September 18, 2024 • 45 mins
Get ready to be inspired by Stirman, a visionary who has left a lasting impact on the tech and mindfulness landscapes. He shares his transformative journey of building Medium, the platform that bridged long and short-form writing, and his personal story of discovering meditation amidst the high-pressure of Silicon Valley, leading to a more grounded family life. This episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at Medium's creation and Sturman’s decision to leave.
Stirman also discusses his encounter with George Mumford, mindfulness coach to NBA legends like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, and how it inspired him to found Lucid, scaling mindfulness training globally. With real-world success stories from athletes and executives, this chapter showcases the shift from skepticism to mainstream acceptance of mindfulness.
We also dive into Sturman's time at Facebook and the emotional journey behind the launch and closure of the Bars app. From childhood piano lessons to his passion for hip-hop, he reflects on the release of his album "Beats for Friends," featuring contributions from the Bars community. Tune in for insightful anecdotes, industry wisdom, and a celebration of creativity and mindfulness.
"Unglossy: Decoding Brand in Culture," is produced and distributed by Merrick Creative and hosted by Merrick Chief Creative Officer, Tom Frank, hip hop artist and founder of Pendulum Ink, Mickey Factz, and music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to hear this thought-provoking discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @UnglossyPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://unglossypod.buzzsprout.com/.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
previously on on glossy, we built probably 10 or
11 different products, um, butthe first one was, uh, what
became medium?
The blogging platform?
Yeah, um, you know, and at thetime, uh, you know, we we kind
of joked and that ev had doneblogger, which was long form
writing.
They did twitter, which waslike short form writing, and it
(00:21):
said, you know, maybe there'ssomething in the middle, and so
we called it medium, but also,like, the medium is the message
and that's where the name camefrom.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
From the top.
Yeah, I'm tom frank I'm mickeyfax and I'm jeffrey sledge
welcome to unglossy deconingbrand and culture.
I'm tom partner and chiefcreative officer at Merit
Creative.
This is Mickey Fax, hip-hopartist and founder and CEO of
Pendulum Inc.
And that is Jeffrey Sledge, aseasoned music industry veteran
(00:53):
who has worked with some of thebiggest artists in the business.
We're here to explore themoments of vulnerability,
pivotal decisions and creativesparks that fuel the
relationship between brand andculture.
Get ready for athought-provoking journey into
the heart and soul of brandingthe unscripted, unfiltered and
truly unglossy truth.
Unglossy is brought to you byMerrick Creative.
(01:13):
Hooking to skyrocket yourbusiness's visibility and drive
growth.
At Merrick Creative, we solveyour brand and marketing woes
With big ideas, decades ofexperience and innovative
solutions.
We'll draw in your targetaudience and keep them hooked.
Remember, creativity is key tosuccess.
Partner with Merit Creative andunlock your brand's potential.
Learn more at meritcreativecom.
(01:35):
And now part two of ourconversation with Sturman.
We pick up on his decision toleave Medium.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So let's see, I'm just going to go through my
story here.
So I was at Medium for aboutfive years proper.
I ran a bunch of differentteams.
I was an executive there forbasically the whole time and I
got to a point where I realizedI'd spent almost a decade of my
life helping Ev facilitate theexchange of stories and ideas in
(02:03):
the world and, as proud as I amof what Twitter and Medium
became, that was really Ev'smission, that was his vision and
, like I said, I'm generally nota good employee because I like
to pursue my own shit.
I like to pursue what I do.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
That's what you said at the very beginning, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And at the time a few things were really popping for
me.
So one I had really gotten intomeditation.
And working in Silicon Valley,high stress, high pressure I
really learned to kind of liketake a breath, slow down, tune,
tune into what's happeninginternally with me, learn to
meditate and I got some calm,some peace, some happiness.
I was performing better.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Were you always a meditation guy, or is it
something that now?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Never, in fact, because um, at medium Ev started
to get a little into meditation.
We brought in this guy, willKabat-Zinn and Jon Kabat-Zinn
they're like celebrities in themindfulness space.
I didn't know that at the timebut they came in to embarrass
this guy that we're paying to behere.
But, like, this ain't for meand I grew up in Texas, like you
know, evangelical Bible, beltlike, and, and at this point
(03:11):
religion was really kind of aput off for me and, to my
discredit, I didn't think Ithought about meditation as like
an Eastern religion thing and Ihad just moved to California.
So I'm going to be open-minded,experienced it all.
But I realized after a couple ofsessions like man, I'd leave
these little meditations justreally feeling good and I
started to, you know, reallylean into it a little bit and
I'm all in or all out on mostthings.
(03:32):
So I just went all in onmeditation.
I'm going to like retreats, I'mgoing to like silent weeks and
different things, and you know.
And then my wife, I was all inand my family started like, I
started teaching my wife and mykids and they started learning
and seeing more grounded.
Our family was happier.
And so I knew meditation wasmindfulness, and I knew
(03:52):
mindfulness was going to be athing, and so I was like I'm
really excited about that.
I knew I want to do anothertech startup because that's just
what I do, that's what you do,that's what I know and that's
the networks that I built.
And I'm a huge sports junkie.
I'm a I'm an nba hoops headthrough and through, rocking my,
my husa rockets.
Uh right, now you can see, I got, I got a cabinet nba jams
(04:13):
runner right here.
I got the papa shot in the backlike I'm a hardcore husa rock
now.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Were you at texas when kevin durant was there?
That's the first thing thatpopped in my head.
It was after you.
He was a little after me I was,I guess you would be a little
after yeah, yeah I was there,vince williams was a quarterback
.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I see ricky williams break the rushing record while I
was there in the late 90s, so alittle bit earlier, uh, there
than him.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
But before you continue, I want to ask these
two guys meditation have youguys have you?
Are you guys in the meditationat all?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Um, I'm like, I'm going to kind of say yes and no,
Like I have a tendency to like,do some shit and then move to
the next shit.
You know so.
So, while you know, I've I'vebeen in that space, but then
I'll just go to the next object.
Oh cool, I did that.
I'm going to go to the nextthing.
But I mean, when I was in thatspace, it definitely helps.
(05:05):
And I've been thinking latelyabout to try to get back into
that space.
And you know, dailyaffirmations and all that it
makes you, makes you feel, itdoes make you feel good and open
pause when to start your daylike that and I haven't done
that in a while and I'm feelingkind of cloudy lately.
That, and I haven't done thatin a while and I'm feeling kind
(05:27):
of cloudy lately.
So, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,I'm gonna try to get back into
it, Cause I, you know it, itworked, it works for me.
I should say I don't know ifeverybody, but when I was doing
it, it works for me.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Um, for me I'm not.
It's not really like ameditation thing, Um, more like
I need to get back into theprayer thing and I think there's
like this congruent spacebetween meditation, prayer, yoga
and just kind of sitting insilence and absorbing the
atmosphere and environment.
Now that you know, my son isgetting on the bus in the
(05:57):
mornings.
He's getting up at 5.30 am withme, so from 5.30 to like like 6
30 is basically getting themready, and then I just go
straight to the gym and thentypically I would probably go
and pray.
But I've just kind of, you know, I got my studio set up and you
get busy in life.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, that's where I'm at.
I wish I did more of it, but Ifeel like I'm constantly on the
run and I think I think you'reright.
I think it would the cloudinessor just the anxiety sometimes.
I don don't know.
Maybe, maybe you need to gethelp us get all into this again.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, look.
I'll be honest, like my own.
You know, daily meditationpractice isn't on point right
now.
I'm not sitting every day andmeditating.
But.
But now I'll say, like when I,when I started my next company
for it was, it became amindfulness company for athletes
I'll tell you about it in asecond.
But but this was right whenthere was actually, you know,
studies and real sciencehappening around the benefits of
(06:50):
mindfulness.
It is now well documented.
You can't argue against thebenefit of it, like the medical
field knows that, the sciencefield knows it.
It was hard, you know, evenfive or ten years ago, to
explain it.
Because you know if you eatbetter, you lose weight.
You know if you run on thetrack you'll get better, better
cardio.
You know if you lift weights,you'll get stronger.
But like now, this, this guruis telling you like do nothing
for 30 minutes and that shouldmake you better.
(07:12):
But it's like hard to quantify.
Like it was.
It was a little bit likeselling snake oil back then.
But I was at one of these.
I was actually speaking at thismindfulness conference in San
Francisco and one of the otherspeakers was this guy named
George Mumford, and GeorgeMumford has a book out there.
He was Phil Jackson's guru.
So you know, Phil Jackson'soften thought of like kind of
the Zen Buddha, Zen master.
Well, this guy taught PhilJackson what he knew.
(07:33):
And so George Mumford wasroommates with Dr J.
They both were going to try togo to play ball but George blew
out his knee, ended up in prison, came out, was really on this
like Zen Buddhism kick andreally realized in prison he was
helping prisoners get rightinside their head and he really
kind of realized like that wassomething really special with
(07:55):
that.
So he ended up working withsome basketball players, hooked
up with Phil Jackson, and thisguy was a mental skills coach
for Jordan Kobe Shaq.
I mean he followed Phil up fromChicago to LA, even to New York
in his last stop, and so thisguy was speaking at this
conference about how he wasusing mindfulness to help these
(08:16):
guys perform.
And back in the 90s no one wastalking about meditation.
No one was even talking aboutyoga.
This was definitely someEastern art, mystical shit.
But he knew he was ontosomething.
And I'll tell you what Jordanknew he was onto something.
Kobe knew he was onto something.
At that level, you know, thereal, true performers will find
little differentiator to elevatethemselves.
(08:37):
And for Jordan and Kobe, it waspracticing their mental game.
They were meditating, they werevisualizing.
Practicing their mental game,they were meditating, they were
visualizing, they wereproactively working on building
their confidence, while theirpeers were just working on their
handles or working on the jumpshot or working in the weight
room, and so that was kind oftheir secret sauce.
And so, the irony there is,they didn't talk about it
because they didn't want theircompetitors to have it.
(08:58):
Well, fast forward, 20 somethingyears later, george is in his
70s, he's retired, he's nowworked with all and he worked
with all my NBA heroes you knowlike.
And once his story becamepublic and once Jordan and Kobe
got out the league, they wouldtalk about this guy.
I mean, jordan said GeorgeMumford saved his life, you know
, and said that he wouldn't doanything without him.
So this guy had incredible crab.
(09:19):
He's getting older and when Imet him at this conference, he
just he seemed a little sad thatwhat he knew wasn't bigger,
like more people didn't knowabout it.
And he said back then he washolding onto it because it was a
competitive advantage he wasselling.
But now he just wanted theworld to know you can work on
you know what's between yourears, like you work on your body
and your skills and everythingelse that can really help you.
And that had this moment ofrealization like shit, that's
(09:42):
what technology is great at.
Technology is great at scalingthings globally really fast.
And so I said your wisdom, mytech chops, like I think we
could bring this to people.
And so I started a companycalled Lucid.
We built some curriculum on aphone.
It was like kind of like aHeadspace or Calm type app.
It was really geared atmindfulness for performance,
(10:05):
because while this was happening, headspace was starting to get
a little traction, calm wasstarting to get traction.
It was really about like take abreak from your day, take a
breath, calm down, de-stress andlike that's all great, but in
an NBA court or in a SiliconValley boardroom, you need to
perform.
When you're on a mic, you needto perform.
You know when you're on a mic,to perform, and so there was
(10:26):
something really magical to meabout like utilizing these same
skill sets to be better atsomething, and so I raised money
on this idea to like usemindfulness to help athletes get
better musicians perform betterboard members, you know, be
more focused and confident inthe boardroom and so created a
whole company around it andraised some money, started
working with his connections andsome of the other mental skills
(10:50):
coaches that we brought instarted rocking with some young
kids.
Our idea was like let's figureout who's kind of next up coming
into the league, because theolder guys are already getting
inundated with sponsorship dealsand they're hard to get a hold
of, and George Mumford's, youknow the Kobe's and Jordan's
were already out the league, andso I had this brought in this
one mental skills coach who hadworked with Aaron Gordon since
(11:14):
he was 12 years old, when he wasin junior high.
He was working with Ben Simmonsin Australia.
He worked with Carl AnthonyTowns before he came to the
league, so this guy was alreadyon it and he was teaching these
guys.
He said he had a crew of aboutfour or five guys that he just
knew back in 2017 or 18, likethese guys are going to be
something Now like fast forward.
Jalen Brown finals.
(11:35):
Mvp Aaron Gordon found his homein Denver and then won a
championship.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Cats dominated and got robbed in a dunk contest.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yo, I was there that night.
Oh, you were there.
I was there.
I couldn't believe it.
I was like dude.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
He's doing shit I've never seen done.
This dude is catching the shitoff the fanatic.
He threw it under his legs.
How is this?
How is this not 20s, let alone10s?
I'm still mad about that andthat's why he don't do the dunk
contest anymore.
He I'm still mad about that andthat's why he don't do the dunk
passes anymore.
He's like you're going to robme again.
I mean, peace is at Levine, butAaron got robbed twice.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Look, taking nothing away from Levine.
Levine's an incredible leaper,but I was in the hotel room with
AG before the dunk contest.
We were meditating.
We were getting our head rightrolling in the arena with him
sitting in the stands.
I watch, just like everyoneelse did, and I'll tell you that
one iconic dunk like under bothof his legs over there when it
happened it happened so quickpeople were like what just
(12:29):
happened.
And then when they showed thereplay on the jumbotron, people
went apeshit.
I mean that was like.
You know I remember vincecarter, jordan.
You know spud web.
I remember some like iconicdunkers back in the day, but
that show that ag and and Levineput on, I mean we haven't seen
anything like it since.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
No, we haven't.
No, we haven't.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And I'll tell you don't give up on it, Mickey.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I still rock with AG.
I just saw him a couple weeksago, unfortunately, at his
brother's reception for hisfuneral.
His brother passed away.
I had a driving accidentrecently, but I was there.
I'll tell you anytime I hangout with AG.
People are still coming up tohim being like you were robbed
man.
You were robbed.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Just like this guy he was he absolutely was.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
He absolutely was.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Wow.
So what then ultimatelyhappened with Lucid?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah.
So Lucid man.
It was an unbelievable.
Ran Lucid for about three years, raised a couple rounds of
money, got to hire some of mybest friends, got to work with
AGs and dinners with JalenBrowns, and for me that's like
someone who grew up as a hoophead.
I was living my dream.
But I'll tell you, I was maybe alittle too overconfident, a
(13:41):
little overambitious.
I thought, after Twitter andMedium, you just build something
cool and you got like millionsof users.
Well, lucid was inherently adifferent type of business.
It was a different type ofcompany Really.
It was a content productionbusiness and we were like we had
to build out a little studioand we were building these
meditations, we were makingmindfulness music.
We had to crank it out all thetime and keep the app updated.
I thought it was a technologycompany.
It was really a content andselling that content was a lot
(14:06):
harder than I imagined.
I experienced the benefits ofmindfulness in my own life and
after seeing Jordan and Kobe andthese guys doing the same thing
, I thought it was going to bean easy sell.
But what I found out was, likeI said earlier, these athletes
already know they got to eatright, they got to sleep right.
They got to get in the gym.
They got to get in the gym.
They got to get on the track.
They got to work on theirskills.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
They got to do media classes.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
They got all these things.
They already can't do all thatin a day, and now we're telling
them now you got to sit for 30minutes and close your eyes and
breathe.
By the way, it's hard toquantify the results of that.
All the others are reallyeasily quantifiable.
It was a really hard sell, butwhat I learned was the potential
market for that content wasn'tas big as I thought, because
(14:46):
really at each level, at theyouth level, there's a slim tier
, athletes who are really goingto go play in high school.
At high school, even a slimmertier of athletes are going to go
play in college.
At college, a very thin tier ofathletes are going to go pro,
and those thin tiers are reallythe, the communities that are
willing to try the things thatno one else is.
(15:07):
They want that competitiveadvantage.
They're willing to pay.
Those are the ones you knowpaying for dietitians and paying
for private coaches and allthese sorts of things.
And so it was a hard nut tocrack from a business
perspective.
You know, I think toward theend we really got some traction.
We started rocking with BrandonMarshall the inside NFL you
know probably a Hall of Famerreceiver at some point, and he
(15:27):
really had a heart forentertainment.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I think he's right on that fine line.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I mean, he's still got the records, he's still got
the most reception I don't know,yeah but anyway, brandon's a
homie, but, but he really, youknow there's a lot of you know
inner city sports that you knowhave little budgets and we can
start to teach us the kids evenyounger than we thought, because
we you kind of went the prolevel to really validate and
legitimize the company but weended up selling the product to.
(15:56):
You know, some colleges wouldbuy, some high schools would buy
, but they'd buy, you know, evenif we had every single
collegiate athlete in the US onthe program, that's 45,000
people.
From a tech perspective, that'snot a lot more than that.
You know there's less than 5,000professional athletes in the US
, and so we ended up selling to,like you know, soccer camps and
(16:18):
schools, and, like we werealways successful because we
could bring these guys in likeGeorge Mumford and they just all
people.
They inspire people.
It's easy to sell, but it wasalso kind of a boots on the
ground sales business.
It wasn't a tech business thatcould scale overnight like I was
used to, and so, long storyshort, I was really kind of
burnt out creating content everyday, you know, really trying to
just make ends meet for thecompany.
(16:39):
And so in 2018, we just decidedlike let's just disband the
company, but let's just let theapp run.
You know, at that point we hadthousands of people that were
paying monthly subscribers andso it.
You know, that thing was makingmoney and just until I think
last year, basically, but westopped working on it.
(16:59):
Um, my VP of design ended upgoing to Facebook and, uh, got
there about a month later.
It was like Sturman, you got tocome check out Facebook and I
was like hold on, hold on, likeI'm a startup guy.
Yeah, that's going back to theevil empire right there.
Totally.
And I saw, you know, afterTwitter got to a certain size it
was, like you know, politicsand bureaucracy start to creep
in by nature the size of theorganization.
So but I did go to talk.
(17:20):
I went to talk to Facebook andthey kind of sold me to jump in
and help them with kind of theirzero to one innovation muscle
internally.
You know they had caught windthat the FTC was going to come
down and impose some mandates onthem.
It was going to be harder andharder for Facebook to acquire
companies.
Now.
Facebook acquired Instagram atthe right time, acquired Oculus
(17:40):
at the right time.
WhatsApp the biggestcommunication platform in the
world at the right time, and so,like, the acquisition muscle at
Facebook was crazy.
But it's going to be harder andharder to do that, and so the
in-house innovation muscle was alittle bit weaker and so I came
in to kind of work on somedifferent models to really
attract entrepreneurial people,to challenge how big companies
(18:01):
can work and scale and bringsome new ideas to the table and
real talk.
I thought I'd be at Facebookfor a year.
I thought I'd get paid for ayear, learn about big companies
and bounce and start somethingelse.
Well, I just crossed six and ahalf years at the company, still
working on interesting stuff.
It's a crazy place.
I don't know 70,000 employeesit's wild, but I'm learning a
bunch.
I'm getting to work with reallycreative, smart people.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Do you work right there at the Facebook offices?
Do you go in or no?
Not anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
No, Not anymore For pre-COVID.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I was driving 90 minutes one.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Well, I loved being at the office.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I loved working with Greg he did meditation for those
90 minutes, so he's good.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Well, I'll tell you what.
That was a lot of time to be ina car, but as an introvert,
between the craziness at workand the craziness at home, that
was my 90 minutes where I waslistening to my music, my
podcast, and so I kind of missit a little bit, but I want to
go back to one thing you saidwhich I thought was really
interesting.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
I want to put an exclamation mark on that is you
created something with Lucidthat was content creation,
whereas where you had successwith Twitter and then Facebook
and we're going to get into theBars app was really creating a
platform for others to createall the content, which seems
like your key to success andwhere you want it to be A
(19:21):
hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And I think the truth of the matter is I realized
that pretty late in the Lucidgame and I was just so excited
about what we were doing andevery week we were getting a new
pro athlete or a team thatwanted to work with us, and it
was kind of just blinding me toreally step back and think about
how is this business actuallygoing to work?
Because the truth of the matteris the thing that really gets
me going and inspires me isempowering other people to share
(19:43):
what's special about them withthe world.
And we did that at Twitter, wedid that at media and we
definitely did that at bars.
And I think that's the thingI'm good at and, for better or
worse, that's what I like to do.
And so late in the game at Lucid, we thought, like you know,
could this be a platform for,you know, maybe the, the up and
coming mindfulness coaches, theexecutive coaches?
(20:03):
You know that was kind of likean industry that was starting to
bubble up a little bit, but themore I thought about it, the
more I thought, you know, we didsomething really special with
these athletes.
We planted a lot of seeds.
We'll see.
We'll see how they'll bloomlater, but truth of the matter
is after three years I was justburnt trying to run a business
that wasn't taking off like Ithought, and so I decided to
hang it up.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, Wow, I respect it.
Now here.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
I thought we were going to talk about music the
whole time and we haven't evengot to music.
But I guess now I'm starting torealize where the Bars app came
from.
It's all like you're connectingthe dots here.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, I'll connect them literally.
I'll try to do it quick.
I know I'm being long-windedhere, but music has always been
a big part of my life.
My parents put me on pianolessons when I was little.
I started playing guitar when Iwas little.
It's been my main instrument.
I've always likedsinger-songwriters.
I always liked music as a wayto move people and tell stories
(21:05):
and um.
So I was probably in.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I think I was in sixth grade when my friend gave
me a bootleg cassette tape ofeasy e and I was like I never
heard.
I mean well, the only album.
Easy does it, the easy does it,easy does it.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
And I heard it and I was like my parents would not
approve of this and I'm fuckingrocking with this man.
It just the beats the message.
And you know I rocking withthis man, it just the beats the
message.
And you know, I didn't realizethis at the time.
But the thing that reallyfascinated me was like he was
rapping about shit that washappening in Compton.
It was such a different life.
I grew up basically on a golfcourse in a suburb of Houston,
(21:30):
you know.
So like this was not, you know,I was not getting shot at, I
was not having these experiences.
That EZ was in, in, in, uh, in,la, but it just was like I
could imagine, I could see it, Icould hear it and it was like,
you know, his, his way tocommunicate what was happening
in his life through cleverpunchlines and bars and dope
beats, like I just was reallyfascinated by it.
So after that I was like buying, you know, blank tapes at my
little boom box with the recordbutton and I was jamming 97.9
(21:52):
the box, shout out 97.9 the boxin houston, like I think they're
still going.
I'd be listening for the MadHatter in the morning, yes, sir,
and I'd be recording my littlemixtapes, but my whole life I
always played music.
In college I was playing guitarwith some little acoustic
singer-songwriter bands, bands,and you know, hip-hop was always
(22:13):
kind of my, my, my passion, myhobby.
I didn't know if I could ever,you know, actually make anything
.
It's it's somewhat recently,really, since covid, that I
thought, like I can fuck aroundwith the drum machine and npc,
like this ain't rocket science,I can learn some.
I started to learn to produce alittle bit, but after about two
years at facebook, we hadcreated a, a program called npe
(22:37):
New Product Experimentation andI was in charge of running
design and products for it for awhile.
So we were bringing inentrepreneurs from outside of
Facebook to come inside.
We had money, we had engineers,we had designers.
We could help them pursuespecific niche product ideas for
certain communities, realizingthat nothing scales global
overnight Usually you find apocket of people that really
(22:58):
love your shit so much theycan't stop talking about it.
And so, you know, could we findthose pockets of people and
really grow somethingorganically from the inside a
company like Facebook?
And so once we started rockingwith that, you know I was
thinking about, like what kindof communities, you know, could
we support here and music for me, I was like I have the
opportunity to work on music andtech like 100%.
(23:19):
I'm definitely doing that, andat the time there was just a lot
of criticism from really theblack community around decisions
Facebook had made and there wassome ill will and some lost
trust in those communities and Ithought, and also just a few
years prior to this, hip hop hadsurpassed rock as the most
popular genre, I think, in theworld or in the US or something
(23:41):
so like sort of like connectingsome trends together.
And I was like you know whatHip hop has always been really
powerful for me?
Music moves minds.
Facebook has the scale toreally put this in the world in
a way and build a platform forwho are the up-and-comers that
have something to say and theydon't know how to get it to the
(24:01):
world.
And so we dorked around with acouple of different ideas and
the Bars app was the end result.
You're given a platform fordope lyricists and eventually
producers would put their stuffon a product that they could get
more ears, get more eyes andhopefully move minds and change
(24:22):
culture and all the things thathip hop has done for me.
I thought could we scale itthrough this product?
It was hard because Facebook, atthe time was not a trusted
brand.
Facebook had been in the newsall the time for bad decisions
or data breaches or privacyinvasions or whatever it was.
And so actually talking to acommunity that already felt
(24:43):
burned by this company, and so Irealized from the get-go this
was a high risk, high rewardsituation, because one I'm
trying to serve a community thatin many ways, I'm not a part of
.
I mean, you can see me, I lovehip hop.
I don't know, you know it'shard for me to relate to, to
what inner city black kids aredealing with, that they're
loving this music, and so andFacebook was already under so
(25:05):
much scrutiny, like you know,how would how would they look at
this product being founded by awhite dude who likes hip hop
coming out of Facebook, likethere were, like this is it
could be corny was written allover it, you know.
But I thought, look, I don't,I'm okay, embarrassing myself,
I'm okay Failing, I'll learn alot.
I really think there'ssomething special here.
And so there is a lot ofstructure, infrastructure inside
(25:27):
of Facebook.
Now meta, we have, like theinclusive product council.
We have the black act community, like there was.
There was a lot of checks andbalances and and uh, people that
could kind of check me for myown, you know biases, both known
and unknown, and I'll tell yousome early versions of the
product.
We just use some language, likeeven in the app that was, like
you know, the the, the productcouncil was like you can't say
(25:48):
that.
You know, like that's, thatyou're using like lingo and
slang, that, like you know, if,if we use it, it's cool, but
when you use it it's going to beinterpreted a little bit
differently.
And they acknowledged, like Ididn't have any bad intentions
but, like you know, I wasserving a community I wasn't
really part of, which is usuallya disaster, you know, recipe
for disaster.
But I also did really reallybelieve in the power of this
community and I think thatpeople internally saw that and
(26:11):
so let me run with this thing.
And you know we ran it for agood couple of years.
Working with Mickey was one ofthe highlights of the whole deal
, but you know we also rockedwith, you know, jadakiss and
Rhapsody and Toby and Weequayshout out, h-town rapper coming
up.
Like you know, there were somepeople that got on that app that
kind of legitimized it.
Mickey was a huge, huge helpand, just like you know, once he
(26:34):
kind of signed on and we didthe the the bars at Mickey fact
challenge, uh, with him I thinka lot of people in the industry
that follow Mickey and a lot ofthe hip hop you know, die hard.
You're like okay, like we heardabout this thing but like we
kind of thought it was cheesy orcorny, but like once they
opened it they realized likethere was some real spitters on
there.
There was some real kids that,like, had an art form and had
(26:55):
something to say and now had anaudience to say it to.
And so, you know, ran itProbably the most fun I've ever
had in my my career.
Getting to, like, make beatsfor rappers and like, build a
product to make hip hop, youknow, more impactful, was
amazing.
But the truth of the matter is,at the end of the day, you know
, for a product to matter atmeta scale, you know it's
(27:17):
hundreds of millions of peopleat least I don't know if there's
a hundred million wannaberappers in the world, you know
and like.
And that said, like, wedefinitely could have branched
out to other genres.
We could have brought some, youknow, the producer community in
, like.
I think there's still ways thatthat product could have scaled
and continue to make adifference.
But beginning of last year,meta went through a tough round
(27:41):
of layoffs and really had toruthlessly focus on what was
going to be effective andefficient for the company to
invest in, to move the business.
And unfortunately, that wholenew product experimentation Bars
was one of 60 apps that welaunched out of that group and
the whole org just got wounddown.
So nothing survived from that.
Well, no products did but I'lltell you one of the hidden
(28:03):
agendas of starting that team atMeta we were a hundred strong
when we closed it but one of thehidden agendas was, when you
work for a big company like Metalike Facebook, like Twitter,
like Google, like Apple there'sso much process, bureaucracy,
red tape it's really hard to getstuff done, and I came from a
startup background where it'sjust me and a couple of homies
(28:23):
in my garage making shit happenevery day, and so I was
convinced that there was betterways to get work done.
So what we did in that org, Ithink, really helped inform the
larger company in different waysto build products and serve
communities.
And I'll tell you, I still getthanks and appreciation and
kudos inside of the company forstepping into a high risk, high
(28:46):
reward situation serving acommunity I wasn't really a part
of and building some real goodwill and trust and content and a
product, and so I think thatspirit is still very much alive
in the company.
Unfortunately, the product isnot, but you know that's okay.
Like you know, something justhave like a natural life cycle.
And, like you know, I still getand Mickey's probably not
(29:07):
surprised, but I still getpeople all the time Like some of
these guys are in thatcommunity, like yo, we got to
get the bars up going.
How can we, how can I restartthis and, like you know, as as a
passion project, I think it wasreally impactful.
I think if it was a startup Iwas running, I think I could
have really continued to investin and pivot and try different
things, bring in new investors,bring in new talent.
But when this decision camedown to to to ax the org, you
(29:29):
know, so did we ax the productand, you know, nothing but
gratitude and a full heartlooking back.
And it introduced me to youguys and to Mickey and I dropped
an album last week mostlyfeaturing guys from the bars
community, you know, and so,like that is an absolute dream
come true for me.
I never thought I'd get to, youknow, release music that people
are rapping on, and so for meit was an unbelievable, huge win
(29:52):
.
I'm really, really proud ofwhat we did in that product.
And you know, sad, sad is gone,but you know, everything's got
his life cycle well, let's tellthe world about that album.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
It's beats for friends beats for friends.
Hey, I listened to it today.
Hey, what do you think?
I liked it.
Okay, I'll give you my favoritetrack.
Okay, and and it's funny thatthis whole conversation because
this is what I was thinkingabout back when I was listening
to this was go far and for somereason, I put it on in the car
and it was like the most calmingbeat and I felt like I was in
(30:24):
meditation all the way hometoday.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I love it.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I love it I'll tell you full circle, mickey full
circle, you know you know, Ididn't get.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I didn't get a phone call for that album, man, I
don't know.
You know, when I heard it,heard it when he sent me the
link, I was like, oh, you putout an instrumental album
Because you know me.
I'm like there's a lot ofrecords on there, Jeff.
I'm like, OK, I start listening.
I'm hearing people.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I didn't know about it at all.
Y'all got to get to it, you gotto get to it.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I start.
I'm like wait, I didn't get acall.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, you ain't get to.
No bars, no bars.
It's crazy, look ain't noshortcuts.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
In this game I got to start from the bottom and work
my way up to the Mickey Factsand the Jeff Sledges in the game
.
I got to earn that feature.
Homie, I got to earn thatfeature no bars is wild.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Good man it was, you know, like it was really during
covid I really started to thinkabout like I got all this time
on my hands, I'm at home.
I really started, you know,fucking around with some
production, learning how to usethe software, started buying
little drum machines and grooveboxes and and really just
started making beats.
I liked and you know I stilllisten to a wide variety of
music and for me, somethingabout singer, songwriter music,
(31:39):
hip hop, even some like ambientstuff, like anything that moves
me, moves me.
I don't know why, but it does.
And so when I started really Istarted this project late last
year I was looking mygrandfather shout out Herman
Sturman, believe it or not.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, rest in peace.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
But he was.
He was a pianist and he madegypsy music, which was a thing
like back in Lithuania he was.
He grew up in New York.
He was a gypsy music pianistand I still have some his little
45 vinyls and it sounds likewhat you think it sounds like.
It's like piano music, soundlike you hear at a gypsy camp or
something.
(32:37):
No-transcript, maybe it was justtime for me, but I really
stopped giving a fuck whatpeople thought about me, you
know, and like it's one of thebiggest blessings of getting
older and I thought, you know,like I, I always had this
creative pursuits and I had somevalidation that, like my
technology, creative pursuitswere validated because I was
(32:58):
getting jobs, I was getting paid, I was getting, you know,
noticed.
But my music was just kind offor me and I think I just had
this fear of like putting it outthere I'd get clowned, no one
would like it, no one would care.
But just a couple of years agoI was like I don't really care
anymore.
I'm going to make music that Ilike.
I make music that moves me.
My kids will be able to pointto a Spotify link not gonna be a
vinyl anymore, although Ishould get it pressed to vinyl
(33:18):
now.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
You should totally do that.
I should get it pressed tovinyl.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
But it'll be just a moment in time, a snapshot of
what I was into and the people Iwas rocking with.
That I could like kind of leavebehind.
And so I thought you know what,like I know I've got a career
I'm happy with.
(33:42):
I got lots of hobbies.
You know music for me is apassion project.
I put it out there really as ajust kind of a moment in time to
to you know, show and share thekind of music that that moved
me.
And I got to rock with some ofmy homies.
I met through bars and got tofeature them and pay them which
was really amazing to supporttheir dope art from dope people,
and so all those songs move mein some way.
(34:04):
Even like when I was justscouting samples or like kind of
bass stuff off or playing myguitar or playing the keys, if
something a little chordprogression or a melody, just
made me feel something, I waslike that's it.
It.
And so if you listen to it now,like I got some rappers on
there but like go far is not,it's not a hip-hop track, it's
like not at all, yeah, it's got,actually actually got some like
praise and worship, like, uh,like a little christian thing on
(34:28):
there.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
You know, it's not a weird stamp I needed.
I needed something to calm medown, to get me in the right,
the right place, and and that itdid that.
It did it for me.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Well, man, I appreciate that.
Like I said, if one otherperson liked it, that's icing on
the cake.
And since I put it out justlast week, I've just been I'm
not trying to run up mylisteners, not trying to sell
any merch or anything, but justgetting hit up from friends and
family and people just sayingthey rocked it, they felt me,
that moved them, they heardsomething like it has just been
an absolute pleasure, and so I'malready starting to gear up for
(35:00):
, like man, I got to do thisagain and back to the rick rubin
vibes.
You know rick rubin talks about,like the real work is making
art and sharing art.
And going back to making art,and you know, you never know
what's going to pop off andwhat's not, and so like kind of
got out of my head and said youknow, know what, fuck it, I
don't care what people think.
I'm going to make music I likeand put it out there and if it
resonates with people, cool,I'll rock with them.
If it doesn't, cool too.
(35:20):
Like we all like differentstuff.
Art is subjective, you know,and so.
But there is something for methat was a big hurdle of you
know that my friends and familyand kids like Last question
before we close this thing out,Hit me here we go, here we go.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Why?
Why are you?
Why are you didn't give me thebars up, man?
Why you just didn't give it?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
to me.
We talked a lot about this, alot about this.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You should have just handed it over to me.
Man.
Yeah, Slipped out the back door.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
this you should have just handed it over to me.
Yeah, slip out the back door.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Nick, there's nothing would have made me happier to
do that and, I kid you not, wehad.
I went to bat hardcoreinternally for that.
Unfortunately, intellectualproperty laws and meta and
Facebook all got in the way andit.
You know, I probably shouldn'tget into it, obviously for
obvious reasons, but I'll tellyou like.
(36:17):
You tried, you tried, I triedbut not being able to give that
community what they were askingfor when we had what they were
asking for, that was a real hardmoment for me.
I still feel sad about it.
But I also feel, like you know,like people will continue to
find ways for their art to beheard.
And, like you know, maybethere'll be another similar
thing come up.
You know, maybe I'll fuckaround with engineers at some
(36:38):
point and then spend some of onweekend.
I don't know.
Like you know, everything's,everything's on the table, but,
man, I wish, I wish you couldhave had a Mick.
I tried to make that happen,but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I mean, the gesture in itself was unbelievable and
I'm appreciative of that, youknow, because that community,
you know the times that I didpop in and get a chance to see
everybody working.
I'm not sure if the otherambassadors came in and kind of
(37:10):
saw, but I was in there, youknow, and I got a chance to vibe
with a lot of people and a lotof them transitioned over the
pendulum and you know we createdthat community for them and
we've had retreats where theygot a chance to meet in person
and I think that is the kind ofthing that a lot of people yearn
for.
They needed that space and weprovided it for them.
You know we would have done it,you know we would have kept
that, that space going and wavethat flag.
But obviously, you know thebureaucracies and legal jargon
(37:34):
kept the culture fromprogressing.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Mickey, this is a guy you need to get at the next
graduation.
Who Sturman?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah, I've invited Sturman to both graduations.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
We need to get you out there.
He has It'll blow you away whatMickey's doing, because it is
kind of in some ways connectedto what you were doing and it's
very impressive what he's done.
Well, it's it's, it's it's,it's very impressive what he's
done.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Well, I know that and I've seen the pictures from the
graduation.
It just it warmed my heart somuch and I know a lot of those
guys in the bars community endup in Pendulum Inc.
They they talk about bars andPendulum Inc really changing
their lives, and not justbecause more, more of their art
is being heard, but it was realtherapy and healing for some of
those guys going through somereal rough times and be able to
connect with other people withsimilar struggles, sharing their
art in similar ways.
(38:19):
Like.
I'm really proud of what we didand I couldn't be more stoked
about you know mickey is holdingthat torch and pendulum inc is
moving forward with this.
So, so, super stoked.
But before we bounce, before wegot on this, call jeff jeffery,
a little teaser about likesomething we had in common.
And now I'm curious well, well,curious.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, now we've done this interview.
I was actually shadowing you inyour life, talking it because
you're from Houston area.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yes, sir, and.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I A&R'd all the UGK projects.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
No shit really.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
No shit.
And then you went to the Bayand I A&R'd E40 and Too Short.
Then I heard your favoritegroup of all time Tribe Called
Quest.
Yes, sir, I A&R'd.
I started with MidnightMarauders.
I did a promotion on the wardon Low End 3.
I started with.
A&r'd and I did MidnightMarauders on.
(39:18):
Except the last album because Iwas on Epic.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Wow, I did not know that.
Jeff, here I'm talking withMick and Tom.
I want to talk to you, man.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
They were babbling, they were babbling, I was
letting them babble.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
That was Tom.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
I'm the babbling guy, I admit it.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
And then Jeff signed me, so like you got to yeah, and
I signed Mickey too, so likethis whole synergy is there.
And last but not least, youknow, Q-Tip will be at the
graduation in New York City for.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Oh, he's coming.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, yeah, we locked him Big announcement
announcement I locked him in.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I locked him in in april last year.
Wow, the tip to come outnowadays.
You know, that's just a bigthing.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
I'm coming out you just you just reeled him in.
If you have, you have me, I'mcoming out, make for sure of
course we, yeah, we have somefun.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, well, jeff, we got a lot to talk about man I
always like I feel like h towndoesn't.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You know.
It never shows up as a list oflist of, like influential
hip-hop cities.
But you look at ugk, you lookat ghetto boys, you look at dj
screw.
I mean, you got you know mikejones, you know I mean, you got
people at ugk that came out ofthere.
That really had a pretty bigimpact on the, on the path that
hip-hop went and and uh, youknow.
So I'm always, always repping,repping h town and and they're
(40:33):
still producing the artist therethere I'm excited about.
But but, jeff man, I'd love tograb a meal with you sometime
and talk makes you work with allmy idols, all my idols.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Get into it.
Tell you some tribe stories.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Oh my gosh, that's crazy, that is crazy.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
All right, who knew who knew?
All right, sturman, you got totell everybody where can they
find your music.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I am at Sturman everywhere.
S-t-i-r-a-m Sturman.
I'm on Twitter, instagram,facebook, spotify.
Look me up, jam my music If youlike it.
Send me a note, man.
I really appreciate anyone rockwith me If you don't.
That's cool too.
Also, quick shout out to mydaughter.
I started making music.
(41:18):
My daughter's name is GreenleeG-R-E-E-N-L-E-Y.
She put out her first single acouple months ago.
She is 18.
I just dropped her off at CUBoulder last week Freshman there
and so she is starting a wholenew chapter of life.
But she's been DJing, creatingsome house music which she's
teaching me a little bit abouthouse music now.
Some house music which she'steaching me a little bit about
house music.
Now she's got way morelisteners than I do on Spotify.
(41:38):
I'm like my music probablyain't going to be my retirement
ticket, but her music might.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I'm going to blow her up every chance I get House
music is, I don't want to saycoming back, because it never
left, it just went backunderground.
It's starting to pop its headup in different places.
It's going to have another run.
It's going to have another runvery soon.
(42:03):
My theory is, whenever tragicthings happen in this country,
so like in the 20s right withProhibition and all that shit
and people were, you know, andthe crash of World War 29.
Out of that came ragtime.
People wanted to dance, right.
Then in the 40s, world War IICrazy, you know, people dying.
(42:27):
Out of that came rock and roll,early rock and roll, you know,
bo Diddley and that type of shit.
Then in the 60s, vietnam WarStrife.
Out of that came that seconditeration of rock and roll.
Right, people wanted to kind ofbe free and party and have a
good time.
Then in the 70s, you know, gascrash, you know gas prices going
(42:50):
crazy, da-da-da.
Out of that came disco.
So whenever there's really darktimes now I'm talking about
what we just talked about, whichis COVID and that type of thing
, trump and all that type ofstuff Out of that is coming
tempo.
Again, people want to feel good.
(43:11):
That's why your daughter's onto something, because that tempo
and that feeling and that vibethat's coming back like the slow
, it's not, it's not, it's nothappening.
So that's my theory.
I just gave away my theory.
I like that this tempo starts tokick in.
I mean, it's not a theory, it'sthe truth.
It's what happens over time,you know so.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Oh, we've gotten into a lot tonight.
This has been.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
This has been fun.
Yeah, yeah, this has been fun.
Thank you, sir.
I'm so glad we got to reconnect.
I'm I'm thrilled when I just dmsomebody and actually get back
to me.
I owe that to mickey andjeffrey, so, um, it's been great
.
Thank you.
I've learned a ton just sittinghere and listening to you for
the past hour.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I appreciate it.
Thanks for letting me ramble,jeff that was dope it was, it
was really man, I just feelhonored to be connected to you
guys and, like I'll be followingy'all's story, always following
the podcast.
You know we didn't even talkabout AI.
I had this haws Like I want tohear what these guys think about
AI-created art.
That's a whole nother.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Maybe we'll check, you know queue that I'd love to
hear y'all's take on that, butman.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I'll be rapping against AI on Friday.
I'll be watching.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Good luck.
Good luck, homie.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
At Tabernacle in Atlanta.
I'm hosting a whole event, andthen Rick Ross is going to be
performing after.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Amazing.
You know a little something.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
A little something.
All right, folks, that's ourshow.
Tune in to Unglossy, the codingbrand and culture, on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or YouTube,and follow us on Instagram at
unglossypod, to join theconversation.
Until next time, I'm Tom Frank.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Smicky, smicky.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
That was good.
previously on on glossy, we built probably 10 or
11 different products, um, butthe first one was, uh, what
became medium?
The blogging platform?
Yeah, um, you know, and at thetime, uh, you know, we we kind
of joked and that ev had doneblogger, which was long form
writing.
They did twitter, which waslike short form writing, and it
(00:21):
said, you know, maybe there'ssomething in the middle, and so
we called it medium, but also,like, the medium is the message
and that's where the name camefrom.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
From the top.
Yeah, I'm tom frank I'm mickeyfax and I'm jeffrey sledge
welcome to unglossy deconingbrand and culture.
I'm tom partner and chiefcreative officer at Merit
Creative.
This is Mickey Fax, hip-hopartist and founder and CEO of
Pendulum Inc.
And that is Jeffrey Sledge, aseasoned music industry veteran
(00:53):
who has worked with some of thebiggest artists in the business.
We're here to explore themoments of vulnerability,
pivotal decisions and creativesparks that fuel the
relationship between brand andculture.
Get ready for athought-provoking journey into
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(01:35):
And now part two of ourconversation with Sturman.
We pick up on his decision toleave Medium.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So let's see, I'm just going to go through my
story here.
So I was at Medium for aboutfive years proper.
I ran a bunch of differentteams.
I was an executive there forbasically the whole time and I
got to a point where I realizedI'd spent almost a decade of my
life helping Ev facilitate theexchange of stories and ideas in
(02:03):
the world and, as proud as I amof what Twitter and Medium
became, that was really Ev'smission, that was his vision and
, like I said, I'm generally nota good employee because I like
to pursue my own shit.
I like to pursue what I do.
Speaker 4 (02:16):
That's what you said at the very beginning, yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And at the time a few things were really popping for
me.
So one I had really gotten intomeditation.
And working in Silicon Valley,high stress, high pressure I
really learned to kind of liketake a breath, slow down, tune,
tune into what's happeninginternally with me, learn to
meditate and I got some calm,some peace, some happiness.
I was performing better.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
Were you always a meditation guy, or is it
something that now?
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Never, in fact, because um, at medium Ev started
to get a little into meditation.
We brought in this guy, willKabat-Zinn and Jon Kabat-Zinn
they're like celebrities in themindfulness space.
I didn't know that at the timebut they came in to embarrass
this guy that we're paying to behere.
But, like, this ain't for meand I grew up in Texas, like you
know, evangelical Bible, beltlike, and, and at this point
(03:11):
religion was really kind of aput off for me and, to my
discredit, I didn't think Ithought about meditation as like
an Eastern religion thing and Ihad just moved to California.
So I'm going to be open-minded,experienced it all.
But I realized after a couple ofsessions like man, I'd leave
these little meditations justreally feeling good and I
started to, you know, reallylean into it a little bit and
I'm all in or all out on mostthings.
(03:32):
So I just went all in onmeditation.
I'm going to like retreats, I'mgoing to like silent weeks and
different things, and you know.
And then my wife, I was all inand my family started like, I
started teaching my wife and mykids and they started learning
and seeing more grounded.
Our family was happier.
And so I knew meditation wasmindfulness, and I knew
(03:52):
mindfulness was going to be athing, and so I was like I'm
really excited about that.
I knew I want to do anothertech startup because that's just
what I do, that's what you do,that's what I know and that's
the networks that I built.
And I'm a huge sports junkie.
I'm a I'm an nba hoops headthrough and through, rocking my,
my husa rockets.
Uh right, now you can see, I got, I got a cabinet nba jams
(04:13):
runner right here.
I got the papa shot in the backlike I'm a hardcore husa rock
now.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
Were you at texas when kevin durant was there?
That's the first thing thatpopped in my head.
It was after you.
He was a little after me I was,I guess you would be a little
after yeah, yeah I was there,vince williams was a quarterback
.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I see ricky williams break the rushing record while I
was there in the late 90s, so alittle bit earlier, uh, there
than him.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
But before you continue, I want to ask these
two guys meditation have youguys have you?
Are you guys in the meditationat all?
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Um, I'm like, I'm going to kind of say yes and no,
Like I have a tendency to like,do some shit and then move to
the next shit.
You know so.
So, while you know, I've I'vebeen in that space, but then
I'll just go to the next object.
Oh cool, I did that.
I'm going to go to the nextthing.
But I mean, when I was in thatspace, it definitely helps.
(05:05):
And I've been thinking latelyabout to try to get back into
that space.
And you know, dailyaffirmations and all that it
makes you, makes you feel, itdoes make you feel good and open
pause when to start your daylike that and I haven't done
that in a while and I'm feelingkind of cloudy lately.
That, and I haven't done thatin a while and I'm feeling kind
(05:27):
of cloudy lately.
So, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna,I'm gonna try to get back into
it, Cause I, you know it, itworked, it works for me.
I should say I don't know ifeverybody, but when I was doing
it, it works for me.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Um, for me I'm not.
It's not really like ameditation thing, Um, more like
I need to get back into theprayer thing and I think there's
like this congruent spacebetween meditation, prayer, yoga
and just kind of sitting insilence and absorbing the
atmosphere and environment.
Now that you know, my son isgetting on the bus in the
(05:57):
mornings.
He's getting up at 5.30 am withme, so from 5.30 to like like 6
30 is basically getting themready, and then I just go
straight to the gym and thentypically I would probably go
and pray.
But I've just kind of, you know, I got my studio set up and you
get busy in life.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Yeah, that's where I'm at.
I wish I did more of it, but Ifeel like I'm constantly on the
run and I think I think you'reright.
I think it would the cloudinessor just the anxiety sometimes.
I don don't know.
Maybe, maybe you need to gethelp us get all into this again.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, look.
I'll be honest, like my own.
You know, daily meditationpractice isn't on point right
now.
I'm not sitting every day andmeditating.
But.
But now I'll say, like when I,when I started my next company
for it was, it became amindfulness company for athletes
I'll tell you about it in asecond.
But but this was right whenthere was actually, you know,
studies and real sciencehappening around the benefits of
(06:50):
mindfulness.
It is now well documented.
You can't argue against thebenefit of it, like the medical
field knows that, the sciencefield knows it.
It was hard, you know, evenfive or ten years ago, to
explain it.
Because you know if you eatbetter, you lose weight.
You know if you run on thetrack you'll get better, better
cardio.
You know if you lift weights,you'll get stronger.
But like now, this, this guruis telling you like do nothing
for 30 minutes and that shouldmake you better.
(07:12):
But it's like hard to quantify.
Like it was.
It was a little bit likeselling snake oil back then.
But I was at one of these.
I was actually speaking at thismindfulness conference in San
Francisco and one of the otherspeakers was this guy named
George Mumford, and GeorgeMumford has a book out there.
He was Phil Jackson's guru.
So you know, Phil Jackson'soften thought of like kind of
the Zen Buddha, Zen master.
Well, this guy taught PhilJackson what he knew.
(07:33):
And so George Mumford wasroommates with Dr J.
They both were going to try togo to play ball but George blew
out his knee, ended up in prison, came out, was really on this
like Zen Buddhism kick andreally realized in prison he was
helping prisoners get rightinside their head and he really
kind of realized like that wassomething really special with
(07:55):
that.
So he ended up working withsome basketball players, hooked
up with Phil Jackson, and thisguy was a mental skills coach
for Jordan Kobe Shaq.
I mean he followed Phil up fromChicago to LA, even to New York
in his last stop, and so thisguy was speaking at this
conference about how he wasusing mindfulness to help these
(08:16):
guys perform.
And back in the 90s no one wastalking about meditation.
No one was even talking aboutyoga.
This was definitely someEastern art, mystical shit.
But he knew he was ontosomething.
And I'll tell you what Jordanknew he was onto something.
Kobe knew he was onto something.
At that level, you know, thereal, true performers will find
little differentiator to elevatethemselves.
(08:37):
And for Jordan and Kobe, it waspracticing their mental game.
They were meditating, they werevisualizing.
Practicing their mental game,they were meditating, they were
visualizing, they wereproactively working on building
their confidence, while theirpeers were just working on their
handles or working on the jumpshot or working in the weight
room, and so that was kind oftheir secret sauce.
And so, the irony there is,they didn't talk about it
because they didn't want theircompetitors to have it.
(08:58):
Well, fast forward, 20 somethingyears later, george is in his
70s, he's retired, he's nowworked with all and he worked
with all my NBA heroes you knowlike.
And once his story becamepublic and once Jordan and Kobe
got out the league, they wouldtalk about this guy.
I mean, jordan said GeorgeMumford saved his life, you know
, and said that he wouldn't doanything without him.
So this guy had incredible crab.
(09:19):
He's getting older and when Imet him at this conference, he
just he seemed a little sad thatwhat he knew wasn't bigger,
like more people didn't knowabout it.
And he said back then he washolding onto it because it was a
competitive advantage he wasselling.
But now he just wanted theworld to know you can work on
you know what's between yourears, like you work on your body
and your skills and everythingelse that can really help you.
And that had this moment ofrealization like shit, that's
(09:42):
what technology is great at.
Technology is great at scalingthings globally really fast.
And so I said your wisdom, mytech chops, like I think we
could bring this to people.
And so I started a companycalled Lucid.
We built some curriculum on aphone.
It was like kind of like aHeadspace or Calm type app.
It was really geared atmindfulness for performance,
(10:05):
because while this was happening, headspace was starting to get
a little traction, calm wasstarting to get traction.
It was really about like take abreak from your day, take a
breath, calm down, de-stress andlike that's all great, but in
an NBA court or in a SiliconValley boardroom, you need to
perform.
When you're on a mic, you needto perform.
You know when you're on a mic,to perform, and so there was
(10:26):
something really magical to meabout like utilizing these same
skill sets to be better atsomething, and so I raised money
on this idea to like usemindfulness to help athletes get
better musicians perform betterboard members, you know, be
more focused and confident inthe boardroom and so created a
whole company around it andraised some money, started
working with his connections andsome of the other mental skills
(10:50):
coaches that we brought instarted rocking with some young
kids.
Our idea was like let's figureout who's kind of next up coming
into the league, because theolder guys are already getting
inundated with sponsorship dealsand they're hard to get a hold
of, and George Mumford's, youknow the Kobe's and Jordan's
were already out the league, andso I had this brought in this
one mental skills coach who hadworked with Aaron Gordon since
(11:14):
he was 12 years old, when he wasin junior high.
He was working with Ben Simmonsin Australia.
He worked with Carl AnthonyTowns before he came to the
league, so this guy was alreadyon it and he was teaching these
guys.
He said he had a crew of aboutfour or five guys that he just
knew back in 2017 or 18, likethese guys are going to be
something Now like fast forward.
Jalen Brown finals.
(11:35):
Mvp Aaron Gordon found his homein Denver and then won a
championship.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Cats dominated and got robbed in a dunk contest.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yo, I was there that night.
Oh, you were there.
I was there.
I couldn't believe it.
I was like dude.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
He's doing shit I've never seen done.
This dude is catching the shitoff the fanatic.
He threw it under his legs.
How is this?
How is this not 20s, let alone10s?
I'm still mad about that andthat's why he don't do the dunk
contest anymore.
He I'm still mad about that andthat's why he don't do the dunk
passes anymore.
He's like you're going to robme again.
I mean, peace is at Levine, butAaron got robbed twice.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Look, taking nothing away from Levine.
Levine's an incredible leaper,but I was in the hotel room with
AG before the dunk contest.
We were meditating.
We were getting our head rightrolling in the arena with him
sitting in the stands.
I watch, just like everyoneelse did, and I'll tell you that
one iconic dunk like under bothof his legs over there when it
happened it happened so quickpeople were like what just
(12:29):
happened.
And then when they showed thereplay on the jumbotron, people
went apeshit.
I mean that was like.
You know I remember vincecarter, jordan.
You know spud web.
I remember some like iconicdunkers back in the day, but
that show that ag and and Levineput on, I mean we haven't seen
anything like it since.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
No, we haven't.
No, we haven't.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
And I'll tell you don't give up on it, Mickey.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
I still rock with AG.
I just saw him a couple weeksago, unfortunately, at his
brother's reception for hisfuneral.
His brother passed away.
I had a driving accidentrecently, but I was there.
I'll tell you anytime I hangout with AG.
People are still coming up tohim being like you were robbed
man.
You were robbed.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Just like this guy he was he absolutely was.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
He absolutely was.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Wow.
So what then ultimatelyhappened with Lucid?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah.
So Lucid man.
It was an unbelievable.
Ran Lucid for about three years, raised a couple rounds of
money, got to hire some of mybest friends, got to work with
AGs and dinners with JalenBrowns, and for me that's like
someone who grew up as a hoophead.
I was living my dream.
But I'll tell you, I was maybe alittle too overconfident, a
(13:41):
little overambitious.
I thought, after Twitter andMedium, you just build something
cool and you got like millionsof users.
Well, lucid was inherently adifferent type of business.
It was a different type ofcompany Really.
It was a content productionbusiness and we were like we had
to build out a little studioand we were building these
meditations, we were makingmindfulness music.
We had to crank it out all thetime and keep the app updated.
I thought it was a technologycompany.
It was really a content andselling that content was a lot
(14:06):
harder than I imagined.
I experienced the benefits ofmindfulness in my own life and
after seeing Jordan and Kobe andthese guys doing the same thing
, I thought it was going to bean easy sell.
But what I found out was, likeI said earlier, these athletes
already know they got to eatright, they got to sleep right.
They got to get in the gym.
They got to get in the gym.
They got to get on the track.
They got to work on theirskills.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
They got to do media classes.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
They got all these things.
They already can't do all thatin a day, and now we're telling
them now you got to sit for 30minutes and close your eyes and
breathe.
By the way, it's hard toquantify the results of that.
All the others are reallyeasily quantifiable.
It was a really hard sell, butwhat I learned was the potential
market for that content wasn'tas big as I thought, because
(14:46):
really at each level, at theyouth level, there's a slim tier
, athletes who are really goingto go play in high school.
At high school, even a slimmertier of athletes are going to go
play in college.
At college, a very thin tier ofathletes are going to go pro,
and those thin tiers are reallythe, the communities that are
willing to try the things thatno one else is.
(15:07):
They want that competitiveadvantage.
They're willing to pay.
Those are the ones you knowpaying for dietitians and paying
for private coaches and allthese sorts of things.
And so it was a hard nut tocrack from a business
perspective.
You know, I think toward theend we really got some traction.
We started rocking with BrandonMarshall the inside NFL you
know probably a Hall of Famerreceiver at some point, and he
(15:27):
really had a heart forentertainment.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
I think he's right on that fine line.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
I mean, he's still got the records, he's still got
the most reception I don't know,yeah but anyway, brandon's a
homie, but, but he really, youknow there's a lot of you know
inner city sports that you knowhave little budgets and we can
start to teach us the kids evenyounger than we thought, because
we you kind of went the prolevel to really validate and
legitimize the company but weended up selling the product to.
(15:56):
You know, some colleges wouldbuy, some high schools would buy
, but they'd buy, you know, evenif we had every single
collegiate athlete in the US onthe program, that's 45,000
people.
From a tech perspective, that'snot a lot more than that.
You know there's less than 5,000professional athletes in the US
, and so we ended up selling to,like you know, soccer camps and
(16:18):
schools, and, like we werealways successful because we
could bring these guys in likeGeorge Mumford and they just all
people.
They inspire people.
It's easy to sell, but it wasalso kind of a boots on the
ground sales business.
It wasn't a tech business thatcould scale overnight like I was
used to, and so, long storyshort, I was really kind of
burnt out creating content everyday, you know, really trying to
just make ends meet for thecompany.
(16:39):
And so in 2018, we just decidedlike let's just disband the
company, but let's just let theapp run.
You know, at that point we hadthousands of people that were
paying monthly subscribers andso it.
You know, that thing was makingmoney and just until I think
last year, basically, but westopped working on it.
(16:59):
Um, my VP of design ended upgoing to Facebook and, uh, got
there about a month later.
It was like Sturman, you got tocome check out Facebook and I
was like hold on, hold on, likeI'm a startup guy.
Yeah, that's going back to theevil empire right there.
Totally.
And I saw, you know, afterTwitter got to a certain size it
was, like you know, politicsand bureaucracy start to creep
in by nature the size of theorganization.
So but I did go to talk.
(17:20):
I went to talk to Facebook andthey kind of sold me to jump in
and help them with kind of theirzero to one innovation muscle
internally.
You know they had caught windthat the FTC was going to come
down and impose some mandates onthem.
It was going to be harder andharder for Facebook to acquire
companies.
Now.
Facebook acquired Instagram atthe right time, acquired Oculus
(17:40):
at the right time.
WhatsApp the biggestcommunication platform in the
world at the right time, and so,like, the acquisition muscle at
Facebook was crazy.
But it's going to be harder andharder to do that, and so the
in-house innovation muscle was alittle bit weaker and so I came
in to kind of work on somedifferent models to really
attract entrepreneurial people,to challenge how big companies
(18:01):
can work and scale and bringsome new ideas to the table and
real talk.
I thought I'd be at Facebookfor a year.
I thought I'd get paid for ayear, learn about big companies
and bounce and start somethingelse.
Well, I just crossed six and ahalf years at the company, still
working on interesting stuff.
It's a crazy place.
I don't know 70,000 employeesit's wild, but I'm learning a
bunch.
I'm getting to work with reallycreative, smart people.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Do you work right there at the Facebook offices?
Do you go in or no?
Not anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
No, Not anymore For pre-COVID.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
I was driving 90 minutes one.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Well, I loved being at the office.
Speaker 4 (18:37):
I loved working with Greg he did meditation for those
90 minutes, so he's good.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Well, I'll tell you what.
That was a lot of time to be ina car, but as an introvert,
between the craziness at workand the craziness at home, that
was my 90 minutes where I waslistening to my music, my
podcast, and so I kind of missit a little bit, but I want to
go back to one thing you saidwhich I thought was really
interesting.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
I want to put an exclamation mark on that is you
created something with Lucidthat was content creation,
whereas where you had successwith Twitter and then Facebook
and we're going to get into theBars app was really creating a
platform for others to createall the content, which seems
like your key to success andwhere you want it to be A
(19:21):
hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And I think the truth of the matter is I realized
that pretty late in the Lucidgame and I was just so excited
about what we were doing andevery week we were getting a new
pro athlete or a team thatwanted to work with us, and it
was kind of just blinding me toreally step back and think about
how is this business actuallygoing to work?
Because the truth of the matteris the thing that really gets
me going and inspires me isempowering other people to share
(19:43):
what's special about them withthe world.
And we did that at Twitter, wedid that at media and we
definitely did that at bars.
And I think that's the thingI'm good at and, for better or
worse, that's what I like to do.
And so late in the game at Lucid, we thought, like you know,
could this be a platform for,you know, maybe the, the up and
coming mindfulness coaches, theexecutive coaches?
(20:03):
You know that was kind of likean industry that was starting to
bubble up a little bit, but themore I thought about it, the
more I thought, you know, we didsomething really special with
these athletes.
We planted a lot of seeds.
We'll see.
We'll see how they'll bloomlater, but truth of the matter
is after three years I was justburnt trying to run a business
that wasn't taking off like Ithought, and so I decided to
hang it up.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, Wow, I respect it.
Now here.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
I thought we were going to talk about music the
whole time and we haven't evengot to music.
But I guess now I'm starting torealize where the Bars app came
from.
It's all like you're connectingthe dots here.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Well, I'll connect them literally.
I'll try to do it quick.
I know I'm being long-windedhere, but music has always been
a big part of my life.
My parents put me on pianolessons when I was little.
I started playing guitar when Iwas little.
It's been my main instrument.
I've always likedsinger-songwriters.
I always liked music as a wayto move people and tell stories
(21:05):
and um.
So I was probably in.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
I think I was in sixth grade when my friend gave
me a bootleg cassette tape ofeasy e and I was like I never
heard.
I mean well, the only album.
Easy does it, the easy does it,easy does it.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
And I heard it and I was like my parents would not
approve of this and I'm fuckingrocking with this man.
It just the beats the message.
And you know I rocking withthis man, it just the beats the
message.
And you know, I didn't realizethis at the time.
But the thing that reallyfascinated me was like he was
rapping about shit that washappening in Compton.
It was such a different life.
I grew up basically on a golfcourse in a suburb of Houston,
(21:30):
you know.
So like this was not, you know,I was not getting shot at, I
was not having these experiences.
That EZ was in, in, in, uh, in,la, but it just was like I
could imagine, I could see it, Icould hear it and it was like,
you know, his, his way tocommunicate what was happening
in his life through cleverpunchlines and bars and dope
beats, like I just was reallyfascinated by it.
So after that I was like buying, you know, blank tapes at my
little boom box with the recordbutton and I was jamming 97.9
(21:52):
the box, shout out 97.9 the boxin houston, like I think they're
still going.
I'd be listening for the MadHatter in the morning, yes, sir,
and I'd be recording my littlemixtapes, but my whole life I
always played music.
In college I was playing guitarwith some little acoustic
singer-songwriter bands, bands,and you know, hip-hop was always
(22:13):
kind of my, my, my passion, myhobby.
I didn't know if I could ever,you know, actually make anything
.
It's it's somewhat recently,really, since covid, that I
thought, like I can fuck aroundwith the drum machine and npc,
like this ain't rocket science,I can learn some.
I started to learn to produce alittle bit, but after about two
years at facebook, we hadcreated a, a program called npe
(22:37):
New Product Experimentation andI was in charge of running
design and products for it for awhile.
So we were bringing inentrepreneurs from outside of
Facebook to come inside.
We had money, we had engineers,we had designers.
We could help them pursuespecific niche product ideas for
certain communities, realizingthat nothing scales global
overnight Usually you find apocket of people that really
(22:58):
love your shit so much theycan't stop talking about it.
And so, you know, could we findthose pockets of people and
really grow somethingorganically from the inside a
company like Facebook?
And so once we started rockingwith that, you know I was
thinking about, like what kindof communities, you know, could
we support here and music for me, I was like I have the
opportunity to work on music andtech like 100%.
(23:19):
I'm definitely doing that, andat the time there was just a lot
of criticism from really theblack community around decisions
Facebook had made and there wassome ill will and some lost
trust in those communities and Ithought, and also just a few
years prior to this, hip hop hadsurpassed rock as the most
popular genre, I think, in theworld or in the US or something
(23:41):
so like sort of like connectingsome trends together.
And I was like you know whatHip hop has always been really
powerful for me?
Music moves minds.
Facebook has the scale toreally put this in the world in
a way and build a platform forwho are the up-and-comers that
have something to say and theydon't know how to get it to the
(24:01):
world.
And so we dorked around with acouple of different ideas and
the Bars app was the end result.
You're given a platform fordope lyricists and eventually
producers would put their stuffon a product that they could get
more ears, get more eyes andhopefully move minds and change
(24:22):
culture and all the things thathip hop has done for me.
I thought could we scale itthrough this product?
It was hard because Facebook, atthe time was not a trusted
brand.
Facebook had been in the newsall the time for bad decisions
or data breaches or privacyinvasions or whatever it was.
And so actually talking to acommunity that already felt
(24:43):
burned by this company, and so Irealized from the get-go this
was a high risk, high rewardsituation, because one I'm
trying to serve a community thatin many ways, I'm not a part of
.
I mean, you can see me, I lovehip hop.
I don't know, you know it'shard for me to relate to, to
what inner city black kids aredealing with, that they're
loving this music, and so andFacebook was already under so
(25:05):
much scrutiny, like you know,how would how would they look at
this product being founded by awhite dude who likes hip hop
coming out of Facebook, likethere were, like this is it
could be corny was written allover it, you know.
But I thought, look, I don't,I'm okay, embarrassing myself,
I'm okay Failing, I'll learn alot.
I really think there'ssomething special here.
And so there is a lot ofstructure, infrastructure inside
(25:27):
of Facebook.
Now meta, we have, like theinclusive product council.
We have the black act community, like there was.
There was a lot of checks andbalances and and uh, people that
could kind of check me for myown, you know biases, both known
and unknown, and I'll tell yousome early versions of the
product.
We just use some language, likeeven in the app that was, like
you know, the the, the productcouncil was like you can't say
(25:48):
that.
You know, like that's, thatyou're using like lingo and
slang, that, like you know, if,if we use it, it's cool, but
when you use it it's going to beinterpreted a little bit
differently.
And they acknowledged, like Ididn't have any bad intentions
but, like you know, I wasserving a community I wasn't
really part of, which is usuallya disaster, you know, recipe
for disaster.
But I also did really reallybelieve in the power of this
community and I think thatpeople internally saw that and
(26:11):
so let me run with this thing.
And you know we ran it for agood couple of years.
Working with Mickey was one ofthe highlights of the whole deal
, but you know we also rockedwith, you know, jadakiss and
Rhapsody and Toby and Weequayshout out, h-town rapper coming
up.
Like you know, there were somepeople that got on that app that
kind of legitimized it.
Mickey was a huge, huge helpand, just like you know, once he
(26:34):
kind of signed on and we didthe the the bars at Mickey fact
challenge, uh, with him I thinka lot of people in the industry
that follow Mickey and a lot ofthe hip hop you know, die hard.
You're like okay, like we heardabout this thing but like we
kind of thought it was cheesy orcorny, but like once they
opened it they realized likethere was some real spitters on
there.
There was some real kids that,like, had an art form and had
(26:55):
something to say and now had anaudience to say it to.
And so, you know, ran itProbably the most fun I've ever
had in my my career.
Getting to, like, make beatsfor rappers and like, build a
product to make hip hop, youknow, more impactful, was
amazing.
But the truth of the matter is,at the end of the day, you know
, for a product to matter atmeta scale, you know it's
(27:17):
hundreds of millions of peopleat least I don't know if there's
a hundred million wannaberappers in the world, you know
and like.
And that said, like, wedefinitely could have branched
out to other genres.
We could have brought some, youknow, the producer community in
, like.
I think there's still ways thatthat product could have scaled
and continue to make adifference.
But beginning of last year,meta went through a tough round
(27:41):
of layoffs and really had toruthlessly focus on what was
going to be effective andefficient for the company to
invest in, to move the business.
And unfortunately, that wholenew product experimentation Bars
was one of 60 apps that welaunched out of that group and
the whole org just got wounddown.
So nothing survived from that.
Well, no products did but I'lltell you one of the hidden
(28:03):
agendas of starting that team atMeta we were a hundred strong
when we closed it but one of thehidden agendas was, when you
work for a big company like Metalike Facebook, like Twitter,
like Google, like Apple there'sso much process, bureaucracy,
red tape it's really hard to getstuff done, and I came from a
startup background where it'sjust me and a couple of homies
(28:23):
in my garage making shit happenevery day, and so I was
convinced that there was betterways to get work done.
So what we did in that org, Ithink, really helped inform the
larger company in different waysto build products and serve
communities.
And I'll tell you, I still getthanks and appreciation and
kudos inside of the company forstepping into a high risk, high
(28:46):
reward situation serving acommunity I wasn't really a part
of and building some real goodwill and trust and content and a
product, and so I think thatspirit is still very much alive
in the company.
Unfortunately, the product isnot, but you know that's okay.
Like you know, something justhave like a natural life cycle.
And, like you know, I still getand Mickey's probably not
(29:07):
surprised, but I still getpeople all the time Like some of
these guys are in thatcommunity, like yo, we got to
get the bars up going.
How can we, how can I restartthis and, like you know, as as a
passion project, I think it wasreally impactful.
I think if it was a startup Iwas running, I think I could
have really continued to investin and pivot and try different
things, bring in new investors,bring in new talent.
But when this decision camedown to to to ax the org, you
(29:29):
know, so did we ax the productand, you know, nothing but
gratitude and a full heartlooking back.
And it introduced me to youguys and to Mickey and I dropped
an album last week mostlyfeaturing guys from the bars
community, you know, and so,like that is an absolute dream
come true for me.
I never thought I'd get to, youknow, release music that people
are rapping on, and so for meit was an unbelievable, huge win
(29:52):
.
I'm really, really proud ofwhat we did in that product.
And you know, sad, sad is gone,but you know, everything's got
his life cycle well, let's tellthe world about that album.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
It's beats for friends beats for friends.
Hey, I listened to it today.
Hey, what do you think?
I liked it.
Okay, I'll give you my favoritetrack.
Okay, and and it's funny thatthis whole conversation because
this is what I was thinkingabout back when I was listening
to this was go far and for somereason, I put it on in the car
and it was like the most calmingbeat and I felt like I was in
(30:24):
meditation all the way hometoday.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I love it.
Speaker 4 (30:27):
I love it I'll tell you full circle, mickey full
circle, you know you know, Ididn't get.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
I didn't get a phone call for that album, man, I
don't know.
You know, when I heard it,heard it when he sent me the
link, I was like, oh, you putout an instrumental album
Because you know me.
I'm like there's a lot ofrecords on there, Jeff.
I'm like, OK, I start listening.
I'm hearing people.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I didn't know about it at all.
Y'all got to get to it, you gotto get to it.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
I start.
I'm like wait, I didn't get acall.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Yeah, you ain't get to.
No bars, no bars.
It's crazy, look ain't noshortcuts.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
In this game I got to start from the bottom and work
my way up to the Mickey Factsand the Jeff Sledges in the game
.
I got to earn that feature.
Homie, I got to earn thatfeature no bars is wild.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
You cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Good you cleaned that up.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Good man it was, you know, like it was really during
covid I really started to thinkabout like I got all this time
on my hands, I'm at home.
I really started, you know,fucking around with some
production, learning how to usethe software, started buying
little drum machines and grooveboxes and and really just
started making beats.
I liked and you know I stilllisten to a wide variety of
music and for me, somethingabout singer, songwriter music,
(31:39):
hip hop, even some like ambientstuff, like anything that moves
me, moves me.
I don't know why, but it does.
And so when I started really Istarted this project late last
year I was looking mygrandfather shout out Herman
Sturman, believe it or not.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Yeah, rest in peace.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
But he was.
He was a pianist and he madegypsy music, which was a thing
like back in Lithuania he was.
He grew up in New York.
He was a gypsy music pianistand I still have some his little
45 vinyls and it sounds likewhat you think it sounds like.
It's like piano music, soundlike you hear at a gypsy camp or
something.
(32:37):
No-transcript, maybe it was justtime for me, but I really
stopped giving a fuck whatpeople thought about me, you
know, and like it's one of thebiggest blessings of getting
older and I thought, you know,like I, I always had this
creative pursuits and I had somevalidation that, like my
technology, creative pursuitswere validated because I was
(32:58):
getting jobs, I was getting paid, I was getting, you know,
noticed.
But my music was just kind offor me and I think I just had
this fear of like putting it outthere I'd get clowned, no one
would like it, no one would care.
But just a couple of years agoI was like I don't really care
anymore.
I'm going to make music that Ilike.
I make music that moves me.
My kids will be able to pointto a Spotify link not gonna be a
vinyl anymore, although Ishould get it pressed to vinyl
(33:18):
now.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
You should totally do that.
I should get it pressed tovinyl.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
But it'll be just a moment in time, a snapshot of
what I was into and the people Iwas rocking with.
That I could like kind of leavebehind.
And so I thought you know what,like I know I've got a career
I'm happy with.
(33:42):
I got lots of hobbies.
You know music for me is apassion project.
I put it out there really as ajust kind of a moment in time to
to you know, show and share thekind of music that that moved
me.
And I got to rock with some ofmy homies.
I met through bars and got tofeature them and pay them which
was really amazing to supporttheir dope art from dope people,
and so all those songs move mein some way.
(34:04):
Even like when I was justscouting samples or like kind of
bass stuff off or playing myguitar or playing the keys, if
something a little chordprogression or a melody, just
made me feel something, I waslike that's it.
It.
And so if you listen to it now,like I got some rappers on
there but like go far is not,it's not a hip-hop track, it's
like not at all, yeah, it's got,actually actually got some like
praise and worship, like, uh,like a little christian thing on
(34:28):
there.
Speaker 4 (34:28):
You know, it's not a weird stamp I needed.
I needed something to calm medown, to get me in the right,
the right place, and and that itdid that.
It did it for me.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Well, man, I appreciate that.
Like I said, if one otherperson liked it, that's icing on
the cake.
And since I put it out justlast week, I've just been I'm
not trying to run up mylisteners, not trying to sell
any merch or anything, but justgetting hit up from friends and
family and people just sayingthey rocked it, they felt me,
that moved them, they heardsomething like it has just been
an absolute pleasure, and so I'malready starting to gear up for
(35:00):
, like man, I got to do thisagain and back to the rick rubin
vibes.
You know rick rubin talks about,like the real work is making
art and sharing art.
And going back to making art,and you know, you never know
what's going to pop off andwhat's not, and so like kind of
got out of my head and said youknow, know what, fuck it, I
don't care what people think.
I'm going to make music I likeand put it out there and if it
resonates with people, cool,I'll rock with them.
If it doesn't, cool too.
(35:20):
Like we all like differentstuff.
Art is subjective, you know,and so.
But there is something for methat was a big hurdle of you
know that my friends and familyand kids like Last question
before we close this thing out,Hit me here we go, here we go.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Why?
Why are you?
Why are you didn't give me thebars up, man?
Why you just didn't give it?
Speaker 4 (35:49):
to me.
We talked a lot about this, alot about this.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
You should have just handed it over to me.
Man.
Yeah, Slipped out the back door.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
this you should have just handed it over to me.
Yeah, slip out the back door.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Nick, there's nothing would have made me happier to
do that and, I kid you not, wehad.
I went to bat hardcoreinternally for that.
Unfortunately, intellectualproperty laws and meta and
Facebook all got in the way andit.
You know, I probably shouldn'tget into it, obviously for
obvious reasons, but I'll tellyou like.
(36:17):
You tried, you tried, I triedbut not being able to give that
community what they were askingfor when we had what they were
asking for, that was a real hardmoment for me.
I still feel sad about it.
But I also feel, like you know,like people will continue to
find ways for their art to beheard.
And, like you know, maybethere'll be another similar
thing come up.
You know, maybe I'll fuckaround with engineers at some
(36:38):
point and then spend some of onweekend.
I don't know.
Like you know, everything's,everything's on the table, but,
man, I wish, I wish you couldhave had a Mick.
I tried to make that happen,but I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
I mean, the gesture in itself was unbelievable and
I'm appreciative of that, youknow, because that community,
you know the times that I didpop in and get a chance to see
everybody working.
I'm not sure if the otherambassadors came in and kind of
(37:10):
saw, but I was in there, youknow, and I got a chance to vibe
with a lot of people and a lotof them transitioned over the
pendulum and you know we createdthat community for them and
we've had retreats where theygot a chance to meet in person
and I think that is the kind ofthing that a lot of people yearn
for.
They needed that space and weprovided it for them.
You know we would have done it,you know we would have kept
that, that space going and wavethat flag.
But obviously, you know thebureaucracies and legal jargon
(37:34):
kept the culture fromprogressing.
Speaker 4 (37:37):
Mickey, this is a guy you need to get at the next
graduation.
Who Sturman?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
Yeah, I've invited Sturman to both graduations.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
We need to get you out there.
He has It'll blow you away whatMickey's doing, because it is
kind of in some ways connectedto what you were doing and it's
very impressive what he's done.
Well, it's it's, it's it's,it's very impressive what he's
done.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Well, I know that and I've seen the pictures from the
graduation.
It just it warmed my heart somuch and I know a lot of those
guys in the bars community endup in Pendulum Inc.
They they talk about bars andPendulum Inc really changing
their lives, and not justbecause more, more of their art
is being heard, but it was realtherapy and healing for some of
those guys going through somereal rough times and be able to
connect with other people withsimilar struggles, sharing their
art in similar ways.
(38:19):
Like.
I'm really proud of what we didand I couldn't be more stoked
about you know mickey is holdingthat torch and pendulum inc is
moving forward with this.
So, so, super stoked.
But before we bounce, before wegot on this, call jeff jeffery,
a little teaser about likesomething we had in common.
And now I'm curious well, well,curious.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Well, now we've done this interview.
I was actually shadowing you inyour life, talking it because
you're from Houston area.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Yes, sir, and.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
I A&R'd all the UGK projects.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
No shit really.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
No shit.
And then you went to the Bayand I A&R'd E40 and Too Short.
Then I heard your favoritegroup of all time Tribe Called
Quest.
Yes, sir, I A&R'd.
I started with MidnightMarauders.
I did a promotion on the wardon Low End 3.
I started with.
A&r'd and I did MidnightMarauders on.
(39:18):
Except the last album because Iwas on Epic.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Wow, I did not know that.
Jeff, here I'm talking withMick and Tom.
I want to talk to you, man.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
They were babbling, they were babbling, I was
letting them babble.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
That was Tom.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
I'm the babbling guy, I admit it.
Speaker 3 (39:37):
And then Jeff signed me, so like you got to yeah, and
I signed Mickey too, so likethis whole synergy is there.
And last but not least, youknow, Q-Tip will be at the
graduation in New York City for.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Oh, he's coming.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Yeah, yeah, we locked him Big announcement
announcement I locked him in.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I locked him in in april last year.
Wow, the tip to come outnowadays.
You know, that's just a bigthing.
Speaker 4 (40:00):
I'm coming out you just you just reeled him in.
If you have, you have me, I'mcoming out, make for sure of
course we, yeah, we have somefun.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Yeah, well, jeff, we got a lot to talk about man I
always like I feel like h towndoesn't.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
You know.
It never shows up as a list oflist of, like influential
hip-hop cities.
But you look at ugk, you lookat ghetto boys, you look at dj
screw.
I mean, you got you know mikejones, you know I mean, you got
people at ugk that came out ofthere.
That really had a pretty bigimpact on the, on the path that
hip-hop went and and uh, youknow.
So I'm always, always repping,repping h town and and they're
(40:33):
still producing the artist therethere I'm excited about.
But but, jeff man, I'd love tograb a meal with you sometime
and talk makes you work with allmy idols, all my idols.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Get into it.
Tell you some tribe stories.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
Oh my gosh, that's crazy, that is crazy.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
All right, who knew who knew?
All right, sturman, you got totell everybody where can they
find your music.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
I am at Sturman everywhere.
S-t-i-r-a-m Sturman.
I'm on Twitter, instagram,facebook, spotify.
Look me up, jam my music If youlike it.
Send me a note, man.
I really appreciate anyone rockwith me If you don't.
That's cool too.
Also, quick shout out to mydaughter.
I started making music.
(41:18):
My daughter's name is GreenleeG-R-E-E-N-L-E-Y.
She put out her first single acouple months ago.
She is 18.
I just dropped her off at CUBoulder last week Freshman there
and so she is starting a wholenew chapter of life.
But she's been DJing, creatingsome house music which she's
teaching me a little bit abouthouse music now.
Some house music which she'steaching me a little bit about
house music.
Now she's got way morelisteners than I do on Spotify.
(41:38):
I'm like my music probablyain't going to be my retirement
ticket, but her music might.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
I'm going to blow her up every chance I get House
music is, I don't want to saycoming back, because it never
left, it just went backunderground.
It's starting to pop its headup in different places.
It's going to have another run.
It's going to have another runvery soon.
(42:03):
My theory is, whenever tragicthings happen in this country,
so like in the 20s right withProhibition and all that shit
and people were, you know, andthe crash of World War 29.
Out of that came ragtime.
People wanted to dance, right.
Then in the 40s, world War IICrazy, you know, people dying.
(42:27):
Out of that came rock and roll,early rock and roll, you know,
bo Diddley and that type of shit.
Then in the 60s, vietnam WarStrife.
Out of that came that seconditeration of rock and roll.
Right, people wanted to kind ofbe free and party and have a
good time.
Then in the 70s, you know, gascrash, you know gas prices going
(42:50):
crazy, da-da-da.
Out of that came disco.
So whenever there's really darktimes now I'm talking about
what we just talked about, whichis COVID and that type of thing
, trump and all that type ofstuff Out of that is coming
tempo.
Again, people want to feel good.
(43:11):
That's why your daughter's onto something, because that tempo
and that feeling and that vibethat's coming back like the slow
, it's not, it's not, it's nothappening.
So that's my theory.
I just gave away my theory.
I like that this tempo starts tokick in.
I mean, it's not a theory, it'sthe truth.
It's what happens over time,you know so.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
Oh, we've gotten into a lot tonight.
This has been.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
This has been fun.
Yeah, yeah, this has been fun.
Thank you, sir.
I'm so glad we got to reconnect.
I'm I'm thrilled when I just dmsomebody and actually get back
to me.
I owe that to mickey andjeffrey, so, um, it's been great
.
Thank you.
I've learned a ton just sittinghere and listening to you for
the past hour.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I appreciate it.
Thanks for letting me ramble,jeff that was dope it was, it
was really man, I just feelhonored to be connected to you
guys and, like I'll be followingy'all's story, always following
the podcast.
You know we didn't even talkabout AI.
I had this haws Like I want tohear what these guys think about
AI-created art.
That's a whole nother.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Maybe we'll check, you know queue that I'd love to
hear y'all's take on that, butman.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
I'll be rapping against AI on Friday.
I'll be watching.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Good luck.
Good luck, homie.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
At Tabernacle in Atlanta.
I'm hosting a whole event, andthen Rick Ross is going to be
performing after.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Amazing.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Amazing.
You know a little something.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
A little something.
All right, folks, that's ourshow.
Tune in to Unglossy, the codingbrand and culture, on Apple
Podcasts, spotify or YouTube,and follow us on Instagram at
unglossypod, to join theconversation.
Until next time, I'm Tom Frank.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
I'm Jeffrey Sledge.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
Smicky, smicky.
Speaker 4 (44:59):
That was good.
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