The Carbon Credit Coup with Mark Goodwin

Episode Transcript
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WW (00:18):
Hey, this is Unlimited Hangout. I'm your host Whitney
Webb, contributing editor ofUnlimited Hangout and today I'm
joined by editor in chief ofBitcoin magazine and author of
The Bitcoin Dollar, MarkGoodwin, to discuss some of our
recent collaborations over thepast few months. Those articles
specifically the most recentwhich are tokenized ink and debt
from above, both of which can befound at unlimited hangout in
Bitcoin Magazine focused on thespecifics and generalities of

(00:42):
the sweeping global effort toput everything in Yes, I mean,
everything on the global unifiedledger with unique identifiers
in order to enable the newfinancial system that will
launch in earnest well before2030 But that seems to be the
year that a lot of this stuffrotates around in this new
financial system rests on a fewpillars. Those include

(01:02):
interoperable digital ID andInternet where you're not
allowed to be anonymous. Thereisn't even the illusion of
privacy, interoperable digitalwallets that enable both public
and private sector, programmableanswer vailable money and energy
and commodities this currencyand another one being the
tokenization of real worldassets. And a key component of

(01:23):
the system involves thetokenization and securitization
of the natural world, which isconverting natural resources and
to tokenize representations ofnatural capital that can be
stored and treated on a globalnetwork of interconnected
digital wallets and exchanges.Every tree every stream reduced
to carbon and water credits tobe traded in sweeping new
markets that are underpinned bymass surveillance, voluntary and

(01:47):
name only, and imposed upon theplanet under the guise of saving
it. However, the tokenizationwon't stop there beyond natural
capital. We have social capital,we have human capital, and the
plan is to have all of it eventhe most mundane, controlled,
surveilled and made tradablethrough blockchain technology
and marketed as salvation,salvation for the planet, the

(02:07):
economy, our society. But as wewill discuss today, this
marketing is all a ruse fortheft in a coup so massive that
millions of dollars are beingspent precisely on distracting
the public from what is beingfoisted upon us until the time
that they believe it will be toolate to change it. So Mark and I
in our recent articles have beenpicking away at different pieces
of the system. And another keyunifying theme is the role of

(02:30):
debt in this new monetaryparadigm. And in efforts to
sustainably develop the world.The same groups that have used
it to rob pillage andeconomically enslave entire
countries are gearing up to dothe same, but on a much grander
scale thanks to new technology,and the erosion of any policy
protections against plunder bythe same financial criminals

(02:50):
that gave us the financialcrises caused by junk bonds,
savings and loans collapses inthe 80s, the collapse of
different currencies in the1990s, the implosion of the
collateral mortgage obligationsin 2008, I could go on the way
to defeat them as tosystematically destroy the
trappings of altruism for planetand people in which they have
cloaked themselves and revealwhat they are really doing

(03:12):
sucking us on the planet dry tofeed their planetary Ponzi
scheme. So without further ado,Hi, Mark. Thanks for joining me
today to talk about all thestuff we've gotten into
recently. How're you doing?

MG (03:24):
Very well, Whitney, thank you so much. It's great to be
here. I love unlimited hangout.It's always an honor to be here
and work with you guys. Sothanks for having me. Yeah,

WW (03:33):
absolutely. So you know, I sort of listed off a few of
these pillars of the financialsystem that we've been trying to
sort of demystify for people.And there's a lot of different
places we could go here. Butmaybe a good place to start is
what I alluded to in talkingabout the tokenization and
securitization of the naturalworld, we have this relatively

(03:56):
recent, I guess, you could sayarticle called debt from above
the carbon credit coup, that'sthe first of a two part, maybe
more serious, we'll see. So upuntil this podcast, we've only
really done one interviewtalking about it. And there's a
lot we didn't get into in thatparticular interview. But
obviously, a lot of ground wascovered. So maybe we could just

(04:17):
like sort of succinctly, ifpossible, it is a pretty long
piece, but sort of succinctlysummarize, more or less what's
going on here in the context ofthis broader new financial
system that we are trying topick apart.

MG (04:29):
Yeah, totally. I mean, I think it's like, you know, it's
pretty wild. I think the storyin general you know, it's, it
has very specific components toit. Very specific people as you
mentioned, you know, like peopledirectly in the junk bonds, you
know, scanned or like literallyhere again, you know, people in

(04:49):
the CDO cmo popping with likeLarry Fink, you know, are here
again, but I think with thiswith the debt from above piece,
you know, it really does. Youknow, it shows you the full
formation necessary to actuallykind of enable the new financial
system and all the differentcomponents that you need.
There's a component of subnational and regional

(05:12):
government, you know, alliances,there's, there's a component of
satellite, you know, Earthobservation, there's a component
of, you know, leveraging theBitcoin Blockchain to be able to
actually trade and tokenize andcreate, you know, carbon credits
directly, you know, onto Bitcointhrough our SK. And, and then of

(05:33):
course, there's like theregistries, the insurance
companies, the people that areactually accrediting these,
these carbon credits and, and,you know, kind of, you know,
allowing the trading and sellingof the tokenized versions of
these to, you know, to work inthese regional and sub national
government alliances. So, youknow, this is a really great

(05:57):
place to start, I think, intrying to explain where they
sort of want us to go with themodern, you know, the pillars
of, of the new economy, becauseit's all there everything that,
you know, you've been writingabout, for years I've been
writing about is really showingup in this, you know, it's a
terrible word, because it meansso much these days, but like in

(06:21):
this kind of conspiracy in theliteral sense. There's coalition
all these people coming togetherto build this system. All the
all the pieces are there. So Ithink it probably makes sense to
kind of break it down and lookat some of these things. It
might make sense to start withthe green Plus program. And we

(06:42):
can kind of get to cc 35, get toSatellogic, get to RFK. Yeah, do
you want to maybe start off withthe Green+ and kind of break
down? You know, why that's soimportant to this? You know,
understanding this this formation?

WW (06:58):
Sure. So, yeah, essentially, what this article is about, I
would guess, then it's aboutgreen plus, which is an acronym,
but it refers to this programthat they're attempting to
launch. sometime this week,actually, at least as far as
scaling it, they've beenpiloting it for a few years.
But, you know, watching it atscale supposed to turn out this

(07:20):
week. So essentially, what it'sattempting to do, is to have
various municipalitiesthroughout Latin America 1000s
of which have apparently signedon to, you know, sign these
these contractual obligationswith these groups that are
running green plus, which is runby this consortium of different
groups that are, you know, webreak down specifically and talk

(07:42):
about specifically in thearticle. And then those
contractual obligations areabout these localities handing
over essentially their protectedareas for to be used to produce
basically like farm carboncredits off of them. And the
idea is that they will be paidback, they will be dispersed

(08:05):
money that these carbon creditsgenerate for the purpose of, you
know, conservation and thingslike that. But specifically,
conservation has to be with anapproved partner approved by the
consortium. And the type of onesthat are approving are the ones
that are all into thisfinancialization, securitization
of, of nature, the so callednature based solutions, these
debt for nature swaps, thingslike that, that are perpetuating

(08:30):
the same thing we're talkingabout. It's not really
conserving anythingfundamentally, or it's about
decarbonizing and decarbonizinghas to be done with this
particular company that'spartnered with other members of
the consortium that's trying tobuild an intercontinental smart
grid, you know, for power likesmart meter style stuff. That's,

(08:51):
that's continent wide. So it'sreally a way of building this
technocratic system under theguise of weird, you know,
protecting the forest andconserving and decarbonizing,
you know, those are the wordsthey're using to cope with, you
know, they're actuallyfundamentally doing which is
building you know, the grid ofthis technocratic system they've
been trying to, to build for forsome time now and all part you

(09:13):
know, it's all part of this, youknow, financial system, as we've
discussed, that's built on onsurveillance, and
programmability of essentiallyeverything and allowing
everything to be tokenized andtreated, you know, essentially
as currency become tradablefinancial products, so green
pluses on just one indicator ofothers, we could point to as

(09:34):
well, of how this agenda hasadvanced relatively quickly. And
it's not just being advanced bythe left quote, unquote, because
there's a lot of right leaningpoliticians involved. And of
course, as you alluded to asecond ago, there's people from
the junk bond Scandal The 1980sin 1980s from Drexel Burnham
Lambert that are involved ingreen plus specifically are in

(09:55):
financing it, like Craig Kogut.Yeah, but there's other figures
too. sent as well, that sort ofloom over this, like Richard
Sandor, the father of carbontrading, who was a senior vice
president at Drexel, when all ofthis happened is also the father
of derivatives and financialfutures. Not only did he invent
carbon credit trading, he alsowants to make water a market in

(10:16):
the same way, you know, cleanwater, a market of the same
style, and essentially turneverything into a derivative.
Which is, which is very crazy,obviously, when you think about
it, but you know, these guyshave gotten away with so much I
don't think they really see itas crazy at all to just keep
going to the next level. And allthey really have left at this

(10:39):
point is to do it to the entireworld.

MG (10:42):
Yeah, and put it on, I think the thing that's so interesting
about this iteration of itversus all the other ones is,
you know, it's the same games,same players, same debt
explosion, dollar denomination,but this time, there's like a
technical advancement, there'ssome sort of settlement layer,
some sort of ledger, thatupholds a universal state, that

(11:02):
I think is really importantabout you know, it, it
diminishes the costs, extremely,for the people trying to kind
of, you know, do this, this debtbase game, you know, because
before, if you're using, youknow, kind of more traditional
base bonds systems, you know,you have to have, you know, you

(11:23):
know, bookmakers, you have tohave, you know, large financial
institutions on either side, youneed to have litigators, you
know, that are paid, you know,huge hourly wages, you know,
basically to uphold, and then,of course, you need governments
to kind of be, you know, theenabling environment, for these
types of like green bonds, greenfinance, junk bonds, you know,

(11:46):
these kind of speculativefinancial instruments to
actually, you know, just tosettle, you know, you need all
of these players to uphold theseinstruments with Blockchain, you
know, you can mitigate it, youcan mitigate those costs to just
a couple, in this case, directlywith our SK rootstock with this
Bitcoin sidechain, to, you know,to a couple federated members,

(12:12):
Federation members, whichessentially, is just people
picked by, you know, thisorganization that, you know,
runs the validators and thenodes, and a lot of these kind
of structures, the side chainsare sort of built, as they're
kind of decentralized in nameonly. And they're kind of, you
know, banking off of thegoodwill, you know, of the

(12:34):
distributed model of Bitcoin, Imean, that's why these are sort
of, you know, created as, youknow, they're used as side
chains, rather than, you know,maybe on like, Etherium, or, you
know, some of these other other,you know, more obviously known
centralized figures, they useBitcoin, because it has the most
kind of like sentiment behind itof being this like libertarian,

(12:55):
anti state, you know, product ofthe people this revolutionary
thing, which I think, in manyways is arguably true, of
course, but you know, also in alot of ways in the same way that
it empowers, you know, the theunbanked or whatever, you know,
it empowers criminals, itempowers Military Industrial

(13:16):
Complex agents. So like, nowwe're really starting to see,
you know, the PayPal Mafia,Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Steve
Mnuchin, Howie Lutnick of CantorFitzgerald, like all these
people really leaning into kindof hiding behind bitcoin, as
this, you know, you know,libertarian and cat movement to

(13:40):
actually, you know, basicallymake right wing carbon markets
and push people towards thisgreen finance, which, you know,
you've been writing about for along time, and a lot of these
green finance goals are, aresome of the worst of the worst
of this private public paradigm.Yeah,

WW (13:57):
so let's touch on that for a second. The whole idea of public
and private. I know we'vediscussed it a lot on some other
interviews, we've done the gettogether but I don't know if
necessarily on this podcast, butI think it's very important for
people to understand that thewhole idea you know, like so
like take Larry Fink forexample, Larry Fink was
demonized, quote unquote, and isnow facing anti woke backlash

(14:20):
because he was considered aquote unquote, woke figure for
his promotion of ESG when he wason the west Board of Trustees,
I'm not sure if he's actuallystill there or not, but he was a
big proponent of of carbonmarkets and all of this stuff.
And, um, you know, while thebacklash was happening, you
know, a year or two ago he saidsomething to the effect that you

(14:42):
people misunderstand why I dothis. It's you know, it's
because of the profits thereturns.

MG (14:49):
Yeah.

WW (14:50):
That I will get and I think a lot of people don't really
understand what the carbonmarket is. I mean, people think
it's, you know, all just climateon the right anyway, they see it
as like climate change alarmism.And these are the reasons but
no, actually a lot of people onthe quote unquote, right really
want carbon markets. And there'sa reason that it's a carbon,

(15:12):
quote unquote, market also. Andthe idea up until this point has
been to frame it as a voluntarycarbon market. But there's
obviously going to become a timewhen it ceases to be voluntary,
or it'll be voluntary in, inname only, not unlike, you know,
vaccine passports and things ofthat nature. And that's what a
lot of this other stuff is tobeyond the carbon market that is

(15:33):
going to be part of this newfinancial system, the digital
wallet, the digital ID, it'llall be this voluntary in name
only and decentralized in nameonly. And they're going to
market it to us by making itlook like a mix of public and
private players allharmoniously, you know, coming
together to make this trulydecentralized system, but

(15:55):
they're really, you know,operating under the same rules,
they have the same goals. Theyare, you know, very interlinked.
A lot of these entities, whenyou look into them, they operate
under consortiums, for example,like ID 2021, being a relatively
well known one, a promotingdigital ID that was really the
product of, you know, Bill Gatesand the Rockefeller Foundation,

(16:17):
essentially. But argues forinteroperable digital ID, let's
have a whole mix of all thesedifferent vendors and suppliers
of digital ID, but we want themto be interoperable because the
goal is to have it all beexportable to the same place. So
you get that centralization atthe next layer. But it seems
like the public facing layermakes it seem like it's not all

(16:38):
the same thing. To give theillusion of competition,

MG (16:42):
I think I think that's so funny, too, about using
Blockchain for like,decentralized ID systems. And
I'm doing air quotes, eventhough I didn't do them. Like
the it's a walled gardenacceptance, like where they are
accepted, where these, theseidentifiers actually, you know,
are useful, you know, you stillhave to have some sort of

(17:02):
interoperability with like theDMV of California, or you know,
the bar that you want to get inand show your ID to prove that
you're over 21. Yeah, sure, youcan do all this cool stuff,
where you can only show theverified credentials, you want
to show and just, you know, showthe bar, you know, the doorman
at the bar that okay, you'reover 21 Without revealing, you

(17:24):
know, normally when you givesomeone your license, right to
get into a bar, you tell themhow tall you are, you tell them
what color your eyes are, youtell them if you have to wear,
you know, glasses to drive, youtell them your home address, you
know, there's a lot of likedata, you're just giving up to
some random stranger to get intoa bar just to be able to prove
or 21 Digital ideas, you know,have this this like, selling

(17:45):
point of like, well, just theVerify credentials you want to
show, it's like, well, you stillhave to have some sort of
interoperability with somecentralized governance to create
that. So the DMV, or the USgovernment Passport System, or,
you know, some sort of Interpolor some, you know, there has to
be some sort of centralizedwalled garden for these

(18:09):
decentralized blockchain tokenidentifiers to work. You know,
it's, it's the idea of kind ofdecentralizing ID is kind of so
ridiculous, when the whole pointof it of ID, what even is ID,
you know, like, there has to bethis sort of, it's, it's useless
in on its own, it has to be, youknow, you know, based on, you

(18:33):
know, you know, some sort ofreputation, which requires some
sort of other, you know,consortium of people. So there's
so much just white, or I say,white washing, but you know,
decentralized washing, and a lotof these projects that just
don't really make a ton ofsense. And as Fink says, you
know, it's about profits overeverything. Well, the only thing

(18:58):
that's more important to thesepeople in these these groups of
control than profits are like,is the data that allows them to,
to force the control. So yes,there's profits, which is a big
part for a lot of these people,of course, then the other side
of it is the all the data thatit enables, and all the
surveillance and, you know,that's what these systems really

(19:19):
are, you know, they'redatabases, that's what Bitcoin
is, it's a database, that's whatall these side chains are.
They're, they're peggeddatabases to Bitcoin that
settles that state, to Bitcoin.So it's like this really amazing
phase shift dialectic wherethey're pushing it as this, you
know, totally like freedombringing a wonderful thing. You

(19:42):
know, because we control thenode and we control the data.
But in reality, you know, it'screating a whole a whole public
open database where anybody canaccess this stuff. And so now
we're seeing them you know, usethe blockchain I think, really,
the majority Uh, bitcoins life,you know, you haven't really

(20:02):
seen a ton of obvious, privatepublic moves. It's really they
kind of just kind of let it growand let it be its own thing. And
now we're in a new paradigm. Youknow, we're in a post ETF,
Blackrock world or Blackrockhas, you know, what it's like
400,000 Bitcoin now orsomething. I mean, it's just
absurd. The US government has,like a million Bitcoin with

(20:25):
between the DOJ between, youknow, private companies, you
know, buying up a ton ofBitcoin, you know, under, you
know, the jurisdictional arm ofthe US government. You know,
this idea that, you know, we'resort of that it's this anti
state thing, it's just reallynot true. And then you look at a
green plus, and you're startingto see this, not only is it, you

(20:46):
know, optimized for the dollarrisers, now, it's being spread
out, you know, through Centraland South America through, you
know, I think cc 35 is namedthat because of the 35 capital
cities, right? So we're seeing,like the sub regional national
governments agreeing to, youknow, to participate in this
carbon market that literallyinvolves Earth observation data

(21:11):
from Steve Mnuchin. And GeneralDunford, and, you know, the
richest man in Argentina, MarcosGalperin, and we're seeing, you
know, the, the, the dollar eyes,like the dollar rising,
basically, you know, move in anduse, you know, the blockchain as

(21:31):
as as an enabling environment tolike create a really scary
surveillance mechanism, not justnonprofits about surveillance.

WW (21:41):
So I think we should talk on the surveillance aspect of green
plus, because when I was sort ofgiving a bird's eye overview of
the article, I didn't reallytalk about Satellogic at all,
which is the satellite firmreally underpinning it all and
what actually led us to find thegreen Plus program in the first
place, because it's a it's avery spooky company. And I think

(22:04):
it also speaks to the importancelike why the mass surveillance
agenda is so important to thesepeople from the financial
perspective, because it givesthem extreme predictability over
markets, and is risk reduction,among other things, but we can
get into that in a second. SoSatellogic is the company that's
underpinning a lot of this greenplus stuff, they do the

(22:27):
satellite surveillance, that's,you know, key to this whole new
carbon market model they want touse. And really quick before
going deep into Satellogic, Iguess, it's worth mentioning how
that new model is going to be.So up until this point, the
voluntary carbon market, thecurrent state of carbon markets
that we're in, have had a lot ofproblems with adoption. And a

(22:50):
lot of people on the left thatare worried about climate
change, environmental groupshave been very critical, not
just you know, people on theright, for example, that don't
want anything to do with it atall, but you have people on the
left that criticize it for beingvery grift, prone, and fraud
prone, which it has been I mean,there's been numerous cases

(23:13):
where the main carbon creditscertifiers or other entities
that are issuing carbon creditsare involved in creating them in
some capacity have been createdcompletely fraudulent credits,
that, you know, there's beenestimates that, you know, over
90% of the carbon credits in theexisting voluntary carbon
markets are meaningless, meaningthey don't actually offset

(23:36):
carbon or reduce carbon in anysignificant way. You know, it's
essentially just a new marketbeing created, under you know,
certain metrics, but it doesn'teven meet the metrics. It says
it's meeting and we're told wehave to do this to save the
planet, but it doesn't actuallydo anything to save the planet
under its own metrics forexisting. It's very insane. So

(23:58):
the way they're trying to getaround this isn't to stop the
fraud and the grift or actuallymake a solution that works under
their own metrics, right?Instead, they want to ensure
carbon credits and create a newmarket for the insurance
industry. So there's been allthese different companies that
have popped up, includingexisting insurance companies as

(24:21):
well, obviously getting in onthis. And there, a lot of the
ways they're responding to thisis by making new insurance
products, one class of them arecalled parametric insurance
products. And these are beingmarketed for climate unexpected
events, things like you know,climate change related events,
natural disasters, but alsopandemics for example, things

(24:43):
like that. And the idea is, youknow, having it payout at a
specific point. And so a lot ofthe the insurance angle of this
for carbon credits moving intothat paradigm of carbon credits
it rests heavily on surveillingthe area that the carbon credit
is being issued from the treesare essential, right, right. So
you Yeah, so Satellogic isproviding that service and as

(25:06):
surveilling all of thelocalities that have signed on
to this, but the problem is thesatellite company. Our career is
run by career US militarycontractors, they're teamed up
with SpaceX, and Palantir, whichare the biggest contractors,
arguably, in terms of theirsignificance and importance to
the intelligence community andto Space Force, which is the,

(25:28):
you know, essentially what theytried to do in the Reagan
administration, the militarymilitarization of space. Now
we're having that advancingdrastically, and being linked up
with Latin Americanmunicipalities through these
contracts that they're signingunder the guise of green plus
their, you know, Space Force,people are essentially getting a

(25:50):
foot in the door this way.Indirectly, but we know how
these guys work. And they, ifthey can get in, they'll get in,
you know. So let's, I guess,talk a little bit about
Satellogic, who's on the board,you mentioned a few names, but
maybe we should spell it out alittle more in their significance.

MG (26:09):
I also just want to say just to the point of the parametric
insurance stuff, and a lot ofthis, like kind of the fraud of,
you know, the carbon marketGambit so far, I think it's
really important also to talkabout, like, why a Satellogic is
important in this new paradigm,and why that blockchain is
important in this new paradigm.And it has to do with

(26:30):
settlement. Blockchain is iswonderful in when you know, when
you're using actual Bitcoin,because the settlement is final.
And there's no way to actuallylike refund a payment without
just generating a new one. Youcan't clawback a payment when
you're using Bitcoin, which isreally important for these types
of Grifs. You know, because thegovernment can't say, oh, hey,

(26:51):
you know, you know, you have ahuge fine, you broke the law,
you need to do, you know, youneed to give this money back, it
was stolen, it was taken, youknow, no court can basically
say, Hey, we're seizing yourfunds, because it was gathered,
you know, illicitly, or, or, youknow, you took advantage of
them, there's no litigator, thatcan that can, you know, revoke a

(27:13):
blockchain transaction. And thenthe other aspect of it, too, is
that, you know, they're calledsmart contracts. But they're
really dumb. They're super dumb,and they only run off of the
data that's actually inputtedinto them. So a company like
Satellogic, if you're trying tocreate these, like really fancy
green bonds that only pay outcoupons, you know, based on, you

(27:34):
know, a reduction of agreenhouse gas or, you know,
some other, you know, metricright, parametric, some other
metric that you know, that thebond issuers agree upon using a
smart contract, you know, thedata has to actually be fed into
the contract, otherwise, itwon't, it won't settle. So,
again, this is a little bit likewhat you instar talked about on

(27:55):
your AI podcast that, you know,perhaps some of this is just,
you know, an ability to create aman behind the curtain and just
blame Oh, well, hey, it's, it'sthe smart train. It's the smart
contract. It's the blockchain,you know, but really, it's like
the federated, you know, sevenguys in a room that agree on it.
Right. So there's a little bitof that being played into here.

(28:17):
And I think that's, that'simportant to understand that,
yes, I do think Satellogic doeshave these capabilities. I do
think, you know, this idea ofremapping the planet, high
frequency, high resolution, youknow, is a real fear that we
should have, but the way thatthey're framing it, you know, is
for this smart contract, youknow, feeding of data into these

(28:38):
green bonds into these carboncredit market trading. So that's
sort of why Satellogic playssuch an important role in this
municipalities, regionalgovernment agreements, it's
because in order to actuallyuphold a blockchain carbon
credit market, you know, youneed a lot of data. So that's
sort of the primer for this. Butyeah, let's get into this board,

(28:59):
because it's totally insane.Yeah, I don't know if you want
to start to go through it. Butyou know, we'll start right off
at the top. You know, SteveMnuchin is the chairman. And
that's, I think, how we foundout about this, I believe you
were going through Steve Mnuchinstuff, right? Is that real

WW (29:17):
VC firm, right, that he made after leaving the Trump
administration? Yeah, I waslooking at their investments
because the the first investmentthey made is, is a company that
I've I've written about a fewtimes. I did a whole series on
them actually, in early 2020. Oncalled Cyber reason, and I
mentioned them on theinterviews. Probably a few of

(29:39):
the ones I did last year,specifically because it the
reason I got interested in cyberreason was because they
essentially admit to being anIsraeli intelligence front
company, and they were sentsimulating with DHS and US
police departments and differentintelligence agencies. The cyber
attack essentially conducted onUS election elections like gets

(30:02):
the election canceled andmartial law declared. And
obviously, because we're anelection year that became a
renewed interest. But it I thinkit's very interesting that
Mnuchin leaves service in the USgovernment and then goes and
invest right away in an Israelifront company. And then he's
also at the same time attemptingto recruit the head of Mossad,

(30:25):
Yossi Cohen, to his, his new VCfirm. And he's there with also
the Trump's ambassador toIsrael, David Friedman, who was
like very admittedly, just asyou know, immersed in the
politics of Israel as the UnitedStates in a way that's very
uncommon for ambassadors to bein was criticized as being more
and more interested, you know,more interested in in Israeli

(30:48):
political interest thanadvocating for US interests, I
guess, should be said, which isimportant, which isn't that
unusual, I guess, in terms of usis real politic or whatever, but
it is kind of, you know, ironic,considering the whole America
first mantra of the Trumpadministration. So Joseph
Dunford is another person on theSatellogic board, he was head of

(31:11):
the Joint Chiefs of Staff or,you know, the different branches
of the military. under the Trumpadministration. Of course,
that's when SpaceForce was made.And he was recruited to a many
Chin's VC firm, after the Trumpadministration as well. And they
are both involved withcybereason at the board level as
well. So they're simultaneouslyon the board of this Israeli

(31:35):
intelligence front company asthey are with Satellogic.

MG (31:39):
Yeah, the Trump administration is one of the
greatest examples of thisprivate public, you know,
complete dissolving of thedelineation between the two. I
think specifically with thesetwo guys, it's it's incredible.
But, you know, Mnuchin was the,you know, obviously a one West
partner who was a huge profiteerin the 2008 crisis, when he's,

(32:01):
you know, leading the Treasury,he brings in Brian Brooks, who
was the former VP of Coinbase,to run the Office of the
Comptroller of the Currency, whowas the first guy to put in a
law that says that banks canhold crypto assets and that
banks can participate in stablecoin creation. Also another
great point, right, but on thelast days of Trump's

(32:24):
administration, he pardonedMichael Milken, who, you know,
Craig Kogut was basically thethe head legal advisor for
during that whole junk bondscandal. The reason why I bring
up the you know, this whole, youknow, Trump administration stuff
with the stable coins and theBrian Brooke. Conversation is,
you know, as we get to our thirdmember here on the board, you

(32:48):
know, it's our boy, Howie,Howard Lutnick, who is the
Chairman and CEO of CantorFitzgerald, which is the group
that holds all of the USTreasuries for tether, which is
the largest stable coin providerand issuer in the world, which
has just under $110 billionworth of stable coins, and are
one of the biggest purchasespurchasers of US Treasuries,

(33:11):
certainly over the last 18months, I mean, just gobbling
them up. And the governmentliterally needs people to buy
these things, to service theirdebt, to service their budget.
So you're like already beginningbefore we even like get into the
rest of them get into, you know,like a lot of stuff about
Satellogic. You know, you'rejust looking at the first three

(33:35):
people listed on the board. Andyou're already seeing this
crazy, you know, connection withthe public sector in a very
important way, specifically withthe Trump administration, which
again, we can connect to thinkwho manages his money before
him. I mean, there's so manythings you can look at here, but

(33:55):
like very directly, you know,some of the most important
players in the private publicdomain of, you know, private
capital creation, and stablecoins and blockchain integration
with the public private sectorare apparent here on this board
of a satellite company.

WW (34:13):
So yeah, so why are they interested in a satellite
company? Right, you know, and Ithink green plus makes it pretty
clear that there's a bigfinancial play to be had here.
It's not just aboutsurveillance, and actually
something Satellogic says in itsown marketing material, is that
historically, a lot of thesesatellites have been used by
militaries, intelligenceagencies and governments. They

(34:36):
sell satellites as a service tocommercial entities as well.
they market it to specificallybanks, insurance companies, all
sorts of stuff, because theywant to, as they say,
democratize surveillance, right.But that's not really like, I
mean, that's, I think, kind of amisuse of the word democratizing
the way most people think about the

MG (34:55):
word democratizes never used appropriately. It's always used
as he I think that's an that'ssomething that these schools do.
It's a total inversion oflanguage. This banking the
unbanked thing, you know, wetalked about it, I think the
first time we ever we evertalked on a pod and I mean, just
this idea of you know, it'sreally like kind of crypto

(35:15):
colonialism, you know, but it'sdone under this this altruistic.
You know, greenwash whitewash,whatever you want to say. And
these guys are doing it again,you know, their, their, their
line is observation ispreservation. It's like,
preservation for what? For, youknow, the people that profiteer
in and made billions andbillions, if not trillions of

(35:36):
dollars on Yeah, you know, thesethese junk bonds exploding on
the 2008 mortgages exploding onthe COVID stimulus policy. I
mean, we haven't even talkedabout it going public and can't
or running the SPAC for them,and JP Morgan being the Special
Advisor for Satellogic. I mean,there's just the goals are, are
all abound. But let's let'scontinue running through the there's

WW (35:59):
a lot to say, but I don't I don't know if we need to spend
time on every board member. Ithink our first four are. But I
do want to say before we go anyfarther. So Satellogic has
teamed up with Palantir, they'veput Palantir in space. Palantir
is Peter Thiel company, ofcourse, him being one of the co
founders of PayPal, the otherone being Elon Musk, which new

(36:21):
Purdue who, you know, runsSpaceX. And SpaceX is also
partnered with Satellogic. Andwe have this broader network,
which we're going to be talkingabout more in our next piece of
this debt from above series, youknow, often referred to as the
Pay Pal mafia, but it'sessentially a specific group of
Silicon Valley billionaires thatopenly work together. They're

(36:43):
pretty much an open Cabal, andthey like, like the term mafia.

MG (36:47):
They did a photo shoot. Elon Musk was famously not there. But
they literally did a photoshoot, I think for Forbes. I
might be wrong, maybe fortune.But they all got together. And
you know, it was like sopranosera, you know, and they all got
together and dressed up. Yeah,you know, Goodfellas style, just
totally. Just so ridiculous.Yeah, but really leaning into

(37:11):
it. Yeah, they like the mafiaangle. It's just, it's

WW (37:13):
absurd. Well, because they are that and yeah, and so these
particular guys are working withthis other organization that we
mentioned a little bit in thefirst piece, and we'll be
talking about more than thesecond piece that's called
Endeavor. And Endeavor isbasically this effort. It's sort
of like a startup incubator. Andthere's a lot of these in

(37:35):
Silicon Valley land, but thisone isn't really based in
Silicon Valley. And it's muchbigger than just Silicon Valley.
And it has a lot of WorldEconomic Forum affiliations.
It's chaired by Edgar BronfmanJr. and people that are familiar
with my work. Specifically, mybook will know all about the
Bronfman family, so no need todwell there, but also Reed

(37:57):
Hoffman, who is co founder ofLinkedIn, a member of the Pay
Pal mafia and also the person inSilicon Valley with the closest
relationship of the mall toJeffrey Epstein is one of the
key players here. And he is onon the board of Endeavor Global
with Edgar Bronfman Jr. But he'salso very involved with these.
The Argentina branch ofEndeavor, of which Satellogic is

(38:20):
part but a lot of these otherentities that we'll be talking
about more are there too. Andone of the big the early
earliest success story ofEndeavor and creating a company
is Mercado Libre, which isessentially like the Amazon of
Latin America, in the samemonopolistic sense of Amazon
today. That is exactly it's avery good analog to what Mercado

(38:42):
Libre has become, and it wascreated by this particular group
Endeavor, but the guy in chargeright is Marcos Galperin, who's
become the richest man inArgentina as a result and he is
the person on Satellogic's boardafter Mnuchin Dunford and
Lutnick so you have thisparticular guy and why is he
important in the context of whatof these other you know three

(39:05):
men that we've already talkedabout that are on the board? I'd
like to drill down on that for asecond because Mercado Libre is
not just a marketplace it'sessentially becoming a bank, a
digital bank and the maindigital bank for people that are
being economically pillagedright now in places like
Argentina, but you know, alsoothers but Argentina is probably

(39:27):
the one that's like most acuteeconomically right now. And
people are being forced to notuse the Argentinian peso because
it's, you know, so volatile andbeen so heavily devalued. And so
they're the biggest adopters inthe world right now of stable
coins and other cryptocurrenciesand you know, Mercado Libre
through Mercado Pago through itsrelationships with other groups

(39:51):
in the area, like or companiesin the area that are the the
main infrastructure for thismarket there. Ripio Mercado
Bitcoin and Brazil, they'reessentially running the lion's
share of the rails on which thisparallel economy that's
intentionally being fed by, youknow, the the heavy devaluation
of the Argentinian Peso andJavier malaise, quote unquote

(40:13):
economic shock therapy in thecountry being forced to onboard
to these systems and Argentinais essentially becoming the
economic beta test for a lot ofthe stuff that they want to roll
out. And in referring to some ofthose pillars that I set off in
the introduction, the idea ofhaving commodities and energy as
currency. Yes, Argentina isessentially becoming ground zero

(40:37):
for that. And there's an effortto make stable coins that are
pegged to commodities,specifically Argentinian grain
exports, and that has alreadyadvanced considerably through a
company called Agra tokensbacked by Visa. And you have a
significant amount now offarmers in Argentina, who are
not interacting with the peso atall. They're interacting with

(40:59):
these stable coins that they'retrading over, you know, rails
that either run by, you know,funded by Visa or affiliated
with Mercado Pago or MercadoLibre in some capacity. So when
you take that combined with, youknow, you have the tether,
custodian guy there, theTreasury guy and the guy that
literally ran the TreasuryDepartment in the US on the same

(41:21):
board of the satellite companytrying to impose a carbon mark
on a lot in Latin America. It'scrazy stuff. Oh, yeah.

MG (41:29):
100% I think there's a lot to talk about there with Mercado
Libre, but also, you know, just,you know, you mentioned this
sort of commodity back stablecoin play and kind of this, you
know, using grains and, youknow, growth assets in the
literal sense things that yougrow, again, maybe a lesser
important board member, but youdo have Bradley Halverson, who
is the former group president ofCaterpillar, which is one of the

(41:51):
biggest agricultureinfrastructure, and machinists
companies in the world, alsoconveniently on the board, which
is, which is sort ofinteresting. But yeah, I think
Mercado Libre is, is reallyfascinating, because I think
especially you alluded to thePayPal Mafia, right. And I think
one of the things that peoplereally forget about PayPal is

(42:13):
where it got its market sharefrom and where it really
captured so much was throughits, you know, collaboration
with eBay. And for eBay to workas the kind of marketplace that
it was being online. You know,you needed an ability to protect

(42:34):
buyers, from people that wereselling fraudulent goods on
eBay, or that were, you know,you needed a strong consumer
protection for the buyer. And soeBay offered that in a way that
was kind of unprecedented, offeran online business, even more so
than a Visa or MasterCard, or anACH or any sort of wire

(42:59):
transfer. So they combined BuyerProtection with instant
settlement. And that was sort ofthe, you know, the killer app
that, you know, allowed peopleto really take what, you know,
the huge lion's share ofsettlement was because of this
market. And so you really neededeBay to have PayPal take off

(43:22):
now, PayPal was far beyond, youknow, just being eBays, you
know, settlement tool. But Ithink that's really important
and discussing, you know, theproliferation of PayPal was was
Pierre Omidyar and eBay and youknow, a lot of these,

WW (43:39):
you know, the Omidyar now owns PayPal. Exactly.

MG (43:42):
Right. Fans get that. So we're seeing Mercado Libre sort
of arrive as not just the Amazonbut also you know, has a bit of
that eBay vibe as well. So the,the decision of the market maker
of a Marcos Galperin that youknow is has you know, billions
of you know, I'm not suredirectly yet if Mercado Libre

(44:03):
has a billion users but you knowcertainly hundreds of millions
you know, throughout LatinAmerica throughout Central and
South America and you know, moreor less at the flip of a switch
you know, they can actualize youknow really quickly right like
we saw Venmo which is a PayPalproduct now, integrate it
basically in the back end, PayPal stable coin. Now the you

(44:27):
know, the hundreds of millionsof people that use Venmo and now
have access to a stable cointhat's operated by Paxos because
of a flip of a switch of a youknow, controlled group of people
now that the entire market hasaccess to the stable coin they
now have access to BitcoinAetherium whatever, all the
other things. So, you know,there is sort of this there's a

(44:47):
need for a market to actualizethese, you know, if they if
someone wants to circumnavigatethe state's power to print
money, and and that's sort ofseemingly what a lot of these
people now jumping, burntjumping from the Burning ship
that is the US dollar system andthe US government now buried in
over $33 trillion of debt youknow they're jumping from the

(45:08):
burning ship the rats areleaving and swimming away you
know what where do they want togo next they want to go to you
know, basically you know statefree money that uses some sort
of commodity backed thing whichyou know in this case you know,
is that kind of wheat grain realand assets and now they need to

(45:30):
market to to great to getvelocity and liquidity for so
Mercado Libre plays a reallyinteresting role. Again, they
haven't really done anythingyet. They've integrated some
some blockchain stuff they'vethey've they've done some
messing around with stablecoins, but nothing at a super
fast level.

WW (45:46):
will sure but they're very intimately tied up with PayPal,
and PayPal has their stable coinright. And so I think it's
pretty clear that as Argentina,in particular as sort of like
this testbed for this stuffadvances that way. And with
Mercado Libre through MercadoPago being like one of the main
ways that people in Argentinainteract with the crypto

(46:08):
ecosystem. I mean, you know, asthe as the issues with the
Argentinian peso deepen, it'snot going to get better under
Milei, the peso issue, they'regoing to onboard people on to
these other currencies, I thinkit's pretty clear that the
infrastructure for that, Tonynow, that's what they plan to
you.

MG (46:27):
Exactly, that's, that's the thing that, you know, and that
was a big part of the book thatI wrote the Bitcoin dollar
that's about its controlling theon and the off ramps of the
infrastructure of adecentralized thing, then it
then it's, it kind of ceases tobe, you know, very, very
decentralized or very useful asa decentralized thing. You know,
if you control all the on andoff ramps of Bitcoin, to be

(46:48):
dollar denominated, which theybasically have done and creating
no your customer AML you know,anti money laundering, you know,
kind of systems and all theexchanges that have any sort of
meaningful volume, you know, youcreate a system where, you know,
the controlling, you know,elites basically get to, you
know, kind of utilize Bitcoin,you know, to perpetuate the

(47:12):
dollar system, right. So MercadoLibre is now kind of propping up
as the market to basically, youknow, bring blockchain and there
in these tokenized assets to theglobal south to South America.
So it plays an incrediblyimportant part to actually
actualize all this stuff, youneed users you need to market
because this these dollardenomination things, these

(47:33):
tokenized credits these likethey don't work unless people
actually are there and haveaccess to them and can use them.
So I think that there's it's nota it's not a surprise, it seems
so crazy to be like, why would aagriculture company machinists
guy from Caterpillar, a mark,eBay market guy, a treasury
holding Investment Company,saddle or a job board general?

(47:57):
And an SEC, or former Secretaryof the Treasury? Like, why would
they all come together and forma company? I mean, it seems kind
of crazy. Until you actuallylook at the mechanisms they Oh,
wow, they these are all theessential pillars to create this
right? Well,

WW (48:10):
to be fair, they didn't form Satellogic. They're on the board
and the people but the peoplethat formed it, these are the
people they want on their board.And that's important when we
consider that the people thatmade Satellogic, Emiliano
Kargieman and what's his nameGerardo Richarte, I think
something like that CTO? Um,yeah, they previously had a

(48:32):
company called core securitytechnologies before creating
Satellogic and that was acontractor to DHS to DARPA, you
know, intelligence in USintelligence and US military
agencies. They're based out ofArgentina. But how much of an
Argentinian company are theyreally and Satellogic actually
relocated from South America tothe United States in search of

(48:53):
US government contracts and todeepen their space X
partnership, specifically, withSpaceX, having been noted noted
in the Wall Street Journal andother places in recent months
for intent, you know, deepeningits connections to US
intelligence. And it was alreadythe main contractor for Space
Force, which is part of themilitary, but Space Force is

(49:14):
also an intelligence agency. Andevery intelligence agency uses
Palantir, from Peter Thiel, andPalantir, as I've written about
before, was created to be theprivatized version of the DARPA
program total informationawareness, which is literally
about surveilling the entireplanet, from space to like, the
smallest level technologicallypossible. And using running that

(49:37):
through things like predictiveanalytics to predict events
before they happen, andpolluting predict pandemics
before they happen. And a lot ofthat rhetoric was around during
COVID. And of course, Palantiris managing all of the COVID
data for HHS and the UnitedKingdom. But we've also heard it
for terror attacks. So just theostensible reason that total

(49:58):
information awareness waslaunched. And then when it was
about to be shut down, theytried to revive it by renaming
it terrorist InformationAwareness. But that's also what
you know, Palantir has gotteninto and they do predictive
policing, predicting crimebefore it happens at the US
level and all of that. Andactually, during the Trump

(50:19):
administration, there was a bigeffort to prevent mass shootings
before they happen by predicteddoing predictive analytics on
American social media posts.That was the Trump
administration's idea. And BillBarr, Attorney General under
Trump legalized pre crime. So wehave to keep in mind here that
both sides of the politicaldivide are creating this system

(50:41):
and backing this system, andcarbon markets ESG it's not just
a quote unquote, Democrat thing,all these guys are getting in
it. And they're using eitherside of the political divide,
whichever one will stick to getthe system in place, you know
that the party is irrelevant,they all are taking you to the
same place at the end of theday. And I think that's

(51:02):
something that's um, some of myrecent reporting on the effort
to create the biometric smartwall on the US Mexico border.
That's been like the Democratsresponse to the quote unquote,
building the wall under Trumpand now they're all agreeing,
including Trump himself, thatthat's the wall that needs to
happen. But it's the exact samething that's being implemented

(51:25):
essentially in lockstep all overthe world as far as biometric
Entry Exit programs go and it'spart of the Sustainable
Development Goals un plan, whichwas written by bankers,
essentially. Yeah, so I mean, it's

MG (51:37):
the same

WW (51:39):
theory. Exactly.

MG (51:40):
Nailed it. Yeah, it's the same way that the red and blue
paradigm is, is pretty useless.false dichotomy. The private
public is kind of becoming thisfalse dichotomy as well. And I
think you can see that veryclearly in the core security
technology. You know, yes, theywere NSA, Homeland Security,

(52:02):
NASA, DARPA, you know, clients,but they were also apple and
like Cisco and Lockheed Martin.And then I think also to, you
know, just to get just toconnect this point a little bit
more. They were also anEndeavor, and Trump, an
entrepreneur from the EndeavourFoundation. And which, you know,

(52:23):
there were some interestingconnections there with Eduardo
el Steen, who was the presidentof Endeavor, Argentina, who is a
very ghoulish man, maybe we canget into later. But then also
cargo women in between coresecurities and Satellogic also
did a venture called a konkolaventures with credit Kogut.

(52:45):
Again, the Milken Drexel guy whodid Pegasus Pegasus capital, in
their venture ended up being amember of the Special Projects
group at the World Bank, againto kind of get into this private
public bullshit. And then COVIDPEGASE capital is a huge founder
of CC 35. funder. Yeah, yeah,yeah, sorry. Yeah. Huge funder

(53:08):
of CC 35. Yeah, I

WW (53:09):
mean, Craig CO gets whole thing is that he's rebranded as
a green finance guy. And a lotof these guys have done that
too, after they've left theircareers and criminal banking.
Mark Carney being a really goodexample. I mean, he's like the
UN Envoy for Climate Finance.The fact that the UN would pick
someone like Mark Carney to doclimate finance is like should
be the biggest indicator of theworld that the UN is the

(53:31):
enabling environment for globalgrift that is what it has
become. Mark Carney is the guythat like covered up drugs, the
laundering of money and the billlike a millions and millions of
dollars for drug cartels thatHSBC was doing he like helped
cover that up, has just been apoint man for the banking

(53:53):
cartel, his entire career, headof the Central Bank of England
of Canada. And just one of theworst, for sure. And he's the
guy that's, you know, authoringand helping plan all of the UN's
climate finance objectives,which we're told that those
climate finance objectives andprograms and whatever that he

(54:14):
and his affiliate MikeBloomberg, the billionaire are
making under the auspices of theUN, this is the only way to save
the planet. Because using anyother sort of, you know,
dialectics no one's going to buyin or onboard to this thing at
all. We literally have to betold that it's like our
salvation from complete doom anddestruction, to start

(54:36):
participating in their marketthat they have designed to be
rigged in their favor, ofcourse, but framed as saving the
planet but really it's allowingthem to, you know, gobble up the
planet under the guise of savingit. Yeah,

MG (54:54):
this this is such a good I think that the the hiding behind
privates After a public sectorlike that, that that horseshit
here at one of the things that'sso important about why
Satellogic was set up whyPalantir is set up, is because
when you have strictly publicsector, businesses, public
sector funded businesses, whichthey are, you know, so many of

(55:15):
these things aren't really thepublic sector is the exact same,
it is just corporations, theyjust there's different
restrictions on what they cando, and how they can, you know,
who they can actually work withwhose data they can sell. So it
actually makes a lot of sense,when you look at the
restrictions of, you know, Idon't know the Bill of Rights,

(55:35):
what that actually restrictsgovernment's from doing, you
know, it makes sense that, youknow, these ghouls would
basically move into the privatesector and why Satellogic would
move into the private sector,featuring all of these former
public sector, you know,veterans, that's quite literally
veterans in Dunford case. Andit's because, you know, in the

(55:56):
same way that we've talked aboutCentral Bank, digital
currencies, sort of being thisred herring, because the public
sector has a lot morerestrictions on what you can do
with user data, who you canblacklist the private sector,
you know, there's there's verylittle that the private sector
has restrictions on, but whatthey can do with customer data,

(56:17):
who they can observe, and allthis, you know, and that's why
we're seeing a push for privatesector stable coins, rather than
public sector issued, you know,dollar tokens, because it just
gives them so much more, youknow, ability to do things and
that's, you know, we were seeingthat in in Satellogic. And
seeing that wisdom of theirpartners, there's the other, you

(56:39):
know, satellite company or kindof laser satellite
infrastructure builder, it'salso Endeavor funded fancy
enough, but that sky loom that,you know, has worked with, you
know, building commercial andmilitary satellites for the
Pentagon space developmentagency. So andeavor is funded
them Satellogic is working withthem. Satellogic is working with

(56:59):
Amazon Web Services, which, youknow, to just stream basically
the 50 gigabytes of data thatthe satellites need, you know,
back to Earth. You know, inAmazon Web Services, of course,
is one of the CIA contractorsalong with like Oracle, and, you
know, a couple, a couple othergroups that have gotten these
huge these huge, you know,public sector contracts, but

(57:21):
their private

WW (57:22):
Oracle is the CIA.

MG (57:24):
Right? Well, the other so was Palantir. So we're all sure
yes, right.

WW (57:29):
Yeah. But they're framed as not being that but exactly.
Oracle was project, Oracle, theCIA, and Larry Ellison went from
that to making Oracle, thecompany that is a contractor for
the CIA, and doing the same typeof stuff that project oracle at
the CIA was set up to do, right.And then, you know, Google has
early CIA funding in thebeginning and Palantir, etc,

(57:51):
etc. And we see them as theseprivate companies. And there's
been this whole rhetoric that'sbeen put out there in recent
years, specifically, when itcomes to issues of like social
media censorship, to treat theseprivate companies is, you know,
entirely separate from thegovernment, which is not the
case at all. And they've beenit's been very useful to them

(58:14):
for a variety of reasons oftrying to like rein them in for
certain things, they get introuble. They go before
Congress, people say, Oh, thepublic sector needs to do more,
but our hands are tied theirprivate companies will really,
you know, again, the publicprivate division at this point
is completely meaningless. Andthey use it as another divide
and conquer, you know, tool, getpeople mad at the public sector

(58:36):
say the private sector is theanswer. Get people mad at the
private sector, see, say thepublic sector is the answer and
ping pong people around justlike the ping pong people,
between Democrat and Republican.I mean, they're fundamentally
related, right? BecauseDemocrats are the ones that are
like, stronger public sector andthe Republicans are stronger
private sector, it's all part ofthe same ping pong. You know,

(58:56):
having people distracted fromwhat's actually going on all of
the time, but essentially, thepublic and private is fused. If
there's a unit party, I guessyou could say there's a unit
economy. I don't know.

MG (59:07):
Wow,

WW (59:08):
right. You know,

MG (59:08):
that's a good phrase. I haven't heard that one before.
And that's nice.

WW (59:11):
Well, I don't know, it's the same kind of idea, right? If
it's one political party, thepublic and private sector, it's
one sector

MG (59:18):
totally and that same with the you know, hey, let's take it
one step further. It's same withthe multipolarity angle right? I
mean, this idea that you know,that there's these you know,
competing huge economies youknow, that that have these
polls, they in Russia and Chinaand the West and, or, you know,
you know, Brazil you know, it'sit's

WW (59:40):
there has to be the illusion of competition, right? Like,
that's why they need it to looklike like with digital IDs and
digital wallets and whateverthey need to look like there's
all these different vendorscompeting for your business,
right? But really, it's all thesame digital ID digital wallet,
slavery system, and they need tomake it look like nation states.
are competing but they all agreeabout the sustainable

(01:00:02):
development goals written bybankers or COVID. Policy
financial paradigm? Well,exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's all
part of the same thing.Fundamentally, there's these
global policy pushes on whichevery nation agrees, not unlike
how both political parties inthe US agree, essentially the
same things on foreign wars andIsrael and tat, you know,

(01:00:24):
certain things about taxes. And,you know, I mean, the, the
actual differences arerelatively meaningless, and
largely based in the in theculture war, right. Yeah. And
so, yeah, and so, to have it go,you know, beyond that, I mean,
they want to, they'reentertaining us, essentially,
they're distracting us from whatthey're actually building, and

(01:00:46):
what they're actuallyconstructing. And they're hiding
behind the guise of this greatpower competition at various
levels. And also, behind thisveil of altruism. And I think
that's particularly interestingin the context of the PayPal
Mafia, and also, you know, thecrypto space. So like when FTX
collapse, a lot of people,including myself, looked at Sam

(01:01:09):
bank, Ben freedom, hisinvolvement with so called
Effective Altruism. And that'ssort of the philosophical veneer
that a lot of these SiliconValley billionaires hide behind.
But it's really a veneer. It'snot really about altruism, in
any sort of actual sense. It's,it's sort of like an elitism
that's framed as altruism. And,you know, a lot of the stuff

(01:01:32):
coming out of the UN is alsoframed in altruism, altruistic
terms, we're doing this for thegood of the planet, we're, you
know, in doing this to save theplanet, and we're doing this for
the poor, but they beta test allthese control systems on the
poorest and the most vulnerableand have done so repeatedly. And
help systematize their thisdisenfranchise them being
disenfranchised by powerfulprivate interests that are

(01:01:54):
funding the un un is not apublic sector thing. It is a
public private thing. And it isbeing run by people like Mark
Carney and Michael Bloombergright now. And those people are
not do not care about theunderprivileged and the poor. I
mean, it's just absurd to thinkthat they

MG (01:02:10):
weren't. It's like, it's like, we got to we got to bank
the unbanked. It's like, well,who didn't bank them in the
first place? You know,

WW (01:02:16):
like, now that we have this global slavery system, we want
to forcibly include everyone inlet's include the unbanked Yeah,

MG (01:02:25):
you're welcome now, like, please join us now that we need
a place to shove $34 trillion ofdebt now that we need the whole
world? Yeah, yeah. It's like,join us like, now we'll let you
in. Now's the appropriate time.I mean, it's just, it's quite a
man. It's crazy. And I thinkalso to, you know, there's a
reason why, you know, again,there's no coincidences, none of

(01:02:48):
these things are mistake, that'swhy we're seeing this, this, you
know, push for, for figures whoare very much so controlled and
corrupted private sectorgoblins. But you know, seeing a
Trump seeing a Milei you know,there's a Bolsonaro seeing these
figures come that are pushing,you know, this anti state, anti
Deep State, maybe there's anextreme sense of patriotism

(01:03:12):
still, or something like that,but the actual rhetoric is, you
know, hey, you know, yeah, likethe bushes and the Clintons let
you down, Obama let you down.Here's Trump, you know, to fix
everything and it's just likehe's as corrupted as any of
these other people he's asinvolved in in all of these

(01:03:33):
secret you know, ghoulish thingsas any of them affiliated with
Epstein, you know, through andthrough, much like the PayPal
Mafia, Ilan to Hoffman. Youknow, and now we're seeing this
Milei coming out who's literallyyou know, campaigned on you
know, getting rid of the centralbank and bringing in outside

(01:03:54):
financial interest to dollarizedArgentina and it's being done as
this you know, altruistic anglebut it's like he's selling out
the country he's taking thelithium deposits selling them to
Israel. I mean, it's, he's he'sa private sector goblin. And,
and people are cheering it on ashe's literally cutting up the

(01:04:16):
country with a chainsaw andselling it. So now that there's
this useful phase shift towards,you know, hey, like the
government lost your trust. TheCIA is bad, and the central bank
is bad, but don't blame Palantirdon't blame Pay Pal. And, you

(01:04:37):
know, don't don't blame this theprivate sector banks that
control the Fed. No, no, no, no,no. afuera the central bank. But
let but let the rest of us runand dollarized the global south
under the dialectic of altruism.Um, so we're like, there's a
reason why these tick tockcreatures and social media you

(01:04:58):
know, presidents are coming outNot that generate this consent,
manufacture this consent, youknow, for this anti public
sector, you know, rhetoric likeright at this at this important
time as you know, Blockchain isbasically coming into fruition
and being accepted andintegrated by both the private
sector and the public sectorthat these private sector

(01:05:21):
goblins running control like aBlackRock. So like we're seeing
a new enabling environmentpresent itself. And it's really
important to kind of take a lookat that and understand you know,
why now, why is there? Why arewe getting figures promoted in
platform? Why is Milei speakingat Davos about how much all

(01:05:43):
these people suck? Butcapitalism is the answer,
because they want capitalismThis is how they actually
complete the coup, is toactually circumnavigate the
central bank and tocircumnavigate the public sector
restrictions on what the privatesector can do. This is why they
had an NPR is now saying, youknow, the, the biggest thing in

(01:06:04):
the way of misinformation is theFirst Amendment. You know, it's
it's totally insane, where we'regoing with rhetoric, and people
are pushing the Overton windowso far the other direction, that
by the time I think the pendulumswings back, like we might be so
far gone. And people are reallyjust cheering for this this
dissolving of, again, I don'tlike the state, I hate the

(01:06:27):
state. But I also understand whoruns the state and who controls
it. And it's these privatesector people that, you know,
that that that push all thebuttons here, and I don't want
them to run things. That's notit. Let's meet the new boss
literally same as the old boss.And they're creating
surveillance networks,blockchains dollar tokens and
real world asset commodities. Onthis new enabling environment,

(01:06:53):
that's blockchain. It's veryconcerning.

WW (01:06:58):
Yeah. So let me talk about there's a couple things I want
to bring up. I want to bring upBukele for a second. Oh, sure. I
want to bring up Ron DeSantis.Also, well, I guess we'll start
with him. So Ron DeSantis wasone of these guys not unlike
Trump that like went around verypublicly saying like, No cbdc,
because it's a threat to humanfreedom and whatever. But in

(01:07:20):
Florida, he's become, he'sforcing the adoption of the
Florida smart ID, which is adigital ID product made by
sales, which is like theflagship World Economic Forum,
strategic partner for digital IDdevelopment. I mean, it's just
insane. So yeah, so you're gonnahave the digital ID, I guess

(01:07:41):
it's going to be you know,framed as freedom maybe I don't
really know how DeSantis isgoing to do that. But he's one
of those political creaturesthat framed himself in sort of
this new mode of, you know, I'mLiberty minded. I'm coming
against the standing against thetyrannical state and the
tyrannical plans, you know, thatwas a big he was built up in
that way because of his COVIDstance to a significant degree,

(01:08:02):
and then making this statementon CBDCs. But here he is
implementing digital ID inFlorida. And a lot of states
have gone quite far ahead ondigital ID. And in the case of
El Salvador, you have them beingspecifically the mayor of San
Salvador, which is the capitalwhich Mikayla used to be mayor
of before he became president ofthe current Mayor of San

(01:08:24):
Salvador, Mario deuteron, isabout to be head of CC 35, one
of the main green plus entities,he's vice president for Central
America of it now. And it hasbeen, you know, a big promoter
and adopter of the specificstuff and is also overseeing the
installation of these likebiometric video surveillance

(01:08:46):
systems all over southern SanSalvador, that are tied up with
this Israeli tech oligarchfigure who has an Israeli
intelligence background, whohappens to be a very close
friend of Nayib Bukele. So it'svery interesting that someone so
closely affiliated with Bukelewould be involved in this carbon
market style stuff. And theclimate integration of the

(01:09:08):
Americas economicallyintegrating the Americas through
a carbon market and leading theorganization that literally has
that as its mission, and notbeing rebuked by him unless
Bukele's down for that stuff,too. I mean, it just seems a bit
weird. But again, I think, youknow, some of the role of Bukele
here, you know, regardless ofwhat you think about them, there

(01:09:29):
are some troubling things thathave happened there in the sense
that a lot of glorification ofthe military, that usually does
not end well. And of course, ElSalvador is a country that for a
long time has had a relativelyclose relationship with the US
military, and a lot of majortraumatic, violent history,

(01:09:49):
largely caused by the influenceof the CIA in there and like the
creation of US intelligence backthat squads and stuff not unlike
what happened in other countriesin Central America. can let same
period of time. So a lot goingon there that to be wary about,
for sure. And also, I think, youknow, I didn't really know a lot

(01:10:09):
about how El Salvador hadimplemented its whole approach
to Bitcoin until we started sortof researching a bit for this
piece, but it seems like a lotof it is running on the rails of
our grands, not so much asBitcoin and alder. And as we
note in the piece, basically,the person that introduced
Michael Milken to cryptocurrencyis, is the person that runs out

(01:10:35):
around right now Stacy Ward andwho used to be one of the main
Latin American debt vultures forJP Morgan. So is that the kind
of you know, I don't know, itseems like there's a kind of if
that's the case, you know, thethings I lay down, you know, it
seems like there's definitelybeen a extreme degree of
romanticizing this particularfigure, and I think we should

(01:10:55):
ask why that might be in

MG (01:10:58):
the connections with I mean, specifically, I know you got
more to go here. But I mean, youknow, just recently they had
Howie Lutnick, of Satellogic, ofCantor Fitzgerald hold the
Tether bonds in the office in ElSalvador taking pictures with
the head of Tether the bankingguys for Tether and, and, you
know, Bukele at with Howie and,you know, that's that's kind of

(01:11:22):
concerning to me, in a lot ofways. And, you know, I
understand I think El Salvadorhas been a very important thing
for a lot of you know, for youknow, Bitcoin right as this is
kind of the first country theshot around the world, the first
people to legalize it, make itlegal tender. Well, they're a
dollarized country, one of 66dollarized countries. And, you
know, one of the first thingsthat they did immediately is

(01:11:45):
build the 40,000 person prison.And there's a lot of just very
backwards, you know, Bitcoin isthis anti state, you know,
freedom, focus technology, antidollar, you know, getting out of
the dollar homogeny it's like,well, then why are so many of
the people surrounding you know,the dollar, the Bitcoin isation

(01:12:07):
of El Salvador, major players inthe dollar system, and the
prison system, it's veryconcerning, and I think that it
deserves a lot more discussion.And I think that this is
something that there's a bigissue in the Bitcoin space I can
speak of specifically is thatthere's a lot of tether funded,
you know, discourse in media,and a lot of the, you know,

(01:12:31):
major figureheads in the Bitcoinspace are literally paid by
tether or heavily involved, youknow, investors in tether, and
it does a great disservice toactually be able to discuss some
of these things. And, you know,maybe arguably instead of, like,
I'm gonna get killed for this,but you know, maybe rather than
the Bitcoin zation of ElSalvador, it was really the

(01:12:51):
weatherization and thedollarization of El Salvador.
And I think that's worth havinga discussion about, especially
when you look at some of theprivate companies that went in
there like a strike, you know,in there, like the way that they
integrated it right off the bat,it was with tether when they
opened up in Argentina, youcouldn't even buy bitcoin, it
was just tether. So there's alot of things to discuss there

(01:13:12):
with Bukele specifically thatare very concerning, that I feel
like Bitcoiners really aren'tallowed to talk about? Well,

WW (01:13:18):
I feel like there's a model. I mean, there's an obvious
effort throughout lots ofseveral Latin American countries
to replicate what's beingreferred to as the Bukele model.
Specifically, as it comes tocombating crime. I do not want
to say that there was not aninsane gang violence climates,
you know, Salvador, it was verybad. And there's an obvious

(01:13:40):
reason why people in El Salvadorlike Bukele so much just because
he ended that totally. But theproblem is those gangs deeply
connected to US intelligence, USintelligence want there to be a
phase shift. And El Salvador,obviously a very traumatized
population, whoever ends thatwave of crime and violence that
has terrorized them for decades,they are going to love that
person. Sure, regardless of whoit is, and how they do it. 100%

MG (01:14:03):
And that's something interesting. You talk to people
in South America and they loveBukele across the board, Central
America, South America, and theylove tether. You know, it's very
interesting, and how much ofthat is because of controls?
Well, they

WW (01:14:16):
stand as tools of freedom. Exactly. Well, right. And

MG (01:14:19):
then you have, you know, you know, private sector sponsored
people like from Peter Thiel andOmidyar 23 And me, you know,
like, you know, some people atthe HRF coming out and preaching
stable coins as an altruistic,you know, means, you know, and
instead, you know, really it's,you know, they've onboard to the

(01:14:40):
FBI, the Secret Service, andthey're perpetuating the Ponzi
scheme that is the US Treasurymarket across the world. Well,

WW (01:14:48):
the head of tether also said that the that hit their goal is
to expand dollar hegemony. Heliterally said that. Yep. Yeah,
yeah. And that they want to workwith the US government to do
that and onboarded intelligenceJust totally do its platform
exact and now the currency likean Argentina is being totally
wrecked. I mean, it already waswrapped, but it's being racked

(01:15:08):
up even more like even moredevalued under Milei. And now
people are being forced toeither do world coin and give up
their Iris for some world coins,right, which is another Reid
Hoffman back thing. Or they'regoing to tether or they're going
to circle USDC. So, you know,who's really been a feeding
fitting there is that freedomand what worries about me so

(01:15:30):
with this Bukele model, youknow, I can see it much easier
to manufacture consent for thatfor that model and countries
that are plagued by crime,right. So like Ecuador, for
example, is attempting toreplicate the Bukele model, but
Milei saying, Oh, we're going tostart building mega prisons. Us
too. You know, the issue inArgentina is not a massive

(01:15:54):
crime, crippling everythingissue like it has been in recent
Ecuador, like historically andEl Salvador, they have a poverty
problem. And it worries me whenyou have a guy whose whole
cabinet is full of bankers fromlike JP Morgan, and stuff, you
know, running most of asignificant part of the

(01:16:14):
government. And then you you'reinviting Larry Fink in who? John
Titus gave him the nicknametotalitarian, Larry, for you,
Larry Fink statement that themarket markets love
authoritarian dictatorships.Totally. Yeah. And so you have,
why are you building megaprisons when your problem isn't

(01:16:35):
that your country is overrun bycrime? You're overrun by people,
you know, more than two thirdsof the population now, like
under the poverty line, right?You're building prisons for poor
people. Yeah.

MG (01:16:47):
And you're creating an environment for them to be
forced to, you know, go toillicit means to be able to make
ends meet, which then forcesthem to become criminals. You're
creating situations either that

WW (01:17:00):
or you force them to onboard onto Mercado Libre is coming
digital ID system so that theycan access Mercado right pago
and use the state defined cryptorails, you know,

MG (01:17:13):
it's, it's concerning. And that's what I think is very
concerning about the green plusDC 35 element, you know, is that
there's so many regional andmunicipalities that are already
connected with this. And itseems like there's not a lot of
awareness about who theseplayers are, you know, and

(01:17:35):
again, some of it is speculationon our part, but some of it is
not, I mean, some of thesethings, you know, for whatever
reason, these people love to getup there and talk. I mean, as
you said, you know, to how welet Nick, you know, he went out
at the chain analysisconference, you know, a week and
a half ago, which is hilarious,which is the, you know, private
sector intelligence agency forfor blockchain analysis. On he

(01:17:57):
came out and said, Yeah, I wantto extend dollar hedge fund, you
know, using stable coins and howit's essential for the dollar to
continue and yada yada thesepeople say these things out
loud. So there yes, there's somespeculation on our part, to some
degree, but but really, it'swe're using their words, right.
I mean, this is this is opensource intelligence source
stuff, right? We're usingeverything in the public sector,

(01:18:19):
or just in the public domain,rather. And, you know, there's
been a lot of comments. I mean,we haven't even really gotten
into the RFK component, therootstock component, but this
Diego guy, you know, basicallycame out and said, you know,
Bitcoiners need to basicallystrip their, you know, anti
state ethos and therevolutionary ethos, and embrace

(01:18:39):
the state. And we've seen thatbeing pushed from from every
angle, you know, kind of in thisin this new adoption, you know,
of Bitcoin by Larry Fink by, youknow, these huge, huge players.
You know, there's there's a,there's a manufactured and
constructed effort to dissolvethe revolutionary ethos that was

(01:19:04):
so useful for them in thebeginning of perpetuating
blockchain that now it's nolonger useful for them. And now,
it's this this mechanism, andthis digital ledger. You know,
that that, that is so helpfulfor them for, you know, for
actualizing being the enablingenvironment, it's no longer very

(01:19:25):
useful to perpetuate, you know,this idea of it as a currency
this idea of it as the freedomyou know, censorship resistant
money. Yeah.

WW (01:19:32):
Technology for asset storage, exactly what it is
right and against what LarryFink says, That's what Jeffrey
Epstein said, Exactly.

MG (01:19:39):
It's very interesting. And obviously, Epstein is super
connected with a lot of, youknow, the PayPal Mafia, and, you
know, and and the Brahmins andyou know, the people that are,
you know, running Endeavor, thepeople that are connected to all
these things, there's there'sbeginning to be kind of this
coalition forming. You know,we've joked that you know, you

(01:20:01):
know that our books areBasically merging into this
horrible thing here of onenation under Bitcoin dollar. And
this is sort of it's kind ofhappening. But again, I think
it's really important to like,look at what they're actually
saying. And you look at thesequotes and the things that they
say, I mean, they're, they'rebasically calling for, you know,

(01:20:22):
to drop the revolutionary aspectof this and to lean into this
capitalism is freedom. And I'mnot an anti capitalist, I think
free market service areimportant, but like, not when
they're, they're not freemarkets, not when they're
markets and infrastructures inthe rails are crony capitalism,
right? It's crony capitalist.Yeah, sure, you could say the

(01:20:44):
junk bond scandal of the 80s.And the saving and loan scandal
is free market capitalism, butlike, who gets hurt, like the
taxpayers that have no idea, youcould say that the 2008 crisis,
which Epstein is connected, andhe was connected in the savings
and loan scandal to and youcould say that, you know, that's
free market capitalism, babylike, what's wrong with that?

(01:21:06):
Isn't that what we want? Well,no, not necessarily, you know,
not when you create a newdissolve regulation, like a
glass steagall, that, you know,prevents, you know, taxpayer
backed financial institutionsfrom speculating and certain
derivative markets that youknow, they weren't really
supposed to be able to with withtaxpayer backed funds, and now

(01:21:28):
that they are now they're toobig to fail we're merging city
you know, city is becoming thisway too big to fail entity JP
Morgan, way too big to fail Bankof America way too big to fail,
we have to bail them all out.You know, the capitalism has has
has run amiss with with goblinsand ghouls and you know, it's
not it's not this just likeperfect, you know, ideology that

(01:21:50):
has no issues. And I'm not anticapitalist. I'm not, you know,
any of these things that peopleare going to label me as After
saying this, but it's like, Ithink that there is a reason why
we are getting fed publicfigures like a Trump like a
Milei while we're seeing peoplein the UFC, doing interviews
with Joe Rogan saying, I fuckinglove private property, read the

(01:22:12):
Austrian School of Economics,it's just it's like, it's such a
clown show. And if you can't,like kind of see the dialectics
that's happening here, I'm notsaying don't read, you know,
high IQ, like, do it. It'sgreat. There's some great stuff
in there. But but it's usefulfor them right now. It's a
useful dialectic to push as theypillage the public with the

(01:22:34):
remains of the public sector.

WW (01:22:36):
I do also want to say that a lot of Latin American military
dictatorships in the 1980s actedlike they were really into
Austrian economics and like,held up those ideals. But if you
look at so, you know, obviously,I live in Chile, you know, a
decent amount about Pinochet. Solike Pinochet had, like the
Chicago Boys as they're knowncome in, like the students of

(01:22:59):
Milton Friedman at theUniversity of Chicago come in,
and basically design Chileeconomy. And people say that's
why Chile has been so stable.But really, Chile has been like
an economic testbed for a lot ofstuff and testbeds for other
things, for a very long time.And it's been useful for them to
have that one like state onestable country, in South
America. For a variety ofreasons, probably a big part of

(01:23:23):
it being like all the lithiumand copper is here. But I
digress. But anyway, if you lookat a lot of the stuff that's
come out in the years, since youknow, Pinochet was like a very
corrupt guy had like all theseinsane bank accounts and weird
shadow banking stuff was goingon with the Chilean state, like
they were obviously like,masking what they were doing as
being like, oh, yeah, we're allyou know, it's the free market

(01:23:45):
this and free market that but itwas like, definitely an insane
amount of crony capitalism washappening. And there was like a
crystallization of the oligarchclass that helped finance and
create the coup in 1973. Yeah,you have people like Augustine,
Edwards being like one of thepointment for the coup with the
CIA. And he's the guy that youknow, ran Banco de Chile, and
like one of the biggest bankshere. And a lot of other one of

(01:24:08):
the biggest newspaper, I mean,he's an oligarch family, and the
other oligarch families, besidesthe Edwards were, like benefited
from that period are still verymuch in control of, of Chile and
had been for a long time. Soit's not like that's free the
free market when you have likean unelected oligarchy that
still essentially controlseverything. And if there's been
this model that's been enactedall over the world. I mean, we

(01:24:31):
also solidly under LarrySummers, and Robert Rubin, with
Russia, right. And the after thecollapse of the Soviet Union,
there was the king making theselection, essentially, of all
these different oligarchs thatwere put in charge of key
industries during the quoteunquote, raping of Russia and
the pillaging of its economicresources under like Boris
Yeltsin, and you know, evenbeyond that to an extent but it

(01:24:55):
was definitely most acute, youknow, during that initial
period, and that was framed Asthe free market is here to
Russia, but was that the freemarket? Absolutely not. That was
like Larry Summers, cronycapitalism madness on steroids
with all these Harvard economistclaiming that they're, you know,

(01:25:16):
gonna bring the free market tothe former Soviet Union and yada
yada yada and they make thisinsane oligarch class that now
is their like sworn enemy, theRussian oligarchs, they yell on
like Rachel Maddow Show andstuff you literally created
that. Yes. Yeah.

MG (01:25:29):
And and what did those same players do? You know, at the,
you know, again, everyone talksabout, you know, Brazil and
Argentina and El Salvador, butlike, I mean, Mexico, you know,
what happened in NAFTA? Youknow, under the similar regimes,
you know, why is Epsteinvisiting the Clinton White
House, you know, dozen plustimes, you know, in the early

(01:25:52):
mid 90s And then why are weseeing kind of this you know,
George Soros seein you know,this this Joe Lewis guy very
connected with Argentina andwith tether, he does the banking
for tether with Deltec. Youknow, he rode the the Mexican
peso all the way down and madebillions of dollars. You know,

(01:26:13):
you know, and then, you know, wesee Robert Rubin jumped ship
from the public sector to tocity, which basically, you know,
privatized or took over ratherthe biggest bank in Mexico,
after NAFTA basically, did youknow, a similar sort of, you
know, altruistic framing, hey,let's trade with with the US,

(01:26:33):
let's do this agricultural tradeall this stuff. And we ended up
kind of just just destroying thepeso in the process. And these
guys make billions of dollarsoff at these guys get huge,
cushy, cushy jobs, they jumpback and forth between the
private and public sector. It'sLarry Summers, it's Robert
Rubin. It's city. It's JoeLewis. You know, it's it's,

(01:26:54):
it's, it's absurd. But it's doneunder this guise of kind of
like, Oh, we're opening up the,you know, the market, you know,
we're opening up, you know,these industries, we're bringing
the dollar there, you know, samething, the same players, you
know, seven, eight years before,you know, doing the Plaza
Accord, which was like kind ofthe first ever like noticeable,

(01:27:18):
coordinated central banking,their meeting in the, you know,
Roy Cohn's old hideout at thePlaza Hotel, and they're
bringing, you know, the heads ofthe central banks of the gees of
the G five at the time, andagreeing to devalue the dollar
50%, which is seen as this, oh,like, that's so great that the
dollar is so strong, and nowwe're gonna help all these other

(01:27:39):
countries. But no, I mean, theyopened up all these other
countries for us to get in therelike Japan, you know, into into
open up the country that'sindustrializing. So there's all
these like dialectics that aredone in the private public
sector, people come in, like aGreenspan, right. He's working
at JP Morgan, he writes thispamphlet about rethinking Glass

(01:28:01):
Steagall, which is theregulation put in in 33, by FDR
that doesn't, you know, let youknow, banks basically be
insurance brokers and do certainderivative trades, and be in
certain markets and mortgages,you know, interstate lines. And
so he comes in, he writes apamphlet, and says, you know,
let's rethink Glass Steagall,Let's dissolve it. And then of

(01:28:24):
course, comes in, you know, andis working at the Fed. And, you
know, they they dissolve GlassSteagall in the late 90s. And we
have 2008 basically happenimmediately after that. So it's
like, whenever it's useful forthem to push the free market and
get their people in place there.It's useful for them whenever

(01:28:45):
it's not. It's not but I thinkright now, we're at like, the
biggest time, bigger than GlassSteagall,

WW (01:28:52):
once again, so like the Treasury Secretary, right. So it
was Robert Rubin, Goldman Sachs.And then Rubin gives it to his
boy, his Deputy, Larry, and thenwho becomes head of the
Treasury. What in the leap fromyou know, to win? Oh, it's
happening. It's Henry parle.Paulson. Right. Goldman Sachs,

(01:29:15):
right. I forget where TimGeithner was before but he was
under he worked for summers onRubin and then went to Warburg
Pincus and then Mnuchin isn'tthat his dad, like basically run
Goldman Sachs? Right?

MG (01:29:30):
I, I'm not sure, but very possible.

WW (01:29:32):
But anyway, I mean, they're all from the same criminal
banks, the people that runtreasury and they like, it's an
insane revolving door, and like,people just forget that all the
time. You know, they're like,Oh, that guy was such a bad
treasury secretary. Whoa, but,you know, the banking was front
running is fine. You know, it'sprivate sector. Yeah. Yep. It

(01:29:54):
doesn't really work like that,guys, you know?

MG (01:29:56):
And now we're having the digitalization of it. I mean,
Things move so much faster. Theyou know, people love to push a
lot of these you know,questionably you know, these
these figures in Bitcoin rightlike to push Bitcoin as sort of
like digital real estate and notdigital currency, like the
sailors of the world. Epsteinsaid the exact same thing,

(01:30:19):
basically, and just kind of oneknown interview about Bitcoin.
But you know, there's sort of aland grab in the digital world,
and things move so fast there.And this idea of, you know, the
thing that is interesting aboutBitcoin, is that it's basically
digital credit, whereaseverything else is digital debt,

(01:30:39):
the dollar is a debt instrument,the way that it's structured,
it's to settle debts. AndBitcoin really, it has a debt
element to it in the real worldthat uses energy, like you
inquire a debt to mine Bitcoin.And then if you when it's issued
to you, in that debt that youincurred from a digital law, or
from an electrical loss, anenergy loss, you know, it gets

(01:31:03):
transmuted into a token, that's,you know, credit, that's digital
credit, it's the only digitalcredit that exists. Everything
else is digital debt. And soit's very interesting that, you
know, at the time, and again,I'm not trying to say too much
about where I think that Bitcoincame from. But I do think it's

(01:31:23):
interesting that Bitcoinbasically popped up, you know,
the white papers releasedHalloween 2008, you know, at the
peak of kind of the US, youknow, beginning to realize that
the the money is getting awayfrom ourselves, and we're going
to have to service this debt. Inthis way. That's very
unsustainable. And, you know, wetalked about this a bit last

(01:31:46):
time I was on here, but, youknow, the, the Bitcoins, you
know, basically growth inperpetuation with the growth of
the US debt is very interestingto me, and I don't think it's a
coincidence. And again, Bitcoinis whatever you think it is, I
mean, it is that thing, it's avery important technological
tool that can empower agovernment as much as it can

(01:32:09):
empower an individual. And Ithink we're seeing it, you know,
in power, the US government andthe US dollar market. And so as
digital debt is created, viadollar tokens, you know, digital
credit is being appreciated, andwe're seeing rapid increases in
bitcoins growth, you know, sincethe ETF, you know, I think

(01:32:30):
bitcoins up, like 50%, orsomething, just this year, the
same people in 2008, that sawthe debt, CDO explosion, you
know, these very guys are nowactually very heavily connected
to Bitcoin. You'd like LarrySummers being on the board. We
haven't even talked about himyet. But of Zappo of winces qsrs
is company alongside D Hawk, anda visa and John Reed of Citi.

(01:32:53):
You know, the three of them werethe founding board of Zappo,
which is an Endeavor connected,you know, South American, you
know, the Fort Knox of, ofBitcoin, which directly is
saying that it's connecting usdollars to stable coins to
Bitcoin. And that's what it'sdoing the same players are
basically using Bitcoin, as thisdemand and elastic digital

(01:33:16):
credit to print eventually, asWalter Hastert said to me, who's
the head of strategy at Paxos,which is, you know, a PayPal
affiliate who runs their theirstable coin, that, you know,
they're planning on there beingtrillions of dollars of highly
regulated stable coins coming?What does that mean? That means

(01:33:36):
trillions of dollars of debt wasprinted. In order to create
these dollar stable coins, youneed digital debt. So Treasuries
are happening to create thesedigital tokens. Where does that
go? It can flow into bitcoinbasically be this heatsink. So
rather than the economichegemony leave the US and go to
a China go to a BRICS sort ofsituation, or just, you know,

(01:34:00):
make gold much more valuable.Instead, it will basically flow
into Bitcoin and be used as thisdebt heatsink, you know, to be
to expand digital credit. Sothat's kind of where we're at. I
mean, we're seeing, you know,all of these systems pop up, or
how do you actually facilitatethat? How do you quantitatively

(01:34:21):
ease in a super high debtenvironment, you have to get
really creative and you have tobasically create these new debt
instruments like green finance.I believe you were the one that
showed me I'll let you spill thealbum. But what was the new VP
of RF ks campaign? What was herthesis at Stanford?

WW (01:34:41):
Well, I don't know if it was her thesis. I think it was after
she graduated. But yeah, NicoleShanahan, who's RFK juniors vice
president basically wrote somepaper about quantitative easing
through the use of carbonmarkets or something like that.
It's been a while since I'veread it Yeah, but

MG (01:34:58):
but but basically This idea of how do we create more ability
to create digital dollars tocreate more dollars and spread
this debt around, we have toplace it somewhere, you know,
you have to put it on thebalance sheet somewhere. And so
they are literally creating agreen financial system that uses

(01:35:19):
blockchain that is upheld bysatellites, that is upheld by
regional agreements between, youknow, 35 capital cities in
Central and South America tocreate a carbon credit trading,
you know, system complete withone of the biggest markets in
South America Mercado Libre tobasically shove as much debt as

(01:35:42):
possible, which is incredible tothink of more dollar denominated
debt being shoved on the globalSouth, because that's where it
all is through IMF loans, WorldBank loans, but more and more
and more and more, you know, tobasically be able to service the
33 $34 trillion of runaway debtthat the US has that now. So
they have to get creative to putthis debt in other places. Yeah,

WW (01:36:03):
so Shanahan's project, it was after she graduated, oh,
excuse me, um, it was throughlike a part of Stanford called
Code x. And the project istitled, and analysis of carbon
credit markets as validation forclimate supportive quantitative
easing, using the blockchain andwas specifically about creating
a carbon coin that works intandem with existing carbon

(01:36:27):
markets. Very crazy. We'll leavethat in the show notes for
anyone that wants to read that,but I'm pretty interesting
considering that we've hadthere's been a lot of, you know,
Bitcoin specific rhetoric fromfrom RFK. I mean, he was one of
the, I think, earliestpresidential candidates to like,
openly endorse Bitcoin, but Ithink we can expect Trump to go

(01:36:49):
on that same. He's doing it.Yeah. Yeah. So well, he I don't
think he'll be, you know, theonly main one for for much
longer. But I think, you know,it'd be interesting to watch
that space in particular,obviously, I'm a very guarded
and found my opinion on thewhole Kennedy campaign right now

(01:37:09):
since the ever since the Gazastuff, but in things that have
happened since obviously, but Ithink the Shanahan you know,
pick is quite telling, and Imean, have some, she, through
her foundation has someaffiliations with the whole
Effective Altruism crowd. Andit's the former wife of Sergey

(01:37:29):
Brin, allegedly breaking upbecause she had a tryst with
Elon Musk, which they both deny.And she says, Actually, she was
trying to look for solutions.She said for her autistic
daughter via neural link. Andthat was her reason for eating
with meeting with Musk buteither way, I mean, wanting to
brain ship your autistic child,I just definitely doesn't really

(01:37:51):
seem like what they've beentrying to market, the Kennedy
campaign as as supporting interms of health, freedom and all
of that, but anyway, don't don'twant to get too into that.

MG (01:38:03):
And currently married to a former VP of lightning Labs,
which is the Jack Dorsey fundedBitcoin company that builds on
the Lightning Network, which isits main product is taproot
assets, which is attempting tobring us dt, which is tether
dollar denominated stable coinsto Bitcoin. You know, that's

(01:38:23):
literally what they're workingon. Also, interestingly,
Elizabeth Stark, the CEO, kindof infamously denied Epstein
attempts at funding her product,you know, through the the MIT,
you know, kind of blockchainlabs already in there. Yeah,
exactly. So kind of interestingthat there's a there was a big
dollarization push, directlyfunded or attempted to be funded

(01:38:46):
by Epstein when she said no, youknow, here we are, we got Dorsey
and some other some other folksthrowing money that way. So Reid
Hoffman, some other people?

WW (01:38:55):
Well, we could definitely go on for a long time talking about
all of this stuff. But I thinkwe've covered a lot of ground
here. Is there anything you'dlike to wrap up with Mark,
before we go?

MG (01:39:05):
You know, just that, I think it's really important to, you
know, yes. See what they'resaying. Because, again, I think
that they say a lot. Forwhatever reason, karmic up
solution, whatever it is, theylike to say a lot of their plans
and these little meetings, thatthey have these little side
conference things and whateverand say, you know, quiet part

(01:39:26):
out loud, for sure. But also,you know, rhetoric is one thing
and action as the other. So Ithink especially when navigating
this world right now, it'sreally important to look at, you
know what they're saying, buttake it with the iceberg of
salt, and really look at whattheir actions are. I think
that's really important forwhere we're going next, because

(01:39:46):
rhetoric is really the name ofthe game that they control
discourse with. And we're inthis crazy algo driven social
media world, you know, where,you know, we're have clips of
presidential candidates withchainsaws and you They were just
in such clown world. And reallylook at what their rhetoric are,
look at who they're surroundingthemselves with, look at these

(01:40:06):
companies that are being createdand, and, you know, look at
boards, like no one looks at VCstuff, so much of this project,
this writing came about from usjust like digging through, you
know, who founded what, youknow, we have 10,000 words of
notes of literally just raw dataof VC firms, and seed funding.

(01:40:27):
And I think that, you know,stuff like that, you know, it's
all out there, there's so muchavailable information and just
really like, arm yourself withit. Don't fall for the rhetoric,
cuz, you know, there's, there'sa whole new paradigm that's
coming. And, you know, they wantus to be as useful and as
idiotic as possible. And I thinkwe have to just be really
skeptical of everything. And,again, really thankful to be

(01:40:49):
here. It's a pleasure to writewith you and work with you. And
yeah, I'm really thankful to behere on on limited hanging out
once again, thanks so much.

WW (01:40:56):
Yeah, absolutely. And before signing off, I just want to
piggyback on that. I mean, theamount of money and energy
that's being directed intogetting people to consent to the
stuff is truly outrageous. Imean, if you think about it all
this effort in, you know, Idon't want to say just Trump,
but sort of like that politicalsphere in which he is enmeshed.
There is a an effort tomanufacture consent among that

(01:41:20):
particular the, the peoplethey're trying to appeal to
their base, right? To giveconsent for digital ID, no
anonymity online, all of thesedifferent agendas. And they're
going to do it in all sorts ofwhatever ways. I mean, we
already seen it with like, thesmart wall stuff. Obviously, the

(01:41:41):
migrant migration situation isout of control. But it's been
out of control for a very longtime, but there's been increased
agitation about it, and thesolution being offered as the
smart wall, which is, you know,a bipartisan spook back thing.
So, I mean, it's going to becoming from either side,
whichever side, they think theycan sell it most effectively,

(01:42:03):
but they are selling it, andthey're going to go out of their
way to sell it to people, butthe fact that they're investing
so much money in selling, itmeans that they need to think
made, they need to make peoplethink that it's worth using,
they need people to voluntarilyonboard onto the system. And
that is why they're putting somuch money onto it. So what does
that tell us? That tells us thatif you don't comply, or you

(01:42:27):
don't use it, it will fail. Andthat, I think, is what they're
most concerned about goingthrough all this effort. I mean,
you see it with the carbonmarket, too. They've been trying
to foist the carbon market onthe world for a very long time.
It's been very unsuccessful,it's been exposed time and time
again, is a giant grift palooza.But they they're not disarming
it or trying to, you know, it'snot going anywhere. They're

(01:42:50):
trying to find new ways to sellit to people, you know, even
creating entire new like miniindustries to try and prop it
up. So I think the fact I thinkthat speaks a lot to like, how
much our willingness to complyor not comply is a factor in how
far all of this stuff goes. SoI'm definitely appreciate you

(01:43:11):
and your contributions to thisproject in order to help people
see what's really going on here,at least, you know, the little
pieces of the puzzle that we'vebeen picking away at over the
past several months. So thanks alot Mark. So where can people
find your work and support you?

MG (01:43:26):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. editor in chief of Bitcoin
magazine, and author of theBitcoin dollar, which you can
get at Bitcoin magazine. Andsome other big online
marketplaces. Yeah, come checkus out. I think we do some good
work there. And you can find meon Twitter at Mark. Good W under

(01:43:49):
score I n. Okay,

WW (01:43:51):
great. Well, thanks so much, Mark. And thanks, everyone, for
listening, and especiallyeveryone that supports this
podcast. Thanks so much. Catchyou all next time.

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