WWE RAW POST-SHOW (9/1): Keller & Fann discuss Paris crowd, Breakker & Reed without Heyman, Becky confronts Punk, Dom-Styles

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Now PW Torch brings you the Wade Keller Pro Wrestling

(01:07):
Post Show.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
It's time to talk this week's WWE Monday Night.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Raw All Right. On Labor Day, WWE put in three
hours of labor almost not quite forty five minutes of
Raw in Paris with rambunctious, satisfied, enthusiastic crowd. I have
mixed feelings on the crowd, but that would be kind
of turned it into one of the stories of the

(01:34):
last couple of nights, and I want to start with
that because I don't want to be the curmudgeon who's like, hey,
people are having a great time and it's great enthusiasm
for the brand and the wrestler, So it's on for
whatever I'm about to say. All in all, this is good.
My question is is it something they should be celebrating
as much as they are, because they're not in every instance,

(01:57):
but it's coming across the sort of like we're just
here to make ourselves part of the show. And this
has been a discussion point for a while on these
overseas shows, Richard, which where are you? Where are you
on that? I mean, I like it now and then
no question about it. But I just want to before
I throw to you to say this, I don't want
every crowd every week in the United States to be
like this either. I want people. I want crowds to

(02:19):
just sort of be okay with observing the show. And
reacting to the story being told as opposed to seeing
how much attention they can get from wrestlers. And by
the way, one more parenthetical and then I really will
three to you. I thought it was really sweet what
they did for aj Styles, and I want to exclude
that because that I thought was really cool.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Go ahead, Okay, So the only thing we talked about
this a little bit during the roundtable for the plee.
The only thing I will appreciate is the fact that
they mentioned that they sold out and sold more than
Taylor Swift's concert.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And it's not for the reason that you think.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
For one thing, for those of you who don't know,
in Europe, there is there are laws in countries against
what we call ticket touting, and there are laws against
what you can say is basically price gouging by Ticketmaster
and other outlets to force prices to be the inflated
numbers they are. In fact, I put up an article
on Sunday that reflected folks had an easier time to

(03:11):
fly to Paris to see Taylor Swift during her concert
because it was cheaper to fly to Paris, stay in
a hotel for three days, and get third level seats
than it was for them to get tickets in Kansas City, Missouri,
and so that shows how big Ticketmaster has had in
stranglehold on US concerts. I remember you and Jason talking
about the last few concerts he's gone to in the

(03:32):
past few months or even the last year.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Same thing here.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Wwe has a group that's paying really good prices for
the right to be there, and I think they've earned
with their tickets and with their voice the credit they got.
But I think there were times where they overstepped and
they kind of went a little too far into the
we're going to pretend to be the best version of
crowd X that we could be with the exception, notably

(03:56):
like you said of AJ styles. And I also think
the energy they showed CM Punk during that Becky Lynch
promo and recalibrating Becky Lynch as a heel instead of
just saying Yay, you're awesome.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, and like I said, I'm now and then it's good.
It's it's kind of Wade Barrett celebrating oh, best crowd ever.
And I would rather have the most enthusiastic crowd ever
be more descriptive, the crowd that's most excited and engaged
in in our tremendous entrances and they like elaborate more
because to me, I'm just. I enjoy a wrestling product

(04:29):
more when the crowd is not just, and I want
to find the right wording posk because I don't want
to be mistis worshipping the personalities instead of being invested
in the stories that are being told. That's the only
that's the only differentiation that that that that tonight was
an issue because they didn't hijack the show. And I'll
throw up a comment from Saltha vigeon three. He goes,
how was the crowd bad? I didn't say they were bad.
They didn't do pointless chance to hijack the show, and

(04:51):
they didn't constantly in our promos a chance like the
the UK crowds did last week. The crowd was great.
In my opinion. There's there weren't. There aren't explicit negatives.
There are just an abundance of something that I think
led to a longer show. And it kind of gets
to the criticism of the Jayuso ring entrance, which is

(05:12):
it's great to be there for it, but when you
see it every week on TV, you start thinking maybe
I'm gonna start watching Raw ten minutes later so I
can jump past this because and not everybody feels his way,
but I think that would be needs to cater to
the majority, and I don't know that the majority want
are going to get the same thing out of a
long Jayuso entrance going through the song twice that people

(05:34):
in the building are super excited to experience, and so
a window into the B fan experience is great now
and then, but if it's every week and they're kind
of celebrating this, they might end up regretting if the
United States audiences emulate this even more how much the
crowd thinks, well, to please the WWE, we need to

(05:54):
try to outdo Europe, and then what you end up
doing is having your filming and experience the fans are
having instead of producing a TV show for the TV audience.
It's just again, this isn't a heavy handed like, oh,
I'm super upset about it, but because of B's touting
of it, I just I'm a little worried they're creating
a monster. But I'll probably won't think about it next
week because things we'll just be back to normal or
Friday on Chicago.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, looking at the two.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
I also see it as when they have these events,
it's better to do what they did with the aj styles.
As I was talking to Sean radickin about it, the
chance continued through the commercial break, you're going to do
the j uso entrance three to five times. Have some
of those happened during the commercial So that way it's
a lot easier for the folks to kind of at

(06:37):
home process it. It's really it's a balance because before
we crowds were essentially set to be furniture for the
television audience, and now it's swung the other way where
it's so involved and so entertainment for the folks there
to entice you to come, because they want to keep
this streak of x number of places they sell out,

(06:57):
x number of places they're selling gates want that in
addition to the television. Because now they have these deals,
they feel pretty secure. So I think just finding that
balance will go a long way. Because I do think,
like let's say, as he was tonight, Jay Lusso's in
the main event or soho two entrances, if it's him
coming out like he did doubt Diamond Dallas Page, I

(07:18):
like the fact that he was kind of like, I
can't eat.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
I'll let them eat for me. I gotta work on.
I'm a little hurt right now.

Speaker 3 (07:25):
That's fine, but don't have it as a eatof in
the main event when you already sold that your ribs
are jacked up.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Let's throw up a couple more rator comments and then
we'll move on because there's some segments I want to
talk about, a standout match from Dom and aj Becky
and Punk really getting into it. A lot of follow
up from Clash in Paris. But first, Doc Chris Faanner
says in the chat, these crowds are becoming the next
what chant duh, Let's see. Uh there's another one here,

(07:52):
oh Sean Plische, who'll be joining us in a minute.
As a caller said, I thought the crowd is fine,
but it's overkill after a few weeks. Chris Fahn, it's
the chronicity. The main event was borderline hijacked with chance
not entirely relevant to the match. Durrell says, these crowds
are good for a little while, but I'm also happy
once they come back Derek Mitchell, So I'm not going

(08:13):
to be grudge the crowd signing all the time. There
are other elements of that annoy me more than crowd noise. Yes, well,
don't hold us to standard that anything we bring up
is that it has to be the worst thing for
it to be. We're talking about this certainly isn't the
worst thing, but it doesn't mean it's not something you
can still voice your you know, and I know you're
not saying that, Derek, but sometimes people apologize for having
an opinion because it's not the top five thing that's
worse than WWE. And it's like a little stuff adds

(08:35):
up too.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
And I wouldn't mind, Derek if you threw out your
top five because I'm now very intreat by what's kind
of like grinding your gears with ww at present.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yes, yeah, b Jeff says Savar. I'm with you. I
love these international crowds. They only go international a few
times a year, so it's great to have the crowd
and cultural diversity. And that's one of the points I'm
making is it's more the frame a de wit be
like how wframes It is more my issue than the crowd,
especially this tonight. I mean, I don't have specific emplaints

(09:06):
about the crowd. It's more WWE almost wishing for more
of this by saying, because this is the greatest crowd
we ever had, and Barrett said it last night at
the start of the clash, You're you might be inviting
fans to think this is how we're supposed to act
and we need to live up to this, and then
you do end up with bloated shows that feel like
it's more fans sort of self indulgently trying to please
the cult of WWE management and there and they want

(09:29):
to be praised rather than just enjoying the show for
what it is. And so again I just there's you
can end up going down a road where the fans
think that's right, it's about us and and I and
I think there's more value in the crowd thinking that
the stars are in the ring, not in the seats,
in the crowd, and we react organically to it, but
we don't plan to not hijack but just try to

(09:52):
outdo each other constantly, like this isn't soccer. Like it's
one segment after another. They're fighting, they're yelling. It's not
like a you know, being kicked up up up one
hundred yard field and the crowd sort of singing a
song while there's a side out, you know what I mean.
So it's just I think Prossing at its best has
a different type of crowd than this. But if it
goes away, that's fine. It's me sort of waving a

(10:14):
yellow flag at WWE to just maybe pull back a
little on making this the standard by which all crowds
are judged.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yeah, I think that's the cool.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
All right, let's posse introduce ourselves and get to the
actual content of the show. I don't want to be
a hypocrite here and talk about the crowd for being
obsessed with themselves and ww be being obsessed with them
You can support us on Patreon and get these shows
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Weight Keller Prossing post shows and the PW Torch daily
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(10:43):
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upgrade to other tiers and receive even more benefits through Patreon.
This is the Weaight Keller Pro Wrestling Post Show for Monday,

(11:05):
September first, twenty twenty five. I'm weyd Keller, host of
the show, the editor, publisher and founder of the long
running Pro Wrestling tourch weekly newsletter that predates websites, predates podcasts,
predates Ted Turner buying WCW all kinds of things, and
pre dates Undertaker's career, by the way, predates the Alps.

(11:27):
That's rich. So we're here talking Raw in the afternoon.
I think we can cult this the afternoon.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
Rich, Right, See, this is where that time travels messing
us up because I'm at five pm, so I'm right
at the crux of evening.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
All right, all right, well it is definitely afternoon here
here in Minnesota, but nevertheless afternoon evening. We are here
talking about tonight's episode of Raw. They were in Paris
and it was a it's kind of fun to see
these shows live instead of on delay in the evening.
I mean, I like the mixing it up with Netflix.
You know, Netflix doesn't care when you watch, and they

(12:01):
have a very flexible schedule. They don't have a linear schedule,
so unlike USA Network and Fox, if they go overseas,
they could just air it live. And so I think
it's a fun change up, and it feels always feels
different watching Ron this atmosphere. Do you like it, Richard?
Does it feel like No, it's getting the way my
afternoon stuff, and then I won't know what to do
with myself in the evening.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
I think in this particular day, it being Labor day
here in the States, it was perfect because I was
off from work. I could watch it, do some house
keeping around the house and enjoy it without the stress
of how am I gonna have notes for Wade if
I have to do like day job stuff.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
So I thought it was a perfect fit.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah. Well, the voice you hear is rich Man. He's
a progressing TORS columnist and VIP analyst. He is part
of the VP exclusive show Everything with rich and Wade
that drops usually on Tuesday nights, but he joins me
on camera and on the post show here talking tonight's
or excuse me, I just did it. This afternoon's episode
of Monday e Bro was tonight in Paris, So we're
talking about an evening show still, So we invite you

(13:01):
if you're watching us live on the peak w Torch
YouTube channel to join in the chat and we'll put
comments up on the screen and read them for our
podcast listeners as as we go.

Speaker 4 (13:11):
Here.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
You can also email us at Wade Keller Podcast at
gmail dot com, and that of course applies to not
just watching us live, but if you can't listen to
us or watch us live, if you listen to the
podcast later on delay, which is most of you, you
can still be part of the show using that email
wad Keller Podcast at gmail dot com. Send your questions
and comments. We'll get to them later in the show.
You can also be a live caller. The link to

(13:33):
that is in the pw Torch raw report that I write,
and also on our Patreon page. Although I think I
forgot to put on the Patreon page, so maybe or
did I now, I don't know. I'm all mixed.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
It looks like Seawan's in there, so you must have
put it on Patreon or somewhere.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Ye, well, I put it somewhere. I just don't know.
I don't know Sean's on Patreon or the VP site.
Sean will tell us, but I'm got whatever. I'll try
to do it during the show Fight Day. But yeah,
those are the ways to join us. But we appreciate
every buddy who is also listening. So let's get to it.
Let's get back to analyzing tonight's show. See Them Punk

(14:09):
Help was standing in the parking garage waiting for Seth rawlins.
He said there's only one entrance, and then eventually Adam
Pierce told them no. So somehow says in the building already.
I don't know how it got in. So Punk went
to the ring and said, come on out here. I'm
going to hijack the show if you don't come out,
and then Sessa music started right away, and Becky Lynch
came out and they had an exchange, and Becky said
she's still bitter from eight nine, ten years ago when

(14:30):
fans were chanting sea I'm Punk during her matches and
not respecting the work that she was doing. Punk gave
her a hard time for that. She talked up her
husband and Punk said, you have bad taste in men.
As I went back and forth, they got it got
personal and intense. She ended up Seth ended up coming out,
but then walking away before there's a confrontation, and then
Becky slapped him around a bit those are kind of

(14:52):
the high points of it. What do you think of
the segment what did Because one of the top things
I was curious about coming out of Clash in Paris,
which was was Becky Lynch helping Seth not a one
off but like something that she'd do but go back
to her world or is this the sign of an
ongoing alliance. I still don't have that answer until she
is officially added to the vision and walks out with
Hayman Breaker and read two three weeks in a row.

(15:14):
But she definitely wasn't just a one off in the
sense that she was there to follow up on what
she did last night. So what did you think of
what she said and how it was presented today as
a follow up to yesterday.

Speaker 3 (15:23):
I like the fact that she was the voice as
the man of WWEE to say I didn't appreciate my
matches being hijacked by seam punk chance, I didn't appreciate
all the like all these things where you could have
a kernel of truth, but she expanded it so wide
that you're kind of like, all right, this is a
little too far, particularly where I saw someone post this

(15:44):
on Blue Sky Punk. As much as he's an iconoclast
and does things his own way, isn't Randy Orton because
Randy would have pumped her and would have had no
remorse about it, whereas Punk had that line. And so
even as she's pie facing, and then they make the
announcement later that next week it's going to be in Chicago.

(16:05):
The more they keep saying than the signals whenever, if,
and whenever aj Lee shows up to even the odds,
that's going to be a very exciting time because now
he'll be able to let her kind of hopefully she's
ready to kind of go promo for promo with Becky
because it's been ten plus years. But I thought he
did a really good job of explaining how he got screwed.

(16:26):
Becky did a great job from her perspective as Sess's wife,
to say, my super hot husband, who's better looking than
all of you in the crowd, deserve to be champion,
and I just enforced that, what's the big deal? I
liked it. I thought that Becky being disliked and again
to the crowd in the common section, I thought the

(16:47):
crowd did a great job of exacerbating how much of
a heal Becky was and instead of doing the gay
Becky saying mean things to us, they just booed the
crap out of her and I liked it.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
So do you think if they go aj Lee punk
thing spoiler what everybody wasn't following that on social media?
Do you think that ends up being a feud and
then it's done and Becky goes back to her world
or not?

Speaker 4 (17:10):
No?

Speaker 2 (17:10):
I think she.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
I think regardless of what happens, they've crossed the rubicon
and made Becky. Whatever happens now the cats.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Out of the bag.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
We already knew they were married. But that is a
card he can play at any point. Even if she's
not in the vision, she will be back and she
got her.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
That's actually my I should be more close to my question.
Does she come out with a vision every week or
is it just kind of an ongoing thing. I'm over
here doing my thing, You're over here doing your thing.
But when we need each other, we're there. Yeah, And
I kind of think that's going to be. Do you
are you intrigued with her being in the vision just
coming out every week?

Speaker 3 (17:42):
I thought when they first made the stable, she was
going to be right off the bat, because it made
the most sense to me, but because they didn't do
it that way, I just took it as well. Maybe
they didn't want to kind of muddy the stream, so
to speak, And so for me, I would love if
she's in the group. I think I always love a
good stable. I think Judgments Days best attraction to me
since its founding was that they have both men and

(18:04):
women in the group, and leadership has kind of floated
between who was the most powerful wrestler, not just the
man running things, etc. So I want to see that
dynamic as Hayman starts to craft whatever this vision is,
because if we look at the future of WWE, there
should be a vision as much for the men's division
as there is for the women's.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Let's throw some reader comments up here, or chat comments,
chat or excuse me. Chris Voonner says, not chat Fonner,
He's in the chat. This is the only way Becky
may get actual heat by aligning with the vision. I
still hate that name. Durrell Freeman says, having Becky and
Punk going back and forth with each other with something different,
and I think they need that for the vision. Derek
Mitchell's or excuse me, Derek Hubbard says I enjoyed the

(18:46):
punk Becky segment. It had an uncomfortable tenseness that elicited
an emotional response for me watching on my couch. It
is a great setup for aj Lee. They laid the groundwork.
There's more here. Setle Vision three says Becky was a
great hel here. She was a massive prick and maybe
you want to see her come up and and let's

(19:09):
see if there's another one. No, okay, So those are
the key ones that I highlighted as far as the
response goes. I also like, if we had a better
idea where the Vision was going to kind of land
in terms of chemistry and longevity, I'd have more of
an opinion on Becky being part of it. Like part
of me is like that could be really fun seeing
Becky interacting with Breaker and Reid and Hayman, not just
Seth when it's when it's called for or temporary feud,

(19:33):
you know, with a husband and wife as a husband
and wife. But there's also a part of me that's like,
I don't know, maybe Seth and Becky are better off
picking their spots, keeping it fresh and doing it even
past the Vision being a faction, Because I just I
don't think the vision is going to be around in
two years or three years. I mean, I think this
is a means to an ends to get to somewhere else,
So we'll see. But I agree with the chat that
this was a fun change of pace to see Becky

(19:56):
going at it with Punk. Did Punk handle himself in
a difficult situation, well, you know, I mean like it's
it's awkward getting slapped and then deciding to Like, at
one point he goes, I know where this is going.
I just want to leave, and Becky would lead up
because it was almost like he's like, I'm not going
to sit here and make myself the bad guy by
speaking more truth than maybe is appropriate to the wife

(20:17):
without the man here, although he did call well the man,
I got to be clear the seth without her husband there,
it felt I thought they navigated it well, but I
thought there was a little bit of awareness that this
could go awry too for Punk.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
Yeah, and they wanted to be careful with that. And
I think that's fair because they don't try to dip
too much into the intergender promo's part. And I thought
that this was a nuanced de Drell's point. This wasn't
the typical and that's why you're man, and then something
about genitals or something like that. It was just punk
roasting her being so myopic and saying you have a

(20:52):
great career, get married to Boso. That's my only issue
with you right now. And that to me.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
I like that.

Speaker 3 (20:59):
Instead of him trying to little ror or like back
in the eighties, you would have been like.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Little girl, where are in here with me? All that
stupid crap. I really liked it.

Speaker 5 (21:08):
Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
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Speaker 1 (22:09):
See you in the Paradise. Darrell Freeman says Becky should
be in it, and let's see how things play out,
and then it'll be different from other WWB groups. All right,
let's let's bring our first caller into the show, sew
Sean Flitschtuff from Tennessee, and we'll see what he wants
to talk about about tonight show. Hey Sean, welcome, good

(22:32):
to see you. Happy Liberty, Yeah, happy Liberty.

Speaker 6 (22:34):
Do you guys? It's been a while, Rich. It's always
fun being on with you. Man. I don't get a
chance to talk to you, it feels like ever so
unless I hear your show or hear you on the
you know, the flagship or wherever it is. So it's
good to talk to me. How are you.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
I'm good, I'm good.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
That's the double ed sword of football coaching in the
fall in the US for high school as I have
my North Hills shirt on from practice, and then also
having a son who does ice hockey, so I will
be traveling when I'm not working. I'm traveling the United
States and now Canada in December. I'm great, feeling better.
Achilles is probably at eighty five percent. If I could

(23:06):
use the Randy ratio. I'm now able to do yoga
without falling over, but it's still tough to do basic
Olympic lifts without the balance.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
I'm working on that currently.

Speaker 6 (23:16):
Nice. Ye, it feels like yeah, I was thinking. When
I got on, I was like, man, it's been at
least a couple of weeks. I've been able to talk
to you guys about some of the shows. I've been
able to catch up, you know, even when I was gone.
But I think the show was fun today. I enjoyed it.
It was fun being able to get on there at
one o'clock and be like, oh, I can watch the
show and be done and be done by six seven o'clock.
This is pretty fun.

Speaker 7 (23:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (23:36):
The Becky Punk stuff was good. I definitely want Becky
in division when I saw her yesterday. I was like,
I want to hear her, to be with them all
the time, to see where they go with that, see
the chemistry they all developed with each other.

Speaker 4 (23:47):
I will think.

Speaker 6 (23:50):
I want to talk about first going back to Jay
when he came out at the beginning, which was a
fun visual him coming out, even though I think that's
really all he is kind of right now, I just
don't feel like other than that entrance, there's much to him.
And I didn't like when he talked about you're not
going to mess with my family. But Jay, you waited
a long time, man, You waited till he was about dead,
and then you decided. Well, I just think that makes

(24:11):
them look really weak when they come out and say, well,
you know, the argument is, well, they have a match
coming up, and you understand that, but if.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
You will show me another key point starting to jump in,
but I remember Roman told Jay stay out of my business.
He did and so and Jay addressed that at the beginning,
which I was worried he wouldn't do, and he did.
He said, I I should I have listened to Rome
and my cousin or it was there point where it
crosses a line and I got to stand up for family.
So I think what he did is he addressed the

(24:38):
more of the lemma he was in, which I think
he needed to do. And I actually give him credit
for doing that tonight and not just brushing past it.

Speaker 6 (24:44):
But I do. But the match was over, and like
if it was during the match, yeah, you're not going
to do it because you're you know, he wants to
not interfere in his match. But after he wins and
he's celebrating for a while and then he attacks him afterwards.
I don't understand where you would have the delenda there.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
But Oman was saying, you got to look out for
yourself and bring gold back to the family. Don't don't
work like, don't put at risk rich Am I interpreting
that right? Don't put at risk your health going into
the main event match later in the night. I'll look
out for myself. You look out for yourself, I Roman's advice.
I don't have the wording in front of me, but
it was like, yeah, focus on looking out for yourself.

(25:19):
That's what we do, rich go ahead.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, because he even mentioned you started this looking out
for me him, be it me being Roman, then it
was your brother, then it was punk, and then it's
all these other guys, because even when he said punk,
he had to look at disgust on his face because
that's another unresolved threat. I can't wait to see get
pulled later. So I did it, and I mentioned this
in the roundtable when we did the PLEE. I think

(25:42):
there was a limit to ridiculousness with that timing of
the run in and him even explaining it on raw
didn't excuse it all, but there should have been some
con like, if anything, this would have been a good
time in Waye's going to say this is terrible, so
I'm prepared for it. This is the time for the
unnecessary WWE angle that we don't need, but in this
case could have helped of seeing him conflicted in Gorilla,

(26:05):
not go in and then go in.

Speaker 6 (26:07):
And there's a way they could have told that a
little bit better. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Why do.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
You think I why do you think? I say that's
a terrible idea.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
Because that's that third angle from the barbershop window that
you don't necessarily need. Why would they be filming him
in Gorilla at a time where his cousin's getting beat up.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
I think they could have explained that I think the
I think Cole could go, you know what, where's Jay,
Where's Jay? Rome's getting beat up? And then and then
Bart can go, I I believe we hear word he's
in Gorilla and then they show him. I mean Gorilla's
Gorilla's cannon, and I think you could have a I
think you could explain. My issue would just be if
he if it was the first time they ever showed
him in Gorilla and there was an explanation to show him.

(26:44):
As long as there's a conceivable reason you'd filmed somebody
before they're on TV, then I'm fine with whatever happens
at that point, but there should be an explanation for
a filming. My issue just showing somebody walking backstage for
no reason for three seconds until something completely unexpected quote
unquote happens or someone makes it interesting by confronting them.
You would never just show them walking for no reason,
or the opposite. At the end of an interview where

(27:05):
they show someone walking after the interview's over, they're like,
why are they showing them walking for three or four seconds?
Something's about to happen. But the way it's framed to
us as the viewers, there was no way to foresee that,
and so that's what makes it fake. But as long
as like they literally go, wait, barkaill, where's Jay? He
should be look helping out and Cole goes, hey, he's back,
states let's go look, you could actually tell that story
and that might have would that have satisfied you? Sean better?

Speaker 6 (27:29):
It would have been better again, And that's my fuck
is with Jay. He's like the ultimate babyface right now,
and it's like, Okay, he's getting beat up for this
long and you all of a sudden and it was
too long. I mean, the beatdown was cool because it
got heat on them, and that's what I've been wanting
them to get his heat, legitimate heat, and they did it,
but it was just so like, oh my gosh, they're
drawing this out and then it looks bad when faces

(27:50):
don't come out no matter who they are. It's like,
this guy's getting beat to shreds, like we need to
do something to stop this guy these people and they don't.
And so just give me some kind of background other
than Jay feeling like, oh, you know, should I have listened?
Like yeah, you should. You shouldn't have listened because the
match was over. He won, he's getting beat down. Do
something to stop it. I don't care if you have

(28:10):
a match or not. You're supposed to help you your
family in need. I mean, it wouldn't matter at that point.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
Jay is a follower and Roman is this macho guy
who's a triple che setting rules for his family. You
could say it's on Roman for having rules that seem
a little absolute and ill advised, could you, Rich, Yeah,
I mean he knows Jay's a follower. Jay's just doing
what he's hardware to do. He's just hardware to follow.
I don't know if you want to, you know, criticize
a butterfly for not flying straight like they flutter around

(28:37):
you know Jay, Jay doesn't really, he doesn't. He just
does what people tell him and tries to stay accepted.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
I don't know that, Rich, Yeah, it's one of those.
To me, it's Roman trying to be the positive, toxic boyfriend.
He's done so many mind games with Jay over the
years that this is the one time he wasn't doing
a mind giving. He was legitly me giving him almost
big brother, a big uncle advice, and instead Jay was
his programming was conflicted, like do I listen to the

(29:05):
letter of this or do I help him?

Speaker 6 (29:07):
Knowing?

Speaker 3 (29:08):
Kind of similar role we see with Oscar being an
absolute jerk to EO and Kyrie being the audience or understanding,
like scared puppy what's going on.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
You can imagine Hymen berating j for not being there
for Roman, and Ja's like, but but, but, but Roman.

Speaker 6 (29:22):
You could that would be founding great And why do
you have to get hurt too?

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Geez?

Speaker 6 (29:26):
Now you're gonna be out for a while, thank no.
And even tonight Darrell just brought it up, and you
can bring it up here in a little bit. But
you know, he said, you know, Jimmy Deven tonight, it
took a while for even Jimmy to come out like
he did. But it took a while, Like they were
had already gotten beat down after the along match. They're
getting beat down, and then Jimmy all of a sudden
is randomly, you know, it feels like Forever comes out.

(29:47):
It's like, man, like, that's your brother, dude, come out
and save them, Like why are you waiting so long?
He's already getting they're getting crushed. It's just kind of weird,
you know. Yeah, And the thing about Roman too is
I know I told you as before and I and
again I'm not gonna go off on the segment because
I got heat on Roman after he won. I just, man,

(30:07):
I know he got that contract, but man like, he
needs to be around more and now it's just this
thing to get him off TV for another long time.
The fans want Roman now more than ever, and he
just I know again I get the contract, but dang,
this is a story where to build to a Roman
seth match. I want him around more, and I just
think they're you know, now he's gonna be gone for

(30:27):
a while, and we're just gonna have this slow build,
you know, forever. And I just think Roman should be
on TV more than he is. He's a big star
now and fans want to see him around. But it
is what it is.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
Yeah, I mean, Roman has a leverage. You wants to
be not traveling, he wants to be home, wants to
do his other projects, he wants to be with his family.
I if you have that leverage, take advantage of it.
But from a dough to be on camera, you know,
TV product standpoint, and for the sake of the fans,
I mean, I guess this would be the when you
balance it out rich is it is some Roman better

(30:56):
than no Roman, because that Roman has walk away money.
Roman is for He's like, I'll just walk away. I'm okay,
I'll go do I can do whatever I want to do.
I got time freedom for the rest of my life.
All you're trying to do is allow me to buy
even nicer toys or pass along money to other people
in my family who didn't earn it, but now they'll
haven't made from their twenties on. I mean, that's kind

(31:17):
of the type of money he's getting now. So is
it better to say yes to that and utilize him
as a special attraction at this point? Or are you
sort of bigfooting the people who are around every week
by having them have to take a step back when
Roman shows up, And so it sends the signal. When
Roman's around, he's a biggest star. So when he's not,
you're watching the secondary stars pretend to be top stars.

(31:38):
And that's always the you know, the trade off when
you do this.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
I don't see it as because they know the food chain.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
They all know Roman's the top guy, and they know
he is that guy because he's earned that spot. So
I don't feel like there's going to be any animosity. However,
that subject to change without notice based on you know,
for instance, he had more leverage once he had that
interest in line when he saw people Boo and Cody,
and both of them are now leaving to do the

(32:07):
Street Fighter movie. Only one of them got the soul
breaking beat down and the other person just.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Gonna kind of disappear for a few months.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
I wonder, is this not just generational money for him,
but it's also generational opportunities and money for his cousins
and anyone else that's in the family that was in
the bloodline. It's given a bit of another feather in
the cap of Paul Hayman late in his career. And
I think he has been the goose that laid the

(32:36):
golden egg in his third iteration as a babyface, and
so I think until he proves he's no longer worth
the squeeze, let him have the juice.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
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(33:12):
starts at nine dollars in ninety nine cents to reach
yourself to a streamlined, add and plug free listening experience
with a VIP or Patreon membership. A couple of comments
in the chat, Shan Chris Fonner says special attraction status
may really help Roman from getting overexposed to work for
Undertaker with as many returns in the twenty and twenty tens.

(33:32):
Durell says Punk called oh that was We'll bring up
Punk called out Beckan Sef and not being on all
the live tour dates overseas, so kind of on topic
a little bit in the sense of, you know, trying
to time out everybody and have them not be overworked
too too much. Sean back to you, what.

Speaker 6 (33:48):
Else, Yeah, So, knowing that's the women stuff, I do.
I am intrigued by the EO oscar stuff, even though
it's not for some people, but I like what they've
tried to do to you know, to get them kind
of having like EO is trying to be still close
to them, but Oscar's pushing away and like, you know.
And then then they brought up the sky that they

(34:08):
were doing the EO Stephanie one on one match at
Ressell Paluza, which I really liked that. I was worried
they were just gonna put a four way match or
do some weird thing to get a random match between people,
when I was like, oh gosh, I'm kind of worried.
So when he said the one on one, I was happy.
There's a dilemma for me. I'm kind of interest to
see where they go. I'm assuming even though Stephanie to
me is the bigger star right now. I love Stephanie.

(34:30):
I'm I think there's a lot of potential, but I
would almost have EO win because I think EO has
been even though she's had the title, she's been a
little underutilized. I would like EO to win the title,
even though I don't. I don't want, I don't. I
wouldn't love Stephanie losing. But if they can build EO
up for a while and have them build to the

(34:50):
Oscar EO Oscar title match for for a while, let
them do a few for a little bit, and then
have Stephanie either win the Rumble and go to Mania
to f for the title again and win it because
I want her to be built is a babyface up
to win the title, not just have her win and
random magic against EO, even though they have a little
bit of history. But what do you guys think about that?
How do you think they're going to play that out?

(35:11):
Where do you think is going?

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah, Rich, where do you think they should go with that?
What do you think the point sew made?

Speaker 4 (35:16):
Well?

Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think Sean has a good point.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
I think one of the things I've liked about Osca's
whole behavior in this and how EO and Stephanie are
kind of in there and it's going to lead to
a lot of bad feelings between Ripley and Osca as well.
Osca isn't wrong that she's the most decorated wrestler on
the roster as a woman. She's now thrown her weight
around in a way that makes everyone uncomfortable. But I

(35:39):
think that's fun because much like Roman we mentioned when
he was a heel, she's playing some wild mind games
and it's just because she's using her friendly, like I'm
happy Japanese woman voice, it's I think we're loosing. Until
Kyrie started adding the facial expressions, we lost a little
bit of that.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
But when she got into.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
Rhea's face and said, I am the most decorated woman
on this roster, I'll push who I want well done.
On the other side, Eo has now proven she's the
top dog in the women's division her and it's maybe
one A, one B, one C when Bianca's healthy and
Ria is healthy. But now enter what's going on with Stephanie.

(36:21):
I think Stephanie's a tour de force. She is one
of the few women they've elevated in such a quick
time that has taken to the main roster in the
way she has. Part of that was Booker t kind
of getting over the Devil's Kiss. Part of it was
just her excellent wrestling, and so I want to see them.
They could have done that at the pl That's my
one issue. You already knew these two women had either

(36:44):
beaten the champ or should have had a chance to
beat the champ. Just make them the person the person
that wrestle for the title. They could have done that
in Paris, they didn't want.

Speaker 4 (36:53):
To do it.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Now it's going to be on ESPN because of course
it will, and so that gives them a bigger platform.
I'm kind of happy all the way, actually considering this
could be a great platform for Stephanie to kind of
get put on a pedestal, so to speak.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Durella in the chat says, e it's a bigger star,
and it seems like they're building a longer story with
one part Oscar and Kyrie moving away and then the
megaplowers of VEO and Rhea joining than the second part
is EO versus Rhea, So a lot of moving parts here.
Derek Mitchell adds, if Oscar Kyrie weren't being used on TV,
people would be complaining. I like that they're being used
and it wi eventually lead to them turning on EO
and hopefully lead to some good TV. Derek, just because

(37:27):
people would be complaining if they weren't on TV doesn't
mean they're not allowed to complain about how they're being
utilized when they are on TV. That's a false choice,
and Tya says, I hate how Michael Cole says that
was weird. After each EO kabuki segment. He's done it
two or three times now it feels to meaning to
the story they're trying to tell. Now. My thinking is
maybe he's commenting on the fact that the way they're
portrayed as these shrieking, hysterical women as an old stereotype,

(37:52):
and men aren't asked to act that way, although the
judgment day sometimes do but in a more dignified way.
I'd argue I might put it in every way, which
is Cole is going, can we have can we please
let these grown women act in a dignified way instead
of having them screeching yell. I actually think it's been
better like tonight, and it goes bad last week and
the week before, I think it's gotten a little bit better.
Or it doesn't just end with them, you know, shrieking

(38:14):
and being in hysterics. But it might be more of
a commentary on the way that they're asked to portray
themselves more than it's a comment on them. Maybe I'm
giving them too much credit.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
What do you think, Rich, I think some of that's
also a commentary on AMERICAUS. Anytime I watched Joshi or
Men's Poor Risk, it's like that you can start talking
all of a sudden, people's voice, they put the bass
in their voice, they put more alto in their voice,
and it just starts rising. If anything, I thought it
would be helpful if they added subtitles so you could

(38:47):
get the subtext of the fact that they in fact
were speaking like, it's not gibberish, they're actually talking crap
to each other right there, And they did that. I
want to say it was two or three years ago
where EO and Osca in the middle of a tag
mat were saying stuff to each other, and they put
the subtitles under it.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
After the fact that they're like, oh wow, they.

Speaker 3 (39:05):
Really were going at each other in a way that
I didn't think people could on television, but because it
was in Japanese, they yeah. And I would also point
to there's a comment when you get to it, it's
it's a little bit of Osca being way too controlling

(39:25):
on the friendship status of everyone. Sure, and that's that
toxicity is starting to spread into the goings on of
just passers by like Rhea, who I would take the
moment to point out. I didn't point it out during
the plee, but the fact that she had to go
on the social media and say please don't show up
en mass and basically rush me in a public space

(39:50):
because that is not safe and I don't feel comfortable
and if you keep it up, I'll stick to be
in Rhea instead of being like myself out in those situations.

Speaker 6 (39:57):
That wasn't cool.

Speaker 3 (39:58):
That was where the French crowd went totally left the field,
and that was that was unsafe.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Interesting. A couple of other comments I'll throw back to
Sean regarding this discussion we're having. Derek Upbard says, I
hate how ask acts. I assume that is how I'm
supposed to feel, but it's cringe inducing. I think they
need to remind the audience of what step Stephanie Vakres
all about. She has been m i A for three weeks.
Salar Version three says, I think doing io Steph at
plouzas a happy accident, since they can build a feud

(40:25):
now in Paris to just be a random match, but
now they can build a feud, especially the Oscar park.
Ryan Solario says, Oscar is acting like this serious traditional dad,
Kyrie the submissive mom and EO trying to start a
forbidden romance with Rhea lol and Salle Vision three says,
my thinking is that it's easier to have the Japanese
women over remote and over act because it's easier for

(40:47):
the audience to convey or understand their emotions since promost
can be tough for them sometimes. And I think that's
part of it. I think they're saying, you know, like
Richie said, you know, captions would be good. Maybe they're
asking them to turn it up a notch so that
we can read what their emotions are since we won't
necessarily understand or they can't articulate in words in a way,

(41:11):
they're trying to have them make up for it. But
even if that's what goes on outside of w B,
in the context of w B, it's still it seems
demeaning to me. Cether Vision three says, I agree that
it's demeaning. Just trying to guess what DAWB is thinking
with that. He just wanted to clarify that. Derek adds
the eo Oska Kyrie and Readynamic as two adolescent girls
in tone for my taste. In a perfect world, adults

(41:32):
of any gender would not act that way, and Derek's
kind of summarizing my thoughts there, it does kind of
feel like, you know, just middle school arguing and it's
not outside of the context. Also just American men running
companies telling women how to act on TV and what
they think would be entertaining for their audience or what
is how quote women act when there's tension. But again
there's you know, there's men who don't act particularly dignified

(41:54):
either in their exchanges. But there's something about this that
feels different to me and some other people in the chat.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Well, one thing I would generally push back on Derek
is we see this with Roman reigns with Sampunk. Like
I mentioned earlier, every time he brings up Sampunk, it
isn't that Campunk is this natively bad guy. It's he
stole my manager from me. He stole my wise man
away from me, And how can you trust a man
that stole my wise man and not think about the
fact that Paul Hayman has Paul agent, Paul Hayman has

(42:24):
agency of his own to determine who he's going to
hang out with and why. So it does show up
on the men's side, but I think it's a little
more subtle and more nuanced with the women it's usually
more ham fisted, and even when you think about Kyrie,
every time you hear her name, now she jumps and
there's a laugh from the crowd, instead of it being
this is terrifying. Why are you your supposed friend making

(42:47):
you agitated to even hear your own name?

Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (42:54):
In twenty twelve, NXT transitioned into the developmental system and
ultimately the brand you see today. On the Torch VIP
podcast NXT Eight years Back, we'll be taking a weekly
look at this page in NXT's early history.

Speaker 9 (43:10):
Join Kelly Wells and me Tom Stout from PWT Talks
NXT every Saturday as we go eight years back to
the day to track NXT's rising talents and why they
did or didn't work out Exclusively for PW Torch VIP members.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
If we talk, don't talk about the amplification of the
way that they're telling the story over the top way
that I think it can be seen as demeaning or grating.
I think you have an interesting dynamic of Osca being,
like you said, the pushy friend, controlling Kyrie, trying to
be the peacemaker EO, wanting everyone to get along, but
being willing to stand up for her self. I mean,

(43:46):
there's a lot going on there that I think is
I don't want to not give credit to the idea
that this is capturing a complicated dynamic with people who
have been together in aligned and now there's you know,
can you trust Osca Probably not sure or not. She's up,
you know, she wants things a certain way and she's
being in control freak, and I think that's an interesting
character for her instead of just saying, you know, no

(44:08):
one's ready for Osco for and over again. So I
mean there's something here. It's just I think they could
dial it down and get and get the point across
with There's all kinds of theories on words coming from
that we've talked about and the chat has had to say.
But but I think they were better tonight than they happened,
So maybe they are kind of cognizant of that and
shifting a little bit, uh Sean back to you.

Speaker 6 (44:26):
Yeah, because especially go back to when Derek said about Ria.
I mean, I think Aria was fine tonight. I mean
I think she was trying to be just a woman
about it, and Oscar just you know, acted the way
she was acting, and Ria was just like all right,
you want to get in my face. I mean, we'll
have something to say about it. But I mean I'm
just trying to do the right thing here and so
Ria and that's what fun about the YO Stephanie really
quick too. I want to say with Stephanie, that's why

(44:46):
I wouldn't have her win the title right now is
because she's been all of a sudden it's gone for
you know, whatever time it's been. I mean, she won
the random Battle of Royal, which I don't I still
don't love getting title shots that way. I wish there
was a better way to go about it. But Stephanie
is good the big star in the future, but EO
right now, they could do something with her with a
title run that actually means something, like if the title

(45:06):
on her had it mean something. When she had the
title the last time, it just didn't feel like there
was a lot there. They were telling the other story,
but they were just EO was a title as a
champion just didn't feel felt very miniscule. Do you guys
feel where I'm coming from with that? The last title
run she had.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
Rich what do you think?

Speaker 2 (45:29):
I think? I think the last run was fine.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
It was a little clunky, and I think some of
that was the decisions they made in terms of what
was going to be next, and then those being undone
by the pregnancy, not in a negative way by any means,
And so because of that, I think it left a
lot to be desired with this one.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
If it were to happen, I feel like it has.

Speaker 3 (45:53):
To be Stephanie in my opinion, because if you're going
to be on ESPN, it sets her up as the
person that now EO can be pushed off to the
side and feud with Oscar and company, and Rhea can
then set her sights on Stephanie and make it into
who's the true mommy? Again to Derek's point, they only

(46:15):
go into reductive stereotypes, So who is the true mother
of ww raw in terms of the champion? And I
think that'll help Rhea be a little bit more herself
as she gets to kind of use the positive sexuality
she brings to her character. Stephanie can do the same
thing while also being tough women, and I think that
might rehab her in a way some of the crap
that went down going around her prior reign did.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 6 (46:38):
No? And that's you brought up that good point about that.
I'm with you there, that would be cool if they
did that. I just like better build ups to title wins.
I just don't like somebody winning a title in a
match and just not have something before that to make
you really invest. I mean, we're invested. So that's the thing.
I do like that the fans are investing in her already.

(47:00):
They do like her a lot, and so that's cool.
I just I hope if they put the title on
her right away, have it, you know, do have it
mean something, Have it be valuable. Don't just give her
the title and just kind of let her do her
random stuff for a while and just not make it
feel important.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
So I got what you're saying, John's I mean the chase,
take people on a journey when you don't know somebody
really well, anything else Sewan you want to bring up.

Speaker 6 (47:20):
Yeah, so go met to domin Aj, which was a
fun match. I just still don't like when Cole at
the beginning, when Dom attacks him before the bell and
he says, it's a it's a good thing to do,
it's a smart strategy. I mean, when are they going
to get away from that?

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I don't know why.

Speaker 6 (47:33):
They think that's a good idea, and it's it's stupid.
You know, Oh it's smart, but he's a freaking hee'l
get heat on him, be mad about it. Don't celebrate
and think it's a good thing to do. I just
don't know why they think that's such a good thing
to do.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
And and you know, I agree with you, Sean. I
will say this, this was mitigated slightly in the sense
that it wasn't a pre match attack. What was technical
premuch attack. But it was different than normal in the
sense that Styles was getting that crowd reaction. And the
way Cole phrased it is it wasn't smart. I think
the spirit of what he said is I don't like
you could say I don't like pre match attacks. But

(48:08):
it was a great his quotes. It was a great
move by Dominic to take Styles out of the moment.
And I'm not defending it. I'm just saying it's it
feels less what it usually is in something different, and
that's something special was happening. Titles on the line. AJ's
getting this getting buoyed by this amazing six minute, give
or take serenading by this crowd, and he was soaking

(48:30):
it up and I think and Cole could have used
better wording. But like Cole could have said, Dom clearly
shaken up by the idea that this crowd reaction is
going to give styles extra inspiration and it's gonna take
styles to another level, and Dom wanted to break that.
Now could they have I mean, it can't really ring

(48:51):
the bell and have Styles obliviously soaking up cheers. It
had to be a prebatch attack. But instead of I think,
what you're saying Sean for sure is Cole isn't one
He normally doesn't think that's a big deal. Thought if
he doesn't. But number two, he wasn't cognizant to the
fact that happens in the past and we've been critical
of it and people are critical of it, and so
find a way to state it or it doesn't seem
like something that's meant to get heal heat is now

(49:13):
good strategy. And that's the baseline criticism is heels attack
baby faces to get heal heat. And when you have
the narrative of the company contradicting that, then don't do
the angle in the first place. Don't have heels and
faces and go ahead try it. But if you have
heels and faces, and you're gonna do angles to try
to get heat on heels. Don't have a headwind needlessly
brought up by the commentators justifying something because you're taking

(49:35):
a fire extinguisher to the heat the heels trying to
get In this case, again, I disagree with that. I
would have worded it differently, but I think where Cole
was coming from this a little different.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
Rich.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
Yeah, I think if he said something like man, I
hate that he did it that way, but AJ kind
of opened himself up. I listening to that crowd the
second he turned his back on the domb, after all
the stuff they've been through, he gave a snake an
opportunity to bite him.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, and and Barred could have said something Cole could
have said, I never I never advocate for someone attacking
somebody before the bell. But if you're dom I mean again,
in his head, he thinks styles are getting some extra energy,
powered up energy from this crowd. I can see why
he chose to do it. And then Barrett could amplify
that and go, oh, what do you mean, You're you're
too soft in you're wording, You're you're hedging. That was
a great move. Let Bart be the one who says

(50:22):
it was a great move, but both of them should
be playing into the notion that Dom did it because
he's scared that Styles is going to get extra He's
going to have extra power because this crowd is motivating
him so much. I mean, who wouldn't have extra motivation
with that happening? And so instead it felt kind of
generic polstering, you know, nonsense, not kind of just wrote
announcing reaction to something where they're not even thinking about it.

Speaker 6 (50:44):
They just that's the way we do it. This felt different, Sean,
that's all. No, then that's fair, I want to say
real quick too. In its mid card, I mean, dragon
Ly has kind of been defined where he is. Unfortunately.
I mean they just don't see as much as maybe
a lot of people might have going in. But even
though I liked clean finishes and I liked that they
had more of those today, which was you know, they're

(51:05):
at least getting in a better direction as far as that,
I still, even though it's mid card, I still don't
love fifty to fifty booking. Just having dragon Ly BJD
last week and have Finn BEATAM this week, it's just like, okay,
like where are we going with it. I know it's
a mid card, it's like not a big deal, but
it's just, you know, just back and forth, wins, wins, wins, wins.
It's kind of like, okay, what is it doing for
any of these people. I mean, Finn's in Judgment day,

(51:27):
so helps he's got something. He's kind of going where
dragon Ly just feels like he's just kind of there
on TV having a good match here or there. So
I'm want to hear if you guys thought about you know,
anything about that, or if it's just mid card it's
not as big of a deal and it's like, you know,
just kind of do what you do.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
Rich would you think?

Speaker 3 (51:42):
Well, one, I thought the crowd made that despite his
being defined down. It made it awesome to watch that match.
They were super into it. They really brought some energy.
But I agree with you.

Speaker 6 (51:51):
The fifty to fifty they need to build people up.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Like you were saying with the women's division, this would
have been a good time to kind of establish a hierarchy,
but they wanted to kind of go to for tech.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Also, by the way, he's stead.

Speaker 6 (52:07):
Go ahead, No, I was saying.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
All right, I will go there's a little lay in
in in your audio or my ideo receiving your audio
when dragonedly looked ridiculous, and this is a luchador habit,
it's predominantly them. He played the crowd long after the
JD McDonald distraction had already delayed his follow up attack
on Balor. Hang it upside down in the corner. So

(52:30):
he fends off j D McDonald. Weill Balor's hanging upside down,
and then he climbs the top rope and then he
plays to the crowd before going for a move which
then wasn't effective. And I just, I mean, can you
make a baby face look more foolish and undisciplined then
than to have them think the whole point is to
get a crowd reaction more than win a match. It's
just and it's it's a it's a lucator thing more

(52:51):
than anything. I mean, it's pent as you know, it's
hard on Penta. People who love Penta didn't like I
pointed it out, But don't make it none true that
he looked foolish, and it's any rustler who doesn't, and
a lot of Russers do it. But it's like you
just wait for that spot with the luchadors where the
only way to have a move backfire isn't because the
opponent's resilient, it's because they aren't disciplined enough to stay

(53:12):
focused on the match and they get wrapped up in
fan cheers. So anyway, I just want to point that,
but it was fun match and I don't My answer is,
I don't think it matters how much because Valor's and
dragonly out of stage where it's they're sort of just
out there to have a good match, even Stephen and
try to establish JD as a pest and that's it.
I'm fine with that. I don't. I'm not gonna I'm
not gonna have a big issue with it, Richie on anything.

Speaker 3 (53:35):
No, I think this was another way for especially Finns
with his contract, another ad a boy for him and
JD is he's clearly been his protege for years and years,
even going back to training, so having him under his
wing and doing the tag team stuff, but then still
getting awesome singles matches with luchadors, which is something Finn

(53:55):
loves doing with even going back to his junior days.
I think this is for him fun and knows kind
of where he's at in the pecking order and doesn't
want mind it one bit because the check's clear.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Yeah, anytime you're watching WWE Raw or SmackDown or aw
Dynamite in particular, send us an email if you've got
thoughts on the show or a topic you want us
to address or a question for us. Wadekeller Podcast at
pwtorch dot com. Wadkeller Podcast at pewtorch dot com. If
there's anything else going on in pro wrestling that you

(54:27):
want us to address on our main podcast during our
mailbank segments, that same email applies Wadkeller Podcast at pw
torch dot com. We invite that interaction. Let us know
what you think of what we're saying, and let us
know what you want us to talk about and ask
us specific questions. Wadkeller Podcast at pw torch dot com. Oh, John,

(54:47):
anything else before we move.

Speaker 6 (54:48):
On that one to say you were bringing up earlier
if you did the Patreon I don't vip side, so
I hope you did the Patreon to make those patreon happy.
I hope, but if not, I'm sorry, guys. I don't
know what else to tell you, but I appreciate everything
you guys did go via everybody, I'll be in the chat.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
Thanks appreciate it, Sean. Speaking of which, if you're not
a VIP member, we welcome YouTube go vip. The sign
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We're here live every Monday, Wednesday and Friday with our

(55:28):
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(55:50):
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(56:11):
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(56:34):
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so you do need to subscribe to that to get
the PLA and pay per view access on our podcast format,
along with a lot of other good shows that with
great host covering specific topics. All right, let's bring Durell
Freeman into the conversation. Next to our next caller, Durell, welcome,

(56:57):
what is on your mind about this Afternoons us to
Night's episode.

Speaker 4 (57:00):
Roh are you doing? Way? How you doing?

Speaker 6 (57:02):
Rich?

Speaker 4 (57:05):
All right? All right, all right.

Speaker 7 (57:07):
I want to talk about the Vision as a whole.
I like today that they didn't have them come out
there together. I like that you split it the group together,
because the Vision right now is a group by name
the Vision that doesn't have a vision on what characters
they want them to portray. So I liked that they
did that. They did this, and you had Braun the
Brouns taking up for Paul and coming out there and

(57:31):
doing what they were doing, giving them something and allowing
them to show their character a little bit more and
talking on the mic.

Speaker 4 (57:38):
I like that brun Breaker came.

Speaker 7 (57:40):
Back at LA Night and and the things that he
was saying and still pushing that unhedged brun Breaker character.
And I like the continuation of the Brunston reed character.
I think that they need to do this a little
bit more, not all the time, but some of the time,
and keep Becky in there because I want to see

(58:01):
what kind of character driven lead this take them on
in the job light that they had the separated and
both doing and focus on two different things was still
a group.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
I'll throw this in and then throw to Rich for
comments on what Durell says. But in the chat, Chris
Foonner said, did tonight mark the start of a divergence
between Seth and Becky and Read and Breaker? That could
be a nice twist. I feel like Greading Breaker had
a decent night without being overshadowed by Seth's antics. We
got an email on that too. We'll get too, So yeah, yeah, Rich,
your thoughts on revisiting this topic from earlier with Dal's
comments in context.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
I really like the idea that they can do their
own stuff. Him saying he bron saying he was off
the leash and Bronson being in the Paul roll of
holding him back up to a point was pretty cool,
and then seeing Becky and Seth doing their own thing
pretty cool. The more they can do that, like Durrell saying,
the more you're going to have an effective group. I
think of it, like especially Hayman at the Wheel with

(58:57):
something like this, the Triple Threat in ECD when they
were at their most potent because you had sure, you
had the franchise, Shane Douglass, he was kind of the
titular title champion, You had the tag champs, but you
also saw them as kind of like doing their own
thing while also doing crazy stuff like he had at
one point Chris Candido tag team partners with Landstorm. They
hated he cut each other's guts. That's a storyline off

(59:19):
to itself. While the Triple Threat had their things going on.
You've seen it with the Horsemen, You've seen it with
really good groups, the ability to multifacet and multitask. You know,
as long as they don't turn them into the million
What was at the not the Millionaires, the mob themed
impact one that the main event Mafia, the own tournament

(59:39):
to the main event Mafia, and you're fine because then
you have Scott Steiner's screaming for Jeff Jared every five minutes,
and we don't need Brown Breaker to turn into that
version of his uncle.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Yeah all right, Trell.

Speaker 7 (59:52):
And Yeah, I agree with that as well. But I
like what they've seen. And going back to that that
first segment they came and I liked the back and
forth between Jay and La Knight. You had both of
those guys, which they usually don't do WW as a
whole talk about what happened the night before and what

(01:00:15):
that meant to them and why it meant something to them,
and where is it taking them now? That's why I
like when j came out there and said, I'm not
going to do or replay. It's in my head, but
I'm not doing it because this is why I lost.
I wanted to be here with you guys celebrating the title.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
I can't.

Speaker 7 (01:00:33):
And then he broke down the other stuff, and I
like when La Knight came out there. Then I liked
what La Knight said to Jay and emphasized what Jay
was talking about earlier and what Roman had told him
that Yeah, you did this, you slipped up. We could
have took ourselves. You did this, you worried about too
many other things. Then doing what we should do to
get what's needed to be done. Hopefully that's a way

(01:00:55):
to be a Jay's character, keep La Knight going, and
maybe this bringing them off into a matchup for whatever
to see. As Rince was just saying, they give you
the different layers of the main event scene right now
who at a different level.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Yeah, So two things. One, there's way too much babyfaces
bickering with each other, But that doesn't mean each and
every segment isn't defensible in isolation or most of them,
and it doesn't mean that there aren't different levels in
terms of this was the time to do it. But
sometimes it feels like it's too much, you know, and
we've seen that with Riha, for instance, a lot of

(01:01:34):
this year. This is one of the better times. And
it's for the things you're saying, Durell. This this was
the opposite of John Cena, who just blows off what happened,
moves on to the next thing. They're lamenting a loss.
Durell's nodding to me for everyone in the podcast out
of things, uh, Sina just blows things off. He's like, oh,
that's title. I remember how I cared so much about
that in the four weeks when I was trying to
get you to watch the match. Well, now I lost it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
I don't care.

Speaker 1 (01:01:55):
I'm moving on other things. And in this case, they
are ing their loss and they're kind of revisiting their
role in it, and in this also really put a
focus rich on the world title being important. They're putting
that ahead of trying to be nice afterwards or oh
it's you know, it's too bad that happened. They are Ellie,

(01:02:15):
and I was like, I wanted to walk out with
the world title. Jay, It's like, my ribs are taped
and I should have a belt here instead of taped
rib So they're making the world title seem important. They're
not sabotaging the company or being as self centered as
John cenas Bean and his promos. And it has a
lasting positive effect. So I'll take that as as a
positive that overrides even though it's a trade off more

(01:02:36):
baby faces going at each other where the fans at
home are like, we just want to like you. Why
do you make us every week try to pick sides
between people we like. That's not why we tune into wrestling.
We get enough of that in real world. Let us
just like somebody who's facing someone we don't like. And
that should be a higher percentage of Paul X's booking
than it is. But he likes to have the nuance
and you know, and this is a better version of it, Richard.

Speaker 2 (01:02:57):
That's yeah, And that's the levech thing.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
He wants the shades of gray every does. He wants
to be what I mean, it'll like bil Alfonso. He
doesn't want it to be good and evil. He wants
it to be And we talked about this a few
months ago, and everything he wants it to be prestige,
like going on a very tumultuous season of uh Game

(01:03:21):
of Thrones or the White Lotus, but they're not giving
us White Lotus level acting situations. Yeah, it's it's like
waiting for Guffman. If you ever saw the Christopher Guest
movie where all these people thought they were really good
actors and they are so bad at their jobs they
don't realize people aren't coming because they're bad at their jobs.

(01:03:43):
And so same thing here. It isn't a disrespect to
say I want to boo yah. It's actually the highest
form of flattery. I want to go back to the
basics of pro wrestling. As I shake my camera.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
I you know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
One of the things with Scott Steiner, Scott would always
take the too far and say things that were a
little too off the cuff, but you knew whether he
was a face or a heel, he would say some
wild stuff. Same thing with Rick honestly, whether he's in
character outic character, but you knew where they stood right now.
Seth Rollins will say something that is scathing to the

(01:04:19):
front of the audience and then start doing this to
get them to sing along. That doesn't help anybody, yep.
But I do like, like you said, they're elevating that title.
It isn't just seeing that the title that Cody didn't want.
It's now seen as its own legitimate entity, and I
think that for that they should be praised.

Speaker 10 (01:04:42):
Longing for some nostalgia or maybe you want to learn
some wrestling history, don't miss the Nineties Pass cast every
Friday on the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed. Alex and
Patrick will transport you thirty years into the past by
taking you through the Torch issue from that very weak
following news from the WWF and WCW and all the

(01:05:02):
happenings from across the wrestling industry in real time as
The Torch reported it thirty years ago. That's the nineties
Pass cast every Friday for the PW Torch Daily Cast Feed.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
And I don't think this is a situation with the
term use that we've banned from the show because it
means and the reason I I banned the term is
because it means different things to different people, and it's
also a broad generalization for people who are'm thinking through
their arguments to defend something that they actually can't articulate.
So I'm challenging people to not use that phrase and
instead explain it using different words, because we've lost track

(01:05:44):
of what it actually means, and people just lean on
it as a as a broad statement to defend some
other version of wrestling that they actually can't explain articulately
to me enough to make me understand it. You did
a good job once you moved away from that banned
term to our ticate your thoughts, and I actually this
is a good example where I actually don't think it
was shades of Great because I don't think Ella A
Knight had shades of gray. He was a stand up

(01:06:06):
guy who wanted to win a world title, and he
was pointing out jay strategy cost one of them upsetting Seth.
That's pure baby face. There's no shades of gray there.
When two baby faces argue, that's not two baby faces
in a Shades of Great situation. It's two baby faces
which had a selfish, selfish a justifiably self interest in
an outcome that benefited them. But they have this complication,

(01:06:29):
which is they also had a common interest to one
way there that gets built off of Seth because they
both hate him. So's it to me, it's a That's
why I will defend this segment as an exception, almost
an exception to my policy of stop making people choose
between babyfaces, because they both were on solid ground as
pure babyfaces who just happened to be in a match

(01:06:49):
where they couldn't serve in a united way one cause.
And I don't want Levec or anyone to say, oh see,
that's us doing shades of gray. That's not shades of
gray is when you have La Knight from one week
to the next, having a constitution that isn't consistent and
he makes decisions based on the convenience of the booking
or to try to make it seem complx like we're

(01:07:12):
at a higher level of complication because no one we
can't trust anyone to be to be guided by the
same principles week by week. And I think that's a sad,
cynical look at humanity in the world that leaks into
from politics and worldview into wrestling booking. And I think
it's sloppy.

Speaker 7 (01:07:26):
This.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
I don't want to endorse so too much because I'm
there's too many baby faces arguing. But this was rich
as you are as you laid it out. An example
of how to have a wrestler to wrestlers who you
like and can see both sides of it and not
come away thinking anything other than it's unfortunate they had

(01:07:49):
conflicting interests while also sharing an overriding common interest and
trying to dethrone Seth.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
So for me, when Levic brings up the band shades word,
it's essentially and I'll use the big old jargon here,
the anesthetical that there always must be in existence and
anti hero or anti villain if you want to even
go that far and start diving into like character creation,
that doesn't always exist.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
You don't always have a Steve Austin and.

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
It wasn't here in the second world.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
Yeah, when you live.

Speaker 3 (01:08:21):
In a world of Sammy Zanes, or you live in
a world of La Knights and Jay USO's, there are
going to be times like you said, Well, he clearly
says I got screwed, and then La Knight says you
screwed me and prevented me, and CM Punk says his
wife screwed me out of the title.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
All three are right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:39):
All three were wrong in the match, and we talked
about that during the pl e. The fact that jay
Uso signed up to give them the power bomb and
then did the did that. I'm going to listen to Roman,
but he did it the wrong time. The story of
jay Uso has been I want to be the boss
and I'm doing it in the way the boss told
me to do it. The story of CM Punk has

(01:08:59):
been I am happy to be here until the one
dude I still can't get along with won't stay out
of my business and I won't stay out of his.

Speaker 2 (01:09:08):
And La Knight has.

Speaker 3 (01:09:09):
Been parentally the guy who's maybe the as they say
in England, the nearly man, almost the champion, almost at
the mountaintop, and something always screws him up. And those
three forces met an evil character that played them and
used his wife as the plan z. And I can
appreciate the as Michael Cole would the complexity of that,

(01:09:32):
while also saying you didn't earn the complexity on television.
It was a trapdoor you created. Now you have the
opportunity to build it out. But I want to see
you continue to build it out. It can't just be oh,
my super hot wife's gonna help me when the other
guys get banned from Ringside.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
Because now it's going to be bad all of.

Speaker 3 (01:09:49):
The vision Paul Hayman, the Bronze Becky and their daughter
in case she decides to pop in the ring and
hit them with like a toy or something like our
family's band from ringside and now let's see where it goes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
But I don't know if they'll get that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
For we know they have the power. Just if if
Brown and uh Bnai, if you're turn of the building,
you're suspended and definitely in fine, they can do it,
and you can do it promptively. You don't have to
wait till someone has their ribs broken. Okaydo we said
a lout there?

Speaker 7 (01:10:18):
You want to anything or bring up in the a topic,
I add this, I agree with I agree with what
you said about that band on term.

Speaker 4 (01:10:27):
I don't think it was that.

Speaker 7 (01:10:28):
But I also go against a little bit what you
said as well about Babyface bickering. I come from a
background of uh coming with characters and anime characters and
heroes bickering with each other.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
I got Batman always bickering with Gardner.

Speaker 7 (01:10:47):
And they bickering with each other. I got Vegeta always
bickering with Gokul. I got and from the sports background.
I got a baby face as in your your number
one team in Minnesota, Anthony Edwards going back at the
other guys who at the top of the charge when
you're chasing something, you should bicker when you're chasing something.

(01:11:11):
And I like what you said that they made the
title the world title important if you make it that
they're chasing something because it only can be one person
at the top. It can't be two, it can't be three,
can't be four. It only can be one person at
the top. So we're bickering to get at the top.
We're not bickering to just be bickering. That's the point
down think they know how to separate. Sometimes they make

(01:11:33):
them bicker just to be bickering and not bickering to
a goal or focus, and we can be friends afterwards,
like once hours tours over.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
I'll add to this approaching genre affords us a chance.
It affords the bookers and the rest of the chance
to tell a story that isn't as frustrating and complicated.
As well, following your local sports team, when two of
your teammates who've been cheering for are at each other's throats,
progressing gets to eliminate that unfortunate aspect of sports. Some
of the time where you know, Kyle Anderson and Rudy

(01:12:05):
Gobert are punching, you know, or arguing, and then Rudy
punches him Like those fans don't want to see that.
They just want their team to be in harm WW
can book harmony among people with a common interest and
a common principle. Now this doesn't mean you should never
do it. My argument isn't you should never do it.
My argument is, and I say it every time to
avoid misunderstanding, they're just doing it too much. I agree

(01:12:25):
it should Like imagine Durell in your case of your
favorite sports team. If it happened all the time, the
headlines and all the talk shows will be talking about
the dysfunction on people who should be on the same page.
It's normal now, and then for there to be a
situation where they're not. And also anime and these other
examples you gave. They're not trying to sell tickets to
events where people cheer for the home team, the babyface

(01:12:48):
to win against a heel, to get that peak experience
for fans. Progressing speak fan experience is Sammy in Montreal,
Cody's journey. Those are the big moments, and you Leveck
is losing sight of that's what brought That's why people
bought these tickets months ago and they're riding this wave
of popularity. It's because of that kind of storytelling. Now's
out the time to lose sight of that or to
think it was something else. So don't overdo it. Pick

(01:13:12):
your spots, and when you do it, don't have ambiguity
with the characters. Make sure that it's clear that the Babyfaces,
even during bickering, are standing for something. They're each standing
for something that you can agree with, rather than being
the anti hero or a person who doesn't have a
constitution guiding them, and they just sort of blow with

(01:13:35):
the wind based on what's convenient for the booking or
to seem controversial, you know, in just some you know hackway.
You don't have to wait for the way Killer for
wrestling post show. To find out what I thought of
Monday Night Raw and SmackDown each week, you can check

(01:13:55):
out my reports that are updated live throughout Raw and
SmackDown at p w tis dot com. My written report
will tell you what's happening in detail in case you
missed the show, and it will also analyze key segments
and give my random thoughts quips on what I am
watching as it airs. So check it out every Monday
night and Tuesday night at pewtorch dot com. That also

(01:14:16):
applies to WWE payperviews. I cover those live at pw
torch dot com with a detailed written report with star ratings,
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first stop for TV and pay per view written reports.

Speaker 7 (01:14:45):
All you want to agree, I totally agree, and I
feel like this shouldn't even be in this time daynas.
They shouldn't even be anti heroes because they don't even
portray antiheroes too much like Daddy even even more they
portray they got to portray them as good or bad.
Look at the dead Pools and all the different types
of stuff. They just betray them a certain type of way.

(01:15:06):
Just have a goal, That's what I'm saying. They just
they don't have them talk about the goal too much.
And to go on to my next thing that even
show like with y'all was talking about with EO and
Stephanie back heart that next match. I feel like the
title should go to Stephanie because what they're mincing is
they're mincing and building characters and making people care about characters.

(01:15:28):
You had her off TV. If you feel like she's
a star, Let's see what she do. Get the title,
Let's see what she run with it. Take the title
away from EO and Real because it's been locked in
with just those two for the past year and a half.

Speaker 4 (01:15:41):
Almost three years.

Speaker 7 (01:15:42):
You got you somebody knew who seemed like they can
beat somebody. Let's see what they can do with new
challenges and add new things, because that'll show you have
what three four different unwomen main stories that they pushing
on TV on a constant basis that then you can
see who big.

Speaker 4 (01:16:01):
Seen as a bigger star.

Speaker 7 (01:16:02):
And once you start getting people to be seen as
bigger stars, it should make it more easier for you
to have those matches and not make it so people
have to bigger.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Yeah, the last couple of lines are so key to
when you have when you are protective of portraying your
top stars as clearly defined people who you have a
very consistent and nearly one hundred percent unified opinion on
and we had that with Cody early on with his journey.
We certainly had it with Sam, We've had it with
Jay earlier this year and late last year. When you
have fans uniting behind somebody in a positive way and

(01:16:34):
then also uniting with somebody against somebody in a negative way.
And by the way, Seth Rollins doesn't you know, you know,
it's pointed out when he plays to the crowd singing
his song. They're enjoying singing his song, and he doesn't
push back on bringing fans enjoyment. It feels like this
meta ego trip and it's this communal experience that is
bigger than his character that he doesn't want to undo.

(01:16:56):
So when you lose sight of that, it makes it harder.
But when you stay folksocused on, there's a there's a
baby face, there's a hero protagon at antagonists, and we're
going to consistently present them in a way where we
get the consistent emotion out of the fans. And and
this is the biggest thing of all. We portray them
as megastars, like we do not demean them, we don't
have them, you know, Like Ria I think has been

(01:17:18):
heard by the way she's been portrayed this year. She
showed weakness, She showed an on like a weird confusion
over how contracts work, like just so you when you
have big stars, you can mistake other things you're doing
for the reason you're succeeding. But it is the portrayal
of big stars and clearcut roles that I think is
a driving force. And Chris Faanner and the chat says,

(01:17:41):
rheas ambless without the title right now she needs a
big course correction. Rich, I mean, do you agree with
me that like the number one ingredient regardless of your
philosophy and heels and baby faces and whether that should
be the formula. It is w's formula in too many
ways to ignore, to to divert divert from that too much.
But is picking some people and portraying them as huge

(01:18:03):
stars that you want to pay to see and be
in their presence. They're rock stars. To me, that's still
the number one thing. And aw could learn from that too.
It's not Tony con specialty. Tony Kahn, you become a
star because you're a great wrestler, But dot Ve says,
we pick you, you have to have a certain level
of ring acumen and promobility. There has to be a baseline,

(01:18:24):
but we push people based on whether they seem like
they have that something special and then we amplify it
through our machinery.

Speaker 3 (01:18:31):
Okay, so I got three quick things, first to wrestling,
and then I'm going to nerd out and come back
to wrestling. To your point, I think about there was
something in the chat about Indianapolis and the ticket prices.
I thought about Peyton Manning and Mike Vanderjack, where you
had the Colts.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
They had issues in the playoffs.

Speaker 3 (01:18:51):
Vander Jack goes on a local radio show and he
talks about, I don't know, we got to run the
ball more eighteen just seems like you can't get it done.

Speaker 2 (01:19:00):
That gets to Peyton.

Speaker 3 (01:19:01):
They ask him a training camp or like mini camp
right before they get the training camp, and he's like,
I don't think you guys need to hear about our idiot,
liquored up kicker and he didn't show back up.

Speaker 2 (01:19:11):
That's when vander Jack was.

Speaker 3 (01:19:13):
Gone, and so you can show I have a version.
There's always main character syndrome, and I think when you
have a striated level of who's the top and who's
the bottom faces and heels. You can see if a
big face is going up against the little face and
that one person thinks they're the main character, they might
get smashed down.

Speaker 2 (01:19:31):
Think about Zach Ryder back in the day.

Speaker 3 (01:19:34):
No matter what he did, he went up against Sena
and there was a nice ceiling right there waiting for him.
And then Cain was kind of the dios x Makina
to literally shove him out of the way. And then
to your point, yeah, I think it makes sense to
have that and the third part that brings us to nerddom.
Darrell is right, but I think you're right. Derell's right

(01:19:55):
when he brought up Vegeta in Dragon Ball Z. But
when you look back when we were watching in the
early two thousands, the highest rating for that cell game
t Saga is like three hundred thousand, three hundred and
fifty thousand viewers. So like there was, it was We're
like Tna Meccha. We were small but mighty. But Vejeeta
is a great example of a character who, even as

(01:20:15):
a heel or a face, has a fatal flaw that
exists in both the worlds. His arrogance in the cell
games when he went up against Cell, he had the
guy beat So if this is a pro wrestling match,
he has the guy ready for a one two three.
He has to take a page out of a Game
of Thrones. He's dancing around the mountain. All of a sudden,
the dude absorbs Android nineteen and now he's perfect. Cell
Vegeta has to cry as he gets murdered. Like for wrestlers,

(01:20:38):
you need that fatal flaw. You need the jay Uso
that cares too much. He needs to not listen to
Roman and his heart on his sleeve can always be
his downfall.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
See him.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
Punk is Marty McFly from Back to the Future before
the car accident.

Speaker 3 (01:20:51):
Anytime someone says the right word to set him off,
faceror heel, he's gonna just dog on a bone. He's relentless.
You need to look at Jena. John Cena is the
dudes from Men in Black. Anytime he has a title loss,
he mine wipes himself or I guess I'll fast forward it.
For this younger generation, he basically is a severance. There's

(01:21:15):
an inner and outer version of John Cena. The inner version, yeah,
the any version doesn't care about the title. He's running
around he's doing the hand stuff. The audi is counting
his checks in the days until he can concentrate on
doing like movies and so as you look at these
characters or a logan Paul, Logan, Paul. As much as

(01:21:37):
I dislike the human, the wrestler is a phenom because
he shows to the crowd he does the work, not
just in the ring, but as a heel. He's not
looking even though he does flashy moves, he's not looking
to be cheered. He's looking to do those to spite you.
You didn't think I can do this. Watch me do
a Phoenix splash perfectly. You didn't think I could have
a match with John Cena. That's one of the best

(01:21:58):
matches in his final six month of his career. Watch
me do it and then brag about it on social
media while I'm also saying ten thousand other egregious things.
That's what they need to focus on instead of the
band word of Look at you know a last poor Horatio.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
I knew him. You don't need that stuff. Don't go
too big, don't go over your skis I guess, as
the old phrase goes.

Speaker 6 (01:22:20):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:22:23):
Jesse from Breaking Brack, that is exactly who jau so
is he is the guy that no matter how many
times Walter Wright screws him, He's still going.

Speaker 2 (01:22:30):
To get in the car and still drive to the house.

Speaker 3 (01:22:33):
And I'm not going to go any further in case
someone hasn't seen Breaking Bad and they're in the midst
of a binge and they're like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (01:22:41):
Yes, very good? All right, drell any anything else? Any
closing words.

Speaker 7 (01:22:48):
The last closing words would be, just where do y'all
want to see that women's title go to? I know
y'all was speaking on it briefly, but again, I want
to see it go to someone new. I want to
see what she can do with it and what can
you do to continue to build that stardom. Like you're saying, way,
I think they're forgetting how to continue to build those stardom.

(01:23:08):
You had her hot, get cooler all the way off.
Let's see can you build her back up. Let's see
if we believe that she can be on the EO
and real rip the scale and up there with them
because they need somebody. Because that's what Naomi just did.
Naomi made people care about that title because she was
building that heel character up to make people care about

(01:23:30):
it and to care about who she faced. I want
to see, can you make her who people were caring
about but you took it away. Can you make them
care about her again and care about who she faced?
Because the thing about having a star stars make you
care about what they do.

Speaker 4 (01:23:48):
The Alabama team just lost.

Speaker 7 (01:23:50):
People care if Alabama lose or win because they care
about that team, and that team has become a stardom.

Speaker 4 (01:23:58):
That's what you do, and they bring other people up
and that makes you start thinking.

Speaker 7 (01:24:02):
Now, Florida State, who was drifting off for the past
few years, specially since about and went away, Now you're
putting the back of interest in those guys. And they
have just made that quarterback into a star. That's why
he coming out now talking and talking his tract. Now
people are gonna be following him and seeing what he
did because he pulled off of their stardom and it

(01:24:24):
didn't dwindle Alabama started them. It just made people looking
at them even harder while they looking at him at
the same weight. So I want to see what they
do with that woman's tight and I feel like adding
that to Stephanie back here. You can do that and
then you maybe can bring a potential match up for
her at the rumba where you can bring a Blake
Monroe up and she could probably maybe upset her. And

(01:24:45):
now you just boom, you just got you another main
roster star who just up there to put up there
with those two, and she'll probably be there with those three.

Speaker 4 (01:24:53):
And now you got a four.

Speaker 7 (01:24:54):
And then whenever whoever you get come back, who are
already a star, boom with Bet who's a star and
she pulling people up, and obviously she might have aj Lee,
so boom.

Speaker 4 (01:25:05):
That's all. I was just trying to see what do
y'all think they should go?

Speaker 3 (01:25:09):
All rich, I think they should start with Stephanie, especially
if they're going to have it crowned at the ESPN
pay per view. That is great worldwide acknowledgment that this
is a new young star Wars building around, while also
highlighting some of the other women in the roster. I
think if they have a package that shows the ESPN audience,
this is what the WWE Women's division is as opposed
to the Cheesecakey Bella filled note that we haven't mentioned

(01:25:33):
it yet. Nikki Bella got booed tonight when they showed
her backstage, and so at this point show the athletes,
don't show the cheesecake. It's clear at this point folks
are here for the right reason, so to speak, with
the rustlers, they're not just the fantasies of Vence Ricman anymore,
or the folks that.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
Break through despite his fantasies.

Speaker 3 (01:25:53):
And then from there, if it is going to eventually
be Rhea, make her earn it, give her a path,
give her a story, give her a ernie. If it's EO,
same thing, and that journey starts with Osca. And then
if it's some of the other returners like Psycho Bailey
or whatever else is going on, let them kind of
bubble up to the top.

Speaker 2 (01:26:11):
Don't just microwave which whatever you have planned.

Speaker 11 (01:26:20):
I'm Kelly Wells, host of PWT Talks NXT, the longest
running NXT podcast Anywhere. Join me along with Nate Lindberg,
Bruce Lee, Hazelwood and special guests live every Tuesday night,
just minutes after NXT, where we cover the good, the bad,
and the ugly on the way to becoming a star
in WWE. Check us out live on YouTube or stream

(01:26:40):
later wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 7 (01:26:51):
Very good drout, Thanks so much, no problem, way, and
just one last thing, way, like you said about the Netflix,
it should have been about real ripley. If they do
the rastling pal loser and they make that about the
new star step in the back here, they can make
up for the mistake that they made that you called
them out on every time about you should have made

(01:27:14):
this about a new star and telling everybody how important
as nel.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
So hopefully they do that. But thanks nice talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
I appreciate it. Glad Drell brought up that point at
the end. They're rich. I think there's still there's a
gentering re Incara. They haven't done as good of a
job with the karas they did with Rha in terms
of the audience. Has very little to work with in
terms of bonding with Vicar at this point because she
hasn't been featured on TV and that ramp up. She
just hasn't had the ramp up. Insc Man over the
decades was very good at ramping people up. He knew

(01:27:41):
I think this person might be a star, and he'd
ramp them up step by step by step, introduce the
audience to them, hit some talking points over and over,
to the chagrin to some people like okay, we get it,
we get it, and he would you know, go a
little further than some people wanted. But he had the
ninety five percent of the audience in mind, not just
the you know, forty to sixty percent, to watch all
the time and remember everything plane afterwards. Once they think

(01:28:01):
they know, they don't want to end them to mention
it again because they think it's all about them. Vince
would upset them. But then you know, maybe take it
a little too far sometimes and that just hadn't been done.

Speaker 4 (01:28:12):
With like it was.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
There was a question the fix Mybak last week about
it like it the is levc doing as good of
a job introducing new characters as vincik Man did, even
if there's things about Vince that we can complain about
in terms of some of the way the characters were
you know, dumb down or cartoonigy you or whatever, but
treated in a sexist way, racist way all that, But
like the structure of ramping people up to the fan

(01:28:36):
base is something rear Ripley had a long journey on
going into the Netflix debut. The Characters hasn't had that.
Vi Kara is a hardcore favorite, but on the main roster.
I just don't think that they've done enough to establish
that she needs so Prince in principle generically agree with
de Rrel says, But I also don't think going to
ESPN on a pl is nearly as big a deal

(01:28:58):
as going on Netflix for raw, and I think that
would he needs to stop acting like reath Adoto Bee
fans are fans of Adaotobe. They don't care about how
much money they're making and their rights deals, and the
only innestudent being on ESPN or Peacock is what app
they click before they push play ws new money. They're
too giddy, they're spending too much. They're a little better
tonight on it than last night. But it's time for
Deobe to stop marking out for every new brand that

(01:29:19):
they're associated with and just convey the facts. Here's how
you watch our show. It's a new way you can
have a passing line. We're excited to be affiliated with ESPN,
but don't act giddy like this is a validation you've
always been looking for. I wrote this in my report
last night on PW Torch on the pay per view
when they did this, So I'm throwing in multiple things here.
I don't think going to ESPN is for pls is

(01:29:41):
the moment that Durrell wants it to be, or is
framing it as it's not the same as going to Netflix.
Netflix is going from cable to streaming. This is just
going from streaming to streaming, and it might reach you know,
a different audience, but it's still just streaming, so you
know some of it will be different. Go ahead, right now,
I push back.

Speaker 3 (01:29:58):
And say it's just streaming, but it's streaming with those
four letters. And you've seen Seth Rollins do interviews where
he talks about as a performer that sort of validation
being on ESPN. So as much as you're saying the
company like TKO is kind of sucking the marrow from
the bone of going into ESPN business, even if it's
just the app, I think the wrestlers themselves see this
as vindication or as similar to what I was talking

(01:30:20):
about before when I talk about the history of Nick
Conn as an agent. This is a way for them
to be seen as not just pro wrestlers. And so
that's a way where you know, back when they did
the WWE Network and Punk raised his hand and said,
how do we get distribution of wealth. How are we
still handling the houses? And no one else asked that question.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
It was crickets. This is their way to feel.

Speaker 3 (01:30:42):
An out of boy and an out of girl, which clearly,
as you say, isn't really what it's supposed to be,
but for them, they feel like it is because ESPN,
much like WWE, has done a great job of selling
that they're the end all be all.

Speaker 2 (01:30:56):
Despite them doing literally the same thing. Stephen A. Smith
and Paul Hayman do the same thing.

Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
It just happens one of them's done it for thirty
plus years in a ring and the other has done
it twenty five thirty plus years on TV when it
came to sports teams.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
And my issue is I'm fine with rustlers seeing is validating,
but I don't think the TV show and DOWEWB to
their fan base when their fan base is watching, should
act like it is a gift and a validation that
ESPN accepts them. I think they should come across like
ESPN needs us. They paid us a ton of money.
We're bigger than ESPN. We're actually producing a product. ESPN

(01:31:32):
is just a studio broadcasting things. They're just pointing a
satellite truck, so to speak at things. Is ESPN a brand?
Do they have some personalities? Yes? Are they synonymous with
you know, the history of Cambell, Yes, all that. But
to Adoe b Fan, they don't want to see Dodo
to be acting like, oh my god, she looked at me.
Maybe she likes me, like like in a high school,
like you're junior middle school, like, oh my god, she

(01:31:54):
looked at me. Maybe she all dated me? Like Doob
is just so pathetically giddy about every deal they have
just be old money, not new money. That's by thing.
New money can't wait to show off their jewelry and
their cars and brag about their vacation. Old money just
goes about living a lavish life and they don't flaunt it.
And Doughty just feels like giddy new money that old
money looks down on. And I think they should be
more dignified about it. It doesn't mean you can't go,

(01:32:16):
you can't frame it as a good thing. Just tone
down the giddiness and also don't under don't overestimate how
much the audience wants to know about how much more
money you're making in all these deals. Also, wrestlers seeing
it as validation. I don't know. I mean, I don't
think they I mean I don't think they should. I
mean just these sellout crowds are validation. The reactions are

(01:32:37):
getting the fact that ESPN paid them so much money
should show that they didn't need validating. But I guess
some people are marks for ESPN, so you know that's
going to come through. I just in this segmented world,
it's like NBC carring sentence made event was a huge deal.
I think Netflix s caring raw was a big deal,
even if the audience hasn't really you know, grown to
the level they thought. But anyway, rich Anye, I pushed

(01:32:59):
back a little bit on you do you want to anything,
I say, resonator, Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
I get what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (01:33:05):
I would say set I wanted to get his direct
quote because he says, this is huge for the industry,
a huge step for us.

Speaker 2 (01:33:12):
It legitimizes what we do.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
And I've had a wrestler to this fawned me with,
let's just say not the highest of thoughts about Seth
saying that, because it's like your work should legitimize what
you do. The praise if your co workers should legitimize
what you do exactly going on after first take should
not legitimize what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
Yeah, I mean Jeff Jarrett was so giddy back in
the early TENA days going on like Sports Center and
TNA had more viewers in Sports Center, Like, I mean
they did, you know. I mean, it's just like, it's
not that, it's just I don't know. I mean, I
want to make them. I get some of this. It's
just like we're a big deal. We've never been a
bigger deal. But it does come across a little pathetic.
Dereck Mitchell says, I think this generation wrestlers grew up

(01:33:56):
on ESPNS, so I understand why they think it's important.
But he also adds, I understand what Rich is saying,
but w feels like yes, she said, yes, you know,
And that's the part where I just think they're they
should be past that. And again it sounds absolute absolutist
to me. I'm not saying they shouldn't tout it. I
just think they're just going too far and it's unbecoming.

(01:34:18):
It makes them seem like, oh my god, she said yes, yeah,
as as as dare put it, Okay, I want to
wrap up here in the next couple of minutes. I'm
a little bit up against the clock. But Rich, what
other segment? Oh, you know what, let me do this,
I mentioned the email er. Let me read that first,
and then you can think about a topic you want
to bring up, a topic of food to close with,

(01:34:40):
Cavanti says tonight's episode of Solid, I'd love to get
your thoughts on Brown Breaker and reads promo segment with
a Night in Ja. It's I've been low key worried.
W's booking has been making Breaker a one trick pony,
building up only to his spear while not nurturing his
character work. In mic work tonight, someone addressed that letting
Breaker and Read flex their verbal skills without Seth and
Hayman shadowing them. Yes, it was, and I mention this

(01:35:00):
in my report. I hope everybody is breaking from social
media and checking out. What I'm saying about the TV
shows is the live report on them on the website.
I liked Broun Breaker having a chance to talk without
Seth rollins and Paul Hayman being option A and Option B.
It was like nice to see him have to carry
a segment. And then and someone in the chat I
said this, earlier. I don't know, I'll track it down

(01:35:20):
that they thought maybe Bronson Reid outshined even though he
talked less Braun breaker Rich, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (01:35:26):
Yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 3 (01:35:27):
It was I know we had some folks in the
chat mention it, but it was my equivalent of like
Baby's Day Out. They had no guard rails, they didn't
have Paul to step in, they didn't have set the
step in. And I like the characters having so much character.
I like Bronson being the kind of silent assassin, but
his promo was magnificent. When he started to yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Ante in the chat, I just put up I think
Reid is starting to outshine Braun on the mic.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
So yeah, email chat guy.

Speaker 3 (01:35:55):
Yeah, because Ron is going more towards his uncle with
the he won't necessarily because someone in the chad had mentioned,
like late stage Scott Steiner what he called everyone fat.
Just that's what he did at different time. That wasn't
cool then, but that's that's what he did.

Speaker 6 (01:36:09):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
But with Braun, he says a lot that's under his
breath that now becomes picked up by the mic, and
I like that part of him because it shows he's unhinged.
And you could see the rough edges that Hayman's trying
to sand down under this tutelage, but they're still there,
and there's triggers that are still there, and so that

(01:36:31):
I like, but I don't like him just breaking down.

Speaker 6 (01:36:34):
Say well, you're just a stupid poopy face, like you.

Speaker 3 (01:36:36):
Can see the beans and it's like the Steiner in
him just refuses to let it, let it like go.
And then on the other side, the bomb bast of
Becky Lynch and Seth Rawlins. I did not anticipate being
associated with Seth would make Becky a better heel. She's
a better heel than he is right now because she's

(01:36:56):
reinforcing his points without leaning into the music in any
of the other important.

Speaker 1 (01:37:02):
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sellar Vision three in the chat says Seth wants to
be the cool heal. I'mike Becky who's actively trying to

(01:37:45):
get booed. Another comment, Sean says that's a really good heal,
but man, the music hurts with people chanting his name,
and Chris Fonner says, sess wrestling i Q was taking
a huge hit. He should be demanding his music be
changed and has some change to his personality and eccentricities.
I think you're right, Rich. Becky is a better heal
spokesperson to get Seth heel heat. She's more focused. I

(01:38:06):
don't like when people grew Becky and Seth in the
same realm. Becky changed her music her husband did, and I.

Speaker 2 (01:38:14):
Really liked the way that.

Speaker 3 (01:38:17):
She addressed punk without dressing him down in a very
old school East. Like I said before, e c w
WA would have been his manhood or things like that
that worked they didn't. I really love the fact this
is the first feuds Punk's been in in a while
where there were no aw references. Now it's just these

(01:38:38):
guys don't like each other. They're both from Chicago and
they both see themselves as the king of Chicago, and
that's fine all Rich.

Speaker 1 (01:38:47):
Anything else from the show do you want to bring up?
We have certainly uncovered every segment on it.

Speaker 3 (01:38:51):
Yeah, that's what everything's for, Wade, I would say, the
only thing I would add in is I was at
and I'll go into this more probably on everything. I
chuckled way too hard at the existence of Grayson Waller
and the New Gooday like the fact that they.

Speaker 2 (01:39:08):
Are leaning into him. There was a show.

Speaker 3 (01:39:10):
Wade might not have seen it, but I think Derek
Durrell and some of the others in the chat might have.
There was the Wayn's Brothers TV show on WB the
first two seasons, they had a character that later got
written out called White Mike, and it was because like
every other mic they knew was black, so White Mike
was the guy that would.

Speaker 2 (01:39:27):
Always show up and say some crazy things.

Speaker 3 (01:39:29):
He's the white mic of the New Day, and I
like that because he's not trying to do things like
Vince McMahon trying to make him join the New Day.

Speaker 2 (01:39:37):
Would darn to put that man.

Speaker 3 (01:39:38):
In blackface and have him say like African American vernacular English. Instead,
he's just being this goofy Australian guy that they are
starting to glom onto because he's proven his worth and
the New Day even in their new theme song again
going back to seth Rollins, it's taken all of their
accomplishments and turning them into we're the best tag team around,

(01:39:58):
so we don't have to.

Speaker 2 (01:39:59):
Prove anything you got anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:40:01):
And the fans hate it because, yes, they can make
that argument in w w WE logic, but the absurd
hat that pent to broke all the other things for
their funeral for losing the tag title. They're silly, but
they're also still heels and they also know that's about
where they want to be right now. So I thought
that was a perfect storm of adding those three guys together.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Seal Vision three says, lol, the white mic reference that
is awesome. Cavanti says. Interest in seeing where the Grayson
and New Day situation is going. Bjff says, I liked
when the crowd is channing for Biggie and Grayson Waller
on the apron pointing to himself like they were chanting
for big g. Well there's something with Waller. Durrelsa's Waller

(01:40:43):
being who he is and adding his style to the
New Day adds something different than Biggie but also helping
New Day. After ww dropped the ball, I assume his
heel turn. So yeah, fun stuff, okay, rich Oh, I
already asked you. If anything else, I will throw a
couple comments up about esp as a follow up from
the chat, and I might get sidetracked if I see

(01:41:04):
something else I want to put up here. Chris Fonner
says pining for the respect and admiration of ESPN and
corporate entities is distracting and draining the passion from the product.
Derek Mitchell says, to be fair, ESPN is struggling with
their popularity and fans have turned away with personalities like
Stephen A. Smith and Pat McAfee. Four Eyes Malone says

(01:41:26):
flat out, ESPN is such a joke these days. Skip
Bayless steven a social media hot take culture is all
they want and yeah, I mean to me Dao Toe
should act like we're given ESPN the rub and that's
all I'm asking for, you know, we covered do to
b ESPN's I've been the ESPN studio kind of ey
there once, and it's just a it's a bunch of
people in suits who are scared for their jobs and

(01:41:48):
you know, looking at the chart of where they fall
and what their ratings are and how to get more
TV time. And I've seen hosts when they're not on
camera and they just look like I mean it's not
all of them, but they're like just fidgety and nervous looking,
and then the camera comes on and they're all confident.
It's like there's just a bunch of human beings in
a building and it's it's this brand and dough to
by X Like it's like again like the Q cheerleader

(01:42:11):
at school who you've been longing for since elementary school.
It's just like, just grow up and have some dignity
about all. This ESPN is not what there is. So anyway,
they were better tonight. So I had more rantom me
if they if they went like all like they did
over the past five weeks. And I understand you want
people to know you're going there, and you also want
to make it seem like it is a big deal.
I'm gonna get that. Just don't don't cross the line.

(01:42:34):
Charles bark Forest Mullen says, like Charles Barkley said about ESPN,
they're gonna work you like a dog. Lol. Yeah, all right, Rich,
I could go on. Let's wrap up there. I'm against
the clock for a couple of reasons here. Thank you.
Oh actually, droll so way you're saying ESPN is more
like Oldo be having their people walk on eggshells. W

(01:42:54):
I'd spend years since I was over there. I mean,
I'm not I don't want to generalize. I'm just saying
I was around. They're just they're just you. And when
the suits come on, they go in character. When the
cameras are off, they're just sitting there fidgeting, worrying about
their tie and looking around like Sammy Zaine is worried
about you know. I don't know. It's just they're building
it up too much. All right, Rich, thank you, you
mentioned everything. Let's encourage people to go vi ip. You

(01:43:17):
can actually get a free trial through Patreon.

Speaker 6 (01:43:21):
With a.

Speaker 1 (01:43:24):
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enter PW towards VIP and you get a seven day
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follow up on anything we've talked about today, email us

(01:44:06):
and UH and let us know. You can always reach
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at gmail dot com. Rich Thanks again, we'll talk to
you if Paul goes as scheduled tomorrow night for everything
for VATNA members. Thank you, Wade, but thanks everybody and
enjoy the rest of your afternoon. Slashy I think.

Speaker 4 (01:44:25):
We officially.

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Invite you to email the show with feedback or questions
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