The False Self with Ryan Cristian

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
WW (00:19):
Everybody, welcome to Unlimited Hangout. I'm your
host, Whitney Webb. So as manyof you know, or maybe you don't,
unless you follow me on Twitteror get the Unlimited Hangout
newsletter, but I've been in thehospital here in Chile, with my
one and a half year old, sincethe beginning of June, we're
actually still in the hospital,I have a friend watching him
right now. So I could get awayfor a while to record something.

(00:43):
Because obviously, I've had alot on my mind over the past two
plus months, you know, it's beena while, and honestly, you know,
after trying to entertain asmall child in a confined space
for a long time, doing somethinglike this makes me feel kind of
kind of normal again, which is,which is definitely nice for me,

(01:04):
in a sense. So I don't want totalk too much about my my son's
medical situation, and I've sortof explained it in other places,
you know, before to an extent,but thankfully, there is a light
at the end of the tunnel, alittle bit of uncertainty about
the timeline, but we're hopingto be home. Finally, sometime
next month. So long story short,this whole experience has has

(01:30):
changed me, you know, in a lotof ways, it's made me rethink a
lot about how I approach and Iguess, balance different aspects
of my life, including work, ofcourse. And, you know, pretty
much everything. Um, I'vethought a lot about healing,
obviously. And, you know, that'spart of what I want to talk

(01:54):
about today. For the first, youknow, couple of weeks, I guess,
several weeks, maybe of our stayin the hospital, my son was in a
really, really bad way. And he'sdefinitely out of danger.
Definitely not the kind he wasin for sure. But when he was,
you know, I spent a lot of time,you know, sitting next to I'm

(02:18):
looking at him, he was in aninduced coma, he was on life
support, you know, so I wasthinking about him and his life,
the circumstances that broughthim into my life, what could
happen, you know, if he doesn'tmake it home, or, you know, all
sorts of things, and I think,you know, that's pretty normal
for any parent, in thatsituation. And, you know,

(02:42):
obviously, for a lot of thattime, I was obviously pretty
emotional. I mean, it's hard notto get emotional, even just
talking about it again, but, youknow, it was really the first
time since I've had kids that Ihad a lot of time to myself, to
just sit and think about thingsand reflect on life, my life,

(03:05):
what kind of mother I've been,what kind of person I've been,
and how I can be better for mykids, so that when we finally do
get to go home, things are thebest they can possibly be, you
know, I've heard from a lot ofother parents too, that have had
their children in the ICU orthe, the niku, you know, that it
really just totally changes, youknow, how you were the kind of

(03:29):
parent you, you want to be,because it's just such a
emotional time, for lack of abetter term for it. And, you
know, even though my son stillhas a few physical things, you
know, to heal from obviously, Irealized that I have a lot to
heal from to, you know, notnecessarily physically, and I

(03:54):
think, you know, if we're honestwith ourselves, as adults,
right, you know, it's, it'spretty much true of us all, you
know, life is not necessarilykind. And, you know, sometimes,
you know, we distract ourselveswith work, or we're busy with
kids, or, you know, all sorts ofstuff comes up. And sometimes

(04:17):
we, we forget about, you know,those parts of ourselves until
we're sort of forced by thecircumstances of life, to, you
know, look at them and starethem in the face, right. So, for
a long time, and pretty muchever since I've been writing and
had any sort of platform, butreally, even before then, I've

(04:37):
avoided talking about personallife as much as possible,
including why I do the work thatI do and why I care about it.
And I actually get asked this alot in interviews, you know, how
did I become who I am? Why do Ido what I do? And if you've
noticed, I try and give shortand honestly pretty evasive
answers. And, you know, anexample of that was actually

(04:59):
pretty recent. I I was askedthat exact question at the
Bitcoin magazine conference inMay. And, you know, he told me
he was Mark Goodwin, he was thehost of that panel told me he
was going to ask me that rightbefore we went on stage. And I
was like, Oh, I actually don'tknow if I want to talk about
that. So I'm going to try andcome up with something else say,

(05:19):
because, you know, I, you know,I mean, part of the reason I
don't like talking about it isbecause I'd rather that the
interviews and publicappearances I do be about the
work and the research and notabout me. And part of that is to
avoid, you know, the shoot themessenger tactic when people
want to discredit something. ButI also, you know, there are
questions that are hard for meto answer because I don't like

(05:42):
talking about my past, or whereI come from, and what made me
who I am, I don't really thinkit's very pleasant, I think it's
actually a rather unpleasantstory. So in the first part of
this podcast, I won't be talkingmuch necessarily about that
maybe more towards the ends. Butwhat I do want to talk about and
focus on today is how a lot ofthe tactics used by people who

(06:06):
are abusive can be very similarto what the elites are doing to
us right now. And how they'retrying to engineer society in a
particular direction, to make useasier to control. And I think
in some way, try and make usmore like them. And I think in
examining those parallels, itsort of helps elucidate why they
do it, and what we can do aboutit. So, but now, I'd like to

(06:29):
introduce the person who'sjoining me today to talk about
these issues. So of course, it'sa regular guest of this podcast,
Ryan Christianna, the lastAmerican Vagabond one of my
favorite people and independentmedia to talk to you, how are
you doing today, Ryan?

RC (06:44):
I'm good. Thanks for having me on Whitney. I just wanted to
say off the gate, that I thinkit's, you know, it's
commendable, first of all, butto take take something that is a
hard moment in life and turn itinto something or try to make it
something that's worth, youknow, that you learn something
from is something that peoplehave a hard time with, you know,
there's always been theseunsettling moments in our lives,
that, that you can truly,profoundly change in a positive

(07:05):
way. If you, you know, if youtry to dissect it and learn from
it, you know, as much as they'reterrible. And so that's
something that this is, youknow, like, either understand,
we're going to talk about todayand how we can, you know, see,
in regard to the government andpersonal relationships, as well.
So I think it's a good time forthis conversation.

WW (07:20):
Well, I think, you know, on a broader scale, like on a
societal level, a lot of us haveto heal from stuff in order to
really like, you know, not tosound cheesy, but the sort of
heal our world, you know, andmake sure the next generation
isn't really messed up, becausethere's a lot of obviously
really messed up going on,there's a lot of forces that are
trying to specifically targetkids with all sorts of stuff.

(07:44):
So, you know, definitely crazytimes to live in. And, you know,
I think part of the change thathas to come needs to, you know,
be internal change for forpeople to an extent,

RC (07:55):
you can't change until you appeal first. Right?

WW (07:59):
Right. Totally. So there's a lot of ways we can start off
this conversation. But I guess,you know, all started off
talking a little bit about, youknow, I guess, my past. So, I
grew up in a household with aparent who is a very extreme and
very, very sadistic narcissist,experience, you know, my adult

(08:22):
life, you know, I decided, assoon as I can legally leave my
home, and 18, that I didn't wantto spend my whole adult life
suffering from that. So I spentmost of my 20s trying to sort
that out as much as I possiblycould. On my own, because I
know, you know, if you just buryit down and don't deal with it,

(08:44):
it's something that destroys youover time, especially if you
know, you have anger and allthis other stuff, it can eat
away at you, and cause a lot ofproblems. But, you know, the
more I've reflected on thatparticular type of abuser, and
there's a lot of resources forthat type of abuse. It you know,
if you look for it online andstuff, I just realized there's a

(09:06):
lot of parallels, you know, withthe powers that be the elites,
whatever you want to call them.And that a lot of the tactics
that narcissists abuse, or usewhen they abuse their targets
and how the powers that beabused us there's a lot of
similarities. And I think partof that is because at the end of
the day, what narcissists areultimately seeking to do is to
keep their victims and of coursethat, you know, they don't do

(09:30):
this to everybody, theystrategically pick certain
people to do this to, or, youknow, if you're the child of
one, you can't go anywhere, soyou're your easy prey. But
essentially, what they aim to dois to keep you basically in this
toxic system, and train you toessentially serve them and their
needs and neglect their own andcontrol you. And of course, you

(09:54):
know, we talked about a lot withthe elites that it's really all
about control for them at theend of the day and they're
trying to control have us inways that are just extreme and
obsessive. And of course,they're doing that so that we
continuously serve them anddon't have a mind of our own.
So, you know, maybe that's onesimilarity. But the one thing

(10:15):
that, you know, you, you and Isort of talked a little bit
about before recording that, Ithink is a really important
thing to look into here is theidea of narcissism. And I guess
what I would call the falseself, right? So what do I mean
by that? So narcissists, tend tosort of have a split
personality, in a sense, but yougenerally, you know, only see

(10:38):
one side of that self, when it'sprojected publicly, right? So
narcissists will have a superiorgrandiose self, and that's what
I call the false self, becausethey're trying to project what
they want people to see aboutthem. And then they also have an
inferior, devalued sell for, youknow, I guess, the real self,
for lack of a better term. Andthey sort of vacillate between

(11:01):
these and trying to manage thefeelings of inferiority that
bubble up from that devaluedself is, you know, responsible
for a lot of behaviors thatnarcissism show and a lot of,
you know, behavior that theyuse, that's abusive, you know,
in terms of the people thatthey're trying to keep, you
know, providing them with, youknow, what, what is termed often

(11:21):
narcissistic supply or sort ofthis. These feelings and these
feelings of power over peopleand all of that, that sort of
keep narcissists, more or lessstable in there. Instability, I
guess, for lack of a betterterm. So. So the term narcissist
rate comes from the Greek mythof narcissist. And essentially,

(11:43):
narcissist was a guy that fellin love with his reflection in a
lake or something like that, apool of water, and he died
waiting for the response of hisreflection. He like hungering
for that response. But I thinkit's more fair to say that the
way it is with Narcissus is thatit you know, they, they hunger

(12:05):
for how they're reflected in theeyes of other people. So a lot
of times, at least in myexperience, they have this
obsession with how other peopleview them. And they want to be
viewed a very specific way but alot of times that's very, very
different than how they actprivately like with their family
at home or with the you know, inthe relationship they are where

(12:27):
they're, you know, abusingsomeone.

RC (12:29):
It's so interesting, the more you look into this and I
love the overlap is sofascinating. Think about of the
way that these what I've we'vewe've all continued to see a
sociopathic borderlinespsychopathic people in power, is
that it's inherently insecure,which is so interestingly,
contradictory. seemscounterintuitive, right? That
these people are insecure withwho they are, but it's
inherently selfish, right?They're ultimately trying to

(12:52):
create this perception ofthemselves through the way other
people see them. And that's soincredibly relevant to the way
the government acts with ustoday, we gaslighting and, you
know, making us feel lesserthan, and I just find that this
I think this is such animportant topic because like I
agree with you, I think that'sexactly what's happening to us
today.

WW (13:10):
Yeah, well, if you think about the elites, right? Um,
well, here's an example not topick on him, right? But Elon
Musk, right? Elon Musk hasreally, really, really wants a
certain chunk of people to thinkhe's super cool. He's a, he's
obviously invested a lot of timeand building up that persona.
But it's very insecure, right?Because people that have, for

(13:31):
example, there's a bunch ofaccounts, for famous people that
post like where their privatejets go and stuff, it's publicly
accessible information, hefreaked out that a guy was doing
that, about him. And there'sother examples of, I think,
Musk, and also have differentcelebrities, you know, someone
insults them or something, andthey just, like, freak out about

(13:52):
it, and have like manymeltdowns, and try and like, you
know, destroy the person thattook them down a peg. But again,
you know, there's a lot of a lotof these billionaires spend a
lot of money and trying tocreate this version of
themselves, that if you lookinto the person really isn't
real, like Bill Gates, forexample, right? Trying to

(14:12):
project what a greatphilanthropist and altruistic
guy he is, you know, when if youactually look into Bill Gates
and his whole deal withphilanthropy, it has nothing to
do with altruism at all. Rightnow. They're trying to project a
certain version of themselvesand mask the real self. So
they're like masters at thiswhole false self thing? For
sure.

RC (14:32):
Do you think that it is both that they're trying to make
other people see them as betterthan they are? As well as the
fact is that they're trying tomake others worse than they are
like, in the sense of where thegovernment kind of Yeah, under
their thumb?

WW (14:45):
Well, I think that's pretty clear. If you consider you know,
what I think is a pretty easy todocument tendency among the
elite and the powers that be toview the little people as you
know, scum, really. And that'swhere a lot of like the whole
eugenicist mindset comes from.

RC (15:01):
Right supremacist? Yeah. Well, the

WW (15:03):
idea, they feel like they're so smart, and they're, you know,
so good at planning whateverthat they can choose who lives
and who dies on the extreme endof eugenic, you know, eugenics
and then, you know, elsewhere onthe eugenic spectrum, you know,
they get to choose who gets toreproduce, and who does not get
to reproduce, you know, theythink they have the right to

(15:26):
make those decisions for otherpeople, because those other
people don't know what's bestfor them. So that's inherently
looking at, you know, everyoneelse is lower than them. And I
think this is sort of a taughtbehavior in these elite circles,
especially people that are partof these, like, generational
moneyed families. I think it's,you know, part of the

(15:46):
upbringing.

RC (15:48):
You could also point out that the social media, like you
mentioned, with Elon Musk, themore that they engage in the
feedback loop, we've talkedabout a lot of whether way
social media works, that thatbecomes almost like a self
fulfilling prophecy bycontinuing to engage with that
system. And, you know, and justjust like it's a continuous,
it's a feedback loop. You know,you're wondering if that's good.

WW (16:07):
Oh, well, I was just gonna say that I think social media is
all about the false self. Idon't know if you wanted to
finish the point. You weresaying before I go off into
that.

RC (16:19):
No, please. Yeah, this is this is where I think he gets
really interesting. And the ideaof how social media plays into
it.

WW (16:26):
Right. So you know, if there's this need to publicly,
you know, like, we've talkedabout narcissists have this need
to publicly project a specificpersona, out into the public so
that people view them a certainway. And they're obsessed with
how people view them, but it'snot necessarily how they really
are. So the internet, I think,has not just taken that tendency

(16:49):
and narcissist to extremelevels, but it's also made
people into narcissist who maynot necessarily have been
narcissist otherwise,

RC (16:57):
right? That's fascinating. And I like like, not just people
that were already borderlinesociopaths, but like just
average children, teens that getpulled into this world, like, it
makes me think of whether wewant to get into specific
craters or not, but veryspecific, large craters out
there that are very openly likenegative against certain people.
And yeah, that's, that's, that'svery sad to think about. It's

(17:17):
happening to a lot of unwittingchildren and teens and adults.

WW (17:22):
Yeah, well, I mean, you know, if you look at the studies
on like teams, and social media,it makes kids really depressed.
And it makes them feel bad aboutthemselves. And paradoxically,
perhaps, most of those girls aretrying to post pictures that are
the most flattering, they spenda long taking many pictures and
picking one out of like, youknow, 50, they might take,

(17:43):
right, or, you know, adjustingit with filters and all this
stuff. So they're trying to makethemselves look as good as
possible, but they end upfeeling awful. So they're
projecting something that's notreally them, and projecting that
falseness out there andinteract, having this like sort
of, you know, fake interaction,that's all about this dopamine
feedback loops and creatingaddictions in like in the brain.

(18:08):
To want to be in that is makingpeople miserable. And so it's
basically creating this falseself where everything's great,
right? And then privately, it'sturning these people into, you
know, feeling like their realSelf is inferior. And that's
exactly what, you know, is thedeal with narcissist. And, you
know, obviously, narcissistsexisted before social media. But

(18:28):
my point here is that, you know,like I said, a second ago, this
is really making it extremelycommon, I think, among, you
know, society where social mediaand the internet is ubiquitous
at this point.

RC (18:42):
Yeah. Well, what you kind of mentioned before we went live,
the overlap, like bringing itback to the government point is
that, you know, it wouldn'tsurprise me. If this entire,
like, let's just take theconcept of Facebook, which I
think we're all kind of awarenow was a not a military kind of
project originally, that wasmade to literally turn people
into narcissists and orsociopaths. And for the very

(19:02):
purpose, you were saying that itsort of creates this situation
where then one, they're easierto rule and manipulate, but it
makes them feel way better aboutwho they are.

WW (19:12):
Yeah, well, you know, you're basically creating people that
feel awful about how they reallyare and but they become addicted
to the system. And they likecan't live without the quote
unquote, approval, the likesthat they're receiving from
people that are reacting to thequote unquote, false self.

RC (19:31):
mean, it's like every abusive relationship, but like
you were mentioned in thebeginning, right? I mean, it's
the same kind of feedback cyclewhere you create you as long as
you make someone feel likethey're not good enough to be
there, then you can you cancontrol what their outcome their
actions and that's what'shappening to everybody.

WW (19:46):
Yeah, but I think there's a there's a couple different
levels here too. So like whensomeone is I mean, of course,
narcissism like anything likeautism or any personality
disorder, not that autism is apersonality disorder, but you
know, there's this spectrum ofany sort of condition, you know,
tends to fall on a spectrum. AndI think narcissism is like that,
too. So you'll have like peoplethat are like really extreme

(20:08):
pathological narcissists, a lotof them tend to be like
sociopathic, even sometimes theytend to be psychopaths, you
know. And that's why I thinkmaybe you have so many in
positions of power to becausethere's studies right about how
psychopaths and sociopaths tendto, like rise really high up the
corporate ladder, they tend tobe the top politicians, and all

(20:29):
of this stuff, too. And so, youknow, people on that end of the
spectrum are easy to control inthe sense that you can give them
stuff that over inflates their,the self that they publicly
project out there, and the stuffthat they want. And a lot of
times what those guys want is todominate other people, they want
control, or they want everyoneto think they're the best thing
in the entire world. Celebrity.Right. Right. So they're easy to

(20:53):
control in, in that sense. Andthen there's people, you know,
on different parts of thespectrum. But ultimately, you
know, if you're creating, youknow, a generation, you know, of
teenagers that have had socialmedia, since they were really
small. And at the end, theirbrains haven't fully developed,
and they're using it right, andthey become wired to these
feedback loops. I think the wayof manipulating them is a little

(21:16):
bit different than say, thepeople on the far end of that,
of that narcissist spectrum thatare, you know, too far gone to
really rehabilitate, in a sense.

RC (21:26):
Well, I the first parallel for me, and this may be just
because this is where I've beenresearching. But you know, you
can obviously overlap with thisthings like the transgender
movement, and how theseplatforms are being used to
create that same dynamic wherethese went these young girls,
primarily young girls, today,something like 70 something
percent, even though that wasbarely exist, it was mostly
younger boys before that are allsuddenly filled with the idea

(21:48):
that they're not right, thatthey're that they're not worth
what they are currently is notgood enough. Right? And that

WW (21:54):
was their goal. Yeah, no, I was just gonna say I was gonna
agree that they're authoring youknow, the biological self and
look into this other self thatthey're being told, if you
invest your time and energy andthis self, it will fix all of
your problems.

RC (22:10):
Right, right. And then the inherent underlying point that,
you know, first, obviously,you're not good enough the way
you are. But if you do this, andyou change yourself for the
image that we think you shouldbe, then you will achieve
happiness. But then what we'reseeing is the exact opposite,
just like the media platformsthat they're desperately
unhappy, and then Mote you know,many people speaking out about
that today. And then that, butthat's in and of itself becomes

(22:31):
another cycle. You know, and forme, it's hard not to see this as
something that's being done topeople, not just a byproduct of
malfeasance, you know, like,we're saying it's got this all
this is just one big, abusiverelationship?

WW (22:42):
Well, definitely, I think, you know, the way power stays in
power is by being, you know,abusive, and a lot of that
abusive is, you know, there's alot of different ways that abuse
manifests, right? So there'slike, the violence of the state,
the state creates chaos, right?And abusers do that, too.
They'll create chaos, and thenyou'll be like, I'll do anything

(23:04):
to stop this chaos, this crazyexplosive anger, just to make it
go away, whatever you want, youknow, and then also at the, you
know, the elites also do that,you know, will only stop.
Exactly, well, ascension is is agreat example. But you know,
bombing all sorts of, you know,tools of the state or, you know,

(23:24):
state violence and other orfalse flags, you know, will only
stop this if you give in to whatwe are asking for. Right?

RC (23:34):
The parallel. I mean, it really is exactly the same thing
when you think about it.

WW (23:39):
Yeah, but, you know, it's crazy, like, in my case, I, it's
probably because I grew up in ahousehold that was messed up,
but like, as an adult, like, Ihad a hard time being able to
recognize people doing this,probably because I've had low
self esteem my whole life, youknow, and so I just, I was
really good at seeing howgovernments and the state and

(24:00):
the powers that be abuse us, butin my own personal life, it took
me way longer than it shouldhave.

RC (24:06):
Why do you think that is? Why do you think see, especially
from someone like you that isvery clearly able to pick out
the things that many otherscan't see? Right? So what why do
you think it took you so long torecognize that in your most
immediate relationship, um,

WW (24:19):
because I think a lot of it has to do with like, when when I
was a kid, I was made to feelguilty everything. A lot of a
lot of narcissistic households,when they have kids, they put
kids in certain positions andyou can read about this. You
know, anywhere they talk aboutnarcissistic parents, you know,
they'll have one kid that's thequote unquote, golden child is

(24:40):
the term for it, and the otherkid is the scapegoat that
everything gets blamed on and soI was the scapegoat. I was the
oldest kid and my daughter wasthe my daughter My sister was
the golden child. And it's notlike she had a great time and
she didn't turn out to be anarcissist, but she also had a
lot of, you know, trauma fromGrowing up, I think it was just

(25:01):
different for me. So I was usedto being blamed for everything,
including stuff I didn't do, andjust kind of constantly devalued
throughout my, you know, entirechildhood and adolescence, so I
was just kind of used to being,you know, treated poorly. And,

(25:21):
you know, when it happened tome, later on as an adult, I was
just, you know, it feltfamiliar. And, like, you know,
we got weird, I guess. But whenyou grew up in an environment
like that, you know, it'sreally, it was really easy to
guilt trip me. I think that was,but you know, I was made to feel

(25:41):
bad like that all the time as akid, and I guess it just was
sort of wired in my braindifferently than it is from
people that don't have thatexperience.

RC (25:48):
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, we're all raised to, you
know, revere the parents, andeven the same thing with the
government, you know, we'resupposed to trust authority, you
know, you take direction as akid in school. And so it's hard
for a child, especially to standback and reflect on that not
being the norm, you know, yeah,totally. I was gonna say a good
example, in like, a relationshipexample is something that we're

(26:10):
everyone's familiar with,there's books written about it,
it's called negging. Right. Andthat's a basic tactic of just
making somebody else feelunsettled. lesser than so you
disarm them to a degree to whereyou can essentially manipulate
them to the point of sexuality.And it's terrible when you think
about it. But ultimately, that'sa narcissistic tactic. Same
thing we're talking about,really, but from a, you know,
for family level, or from agovernment

WW (26:32):
level. Yeah, good point. So another parallel that I think is
kind of interesting is that, youknow, the the government the
powers that be the elite,they'll publicly project empathy
when their actions showanything, but and this is kind
of interesting, too, becausenarcissists don't experience
empathy, like normal people do.They basically have to mimic it,

(26:55):
but they know they notice thathow important empathy is in
interpersonal relationships,right? And so they know that if
they can convince someone, theyare being empathetic, then they
can, you know, I guess addanother tool to their
manipulation tool belt, youknow,

RC (27:11):
how what do you know that what the prevalence is or just
what the overlap is withnarcissism and sociopaths
sociopathy because that's verysimilar tack characteristic?

WW (27:21):
Well, I think there is a lot of overlap, because essentially,
you're not really caring aboutother people's feelings. I think
the way, you know, narcissiststend to approach other people is
what can I get out of thisperson? What can this person do
for me? How can I get thisperson to do this thing that I
need them to do? Not like, Iwant to have the genuine
friendship or romantic or, youknow, parent child connection

(27:44):
with this person?

RC (27:45):
it the more I think about it, I would say if I had to put
a pin in it, it's that anarcissist still feel like they
they still it's ultimately tomake themselves feel better
about who they are, or you know,they're insecure, whereas the
sociopath, maybe he doesn't careat all. Right, more about trying
to fit in with people that, youknow, I mean, I'm not an expert,
but that seems like that makessense.

WW (28:07):
Yeah, I mean, maybe that's possible. But you know, I think
there's a lot of I don't know, Ithink there's a couple different
ways of looking at these people.I don't think they're all
necessarily going to be thesame. But I do think a lot of
narcissists do have sociopathictendencies. I mean, that would
make the most sense, becausethey basically look at people

(28:28):
from a utilitarian perspective,and they approach a lot of their
relationships that way, youknow, what can I get out of this
person? And how can I use them?Right? Yeah, so anyway, going
back to this point of, ofempathy, you know, if they are
trying to use someone, and theycan act like they care about a

(28:50):
person's feelings that can gopretty far. And if you think
about, you know, even back acouple, probably not now, it
doesn't work anymore. But like,for the elites, and like,
mainstream media, and all ofthat a lot of these public
figures, politicians, right,will like project that they feel
bad about something. Or they'llput out a story like look, this,
this happened to, you know, thisimportant person and you

(29:12):
shouldn't feel bad for them orthey did something caring. So
like the earliest example ofthis in terms of like PR, you
know, manipulations, I guess thepublic is someone like John D.
Rockefeller, the country's firstbillionaire who was a total
garbage shaman and the way theytried to turn his reputation
around was by you know, showingvideos of him like giving money

(29:36):
to like little pennies and coinsto like children like look how
nice I'm being

RC (29:41):
and stuff. I remember that there was a whole campaign about
the big the silver dime, rightit was given every all the
shoulder come up and he handsout little dimes, you know,
that's, it's that. Yeah. Thatwas like an actual marketing
campaign. Right. That wasn'ttotally Yeah.

WW (29:54):
And I think that's really common with false selves of
narcissists, too is that theywant to project someone who's
really empathetic, like I careabout other people. And I think
the powers that be want us tothink that also, and I think we
did touch on that a little bitbefore, but it's I think that's
definitely a commonality betweenthe two groups, for sure. At

(30:14):
least tactic wise.

RC (30:17):
I think it's a really important point. I mean, that's
kind of why I was asking aboutthe sociopath overlap. Because
empathy is, I mean, somethingyou would argue a narcissist is
aware of they clearly feel they,they're there. I mean, I It's
hard to say, because they'reultimately it's about
themselves. But ultimately,

WW (30:33):
I think they know, when people expect them to show it
that they work to that. Yeah. Tonot be an outlier, you know,
yeah.

RC (30:41):
To fit in, essentially, yeah. But what you're saying is
a really important point tothink about it, you know, so
projecting empathy is, is, youknow, the same overlap. So you
can see that exactly the sameway, like and the same time
doing so in many ways that triesthat the attempt is to make you
feel guilty, maybe not about,like, take an example of foreign
policy where, you know, showinga picture of a child, that's,

(31:02):
you know, in a bombing, like,like Oman, from Syria, for
example, you know, somewhere,then you somehow feel guilty,
like you didn't do enough. Andreally, it's all an illusion,
you know?

WW (31:12):
Yeah, I'm sure it'll do that with Ukraine, you know, look at
this sad situation, we shouldhave sent another 24 billion to
Ukraine, right? Why didn't youdo it? Or why don't you listen
to John Bolton who said, don'tworry about escalation, blow
everything up. When it's amazingpeople still listen to him. I

(31:33):
know I'm blowing. Yeah,

RC (31:35):
I always point out that the same time you've got people on
the other side of the world, youknow, who are standing there
watching people who they knoware killing their family stand
up and act like they care orgain empathy from others, you
know, and that's a differentlike a byproduct of that, that
is very hard to like that causesextremists. We've always talked
about that.

WW (31:54):
Yeah, well, another good example to like, think about the
fundraising campaign for thatawful earthquake in Haiti, and
how all that money that wasraised with like the Obamas, and
the Clintons, they built sixhouses, and the rest of it, they
don't know where the money went,right. But that whole campaign
was feigning empathy for thepeople that the people running
it, right. Feigning empathy forpeople in Haiti, knowing that

(32:18):
the people that were donatingwanted to help those people and
then taking the money andrunning, basically.

RC (32:24):
And then even another aspect of dynamic is that is that then
they take that and do terriblethings with it, which is what
happened?

WW (32:30):
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. So

RC (32:33):
it's happening. Now we right now, I think, by the way, sorry,
yeah.

WW (32:37):
When it's upright, well, it was like the Red Cross, right,
that was involved with that inHaiti. So you know, why wouldn't
they do the same for the funds,they're collect connected
collecting for Maui right now.And actually, Obama was one of
the big voices, you need todonate to the Red Cross for
Haiti. And now he's the onesaying donate to the Red Cross
for Maui. So he's obviously nota good person. And he projects a

(33:00):
false self, to the public, forsure. And I think a lot of these
politicians do and but again, Ithink these guys at the top
levels they have complete, likePR teams dedicated to shaping
that false self for them or asnarcissists don't necessarily.

RC (33:18):
Yeah. Well, I would say again, that the sociopath, well,
I mean, it goes both ways thatthey really do train their
entire lives like that. I'veoften heard that, specifically,
sociopaths are better, they willbe better at emulating emotion
and people that actually haveemotions. Because because they
just are their entire lives aretraining to be to project what
people are wanting to see.

WW (33:39):
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And the more convincing it
is, the less likely people areto question if someone tries to
be like, actually, that's not agood person.

RC (33:50):
Yeah. Right. I mean, Obama is such a great example. I mean,
even now, like you what youwatch him talk, and if you don't
know this person, he very, veryclearly projects a someone who
cares. Someone who is there foryou, you know, is that, but we
know that's not true. I mean, atleast in his actions. So these
are case a case study for thatfor sure. But I mean, the
question then becomes, do youthink this person is? You will,

(34:13):
let's just move Obama aside, doyou think there's examples of
people that are maybe not fullyaware of how they're being used
in that way, that are that arebeing kind of trained as a
budding new narcissist ingovernment, for example?

WW (34:25):
Well, I'm sure there's like a, you know, as you move up the
ladder in politics, and you'resort of following other people
by example, and they're likethis, you're like, this is the
behavior I have to engage in tobe successful. And obviously,
once you get to the higher uplevels of the government, or
really any really corruptorganization, you're gonna get

(34:45):
to the levels where you realizethe extent of how, you know,
corrupt everything is and howthe people are, you know,
there's a lot of theft going onand illegal activity and then
obviously, you know, you onlyget into that world if you're
Uh, down to participate in it.Right? Yeah.

RC (35:03):
Right and compromisable typically, right, right, right.
Yeah,

WW (35:06):
sure. And so, you know, you have people that are willing to
operate in that type ofenvironment are probably willing
to be like the people that werearound, right, or they were
before. And I'm sure a lot ofthese people are pegged early on
in their political careers or,you know, whatever the career
field is for those qualities.

RC (35:30):
Yeah, I agree completely. You mentioned the the false
self, which is a real that'sit's a really fascinating
conversation. We were talkingabout that beforehand, right?
The idea of how that applies tothe direction all this seems to
be going in? How do you thinkthat plays into all of this in
regard to how they're justactually training us through all
these platforms?

WW (35:51):
So with social media, I hate I think the whole point is to
try and get us to identify morewith the false self, which at
this point is really, you know,in the context of social media,
really, the internet is thedigital self. Right? Yeah. Get
us to identify more with thatthan who we actually are.

RC (36:14):
At the end of the day, that is, and I think we're right now.

WW (36:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, you look at
a project like the metaverse anddigital twinning, and all of
that, and it's really obvious.You know, we've talked about
before how a lot of what's goingon right now, the point is to
lead us there. But a lot ofpeople aren't interested in the
metaverse like they tried tolaunch it, launch it during
COVID. And it was a flop. And alot of what happened during

(36:37):
COVID with the lock downs was toget us super sucked into the
digital world all the time,because we couldn't go outside
and we could only connect withother people by a computer.
Right. So I think it was a bigpush. And I think perhaps they
expected it that change tohappen a lot faster during COVID
than it actually did. Becausethe metaverse again was a flop

(36:58):
and so you have to continue andcriminalizing it. How you know,
Pepe, how intense thatconnection with the digital
false self whatever becomespeople to get people to want to
be in the metaverse or havedigital twins. And you have to
at the same time make people somiserable in their real selves

(37:20):
or in their, you know, inreality in order for that to
happen. And when we talked aboutthe metaverse, which was a few I
guess it was last year. Or maybeit was the year before 20 No, I

RC (37:32):
Yeah. It's hard to say no, I think it was.

WW (37:34):
Well, I've been in a hospital for 10 weeks. So I have
like no concept of time anymore.But we were we were talking
about how there was like a Ithink it was a former CIA guy
writing in some MSM thing aboutthe metaverse and he was
basically saying, by the timeyour real life is so miserable,
you'll prefer the metaverse andhe basically like said the quiet

(37:56):
part out loud, very gross. Yeah.But yeah, and so I think the way
it started with social media,you know, first is like what we
already talked about, likemaking people have low self
esteem, because they're tryingto make themselves online and
publicly look the best theypossibly can. And then

(38:17):
eventually, there's this gapthat they you know, they're
putting all these filters ontheir pictures and all this
stuff. But that's not how theyreally look, when they look in
the mirror. What you're

RC (38:25):
seeing in the gap is makes it creates an unsustainable or
rather a unreachable goal,right. So they're just never
happy with who they actuallyare.

WW (38:32):
Yeah, and they'll never be happy. Because this is happening
like in teens and kids, andthey're in their formative
years. And they're going to beyou know, it's going to be kind
of hard to undo. And so it playsinto this other stuff you're
talking about or that youbrought up, you know, that's,
you know, seeking out kids rightnow. But there's also like this
Metaverse stuff and theimmersive gaming. And all of

(38:53):
that is also appealing to thosesame groups. And it's
essentially the same. It's thisauthoring of the real self and
trying to get you to be like,Well, what I want to be my real
self is that online self is thatdigital self false self. And I
think

RC (39:11):
both are just gonna ask you, what do you what do you think
will finish your thought, butwhat do you think the you know,
the reasoning is to drive peopleinto that? Because the
narcissistic side is clear forwhy they want to create Let make
us feel lesser than but what'sthe I mean, the obviously the
bigger implications of the bigthe reset kind of direction of
all that but yeah, is that one?

WW (39:31):
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Because I think the more people
feel like they need that digitalfalse self in their lives, the
more addicted to it they are,the more they need it. They
won't give up their access tosocial media, they won't give up
their internet access. They'lldo anything to keep the
smartphone or their connectionto that digital self. They'll do

(39:52):
anything to keep it anything atall.

RC (39:55):
Yeah, I mean that if you if you're looking for a connection
that's easy just to drive peopleinto a point to where they're
desperate to maintain whatthey've created in this
Metaverse and then then insertthe digital ID verification.
Yeah,

WW (40:06):
you know exactly. Yeah, exactly. But this this is all
coming before the metaverse, youdon't need the metaverse for
what I just talked about tohappen. I mean, think about
Twitter right now. Twitter hasrolled out the blue check. And
soon. If you're not a bluecheck, you won't be able to use
Twitter.

RC (40:21):
Yeah, you know, oh, sorry. Good. I was gonna say, I'm gonna
talk about it later. Probably. Ijust thought today that they're
already starting to roll outwhat you and I've already
predicted is that the the nextlevel of the verification, so
they get you, you know, becauseit's right now just a number. So
the next most people thatalready kind of got used to what
the benefits are they're gettingare going to turn down, you
know, an iris scan or who knowswhat comes next, you know?

WW (40:44):
Yeah, well, as you mentioned, the goalpost is
already starting to move rightwith everything about new
Twitter. I'm not going to callit X it's I don't mosque. Yeah,
cuz I mean, x was Elon Musk's,like failed bank from the late

(41:04):
90s. So it's always hisambition. And he's been open
about this with new Twitter isto turn it into his words, half
of the financial system, if notmore. So. Basically, you know,
there's people that arecompletely addicted to social
media, they're on it constantly.They're on their phone
constantly. It's not everyonethat uses social media, right.

(41:27):
But there is a group there thatneeds it. Or they're addicted to
the internet. And they can'tlive without it. So what you and
I have talked about in the pastand what the plan that's been on
the books a long time, evenbefore what's happening now with
new Twitter is to force peopleto connect their internet access

(41:51):
to some form of governmentissued ID and this was tried out
in the US, obviously didn't getvery far. But they drew up plans
for it. And they called it thedriver's license for the
internet. So a government issuedID is tied, probably through
your internet service provider.So you can't get online without
you know them knowing everythingyou do online because you're you

(42:14):
know, access through the gatewayto even get to the internet is
everything you do online isgoing to be tied to that Id
they're gonna know exactly whoyou are. Right. And that was the
ambition then. And that's what'sgoing to happen now. So a lot of
my work that I you know, Ioriginally did for tea lab on
stuff like the the webpartnership against cybercrime,
which is like the FBI, theDepartment of Justice, British

(42:36):
intelligence, Israeliintelligence, all of the big
banks. You know, it's within theWEF Pay Pal and all these other
entities are there. They're veryopen about that being their
ambition for how to end quote,unquote cybercrime on the
internet. Everyone's got to havean ID to get online. And there's
been a push to in mosque is oneof them before he even bought

(42:59):
Twitter, authenticate all realhumans on social media that Musk
said in the tweet, yeah. Butthere's been a push for this
elsewhere, especially amongofficials, for example, in
Australia campaigning againstmisinformation, no one should be
allowed to be an anonymoustroll, and all of this stuff,
right? And so now what you havewith new Twitter, right is this

(43:24):
effort to and it's not justtying your government issued ID
to new Twitter, the way they'rerolling it out. You also have to
take a selfie and upload yourgovernment issued ID and the
selfie extracts it says it inthe fine print biometric data
and that's the run through anIsraeli company.

RC (43:47):
This is a small side note but the partner

WW (43:49):
company of Amdocs by the way, just thought that was might
be fun to point out that somepeople park corneas and docks
everyone's favorite Israeliintelligence front company since
like the early 2000s

RC (44:03):
Or any number of other things you've done on the
overlapped Israeli intelligencewith all these things in the in
the United States. But But doyou think that the fate the
selfie, I mean, it saysbiometrics but that isn't
there's plenty of things thatcould mean do you think it's
taking iris scans? Do you thinkthat's happening with what
they're doing?

WW (44:18):
Well, I think if it's your selfie, it's not necessarily
going to be an iris scan becauseI think you have to use a
specific type of camera. This isgoing to be a selfie you take
with your I guess your computerwebcam or your your phone or
something. So probably not. Iguess I just wondered, I think
its mission, its facialrecognition where they map your
face, right? Yeah,

RC (44:39):
just as just as alarming. But yeah, I definitely see this
coming. And then you know, kindof bringing it back to the same
point is that then people aregoing to feel obligated or they
have to like these kids areaddicted as you said, and
they're going to they're goingto give this stuff up willingly
whether they realize it's bad ornot. And then it just same
cycle, you know, into the nexttechnocratic world of it.

WW (44:58):
Totally. I'll give you an sample. So, you know, I was in a
relationship with someone that'sostensibly against all this
stuff, digital ide cbdc, and allof this stuff. And one day
before bed, he was like, youknow, you're not going to be
realistically be able to resistthe cbdc. And I got, like,
defensive, I was like, Yeah, ofcourse I can. And that's what

(45:23):
I'm trying to do. And like, mywhole life is dedicated to
resisting that system. And thenhe got mad, I was defensive, and
kept countering with all thisstuff, like, well, then the kids
won't be able to live a normallife. And, you know, we won't be
able to buy stuff that we need,and all of this stuff, and I was
just like, whoa, you know, kindof blown away by that. But

(45:43):
people, you know, like, that aresort of in that narcissist
category, like the convenience,they might publicly project
again, this false self, thatthey align with this, and that
the way they want people to viewthem, right. But at the end of
the day, they like, what theybecome accustomed to, you know,

(46:05):
like, even if even people thatare against it will be like,
Yeah, I'll take it because itmeans I can keep access to all
that stuff, right? I don't wantto live without that stuff. Give
them

RC (46:16):
more power over their ability to manipulate the way
people see them.

WW (46:20):
Well, not just that, right. But you know, if you think about
like, narcissists, in general,they're trying to get people in
their lives to basically caterto their every whim, which is
actually impossible. It's like,a bottomless pit that you're
constantly trying to fill withdirt, when you're in those types
of situations, because thegoalposts keep moving, and it's

(46:40):
never enough, because you'rebasically trying to fill a hole,
that's a, you know, a thing thatthey have to sort out in
themselves, you can't possiblydo fix it for them. So you know,
they, they are trying to getpeople to to take care of them,
they don't really want to do itthemselves, you know. And so
like they like that conveniencea lot. I mean, the same person

(47:03):
I'm talking about to refuse tostop on locking their phone with
her face, but was also veryagainst the use of facial
recognition by police, eventhough all the big tech
companies pass that facialrecognition stuff on your phone
to police. But it's moreconvenient. Right? Right.

RC (47:19):
It's just It's hypocrisy, right? At the core of it. All
right, these are your your yourfate, as you said, the false
self, all all to your benefit atthe expense of other people,
essentially, is that what seemsto work out? But you know, how
do you how do you actually havea relationship with somebody
when you're like that? Not tonot to veer away? Sorry, if you
wanna keep going, I just poppedinto my head, I just seems
impossible. You know? Well,yeah.

WW (47:41):
Because you can't basically what happens when you're in a
relationship, whether they'reyour parent, or your boss, or
your boyfriend or girlfriend, isthat, like I said, You're,
they're manipulating you to tryand, you know, do whatever to
keep them stable, but they'renot, they're inherently not
stable. So no matter what youdo, and what hoops you jump

(48:02):
through, and you know, they'lltell you, everything's your
fault all the time. No matterwhat you try and do to change
yourself, it will never fix thesituation. So ultimately,
depending on how long you'rethere for, it happens to
everyone, eventually, you end upfeeling hollowed out, like to
have nothing left because you'rein a relationship where you've
been literally giving everythingyou can possibly give. At the

(48:26):
end of the day, I mean, whatyou're basically giving no
matter what they're asking ofyou or telling you they need or
whatever, you're giving energyand you eventually you're just
left without anything. I mean,left feeling like you have none,
and that you have nothing andthat you are nothing because at
the same time you're beingcontinuously devalued for not
being good enough by thisperson.

RC (48:46):
They're Emotional Vampires, right? Like literally, you know,
well, go ahead.

WW (48:51):
No, no go you go. I'm just gonna

RC (48:53):
add to the gaslighting is what you're talking about
gaslighting, and that's anotheroverlap to what we're dealing
with everyday with powerstructures, you know, that just
constantly telling you, youknow, it's almost a point, but
it's just different levels ofthis, you know, the gaslighting
is very clear and all that.

WW (49:07):
Yeah, so gaslighting is interesting because if you think
about where the term comes from,it's from this movie. I think
it's from the 50s. And it'sessentially a man with who with
malicious intent, wants toconvince his wife that she's
mentally ill. And basically, hetakes the gas lamps in the
house, which is where the termgas lighting comes from. Right.
And he and he slowly he slowlydims them. And when she comments

(49:31):
that they've been dumbed, hetells her that they haven't been
dammed and that there must besomething wrong with her, and
over time, is graduallyconvincing her that she's
insane, and making her doubt herability to observe and perceive
reality and the goal ofgaslighting and by the way,
gaslighting is always done withmalicious intent. The goal of

(49:53):
gaslighting is to have it sothat you no longer feel
comfortable defining your ownreality and You become dependent
on someone else to define yourreality. And that person who
obviously did this to you ahorrible thing to do to someone,
but they did this to you withmalicious intent so that they
can define your reality to suittheir needs and their whims.

RC (50:15):
Yeah, like no no concern in any moment about how that makes
the other person feel. I mean,that's, that's actually, I've
never heard that before. That'sreally interesting. And that's
exactly what we're talkingabout, right? I mean, that is
narcissism, it's taxes. Clearly,you tell me, but that sounds
like a very prominent part ofthis whole thing.

WW (50:31):
It I think it is a prominent part, because it's part of, it's
a key way in which you try andconvinced this other person that
they can't, to make themdependent on the narcissist,
obviously. And just eventually,so that they can perceive. They
don't feel like they canperceive reality anymore. So

(50:52):
they're dependent on the personthat gaslit them, who again,
oftentimes will feign empathy,Oh, I feel so bad that you're
having all these mentalproblems, right? I'm trying to
make you think that like,they're the only ones that can
help you, you know, making youfeel like you have to depend on
them. And at the same time, thatperson if they're a narcissist,
or you know, also in theparallel, like the elites,

(51:13):
right, are trying to get you toserve them. And they're trying
to control you so that youconstantly are serving them and
giving to them.

RC (51:23):
Right and back and solidifying in your mind all the
time that you are the problemwhen that's the opposite. Right.
Yeah. The parallel to thegovernment elitist discussion is
incredible with that. I mean,that's, that is like, you're
operating out of the handbook.It's exactly what they're doing.

WW (51:37):
Well, I again, I think a lot of the people at the top, I
mean, to do what they're doingto the world, they have to be
narcissist, right? Andpsychopath and sociopath.

RC (51:46):
So I guess, my guess my question is, you know, where we
might not that we can answer atie? It's kind of just a
general, you know, is that abyproduct of the fact that
they're sociopaths in thosepositions? Or is this a
deliberate effort to create thesituation to drive us in this
direction? It's probably both.But

WW (52:01):
with the elites, it is definitely a deliberate effort.
And AI is a huge part of it. I'mactually as soon as I'm, you
know, free again, going to beworking on something for
Catherine Austin, Fitz, that'sexactly about this. And
artificial intelligence, it'sgoing to be about a little bit
more than just what I'm going tosay here. But there. So for tea

(52:22):
lab a few years ago, right, Iwrote about the National
Security Commission onartificial intelligence. And the
head of that is Eric Schmidt.And Eric Schmidt's best friend
for life and mentor, is HenryKissinger, and Henry Kissinger,
in him wrote a book about AI. Sothese are basically the people
like setting essentially with ahuge influence over AI policy at

(52:45):
the national security level andbeyond. Right. So this is
basically how the quote unquoteDeep State wants to use
artificial intelligence and thestuff they say in this book is
so insane. So the overview ofthe point that's relevant here,
because obviously, they say alot more in the book. But they
basically say, artificialintelligence can see realities

(53:07):
that we cannot see, because it'sso much smarter than us. And
then in another part of thebook, they say, the more we come
to depend on artificialintelligence, as our personal
assistants, and if you thinkabout it, right, AI is now
creating music. It's creatingart, it's replacing journalists,
it's writing, fiction andnonfiction for us it's doing all

(53:31):
of these things humans used todo right will become so
dependent on AI doing all thatstuff that their words, we will
become cognitively diminished tothe point where we become
dependent on AI. And we can'tlive without it. And the people
that become dependent on AI thatway, will no longer over a few

(53:51):
generations be able tocommunicate with the people that
don't oh my god, basically likethat extreme of a change in
people's minds basicallyreducing us big making us so
stupid that we can't functionwithout AI. And because AI sees
a different reality than we do,and they also note in the book,

(54:12):
AI has no morality it has noemotions, all of that if it is
there is programmed by thesepeople. Right? So you become
dependent on AI to tell youwhat's real and what's not. What
reality is and they don't seereality like we see reality,
right? So it's about peoplebeing I don't know what you want

(54:33):
to call it transformed really,into essentially a different
species where we can't perceivereality ourselves anymore in AI,
that these guys program does itfor us. So that was like, the
same end goal is gaslighting,but taken like so far beyond the
goal. Exactly. But if the goalis to define another person's

(54:54):
reality to suit the needs andwhims of the abuser Yeah, man
That's the biggest plan for AIbecause they claim to have, you
know, write all the newsstories. They can deep fake any
video or any photograph theywant now, and I think a lot of
this is probably playing out onsocial media like right now
because, you know, on Twitterespecially, I mean, a lot of

(55:17):
these AI guys, you know, ElonMusk is an AI guy, right? And
was behind I think, one of thecofounders of open AI for chat
GPT chat, GBT is all over thisKissinger Schmidt book, all over
it. And it was before its biglaunch. We're just like, Oh, I
got to use it. It's gone viral.You know, this stuff is already

(55:39):
happening. And in that book,which I think was published in
2020. They're basically like,yeah, AI has already basically
taken over our lives, and peoplealready can't live without it.
So they're expecting this tocontinue. And eventually, people
are going to have to say, No,I'm not gonna interact with this
crap anymore. And buildsomething else. But my point is,

(56:00):
people have become so addictedto it, and addicted to the
feelings they get from that, youknow, been created through this
whole dynamic we're talkingabout with the false self and
this public projection thatthere's a lot of people that
won't be able to live withoutit.

RC (56:13):
Yeah, right. It's already being set up now, like you're
saying, I mean, they reallyaren't made in their own image.
I mean, you're having sociopathsliterally make this thing into a
sociopath is what it soundslike. But what's crazy to me,
though, let me let me ask itthis way for you. Because you've
written a lot about the art likewhether or not they're truly
able to achieve that does inyour mind? Is this them?
pretending this is artificialintelligence? And it's just

(56:35):
basically emulating what theyare? Or is this actual? Or will
it be actual artificialintelligence that just acts in
that way? Because they've madeit that way?

WW (56:43):
Okay, so I think artificial intelligence and I've, we've
talked about this before, partof it is a psyop. It's not as
far along as they want, becauseone of the things we talked
about not that long ago, was wecalled it the Google AI,
sentient CYA, remember, andthere was this guy that was
trying to say that Google's AIhad become sentient and had
basically become like, thesingularity. You know,

RC (57:05):
that's kind of what I was reading. I should have made that
clear, not not just AI butspecifically like, sentient AI,
like which is what they'reaiming for. Is that how you see
this? Or are they is it stillmaking it?

WW (57:16):
It's gonna Yeah, the reason they want you to think that it's
like sentient and all thisstuff, they're not going to be
able to achieve that. I thinkthat part of it's a CYA, but
they will have it feign empathy,just like narcissists do, man,
right?

RC (57:29):
They're literally taking narcissistic artificial
intelligence.

WW (57:33):
But that's the point. Because the AI, they admit, is
like built in sociopathic, itdoesn't have those things that
make us human, it's there tomanipulate us for them. That's
the whole point. I mean,obviously, there's tested AI
does better and can like makethings more convenient. But
these people are telling youwhat they want to use it for.

(57:53):
And it's like a narcissist onsteroids. Yeah, to be

RC (57:55):
honest, it's kind of blowing my mind right now. You're so I
mean, we're talking about them.The the people in authority, who
we all seem to recognize aresociopathic narcissist, building
artificial intelligence thatthey're already using to design
the way our lives are beingmaintained. Or have you seen
that? And they're literallycreating it in a way that's it's
like they're like in anoverlapping with a technocracy
mindset. They want to be likethis, they want to make this

(58:18):
forever. I mean, it's just, it'sterrifying. I mean, how do you
stop something like that?

WW (58:23):
Um, okay, so

RC (58:25):
awesome question. I'm just like, blown my mind.

WW (58:29):
Well, one thing I mean, if you look up, like, you know,
anywhere about narcissism, howdo you deal with a narcissist?
How do you end things with anarcissist? How do you get a
narcissist out of your life? Theanswer across the board is the
same. It's go no contact,perfect. If you can go no
contact, I mean, there's somepeople that try and make it

(58:50):
lesser contact. But honestly, inmy experience, no contact is
what you have to do. Because yougive them a little bit, and
they'll they'll try and suck youback in. I mean, every time I
think,

RC (59:05):
just the fact that I didn't expect that when I said that I
thought was an impossiblequestion. But really, what you
said is exactly right. You justget you you no longer engage
with artificial intelligence orthe technology they're putting
in front. Right?

WW (59:16):
It's the same answer. So with the powers that be in the
elite, that are like this, it isit's exactly the same, you're
right. It's going no contactright, with these systems and
build something else. And that'swhat you mean, Derek and a bunch
of other people have beentalking for years now. But you
know, I think some people youknow, like I sort of said
earlier, like, I've been good atseeing how this plays out on the

(59:38):
government level, but not sogreat about seeing how, you
know, seeing it in my ownpersonal life, because of how I
grew up and stuff. Obviously,I've learned from that I hope,
but you know, I think there'speople that maybe have the
opposite problem, and they'rereally good at seeing it in
their personal life but theydon't believe the governmental
do it because their parentsbelieve in the government and
everyone they know is alwaysbelieved in the government. I

(01:00:00):
Maybe that's changing now to anextent, but there's still a lot
of people that buy into thatstuff. You know?

RC (01:00:05):
I agree. Yeah, that's interesting. You're right is to
kind of

WW (01:00:07):
think about it. Yeah. About Is there a toxic person in your
life? You know, how do you dealwith that? And they'll be like
in a second. Oh, yeah. Go nocontact. But what about a
government that's trying toenslave you? Right, that's
pretty toxic. Right.

RC (01:00:21):
Exactly. Yeah. Well, I mean, that that's very difficult,
though, right? Because that's,you know, depending on which way
you look at it, like just takenon the personal level, you know,
that the idea of somebody goingno contact with somebody who's
become a central part in howthey see themselves. I mean,
that's near impossible for somepeople.

WW (01:00:38):
Yeah, sure. But, you know, at the end of the day, like in a
narcissistic relationship, like,like, like I talked about
earlier, you end up feeling likenothing and with no energy,
you're hollowed out, and youlose control over your life. You
lose complete control over yourlife. Because they, they want it
all. They want all the control.They want complete domination.

(01:01:02):
And it's not necessarily becausethey want all the stuff you
have. It's like the feeling.Yeah, I agree. But other people
that like, you know, orpsychologists and stuff
essentially say the same thing,because it helps sort of numb
that those feelings that bubbleout, bubble up from the real
self, right?

RC (01:01:20):
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. You know, I mean, so you
essentially get driven to apoint of, you know, you're
already desperate, but nowyou're desperate in every sense.
So you might as well go, nocontact and be desperate. What's
causing it? Yeah,

WW (01:01:32):
exactly. I mean, it gets to a point where you just can't
keep going. Yeah, you know, andI think a lot of people with the
powers that be obviously haven'tgotten there yet, and things
probably have to get worse forenough people to get it. But
people that know now, what'sgoing to come? I think the
answer is pretty clear. But Imean, you can't control what
people do, obviously. I mean, Ihope people are trying to go no

(01:01:55):
contact, but it's a whole issueof it disentangling yourself, so
narcissist when they getinvolved with you. And
obviously, you know, it's aslightly different situation
when you're gonna have a childof a narcissistic parent. But
the it takes time to disentangleyourself, it's not an immediate
thing, at least a lot of thetime. And it's not easy. But

(01:02:17):
it's, it's the, it's really theonly way to heal.

RC (01:02:21):
Yeah. And I think the point being is that you don't, even if
you break contact, you stillhave to change as a person, as
you know, you without thatperson. And so that you're
right, it's a whole process togo through. And that's what I
think with this, thisconversation will help people
see that in the sense of the waythe government is acting in
their lives. Because you'rebecause it's the same thing. If
you look at a personalrelationship, it's like trying

(01:02:42):
to help somebody that have acold. You know, you just don't
want yeah, you know, so there'sYeah, we're trying to break
through that for people.

WW (01:02:49):
You know, I'm glad you brought up call because you
know, in cults, right, you haveinstant, you know, there's
Stockholm syndrome. Andsometimes you hear that about
cults of survivors, trauma,bonding, those kinds of terms
get thrown around, but I think,you know, and I've heard this
from other people before, Ican't really remember where but,
you know, there's, there'speople that have said that,
like, people have Stockholmsyndrome with the government,

(01:03:12):
right? Because you're grown upbeing taught that the government
is going to be there for you.And it's basically like a
parent. And ever since thebeginning of American history,
it's been one long, steady roadof progress leading to eventual
greatness. Well, I mean, that'sthe narrative and like public
school textbooks, I mean, publicschool, I mean, it's not real at
all. So you're, like, fed thisillusion, and a lot of people

(01:03:33):
can't handle the reality, youknow, and even if the system,
the reality is there, and thegovernment is abusing them,
they'll still hold on to that.Right. And the same is true in a
in a narcissistic relationship alot of the times because this
doesn't happen with narcissisticparents, because like I said,

(01:03:54):
earlier, kids are stuck with theparents. But with narcissistic
relationships, there's thisinitial phase that starts off
this trauma bonding thing. Andpeople tend to call it love
bombing. So it's like the earlystages of the relationship, and
you're just showered withaffection by the narcissist
they're so nice to you. And theyended up they do this thing

(01:04:16):
that's called mirroring whereyou'll like you'll say, you like
something and they'll be like,Oh, I love that thing too. And
they probably never even heardof it. But they like basically
become they study youessentially. Yeah. And are
trying to present themselvesbasically is your soulmate,
because there's so much like youand what's what are the odds
that we're so much like eachother and all of this stuff?

(01:04:38):
Because I mean, it sounds like

RC (01:04:45):
you know, someone that's literally studying your every
move and then emulating thatit's like they want to become
you. It's terrifying. Well, like

WW (01:04:51):
earlier, like I mentioned with empathy, how they sort of
mimic it. I think this is kindof the same. This is how I get
someone to fall in love with me.because they just they've
studied it and done it enoughtimes that they know. So after
that phase ends, you know, theystart, you know, the abuse might
start. And then they start doingthis thing that, you know, as

(01:05:13):
far as the terminology clubgoes, they'll call it bread
crumbing, right, where basicallylike, you know, there will be
abuse, and then there'll be likea glimmer of the behavior that
was in that love bombing stage.Right, or a period of calm where
they act like that person again.And so and then it'll go back to

(01:05:34):
the abuse. And so you're leftthinking, Oh, I can fix this
person. Or if I do, what theytell me to do, and what they're
telling me to do, and I acceptthat I really am the problem
100% of the time, which norelationship, it's like that,
you know, then that person willcome back. And we can have the

(01:05:54):
perfect relationship like Ithought it was going to be in
the beginning. And they'll juststringing you along that way for
a long time. And that'sessentially what trauma bonding
is in the narcissisticrelationship. But you'll you
know, I think the way thegovernment does that is more
with like a PR campaign, youknow, they'll they'll manage it
that way and be like, Oh, well,the government's on this awful

(01:06:14):
thing. Oh, well, look over here.Look at the nice thing the
government's done. Or look, JoeBiden's with his cute dogs don't
mind that they've eaten almosteaten a bunch of Secret Service,
or that, you know, his son'sinsane, and they're super
corrupt, and, oh, look, theyhung stockings for their
grandkids and all this stuff.You know, I mean,

RC (01:06:33):
that's an important part of it, too, is the whole, you know,
the basically just trying toearn that, you know, trying to
act like project that out to theworld and what they do, like you
mentioned something before,actually, when you said like
farming sympathy, you know, it'slike that, that's something that
it seems is absolutely necessaryfor these people to maintain
what they're doing is to, youknow, like, I guess it's the
same point from the beginning,actually, the idea that they

(01:06:54):
need to project that so peoplesee them that way, you know,
it's kind of full circle.

WW (01:07:00):
Yeah. And don't worry about it. Well, there's this other
thing, too, like in that PRcampaign that the government
does. So like, they'll have theones where they make the
leaders, the people in charge,like, oh, look what great
people, they really are with PRstuff. But there's this thing
with narcissists, too, that sortof, well, a lot of times I've
seen it referred to as the smearcampaign. So usually when

(01:07:22):
narcissists realize they can'tkeep using a person, or that
person is no longer serving themthe way they want. They discard
them. But before they discard orif, you know, at some point, you
know, they don't necessarilyhave to be thinking about
discarding the person but in theindividuality that they decide
to they they start slowlysaying, you know, behind their

(01:07:45):
back, like, oh, yeah, well, theperson I'm dating is actually
crazy to some people here inthere. You know, it's like an
insurance policy, in a sense, sothey have certain people primed
to be on their side when things

RC (01:07:58):
finally go south. Very calculating. Yeah,

WW (01:08:01):
yeah, totally. And so I think the government does this
to like, you know, they'veessentially been setting up for
years that everyone that doesn'tvote for the Democratic Party is
a domestic terrorist.

RC (01:08:11):
Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, you know, hyperbolic terms for, you
know, the capsulate, everybodyin one category is something
that's

WW (01:08:19):
crazy, totally. And there's a lot of twisting of words,
which also happens withnarcissists, you know, so like,
someone that doesn't want togive their child every vaccine
is automatically anti Vax,exactly hates every vaccine, or
people that just want people tohave the right to choose, even
if they've gotten all thevaccines themselves anti backs,
you know, and there's like this.I mean, that's really common for

(01:08:41):
for narcissists to do too. Ihave a ton of examples there. I
don't even know if I can pickone. But you know, you see it
all the time with with thesepeople too. And another thing
that's really common withnarcissists also is that they
don't have they don't allowpeople in their lives, the
people, they abuse to haveboundaries, they don't allow

(01:09:01):
healthy boundaries at all. So inthe case of narcissistic
parents, they see children,their children as extensions of
themselves. And so like, theydon't give their children
privacy at all, like so forexample, like when I was a kid,
I'd get, you know, my motherwould have keys to every part of

(01:09:22):
the house. So like, even if Iwas like, going to the bathroom,
she could come in and scream atme. Like, I wasn't even allowed
to have that time to myself,she'd go through all of my
stuff. I obviously didn't keep adiary, because she looked for
them, you know, searched my roommultiple times a day, you know,
you're not allowed to haveprivacy at all. And, well, the

(01:09:44):
powers that be if you thinkabout it, they don't want you to
have any privacy. Right? And ifyou think about it, healthy
boundaries, in a sense, youknow, if you think of it on the
societal level or thegovernmental level, it's the
law, right? That's what'ssupposed to be the boundary He's
in society, you can't break thelaw, you can't break that
boundary that's been placedthere for a specific reason. But

(01:10:06):
the powers that be themselves,they break the law all the time
without consequence. Right?Right. And so the boundaries are
just for the people beneath theminteresting.

RC (01:10:16):
It's all inherently ties back to insecurity. And that's
exactly the same point witheither situation, the government
is very aware that we all seewhat they're doing. And so what
they're doing is not trying tokeep us safe from ourselves.
They're prying in to ourinternal conversations to make
sure that they know what's goingon. Same thing, right. Like
you're, you're staying with yourfamily, it's not about like,
making sure you're not doingsomething wrong, at least in my

(01:10:37):
opinion, it sounds more likethey're worried about what you
might be doing, they don't wantor that you might find something
they don't want you to see. Orthat's what it would sound like
more to me, it's more inherentin security, you know, just the
government. I

WW (01:10:50):
don't think they're good. Yeah. Well, in my case, I don't
think if it was insecurity, Ithink it was about establishing
control, control, and dominance,but wanting you to be afraid of
them.

RC (01:11:03):
Your personal situations, obviously, you you know, more
than anybody I mean, like in ageneral sense, though, don't
couldn't you argue that controlis kind of overlap with the same
way that people need thatcontrol as sociopaths and
narcissists, because they'reinsecure about what you may do
when you're not doing exactlywhat they want. Like, that's how
I would see that.

WW (01:11:19):
Yeah, maybe maybe to an extent. But I think at the same
time, you know, like I wasreading on about what you know,
because of my experiences, Ispent a lot of time reading
about how Pete other people'sexperience of narcissism and
there was this one story of thisdad, that was the narcissist in
this case. And he had threedaughters. And he gave his three

(01:11:41):
daughters and necklaces, and hesaid, when they were little like
four, five, and six, and said,You have to wear these necklaces
all the time, you can't takethem off, because I'll know if
you take them off, and I'll seeeverything you're doing. You
know, basically being like,they're wearing surveillance
technology, and they wereterrified to have them on and
terrified to take them off. Andobviously, they were just like

(01:12:01):
little glass bead necklaces, orsomething. And that has not,
that's about control. That'sabout making them terrified of
you. Yeah, and doing whateverthey say, because you're, it's
using fear to control people.And, you know, narcissists do a
lot of that too. And one of thereasons, you know, that I have
not, like I told you before westarted recording, you know, one

(01:12:23):
of the reasons I've never reallyopened up about my experiences
before is because I've been tooscared. Even though, you know,
I've, you know, don't havecontact, really, with my
parents, you know, I'm scared,oh, this, you know, I publicly
talked about it, I might getback to them, and they'll say
something to me. I mean, itreally won't really affect my

(01:12:47):
life very much at all,especially at this point, you
know, especially now becauselike, my sister and my dad all
know, the situation, you know,they might have denied it when I
was younger, but they they allwe all agree now, you know, but
I'm still scared. Just to saywhat happened to me. And the
same thing to with with my ex.You know, I we broke up. Several

(01:13:09):
months ago, I was scared to sayanything. And it wasn't until
you know, my son was in thehospital, he was treating me
like crap. He didn't even askwhat he could do to help his
son. And then he was, you know,trying to ruin relationships
with people that I work reallyclosely with, behind my back,
including people that contributeto my site and I regularly co

(01:13:31):
author articles with and notjust them, I mean, a bunch of
other people, you know why I'vebeen going through this awful
experience with our child. Andat the same time, this person
was also trying to publicly farmsympathy and publicly fundraise
off of my son's condition, eventhough he has never and we'll

(01:13:54):
never send money. So, you know,I got I stopped being afraid at
that point, because I, you know,I don't want to have to cower in
fear of people forever. Youknow, I was controlled by fear
for a long time. And I don't,you know, not feared the
government, right. Like, I don'thave a problem on that level.

(01:14:17):
But in my personal life, I youknow, why? I had all this time
to just sit there and thinkabout my life and my kids and
you know, who I am, you know, Imean, I put my daughters through
hell, while I was in arelationship with this person.
That was wrong with me. I shouldhave been stronger and not been
controlled by fear. But I was,you know, it's really sad. It'll

(01:14:39):
always be sad for me, you know,but I can't continue to do that.
I have to stand up to the bullyat some point. And I think all
of us have to, whether it's thegovernment or someone, I mean,
people don't deserve to betreated that way. And I grew up
feeling like I deserve to betreated that way. All right. And

(01:15:01):
for me to move on, I have I justfelt like I had to publicly talk
about it. Because I didn't knowany other way to break that
fear. You know?

RC (01:15:11):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's obviously it's a very brave
thing to do in general, just foryou. But I think you know,
what's important? Is it you tellme if you know you, we don't
even talk about this, dependingon how much you want to get into
it. But the action of makingthis step, you know, this is the
healing part we're talkingabout, you know, like the fact
that you, like you said, like,you're no longer scared. So for

(01:15:33):
those listening, you know, whatdo you think was the turning
point for you? What was it? Imean, obviously, you have this,
this very powerful, thisprofoundly changing moment where
you're suffering with your son,and you know, you've decided to
reflect on that? Is that whatyou think, kind of put this over
the edge? Or was there somethingyou kind of did that made you
realize that you need to bedifferent? Well, you

WW (01:15:51):
know, it, there was a lot of stuff that happened over the
course of relationship that was,you know, pushed me over the
edge a few times, I guess, youcould say, because I, you know,
I broke up with this person, ortried to multiple times. But,
you know, the only reason I saidsomething publicly, you know, I
really don't like like I saidearlier, I don't like talking

(01:16:13):
about my personal life at all.Um, and so it has to get to a
really bad point for that tohappen. And, you know, when your
son's been on a ventilator forfive days, and you don't know if
they're going to come home, andthen you have their dad, instead
of saying, How can I help? Isthere anything I can do? You
know, bullying you demandingstuff from you, and then

(01:16:35):
threatening you. It's just, itwas just too much, and then
trying to trash your reputationbehind your back. It's, I just,
I couldn't, you know, I didn'twant to have to take that lying
down anymore. I mean, it's justdehumanizing. And, you know,
that whole relationship left mefeeling completely dehumanized.

(01:16:57):
Anyway, and I was, you know,before my son ended up in the
hospital, I felt like I wasreally coming out of that, and
then to have to go through allthat again, no, I just no way.
And I mean, I mean, there's, youknow, a lot of awful stuff that
happened before them, too, youknow, and I don't really need to
spew all the details oranything, but it um, you know,

(01:17:17):
at a certain point, people haveto have read lines, whether it's
in their personal life, or, youknow, with the powers that be,
you know, healthy boundaries areimportant. And, you know, for
me, it's been hard because, youknow, as a kid, I wasn't able to
have boundaries. So, like, beingable to establish them, for me
is like a lifelong struggle, orhas been, you know, I'm like, a

(01:17:40):
33. So I'm not that old, Iguess. But, um, it's definitely
taken a long time. For me totell people, I don't like being
treated that way. Like,normally, I just take it, you
know, and, you know, that'ssomething I have to learn. I
mean, we all have stuff that,you know, we've had to deal
with, because of, you know, howwe grew up. And, you know,

(01:18:02):
everyone's case is different,obviously. But I don't know, I
mean, it's been, it's definitelybeen, that's been a particular
challenge. And in my case, and,um, you know, having low self
esteem sucks. You know,especially when you're like,

(01:18:22):
working in an environment likealternative media, where so many
people are not like that, andhave really high self esteem.
And, you know, some of them areprobably, you know, on the
narcissistic spectrum a bit too,and obsessed with, you know,
influencer status, where I feellike, you know, those tendencies
we were talking about earlier onsocial media, I feel like for

(01:18:44):
people that do have thosetendencies, once they have a
massive following, and, youknow, a bunch of followers that
has to go into overdrive forsome people. Yeah. Want to go
ahead, go ahead. Yeah, well, youknow, in my particular case, you
know, I was told, when I brokeup with this person that, you
know, I couldn't break up withthem, they told me, because this

(01:19:09):
was their chance to make it anindependent media by being
associated with me. They, Imean, they essentially told me
that they've been using me thewhole time. And like, I don't
care about this stuff at all.Like, I will be very happy when
this whole ID driver's licensefor the Internet stuffs rolls
out, because I can go like, playwith my kids and garden and do

(01:19:32):
stuff that I actually like, youknow, right and not have to
report on like, Insane Clownworld dystopia every day and be
stuck on a screen constantly.You know, but I mean, there's
people that are willing to, youknow, trap someone in a
relationship by impregnatingthem and all this stuff just to
get that stuff. I mean, it'smental and like, makes me also

(01:19:56):
really think you know aboutalternative media. I mean, after
that experience and in adifferent way, you know, because
I always wanted to think thatoh, well, people that see stuff
is anti system and antiestablishment are, you know,
they're not going to be likethose guys. Right? And you know,

(01:20:17):
at the end of the day, I thinkso I mean, even if a lot of
people in alternative media,maybe they didn't start off that
way, I think that same modelthat we were talking about
earlier, exactly, over time, hasled some people, more people
than before in alternative mediaand independent media to really
be all about the followers andthe clicks and the money, the

(01:20:39):
revenue model, it's definitelygotten pretty far away from,
from the truth telling and theintegrity and being better than
MSM, I think a lot of, you know,influencers, quote unquote, and
alternative media haveessentially become MSM spouting
a different variety of talkingpoints at the end of the day.
And it's really disappointing.So, I don't know, I mean, I

(01:21:05):
good. Well, I think also, like,what there needs to be more of
an alternative media, if we'regoing to differentiate ourselves
from mainstream media is beauthentic, you know, and I think
there's not enough authenticity.I think there was earlier on,
you know, if you think back manyyears ago to when it was sort of
just starting, and I thinkpeople, you know, with time can

(01:21:28):
tell, at least, you know, peoplethat are more critically
thinking can sort of sniff outwho's authentic and who's not
pretty easily over time. Youknow, because people will tell
you who they are. Eventually,you know, and but I think, you
know, even in the politicalsphere, for example, so I don't
want to dunk on on Robert F.Kennedy. I mean, I think some

(01:21:49):
people can imagine that I don'tlike his Israel position, right.
Yeah. But you know, I've methim. And he's always been really
nice to me. When my son was inthe hospital, he sent me an
email saying he was praying I'min that was really nice. He
didn't have to do that, youknow, you know, I don't think
he's a bad guy. But I think, youknow, whoever told him to run

(01:22:12):
for office, or it was his idea.He was given bad advice. And I
think this happens to a lot ofpeople that run for office with
good intentions. They pander. Imean, someone asked me at the
Bitcoin Conference, how I feltabout Robert F. Kennedy. And I
was like, you know, when youreally love a video game, and

(01:22:33):
then it's really successful, andthen the company comes almost
always Electronic Arts, and thenthey come in, they try and dumb
it down so that more people buythe next game, and then they
ruin it, by trying to like makeit appeal to more people. That's
what happens when someone youyou like or want to, like, runs
for office, right? I agree, atleast Yeah, that's how I feel

(01:22:56):
about it. And so you know, Ithink if Robert F Kennedy, or
someone like him, had gone intothis being like, you know what,
I'm going to keep authenticviews, and I'm not going to
pander to powerful groups andlobbies, they're just going to
be authentic and say what theyreally think. And even if some
people don't like it, peoplelike the authenticity because
everyone in political officesinauthentic pretty much, you

(01:23:20):
know, exactly that is, peoplewant something real, because
everything's freaking fake, youknow? Yeah, it's everywhere.
Yeah,

RC (01:23:29):
I was just gonna say on a couple things in general, you
know, you point out the, thesocial media aspect of it is
that on the other side of that,the other way around, is that
you're also being overwhelmedwith negativity all the time,
from people, you know, weanybody in this field, you know,
well, that you up, you do ashow, and you get half the
comments, or people just veryjust vitriol, just negative

(01:23:50):
angry mean things. And thatbuilds up to, you know, and that
has an effect. And by the way Ithought about that is, you know,
to your point about social,independent media, and how a lot
of them have kind of con gonedown that same path. I think
some of that's intentionalpeople that just really don't
care about money, but a lot ofmoney might be inadvertent, you
know, we're because they're inthis cycle. We talked about in
the beginning, that what socialmedia does to you that you just

(01:24:12):
find yourself in this position.And now at the end, like you've
been speaking about aboutTwitter, you know, that now
you've got this model. That's,it's like this quiet killer
where people didn't realize thisbuilding, and suddenly they're
mixed up in this, their entireindustry, have they built
hinging on Twitter, ad revenue,you know, and it's like, it's,
you can see, you know, thatyeah, you know, it's

WW (01:24:32):
the ad revenue. Yeah, the ad revenue sharing thing has taken
it to a next level, becausethey've monetized engagement.
And so you had like, you and Iboth talk commented on some guy
that had viral tweets about Mauifor tweeting something that was
totally fake and saying it wasMaui, and we both got blocked.

(01:24:54):
Right, but that guy got a ton ofengagement. And he he's part of
that program. him, right? Sohe's made a bunch of money, just
saying whatever. And so peoplecan say now post any sort of
thing that they think is gonnaget a reaction, whether negative
or positive, most likelynegative, right and make money

(01:25:15):
off of it. Well, I

RC (01:25:16):
would say, though that I think, obviously, we have free
speech in mind, even though it'snot what Twitter's doing that
they should be allowed to saythat which I'm sure you agree
with. But what I see happening,which is interesting is they're
censoring things that are true,which is actually happening, and
then almost raising up thisstuff that's false. And what I
think is truly happening isthey're creating what they've
always said the independentmedia is, and it hasn't always
been, like, we're all just inthis for the money where the

(01:25:37):
money is barely ever been therefor anybody in this field, where
it suddenly they're likecreating this loop, right,
totally rush for fake news, likeactual fake information, and
then they can point at it.

WW (01:25:47):
Exactly. Yeah, I think that's part of it. Because I
mean, if you see, you know,Moscon, new Twitter is being
part of this technocratic systemeventually. And that's the
ambition that Musk has for it.Right. And they have to find a
way to sort of, you know,essentially destroy independent
media. And so part of that isgoing to be an attack on the

(01:26:09):
credibility of people thataren't mainstream media, or
approved media. And people likethat, obviously, play into it.
It's an old tactic of poisoningthe well, right. So like the
welcome be full of clean water,but you put like a dropper to a
poison, and then you ruin thewhole thing. Right? And they can
point to that and be like that,well, all the waters gross,

(01:26:32):
don't use it. So, um, you know,it's essentially the same goal
at the end of the day, I think,um, but, you know, it's not just
that to. So, you know, I thinkthere's a lot of people and, you
know, this is true ofnarcissists. Also there's like,
an addiction, in my experienceanyway, to drama and conflict.

(01:26:52):
If it's not there, they have tocreate it, because they need
that fighting, they getsomething out of it, you know,
the constant back and forth andthe, and whatever. And for some
people that you know, it'sonline, like arguing online,
right? And not necessarilyeveryone that argues online is a
narcissist. I'm not saying that.But I think the same sort of
addictive stuff that happens ina person's brain when they get

(01:27:13):
likes and followers, and lots ofshares. Some people get addicted
to arguing constantly and onlinegives them you know, that the
means to do that, and then youcan monetize it on top of it,
and then have it everywhere ineveryone's face viral promoted,
and all of a sudden, Twitter isjust full of this toxic stuff.

RC (01:27:35):
Yeah, totally. You know, it's an interesting thing that
we don't like, I don't knowenough about the site like the
actual physiology. That's theright word, like the chemical
makeup of what happens in thisprocess in people's minds. But
one thing I've read about in thepast is you know, that people
like for instance, taking thethe argument argumentation on
Twitter, in the back of the whatthat does for you, and in most
cases for people, when you getinto an argument, or a fight,

(01:27:58):
it's cortisol, right? Your fightor flight you're fighting, you
know, but what happens forpeople that are doing this, you
begin to change the way youryour brain works to where you're
producing a different you get aplot, like a pleasure response
from making people angry, andthat it just it rewires your
brain. Oh, that's terrifying. Imean, I think that's part of
what's happening.

WW (01:28:18):
Yeah, that's very possible. I didn't know that. That's
crazy. That's crazy. You can getpleasure from making someone
angry.

RC (01:28:24):
Well, we know that exists. You know, there are people just
like, like people that are, youknow, they were they hurt
themselves during sex. And, youknow, so there's an overlap
there for some people, but Idon't think it's intentional for
some of these people. You know,we're, you're just crazy

WW (01:28:37):
to me. Yeah. Good. No, I just said, it's crazy. To me it
mainly because he like, becauseof how I grew up. And there was
this constant generation ofdrama in the household, like, I
hate conflict. I hate it whenpeople get it. Like, let's not
fight let's, how can we defusethis situation? Let's deal with

(01:28:59):
this later. And, I mean, it'sjust a nightmare. For me. When
someone's angry, I'm like, Howdo I calm them down is like how
I react to it not I just can'timagine being like, that was
awesome. I made the mad and

RC (01:29:12):
feeling that feeling you get when I know exactly what you're
talking about it feeling youcan't shake when you walk away
from some negativeconfrontation. At least for me,
you it sounds like people withemotions, that you just feel
this negativity that you can'tget rid of. And people are
either like that to begin with,or they end up seeking that, you
know, and it just becomessomething they stretch. Like I

(01:29:33):
grew up with people that used toget, you know, they they
actually would love to get infights growing up in high
school, you know, and that's thesame thing. You're producing a
feeling that you enjoy throughthat, which it shouldn't be the
way that works. It should be theopposite. But you know, people
change that or they're born thatway. You know, I think there's
something in there that has todo with exactly what we're
talking about. I'm just noteducated enough on that process

(01:29:53):
to speak on it. But that'sinteresting to me.

WW (01:29:56):
Well, there's a whole bunch of different aspects of this
that have been like there's alot of studies I mean, I'll see
what I can throw in the shownotes. But yeah, I mean, there's
people that have devoted theirlives essentially to studying a
lot of these dynamics and, andthings like that, not just not
necessarily like how the powersthat be do it right, but in like
interpersonal relationships. Andthere's a guy named like that.

RC (01:30:18):
There's a guy named Simon Sinek that I've referenced many
times in the past, he kind ofdoesn't overlap like that. Well,
it's actually more so about whyour so called leaders aren't
actually leaders. It's a reallygreat it's called Why leaders
eat last I think, is when he wasa title. And he gets into that
exact point, the, the, you know,cortisol, endorphin, dopamine,
serotonin, and, you know, goesover how each one and how it

(01:30:40):
applies. His whole point,though, is that you get people
that are, you know, theybasically act in their own
interest. It's the same kind ofconversation we're having. And
his larger point is that trueleaders put themselves last. But
that's the opposite of we'redealing with today, right? We're
we're dealing with people thatare saying, No, I need to eat
first. Because if I don't, Ican't lead properly, even if you
have to die to do it. Like thoseare?

WW (01:31:00):
Sure. No, most definitely. Well, I think that's the
narcissism thing, too. Becauseultimately, they're, you know,
the people you're talking about,right? They're the center, they
center everything based on theirexperience. And their experience
is what matters. And, you know,if you have a conversation with
one, they'll frequently talkabout themselves for most of it.

(01:31:23):
And, you know, that extremefocus on them makes it very hard
for them to think about othersfirst. And obviously, if it's
hard for them to think aboutothers first and minor
situations, in dire situations,it's impossible, right?

RC (01:31:40):
Absolutely. I mean, they almost create a situation with
both in relationships, as wellas government where they create
like, like, as if you becomepresident, you you then convince
yourself that you are the mostimportant person, even if you
may be in some cases like sothat dynamic plays.

WW (01:31:56):
Yes, I think that's probably true. But if you think about the
current president, I don't thinkhe even knows what day it is. So
I agree with that.

RC (01:32:04):
Let's talk about being a congress. Presidents. Yeah.
Yeah. I think Trump's a prettygood example. But you know,
people freak out about thecomparison. You know, if
personal power in general, youknow, you convince yourself that
you are the most important andthen it's like the self serving.
You know, it's interesting, inthat I think in a relationship
is more more of a good point isthat you create a situation

(01:32:26):
where you convince yourself thatthis person couldn't exist
without you. And that's like aself serving problem. You know,

WW (01:32:33):
you brought up Trump and it's crazy for me, because you
see stuff posted by Trumpsupporters. It's obviously not
all Trump supporters, butthere's like a group of them, I
guess they're probably sort ofin the queue anon group. But
they basically talk like,Trump's going to come back to
office and they're like, it'sgonna be biblical. And they talk
all about how he is was chosenby God or chosen by Jesus, or

(01:32:57):
he's this and that. I mean, it'slike all this religious stuff
about Trump, how he's basicallylike the Messiah. And can you
imagine the guy that's alreadylike known for having
narcissistic tendencies? Andthen he has followers who are
like that and treating him likehe's God on earth? Oh, man did
that's scary. He probably lovesbeing president.

RC (01:33:17):
Oh, yeah. She goes back to the point you made earlier is he
probably also enjoys thenegative attention just as much
to some degree, you know?

WW (01:33:25):
Yeah, it's possible when it surprised me, honestly. Well,
yeah. Because I mean, this wholething with the indictments,
you're having, like all thepeople that hate Trump being
like, yeah, and all the peoplethat love Trump being like, Oh,
look, he's such a hero, becauselook out persecuted he is. Yeah.

RC (01:33:37):
Well, either way, you're at the center of all of it. That's
really the center of all of it.

WW (01:33:41):
Exactly. Yeah.

RC (01:33:45):
Why people still exist, and they really do you know, that
they're like, my prediction willbe that Trump if he wins, that
they're going to say, see, wetold you he'd be put back in
office. It's like, wait aminute, that's not what you
said. You said he would be putback in because he, you know,
it's gonna be another narrativewhere they justify what they
predicted what happened, butdidn't the way they said it
would queue on on it's just a,there's gonna people are gonna

(01:34:05):
write books about how crazy thatwas. For decades back.

WW (01:34:09):
Yeah, but I mean, it's still going on. And there's different
segments of Q anon Right? Likethere's the Q anon people that
were like, Okay, I'll trust theplan for a while. And then there
were the Q anon people thattraveled to Dealey Plaza in
Texas to see John F. Kennedy Jr.Come back from the dead and take
over the country.

RC (01:34:25):
Seriously. It means it's probably not not to force the
the overlap, but you could makean argument that that's actually
part of what's happening withthem to what we're talking about
today. Like, like that they'reat the center of the story. Oh,
right. No, and nobody else does.And, you know, part of that's
there too, because the evidenceisn't there. We all know that.
They manufacture this reality.So they feel the center of

(01:34:47):
something that could be part of

WW (01:34:48):
it. Yeah, totally. No, that definitely happens. For sure.
And they, in my experience, theyhave to be the hero and the
victim simultaneously of everyThe story they tell they're
never the bad guy. Yeah. It'svery bizarre. But again, you
know, for someone who is tryingto cover up in an extreme way

(01:35:11):
extremely wounded inferiorfeeling self, they have to
project something that istotally different from that
reality. And so, it, it seemsgood to them and makes them feel
good. But to people that aren'tthat, I guess for lack of a
better word, like distorted,eventually, when it becomes
like, so disconnected fromactual reality, the way they

(01:35:35):
talk about themselves, you know,you can sort of start to tell,
yeah, right, because like, theydon't, what their that whole
false self isn't anchored inreality at all right? And so it
can go to places that otherpeople will notice is not in
line with reality. And theywon't necessarily tell that
person but like, they'll be, youknow, people will notice, not

(01:35:57):
everyone, you know, because, youknow, narcissists are also
inherently charming, andcharismatic, what they project,
right. That's how they ropepeople in in the first place.
And they're very good atconvincing you they're great, at
least for a while. Yeah, I thinkit's much easier for them to
maintain it online, to behonest, because it's less work
than having to maintain it inperson, when you have to

(01:36:17):
maintain it in person, I feellike it lasts less, much less
time. Because online, you don'thave to put that much time and
energy to it. So you canperpetuate it for years,
depending on the frequency,you're talking to the people
you're trying to convince.You're so amazing.

RC (01:36:31):
Yeah. And you also don't have any like real actual
relationship is superficial,like they see you through this.

WW (01:36:36):
Exactly.

RC (01:36:37):
You have to Yeah, exactly.

WW (01:36:39):
So we've been going almost a good while now. Anything you
want to add that we haven'tbrought up yet, or?

RC (01:36:48):
No, I just I, you know, I would just just in general say
that, you know, I know that thissome of this stuff. And it was
very hard for you to talk about.And I just want to just, you
know, commend you on that, ingeneral. And I think that what I
was asking before is, you know,clearly, it's it's just hard to
talk about, but I think thatpeople, just by hearing what
you're discussing here today,that it's one of the things that
stands out to me is not justacknowledging that this exists,

(01:37:10):
but finding a path away from it.Right. So we've talked about
this, the government, you know,but like, like you said, there's
a lot of people that are livingin these relationships, and
maybe haven't even recognizedthat yet, you know, so
hopefully, what you'rediscussing can allow them to see
it, you know, and then give themthe courage, like you have to
step away from it and makechanges in their life that can
hopefully stop that fromhappening in the future. So I

(01:37:31):
just, you know, I think it's animportant conversation. And I
know, it's hard to talk about,so thank you for setting it up.

WW (01:37:36):
Well, you know, I have more to share, I'll probably, you
know, tack it on to the end ofthis episode at some point,
because, you know, I, I wouldlike people to know, you know,
why I care so much about them,you know, what I what I do and
where it came from, but I didn'twant that to dominate the
conversation, because like we'vebeen talking about today, I
think there's a much moreconversation to be had about

(01:37:59):
that. And, you know, I feel likedoing it this way, you know,
people can get somethingpositive out of it.

RC (01:38:04):
Absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, that's what I'm saying
is, I think people will listento this. And, you know, it'll
give them the courage to try tomake these steps for themselves.
And I think that's positive, nomatter how you look at it.

WW (01:38:14):
Well, you know, in my case, you know, when you select
gaslighting, when we talkedabout earlier, you have a hard
time, it becomes hard to knowhow you experience reality, if
that's actually how it is likeyou doubt yourself all the time
you're like instilled with thisdoubt, in your like in your
like, is it really is me that Ireally experienced it that way.
And you know, really, the onlyway to get out of that is to

(01:38:36):
take notes of what youexperience when it happens. And
you refer back to it, that ithad like a record, you know, I
had to do that. And it wasimmensely helpful. But the other
thing was that I had toliterally immerse myself in
stories of other people that hadbeen in relationships like this.
I had to, I had to read a loadof it from all sorts of

(01:38:57):
different people all sorts ofdifferent. I mean, there's a
whole Reddit about this, andlike all different forums and
websites where people talk abouttheir experiences. And that was
really helpful and likeaffirming because it's like
hard, especially when there'skids involved. It's like a hard
thing to and,

RC (01:39:15):
yes, we didn't even get into that aspect of it. And just that
that makes it exponentially moredifficult.

WW (01:39:21):
Yeah, well, you know, I don't really need to get too
into it, I guess. But it

RC (01:39:27):
was. I didn't mean for now. I just meant to point out. Yeah,
go ahead.

WW (01:39:31):
Well, it's all a matter of disentangling yourself. So like
when you're talking about goingNo Contact is a solution to like
the powers that be or a toxicabuser in your life. The degrees
of entanglement are differentfor everyone. So there's some
people that like live a certainway and they're not very
entangled with the powers thatbe and there's some people that

(01:39:52):
are very entangled, right, andso obviously, depending on your
individual case, or therelationship you're trying to
get out of it. There's differentdegrees of entanglement. And so
depending on how entangled youare there's, you know, that that
mean, that sort of defines howdifficult it is to go no
contact? You know?

RC (01:40:12):
Absolutely, I guess I would just end with saying that, you
know, I think that one of themain kind of morals of all this
story is that, you know, it ispossible, right, you know, not
to make it to the, you know,grandiose or fluffy, or I'm
gonna call it, but I do thinkthat people can, it's possible,
you know, you can make thesechanges, and you can better
yourself in 1000 different ways,but in particular, just

(01:40:33):
recognizing this and growingfrom it, you know, and I think
that's, again, that people canhear this and give them that
first step. You know, that's areally positive thing. Yeah.

WW (01:40:42):
But the thing about No Contact is that people take a
time to realize that's thepoint. And the reason, or that's
what they have to do. And thereason it takes them a while is
because they think the personwill change. People like this
don't change, no matter what youdo, you cannot change them, they
have to change them. And thesame is true for the powers that
be in the government. Nothing isgoing to change the government,

(01:41:06):
you can vote as hard as youwant, the system will not
change. That's the whole pointof this, you know, what's
basically become a meme now ofthe deep state, the deep state
is about the shadow governmentthat really control stuff. And
the elected offices areessentially fronts for them at
the end of the day, right? Sovote harder, it's not going to

(01:41:29):
change. So you can participatein the political circus, that is
the election, and think thatyou're going to change the
system from within by voting forguy, XY and Z. But that's not
going to happen, it will stillbe there, it will still be the
same. And the only way to freeyour life of the insanity going

(01:41:50):
free yourself from the insanitythat they are trying to impose
on you is to have nothing to dowith them. Period, right?
Because it's they're not goingto change. So once you realize
that the system or the personthat you're trying to avoid
disentangling yourself from ismaking you miserable, is never
going to change, no contactbecomes the only possible way

(01:42:14):
forward, ultimately.

RC (01:42:16):
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's the government aspect
here is really the overarchingpoint of all of it, you know,
that people need to learn fromthis and stop leaning into
things that are affecting theirlives in negative ways.

WW (01:42:28):
Well, you know, like I said earlier, how, like, I grew up
feeling like I deserve to betreated like shit, right?
There's people that will take somuch shit from the government,
and not do anything about it.And if you think about, like,
what people are enduring rightnow, and no one's still really
doing much about it. It's kindof it's really the same thing. I

(01:42:49):
think people, not just in theUS, but really everywhere are so
conditioned and used to beingtreated, like, like, like dirt
by the government, as like,subhuman by the government,
people are just used to it. Andit's been normalized. Right? And
it really shouldn't be

RC (01:43:06):
scary. Think about?

WW (01:43:08):
Well, I think it's I think it's pretty true, though, right?
I mean, if you look at rightnow, you know, how much money is
being sent into essentially ablack hole and Ukraine, and
people in Maui are getting like$700 That last, like homes that
are worth like, you know,millions or less, but you know,
definitely way more than $700.And that's supposed to be like,

(01:43:30):
I mean, it's ridiculous. It'sridiculous.

RC (01:43:32):
It that's meant to be and so

WW (01:43:35):
there's, you know, an infinite list of American
tragedies. Exactly. And there'san infinite list of like,
American tragedies, where it'sjust the government did nothing,
or it made the situation worse.And a lot of times for the
benefit of people that financethe politicians, or the benefit
of the government itself. It'sbeen going on for a long time, I

(01:43:57):
think the difference now is thatthere's a growing awareness of
it. But we have to do somethingwith that awareness. You know,
exactly. Because if you'reaware, you're in abusive
relationship, and you do nothingto make it better for you or
your kids. You know, what goodis the awareness? Right? And the
same is true of the governmentand the quote unquote, system,

(01:44:19):
the powers that be if you'resuper aware of how this is, that
system is working to enslave youand your children, and you're
doing nothing about it and goingon, like, you can stay entangled
to a system that wants toessentially destroy you, to
control you. Why are you nottrying to end your connection to

(01:44:43):
that, you know,

RC (01:44:44):
yeah, exactly. So that's just got to take that first
step.

WW (01:44:48):
Totally. And, you know, it is a step thing. I mean, I think
some people here you know,people in independent media, say
like, build a new system, exitand build and they just assume
like, Oh, I'll do that later andassume It's like not a gradual
thing, but you have to takesmall steps, whether it's an
abusive relationship, or, youknow, trying to get off grid or
like off of the system in someway, you can't just do it all,

(01:45:11):
like, bam, overnight, right? Youknow, these are all things that
you have to take step towards,and people have to start doing
it at some point. So, you know,maybe talking about in this
context of both, you know, theparallels between how it works
in interpersonal relationships,and how it works at the Maker
level, and maybe it can helpsome people realize that by
looking at it in a differentway, because personally, I

(01:45:33):
hadn't really noticed thoseparallels so much before. Um,
and I felt like it was helpfulto me, it was sort of like an
eye opener, you know, for me,when I was like, reflecting on a
lot of this stuff, you know, afew weeks ago, and, you know,
hopefully it helps somebodyelse. And if it does, that would

(01:45:53):
be awesome.

RC (01:45:55):
I learned plenty today, honestly, just listening to the
stories and stuff that I lookedup beforehand. And yeah, so
thanks for setting this up. Iappreciate it. I think it was
powerful.

WW (01:46:03):
Yeah. Well, thanks, Ryan. And thanks for joining me. So,
everybody, thanks so much forlistening, I really want to give
my deepest appreciation topeople that support this podcast
and unlimited hangout. I know,I've not obviously been able to
put out much content at all, forthe past 10 weeks or so, because
of, you know, the obviouscircumstances. But man, I, I

(01:46:29):
just can't describe how gratefulI am for that support during a
really difficult time. Because,you know, I don't, I don't have
support from my parents, I don'thave support from my kid's
father. And, you know, it'sreally been, you know, you guys
that have really, you know, keptthings going for me, and I just,
I can't think thank you guysenough. So hopefully, you

(01:46:52):
enjoyed this podcast, I know,it's a little different than,
you know, things I normally do.And for those that are
interested, after, you know, Isign off here with Ryan, I'll be
sharing a little bit more about,you know, what I mentioned in
the intro, you know, giving anhonest answer to some of those

(01:47:14):
questions and talking about someof those things that are hard
for me to talk about, butultimately made me who I am. And
you know, why I ended up doingwhat I do and why I care about
truth. And, you know, what'sreal at the end of the day, so
thank you, Brian. And thanks,everybody, for listening. All

(01:47:34):
right, for those of you stilllistening, this is the part
where I guess I get morepersonal than I've ever gotten,
since I have, you know,developed any sort of online
platform of significance. So,you know, I wanted to have the
focus of the discussion not beabout me and my experience,
because I think there's, youknow, as I talked about, with

(01:47:55):
Ryan, something much bigger totake away from all of this, but
like I said earlier, you know,for me, personally, I just don't
feel like I can, you know,continue living in a way where I
feel like, I am afraid of twopeople in particular in my

(01:48:15):
personal life, and it's not thatI you know, I'm consciously
afraid of them all the time, butI've, you know, been held back
from sharing my experience, and,you know, answering questions
and interviews when I'm askedabout my past, and, you know,
etc, etc. because I was worriedabout what they might do. And,
you know, the core of that is,you know, still being afraid of

(01:48:38):
them. And, as I've said, on, youknow, numerous interviews, I
feel like when you have any sortof fear about somebody, you
know, they have power over you.And so, you know, this is, you
know, part of my, you know,attempt to not have to be a
factor in my life anymore. To bereally open with people about,

(01:49:03):
you know, some of the, you know,the questions I've been asked in
the past, about, you know, why Ido the work I do and why I care
about this stuff. And, you know,that I felt like I haven't
really been able to answer fullyand, you know, on all them, you
know, other reasons that I sortof touched on earlier on in the
in the podcast, so I'm going totry and not have this run too

(01:49:24):
long, because this episode, Ireally got, you know, a little
on on the long side, but I'llyou know, I'll do my best to get
the pertinent points across. SoI grew up in Sarasota, Florida.
And my dad's a lawyer, my mom'sa homemaker. And you know, I had
a lot of problems with my momgrowing up. You know, I have a

(01:49:48):
sister who's about 14 months,exactly more or less 14 months
younger than me, so about a yearapart. And you know, ever since
she was born, you'll see she hadsome we relatively minor health
problems I had to go to a lot ofdoctor's visits, though, but it
wasn't anything, you know, likewhat my son has had to go
through recently. And he, andmy, my mom kind of used that as

(01:50:13):
an excuse to say that, you know,she couldn't handle two kids. So
I got, you know, she wasoverwhelmed by my daughter,
Civilis, she was overwhelmed bymy sister having a lot of
doctor's appointments and beingsort of sickly, at times, I
don't really remember my sisterbeing that sick. But, you know,

(01:50:33):
definitely a few things here andthere did happen. But, you know,
for various reasons, includingthat, and my mom saying that she
was stressed all the time, I wasbasically raised by my
grandparents, I got sent overthere, probably at least once a
week, for a couple days, until Iwas, I don't know, probably like

(01:50:53):
10 or 11. And, you know,sometimes like summer vacation,
you know, for for months. Andso, you know, I felt like, in a
lot of ways, I was raised justas much by them, if not my own
parents. But my mom in general,you know, when I was home, made
it very clear that she was apretty withholding mother, I

(01:51:18):
guess, and, you know, wasn'ttrying to think of the right way
to put it, not really interestedin me and made it really clear
that I was sort of like the oddman out, you know, and so that
kind of feeling I had from avery young age. And, you know,
sometimes it was really nasty.Like, I remember one time in the

(01:51:40):
car, when I was seven, my momwas telling me that if she knew
how I would have turned out, shewould have made sure to not have
had me, you know, like,basically saying she would have
terminated them. My pregnancy,if she'd known how I'd turned
out later, and stuff like thatkind of messed up stuff to say,
to a seven year old, but um, itgot a lot worse for me around

(01:52:05):
the time I was 13 or so. Andthat basically happened because
my mom's brother, who, you know,my sister, and I loved and
thought he was a really lovelyguy. You know, always really
fun, did nice things for us paida lot of attention to us. He,
you know, I was having problemswith my mom, because I started

(01:52:28):
dating a guy that she didn'tlike. And so she wanted me to
break up with him. And it waslike my first love. So I like
didn't want to so we wereclashing about that, I guess.
And somewhere in there, shecalled her brother and blamed
him for all the problems thatshe and I were having. And she
lied about the nature of blissproblems. So she didn't say that

(01:52:49):
it was because I was dating aguy or anything. She said it was
because I'd gotten into drugs,which was not true at all, at
the time. And little did I knowthat my uncle had previously had
drug and alcohol issues. And soshe blamed him, you know, for
all of these things. And I don'tknow exactly the nature of the
conversation, because I didn'thear the conversation. But

(01:53:11):
shortly after it happened, mymom came and bragged about it to
me and bragged about how myuncle sobbed on the phone. And I
don't know, it didn't reallymake sense to me at the time. I
mean, I remember being just sortof like flabbergasted about why
my mom would make up somethinglike that, and why she bragged

(01:53:32):
about making him upset. But Imean, if you if you know the
lady, she does kind of seem toget off sometimes on dragging
people down and then kickingthem when they're down. And a
lot of stuff, you know, Iremember from after this, and
before this, that, you know, shehad complained a lot about how
how growing up, she felt like,you know, my grandma, her mother

(01:53:55):
paid more attention to him thanto her and that her grandmother
had been the same way and thathe'd been given all this
attention that she'd been deniedand expressed a lot of anger and
jealousy about him. So I'm sureshe probably picked on him all
the time. But anyway, this wasthe first time I'd ever heard
about it. And I thought it wasweird. And I didn't get why she

(01:54:17):
would insert this, you knowthing about drugs that didn't
happen. And I was like, How doesthat even relate to uncle, my
uncle because I didn't knowabout any of this stuff in his
past at the time either. But Ifound out about it, you know,
the next day and the day after,because after that, my mom had
made that phone call to him thatyou know, the next day he was

(01:54:40):
found dead had apparently killedhimself. And you know, my mom
knew that I knew about the phonecall. And obviously the only
other person besides me thatknew about it was gone. So You
know, my mom, pretty clearly tome was, you know,

(01:55:07):
terrified, I guess that I wouldtell someone that, you know, and
they might believe me. And so,you know, my mom basically
started this big smear campaignabout me, within the family, at
the church, my family went toamong the parents of kids that

(01:55:28):
attended my school, and, youknow, all of this stuff, saying
that I, I was crazy, I was aliar, I had all these behavioral
problems, I mean, just making upa whole bunch of making up a
whole bunch of stuff that thatwasn't true. And, you know, I
did kind of try and, you know,after a year of that did act

(01:55:51):
out, because it was reallyunfair. And, you know, my mom
did a lot of other things to tryand isolate me, you know, she
grounded me all the time, shewouldn't let me have friends
outside of school, like I kindof go over to anyone's house
ever. And a lot of, but she'dlet my you know, my sister go
out and do stuff. And my dad wasworking all the time. So a lot
of times, I was alone, with herat the house, and she just did

(01:56:14):
really crazy stuff, stuff thatwas really psychologically
disturbing. She didn't let mehave any privacy. I mean, she
even took the locks off of thebathroom door that I use, so
that she could like scream at mewhen I'm using the bathroom. And
like all of this stuff, thatjust, I mean, it seems so crazy
in retrospect, but at the time,I mean, it was obviously it was

(01:56:37):
obviously awful. And, you know,she basically made it her, or
her mission to make me terrifiedof her, um, you know, which she
kind of didn't succeed in doingfor a time. But you know, I
wasn't going to tell anybodyanyway, just because I was

(01:56:57):
really close with mygrandparents, her parents, my
uncle's parents, who, because Ijust seen how devastated they
were after my uncle died. And Ididn't want to cause them any
more suffering. And I did tryand tell some people I tried to
tell my dad at one point. Hedoesn't remember that happening.

(01:57:22):
But you know, now he believesme, after I told them, you know,
more recently, because, youknow, everyone knows how my mom
is at this point. And I toldanother person in the family
that later on became sort oflike a caretaker to my my
grandparents. And, you know, shebasically swore me to secrecy

(01:57:44):
and said, not to tell them notto tell anybody until after my
grandparents passed away, thatthey wouldn't be able to handle
it. And so, you know, my momobviously didn't know about
that. So she was, you know,trying to pursue her own tactics
to make sure I didn't talk. And,you know, my sister didn't know,
I've offered to tell her, butshe's basically told me she

(01:58:07):
doesn't, doesn't want to know.But, um, you know, I've pretty
much been carrying on a reallyunpleasant secret for a really
long time. My grandparents diedon. I guess, back in stage, it
was 2018. So it's, it's been afew years. And, you know, I've
still sort of been keeping thesecret, I guess, but not

(01:58:29):
intentionally, just because, youknow, I don't, I don't like
talking about it. It was areally awful experience. My mom
was essentially trying to ruinmy life, trying to get me to
kill myself, like my unclekilled himself, you know, would
guide me on about that stuff andhow I shouldn't be here. And,

(01:58:52):
you know, everything about mewas awful. And, you know, just a
lot of just a lot of reallypainful memories that I don't
really like to look back on anddiscuss. And so, you know, one
of the reasons that I care somuch about the work that I do is
that, you know, for for severalyears, I felt like nobody

(01:59:15):
believed me about what was goingon with my mom. I had one lady
that did, I started from all thestress of everything going on at
home. I started having like aneurological problems, like some
form of epilepsy, but it wascompletely stress related. And

(01:59:37):
so I got sent to a neurologistwho then referred me to some
specialist lady that was like aneurologist psychologists, you
know, had both of thosespecialties. And you know, that
that lady knew what was goingon. And she probably saved my
life to be honest, because mymom wasn't going to let me leave

(01:59:59):
the house. So I tried to leaveas soon as I turned 18. And, you
know, was complicated. So, youknow, I couldn't. And then I
tried, I found one place I couldstay, but it ended up only being
for a week. And, you know, itwas, it was a complicated time.
But anyway, this lady wrote aletter to the college I got

(02:00:20):
accepted to. And they let meapply for college and financial
aid as an independent, so I wasable to, you know, still go to
college and not have to worryabout having to stay stuck at my
parents house indefinitely,until my mom approved me going
to college, if I acquiesced to,you know, various demands that I

(02:00:44):
wasn't interested in himmeeting. So, you know, sorry, I
got off on a tangent there. Butbasically, the reason I care a
lot about what I do is because Igot smeared all the time, I only
had one adult, believe me, and Ididn't meet that person until I

(02:01:08):
was like, 18, and my uncle diedwhen I was 13. So I had several
years of being the only personthat really knew the truth,
right. And, you know, beingsurrounded by lies, and, you
know, obviously, when you're ina situation like that, it makes
you care about the truth, anawful lot. And it makes you

(02:01:31):
realize that it's, it's reallyimportant, even if you're the
only person that knows that it'sthe truth. You know, I mean, it
can be lonely sometimes, youknow, whether it's, you know,
something personal, like whatI'm talking about, or, you know,
being too early in realizingthat certain, quote, unquote,
conspiracy theories are true.You know, I think because of a

(02:01:54):
lot of a lot of my experiencesgrowing up, you know, I really
didn't trust authority at all,and so I guess, maybe it was
easier for me to see, than mostpeople that the government lies
all the time. And, you know, tonot necessarily believe people
in power, because, you know, ifit's to their benefit, or they
have something to cover up,they'll lie, even if they're the

(02:02:18):
people that are supposed to careabout, you know, about you more
than anyone else in the world.Right. So, you know, but, you
know, realizing that stuff,pretty young, you know, for me,
I was in college about 21, or 20years old, I'm 33 now that it
was really lonely, then, now,definitely, less so. Right. And

(02:02:40):
the same thing for my personallife, you know, everyone in my
family knows that, what my momis capable of now, because once
I left home, it got directed andother people and now she's more
or less run out of people to, totarget at this point. So you
know, it can be it can be reallylonely, to fight for the truth.

(02:03:04):
And, you know, I guess, eventhough it was really hard and
lonely, as a teenager, you know,I am proud that I never gave in
to that, and always tried totell people when it really
happened, that I wasn't that Iwasn't lying about all this
stuff, and that I wasn't crazyin all of these things. But, you

(02:03:29):
know, it's not exactly what Iwant to talk about in
interviews, when I guess thatget asked about it. So, you
know, I guess from now on, I'llprobably just refer people to
this podcast, so I don't have tokeep having to keep talking
about it. Anyway, so I ended upgoing to college, and you know,
or pretty much broke off tieswith my family, I'd still take

(02:03:51):
calls from my grandparents who Icared about a lot, but they
always tried to get me you know,back talking to my mom trying to
convince me you know, she wasn'tthe way I knew she was and I was
trying to protect them fromknowing how she was right. So
you know, it was hard to reallyhave much contact with my family

(02:04:11):
for a long time and I reallydidn't have any contact with
them at all until I was I don'tknow about the time my daughter
was born was just, you know, theend of 2017
So anyway, I went to college Ididn't have a great social
experience there either becauseI was really after growing up

(02:04:34):
around my mom really tired ofsome this superficial fake stuff
because you know her, you know,false self like, you know, this
podcast has been talking aboutwas projecting sort of this
superficial social, I mean, alot of people around Catella was
fake. I heard people comment onthat on occasion, but you know,

(02:04:57):
it was this kind of like largerthan life social personnel.
Lydian partying and all of thisstuff. And I was really turned
off from that in college and thecollege I went to was full of
mostly rich kids, and I wasprobably the only one there that
was on like 100% financial aidand didn't really have money to
spend on, you know, whatever.So, you know, it's definitely

(02:05:22):
kind of a black sheep there, forsure. I mean, I did get, you
know, didn't take a lot of greatcourses. And I learned a lot on
the academic side of it, had todo a ton of writing, which
obviously has helped me now. Andthat's probably why I can, you
know, write relatively complexpieces pretty quickly, because I
had to do a lot of that incollege, like, the school I went

(02:05:45):
to was really writing intensive,I guess. But anyway, you know, I
just got really fed up with howthings had played out for me,
and I sort of blamed a lot of iton, you know, stuff I noticed
culturally about the US, I justassumed, because of all the
people who'd been around reallymy whole life that pretty much
everyone in the US was, youknow, superficial like that and

(02:06:08):
cared about all this fake stuff.And nothing was really real,
there was no, there was nothinglike authentic is how I felt a
lot of the time. And, you know,around the same time, I also
started getting really sick. AndI went to I tried to go to a
couple doctors, and they werelike, you're fine. There's
nothing wrong with you. And I,like knew something was wrong

(02:06:30):
with me. So, you know, I got toa point where I was so
miserable. I was like, Well, Ican either stay here and be
miserable and probably, youknow, stop at wanting to live
for real. And do the thing Ipromised myself I would never
do. You know, which, because Ifelt like it was like letting my

(02:06:52):
my mom win. Or I, you know, I gosomewhere else and live a
totally new life. And so that'swhen I decided to move to move
to South America, I sold thelittle stuff that I had. And I,
you know, just pretty much lefteverything behind. And I went to
live and work in Peru, I workedon a farm in the middle of

(02:07:15):
nowhere. But the closest majorcity in Peru was Cusco, where
Machu Picchu is for those thatdon't know much about Peru. And
you know, I worked there for awhile and helps a lot with the,
the issue I was having, whichwas mainly digestive related.
But I you know, it took me acouple years to figure out
exactly what was going on. But,you know, I had, there was no

(02:07:40):
electricity where I was working,you know, there was a generator,
but it was turned on once aweek. And you know, it was a lot
of hard manual labor and stuff.But you know, I feel like it was
pretty good for me. Buteventually I ended up butting
heads with the lady that ran iteven though we got on cut along
a lot. But you know, she'd beenisolated for like many years up
there on this mountaintop andwas kind of ornery and developed

(02:08:04):
a drinking problem and it wasjust really hard to to stay
there. And so you know, I endedup leaving and going to Cusco
because I didn't have any moneyreally to go back to the US I
mean Peruvian currency anddoesn't isn't worth as much at
least it wasn't then as the asthe dollar. So I definitely
couldn't afford to go back tothe States. So I worked in Cusco

(02:08:26):
and food service for a couple ofyears. And you know, I made some
friends and life was all right.Until this one week when you
know, everyone was busy and Ididn't know what else to do. So
I went for a walk on this, thispark that wasn't probably like,
you know, five minutes from myhouse up hill. And you know, I'd

(02:08:52):
been there before and stuff butyou know, this time, I shouldn't
have gotten there alone and Iwas sexually assaulted by a
Peruvian guy. And it wasprobably the only time in my
life where I really felt like Iwas gonna die. But you know,
thankfully I did it. And youknow, made it out alive but

(02:09:16):
obviously traumatized from theexperience and I decided, you
know it, I was still going to bestubborn and try and stay in
Cusco but then the guy that didit, found out where I lived and
was like walking in the areawhere I lived and that was

(02:09:36):
really unsettling to me. And somy best friend at the time at
the restaurant I worked at was aChilean guy and he said you know
she likes not like this. Whydon't you come try and give
Chile a chance. And you know Idid he introduced me to one of
his friends from college thatalso had done you know farm
management stuff in the past andyou know he connected on Some

(02:10:00):
said maybe he can help you findsomething to do. And, you know,
that's how I ended up in Chile.So once I got to Chile, things
were rough for the first twoyears for me economically, even
though Chile was definitely amuch better, safer place to live
than Peru. And once I startedwriting, I was able to at least
make enough income to live offof, I started writing as a

(02:10:22):
profession about two years afterI got here. So that's around
like, the last half of 2016. Androughly a year later, my
daughter was born. And during mypregnancy, her dad got involved
with this new agey religion thatI wasn't interested in being a
part of, and things for us gotprogressively more complicated,

(02:10:42):
and also progressively moreunequal to the point where I was
pulling way too much weight interms of my domestic workload.
You know, I was doing prettymuch 100% of childcare, I was
also the breadwinner, winter andthere was a lot of inequality in
our relationship and really, noway to communicate about these
things effectively. And on topof that, these, you know,

(02:11:04):
spiritual differences made itreally hard to continue in that
relationship. And so I ended itaround the time my daughter
turned two, and a few monthslater, you know, the whole world
turned upside down with COVID.And my last child care pretty
abruptly and not long afterthat. The really intense
lockdowns in Chile started whichhonestly were a lot more extreme

(02:11:26):
than the lockdowns implementedin most parts of the West. And
I've talked about this on, youknow, past interviews, and in a
previous podcast. So I wasalready before all of this
feeling, kind of overwhelmedwith work. And you know, with
COVID happening, work was evencrazier for me, because, you

(02:11:49):
know, there was so much goingon. And it seemed like I had to
research so much and urgentlybecause so much enormous stuff
was happening globally, everyday, and everyone was trying to
scramble to figure out, like,what's going on what's going to
happen next, you know, and soon. And then on, you know, on
top of that, I had to juggle,you know, trying to write and

(02:12:09):
produce all this stuff with zerochild care. And, you know,
trying to write why a spunky twoyear old is in the house with
me, and, you know, we can't goanywhere, because everything's
locked down. So after about sixmonths of this, I started
talking to the guy who wasalluded to earlier in this

(02:12:30):
podcast, who is my son's father.So after asking me a lot of
questions about who, you know,myself, and about my life, he
framed himself as being theperfect complement to everything
I lacked at the time, and reallyis the polar opposite of my
daughter's father, you know,promising he would never be like
him, talking about how great hewas with kids, how he would

(02:12:53):
offer exactly the relief thathonestly, at that point in time,
I was really desperate for. AndI think, in retrospect, if I
hadn't been so worn down anddesperate and isolated, I would
have thought a lot more aboutthe situation, before inviting
him down to visit us in Chile,or, or, you know, may not have
even done it at all. But I wasand in this period, you know, I

(02:13:16):
can find it a lot in him. I toldthem a lot about my past my
parents how all that hadaffected me things that had
happened, you know, after I lefthome, and he acted like he was
really empathetic, really cared,that he thought I was so
wonderful, and that we sharedthe strong connection. And there
was this, you know, element ofdestiny to the whole thing. And

(02:13:37):
so he came down at the end of2020. And, you know, for the
time he was here, it was reallynice for both me and my
daughter, because, you know, wefinally weren't alone.
And, but during this time to youknow, he would talk constantly
about how I had to get away fromChile, I needed to escape,
things were only going to getworse and worse. The people were

(02:13:58):
awful. Everything about it wasawful, and you know, made me
feel really afraid to stay overtime. And he also told me that
his country, the United Kingdom,you know that things were in as
bad as they were in Chile, thatmy daughter could go to daycare
over there, things were stillopen and life would be better.

(02:14:19):
And, you know, when I agreed togo with him to check it out, he
told me things like Oh, I feellike I'm saving you. You know,
since he essentially made itclear that he felt that like if
I stayed in Chile, it wasessentially a death sentence for
me and my daughter. And youknow, the exact day I left my
home and was due to fly out ofSantiago, which is to lace

(02:14:42):
capital in about nine hoursnorth by car from where I had
been living. That's wheneverything started to change.
And of course it's right when Ibasically given up a lot of my
independence in my life. Youknow for him and you know that
night we were staying in anairport hotel, and I had said
something, I can't reallyremember exactly the words, but

(02:15:05):
I know, I was basically anglingfor some sort of show of
emotional support from him.Because I was I was feeling, you
know, jittery and insecure abouthaving left everything behind
for, you know, an indefiniteperiod to go somewhere new, you
know, with my kid until and, youknow, it was just, you know, was
I basically just wanted a hug,you know, and whatever I said,

(02:15:29):
you know, elicited the completeopposite type of response I had
been hoping for, and instead, Igot just this explosion of
aggression, verbal abuse, justtelling me what a garbage person
I was, and just telling me, youknow, since it was all directed
at me about how I'm awful, youknow, and I tried to de escalate

(02:15:50):
it, I was really taken abackthat what I had said, had, you
know, provoked this response,and there was just no way to
convince him to stop. You know,I was like, trying to do
anything to get, you know,saying, like, Let's calm down,
you can, we can talk aboutwhat's upset you when we're both

(02:16:11):
more calm, and like, let's notdo it this way. We're traveling
and all this stuff, and none ofit worked. And you know, it, you
know, I got really upset,obviously, because it went on
for like, a really long time.And it was at a time where I
felt really vulnerable to and,you know, I couldn't, we
couldn't even talk afterwards, Iwas, I was so upset. And then

(02:16:34):
afterwards, you know, he gave meyou know, a hug, but he did
apologize, and then startedblaming my stress for his
outburst. And, you know, I triedto rationally this, rationalize
this and some similar outbursts,and, you know, weird behavior
that happened during the rest ofthe trip to the UK, as him just
being stressed by traveling, ormaybe he felt a lot of pressure

(02:16:56):
about being responsible for, youknow, us now, because he'd been
a bachelor for so long orsomething, you know, but, you
know, over time, it becamepretty clear that that wasn't
the case. So, you know, once wegot in the UK, you know, it was
true that I could take mydaughter to a daycare, but
pretty much everything else wasclosed, and where he was living

(02:17:19):
was not as accommodating for us,as he had described. And it was
also, you know, pretty muchimpossible to rent anything else
anywhere, because he didn'treally have an income or like
papers to show to justifyrenting. And I'm been living in
Chile for a long time. So Idon't have that either. And, you
know, like, even though thelockdowns in the UK, I don't,

(02:17:41):
you know, they weren't as bad asChile is the situation there was
still really unpleasant, and Iwasn't really sure I wanted to
stay long term. And, you know,which is what he had hoped for.
And it was pretty clear that hewas really bothered and stressed
by the fact that I, I didn'treally seem to like it in the UK
more. And, you know, duringthis, this time, when we first

(02:18:03):
got there, I also learned thatmy Chilean bank accounts didn't
work in the UK. So I startedhaving to send my money to his
bank account, which he wouldthen use to pay for things over
there. And that was the start ofa very unfortunate, slippery
slope that eventually led me tonot having control over my
money. You know, what it wasspin on. It was time, you know,

(02:18:25):
I couldn't buy anything withouthim knowing about it. And a
couple of weeks after wearrived, I got pregnant. And
from that point on, thingsstarted to go dramatically
downhill. And some months later,you know, he said something
about if I hadn't gottenpregnant with my son, he was

(02:18:46):
afraid that I would have justgone back to Chile. And so, you
know, there's a part of me thatthinks maybe he wanted me to
have a baby to keep me in theUK, because, I mean, he knew in
detail how hard it had been, forme, you know, back in Chile, to
to juggle one kid on my own as asingle mom. And, you know, I

(02:19:08):
guess he might have known, Iwould have been much less likely
to leave if I meant having to,but you know, I don't really
know for sure, but, you know,definitely something I've
thought about. So my, my secondpregnancy was really, really
difficult compared to my firstespecially for the first couple

(02:19:30):
of months, it was a lot ofpuking. I felt sick all the
time. I had really low energyand brain fog, but I had to try
and keep working. And a big partof that was because the UK is
just so much more expensive thanChile, that I really couldn't
afford not to work and, youknow, he had no income he was
contributed, contributing veryoccasionally to my site. And so,

(02:19:54):
you know, it's my income anyway.So, you know, I was paying for
all of our shared expenses andHonestly, who knows what else
because I didn't have access tohis bank statements. And you
know, he treated any attempt onmy part to look at those
statements is me not trustingHim enough and became a big
argument that, you know, beingsuper sick and from pregnancy

(02:20:17):
and all that I didn't reallywant to want to have. And, you
know, it was during this timethat this, there was a pattern
of abuse that started to emerge,he would say that I was
emotionally disconnected fromhim. And he would get really
angry and be really aggressiveand nasty. And he went on, let
me deescalate the situation orlet me have any boundaries. And

(02:20:42):
he would keep going and pushingand pushing and pushing, until I
would break down, at whichpoint, he gives me a hug, act
like he was empathetic again,and then tell me that, oh, how
good it was that I was nowshowing an emotional response
and that I was connecting again.And so you know, in reality, I
wasn't disconnected, I was justfeeling really ill from

(02:21:05):
pregnancy, a poorly supported bymy partner, because I was also
doing all the domestic stuffstill, like cleaning and laundry
and all that stuff, you know,doing that solo, and I was also
without a support networkoutside of him, because I had,
you know, just arrived to aforeign country where he was the
only person I knew. So you know,but what he was doing here was

(02:21:27):
trying to push me to react sothat when I'd cry and break
down, he'd not only reward mewith the affection I wanted, and
which he would normallywithhold. But he would also tell
me that, you know, me crying,after he would explode like this
was a sign that I had severedepression, and that I was

(02:21:48):
mentally ill. And I needed tolean more on him and listen to
him more, and do things the wayhe wanted. And, you know, he
tried to give me the impressionthat only he knew how to help
me. And, you know, I was alreadytotally isolated by being over
there. So, you know, I didn'treally have anyone else to help

(02:22:10):
me anyway. And it was clear tome pretty quickly that the
things that would set him off oranger him just made no sense
most of the time, and it left mewalking on eggshells really
quickly. So one of the biggestearly explosions came after a
night where I had tried to turnon white noise to block out his

(02:22:33):
really loud snoring, he had acold at the time. And, you know,
I'd known people in college andyou know, in high school, even
that it used like white noisemachines to sleep better or
block out noise like in theirhouses or in, in dorms. And I
thought it was like a normalthing. But after like two
minutes, he woke up, he wasreally angry and started
accusing me of trying to hurthim, and trying to torture him.

(02:22:56):
And he went on like this, notjust that night, but like for
for several days. And he evenwent so far as to accuse me of
trying to use CIA MK Ultratorture tactics and denied
the fact that I could have notknown how much this would upset
him and how awful it was to turnwhite noise on to block out his

(02:23:20):
snoring. And I, you know, Idon't know a lot of these freak
outs, you know, they happened infront of my, in front of my
three year old daughter,including one time he over this
white noise thing, he threatenedto kill himself, he said I was
trying to kill him. And like allthese horrible nasty things you
would never say in front of achild, especially one that

(02:23:40):
young, and, you know, afterthis, there would be you know,
there would be these explosionslike that, and then there'd be
lols, you know, but the wholeexperience on top of being ill
pregnant and no longer incontrol of my own finances, left
me feeling trapped. And, youknow, I felt that way pretty

(02:24:00):
quickly. And that was reallyhard because I'd had that same
sensation living at my parentshouse as a as a teen with my
mom, except that this time, mydaughter was trapped with me
too. And, you know, by thispoint, pretty much all the
positive aspects of therelationship that had been there
at the beginning, had haddisappeared and, you know, even

(02:24:23):
in conversations inconversations, he would
constantly just talk abouthimself what he was researching
what he wanted to do what heneeded. And, you know, anytime I
tried to contribute to theconversation, he just looked at
me like with disdain, like I wasirritating like I was meddling
in his conversation or I wassaying something stupid. Unless

(02:24:46):
you know, I was telling him thathe'd done something well or you
know, was stroking his ego so itjust left me feeling really, you
know, belittle like, likenothing. And you know, it was
also during this time I foundout that um, And what he had
said about the ease of gettingresidency in the UK was also
false. And so of course, Ineeded residency to get a bank

(02:25:09):
account and regain myindependence over my finances.
And because he had not told mesome things I needed to know,
when I came into the country bythis point, I realized when I
went to look into it myself thatthe only way I was going to be
able to get residency was if Imarried him and pursued a
spousal visa. And he had, ofcourse, been pushing for that as

(02:25:29):
well. But given how things hadbeen playing out, I like really
did not want that. So about amonth and a half, before I ended
up leaving the UK, and I wasthere, probably about six months
in total, we were traveling toLondon, and he got really
stressed during the trip and hadthis, you know, same type of

(02:25:50):
huge explosion in our hotel roomagain in front of my daughter.
And it was just awful. I mean,it was like two to three full
hours, if not more beingscreamed at. And, you know, I
took my daughter and went downto reception after a while while
I think he stormed out of theroom, and then I didn't want to

(02:26:10):
stay there for him to come back.And so I bought a separate hotel
room for me and my daughter. Soshe could at least sleep because
I didn't know how he'd be if hecame back. And was just really,
you know, unsettled, obviously.And, you know, I told him, We
were staying in a separate room,and he texted me and he said he

(02:26:32):
was leaving, he was going to goback to Cardiff, just hours from
London where we were living. Andso that means he left me and my
daughter all alone in Londonwith no money, I'd spent my cash
on a hotel room trying to getspace somehow to try and
deescalate stuff. And, you know,I contacted, I didn't know

(02:26:53):
anyone in London or the UK. Imean, I tried to contact people
through work, desperately tryingto find a way to sort of fix
this really messed up situation.But you know, around five or
six, and he texted me saying hewas back to let them know what
room we were in. And now than wehired him a car to drive us back

(02:27:15):
to Cardiff and canceled all thethe plans that led us to go to
London in the first place. Andyou know, after this explosion,
he was able to recognize he hadbeen wrong when he promised to
go to therapy. But then whenpush came to shove, he didn't
want to find a therapist. It'skind of dragging his feet. So I
tried to set him up with onethat a friend had recommended.

(02:27:35):
And he said the first sessionwent really well and did really
great. And then after that, youknow, she he said she turned out
to be crazy and was doing allthis weird stuff and didn't want
to go back. And you know, it wasall my fault that it had gotten
weird, but I've never workedwith the lady. I was just, you
know, trying to find somebody tohelp them since he wasn't going
to do it himself, I guess. And,you know, I also later reached

(02:27:58):
out to her and asked if she haddone what he had accused her of.
And she said she hadn't. But youknow, I don't really know. I
just know that he decided I hadbeen so wrong and awful to have
recommended her. And every timeI mentioned after that, that he
should consider therapy again,he would angrily bring this lady
up as a way to shut down theconversation. So after this

(02:28:23):
event and a few other blow upsthat were slightly minor than
that one, I started havingconcerns about my daughter's
peer group at her daycare. Shewas with, you know, other kids
her age. So other three to fouryear olds, and one of the girls
her age and this girl's brother,were apparently pulling on the
pants of other kids and liketouching their underwear,

(02:28:44):
underwear and they called it thenappy or diaper game. And I
didn't really like that mydaughter had tried to play this
game at home with me. And therewere some other things going on.
That I had noticed, you know, mydaughter's behavior reflecting,
you know, from the school and Iwas like, You know what, I think
I'm gonna try and put hersomewhere else. And there was

(02:29:06):
this other school closer towhere we lived. And there were
some neighbors who had theirkids there instead, it was
really good. So it's just kindof seemed logical, you know? So
he said he would do that for me,because I had a lot going on,
and he would enroll her there.And, you know, after a few days,
he said, I asked, you know, sois she going to go? Have you

(02:29:26):
heard from them. And he said hehadn't gotten a response to the
first email he'd sent. So Iasked if, you know if he was
going to do it, if he could justwalk down to the school, it was
like less than five blocks awayand talk to somebody in person
so I could get my daughter backin childcare, you know, sort of
paying for sitters hourly, it'slike a big cost difference, you

(02:29:46):
know. So anyway, his response tothat was that he would send them
an email that they wouldn'tignore. And so it turned out
that that email he had sent saidthat we needed immediate Child
Care because my daughter had hadto leave her other daycare due
to a, quote, sexual situation.And the new daycare did respond

(02:30:09):
immediately to that. But theyasked for more details. And he
essentially told them that theprevious daycare had not just
allowed but had instigated andpromote that the children their
touch each other's privateparts, and that this was the
nappy game. And so the newdaycare quickly involved, the
police and social services and acomplaint in investment was

(02:30:33):
filed and investigation wasopened against the old daycare
based on a warps narrative thatdid not fit at all what had
originally prompted me to takemy daughter out of school,
because as far as what mydaughter had told me, and what I
had observed, this was two kidsat the peer group doing this
without any sort of sanctioningfrom the daycare itself. So

(02:30:56):
instead of owning up to the factthat he had kids that
exaggerated the situation, hedoubled down and basically
decided to accuse my daughter'sold daycare of being a pedophile
and grooming enablers withoutevidence for it, and just
totally lost it when I didn'twant to lawyer up and go nuclear
when we didn't have evidence forallegations he had made via

(02:31:18):
email. Because, you know, courtsa little different than just
blogging or publishing stuffonline. So or on Twitter, you
know, so to make what he felt hecould use as an evidence, he got
my daughter after severalcoached attempts to say on
camera, a version of events thatmore closely supported his

(02:31:39):
narrative. And he said that Ihad to support this, or I too,
you know, was a pedo enabler,and I wasn't protecting my own
daughter from paedos. And, youknow, all of this stuff, and I
was already pretty worn down bythat time anyway. So um, so
Social Services launched aninvestigation into my daughter's
previous daycare, and they cameup with nothing. So they dropped

(02:32:01):
by our house unexpectedly oneday and spoke to him one on one,
and then to my daughter, one onone, and then they interviewed
me with my daughter. And when Ihadn't said to them what he had
wanted me to say to them,because he was apparently
listening outside the room, wewere in a he just completely
exploded at them and me, and heyelled, and yelled, and kicked

(02:32:24):
them out of the house. And a daylater, one of the social
services people who had beenthere contacted me by phone,
because she asked for it whenshe had interviewed me at the
house. And she asked to speak tome because she and the other
girl had noticed that my threeyear old didn't react at all,
and he had his meltdown leadingthem rightfully, to believe that

(02:32:46):
this happened regularly in frontof her. And I did speak to this
lady afterwards, because, youknow, by this point, I felt not
just completely trapped. But Ifelt like this situation that
had been created over mydaughter's, you know, daycare,
was just spiraling out ofcontrol and could potentially

(02:33:06):
turn into major legal troubleand just was getting worse and
worse, and all the completerefusal on his part to take any
accountability, or have like,just no ability to de escalate
at all, which he you know, shownnumerous times before this, it
just made it clear that this wasnot a sustainable situation.
And, you know, I had to get outof it. And, you know, not to

(02:33:30):
mention the fact that I was justcompletely miserable, and had
really started to become scaredof him when he was angry,
because it's not like it got anybetter, you know, it just got
worse and more aggressive andconstant, you know, over time.
And it was just, I'd never beenscared like that and it
relationship before. And so tomake a long story, short social

(02:33:53):
services, ended up coming by afew times, and I don't tend to
our relationship more and reachthe conclusion that if I didn't
leave him in the UK, byextension, because to stay
there, I'd have to marry him.They would plan to take my
daughter and my son once he wasborn into protective protective
custody because of my ex'sbehavior, and it's obviously an

(02:34:15):
unacceptable outcome. So Iobviously had to go. And the
problem was that I didn't havemoney to buy a plane ticket,
because I would have to gothrough him to access my money.
And then he would know I wasleaving. And I was scared to
tell him I was going to leavebecause of everything that he
had done to try and keep methere. And thankfully, you know,
a couple of friends intervene. Ibought my plane ticket. And I

(02:34:37):
told my ex I had to go back toChile because I was worried
about the social services stuff,and I didn't have any other
options. And he said he wasplanning to sue social services
and that I could come back whenhe won. And I told him I would
so he acquiesced and I was just,I was just terrified of a
confrontation of him and mealone in the house about me

(02:34:57):
leaving because I wanted To himdidn't want to be with him
anymore. I just felt like I wastoo scared to do that, at the
time. So in in late August of2021, I got, I got back to Chile
after all of this, and my sonwas born about four months later
at the end of December. And inthat time, you know, I did tell
my ex from a safe distance thatI have left to get away from

(02:35:20):
him, and I, you know, how Ireally felt about my experience
over there. But shortly beforemy my son was born, he claimed
that he knew that he had beenwrong, that it had been his
anxiety, that his decade longuse of Prozac and some dosing
problem with another medicationhe took daily, were to blame.

(02:35:42):
And that if he sorted it out,those things out, you know,
everything would be the way itwas meant to be. It wasn't him,
it was the meds, right. Andafter a few months of grappling
with a newborn baby into fouryear old while also trying to
rebuild my life and Chile andhaving a book deadline for you
know, my book that came out lastyear, I gave him another chance

(02:36:04):
and received him here again, andin Chile, because I wasn't going
to leave here, you know, Ididn't want to lose my financial
independence again, on and, youknow, not unlike the time we had
spent in the UK, it was just adisaster, and more of the same.
He was constantly trying tobully me into leave into leaving

(02:36:25):
Chile again. And all I wassaying is that I can't commit to
a move right now, because I justhad a baby, I have this book
deadline, you know, wait tillthe end of the year. And, you
know, that wasn't even enough.So I sent him home like less
than three months later. Butagain, I got, you know, it was
winter. And it was I got boggeddown and overwhelmed by trying

(02:36:48):
to juggle the kids, my loomingbook deadline on top of regular
work maintaining a household bymyself. And, you know, also
after years of being told thatabsolutely everything and the
relationship that had everhappened was my fault. I thought
if I could just try my absolutehardest in the relationship than
it could work. And I think a lotof my reasoning here was

(02:37:10):
partially relate related tostress. And partially related to
this strategy that's detailedearlier in this podcast, bread
crumbing, where a narcissist canhave fleeting moments where it
seems like they're rational orwilling to take accountability
for something, which makes youthink they can be reasoned with,
in that you just had to doeverything they asked you. And

(02:37:33):
then things can work out, youknow, and I think a lot of it
too, was just the emotional painof not wanting to be a single
mother forever and wanting myson to have a father, you know,
like, I felt like I had to givehim as big a chance as I could
for things to work out. Because,you know, once, once you're a

(02:37:54):
single mom with two kids, it'snot like, you know, two kids
with two different dads, it'snot like you can ever expect to
date again. So, you know, I feltlike I had to be completely sure
about him. And, you know, sincenarcissists are so good at
sowing doubt, playing on yourempathy and emotions, you know,

(02:38:14):
I felt like I could, you know,maybe it was, I could do things
that would make it better. Andit would turn out different this
time, you know, and, I mean, Ireally should have known for my
experiences at this point thatthat's not how it was. But
anyway, he came back lastSeptember, about a year ago. And
things were mostly, you know,they were better than they'd

(02:38:37):
been before, at least, you know,and they were manageable until,
I guess, early January. And inearly January, my daughter had
gone to her father's house, andtold him that my ex had been
hitting her when I wasn'taround, and her dad had told me
about it by phone, and I told myex about it. And all three of us
felt that she had probably setit for attention because she

(02:38:59):
hadn't seen her dad in a while,because he'd been kind of
unavailable. So my daughter didget in trouble for not telling
the truth. And you know, youknow, also for telling a lie
that could have seriousrepercussions. But honestly, my
ex just went so far beyond andpunishing her to the point that
he became like obsessed withpunishing her, and was doing

(02:39:21):
things like isolating her andnot letting her play or interact
with her brother not letting hertalk to me about what she was
coloring or doing or thinkingare just normal things having
panic attacks and anxietyattacks because she might be
naughty during the weekend andall of this extreme stuff. From
the time my daughter said thisto her dad, which was early

(02:39:43):
January. It went on until theend of March when I kicked out
my ex for the last time sothat's almost three months of
this going on every day at home.I had a sitter quit over it
because it was just so extremeand during that time, I want to
he wouldn't let me have a sayingand how He treated her, I
couldn't say anything about itat all without risking a giant

(02:40:04):
explosive fight. And in public,I mean, it was obviously a
different story, because heportrayed himself as super
stepdad. And, you know, but evenpeople I know really well, here
that knew him too, they can tellthat something weird was going
on between him and my daughter.And, you know, when I did break
up, did break up with him. And,you know, it was about my

(02:40:28):
daughter, it was about how hewas treating me. He was the
reason he gave us to why Ishouldn't break up with him
didn't have anything to do withwanting to be in a relationship
with me, or caring about me orcaring about his son, it was
about how my relationship washis, quote, chance to make it an
independent media. So heessentially admitted that he'd

(02:40:51):
been using me, you know,honestly, probably had been from
the beginning. And, you know,given what I experienced with my
mom after my uncle's death, andhow the, the abuse with her
escalated, when she was afraidthat I was going to out her for
what she had done. To my uncle,you know, part of me worries

(02:41:13):
that maybe that's what my ex hadbeen doing with my daughter, and
maybe she hadn't been lying toher dad, but I'll honestly, you
know, that's something I'll,I'll never know, because I'm not
going to ask bring it up to heragain, you know, like this whole
to be behind us. But you know,as far as you know, relates to
my accent, you know, I dideventually put my foot down, and

(02:41:35):
I sent him away, because I couldsee history repeating itself, I
felt like my daughter wasstarting to relive, you know, my
childhood, I could see, youknow, what she was experiencing,
it was just like watching fouryear old five year old me, you
know, and I just did not wantthat for her at all. Because I

(02:41:55):
just know how, how painful itis. And I feel like my most
important job as a parent is tostop that, that cycle of abuse
from continuing, and I amhonestly embarrassed and ashamed
to talk about it, because Ican't, you know, it's
embarrassing and awful, that ittook me three months to do

(02:42:17):
something about it, I shouldhave done something way sooner.
But you know, you know, youhaven't been in a relationship
with a narcissist, and maybe youdon't, but relationships like
that are really hard to breakaway from, they reduce you down
to almost nothing. They fill youwith self doubt, it leaves you
weak, you know, like paralyzedin a sense. And I guess if I can

(02:42:43):
think of one positive thing fromhaving to live that experience,
it's that I understand my, mydad a lot better. Because, you
know, for a long time, I neverunderstood why he didn't leave a
relationship where someonetreated him poorly, and where he
was miserable, and his kids weremiserable. But you know,
I was him in my lastrelationship, especially those

(02:43:03):
last three months. So you know,at least least I understand him
a little more. So I'm so hereI've tried to give, you know, as
succinct summary as I can reallyabout my experiences with
narcissists, how it's affectedme and my family in the long
struggle that I've had as aresult with self esteem, with

(02:43:27):
boundaries to stick up formyself, and how important the
truth is, because, you know,like I said earlier, you know, I
got, I basically had my momlaunched a giant smear campaign
against me when I was a teen.And that sort of repeat has
repeated itself while my son hasbeen in the hospital with my x

(02:43:50):
and my my son's father, whocouldn't even be bothered to ask
how he could help or support hisextremely sick child, and who
fundraised off of my son'scondition acting like he was
involved with us when he wasn't,and I had no intention to send
any of that money here, spenthis time privately smearing me

(02:44:13):
behind my back to workcolleagues, people I've worked
closely with contributors to mysite, people I've co written
articles with, and people heknew were supporting my site,
via my website and so on, whilepublicly taking credit for work
he didn't actually do on my bookand using it to promote his new
website, and then also trying tocreate the public impression

(02:44:35):
that we were still together,because it benefited him. And
because he knows I don't likedrama, and I don't like
conflict, and that I wasunlikely to say anything about
it. But I did say somethingabout it on Twitter, eventually
to set things straight that hewasn't involved. And since then,

(02:44:56):
he's made it very clear that heplans to put out some sort have
crazy hit piece on me orwhatever. And I honestly don't
want to live with fear or worryabout what the what this guy
what his narrative is about menow or what he has to say about
me, I just want to move on andspend time healing with my kids

(02:45:18):
and not giving him any thought.So, you know, if you happen to
care, I've left supportingevidence for what I've said
about this in the show notes.But this is the first and only
time I plan on speaking aboutyou really any of this stuff
because as I said before, I'mtalking about this now to heal.

(02:45:39):
I'm not planning on talkingabout it again. And in the
event. You know, that me havingtold my story helps someone
realize that they're in abusiverelationship or had, you know,
an experience similar to mine,you know, if it helps them then
it's worth it to so. You know,thanks for taking the time to
listen to me and my story.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The False Self with Ryan Cristian

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

24/7 News: The Latest

Crime Junkie

All Episodes

The False Self with Ryan Cristian

On Purpose with Jay Shetty