The Bitcoin Dollar & Crypto-Colonialism with Mark Goodwin

Episode Transcript
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WW (00:19):
Hey and welcome to unlimited Hangout. I'm your host Whitney
Webb. If you are closelyfollowing the rollout of the
global biometric surveillanceslavery state under the guise of
the Fourth IndustrialRevolution, you may have noticed
that many of the powers buildingand promoting the system have a
soft spot for digital currency.Many digital currencies but
currently existing and in theworks are being used to build

(00:41):
the infrastructure for completecentralized control in the
eradication of privacy,specifically financial privacy.
Hence the war on cash and thelesser discussed war on
encryption and bid to labelprivacy focused
cryptocurrencies, is nationalsecurity threats, and drivers of
so called cybercrime.
Many of the most predatorypilots of the Fourth Industrial

(01:02):
Revolution technologies whichare routinely tested on
refugees, stateless people, andother incredibly vulnerable
populations involve linkingdigital ID in some sort of
digital currency or token as tobe detailed and unlimited
hangouts next installment of oursustainable development goals
series. The UN specificallylinks mandatory digital ID
globally to financial inclusionand argues that digital

(01:25):
currencies are necessary inorder for so called Sustainable
Development to advance. Whilethe pitfalls and dangers of
digital currencies are moreapparent than ever, there is a
cultural rift among those who atleast once upon a time saw
certain technologies anddevelopments under this umbrella
like blockchain and Bitcoin as apotential exit ramp from the

(01:45):
road towards centralized tyrannyand control by building a
permanently decentralizedmonetary system. Bitcoin
specifically allegedly anywaywas created in response to the
2008 economic crisis and thecorrupting influence of central
banks and the criminal activityof commercial banks. While some
Bitcoiners have fought to upholdthese values, many powerful
actors in the Bitcoin space andthe broader cryptocurrency

(02:09):
sphere are undermining thisethnos are building systems that
completely oppose the originalimpulse that led to bitcoins
creation. Among those of us whooppose the rollout of the for AR
System and the massimplementation of the biometric
surveillance state. Is it stillpossible to work with digital
currencies and oppose theincreasing push to digitalize

(02:29):
everything is a decentralizeddigital existence still feasible
or increasingly becoming a pipedream? Joining me today to
discuss these issues and more isMark Goodwin. Mark is the
director of editorial for printat Bitcoin magazine. He is also
the author of several piecesabout misguided and even
nefarious efforts to centralizeBitcoin, and the author of the

(02:49):
upcoming book entitled TheBitcoin dollar. Welcome to
unlimited hangout. Mark, thanksfor being here today.

MG (02:55):
Thank you, Andy. It's an honor to be here. I'm very
excited to talk about all thesethings.

WW (03:00):
Well, there is definitely no shortage of things to talk
about. Here, that's for sure.And, you know, we have a lot to
get into. With that being said,these days, there are several
mainstream and academic articlesthat deal with what they term
crypto colonialism, or rathercryptocurrency being used to

(03:20):
entrench and deepen Neocolonialism and neoliberalism,
etc. So a lot of these articles.One example we'll have in the
show notes is the articleblockchain humanitarianism, and
crypto colonialism which waspublished last year in the
patterns journal. Anotherexample is an article from 2021,
which is from Vice a publicationI'm usually not a fan of but

(03:41):
this article did bring up someimportant issues but also
conflated things they probablyshouldn't have completed. So
this article is entitled cryptocolonialist use the most
vulnerable people in the worldas guinea pigs. And I'll just
read a quick excerpt here. Soquote, UK nonprofit Oxfam in
partnership with an AustralianFinancial app has developed an

(04:02):
eyebrow raising solution forVanuatu, which is a Pacific
Island at this specific ocean, Iguess. It's there's a disaster
relief payment system that runson blockchain and
cryptocurrencies, so that whenother systems go down, people
can still pay for essentials.Quote, the idea was that as soon
as the disaster event happened,they can switch on this economy

(04:23):
explained Pete howelsen, asenior lecturer at Northumbria
University, who studiescryptocurrency and blockchain in
an interview, when the situationbecomes less dire, the system
can be shut down, but it's notthe money wanting people who
control the system. It's justsomeone at Oxfam that decides
when the disaster is over, andpeople lose their economic
sovereignty. Continuing on, itgoes on to say Oxfam Oxfam's

(04:47):
blockchain intervention inVanuatu is part of a broad trend
and charity and aid work towardinnovation and solution ism the
belief that every social problemhas a technological solution via
programs based on blockchain andcryptocurrencies. non government
organizations and aid agencieshave said that the shift from
dollars to Bitcoin will enable amore efficient transparent

(05:07):
charity system. But along withas these technologies bring
surveillance and politicalpressures, undermine local
sovereignty and create resourceallocation controls on
recipients. So I'll stop there.But in this article, they
conflate, you know, this Oxfamprogram and similar programs
like the absolutely horrible andare Willian building blocks

(05:29):
program of the World FoodProgram and the UN. And so they
conflate those with a variety ofcryptocurrency and Bitcoin
related projects. And there'salso a conflation of all
cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin. Sofirst, do you think that
conflation is wrong? And why?And second, how might some
people who see crypto Bitcoinetc, as a means of escaping

(05:51):
central bank control, enablingthe same kind of control grid
currently being pursued bycentral banks?

MG (05:58):
Yeah, phenomenal question. Um, I definitely, I see Bitcoin
and the extended cryptocurrencyspaces, very separate things, in
terms of like, you know, what,what we can actually use them
as, as tools, like I thinkBitcoin is, is a very powerful
tool in the right hands and usedin the right way, and not

(06:18):
perverted away from its actualcore, you know, decentralized
property. And a lot of theseother coins are just simply not
decentralized in any way. So,you know, Bitcoin really works.
You know, because it's, it's,it's consensus is held up, you
know, by node runners that thecost of running a node is very

(06:40):
cheap, it's internet andelectricity costs, and, you
know, maybe a few 100 gigabytesof hard drive space, very
minimal computation, whereas youget into some of these, like,
Aetherium. And, and, you know, Ithink we'll talk about Cardano
and some of these other oneslater, and they have a much
bigger you know, entrance feebasically to participate in the

(07:03):
system. Whereas Bitcoin, you canliterally just download core and
sync a node on on like an old,an old laptop, totally fine. So,
there's a huge separation, Ithink of just from that, you
know, what the BitcoinBlockchain is, and how it's
actually, you know,decentralized consensus across
the world. Really, a lot ofthese secondary alternative

(07:26):
currencies are really kind oflike a perversion or like a
bastardization of what SatoshiNakamoto brought to us in a way
to not, you know, neuter thestate's ability to debt pardon,
like Bitcoin does, but rather,like encourages the state,
right, you know, Blockchain is,is just a technology and like
any other technology can be usedfor freedom. And, you know, it's

(07:49):
wonderful freedom tech, youknow, when applied within
Bitcoin, but then you look atsome of these alternative
chains, and it's like, they'rerunning, you know, Petro
dollars, basically, in the formof stable coins. And they're
creating, you know, a completelytransparent ledger. For the, the
transfer of Yeah, of like, stateissued debt, basically.

WW (08:13):
Surveillance probably too, right. Oh, because, you know,
it's a publicly availableledger. So, I mean, yeah, I
mean, surely we're a lot of thisgoes to including CBDCs. Right.

MG (08:23):
100% Yeah, I mean, Bitcoin, I like to, I like to say that
it's a transparency technology.I think a lot of people sort of
mistake it for a privacytechnology, kind of, because of
some of its original use cases,you know, being you know, kind
of a black market money. Youknow, and it's early days, and
its first happening cycle whenit was, you know, inflating it,

(08:45):
you know, 50% of all Bitcoinever issued were in those first
four years. And so we're seeinga lot of it come out, it's a
fast money, you want to spend itquickly, until the havening, you
know, reduces this issuance. Sowe saw a lot of people using it
for drugs, a lot of people usingit for I'm sure horrible,
horrible things as well. I'msure it was used. You know, for

(09:07):
a lot of the things that I'msure we'll get into with with
Yeah, but so it's actually and,of course, absolutely 100% 100%
I mean, no, no, no currency usesmore or supports more crime than
the dollar. It's not even close.And I actually believe we just
had Elizabeth Warren come outand make some ridiculous
comparison or or something abouthow cryptocurrency is funding

(09:27):
the fentanyl market. Which isjust ridiculous. It's like I
don't go after the

WW (09:31):
after the Sacklers. Or

MG (09:35):
cause the crisis. Yeah, exactly. Or the giant influx of,
of fentanyl from, you know, likefrom the CPC. It's like it's
coming into into our borders. Weknow that. I think to blame this
on. Blockchain is ridiculous. SoI guess long and short. Yes,
there's a false you know,connection between these

(09:57):
alternative currencies that aredesigned to enrich the
privileged few that are aroundthe proverbial money printer, or
like if it's a staking system orwhatever, you know, this
issuance of currency. You know,we're just recreating central
banking, basically with muchmore, you know, ability to
surveil, and to control and toblacklist to like destroy, you

(10:21):
know, unsanctioned transactions,or wallets that have used mixers
or any of these privacytechnologies. A lot of these
other changes allow that tohappen. So yeah, I think there's
a huge false connection there.And then the second part of the
question was remind me again,

WW (10:38):
how might some people who see crypto and Bitcoin and so on
as a means of escaping centralbank control might, how might
they be enabling the same kindof control grid currently being
pursued by central banks? And,you know, other actors?

MG (10:52):
Totally. So yeah, Bitcoin is a is an is an open ledger. And
it's a permissionless database.Really, at the end of the day,
the way that you like make atransaction is you imbue data
that can be, you know, publiclypublished, but can't be
modified. There's actually nodecryption or encryption used.

(11:14):
And publicly, within Bitcoin,it's all publicly key
cryptography. So everything isopen, every transaction is out
there, it's in the world. Andthe base layer, the database
itself, you know, every 10minutes, there's a, you know, a
few megabyte blocks that getsproduced by the network that can

(11:35):
contain any information thatanyone wants to imbue into it.
Obviously, generally, these arefinancial transactions, and
innately anything on Bitcoin isa financial transaction, because
it requires a fee to get in theblock, but it's an open
database. And now we have peoplebuilding. You know, there's this
group. Again, not to try to burntoo many Bitcoin bridges here,

(11:57):
but there's a very popular groupwithin the Bitcoin space
lightning labs, they were one ofthe very, very beginning, you
know, propagators, I guess, ofthe idea of the Lightning
Network, which is this scalingmechanism that goes on top of
Bitcoin that basically allowsyou to share, you know, a UT
EXO, which is an unspenttransaction output, which are

(12:18):
kind of like the denominationsof Bitcoin, like the bills. And
so they've been working on thisproject now for a few years.
That was called Tarot. And nowit's called taproot asset
protocol, because they got suedactually, for using someone
else's name. But what basicallythe point of the system is to be
able to imbue other assets innatively into the Bitcoin base

(12:41):
layer. And the main one thatthey're looking to do, of
course, is Petro dollars orstable coins. And there's this
kind of whole general sort ofconsensus within Bitcoin that I,
you know, violently disagreewith, and a lot of people just
cheer it on of how, you know,hey, let's not, you know,

(13:03):
Michael sailor was quoted atPacific Bitcoin last year as
saying, you know, let's not bemartyrs, let's not fight the
system. You know, let's adoptthe dollars and dollars being on
lightning, you know, via this,this Tarot asset protocol is
going to be like $10 trillionindustry, and you know, we're
all gonna make a bunch of moneyand numbers are gonna go up,

(13:24):
and, you know, this is gonna beso great, we'll be able to give,
you know, the Global South,basically access to dollars, and
it's this virtue signaling thingwill give 3 billion people the
ability to use Bitcoin, and thenthey kind of mumble the dollar
part of it. And it's like, arewe really like, is really the
point of Bitcoin here toglobalize the dollar and put it

(13:46):
on faster rails increase themonetary velocity of the dollar?
And in my opinion, obviously,it's not I mean, the whole point
of Bitcoin is to neuter thestate's ability to debt part
and, and to print money. And toissue these these treasuries and
now Bitcoiners, you know, at thehighest level, these are the
best paid people that thesmartest devs are kind of going
to this, this, you know, thisgroup of people, and they're

(14:11):
literally putting dollars on thebase layer. And

WW (14:15):
so really quick, though, isn't another motive behind
bitcoin, supposed to bebypassing central banks, but
also banks in general?

MG (14:25):
Um, well, that's kind of a big thing. That's a bit of a
confusion within this space aswell. I mean, I think the the
actual blockchain like Bitcoinis like blockchain in general,
is a pretty lossy technology.Like it's pretty clunky. It's
very expensive, you know, to tobasically to use this very small

(14:48):
growing database that has alimited amount of transactions
that can be, you know, in a in aset block every 10 minutes or
so. So there's actuallyabsolutely limitations to how
many People Bitcoin can serve onthe base layer. And there are
mathematical limitations to howmany people can actually own,
you know, self custody Bitcoin,on the main on the main chain,

(15:12):
we got 8 billion people orwhatever, and we wouldn't be
able to have 8 billion UTX O's.So we do have to create systems
and scaling solutions that workwithin Bitcoin. And I think some
of those things will end up kindof looking like Bitcoin banks.
And how Finney who is, you know,kind of considered, you know, he
was the first person to receiveBitcoin from Satoshi, and kind

(15:34):
of considered, you know, verylikely to be a part of the
Satoshi team that createdBitcoin. And he has a bunch of
quotes at the very beginning ofBitcoin in like 2010. Even
earlier saying that, you know, Ithink the future of Bitcoin is
Bitcoin back banks. And, and Ithink a big part of Bitcoins,
misunderstanding is that it'snot really prepared to replace

(15:55):
the dollar unnecessarily as amedium of exchange, but it can
replace US Treasuries, as thisgovernment issued, you know,
reserve asset, like the dollarisn't really the reserve
currency of the world, or it'snot the reserve asset of the
world. It's really USTreasuries. And Bitcoin can
replace that. And we can stillhave, I mean, trust is, trust is
still an important part of beinga human being, you know, I mean,

(16:17):
you can't create a lot of thesefinancial situations, mortgages
and some credit and debtcreation, like without, you
know, trust. And I think peoplethink that technology will sort
of replace all human trust. Andthat's just not really
necessarily possible. So like,Yeah, we're gonna have to have
solutions where there arecustodial moments, you know,

(16:40):
hopefully, for a very shortperiod of time to kind of limit
the ability for someone to bedebased. But yeah, it takes
away, you know, fullyfractionally reserved, you know,
kind of the system that we haveset up right now, and US
banking, it's ridiculous,Caitlin long out of Wyoming just
tried to do a bank, that wouldbe, you know, kind of considered

(17:00):
a narrow Bank, which, you know,would have a one to one reserve.
And the Federal Reserve didn'tgive it federal reserve status,
because if one bank went narrow,it would mess up every other
fractional reserve bank in thewhole system. So I think there
will be trust, there will beBitcoin banks in the future, but
they can be created byBitcoiners, they can be created

(17:21):
by you know, Freedom forward,people that are going to, you
know, okay not use this as a wayto just surveil your, your
economics, your economicactivity, we can actually build
these mints that are used blindsignatures that are very, very,
very private. And, and we canhopefully, take away, you know,
the Federal Reserve, and theTreasury's ability, you know, to

(17:44):
fund all of these crazy projectsblow up the debt limit, and then
anytime it comes up, oh, shit,you know, time to pay the piper,
they can just issue more debtand sell it to, you know, all
across the world, to Japan, tothe Bahamas, to China. Those are
kind of the three biggest ones.Right? And I don't think Bitcoin
destroys the bank as a generalconcept, but it definitely

(18:08):
limits.

WW (18:09):
I didn't, I didn't mean kill off the banks, I mean, as to
what you can, like, in theory,right? Bypass the banks, by
paying people in something, youknow, the dollar,

MG (18:19):
right, totally. And then this peer to peer way, you know,
it doesn't rely on anyintermediaries. You know,
whereas if you're, if you'reusing his owl or a fucking
Venmo, or whatever, or GooglePay or whatever, it's, you know,
you're entirely up to the whimof the the payment channels,
whereas in Bitcoin Yeah, I mean,that is its value proposition is
that you can send trustlesstransactions in an adversarial

(18:42):
environment. And they will beprocessed immutably. I mean,
that is the value prop ofBitcoin. So it definitely, it
definitely messes with thestate's ability to debt pardon.
Unless, you know, Bitcoiners allcome together and get this weird
social consensus that, no, weneed to put Petro dollars on the

(19:02):
base layer, we need to supportthese companies like a tether or
a USD see these huge stable coinproviders, tethers up to like
$80 billion. They're now comingout, you know, because interest
rates are so high now. They'relike making oodles of money. I
mean, it's ridiculous. You know,they're making five and a
quarter percent on on billionsof dollars of these papers that

(19:23):
they're holding. And now they'rebuying Bitcoin with it. Now
they're doing other thingsbecause they're making so much
money. And so this group, yeah,I mean, they're incredibly
influential in the Bitcoinspace. And they're very
connected to a lot of kind ofstrange things that have
happened, you know, there was abig BitFenix hack. Maybe like

(19:47):
eight years ago or so that itwas like a, like just under
200,000 Bitcoin were stolen. Andthis is the same people that do
the tether issuance. It's allthe same ownership. And, you
know, of course they then did,they issued some shit coin token
to kind of make up the last thatthey that, you know this Leo

(20:09):
security and sold a bunch of itand then it ended up being that
the person that hacked theBitcoin was keeping it in like a
Google Drive the keys in aGoogle Drive and it was these
like Two Gen Z kids. This thiswoman kind of infamously Razzle
Khan who was like this, like,Instagram rapper, mumble rapper,

(20:30):
totally ridiculous, all thiscrazy iconography. And she had
all the Bitcoin in her, youknow, just like saved in a
Google Doc. And so of course,the DOJ seizes it. Now the DOJ
has all that Bitcoin. And theseare the same people that are,
you know, issuing dollars,they're, they're propagating the
ideas of putting dollars on thebase layer. And they're

(20:52):
incredibly influential, justlike in the in the, you know,
the spoken space of Bitcoin, youknow, there's spaces running all
day, there's big influencers,that a lot of them are paid for,
by, you know, the stable coin,and I have a lot of issues with
it. I mean, there's a lot ofreally nice people, of course,
you know, in the space that, youknow, I'm not trying to say
everybody's a bad person oranything like that. I love a lot

(21:14):
of those people. But also, youknow, there's there's an issue
here, of dollar rising Bitcoinand continuing to propagate, you
know, the biggest us, you know,the biggest terrorist
organization in the world is theUS government. And if we
continue to buy debt and do thisweird orange washing thing that
we're doing, yeah, it's, it'sabsurd. I think it's very

(21:37):
against the, you know, like,what are we doing here? Like,
why are we doing this?

WW (21:42):
Well, if your dollar rising Bitcoin, then instead of Bitcoin
being something that, you know,challenges, the central banks,
you're giving the FederalReserve, you're allowing it to
continue to have the power ithas, which was absolutely, the
problems of that was supposed tobe the motive behind bitcoins
creation. Right. To Yeah, itbecame.

MG (22:02):
So absolutely, I mean, I think there's, there's a,
there's a good thread that, youknow, Bitcoin was created, very,
very likely, you know, directlyout of the 2008 crisis, you
know, in in the first block,there's a note to a UK Times
article that's like thechancellor on the brink of
second bailout for the banks.And Bitcoin was was launched,

(22:22):
you know, it was announcedHalloween of 2008, and was
launched at the start of Oh,nine. And you could argue, and I
think a lot of people dorelatively successfully, that
perhaps Bitcoin, you know, wascoming out of, you know, the US
government or the USintelligence as a way to create
a neutral base asset for thedebasement, the economic

(22:44):
debasement that was coming viathe printing that had to happen
when, you know, all these CDOsand the whole real estate market
imploded in the great financialcrisis. And so, I kind of
proposed this theory that thethis idea of like the Bitcoin
dollar, which is an analogue tothe petro dollar, so, the idea
that, you know, when Nixon didthe gold shock, or took us off,

(23:09):
the Nixon shock, took us off thegold standard in 71, you know,
we immediately, you know,invaded, invaded the Middle East
and started setting up basicallya financial monopoly on the ins
and outs of petrol and oil as ameans to sort of control both
industrializing nations, butalso, hey, we need to print

(23:31):
money. We want credit expansion,but we want to have a guaranteed
buyer to be able to buy up ourdebt. So they created a monopoly
on the ins and outs of, youknow, you had to use US dollars
to buy this energy commodity,that's oil. So if you wanted to
industrialize, you got to buydollars, so we can print dollars
all day, and we know we have aguaranteed buyer, right?

WW (23:52):
And now you have the powers that be moving to this post oil
world are right pushing us thatway. So obviously they need a
new financial system. Right, butdoesn't involve the petro dollar
and so where do you see thoseactors? Seeing what benefit
would they reap from thisBitcoin dollar you talk about?

MG (24:11):
Yeah, totally. I mean, to me, it's, I think it's the exact
same mechanism. You know, youwant your money, your your money
standard to be tied to energy,because you want it to be hard
to source you don't want it tobe something you know, like
literally you can go print thedollar on trees or whatever you
want it to be something that ifyou want to create more credit,
you know, if there's a cost it'syou know, expenditure to be able

(24:33):
to extract that energycommodity, that's what by metal
standards are the gold standardreally isn't energy standard,
you still have to get the goldout of the ground, and that
requires energy. Right? Exactly.And oils exactly the same way.
And so bitcoin is an energystandard, requires, you know,
its issuance requires asignificant amount of energy to

(24:54):
be able to submit enoughcryptographic hashes to you
know, have a chance of winningby Basically a, you know, a
lottery every 10 minutes to seeif you can, you can produce the
block and get the rewards. Andso we've sort of recreated that
exact same mechanism over theBitcoin energy commodity system,

(25:15):
where we've, and I say weobviously like America, I have
nothing to do with it, I wantthis all to burn down. But you
know, America has basically setup a monopoly on the ins and
outs of Bitcoin purchasing andselling. And, you know, well
over 95 I think it's even it'scloser to like, 97 98% of all
Bitcoin pairs, and trades andvolume are in US dollar

(25:39):
denominated, you know, tokens,whether it's actually literally
US dollars, or these, like,stable coins that we're talking
about? And, I mean, literally,it's called tether, right? I
mean, it's like tethering itselfthe dollar to Bitcoin. So you
create, the main difference withBitcoin is that there's a cap
supply, and its issuance isasymptotically, approaching

(26:01):
zero, and then eventuallyactually does round down to
zero. You know, in the after the33rd, having or in the 33rd
epoch, after the 32nd happening,there's no more Bitcoin being
produced that will be aroundlike 2140 or so. And so there's
a cap supply on the actualgrowth and supply of Bitcoin. So

(26:24):
it's demand it's very demandinelastic. So if demand is
super, super high, and you're ona gold standard, you know, gold,
four axes, you know, you cansend, you know, three more
people to the mind, to mindgold, you can extract it out
more, because, you know, you canactually get more of the gold
out because it's worth more meand you will be panning for gold
in our backyard and selling, youknow, our chains and whatever,

(26:46):
because it's worth a bajilliondollars. And, and then you'll
see, you know, the supply willincrease, because demand is so
high, there's so much moresupply that hits the market
Bitcoin, it doesn't do that, itdoesn't matter how many people
are trying to find the nextblock, it's always going to
produce the same amount ofbitcoin. And so it is this very
unique, you know, we've neverhad a monetary system that has a

(27:08):
capped, you know, supply, Imean, it has a finite amount
that can ever be produced that'snever existed before. That's a
state change of money in a verysignificant way. And, you know,
that's, that's a phenomenalthing for monetary growth, in
general. And that's why I am sointerested in Bitcoin, because I

(27:28):
understand that, you know, hey,this is a state change. And if
we use this moment, and we seizethis opportunity to get some,
basically, this kind of likereal estate, in the future
economy of the world, you know,that we should see pretty
significant increase of wealth?And how do we use that? What are
the things that we're going to,you know, a lot of us that have

(27:48):
been in Bitcoin for a while,have made some money? And it's
like, what are we doing here?Are we just going to go relax,
and let it be completelydollarized and just, you know,
let the global south just get,you know, kind of blacklisted
and all these stupid, you know,stablecoin, like, there's this
whole thing of like banking theunbanked, and it's like, you're
just charging them a fee to useyour bank account? Do you still

(28:08):
have counterparty risk? Youknow, we saw some of these banks
that hold paper for these stablecoin companies go under, in the
last six months? And you know,is that really giving this this
virtue service to the globalsouth that, you know, we just,
you know, we've created amechanism for them to get robbed
by US banks. I mean, it's ajoke.

WW (28:28):
Yeah, that's my stop, for sure. And I do want to talk
about what you just said, thiswhole idea of banking the
unbanked and I know that at therecent Bitcoin Conference, which
you and I both spoke s, therewere was talk of that as like a
good thing, banking the unbankedand that that phrase really
concerns me, because it's whatthe UN and a lot of the, the BIS

(28:52):
and the European Central Bankand these guys, even the Federal
Reserve, say that exact samething, right? And what you're
talking about is, you know, howBitcoin is being dollarized, and
enabling those same actors toreally continue to engage in bad
monetary policy and, you know,which translates into a lot of

(29:13):
predatory behavior specificallydirected at the Global South. I
mean, it seems like a total messhere, especially for those of us
that are looking to buildparallel systems to resist,
right, this push to centralizecontrol. So I guess my question
would be this whole situationwe're talking about, who do you

(29:36):
think is likely to win out thenI guess we're talking about
essentially a cultural rift inBitcoin and some people have, I
guess, been making compromiseswith the existing system, not
seeing it is all bad and needingto be thrown out. And I guess
the big theme of my work is thatyes, it does all need to

MG (29:53):
be thrown out. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, and I'm with you,
100%, which is why I'm so gladthat you're engaged. thing with
the space because I think weneed more people speaking
honestly. And truthfully. Andit's like, of course, there are
good people that work in allthese companies and whatever and
blah, blah, blah. Sure, ofcourse, but it's

WW (30:09):
like it's a value judgment. Right? I agree. I agree, people
don't realize maybe what they'redoing. And they can kind of far
from the whole ethos of the, youknow, that was originally behind
all of this.

MG (30:21):
We've gotten. So we've gotten so far from the ethos, I
think, the the cypherpunks. Andthis is why, you know, I know I
said earlier that it's possiblethat Bitcoin kind of came out of
like US intelligence. And Ithink it's definitely a
possibility that absolutelyacknowledge Yeah, of course, of
course. And I have a wholetheory we can talk about with
John Nash, which, whichassociates, you know, to ran out

(30:44):
of Santa Monica and he waswriting papers to the NSA, about
encryption and all this, andthere's, there's a big
connection there. But I thinkthe the extra opions and the and
the Cypherpunk, you know,mailing list, these people that
included how Finney and Zabo youknow, a lot of these, these, you
know, they're basically, youknow, anarcho capitalists, you

(31:04):
know, coders, I think, a lot ofthe writing, you know, when I go
back and read a lot of thatstuff, I mean, I think it really
is in the right place. And Ithink the ethos of sort of early
Bitcoin, in my firstinteractions with it were in
like, 2014. And, you know, Ididn't really understand that it
was something that like, couldgo up in value, I really just

(31:24):
saw it as a medium of exchangeand understand that until a
couple years later, but I thinkthe ethos has changed
significantly in the last fewyears. It's like we saw
institutions arrive. You know,we saw the stable coin providers
go from being, you know,basically a pet project on top
of Bitcoin into being this likedominant share of like,
literally dominating theEthereum network, basically, the

(31:47):
dollarization of Ethereum hasallowed it to be state captured.
And obviously, JP Morgan, youknow, has huge hand in that.
From the very beginning, theyown a lot of crucial
infrastructure and Ethereum. Andthey dollarized it up so much
that the actual native asset,weight on the theory is now more
in stable coins than actually inEthereum. itself. And just

WW (32:07):
really quick, I just want to add, JPMorgan right run by Jamie
Dimon who helped build Citigroupand JP Morgan and Citigroup
basically own, they do own theNew York Fed, which is the
dominant force on the FederalReserve. So they essentially
also dominate the central bankparadigm we're talking about,
Sorry, continue.

MG (32:25):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think these are big
American banks are, you know, ahuge part of, you know, kind of
what I'm getting at where it'slike, the institutions have
arrived, you know, they reallycame in 2017, when, you know, we
first broke, you know, 10k, andthen later 20k, and that's when
we saw these institutions showup. And a lot of them were kind

(32:48):
of talking shit, you know, atthe time of, you know, kind of
pushing it down, and now they'reall like offering services, JP
Morgan has like, jpm coin orwhatever. And then, of course,
you know, this huge investmentin the infrastructure of
Aetherium. So, I think the USbanking system right now, you
know, it has a lot of choices tomake, about how they, you know,

(33:11):
basically try to parasiticallyattach themselves to Bitcoin.
And I think that the Bitcoinersin general are losing kind of
the social information more, ifyou will, about, you know,
what's actually happening here,lightning labs themselves,
again, good people there, but,you know, they're one of their
phrases is Bitcoin eyes, thedollar when they're talking

(33:33):
about adding, you know, thedollar to the base layer, and
it's kind of really theopposite. You're kind of dollar
rising Bitcoin, quite literally.And yeah, you're empowering
these bankers, and you broughtup the BIS earlier and it's
like, you know, Elizabeth Starkof lightning labs did some
consultation for the WorldEconomic Forum in 2016. In

(33:55):
August, in collaboration withDeloitte, this pete this thing
called the future the future offinancial infrastructure. Yeah.
And it's she's actually listedas just Lightning Network and
like lightning labs, I don'teven know if was was set up at
the time the lightning whitepaper had come out, but the
Lightning Network hadn't evenexisted yet. It relied on some

(34:18):
blockchain, or rather some bigBitcoin. There was a fork called
seg wit that allowed the abilityfor lightning to exist. So then
that didn't actually go liveuntil 2017. So this is a couple
years before lightning was even,you know, at at sort of a
workable stage. And now we'reseeing you know, Project
icebreaker came out of the BISwhich is a collaboration with

(34:41):
the naugus Bank and the Bank ofIsrael. And Norway and Sweden,
and obviously, the BIS and theycreated this, this came out in
March of this year. And it'sbasically this idea of how to
use domestic you know, retailCBDCs and literally, it uses the
exact same channel mechanism andtechniques. Knology that is an
essential part of how theLightning Network works these

(35:04):
things called HDL C's, I don'twant to get too much into the
technical weeds, but literally,you know, we have paper trails
of consultation, you know, fromthe people building these
systems. And now years later,we're actually seeing CBDC
systems being being generatedthat literally use the exact
same probabilistic time lockedcode and settlement structure

(35:27):
these payment channels to enableCBDCs you know, and this is this
is right out of the BIS. And so,we're seeing, you know,
collaboration of banker ofbankers, and some of the worst
people in the world with like,you know, these Cypher punk
Bitcoin thought leaders, andit's like, what are you again,
what are we doing here? Not tokeep saying that it's a cop out,

(35:49):
but like, what are we doinghere? Are we trying to build the
Panopticon here? Are we tryingto build that alternative?

WW (35:57):
Well, it's sort of reminds me of, so Yasser Levine's book
surveillance Valley, he has asection on the people behind
Tor, I guess, Roger? Line,right? And how he was basically
collaborating, the people thatTor was supposed to be evading,
you know, so I guess he was,

MG (36:14):
you know, was funded by DARPA wasn't it? Right? I can't
remember,

WW (36:17):
it might have been like, naval intelligence or something
like that. I can't, I can'texactly. Remember the specifics,
because I read it, you know,several years ago, and I only
have so much space in my brain.But he, you know, I mean, he was
basically like, letting the Fedsknow, first when there was a
vulnerability in Tor so theycould explain it, and all sorts
of stuff. And this is a guy thatwas held up as being a cyber

(36:39):
funk, whatever, you know. Yeah.And it's, he's not right. He's
acting like a fed.

MG (36:45):
Exactly. And now, we have to wake up, I think, in general of
like, like, counter dissonanceis a very real thing. Oh, sure.
It's huge. And it's, it'sprolific. And, you know, we're
seeing so much of it, whetherit's Noam Chomsky, I mean, it's
hilarious to me that the NoamChomsky stuff in the sick way,

(37:05):
because it's like, you know, Iread Manufacturing Consent, you
know, I actually literally serveand doing exactly, it's like,
oh, it's a cookbook, apparentlynot a warning. You know, it's
like, how do

WW (37:18):
people like Elon Musk and Peter Yeah, right. Elon Musk,
for example, you know, beinglike, Oh, I'm gonna buy Twitter
because I'm a free speechabsolutist, and then it becomes
freedom of speech is not freedomof free speech. And then, you
know, it's already taken thestep to where they're taking
down more posts for thegovernment than before Musk
bought it and whatever. But hehas this, you know, very, I

(37:41):
guess, like two faced persona,where he has this one, public
relations produced face wherehe's like, Oh, I'm anti
establishment, yada, yada, yada.And then, you know, on the other
side, he couldn't be more of anestablishment goon you know,
100% I feel Yeah, thing built bygovernment subsidies, and
exactly military intelligencecontractor and building the

(38:03):
everything app, which is goingto help house all of your data
and be a huge dominant force inthe FinTech space going forward.
And, and no, and, you know, thebrain chip guy, and, and people
are like, Oh, this is, you know,some sort of like, Savior
promoting free speech andindividualism. Like, no, he's
saying that, why are youbelieving him? And his actions

(38:25):
show the opposite? And it seemslike there's people doing this,
like within the Bitcoin space,that's supposed to be at least,
you know, was viewed as beingdifferent culturally, yeah, a
few years ago. And, you know, itseems like there's a big
cultural war within Bitcoingoing on, at least if it's gonna
fall victim to the same stuff orbe an actual challenge to

(38:47):
Central Bank tyranny.

MG (38:48):
Yeah, I mean, even like Jack Dorsey, right, it's like, he's a
very big Bitcoin hero. And, youknow, he's put in a bunch of
money recently into scalingBitcoin stuff and into this
noster this kind of Twitter sortof alternative, but it's like he
this guy ran this fucking spyshop for, you know, a decade.
It's like, what are we, what arewe kind of doing here? And, and

(39:11):
yeah, the musk stuff is kind ofridiculous. And I think
especially like, post, you know,lock downs. I think we're seeing
this kind of, like, strangeclass kind of come up of these,
like, people that were, youknow, I mean, Elon, you know,
during, you know, during allthat was very, like, you know,
the science is unequivocal, youknow,

WW (39:31):
be invested on cure vac and mRNA technology that Zach COVID
vaccine he showed for exactly

MG (39:37):
like Tesla was literally building that and, and now he's
kind of coming out as this likefree. Yeah, this free speech,
free press. You know, basicallyanti Vaxxer like influencer guy.
And it's something that I'vekind of, I'm noticing it now,
you know, as someone who kind oflived through the last couple
years and you know, dealing withyou know, the social choices

(39:59):
that You know, by not choosingto do this medical procedure,
you know what I had to kind ofdeal with? And then seeing, you
know, like the majority of thevoices now in the space are
people that like werevaccinated, were speaking out
very, you know, for it, when itwas going on. And now it's like,
we're kind of seeing this sortof like the new heroes have, you
know, this kind of controlledopposition coming up and I look

(40:22):
at even like the politicalcandidates that are coming out.
I mean, people are literallyfloating Jamie Dimon now.
Insane, absolutely embarrassing.Oh, my

WW (40:31):
God. But I mean, he basically does run the country.
So he's exactly. publicly runit.

MG (40:36):
You would be the only politician. I think that if
elected president would haveless power, you

WW (40:41):
know, like, yeah, no, debatable. Yeah. Yeah.

MG (40:45):
Okay. Actually, as I said that out loud. I was like,
actually, that's completely nottrue. Unfortunately. I wish that
was more true. But um, but yeah,I mean, it's, it's absurd. And
yeah, he's building this x.comWhich is, you know, basically
like WeChat, USA. He controls

WW (41:01):
on WeChat are major investors in Tesla. Yes. saying
they're very financiallyinterconnected. Absolute seems
important.

MG (41:09):
Seems very important. And now we're building you know,
we're kind of cheering you know,okay, these Evie cars that have
kill switches. Start laying. guythis guy back. Yeah, I mean, I
have, you know,

WW (41:22):
Michael Hastings, anyone remember him.

MG (41:25):
I mean, I have a little flipper zero, which is this
little, like, fun kind ofhacking tool that you can
literally walk down the streetand open up, you know, Tesla
charging ports and stuff, youknow, from the street just
walking around. And again, Idon't I'm not like, against
Eevee in this way. Like, I thinkthere's a lot of stuff in there.
That's, that's really cool andpowerful. But like the systems

(41:46):
that are being built theinfrastructure, the literal
colonialism, of, you know, goingto these places to strip them of
resources. And then, you know,come back and sell them fucking
stable coins that are powered onTwitter through Starlink. It's
just like that, like, I'm sorry,like, you want to own the libs.
So you want to, you know,support Elon Musk. And it's

(42:07):
like, Look at what he'sbuilding. Like, What? What? This
is one of the scariestcombinations of technology
itself and your children. Yeah,yeah. It's such a good win. I'm
really glad we did that. And,yeah, and it's absolutely
absurd. And, and this control,dissonance is fucking
everywhere. I mean, like, Isomewhat recently found out that

(42:29):
like, the Dalai Lama was paidlike, $15,000 a month by the CIA
from like, the late 50s intolike, 1974. And it's like, oh,
well, that's how you get like apro Vietnam Dalai Lama. You
know, it's like, you know, samewith Chomsky, kind of with,
like, 911 Truth and invading.You know, the Middle East, it
was like, Oh, well, we can't Youknow, I can't condemn it, I

(42:51):
can't this and it's just like,okay, these are supposed to be
kinda like spiritual. You know,dissonant leaders, you know, of
our time. And it's like, we'vejust seen this CO option happen
so many times, whether it's likethe hippies in San Francisco
being co opted by the CIA withlike, all this ridiculous LSDM
culture, Shin, bah, bah, bah,like we've seen, literal,

(43:12):
legitimate human. My point hereis legitimate human movements,
be co opted in a very shortperiod of time to become like an
enslavement or degenerate, orcolonial movement, after a very
real beautiful, tangible thinghappened, you know, post summer
love or whatever, you know,spiritual awakening, you know,

(43:33):
into kind of what, you know,should be the the Dalai Lama
stuff, and then kind of beingthis controlled opposition. And
I look at those and the reasonwhy I think it's important to
talk about them is because it'slike, that's happening in
Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a statechange, it is a powerful thing,
I can validate my owntransactions, I can send them
without any single person in theworld. You know, being an
intermediary, which is, which isridiculous. I mean, it's

(43:55):
incredible. But now we havethese actors, and, you know,
it's like, it's ridiculous tothink of something as, as we
consider as powerful and asdangerous as Bitcoin to be like,
just left alone. It's like, no,they're gonna do everything they
can to neuter this technology,and, and, you know, neuter it at
worst, and at best co opted in away that it actually kicks the

(44:16):
dollars life and preserves the,you know, the, the imperialism,
the Empire of America, you know,and that's just where we're at.

WW (44:24):
Well, let's talk about some of the stuff that's going on
with the US government as itrelates to Bitcoin right now. So
everyone knows there's this bigregulatory push and we can talk
about you know, that with stablecoins maybe later, but for the
purpose of Bitcoin, you know,like what I talked about at the
Bitcoin Conference, was theeffort to label Bitcoin a
national security threat, butnot necessarily Bitcoin itself,

(44:44):
because as we've been talkingabout there's very establishment
quote unquote, actors that arevery big into Bitcoin. So why
would those, you know,controversial actors, I guess,
are very close to theestablishment actors. be putting
money in Bitcoin if it'sprobably going to be hit with a
regulatory Hammer of somecapacity. Well, I think they're

(45:05):
very interested probably thoseguys in regulation happening
like there was this article inthe institutional investor
called why the crypto worldshould embrace the Feds
crackdown. And it talks abouthow like basically this will
make Bitcoin the regulatorycrack cracked and will make
Bitcoin you know, worth it. And,you know, in my speech, I talked

(45:27):
about this effort by the WorldEconomic Forum partnership
against cybercrime. Westpac,which includes the FBI and the
DOJ and as you mentionedearlier, they have an insane
amount of bitcoin that they haveseized. Yeah, right, making them
essentially a Bitcoin whale thatcan influence the market. Sure,
right. And they in Westpac,which is you know, they're a
part of, they say that Bitcoinand mixers, anything that allows

(45:53):
Bitcoin transactions to takeplace with financial anonymity,
or increased financial privacyis what makes it a threat. So
that has to be eliminated. Butalso the value of Bitcoin on I
guess I'm telling would beregulated, and not being hunted
down by these guys. The value ofit is a threat. So it needs to
be devalued to stop, quote,unquote, acting as a driver for

(46:16):
cybercrime. So there's a bunchof really crazy stuff going on
there, right. And I personallyfeel amazed that more people
aren't wise to that. And thewhole idea to sort of paint any
sort of privacy enhancingtechnology, including ones that
aren't exclusive to Bitcoin,just like encryption, for
example. I mean, Bill Barr, onthe Trump administration was on

(46:37):
the total Warpath, againstencryption, trying to get a
backdoor for the the DOJ and theFBI and everything that's
encrypted. You know, notnecessarily financial, like
messaging and stuff like that,you know, there's this huge
effort to secure completedominance over Cyberspace, while
at the same time the same actorsare pushing everything and

(46:59):
everyone online for everything.Right. And, you know, that's
really disturbing. And so, Ithink, as it relates to Bitcoin,
you know, this war going onthere is there are these people
that I guess have maybe at somelevel already, like, sold out,
and are going to let Bitcoin beused in this way. And then there

(47:20):
are people like yourself, whosee it as this off ramp from
increased centralized control,but the ways of using Bitcoin,
for those purposes are about or,you know, there's an effort to
criminalize that. Is thereanything you'd like to comment?
As it relates to that?

MG (47:37):
Yeah, I mean, I think just like as a general comment, like,
I think there are so many waysthat Bitcoin can monetize in a
very significant way and enrichyou know, the majority of
Bitcoin holders, and it actuallycreate a system that's more
shitty for everybody that's everthat's ever existed, like, the

(47:59):
issue with the dollar system isnot. You know, it's that it's,
it is obfuscated, like we don'tknow, when a lot of these
changes are made, we aren'tprivy to the closed door
meetings that they vote on, youknow, rate changes, or debt
issuance, or any of thesethings. So I think like, a lot
of people I think, are justgetting kind of numb to the

(48:22):
economic realities of Bitcoinkind of number go up, and
they're just at all costs, theywant to see that happen. And the
criminality of it is reallyinteresting, because it's like,
they're sort of self admittingthat it's a powerful technology,
while also trying to downplaythat. It's only for scammers,
and it's it's not important, andit doesn't threaten the dollar,

(48:44):
but they're also like, puttingout you know, this propaganda
that it's like very powerful andused by drug dealers, and
traffickers and cybercrime, andall these things. So it's like,
they're kind of like, I don'treally understand what their
dialectics are here. It seemsvery confusing. If you're paying
attention to both sides of ofthe purple party. And, yeah, I

(49:07):
haven't really thought too muchabout like the criminalization
of Bitcoin, because I don'treally necessarily see that I
think it's too helpful for thepowers that be in a lot of ways
to, you know, to sort ofchampion it in these little
ways, and really control the insand outs. They don't really have

(49:27):
a lot of control over the actualsystem itself, unless they
subsidize mining. And they'reable to kind of push towards
getting some OFAC compliancelike within block construction
and transaction construction,which of course, they can
subsidize with dollars, which ofcourse they're doing. We've seen
this happen a bunch of timeswhere these big dollar financed

(49:49):
operations, these miningoperations, publicly traded
companies that have mined 1000sof Bitcoin, you know, oh shit,
they filed chapter 11 You go tolook at the books, the stocks
imploded, you know, 199% Andthey have seven Bitcoin left.
And it's like, Well, where didall that Bitcoin go? You know,
how did that How did that evenhappen? Even like an SPF thing

(50:10):
or Aluna like some of these,these big implosions that were,
you know, very likely governmentfunded or government
participated in businesses. Andthen you know, when the Piper
comes, it's like, there's noBitcoin left. And so it's like,
well, where's this Bitcoin allgoing. And you can look at some
of it, you can see a lot of itwas market sold on by Nance,
like 30,000, Bitcoin or marketsold on by Nance after like Luna

(50:33):
imploded, which was analgorithmic setup, you know, it
was something that, you know,could have absolutely been
triggered by a knowing party. SoI see, like, so much potential
for CO option on the ins andouts and of surveillance and of,
you know, sort of, you know, theraising rates, which are
crushing tax demand, it's like,well, we're gonna start seeing

(50:56):
capital gains tax rates go up,we're gonna see them start going
after using this KYC, this know,your customer, stuff, that
they've control the onramps,they can really, you know,
again, it's an open ledger, theycan see everything, I can see
everything, I can go look at,you know, the Ukraine, Bitcoin
wallets, and see where money'scoming in, I can go look at
exchanges, look at the lunarstuff, like I can see all this

(51:19):
stuff, you can kind of piece itall together. And I think that
there's so much, you know, ripeopportunity, unfortunately, for
like chain analysis, and thesethese governments sighs, you
know, adversaries on the networkthat they can really put
together, you know, so much,they can triangulate so much of

(51:40):
your economic activity, if youif you do any sort of public
acknowledgement of a Bitcointransaction. And, you know, how
do you do that, you know, youyou create, you know, you add
Bitcoin payments to Twitter fora few months or whatever, and
you get people, you know, doingthat you get, you know, there's
so many ways you can kind ofsocially engineer someone to

(52:01):
expose their UTX O's or theirBitcoin holdings, you know, in a
public way. People tweet aboutit all the time. People go to
conferences, take pictures, theydo this, they talk about how
much they have a talk about abuy. And there's so many ways to
kind of, yeah, like, I thinkwe're at the silent like, the
very clearly the powers that beare here, they're in Bitcoin.

(52:22):
There's a lot of public speakerswithin Bitcoin that I'm sure are
not good faith actors. But Ithink the majority is sort of
silent. And they're kind of justletting Bitcoiners kind of shoot
themselves in the foot all overthe place, in this confidence
that we've already won, and thisconfidence that everything is
private. And this is a big issuethat I've had with like a lot of
people in the Bitcoin spacetalking about privacy and

(52:45):
surveillance, like, you know,there's this general assumption
that everything on Bitcoin orsorry, everything on lightning
is private. And it's just simplynot true. If there's any sort of
adversary in this open topologynetwork, they can ping your
nodes and can really get a verygood sense of how much Bitcoin
you have, and what you'respending, you know, that you've

(53:06):
locked in a lightning channel.It's very easy, you know,
metadata rules, everythingaround us, you know, I mean,
it's just, we know, Vault seven,we know that the NSA is spying
on us, we know that they havethese hardware and surveillance
networks,

WW (53:21):
and they can frame any anyone they want for cyber
attack. And absolutely, well,seven. Yeah,

MG (53:27):
absolutely. And also, you know, hey, let's Okay, getting
back to some of the lockdownstuff, it's like, a lot of
people literally were gettingtested, and giving their social
security numbers to, you know,these ridiculous, you know,
health organizations, or peopledoing 20, threes in mes. And
it's like, okay, now all thesepeople have a DNA data, they
have DNA data associated withyour social security number, and

(53:49):
now we have you on Twitter,sending a Bitcoin transaction,
or posting a receipt of youbuying Bitcoin. It's like, you
can triangulate that stuff soeasily frame people so easily.
There's so much like, it's sucha kind of a dumb space, even
though we've matured a lot inthe last, you know, 10 something
years. But there's so much youngactivity, I think, you know, the

(54:14):
implications, the futureimplications of like, you know,
you shouldn't, you know, yousend a tweet out about, oh, I
stack this amount I did this,it's like, in five years, that
could be a life changing amountof money. And now you have
timestamps of yourself sayingall this stuff everywhere. And I
think that there's just so much,you know, fruit available to be

(54:35):
picked that that I think a lotof that stuff won't really come
to fruition for a few years. Butwhen it does, I think people are
going to be really surprised athow much information they really
leaked. Probably myselfincluded, like to be honest, you
know, I mean,

WW (54:51):
yeah, well, I wasn't saying that, like, you know, they're, I
guess what I was trying to sayearlier is that I feel like what
they're trying to criminalizeisn't Bitcoin itself per se?
What they're trying tocriminalize? Is what would
afford Bitcoin transactionsincreased financial privacy and
financial anonymity? Yeah,meaning that Bitcoin would be
allowed to exist, but reallyonly in the sort of Bitcoin

(55:13):
dollar paradigm that you'retalking about? Yeah, we're
really a Bitcoin digital dollarparadigm since that's where
dollars going,

MG (55:19):
right? Yeah. 100% No, and I agree with you, I think that's
kind of what I was trying to sayof, like, you know, they're
going to allow Bitcoin to exist,allow you to buy it. But you
know, you're gonna have toliterally scan your face, like,
I mean, they're already placesthat are doing it, there were
exchanges that require a liveselfie, like a video of you
turning your, your, you know,front facing camera on your

(55:42):
phone, and taking a 3d, youknow, kind of video of your face
to be able to withdraw yourBitcoin that already exists.
It's just, you know, kind ofsmall, it's not, it's not on any
of the huge, huge, hugeexchanges yet. But that's going
to continue to happen. I mean,they're gonna get way, way
crazier as they are getting moreand more desperate. I mean,

(56:03):
that's kind of the reality ofthe economic situation is like,
the government can't pay foritself, we pay more money to
uphold the debt of the dollarthan we do to pay our military.
That's sort of a point of noreturn. And now we need to get
as much capital gains taxes aspossible. So you're gonna see
some crazy shit, I think.

WW (56:22):
Yeah, well, it's really ramping up already. Like in May,
you had the FBI, I think theyseize the domains of maybe like
eight crypto exchanges, theysaid weren't doing the Know Your
Customer stuff enough. They wereaffording anonymous, you know,
like giving, giving their usersand unlimited and privacy and
exchanging crypto for for othercurrencies, right. So you know,

(56:45):
they're already going after theones that aren't complying with
this. And you know, living inChile, there's not a lot of
crypto here, but the only cryptoexchange here does require you
right to like, upload your face,and all this stuff. So I mean,
there is a big push for all ofthat. And it's definitely
definitely unsettling to say theleast. So I guess, what do you

(57:07):
think you someone you know,someone with the values that you
have, if bitcoin is sort ofturned into that? What do you
continue to hold and use it?

MG (57:17):
Yeah, I would. Because I still think at its at its core,
you know, what it offers is afinancial economic system, that
even if it's completelyperverted on the ins and outs,
and the on ramps and off ramps,by, you know, you know,
basically all the actors weretrying to neuter now, the fact

(57:39):
that the it is a disinflationarymonetary policy, and eventually,
a deflationary monetary policyis still a state change, even if
it is entirely used, which is avery possible end game for
Bitcoin is that it is used as areserve asset in between central
banks, and that the actual priceof a main chain Bitcoin

(58:00):
transaction priced in Bitcoin iswe'll be more than like, you
know, a day's wage of minimumwage, like That's entirely
possible that we may just priceout, you know, your general
citizens of being able toparticipate on the base layer
because of the monetization ofBitcoin but what it still does
is it still limits the theeconomic growth and the debt

(58:23):
pardoning special privilege fromthe state even if they control
the ins and outs, even ifthey're big, you know, Bitcoin
rising the dollar or dollarrising the Bitcoin you know,
it's still limits their abilityand limits the the nefarious
ability between central banks tobasically to have false

(58:45):
reserves, right, it's, it'sstill an auditable system. So
even if it is very co opted, andthe ins and outs are very
dollarized it still is aneconomic state change that I
still support. I would probablybe significantly less interested
in the Bitcoin space, I probablywould be looking at, you know,
other kinds of privacy tools andother things, not not

(59:09):
alternative currencies. I don'treally think there's any real
value and any othercryptocurrency outside of
Bitcoin, I really, truly believethat. So yeah, I think I would
be like less excited about it.But I think economically like I
think that thesis is stillintact, that it is the state
change and it is a net good forthe economy. But you know, it's

(59:29):
again, it's a tool and tools canbe used to enslave people and
they can be used to free people.So I really hope that it doesn't
go to that. And I'm obviouslyyou know, burning bridges,
you're trying to get the Bitcoinor community to wake the fuck up
and realize that it's actuallyprobably about as likely as not

(59:52):
likely, it's about 5050 rightnow that that's kind of the
outcome. I really think that andyeah,

WW (59:58):
well, I think it's worth burning the bridges per
Personally, I agree is, youknow, important.

MG (01:00:03):
It's Wait,

WW (01:00:04):
why? Why would you want to have something that you've
invested a lot of time and moneyand be used to build a slavery
system? And then, you know, thenyou're sort of locked into
supporting that slavery systemunless you want to lose all the
time and money you put into it,right? Yeah.

MG (01:00:18):
Yeah, no, true. Yeah, it's like, to me, Bitcoin is a means
to an end. And without that, andkind of being, you know, and
it's not just to make a bunch ofmoney, like, I don't really
care. That's kind of happened toa degree. And it's completely
unfulfilling, and I don't reallycare. It's like, this is about

(01:00:40):
our kids, kids. And, you know,like, it's about future stuff. I
don't even really intend totouch any of my bitcoin really,
at all, other than to buildcommunities and systems and, you
know, magazines and printingpresses and, you know, broadcast
studio equipment and all thethings I've kind of built, or
want to build. You know, yeah,it's this is about freedom of

(01:01:03):
the human race. And I thinkwe've been enslaved for an
exceptionally long time. They'veperverted our history, they
perverted our you know, theypropagandized our ability to
connect with with each other indifferent parts of the world.
And Bitcoin can, like exacerbateall that, or can really can
really limit all that. So yeah,I really hope I agree, I agree,

(01:01:25):
burn the bridges, why would Iwant to be bridge to these
people anyway? And, yeah, it'slike this is this is really
important that we get thisright, especially, you know,
within, you know, the, there'sonly a few percent of Bitcoin
even left to be issued, youknow, the majority of the
Bitcoin is owned and held bypeople. And it has to be

(01:01:46):
distributed, it's not aneconomic system that can just
rely on yield. Or rely oninterest rates, it's like you
have to spend it if you want to,you know, use it, which is,
which is great. So we're in thisrare moment in this first, you
know, 20 years of Bitcoin, whereyou know, 99% of it, of all
Bitcoin will be issued. Andthese are the important moments

(01:02:08):
where we actually can makedecisions and limit people, and
push back on the counterdissonance and push back on this
dollarization and not justrecreate JP Morgan, Bitcoin, and
have these absolute freakscontinue to run our lives, you
know, we actually have anability to kind of, you know, we
get a shot at the beasts neckhere. And if we fuck it up, it's

(01:02:31):
entirely on us. And I reallyhope that that doesn't happen, I
think there are enough reallysmart people in Bitcoin, that
have the time and the talent tobuild alternative scaling
situations. And to deal withsome of these privacy things. We
have some incredible stuffcoming out using E cash, which

(01:02:52):
was this invention by Davidchomh. In the 80s, like 8283, he
had this paper about using blindsignatures to create near
perfect privacy are entirelyperfect privacy within a mint.
And now we can use Bitcoin tosort of as the reserve acid for
these mints. And we can whipthem up in 30 seconds. And we
you know, that we can create ourown banks and these private

(01:03:12):
mints, you know, at a whim, andwe can kind of create this
decentralized Whack a Mole whereit's like, okay, you, you've
identified that this person is adissonant and is an enemy of the
state. Well, you can whack them,but there's three more that will
pop up when you do that. Andthat's just a reality of kind of
what we have to do. We have tothink really selflessly and

(01:03:34):
realize that, you know, we havea chance and we can't let it go.
And we need to spend our moneyand put our words where our
mouth is, or whatever thatphrase is. And do something
about it while we still have afucking chance. And if we
continue to let Bitcoin bedollarized, you know, we've
given up our one chance and notonly have we given up our one
chance, we've extended the lifeof the dollar, probably. And

(01:03:56):
that's why I've been Yeah,screeching about this Bitcoin
dollar thing, because and Iwrote this book, because we know
we've seen, you know, stablecoincoders get killed. We've seen
them tweet out about how Israeliand US intelligence are setting
me up. And you know, this guyNikolai. Micheline was then
found, you know, drowned in thePuerto Rican waters with all of

(01:04:19):
his clothes on, you know, a fewdays after maker Dow, which was
his creation voted as acommunity to put a, you know, a
billion dollars into Coinbase ofUSDC. It's like, there's this
wonderful Julian Assange piecethat he wrote in 2006 called
conspiracies governance, whichis in the gatekeepers issue
that, you know, you're in thisBitcoin magazine issue. And he

(01:04:41):
talks about sort of identifyingthe conspiracy. And the way that
you do it is you just put pinsup all across the map of what
you're kind of looking at, andthen you take twine and you
attach all the points and youkind of just, you don't
necessarily know how they'reconnected. But you just look at
this kind of map that you'vecreated and when you look at the
Bitcoin space right now out andyou look at the kind of like hit

(01:05:01):
Galeon dialectics of what we'redoing here, it's like there's
this huge push towards KYCstablecoin embraced payment
networks and in exchanges, andeven from like the privacy
people, like these, they'rethey're recommending KYC
exchanges and stable coins. And,you know, it's, it's just

(01:05:24):
ridiculous. So, yeah, that was abit of a rant there, but

WW (01:05:29):
no, I think it was, I think it was important. So really
quick, I just want to say, youknow, for the audience, really,
you already know, this mark, Idon't publicly endorse or shit
on Bitcoin, because I don'tthink it's my responsibility to
use my platform to tell peoplewhere to put their money, I
think that's a really personaland individual decision. But at
the same time, you know, I dosee Bitcoiners as at least

(01:05:52):
Bitcoiners, like yourself,attempting to use it to build
some sort of parallel system. Sowhat's being, you know, what
we're being herded into? Andobviously, a parallel system
like that is necessary. Sothere's a lot of people well,
not a lot, but I mean, you know,there are people right that shit
on you know, anyone involved inany sort of digital, anything is

(01:06:12):
inherently implicit, andbuilding the for IR. And, you
know, I know people, you know,who are trying to create some
sort of decentralized tech,whether it's like getting people
on some sort of D GoogledAndroid thing if they decide to
continue using a smartphone ortrying to get people off of
apple and Windows operatingsystems onto the onto Linux and

(01:06:32):
all of that. But it's, you know,I think in the near future,
we're going to be faced withincreasingly difficult choices
about how much we enable thesystems. So like, for me,
personally, you know, if bitcoinbecomes completely a tool of
Central Bank's I don't reallywant anything to do with it, I
mean, I understand why you'resaying that, because of the

(01:06:54):
technology and how you feelabout it, and all of that, that
that's within it, but you know,I don't really plan to you know,
use those on an off rampscontrolled or that enable this
same kind of behavior thatbitcoins supposed to stop. So,
you know, I would just probablydo nothing with Bitcoin, it
would just sit there, you know,because I enable those on and

(01:07:15):
off ramps. Right.

MG (01:07:16):
So yeah, I agree with you, I think it's, it's important that
when, you know, we, you know,there's a great great Bitcoin,
who I think is very, very smartand talks about a lot of these
morning's beauty on who is heruns as TECHO. And his kind of
idea is, you know, he has thisconcept of ethical Bitcoin. And
again, ethical is obviously aword that gets perverted to get

(01:07:39):
people to do bullshit all thetime. But that said, it's like,
there are alternatives, thereare decentralized alternatives.
There are exchanges that don'trequire those things. There are
peer to peer exchanges, go toyour local meetup, go find a
miner, give them cash, buybitcoin directly, you know,
there's a lot of alternativeways that just circumnavigate

(01:08:01):
the, the, the, you know, kind ofcorruption of the ins and outs
of Bitcoin. And those are thethings that we need to use, we
need to reject any of thesystems that are using if you're
using a system that supportsstable coins, you're supporting
a system that is buyinggovernment debt. So what are you
doing? And so I don't use any ofthose, you know, I've sort of

(01:08:23):
converted a lot of my thinkingand actions, you know, away from
that, you know, as like, as Igot more hip to what was really
going on, and it's like, yaknow, we have to stand up and
not, like, promote theseservices that are perpetuating,
you know, getting the greatestterrorist organization in the
world. And so yeah, I agree withyou. i It's tough. I, I so badly

(01:08:45):
don't want to imagine a worldwhere that happens that
sometimes it's hard for me tothink about what I would do if
it did happen, because I'm so sodesperately fighting to make
sure that that doesn't happen.Yeah, but of course, yeah,
there's an opposite. There'sdefinitely a possibility in the
future where I think that, youknow, Bitcoin has sort of
failed. Its its its mission ofof kind of neutering state

(01:09:06):
power. It is possible, at leastfor a short to medium term, that
that could happen in ourlifetime. I still really much
definitely think so that nomatter what, you know, Bitcoin
is a multi 100 year experiment,probably about 1000 years.
Something like that. It doesn'treally scale planetary ly, so I

(01:09:27):
don't see any of that shit goingon, but or interplanetary, I
should say. But I thinkregardless, it's state change of
money is so important that it isa net positive for humanity,
even if it's completelycorrupted and used in a lot of
ways until the state power canactually be perverted away. I

(01:09:49):
hope that's not naive of me butI really do think economically
it is exceptionally importantregardless. But yeah, I mean,
shit. It's an open ledger andit's run by the some you No, not
Ron, but, you know, some of thebiggest influencers in the
entire space are some of thespookiest people. And yeah,
there's there's a whole bunch ofways, like we're seeing

(01:10:09):
politicians jumping out now andhitching themselves to it. And
you know, it's becoming one ofthe biggest brands in the world.
And you know, a bunch of badpeople are going to use it a
Bitcoin has to be for enemies.Otherwise, it absolutely can't
be for friends, you know, and wehave to fight for the death for
that ability for anyone to beable to use it. Because if

(01:10:32):
anyone is becomes a gatekeeperof who or who can't make a
transaction on Bitcoin, theentire thing has failed. So
unfortunately, we sort of haveto kind of like, like, yeah,
central banks are going to beable to use this and JP Morgan
is gonna be able to use this andJamie Dimon will probably store
a bunch of his money in Bitcoin.And, you know, there's a lot of
likelihood that, you know, theMaxwell Epstein, you know, sort

(01:10:53):
of blackmail group was likeusing Bitcoin. There's a there's
a great conspiracy that, youknow, Maxwell was a very big
power mod on on Reddit, and wasrunning our news and a bunch of
other things under this useruser Maxwell Hill, the last
thing she posted about, or thisuser posted about which she
stopped posting the day that shewas arrested and hasn't posted

(01:11:16):
since. And it was the number onevoted person on Reddit until
that day, posted about Bitcoin,it was like the last thing that
they posted about so you know,there's a lot of connections
with Bitcoin to a lot of shittythings. And that's sort of,
unfortunately, an endorsement ina really weird way of like, how
powerful this technology is. Wejust need to make sure right, we

(01:11:37):
wake up and don't let it just,you know, get completely
corrupted.

WW (01:11:41):
Well, on that last point, right. So the the justification
for regulating Bitcoin in thesense of taking away financial
privacy is to stop moneylaundering and all of this
stuff. But of course, these guyslike you just talked about, are
very big into money laundering.So, you know, they're probably
the ones using it for that morethan regular people that are
just,

MG (01:12:01):
I mean, Jamie Dimon or JP Morgan saying anything about the
criminality of Bitcoin isridiculous when like they got
caught like with like, you know,millions of dollars of cocaine
on their, on their, you know,their own boat of theirs. a
shipping container, you know,it's like, you know, they're
they're literally banking, sextrafficked, like known sex
traffickers. And then obviouslybuying up consent and all the

(01:12:24):
other ridiculous things they'redoing so it's, it's completely
ridiculous for literally literalcriminals, and criminals,
supporters and enablers to comeout and shit on Bitcoin as a
technology that enablescriminality. It's just like,
Sure, of course it does. Butcash does that way more so and
there's probably no one moreimportant to the infrastructure
and safety of the US dollar,probably then Jamie Dimon, you

(01:12:47):
know, I mean, like, he reallykind of runs the show and a lot
of ways. And so yeah, I thinkit's a total falsehood, while
also having, you know, anextreme element of of truth in
this weird kind of endorsementof the technology. But
obviously, when compared to thedollar, it's just a joke. All
right,

WW (01:13:05):
so we've talked a lot about Bitcoin, and you brought up
stable coins a lot. So I want totalk about that a little bit.
Because in the course of ourconversation thus far, you've
explained a lot about Bitcoinand blockchain and what those
terms are maybe for people thatdon't necessarily know a lot
about it. But maybe people knowa little bit less about stable
coins. So why don't you ifyou're cool to touch on, you

(01:13:25):
know, sort of what stable coinsare? Why and why you see them as
problematic. And then I want tobring up some of the some weird
stuff tied up with stable coins.Yeah, brain about it.

MG (01:13:36):
Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, that stablecoin Rabbit
Hole is really intense, becauseit really connects like the
worst of, of, of all the thingswe hate about our current
system, with like, ridiculoustechnology that just exacerbates
a bunch of issues that we have.So yeah, basically long and
short, a stable coin. You know,first off, the name is just

(01:14:00):
ridiculous. There's nothingstable about it at all. But the
reason why they're called stablecoins is because as opposed to
and again, this is sort of, youknow, this is dialectics here,
as opposed to Bitcoin, which isvery volatile, and can lose 80%
of its value in a year and yadayada, which, of course, is all
true. But over long timeframes,I mean, it's the fastest growing

(01:14:20):
asset ever. So it was they werekind of created, as this, you
know, directly, you know,parallel to the Bitcoin system
as a way to give dollar access.All kinds of, you know, you
might have heard of the Eurodollar system, which basically
was a system of dollars thatwere, you know, created and

(01:14:43):
exchanged entirely outside ofthe Federal Reserve System that
were kind of set up with thisinterest rate, this LIBOR London
Interbank overnight rate. Therewas a whole bunch of banks in
Europe, I think like 12 or 11banks. plus the one US Bank,
which was JP Morgan, of course.And they were the ones kind of

(01:15:05):
being able to control thisEurodollar market and it was
really out of the purview of theFederal Reserve System. So, one
of the reasons why you raiseinterest rates, which we have
raised interest rates so much asyou know, you want to your you
can think of it as the higherthe interest rate, the more
interest there is in being inthat system, because we're
basically bribing you with yieldto keep your money and keep your

(01:15:27):
value in our system and buy ourdebt. So the US government, you
know, started jacking upinterest rates as a way to kind
of combat this offshore dollarmarket that was outside of the
purview of the Fed. And sostable coins are basically the,
you know, the technologicalevolution of the Eurodollar

(01:15:50):
market which allowed but thistime you know, controlled by
entities potentially that arewithin the kind of dollar
coalition are kind of like theUS Cabal.

WW (01:16:03):
Oh, definitely. Yeah,

MG (01:16:05):
I mean, of course, and there's you know, there's a
reason why all these you know,banks and, and stable coin
providers are all you know, kindof you know stationed in in this
Bermuda Triangle Bahamas Islandarea which we just continually
see so much of you know, thisshady shit constantly happening

(01:16:25):
yeah, yeah, yeah. Like like thestate is really like this ocean
state thing and they live on allthese islands and they avert you
know, kind of, you know, the lawof the land with this like
maritime Admiralty bullshit. Andthey all have, you know, their
own laws island by island. I'msure there's trafficking and
just ridiculousness going onthere. And you know, of course,
yeah, that's why we see SPF, youknow, creating FTX. In the

(01:16:49):
Bahamas, the first cbdc in theworld was launched in the
Bahamas, the sand dollar, whichwas tied to the Bahamas, and
reserve currency, which isactually just pegged to the US
dollar anyway, so the first USdollar cbdc was actually in the
Bahamas. So yeah, we're seeingall this shit. But basically,
again, long and short. It's it'sa, it's a tokenized

(01:17:09):
representation of $1 that isable to be exchanged one to one
theoretically, for paper money,or, you know, US dollar credits
in a bank account, via theissuer. So the two biggest ones
are tether, which again, is thatbit for next connected? You
know, they were connected withBrock Pierce. And the last one,

WW (01:17:34):
maybe, in my opinion, we'll just say that, yes, very shady.
Fellas

MG (01:17:39):
say that, yeah. also connected with Eos, which was
another huge affinity scam thatwas the largest Bitcoin scam of
all time. That was about 190Something Bitcoins, 290,000
bitcoins stolen, you know, withall these false promises of
this, like alternative, youknow, smart contract enabled,
you know, same bullshit asCardano a theory, you know, of
all these things. And, you know,of course, you know, they were

(01:18:03):
all, you know, they were bankedand based out of, you know, the
Bahamas, they got a tiny slap onthe wrist, I think it was like
520 $5 million, or something waslike the fine, but they got, you
know, billions and billions. So,yeah, absolutely absurd. It's
the system and this technologythat, you know, is being orange
washed and sort of virtuesignaling as being very

(01:18:25):
systemically important to theadoption of Bitcoin. By
allowing, you know, third worldcountries, basically like
Indonesia, and Africa, and, youknow, budgets and the South
Asian sees, and it's kind ofviewed as this way to onboard
people to Bitcoin, because it'slike, oh, this big, bad Fiat,

(01:18:45):
you know, like, Venezuelaninflation is so high,
Argentinian inflation is sohigh, it would be, you know,
such a beautiful thing for themto be able to use the dollar, I
really wish these people haddollar access, it would be such
a better technological tool thanwhat they're using. So it's
become this totally ridiculousway to dollarized the world. And

(01:19:11):
it's seen as both an alternativeto people that dislike Bitcoin,
because it's not governmentissued. You know, there's a lot
of people that are like, onlygovernments are supposed to be
able to issue money and Bitcoinisn't a state money, but stable
coins are, it's like, well,that's just the status quo. But
yeah, so we're still depends

WW (01:19:29):
on how people view money, I guess at the end of the day,
that distinction.

MG (01:19:33):
Yeah, totally, totally. And so we've seen basically a
Cambrian explosion of quote,unquote, innovation, and stuff
in the stable coin space.Probably most, infamously, in my
opinion with the Facebook'sLibra, which was this idea of
making a basket of currenciesthat then you could pay, you

(01:19:55):
know, through Facebook, Facebookpay, and so it was just kind of
like not a one to one stablecoin, where it was just $1. And
you could exchange it for $1.But it was it was going to be a
basket of currencies, I'm surewould have included the euro,
probably the pound, and thenmaybe the yen. And basically,

(01:20:17):
when that came out, you know,the Congress and most US
government officials kind ofcame out and were like, Oh, this
is gonna threaten the dollar,this is really bad. And kind of
feign this, like, you know,this, this, this disagreement
with, with Facebook pushing thisthe system and saying that it
was going to undermine thedollar, but when in reality, it

(01:20:38):
was going to dollarized theworld so quickly, and where to
put billions of people onto thedollar system overnight. And
China actually realize this, andChina, you know, had a complete
knee jerk reaction to the Librapresentation, basically, and
they launched their cbdc Likeimminently after the Libra, you

(01:21:00):
know, announcement, the Libraobviously ended up kind of, you
know, changed names became DMand ended up kind of getting
shuttered. That guy that wasrunning DM Marcus something.
These now runs light Spark,which is a Lightning Network,
you know, program, we're seeinga lot of former stable coin errs

(01:21:20):
and dollar people kind ofgetting into the, you know, the
lightning space, all of a suddenas lightning is about to embrace
stable coins, believe it or not.So yeah, basically urine. Yeah,
I know. And keep burningbridges, baby. So yeah, it's a
technology that is supposed tosort of paint this idea of

(01:21:44):
stability. And this idea of, youknow, this is a safe place to be
in direct opposition to Bitcoin,which is very speculative. But
it's a bunch of bullshit. Imean, it's it's a centralized
issuance, you're you're relyingon the audit of a bank, and of a
service provider to not takeadvantage of the literal money

(01:22:06):
printer that you've given them.You know, tether has the ability
to print tokens. And they'revery loosely audited and
monitored in any sort ofregulatory way, being, you know,
sort of pushed off shoreentirely from us regulations to
now being in kind of thisnebulous, stateless, I don't

(01:22:27):
actually even know literally,what, where they are, at the
moment. But they're out of thepurview of the US dollar system
legally, anyway. But yeah, it'sit was it's basically this
affinity scam to create consentfor dollarization of the world
and to create this kind ofvirtue signaling for

(01:22:47):
technologists and freedomfighters and all this to start
supporting the dollarization ofthe globe, while just really all
they're doing is making thegovernment richer, making a
select few bankers and stablecoin issuers richer and really
hurting the world and reallyglobalizing the dollar with a

(01:23:09):
super high monetary velocity,you know, these things can be
exchanged incredibly quickly.And they are bearer instruments
technically, in that if you justhave them in your wallet, you
know, you you can go spend themat different exchanges and all
this, but they rely on youshitty rails, they rely on
Aetherium rails, they rely onCardano rails or Tron rails all

(01:23:30):
of these rails have these justreally poorly constructed or
banker constructed alternativeblockchains Yeah. And so money
is going up to just the worstpeople. And it's being done
under this. This guise, as, youknow, being this, you know,
humanitarian effort, and it'slike, spreading the dollar

(01:23:52):
across the world is nothumanitarian, my friends.

WW (01:23:55):
Well, it's even it's even more than the humanity
problematic humanitarian aspectgoes far beyond just the
stablecoin level, right? Like,I'd like to get to talking about
Cardano and some of thesedigital ID efforts, for example,
under the guise of, you know,decent liberating Ethiopian

(01:24:17):
schoolchildren, it's not exactlywhat's going on over there. But
really quick before I get there,I do want to mention a few
things so for people that don'tknow right, to other disturbing
I think oh, there's a lot ofstuff that unsettles me about
it. And then there's you know,Brock Pierce. I think revolver

(01:24:37):
news had an interestingcompilation of information about
him including Epsteinconnections and weird ties to
creepy pedo stuff definitelyworth taking a look at that if
you're not aware, but he

MG (01:24:52):
also former Disney actor was in was a childhood asthma in
just two Yes, yeah,

WW (01:24:59):
yeah. So Epstein stuff more fool. Yeah, so anyway,
definitely some weird stuffthere. But as far as I'm aware,
I think he stepped awayofficially from an association
with tether several years ago.But nevertheless, tether
reserves are held at Deltec aBahamian bank that's probably
also well known for holding alot of FTX accounts, including

(01:25:20):
their shady hast accounts. Andthen the head of Deltec John
shallow pain, very involved inFarmington State Bank, which was
part of the FTX stuff that EdBerger and I did a piece about
on a limited hangout that I'drecommend you check out if you
want more information on that,because they turned this tiny
rural nothing bank basically inrural Washington state into

(01:25:42):
Moonstone bank, and it teamed upwith the guy who created the
Bahamian original cbdc, that youmentioned a bit ago, and some
weird stuff definitely going onthere. And including with the
Federal Reserve, which somehowimmediately approved Moonstone.
And when it shouldn't, it doesand all sorts of weird things
going on there for sure. So andof course Deltec hopefully we'll

(01:26:05):
have a report out on that soonand unlimited Hangout, or at
least in the next couple ofmonths, because it's a real high
of going over its history beforeJohn shallow been very much
Rockefeller centric, tied upwith, you know, of course, David
Rockefeller ran Chase ManhattanBank, very big part of the deep
state, quote, unquote, that'snow been folded in, of course,

(01:26:28):
to JP Morgan Chase. Andbasically, Dell Tech was a big
part of that and even hasconnections to stuff like the
1973 coup in Chile broughtPinochet to power and all sorts
of weird stuff. There which, youknow, the right David
Rockefeller also had a hand inthat type of stuff. But
basically, this horrible Neocolonialist paradigm has for a

(01:26:49):
long time been enabled by thisparticular Bahamian bank tied to
both FTX and tether thatunsettles me, and then talking
about USDC. So circle, is, uh, Iguess the issue where they're
right, and there's been a lotgoing on with them as it relates
to some of this weird stuffthat's happened since the
collapse of Silicon Valley Bank.And they had to move where some

(01:27:11):
of their reserves were keptaround. And after all of the
dust more or less settled onthat phase of the current
banking crisis, circle decidedto park their reserves that they
needed to move around with beingwhy Mellon, and boy, it comes up
in one nation under blackmailseveral times. Probably guess
why. So essentially, it seems tome like stable coins are

(01:27:33):
basically being utilized forvery unsettling purposes by the
same actors that I chronicle inmy book is basically enabling
everything from sex trafficking,to money laundering, arms
trafficking, the worst stuff,you can imagine the wholesale
looting of wealth in thedeveloping world, but also in
the developed world, includingin the United States, you know,

(01:27:55):
enabling the same type ofbehavior. I find it very
unsettling. So just wanted tomake that point about stable coins.

MG (01:28:02):
It's unreal. I mean, literally four days after the
SPF, they filed chapter 11 on1111 fancily enough on November
11. And four days after beingwhy Mellon and a dozen other
banking institutions came out tostart the it was the
announcement of the digitaldollar pilot program with the
Federal Reserve Bank in NewYork, which was a 12 week. Yeah.

(01:28:23):
So that was immediately after,which was also the very next day
Apple Pay announced that theywere allowing circle integration
and letting you use USDCpayments there. Yeah, I mean,
it's the spookiest shit. I mean,being one being why Mellon was
literally founded by AlexanderHamilton, one of the oldest,
most important banks in theworld are certainly in the after

(01:28:46):
the American experiment. And Ithink it has something like a
fifth it has, like, its handson, like a fifth of all assets,
like in the world. It's justtotally ridiculous. And yeah,
they hold the paper for, for usDC, which, you know, Brian
Armstrong, the CEO of ofCoinbase, came out and said that
it's the de facto, you know,CBDC, and I think that's a huge,

(01:29:08):
that's kind of a big part of, ofmy thesis is that the retail
cbdc is kind of a red herring.And it's really about, you know,
I think the government doesn't,doesn't necessarily want, you
know, to directly issue moneyto, you know, to citizens,
because they actually reservemore restriction rights by, you
know, sort of keeping it in theprivate, you know, sector and,

(01:29:31):
you know, we've seen that withFacebook, we've seen that with
some of these other with, youknow, these too big to fail kind
of American institutions. Youknow, they they're not directly,
you know, affiliated with the USgovernment, but they, you know,
their staff is filled with withgovernment intelligence, their
budget is filled with, you know,you know, contracts from the US

(01:29:55):
government. And I think we'regoing to continue To see that
kind of play out that the cbdc Ithink the Fed now which again
launches in a month, it's likeit launches in July, as sort of
this inter banking network. Andthat's actually I think, in many
ways, a lot more dangerous thana cbdc. Retail facing one
anyway. And that just

WW (01:30:15):
enables financial surveillance. Let's just CBDCs
right. Well,

MG (01:30:20):
the thing is, is kind of, I mean, but also like, can we
really be even more of asurveillance hell than we are in
now. And I don't mean that as achallenge. Anyone listening?
Like, please don't, please don'tmake this worse. But like, we
are in kind of a surveillancehell, I mean, anything you do on
your phone, on a smartphone onApple Pay and all this shit,
it's completely surveilled.Totally, totally. Yeah. And,

(01:30:43):
and, but fed now kind of, it'sthis entire banking operation
thing. And it basically likenationalizes, the US banking
system even more, and brings iton shores, all of this euro
dollar, all of this, you know,sort of shenanigans going on it.
It's basically paying everybodythis this much higher rate, you
know, of overnight, overnightbanking, and it's crashing

(01:31:05):
dollar demand outside of theUnited States and bringing it
back in, which is, you know,that's what you know, the
bankers want?

WW (01:31:12):
Well, yeah, I think that's part of the impulse behind this
whole talk about banking theunbanked at the end of the day,
too, you know, we want all ofthe money in our system,
particularly our new systemwe're building so we have to
essentially in the quote,unquote, informal economy, and
bring it in, you know, into oursystem so that we can control
and surveil it more closely. AndI think that's why you're also

(01:31:35):
seeing like, in the US, with theIRS being like every transaction
over $600, I mean, it'll keepgoing down, because they want
everything in the system at theend of the day,

MG (01:31:45):
so the US will basically create these synthetic kind of
treasury reserve asset back backthings that they can use fed now
to kind of, you know, do theseovernight, you know, security,
reverse repo swaps, and then theactual retail, you know, forward
facing, like the things thatwe'll all use, hopefully not you
and I, but, you know, themajority of Americans and folks

(01:32:07):
will use this, you know, they'lluse stable coins, you know,
they'll use USDC, they'll usetether they'll use JP Morgan
dollar coin, they'll use Bank ofAmerica coin, like these things
are all coming in massive ways.We need to issue a lot of money
to be able to service our debt.But the US government doesn't
issue dollars directly theyissue these these Treasury

(01:32:29):
reserves. So they can sell thesetreasuries to stable coin
providers like tether, andtether has become one of the
largest net buyers of, oftreasuries, these short term
bonds from the US government,and they're making so much money
like hands over fist. And Idon't think that's going to stop
I think that's going to increaselike crazy, I think we're going

(01:32:50):
to see way more stable coins,way more banker coins, because
we've already digitalized thedollar. I mean, like your Bank
of America, you know, balances adigital dollar, you know, I
mean, so little of it isactually physical, or backed in
any way. And I think we'll justsee that continuing to happen.
And these sort of retail facingstable coins will in fact, be,

(01:33:12):
you know, the, the CBDC, youknow, and now we're gonna see,
you know, kind of maybe controlthis and instead of coming out
and saying, Let's ban the USgovernment from directly issuing
CBDCs, hurray, hurray, we won.But meanwhile, they're
promoting, you know, stable coinusage in the private sector as
if it's this win. And it's like,no, no, no, the private banking

(01:33:34):
sector of the US government isthe shareholders of the Fed. And
they are the people that are,you know, basically enabling the
imperialism and colonialism ofthe United States government.
These are the people we don'twant to support these people.

WW (01:33:50):
Yeah, I definitely agree with them, we do not want to
support them. So I want to runsomething by you. That's a
little bit interest well onseemingly but I think might
illuminate some of the funnybusiness going on with stable
coins. So the UN for example. SoI talked earlier, briefly about
the World Food Programs,building blocks program, which
was basically like Syrianrefugees, okay, you want food

(01:34:15):
from the UN and the World FoodProgramme, handover, your
biometrics scan your irises,you'll have to pay with iris
scans to get access to food? Andobviously they can't say no,
because even though it'svoluntary, okay, I'll
voluntarily starve orvoluntarily hold over my
biometrics to be able to feedmyself in a war zone, right? Not

(01:34:36):
exactly voluntary. So the humansdoing stuff like that they're
backing something I wrote abouta few years ago, which is under
the ID 2020. Alliance, the pushfor digital ID that's basically
created by gates and theRockefeller philanthropies to
force digital ID on the entireworld under the guise of
fulfilling SustainableDevelopment Goal target 16.

(01:34:57):
Target nine is about legal aid.Identity for all yada yada. So
basically, for example,stateless people in the border
with Thailand and my Mr. TheKaren people. An agency that was
involved in the UN sex for foodscandal was allowed access to
children. And it was the sametheme of handover your
biometrics, and we'll issue youyou know, wallets with all this

(01:35:22):
information about you trackingyou from birth to death,
including not just like, youknow, your identity credentials,
quote, unquote, but all yourmedical history and your
education history and all ofthat, and tied up with your
biometrics. And if you want aid,right, or access to the only

(01:35:42):
hospital these people haveaccess to, which is run by, you
know, partners of thisinitiative, you have to
surrender that, you know, it'sit's very messed up. So the UN
is pushing a lot of this stuff.But in August of last year, one
part of the UN at least wascalling for halting the use of
stable coins and cryptocurrencyin general, including Bitcoin in

(01:36:02):
developing countries. But then afew months later, in December,
the UN started dispersing aid toUkrainian refugees in the form
of USDC. So and then, of course,I'm sure you and maybe some
people in the audience are awareof the weird stuff going on with
FTX and crypto donations toUkraine. So what do you make of

(01:36:23):
these policy contradictions fromthe UN?

MG (01:36:28):
I mean, it's just, I mean, it's just another sort of notch
on the belt of just the, youknow, ridiculousness of of sort
of these huge infrastructuralinfrastructure, you know,
entities in our worldgovernance. Yeah, it's
absolutely ridiculous. I thinkto be on one hand, you know,

(01:36:49):
shitting, on the capabilities ofBitcoin, you know, on one side
of the mouth, and then the otherside of the mouth being like,
oh, no, it's essential for, youknow, buying drones for the
Ukraine. And by I mean, like, Ipoked around on a lot of those
websites, and was kind oflooking and I looked at a lot of
wallets and was doing someresearch with my friend, little

(01:37:11):
elites about, you know, a lot ofthis stuff. And I mean, it's
absurd. The amount of money thatwas going through the lack of
communication, the different thediscrepancies between the
numbers announced and what wasactually, you know, apparent on
the blockchain. And, yeah, Imean, it's just, it's such a
great example of like, you know,like, the, just the hip hip

(01:37:34):
hypocrisy of the purple party, Ithink, for Biden, you know, to
be and Warren and kind of theunit

WW (01:37:42):
party, like red and blue together, right. Yeah, exactly.
That's, I

MG (01:37:45):
mean, yeah. I mean, when you look into the, and I'll get back
to some of the Ukraine stuff,but you look at the purple party
of the financial system. Youknow, it's the Federal Reserve
Chair is sort of the, you know,the person is the one and I'm
sure they're, you know,blackmailed and whatever

(01:38:06):
compromised like anyone else,but every single Fed chair, from
1979, through now, with theexception of one Yellen, who's
obviously now the TreasurySecretary, was nominated by one
political party and re nominatedby the other. So Paul Volcker,
wealth Chairman from BenBernanke, 87. So he was Carter
nominated, and then re nominatedby Reagan, Greenspan, from 87 to

(01:38:29):
2006. He did it four times hewas Reagan, then bush, and
Clinton, then Bush, Jr. and thenBernanke, which was bush and
then Obama, and then power wasTrump, and then Biden. And it's
like, Okay, we have this hugeideological difference,
apparently, between Trump andBiden and voting for Biden and
saving democracy, and Trump isdestroying the world. And yet

(01:38:50):
they can re nominate the exactsame person who's, you know,
kind of arguably most importantin controlling the interest
rates of the dollar system.It's,

WW (01:39:00):
the bankers run both parties. So it's really not that
surprising once once you dothat, you know, yeah. And then

MG (01:39:06):
and you look into the, you know, the connections of FTX
with all these huge bankers asas you just expressed their own
you know, right before theycollapsed, they talked about SPF
was on a podcast like a coupleof days before they collapsed
about talking about wanting tostart a stable coin. And so
you're seeing you know, a lot ofthese Yeah, this there's this
use case of okay, well, we candistribute money to the Ukraine.

(01:39:29):
And Bitcoin magazine actuallyhas a Ukraine like department.
We have a print magazine in theUkraine, which is very
interesting. I don't know a tonabout it. But they have been
using Yeah, cryptocurrencyBitcoin and the stable coins as
a way to, you know, I guess onpaper support and protect

(01:39:51):
citizens and sort of in thisthis war effort, and then maybe
potentially, below below paper,you know, maybe money laundering
They are using this technologyin a way to. Yeah, I mean, it's
just absurd how much money hasgone into the Ukraine with this
technology? And yeah, it'scompletely absurd. I can't even

(01:40:13):
articulate a thought of of howhypocritical it is to be passing
legislation attempting to, youknow, regulate this as like a
dangerous technology. And thenon the other side being, you
know, virtue signaling, youknow, with blue and, and yellow
flags about how good you know,the stable coins are for the
Ukraine. It's, it's totallyabsurd. And,

WW (01:40:36):
yeah, consider the fact that, like, we already know, at
least now, right, that provablyI think it was Seymour Hersh,
saying that a lot of money thatwas destined for Ukraine was
used by the Ukrainian governmentwas Alinsky types. For you know,
ill gotten gains and that a lotof the money sent over there,
there's no paper trail, so noone really knows. So like,

(01:40:57):
Ukraine is the conflict thatcomes after the US is pulled out
of Afghanistan and right, youmentioned Julian Assange
earlier, he talked a lot abouthow the usefulness of
Afghanistan to these particularpowers, right, yeah, as it
relates to things like moneylaundering, you know, it wasn't
just that the money wassquandered in Afghanistan, it
was intentionally lost, becausethere's a black budget thing

(01:41:18):
that goes on. And, you know,this is all wrapped up in terms
of US monetary policy. And aswell, because you basically have
this standard FASEB 56, wherethe government has one set of
books, and they publish anotherset of books publicly, that's a
lie. And they don't have to tellyou it's a lie. So no one

(01:41:39):
actually knows where money moneyis going. Right. So this is
doing that. With Ukraine. It'sthis giant money sink, and
they're using, including the UN,not just the US government, or
not just FTX, which was tied upwith like the Democratic Party,
for example. But the UN itselfis also using USDC. Right? Yeah,

(01:42:00):
it gets lost. Oh, yeah. But theyclaim it's not gonna get lost or
being misused. But for some, youknow, it's just,

MG (01:42:09):
and this is where Bitcoin I think, is a state change.
Because, you know, you can't,you can't really have two books,
you know, you can have a shittyexchange running a running a
bucket shop, that's, you know,doing ridiculous reserve
violations and commingling userfunds all i FTX, of course. But,
you know, you, you can't youdon't have as much opportunity

(01:42:32):
to obfuscate, you know, shittyaccounting, which is like, Yeah,
I mean, how much of our currentstate of the world is downstream
from, you know, the US going offthe gold standard Vietnam War is
kind of that seems sort oftechnique of like, you know,
this Afghanistan, Assange theoryof, you know, like, this war was

(01:42:52):
meant to just kind of bebasically a money pit. And a
laundering opportunity. Andthen, you know, are, obviously,
military colonialism within theMiddle East was kind of directly
connected to oil. And then wesee these, like, color
revolutions happening, like wesaw, like the CIA and the coup

(01:43:13):
involved in Ukraine is I mean,it's very, that's clear. That's
something that happens seven,eight years ago, something like
that. Yeah. And then we alsosaw, you know, like, what
happened with the IranianBritish Petroleum Company, and
that sort of, you know, we werebasically lying to, you know, BP

(01:43:34):
used to be IBP. And there was a,there was a coup there against
the Shah, I believe, and sort ofthis idea of, you know, they
were charging them basicallytelling them that the the oil
entity was losing money, andIran was paying taxes, because
they were losing money, the

WW (01:43:53):
overthrow of masa deck. Yeah. installed the Shah.

MG (01:43:57):
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Exactly. And then he came back after he
nationalized, the oil fields. Sowe're seeing like color
revolutions and sort of COoption of, of, you know, lesser
democracies in the US, I and weeven saw that in Central
America. And now we're seeing,you know, like El Salvador and

(01:44:18):
some of this Central and SouthAmerican countries that are part
of these, like 66 dollarizedcountries in the world. You
know, what, where was the USinvolvement in in that? And I
think so when we look atUkraine, you kind of have to
look at the total picture, learnfrom history and be like, Okay,
well, this is sort of theplaybook that the US does,
unfortunately. And obviously,you know, I'm not like,

(01:44:40):
supportive of a nationalcountry, you know, crossing a
border with military action, ofcourse, but it's like, you look
at, you know, the sort of bigpicture and it's like, it's just
stinks to high hell for sure.

WW (01:44:53):
Yeah, but I think the involvement of so much like
weird crypto stuff and Ukrainesort of signals to me that you'd
like in the past, you know, alot of invasions and military
action were based aroundPetrodollar politics. Yeah,
yeah, exactly. And now it seemslike it's about we're entering a
different phase where it's alittle different, you know,

MG (01:45:11):
Bitcoin dollar politics may be, you know, I mean, it could
be a direct sort of parallel tokind of Afghanistan or Iraq
involvement. Is it now? Sorry,go ahead. No, no, no, no. And I
think it's strange that we justpulled out you know, this
Bitcoin dollar thesis kind ofcame in 2020. And March 2020,

(01:45:32):
when we saw everything implode,we saw oil go negative. In
markets, it's like I, you know,I lived my entire life, it's
like the US goes and invadescountries to go steal oil. And
now we're, you know, it'strading negatives in the future
market. And right before thathappened, you know, obviously,
this was the COVID lock downs,which so much of it was, you
know, government and, you know,big institutional, you know,

(01:45:56):
control over government kind ofpushing for this big lockdown.
So we see a global lockdown,like two months before bitcoins
issuance in May of 2020, we hadanother happening. And it was
the first time that the relativeissuance of Bitcoin was actually
below 2% relative issuance. Sofor the first time ever, Bitcoin

(01:46:19):
was actually issuing less thanthe rate of inflation of the
dollar, and wrath less than therate of gold coming out of the
ground, which an extraction rateis about 2% a year. So we have
this like mathematical momenthappening in Bitcoin, two months
before this thing is about tooccur. We see a collapse, total
collapse of all markets, dollargoes down, Dixie goes down,

(01:46:40):
stocks go down, gold goes down,oil goes down. You don't
nothing's supposed to all movedown at once at the same time,
you know, like that's, that's asign of manipulation, like,
where's the money actually goingto be going into nothing? And
then, you know, we see Bitcoincrash to $3,000. And then over
the next 12 months at 20x, andit was over $60,000. A year

(01:47:03):
later. And so, what alsohappened during that moment, you
know, we just disappeared andleft Afghanistan and left a
bunch of shit there. And then,you know, the Ukraine stuff
starts right after, you know,the COVID and forced lockdowns,
which now we're learning, youknow, we're kind of this
catastrophic failure of publichealth. And I

WW (01:47:24):
think it the same people that we're talking about got a
lot of wins out of the lockdowns, it was catastrophic for
regular people. Yeah, but youlook at someone like Jeff Bezos,
and how much market share Amazongained, for example, how many
billionaires came out of theCOVID lock downs? Yeah. And how
it pushed forward a lot of thesepre COVID agendas to make
everything, push everything tothe digital sphere, make

(01:47:46):
telehealth ubiquitous, make morepeople shop online, shut down in
person shopping, and all thestuff that I've you know, was
coming from people like EricSchmidt, of Google, and this
National Security Commission, hewas leading, you know, they were
talking about before COVID andstuff to beat China, they said,
right, but obviously, you know,more about their ambitions

(01:48:10):
really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,there's a lot of crazy moving
parts to all of that. I mean, Idefinitely think it's, it's
important to think about howthings have changed, because I
feel like a lot of independentmedia, and it's something that
really bothers me, is still verymuch trapped and looking at the
world through the lens of thepetrodollar. And that game has

(01:48:30):
obviously moved on, because weeven have the US and the Biden
administration, for example,openly pushing for this post oil
economy, the net zero stuff,which is being developed really
by the bankers that havecaptured control of the UN, you
could argue they really ran itthe whole time, because of
Rockefeller influence with thefounding un and all of that. And
I tend to lean toward thattheory, really. But even if you
don't think the UN operatedresponsibly, or whatever,

(01:48:53):
before, it's very clear now thatthey've been captured by
bankers, and that these are theones creating quote unquote,
sustainable development. Right,right. Yeah. And you look at
Bernie and Mike Bloomberg,leading that just insane. So,
you know, I just don't Yeah, Ithink especially Oh, go ahead.

MG (01:49:14):
Just what the the energy thing that you're talking about
there, I think it's so it's socrucial to the Bitcoin dollar
kind of ideas that, you know,now we're coming out, you know,
we saw the Biden administrationattempt to do this 30% tax on
Bitcoin mining. I mean, thestate control over energy
production has a huge hugeeffect on bitcoins success,

(01:49:36):
because its energy usage isdirectly related to its
decentralization and its abilityto sort of, you know, process
sensorless transactions. And so,you know, we're seeing, you
know, the state control lockeddown on energy sources on
battery production. We're seeinglike a Tesla nationalization,

(01:49:56):
basically of, of minerals andbattery Technology. You know,
it's a software company as well,of course, with its driving
shit, no one's going to catch upto them there. But the energy
stuff is so important. And nowwe're seeing, you know, yeah,
this kind of, we'regreenwashing. You know, state
control over over money now viathis, like green virtue thing.

(01:50:20):
Sorry. So there's

WW (01:50:22):
no, I think that's a great addition. So I think part of
what we're seeing, too, in termsof this move away from the
petrodollar, and again, I wouldreally wish people independent
media stop acting like it'sstill 2019. Because we're
definitely world by now, yeah,well, I think people will get
really comfortable with thatsort of analysis. And you don't

(01:50:43):
really like to, I don't know. Imean, it requires a lot of
revisioning of your worldview.And I had to sort of go through
that, too. Because I wrote a lotabout Petrodollar politics back
when I worked at MIT Press, andobviously things, you know, like
we're talking about, havechanged quite a bit. So um, I
think, though, you know, thisidea of technocracy is important

(01:51:04):
to look at because their energyis the currency and people are
allotted a certain amount ofenergy that they can use. And so
there's this idea ofintroducing, I guess, scarcity,
at least for the masses in termsof how much your energy quota
and you're only allowed toengage in certain amounts of
economic activity based on howmuch energy that consumes,

(01:51:26):
right? Yeah. And this isbasically what the net zero
paradigm is moving towards. Butthe question is, how do we get
from where we are now to there,I don't necessarily think it's
going to be like from one to theother straight off, there's
going to be some sort ofgradualism. And you see so much
to with the whole like Bitcoindiscussion and energy usage
stuff and energy usage as itrelates to digital currencies, I

(01:51:47):
think somewhere in there, you'regonna have this gradualism style
approach that takes us fromwhere we are now to that
technocracy paradigm. And it'sYeah, I think you are kind of
onto something here about whatthe plan is, but I don't
necessarily have all the, youknow, steps of that mapped out

(01:52:09):
and know for sure, but it seemsto me like that's probably, you
know, somewhere in the in theright ballpark, for sure.

MG (01:52:15):
I mean, I'm just a dude with an internet connection. You
know, it's like that, too. Yeah.You know, yeah, you know, like,
I have no idea. It's just, youknow, I've learned a lot and
just watching, you know, thesepeople kind of operate and like,
Yeah, I mean, I don't know, Ikind of came at, I've kind of

(01:52:36):
come in a lot of this stuff froma really strange way where,
like, I, you know, was kind of a4chan poster in like, 2016, and
kind of, like, got into sort ofthe red pill kind of conspiracy
stuff through that field. And Ithought if it was ridiculous,
and I saw a lot of the COoption, like happen, like, I
saw, like, the queue, peoplehappen, I saw this stuff sure

(01:52:57):
occur, that was, you know, in myopinion, kind of this direct,
you know, kind of controlledopposition to like, actual, like
leaks and truth stuff that wascoming out of WikiLeaks, you
know, Podesta leaks, and allthese things, Vault seven, and,
you know, all this shit. Andthen I got really into bitcoin
from just being in the Bay Area,just like people, you know, I

(01:53:18):
worked all these companyparties, I was a bartender, you
know, up until 2020. And justlike, was getting to interact
with all these people in thesecompanies, seeing how they act
at parties, seeing these things,and just kind of being in the
Bay Area for like, this decade,the last decade, and witnessing
everything there. And it's like,I don't know how you can really
just like, stand aside and justwatch that happen without, you

(01:53:39):
know, picking up something orlearning and it's like, again, I
don't know, who's reallycontrolling this Cabal, or this
dollar coalition or whatever. Imean, it's I think it's
impossible to know exactly, butwe can see the actors, we can
see the like, at least this wasmeant for it, right? Yeah. Yeah,
for sure. And we can kind of seelike, hey, there's a absolute

(01:54:00):
way where they could use Bitcointo prolong the dollar and
globalize the dollar and extendthe kind of, you know, we should
have probably given up economichegemony, you know, to China, to
India, to, you know, kind ofwhat the BRICS movement is kind
of now, you know, probably 10years ago, or 2008, or whatever,
you know, we probably shouldn'thave recovered from that. But we
didn't bail out, you know, thecitizens we bailed out the banks

(01:54:23):
and, you know, you just look atall this shit. It's like Kamala
Harris was the DA in Californiawho should have charged Steve
Minuchin. With all of thisprofiteering off of the
collapse, and she decides notto, then he becomes Secretary
Treasury prints more money thananyone and now she's the VP. And
it's just like, I don't know howyou can kind of just look at all
those things and just not seeeverything. And counter

(01:54:48):
dissonance. That's like, likethe Trumps shit. It's just an
infuriates me because it's likethis no one was more important
to like Operation warp speed andlock downs and all the shit that
we've had than Trump and yethe's viewed as This like, anti
state demigod and

WW (01:55:02):
isn't his administration in prison, Julian Assange? Yeah,
it's just clown world a lot ofYeah. What are we talking about
there? Well, again, there's alot of cognitive dissonance in
this whole, like politicalSavior rhetoric around Trump, at
least with his base. And I'vetalked a lot about in my work,
how there's this culturalpriming for people to look for
that political savior. SoTrump's base thinks I think they

(01:55:23):
found it right. And other peoplethat don't like Trump are
looking for their own version ofthe Savior. But they're all
controlled by the bankers.

MG (01:55:33):
in their, in their controlled by their own, well,
sorry, our own emotions, they'recontrolled by their emotions.
It's like, I think the Q peopleare just as dumb as, like the
Trump derangement syndromepeople like I think they're both
dumb. It's like, they're,they're, they're being
manipulated by and their consentis being manufactured by, you
know, these ridiculous, youknow, like Operation Mockingbird

WW (01:55:55):
belief stuff. It's no one wants evidence. No one cares
about evidence or facts anymore.It's all about belief and your
belief in something. You know,your trust in something. I mean,
there's all these efforts torebuild trust, right, since
COVID. That's been the big themeof the WEF it's been a big theme
of the UN. And trust securescompliance. That's why they're

(01:56:16):
doing it right. Yeah. So they'retrying to create all these
figures that we trust, so thatwe will comply with what they
say. So me, you know, maybe it'shard for the West these days to
build, you know, trust withTrump's base, right. But you
know, you roll out people thatare in that sphere, whether it's
Trump or Elon Musk, or PeterThiel or Ron DeSantis or

(01:56:39):
whatever, no one you heard themthat way. Yeah.

MG (01:56:42):
He feels interesting to where like he kind of caused the
bank run on Silicon Valley Banklike that was kind of his baby.
He's a huge coiner has come outand

WW (01:56:51):
he claims to be a Bitcoin maximalist. But then he goes on
stage with Mike Pompeo and saysBitcoin is a Chinese financial
weapon to destroy the dollar. Soagain, it's like Elon Musk, you
know, and he doesn't he's likeprojects this I'm a super
libertarian. And then hisactions he created the most
Liberty destroying CIA frontcompany, probably to ever exist.
Palantir created Facebook, whichis, you know, a DARPA cut out

(01:57:15):
basically, and all this otherstuff and eighth house Starlink
met with Jeffrey Epstein, weknow now co invested with him
and carbine, which is takingover the emergency services of
911 to build a pre crime controlgrid. That's not about liberty,
Peter. No, I wouldn't. I wouldurge you to reconsider, at

(01:57:37):
least, you know, well,

MG (01:57:38):
but he did write the intro. Exactly. He did write the
foreword to the sovereignindividual 10th anniversary
edition. So he's super based andgreat, right. All right. Well,
maybe he

WW (01:57:48):
thinks he's a sovereign individual, because he's on
accountable and untouchable, butlike people that Palantir is,
you know, whose lives they'veruined or will ruin the future?
I don't think he sees them assovereign individuals. You know,
I

MG (01:58:02):
mean, the guy that the guy that runs the company that sells
data to the US government, it'slike,

WW (01:58:08):
all, all, every US intelligence agency, every US
and there's like, 18 of themnow. So

MG (01:58:16):
it's absurd. Yeah. And I'm sure there's deep state. Yeah.
And I'm sure I'm sure there'sthere's like injure,
intelligence fighting. Like,like that's kind of there is
factionalism

WW (01:58:26):
Most definitely. That's why Epstein was taken down in my
opinion. Right. Right. Right.Right. Right. Interesting. It
wasn't because the establishmentwas mad about sex trafficking.
No, no, no. Someone off? Well, Idefinitely think there was a
factional thing going on. Andactually, I think a lot of it
has to do with his affiliationwith Mohammed bin Salman, who

(01:58:47):
sort of had came to power inthis apparent coup in Saudi
Arabia deposed John Brennan,former CIA director, John
Brennan's golden boy in SaudiArabia, who was the previous
Crown Prince, and then you have,you know, before his arrest and
2019, he was really tied up alsoallegedly with Tesla and Elon
Musk. And Elon Musk is, youknow, hangs out with Kushner and

(01:59:11):
all this stuff. Kushner washanging out with NBS, there's
this weird nexus there. That'ssort of in Trump land, right.
And then you have John Brennanleading the Russia gate stuff to
take down that faction, I thinkit's pretty clear, in my
opinion, at least, that there'sdefinitely something there
that's more likely a betterexplainer of why Epstein was
arrested and quote, unquote,suicided. Very useful for a very

(01:59:33):
long time. And a key part of hisusefulness was his connection to
what he was doing with JPMorgan, in my opinion, and the
collapse of Bear Stearns in2008. And a bunch of really
shady stuff that he was involvedin that a lot of people don't
really like to talk about whenit comes to Epstein talked about
before, right. But yeah,Epstein, in that same stuff he

(01:59:55):
was building around the time hewas arrested. He was very
involved with this guy named BenGertz. Oh, who is a scientist?
Trent open transhumanist. And heruns something called
Singularity net. And he is oneof the top guys at Hanson
robotics that produces Sophiathe robot right. And Sophia the
robot was rolled out and givencitizenship by NBS while he was

(02:00:17):
being NBS was being advised byEpstein. So you can sort of see
how that might have some weirdconnection there. And has a big
connection to this card Donaldstuff involving Charles
Hoskinson that I want to getinto, and, yeah, as we wrap up
the podcast, sorry, go ahead.

MG (02:00:33):
Well, just I think, I mean, I think this is a great into the
Cardano stuff, but just the ideaof citizenship, I think that is
a an angle to all this that isnot talked about enough. Where,
you know, the elite sort ofcircumnavigation of KYC. And of
a lot of this, you know, theserules are in place, you know,
for us, but there's obviouslyways to, you know, for elites,

(02:00:55):
basically to circumnavigate thisstuff. And this was something
that Geoffrey Lubin when he was,you know, he's a co founder of
Ethereum. And when he wasexplaining the, you know, the
you basically how you could buyEthereum, before it was issued.
I mean, he's literally on cameratalking about, you know, here's
how you avoid, you know, antimoney laundering and know your

(02:01:16):
customer regulations, so you canbuy as much as possible. We know
JP Morgan has a huge share, andEthereum. But this idea of
citizenship, I think, theconnections of it, and how it
relates to cryptocurrency andBitcoin, like, I think you look
at like the TerraMar Project,you look at some of the it's like,

WW (02:01:35):
I don't know. Yeah, right. Exactly. Or the UN and the
Clinton Foundation. Yeah.

MG (02:01:41):
And, you know, it was sort of a little bit under this guise
of kind of being this like,ocean cleanup thing, but like a
huge part of it was about oceancitizenship, and sort of
creating this like offshorecitizenship

WW (02:01:53):
for offshore bankers. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

MG (02:01:56):
And, you know, she's a submarine pilot. What the What
is the science shit that they'redoing in the, you know, what are
they looking for in the Bahamas?Like, who knows? I don't know. I
don't want to get into too muchof that stuff. But I think this

WW (02:02:08):
shorter a cement mixer do his island before he was
arrested? And I don't know.

MG (02:02:11):
Yeah, yeah. I don't know, either. I don't know what
they're looking for building. Dothey have a submarine dock
underneath there? Who knows. Butthe citizens ship stuff is super
important. Because we're nowseeing like, you know, there's
this like Indonesian islandcalled Palau, that has all these
blue that has all theseconnections with Clinton. Biden
signed off on their, you know,their, their, basically their

(02:02:33):
support budget from the US andit has this very loose
citizenship, you know, passportconnection with the US, where
basically people could like swimup to this island, get a new
passport and then be able to goright into the United States. No
problem. And now we're seeinglike, basically places offering
this as like a service in thecrypto extended crypto space

(02:02:55):
where like, you can go get acitizenship from this little
Winky dinky I heard about thisin the

WW (02:03:01):
conference, and it blew my mind. I was like, someone was
telling me about it. Like, oh,yeah, these people I just were
talking to you were doing that.And I was like, that's what
intelligence agencies do, dude.Yeah.

MG (02:03:10):
100%. I mean, it's fair me out. Yeah, I'm with you. And I
mean, this is where a lot of my,I don't know, just just poking
around and looking at all thisstuff. And it's like, you know,
there's clearly something goingon with like, inter Island sort
of citizenship. And I think it'sa way that these people are kind

(02:03:33):
of circumnavigating reporting oftheir finances. And then also,
you know, how it relates totrafficking and, and all that,
whether it's drugs, or what elseare they circumventing? Right?
Exactly. And you start to piecetogether all that stuff. And
it's like Disney cruises,stopping off at little St. James
Island for snorkeling, and it'sjust gets so fucking dark so
fast. But but now we're seeinglike, NFT citizenship. Yeah,

(02:03:57):
being presented as a way to youknow, that then by Nance comes
out and says you can use thiscitizenship as KYC as your KYC
component. Oh, no, that whenthey're basically offering it as
like a service to like, youknow, how to, you know,
basically, certainly meansexactly, yeah, because if it's a
financial fee, then none ofthese laws matter. You know,

(02:04:20):
it's like to the rich, they'renothing. It's like, it's just,
it's just part of their budget,you know, like JP Morgan
spoofing the metals market, theypaid the largest fine in the
history of banking. And it waslike a fifth of the operating
budget profit of just that oneoperation. It's

WW (02:04:36):
like, or HSBC money laundering for drug cartels and
all that stuff. And they getcaught. You know, the fines,
nothing of what they made. Yeah,totally.

MG (02:04:44):
So while I think the citizenship shit is really
crazy, and I think the way thatIDs are going to work in a
blockchain, hyper surveilledmodel is really interesting, and
I think that there are already

WW (02:04:55):
seeing it with what you just brought up. It's going to be a
little people aren't going tohave these loopholes like you
just discussed, but the richWell, yeah, so it's this
panopticon. And it looks likewe're all included because it's
quote unquote inclusive. Right?But rich people can are gonna
have all these workarounds andloopholes, and they're setting
them up right now.

MG (02:05:15):
Yeah. And we're seeing, I think with the Cardano stuff to
kind of loop back to that, like,there's this whole affinity scam
within that that's using, likeinstitutions of academia as a
way to sort of build you know,yeah, affinity, right. And I
think we've kind of seen like,academia and like, certainly

(02:05:36):
like technology, academia aslike being a very corrupted,
like, I think there's a reasonwhy Epstein was so connected to
a lot of scientists in theacademic world, and I don't
think it's all just eugenics. Ortrans. You know, I don't
remember

WW (02:05:52):
but I think a lot of it was but Oh, of course, of course. I
really,

MG (02:05:56):
absolutely. But I think a lot of it is sort of like, you
know, kind of ManufacturingConsent. For you know, whatever
we just went through. I mean, Ithink academia was a huge part
of I got kicked out of college.I went back to school for
electrical engineering, and Igot kicked out of college. We're
not getting back. And I thinkAkademia was a huge part of it

(02:06:17):
still is, I mean, they're stillrequiring Well, it's always

WW (02:06:19):
been that look at MIT, where Noam Chomsky, for example, was
actually in heavily funded.Yeah, it's been it created
mitre, one of the shittiestmilitary and intelligence
contractors to other exists theMIT and mitre stands for MIT.
And it's been a huge part of themilitary industrial complex,
since the military industrialcomplex, was created. Chomsky,

(02:06:39):
for example, at MIT, when hefirst started off got a ton of
military funding, right. So Imean, most people at MIT
probably get some sort ofmilitary funding at some point,
even if you're a linguist,right?

MG (02:06:50):
I mean, we just saw, I mean, he's way more than a linguist. I
mean, he bass. I mean, I know,

WW (02:06:54):
I know. I know, basically, in the 50s and 60s, yeah.

MG (02:06:59):
But huge part of inventing, you know, the infrastructure for
computers. I mean, he's, youcould say he's kind of the
father of computers and computersystems in this very strange
way.

WW (02:07:07):
People talk about that a lot. But Epstein knew they ever
thought he wanted to meet withrice.

MG (02:07:11):
Totally. And then we see this guy that was just, I think
he was just opposed last night,James Staley, who was the CEO of
Barclays, and JP Morgan. Yeah.And his grandfather was James
Ryan Killian, who was thepresident of MIT from 48 to 59.

(02:07:32):
So and his dad ran a chemicalscompany and his grandfather was
Staley of WT grant, when theywent under. So there's just
like, it just everywhere youlook. It's just like

WW (02:07:46):
intergenerational crime families. Yeah. I mean, the
people that put Jamie diamondand power essentially, aside
from the Wexner crowd were thecrown family, which is like the
quintessential intergenerationalcrime family, except for maybe
the Pritzker is, which are alsoa big part of the Epstein story.
For sure. I mean, ThomasPritzker is in the black book is
numero uno. Why did JeffreyEpstein call him that?

MG (02:08:10):
years that even mean? Even mean,

WW (02:08:12):
right? Why is he number one? I mean, even Wexner didn't get
that in the black book. Youknow, I mean, yeah, weird stuff
going on. So not enough peoplelook at these families, but one
of the keys. key reasons thePritzker IRS, for example, had
been so successful in whatthey've done. They were very
early on involved in CastleBank, which was like, one of the

(02:08:35):
most notorious at least at thetime, offshore financial banks
built by former CIA guy PaulHalliwell, who was a Republican
insider in the Pritzker years.Were all tied up with the
Democrats and it was theirlawyer, Burton Cantor that
helped set up Castle bank withHalliwell. Right. And, you know,
all this Republican Democratdirty money mixing off there in
the Caribbean. I mean, based onwhat we've talked about today,

(02:08:57):
it doesn't really sound thatdifferent than then does it?

MG (02:09:00):
You know, definitely not. And I think that's, that's such
an important part of, I think,you know, maybe it's a good you
know, kind of general you know,kind of note to leave on, but
sort of this like, the cycles ofkind of the Psyops and insanity
are compressing like so, likethey have to, and now we can see
these like, you know, basicallylike harmonies or fractals, or

(02:09:24):
you know, whatever, like justcomplete reinventions of, of
these mechanisms, like occurringin real time. It's like we're
seeing them happen. And it'slike, oh, that's just like, this
thing they did, and like, oh,wow, Ukraine is just like
Afghanistan. Like just the factthat we can even notice that
because it's only been 20 years.I think is like that's very
important. It's like, you know,the node researchers are

(02:09:46):
starting to see you know, thiscycle is compressed and we're
able to kind of like see how theconspiracy or the coalition or
whatever Cabal, whatever thedollar system like how they
operate and we will We'relearning from it because I have
to do it so much quicker. It waslike, you know, the, the
financial crisis is are nowhappening every few years, and

(02:10:08):
we're probably going to haveanother one very shortly. Oh,
yeah. We've lived through it. Imean, I'm not I mean, you know,
I'm not old by any means. AndI've seen like, three, you know?
Yeah, exactly. And it's like,we're, we're noticing, I can
only imagine that people thatare, you know, 5060, whatever,
twice our age that are, youknow, what they're noticing if

(02:10:29):
they were really kind of payingattention. So I think as the
cycles compress, you know itthey get more desperate.

WW (02:10:38):
II and they're more desperate. What are we going to
do about it? Right, right.Before I get to that, which is
the last thing I want to talkabout. I do want to go back to
Cardano. And Charles. Yeah,please. Because I think it's
important under the topic of thecrypto colonialism stuff, right?
So Hoskinson, co founder ofEthereum. And there's several co

(02:11:00):
founders of Ethereum, one ofwhich is Vidovic, Butera and
Butyrin. harissa is name who Iwant to talk about in the
context of this thing. Butbasically Hoskinson has teamed
up with who I mentioned earlier,this transhumanist scientists
that was funded by Epstein,they've been Birdsell. So
Cardano and singularity net haveworked to increasingly fuse

(02:11:21):
their operations and singularitythe singularity net is run by
Ben girdle. And, okay, around. Ithink this happened after
slightly after the Cardanoannounced they were going to get
involved with the Ethiopiangovernment. So the conversation
which is normally veryunpleasant, at least if you're
me, thing, you know, outlet toread has an article that it

(02:11:43):
published about this calledEthiopia's blockchain deal as a
watershed moment for thetechnology and for Africa. And
it starts off talking about thelaunch of Bitcoin and then
there's this conflation ofbitcoin and how everyone
doesn't, you know, these are allthe negative things that have
come up about Bitcoin. It's beenembroiled in these massive

(02:12:04):
controversies, but nowblockchain is being used for
good and being used a tribute tothe social and economic welfare
of people in the developingsouth. That's what it says. And
there is this lady's reasoningfor this who's African by the
way, which is, I mean, what asell out. She's basically saying
that this program by CharlesHoskinson for Ethiopia is going

(02:12:26):
to make everything better forEthiopian children. Here's how
she describes it. She says, afew companies have begun
showcasing blockchaincapabilities to various African
countries. Unlike most othercryptocurrency blockchains,
which focus on private sectoruse in developed regions like
Europe in North America. Theirapproach has been to target the

(02:12:47):
governments and publicinstitutions in the developing
world, obviously, for altruisticreasons. I'm being sarcastic
there. Yeah, that's why I'mlaughing, listening. But you
know what to take me literallyon that. So anyway, she goes on
in April, the Ethiopiangovernment confirmed that it had
signed a deal to create anational database of student

(02:13:08):
teacher ids using adecentralized digital identity
solution. The deal involvesproviding IDs for 5 million
children across 3500 schools,which will be used to store
educational records. This is thelargest blockchain deal ever to
be signed by a government andhas been making waves in the
crypto asset industry. And shegoes on to talk about how

(02:13:29):
digital ID is going to bepromote real financial inclusion
for me, but Okay, so you'retalking about real financial
inclusion, but this is supposedto be blockchain for educational
credential. So obviously, youcan see in there that this is
part of the broader un backedtotally Orwellian digital ID,
you know, paradigm where it'syour everything, your access to

(02:13:52):
information, your access tomedical care, your access to
education, your access to moneyis all going to be based on this
digital ID. And then she goes onto say, This is what makes this
promising is that this is thefirst main blockchain projects
are focused on serving theAfrican market with goals that
align with the developmentalagenda set out under the United

(02:14:14):
Nations Sustainable DevelopmentGoals, as well as the African
Union agenda 2063 goals whichare basically the African Union
equivalent of the SDGs bigsurprise and so then she goes on
to talk about Cardano and howCardano commission the software
company input output Hong Kongare IO eight i o h k, and a
Mergo, which is based in Japanto develop and maintain the

(02:14:36):
Cardano blockchain and thatCardano is technically owned by
this Cardano Foundation, a Swissnonprofit, and the projects are
based this you know project istrying to show how the Cardano
blockchain and its coretechnology can be used to
benefit African countries. Andthen it goes on to say this
about what Cardano the projectactually is. So in the case Some

(02:14:58):
of the earth Ethiopian dealinvolving Cardano and IO HK
which Charles Hoskinson runs I'mpretty sure yeah. Yeah, he says
or it says a Tala prism is beingused that project will build
digital identity solutions onthe Cardano. Blockchain. The
idea is to start by grantingprimary, secondary and
university students a digitalidentity that can track their

(02:15:19):
educational career, and futureprogress. So every test you fail
in school will be there forever.You know, but this is also part
of what I mentioned earlier withthe Karen stateless, stateless
people in Thailand and Myanmarbeing built by ID 2020, tying
all of that to their vaccinationrecords, their Health Registry
from the time they're born ontied to their biometrics tied to

(02:15:43):
their finances. And that'sessentially what's what's going
on here. But it's being framedas ending crypto colonialism by
some of the same outlets thatwe're talking about crypto
colonialism as being bad. Thisis supposed to be how to stop
it, you know, and it's backed bythe UN and all this stuff. But
you know, as I just mentioned asecond ago, singularity net is

(02:16:05):
fused with this and thisparticular project, as far as I
believe, I think it'ssingularity net as well is
involved with this AI lab thatEpstein's philanthropies helped
fund into existence. So you havea lot of Epstein stuff there.
And Epstein, and this depositionhe gave in 2012 to the US Virgin
Islands called Africa, a greatplace to experiment fertile

(02:16:27):
ground for experimentation. Sowhat do you think he's doing?
You think Epstein wasn't acrypto colonialist? He's a
serial financial criminal andsex trafficker. And in his
company that was, you know, hewas creating at the time of that
deposition, he was trying to getfunding all these programs for
vulnerable use in the US vi tosort of herd them into what he

(02:16:49):
was building, the tech FinTechcompany he was building which is
basically like a codingsweatshop by the sound of it.
Right. But allegedly, accordingto the US Virgin Islands, that
company founded after his firstarrest was a key part of a sex
trafficking operation. So whatelse was he trying to get
vulnerable kids for from theUSPPI? Question mark, question.

(02:17:11):
More questions. So withEthiopia, and all this stuff
going on there, and these peoplebeing tied to it and framing
themselves as anti cryptocolonialist, very disturbing.
And also the question arises,because of the people involved,
what is all this data being usedfor from these kids? Right?
Because you have, you know,singularity net, and Ben Gertz

(02:17:32):
will have this tied to Sophia,the robot, which is supposed to
be building its AI that controlsthe robot right off of the data
it's trained on. And now theyhave this sort of ability to
access all of this stuff. Well,they say it's decentralized. But
how decentralized is it? Really,you know, I mean, a lot of these
guys, including stable coins andall this that we've talked about

(02:17:55):
today claim, oh, we'redecentralized and so on and so
forth. But that's not exactlyalways true, right?

MG (02:18:02):
Yeah. Not even close to true. Especially Cardano. I
mean, no, absolutely notcentralized. There. It is very
centralized, not decentralizedin any way.

WW (02:18:09):
Yeah, exactly. And then you have vitiligo you Terran, sorry,
if I'm butchering his name, Ithink Vitalik

MG (02:18:16):
booter. In but due to right, well, alright. His name deserves
to be

WW (02:18:20):
strong and fastest on the wrong syllable. Know how it is.
Exactly. Yeah, whatever. I speaktwo languages. I'm not that bad,
whatever. But anyway, he came upwith this thing called Soul
bound tokens. Are you familiarwith that? Yeah, yeah. Where
he's basically charting out thesame idea of tracking someone

(02:18:41):
you know, their whole life on inthese NF T's that you know, are
basically the same thing as whatHoskinson is building here in
Ethiopia, and called them

MG (02:18:50):
soul bound tokens.

WW (02:18:52):
I mean, this disturbing ass name. Yeah, yeah. So I think to
say the very least, you know, Ireally wish that more Bitcoiners
particularly the ones thatactually have the values of
original Bitcoin, like you do,would start calling this stuff
out more because there's a lotof conflation, like I've talked
about in some of thesemainstream articles, nice

(02:19:13):
academic articles, but also analternative media, you know, all
Bitcoiners everyone that has isinvolved in crypto in any way,
they're all the same. Right?Right. Right. But there's a lot
of, like we've talked abouttoday, you know, there are some
differences. And the question isfor Bitcoiners, specifically,
but also other people that maybe looking to the some of these

(02:19:33):
technologies as a potential exitramp. The ability to use that
stuff as an X exit ramp has tobe fought for and it has to be
fought for now, because likeyou've talked about, a lot of
ground is being lost and thebattle may eventually be lost to
be able to use it that wayanyway, and then it's just part
of the same system you'resupposed to be fighting against.

(02:19:55):
So it's like everything else,you know, going on right now at
some point you have to have redlines. you'd have to say, I'm
not gonna cosign that, you know,

MG (02:20:05):
it's so messed up too specifically with it being
Ethiopia is like, Ethiopia iskind of so beautiful because it
was never colonized. Like itactually kind of played all the
colonizers against each other.And they would like, take
weapons from one side and use itto shoot the other side and then
turn like they were neveractually colonized, they were
kind of the only place in Africathat really wasn't colonized.

(02:20:26):
And now we're seeing Epstein,Charles Charles, yeah. And this
this did shit is so especiallyon these centralized systems,
it's like, you're creating awalled garden and a data depot
for that information to getleaked or to get taken. It's
like, I mean, it's like, anytimeyou have a collection of I mean,

(02:20:47):
even KYC exchanges have to dealwith this, too. It's like, I
think there was a lawsuit inIllinois, maybe there was a
state where that was suingCoinbase for holding all of
their data of their, like 3dscans of their faces and
whatever on a on a server thatgot that got compromised. And so
all of that data got leaked.That was, quote, unquote, an

(02:21:07):
accident. What these people arebuilding and colonizing, you
know, Ethiopia with, it's likethat by design. Yeah. And it's
really messed up. And

WW (02:21:17):
this is what sustainable development means to the UN who
again, I've been captured by bybankers reiterate that. So this
is a banker design vision,right? Yeah. So you're in
Bitcoin to own the bankers?Right. Right. Right, calm or
whatever. You What are youdoing? Or yeah, and I

MG (02:21:38):
would say that, I'd say the majority of Bitcoiners
understand that, I think, yeah,and these other, you know, are
basically bastardization of whatSatoshi did and the creation of
centralized banking, I thinkpeople realize that with proof
of stake that there's like adilution of holders, you know,

(02:22:02):
like, people can get that, butthere's like a next level to,
like, people just love to scamand learn about why it's a scam,
why the economic, you know, youknow, is set against the
citizens and is set to enrichpeople, they don't really,
really get into that at rocketlearning, and certainly don't

(02:22:22):
have necessarily an open mind tolike the true depths of how
disgusting this really is. And Ithink did decentralized like, a
really interesting thing,because I think that there are
some really cool use cases withthat, if done in a way where
they're self hosted andencrypted and posted in a way

(02:22:42):
you can create results.

WW (02:22:45):
Most people aren't going to not hold on this type of stuff.
That's

MG (02:22:53):
totally. Right. Right, exactly. And even some of the
decentralized, the biggest oneright now that I think people
are, there's a whole bunch ofstuff that I don't necessarily
feel comfortable sharing some ofthe sources, but there's going
to be a lot of movementhappening and decentralized
standards. And that is sort ofwhat was the project that that

(02:23:18):
was called by. And that was aproject that was worked on by
this guy, Daniel burgers, supersmart. Very nice guy. And now
he's working for block. JackDorsey Lee, kind of deep, TBD
company. And they're working ona Bitcoin digital ID, that, as

(02:23:38):
far as I know, is about to havesome pretty big, you know, the
whole thing about digital IDs inthe walled garden, it depends on
if someone with a huge, hugestake in the identification, you
know, sort of coalition, it youneed someone to adopt the
standard, right? And so thingsthat I've heard from people is

(02:23:59):
that a very, very, very big,large state operation. Maybe in
California is going to beadopting one of these web
service standards. Yeah.

WW (02:24:08):
Any of that, though, like for me digital ID, if you
consider the fact that like theNSA and the CIA and Israel's
unit, a 200, GCHQ, in the UK,etc, etc, can probably get into
any device you have. Oh, yeah, Idon't really, you know, you're
just, it's like any sort ofdigital ID even if you take
certain measures, it's probablygoing to be like a sitting duck

(02:24:29):
for those agencies. So if yourgoal is to not be surveilled and
to be, quote, unquote,ungovernable, I personally, I
don't know if I'm going to getinvolved with that. But again,
you know, people trying to buildparallel systems and take back
our technology, yada, yada,yada. I mean, if you want to do
that, fine. I don't know ifthat's going to be the solution
that's going to get us out ofthat. You know, I think it's

(02:24:50):
more about community building atthe leg level. But, you know, I
mean, at least people are, in asense trying to do something,
but I personally, you know, I'mjust wary of all digital IDs
period. So Brian put a differentcoat of paint on it, but I'd you
know, I see it as a sitting duckfor the bad guys.

MG (02:25:11):
I agree 99% Like I definitely agree it anytime
you're curve creating, I meanyou're creating a an exploitable
attack surface anytime you putany of your identification into
a computer. I do think likestill

WW (02:25:29):
do, and even people that are critical of it, you know, just
know things.

MG (02:25:35):
And I do that too. I mean, I'm not like this perfect, like
I'm pretty public, with like,how I operate on social media
and whatever. And that's not allgood stuff, either. But I do
think like there is absolutepower within, you know, PGP, and
some of these public keycryptography and some of these
encryption decryption schemes,like they are very powerful. And

(02:25:59):
they have been attacked by thestate, like a lot of this
cryptography like, you know,they were sort of viewed as, you
know, munitions basically. Andthat it was like, militaries,
you know, issue that thistechnology was being released.
And so a lot of these OGcypherpunks, like, put it on T
shirts, they released it asbooks, they did all these things
to, to, you know, Phil Zimmermanto create PGP as something that

(02:26:20):
could actually be used by peoplearound the world, knowing full
well it will also be used byspies, and intelligence
agencies, and all these peopleto operate horrible, horrible
thing,

WW (02:26:30):
I see what you're saying, democratize the tools, don't
just get them in their handsmake an example to everyone, if
they're going to use it, I can,I can get that right. But at the
same time,

MG (02:26:39):
I think you're totally right. And I think we should be
very wary of all of thesesystems, including Bitcoin and
I, you know, I've basicallydevoted my life in many ways to
Bitcoin, education orjournalism, or whatever. And I
still think that there's a lessthan, or more than 0% chance
that it was intelligenceoperation, right, like its

(02:27:01):
creation, but I can still seehow the technology and the
tools, regardless in a in afreedom way, regardless of its
generation, which I think isvery unique to Bitcoin. But
obviously, that's why I'm solike, jacked up about how we
need to push back on this stuff,because any technology can be co
opted so easily. And it is justsuch a scary, scary world to go

(02:27:22):
into.

WW (02:27:23):
Totally. Well, we probably have to end it there. Because
this has definitely gone onlonger than a lot of my podcasts
tend to but I think it was areally important conversation,
because a lot of stuff isn'tbeing said, you know, a lot of
what you've talked about, andwe've talked about today isn't
really being said, especially inthe Bitcoin space. So I really
hope more people with the sameyou know, sort of value set that

(02:27:44):
you have in the Bitcoin space docome forward, at the very least
to differentiate themselves frompeople like Charles Hoskinson,
because there are people thatthrow everyone in the same mix.
And I don't really think youknow, that's fair, knowing
people like you and others likeyou. So I definitely think the
more voices that are added, youknow, about these issues, the
better off we will be. But youhave mentioned a couple times

(02:28:06):
that you have an up coming bookabout some of what we've
discussed today, the Bitcoindollars, so kit work, when and
where, what, what detailsregarding those things about the
book, you know, why don't youlet us know that and where
people can follow you on socialmedia, etc?

MG (02:28:22):
Yeah, totally. So, yeah, the books been finished up for a
bit. I literally got a messagefrom the publisher, as I was
talking to you right now, soabout to have a call to talk
about some other things. Sohopefully, very soon, I was
hoping to have it out in timefor the conference, which was a
couple of weeks ago.Unfortunately, that wasn't able

(02:28:43):
to happen, but I'm thinkinghopefully in the next couple
months, certainly by the end ofthe year, especially because I
think just so many of the thingswithin the the thesis are sort
of already playing out. Youknow, so but a lot of the stuff
I've written about is availableon Bitcoin magazine.com You can
kind of search by author, youcan search Mark Goodman and find

(02:29:05):
find me there I've written a lotof stuff on there about digital
dollar stable coins, the youknow, the the birth of the
Bitcoin dollar was kind of myfirst article for the magazine.
And that kind of sets the tonefor the thesis. So we'll be
publishing with Bitcoin magazineas well, which I'm very excited
about. We are continuing thephysical print world, obviously,

(02:29:26):
you know, I run the editorialfor the print magazine, which
we're very stoked that you'vebeen in now a bunch of times,
which is awesome. We hope. Well,we'll be three and Oh, right.
Yep. And that's a bunch of timesyou know, three's a crowd. And
you can definitely find usthere. stored up Bitcoin

(02:29:46):
magazine.com. You can follow meon Twitter at Mark Goodwin with
an underscore between the W andthe AI n. And yeah, I hope to
see y'all out on thebattlefield, yelling about this
stuff because it's superimportant. And yeah, yeah,
thanks so much for having me.This was a blast.

WW (02:30:04):
I definitely think it's a battlefield. And I think a lot
of people don't see that. Imean, there it is an information
war. And I think right now to anextent Bitcoiners are losing
that. So I think this is a big,you know, what a lot of what
you've shared today, I think isa step in the right direction
for the coiners I hope more willcome out and show what side

(02:30:27):
they're on because it really isa time for everyone to start
picking sides. Are you going toback this banker? This taupe
banker built dystopia? Or are wegoing to build something
different? And you know, it'stime to pick the side? Most
definitely. And I think the morepeople that are vocal, the less
you're going to see theseconfigurations of the people
that are building that withstable coins and cryptocurrency

(02:30:49):
and even with dollarized Bitcoinand then, you know, the people
on the side against all of that,I hope. I really hope to see
more of that in the not sodistant future because who might
who knows how much time we haveleft? Uh, but not totally
censored internet. You know?That's,

MG (02:31:04):
I agree. Yeah. Reality.

WW (02:31:07):
Alright. Well, thanks so much for joining me today. Mark.
Really enjoyed thisconversation, probably why it
ran really long, but I reallyenjoyed it. So you know. Thanks
again. Thanks for your time.Thanks to everyone listening.
And please feel free to sharethis around and thanks to
everyone, as always thatsupports this podcast and makes
it possible. couldn't do thiswithout you and we'll catch you

(02:31:27):
on the next episode. Thanks somuch.

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