and all of these
people.
And I feel like, even when Iwas doing that interview, if I

(46:38):
could go back over and do itagain, I wouldn't do it the way
I did it, because I felt like Imight have even re-traumatized
certain people in the processwith some of the questions that
I was asking in the manner inwhich I was asking them.
So you know I'm a student, butthat was how I did it.
I did it gradually, it wasn'tlike I just popped on the scene.

(47:00):
And my last assignment at thejournal I ended up covering
education assignment at thejournal.
I ended up covering education,so I went back into writing and
I switched to the New YorkBureau and the pandemic happened
.
And then I ended up coveringthe effects of the pandemic on
the million children in the NewYork public schools, which is,

(47:21):
by the way, 85% black and brownkids and so I learned a
tremendous amount of that and,you know, I was able to, I think
, start to work on my compassionand my empathy and making sure
that I was kind of rootingmyself in the experience of
these young children who weretrying.
You know, I had one youngstudent who I just to this day

(47:44):
she's one of my heroes.
She was, you know, worriedabout whether she was going to
be able to still be thevaledictorian and graduate at
the top of her class because shedidn't have a computer at home
and that was hard for her to nothave that computer and that was
a level of anxiety and stressthat people can't relate to.

(48:05):
So I tried to write about thatyoung lady and you know
different people like that, butthat was really what positioned
me and made me feel comfortable.
And so, probably about twoyears before I left the Wall
Street Journal, I startedplanning the podcast for the
creation of what Happened inAlabama, the series that I just

(48:27):
dropped with American PublicMedia, and I started shopping
that back then.
And so when I left the WallStreet Journal I had that deal
in place and it wasn't quite inplace, but we were almost done
with the deal and it was, youknow, a real opportunity for me
then to transition into theO'Brien Fellowship for Public

(48:50):
Service Journalism, which wasbehind at Marquette University,
which was behind the whatHappened in Alabama project, and
so I think it's important forpeople when they talk about
corporate, when you're in acorporation and you kind of feel
trapped in a cubicle, we allget into these situations where

(49:12):
we can get frustrated and wemight even.
You know, I had a lot of myfriends who were I mean, I was
happy where I was, but I had alot of my friends who were in
the music and entertainmentindustry who would say, man, you
need to quit that job, Quitmessing around.
Man, you have so much more todo, You're so much better than

(49:35):
that.
And I wouldn't say I wouldnever say that I was better than
that, but I would say that Ikind of need.
I was never going to be reachmy full potential.
Some things run their courseand, as an employee, you're
always going to be limited bythat.
Now, the one thing thatcorporations do for you, however

(49:57):
, is they enable you to savemoney and to grow money.
To grow money, If you're nothopping from company to company,
and you're aggressive as aninvestor, as a young person,
then you get yourself into aposition where, by the time you
leave, you won't have to worryabout money, about retirement,

(50:17):
because you'll have all that inplace.
And so I think I had gotten toa point where the timing was
right and I'm a man of faith.
So, you know, I prayed a lotand I meditated a lot, I talked
to my dad a lot.
My dad was a big supporter andyou know and I just think that I
didn't know my dad was going todie shortly after I left the

(50:40):
Wall Street Journal and all that.
But I certainly or actuallybefore I left the Wall Street
Journal, but I certainly had himin my corner enough to make
that decision and to go forward.
And that's what I always tellpeople Don't leave your gig
until you have your other stuffin place.

(51:00):
Now, if something happens andthere's a layoff or something,
you can't really control that,and there's a layoff or
something, you can't reallycontrol that.
But if you can get a buyout,that's even better, because then
you can apply that money toyour new situation.
And so I always tell peoplethat, yes, work your nine to

(51:21):
five, but make sure you workyour five to nine, Because your
five to nine is you.
If you're going to go andyou're going to work hard and
nobody works nine to five, let'sface it, You're working.
You know you're working 18 hourdays a lot of times in
corporate America.
If you're trying to make adifference, but don't
shortchange yourself Make sure,if you're working that 18 hour
day, that you put yourselfthrough hell on the weekend If

(51:42):
you have to to work the wholeweekend for your dream, for your
company and what you're tryingto build.
Take that experience that yougot from them, take the context
that you got from them and putit and pour it into your dream.
And so I had already had a lotof things in place.

(52:05):
I always tell people that Don'tnot have stuff in place because
then you're going to a way party.
It's much easier to be chilland smile and just sit there.
Thanks a lot.
What am I doing?
Well, I have this thing thatworked out for me or whatever,

(52:28):
and it's much better to do that.
I think people don't havepatience and they're not
strategic and they don't thinkabout how do I build this, and I
think the only reason that Iwas able to really know.
That was because I studied allof these celebrities and I saw
how they were able to do it, andthen that gave me almost an

(52:50):
intuitive understanding.
There wasn't a book thatsomebody handed me.
It was life experience and Iwas able to figure that out.
That was how that worked.

TOM (53:00):
A counterpoint to that, though, I would say, is,
sometimes you can't hold back,though, because you could always
talk yourself out of notfollowing the dream.
You can always talk yourselfout.
You can over, always, overthink, and I think each of us and I
know myself, you know, when Ijust jumped out just more
recently, like most people toyour point said yeah, that's a
no brainer, you should have donethis years ago.

(53:21):
And I know Mickey, you have agreat story.
I mean, mickey was working at alaw firm until somebody finally
told him you got to follow yourpassion, you got to follow your
music.
You got to follow that, and Ido think we all have those
people in our lives, and it's areally tough decision, because
you got to know it's not alwayscrystal clear when the right
moment is, and you got to trustyourself sometimes, and you got

(53:42):
to trust the people around youthat are giving you good advice
to make that leap of faith.

LEE (53:47):
Yeah, one thing that I learned recently and it was a
real painful lesson is that ifyou have people in your life who
are giving you constructivecriticism, that's what you want
it to be constructive criticismcriticism when you're trying to

(54:08):
build this stuff.
You'll know that it wasconstructive if, when you
actually achieve the stuff thatthey were saying that you so
importantly had to do, that theyactually are engaged with that
and they actually are happy whenyou achieve your goal.
Okay, because I have a coupleof people who were like when is
the book coming up?
When are you going to do thepodcast?
You got to hurry up.
You got to get this done.

(54:29):
Man, what's going on?
Oh my God, you can't be such aperfectionist.
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And then when I hit 25 on ApplePodcasts top shows, I didn't
hear from when are you at Bruh?
Right, you wanted to talk to meabout Getting my stuff together

(54:51):
and what's Going on with mybook.
And when I got the book dealand we're putting Out excerpts,
we're putting out Seasons andyou know you Haven't heard the
podcast.
You were so concerned about itback Then, but now you can't
Listen to it.
What do you think about it.
Let me know if I, if I did whatyou were telling me that I

(55:11):
should do.
Yeah, and so you have to reallylook at the people who, who
really a lot of times aretelling, talking to you in your
ear and interfering with yourself-talk at the time, and you
have to understand that noteverybody who's talking to you
is really genuine with that.

(55:32):
Okay, and I don't mean to benegative, but I'm just trying to
share with you this ideabecause you know haters, you
know are no matter what you do,you're always going to have
haters.
But the truth is you got to getit from here.
Always going to have haters,but the truth is you got to get
it from here.
The good and the bad Hear it,but get it from within.

(55:55):
It doesn't matter what peoplethink.
A lot of times what matters isthe result and what is the
quality of the stuff that youdid.

TOM (55:59):
Yeah, it's great words.
All right, we're kind of heavy.
I want to get a little lightfor a second, because I wouldn't
be telling your whole story ifI didn't ask about music.
I got some music guys on hereand I mean, when I talk about
music, I joke with these guysthat I'm going to win a Grammy
one year.
But you actually won a Lennonsongwriting contest in 2011.

(56:24):
You released an album, amongother things, in 2015, about
your dad.
I mean, when I say you're intomusic, it's not just on the side
I mean, you are truly amusician.

LEE (56:36):
Yeah, I did an album recently, 2021 as well, and I
have done work with the Wiggles,the children's group from
Australia.
Yes, that's right, and you knowI grew up around music.
I'm from Minnesota, so you knowI grew up on the street from
Prince's guitar player there yougo.

(56:58):
My dad played the guitar andplayed a song.
He played the Cross, the songthe Cross cross, in the private
ceremony of Prince's family, theChristian side of his family.
My dad sang at that funeral.
My dad played guitar with thesounds of blackness and sang
with the sounds of blackness andwas in sixties do out groups

(57:21):
when he was growing up.
And, but most importantly, hewas a music.
He was a musician for 30 yearsat our church, mount Olivet
Baptist Church, playing theguitar and singing in the choir,
and so I grew up singing andplaying the drums behind my dad
and I was lucky to be, orblessed to be able to play, you

(57:42):
know, with a lot of those guysand just kind of, when I was a
kid they used to call it keepingtime.
You know, keep time, lili, youknow.
And so I would keep time, youknow, from the time I was about
nine years old and I just grewup on a lot of like the Isley

(58:12):
Brothers, and then, you know, mymusic.
I came in with the hip hop andeverything.
My dad was kind of kind ofhumored by hip hop.
He thought it was a theme andthen later a trend, and later on
he was like man, you know youkept telling me that this hip
hop thing was real, you know,and so I grew up singing in a

(58:33):
lot of churches, but I wasblessed that I didn't have one
of those.
Like parents, my parents werenot against secular music and so
I sing in bands.
When I was a kid, when I was 12years old, I was in a band and
we performed all over and wesang like the modern hits, you

(58:56):
know, and we also sang somesongs from the 60s and stuff.
And then I just kind of grew tothe point where I think from
that point forward I always hada band, even when I was a
reporter.
I stopped really having bandswhen I left the Milwaukee
Journal Sentinel but I think oneof my last shows was opening up

(59:17):
for Common at the SummerfestMusic Festival.
And the reason I stopped havingbands and moved more into
songwriting and recording andthen the stuff that I did with
the Wiggles was because itbecame too hard to manage the
career with the newspaper careerwith the music I just really

(59:40):
have had.
Music has been a big blessing.
It is because that's anotherthing that you can't really
divorce from who you are.
It helps you in so many ways onknowing music.
You can connect with people andmusic in the same way you can
connect with someone you don'teven know.
A Black man could connect witha KKK member talking about

(01:00:03):
sports or music.
Because it is that universalSports and music right there,
there it's just universal anduniting, and so it's been a
blessing and it also helped me alot as an interviewer, because
when you you know you got lionelrichie sitting in front of you
or you got paul stanley fromkiss sitting in front of you and
and they know, when know music,they know you know music, and

(01:00:28):
then they start to open up morebecause then they're like man, I
love this, I love sitting heretalking to this guy who just
talked about this.
You know very you know this,this rare Jimi Hendrix song, or
the riff on the minor key melodyon this song, and how did you

(01:00:49):
come up with the hook for this?
And you know, those kinds ofquestions are questions that
musicians love, but they're alsoquestions that usually only
musicians will ask.

MICKEY (01:00:59):
I mean, for me, I've learned a lot here and you know,
as someone who is a musician,entrepreneur and who wants to
push forward the culture interms of art and finance, right,
so it's a speaker at Earn yourLeisure Conference.

(01:01:25):
You know I'm very into financerap, right.
Like I talk about credit andreal estate and the stock market
, I rap about these things Music, finance and even

(01:01:45):
entrepreneurism.
I think it's just fantastic.
Along with the basic history ofyou know, you looking to figure
out and find out the path ofyour ancestry is just.
It's just been an incredibleconversation.
All in all, Thank you.

LEE (01:02:01):
You know, I really appreciate that, and I feel like
learning about my ancestry, forwhat happened in Alabama and
for I Am Nobody's Slave changedme profoundly, and the way that
it changed me most wasunderstanding that, yes, my
family went through trauma, butmy family and all of our Black
families were resilient.

(01:02:21):
All of our Black families wereresilient.
They were determined, they werepatriotic, they served their
country even when they didn'tget the GI Bill.
They loved America when Americadidn't love them back.
We are the most committed tocapitalism.
We are the most committed tofree speech.

(01:02:42):
We are the most committed toactivism, to pushing America to
reach her potential, and we'restill doing it.
And so that is why I'm this way, because of those ancestors.

TOM (01:02:54):
Lee, it has been an absolute pleasure to reconnect
with you.
Thank you, I'm glad that.
I mean we met 15 years ago.
I'm honored to say I would beone of those guys that when you
came through the airport I'drecognize you.
I would be the first one tocome up and talk to you, but
reporter, podcaster, author andmusician, lee Hopkins, tell us
one more time the name of thebook, when and where we can find

(01:03:16):
it.

LEE (01:03:17):
Yeah, the book is available for sale now.
It's called I Am Nobody's Slavehow Uncovering my Family's
History Set Me Free.
Please preorder the book so youdon't forget.
It comes out in January, butyou can help me with my sales
now.
And then the podcast is calledwhat Happened in Alabama.

(01:03:38):
You can find it atwhathappenedinalabamaorg or on
Apple, spotify or anywhere likethat, so in everywhere where
podcasts are sold are published.
So, thank you.
God bless you, man.
Thank you for having me on theshow.
It's an honor and a privilege,and just keep up the work that
you're doing.
I appreciate it and I hope torun into you guys down the line.

(01:03:59):
Maybe we'll do somethingtogether, but that's how this
happens.
You know, this is how peoplecome together in the culture,
exactly what you're doing now,and this is a credible platform
because you're helping me reachthe people who I really want to.
I really want to read, so Ireally appreciate you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

TOM (01:04:24):
That's our show.
Tune in to Unglossy, the codingbrand and culture, on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or YouTube,and follow us on Instagram at
UnglossyPod to join theconversation.
Until next time, I'm Tom Frank.

JEFFREY (01:04:37):
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, smicky that was good.