Al-Andalus 1: Total Umayyad Victory

folks, today we embark on a new series about a place in the Medieval world we haven't covered much yet, Al-Andalus, aka the Muslim rule over the Iberian Peninsula. Al-Andalus is incredibly important to the formation of European states and the growth and power of the Catholic Church as well as a vital center for Islamic martial, political, and cultural influence for more than 700 years. so, we needed to cover it and now we are. we start with the background on the Iberian Peninsula following the fall of Western Rome, then discuss the rise of the Umayyad Caliphate and its massive empire, and the Muslim invasion and conquest of Iberia. enjoy!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's just been a lot, you know. They they they
elected the dang new pope after we recorded last week.
They couldn't have done it beforehand.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
No, no, you know, and it's like, so now we've
lost all this possibility of making all the excellent Chicago
style jokes I would have. It's like a temporary Chicago
and you know, a Chicago style pope running through the garden,
et cetera. Something about Malort. I could definitely do a

(00:33):
good line.

Speaker 3 (00:34):
In an American pope.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
I don't like.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
I really never thought, oh, this is fucking amazing that
like I am, I implore everyone to to look at
the Pope the way I am looking at the Pope
right now, which is as an atheist who is never
Catholic in the first place, but who nevertheless finds Catholicism
in the Catholic Church incredible interesting, which is to say

(01:03):
that this is so fucking funny.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
I don't like.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
To me, this is to me, this is the funniest
outcome bye, by far, the funniest outcome, Because Okay, you
get a guy who, uh like, the conservative Catholics are
gonna call woke, They're gonna say he's all bad, and
I mean like he you know, he he he. He's
progressive on certain things, which is cool, but you know,

(01:29):
he still doesn't want to get rid of paper, celibacy,
let let women be priests, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:35):
Et cetera.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
And uh so you get that, and you get that
he's an American, but he's not like, oh, American Catholics.
He's like, he's an American who is Catholic. And like,
so now you have this thing where like you can't

(02:02):
just you can like you can no longer be like, oh, this.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
Is just American Catholics. Like, no, it's not.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
The woke Pope is an American Catholic. How dare you
say that about about our beloved woke Pope. He's, uh,
you can't, you can't say that, you know. It's it's like,
this is honestly the funniest thing. It's also like America's
falling apart. Uh, the empire is crumbling in on itself.
And even so we still get total cultural victory. We

(02:30):
get total cultural victory because I think the last things
that we could that Americans could have achieved were being
a regnal monarch and uh, being the leader of an
old world religion.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
And we did it. That's it.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
But so my argument is though, that we're having an
American pope now because America's done oh yeah. It's like
where they're like, Okay, yeah, you can have an American
pope because America is no longer like the the global
Hedgemen essentially, and it's like, well, you can do this.
It's not going to be too much of an issue

(03:11):
that they're you know, the American president exists and also
an American pope exists, and so I think it's actually
quite damning in terms of what it says about America.
But I mean, we knew that we've done, but.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Knowing that that's not like yeah, to me, that doesn't
even occur in the calculus because like, yeah, I mean
we've been doing the show for over four years and
have been saying it the whole time like that, Like
we've been saying it the whole time. America is donezo.
It is h the empire is falling apart. We don't
know how long it'll be, it'll how long this goes.

(03:44):
Could be a week, could be five years, could be
eighty you know, I definitely don't think it's going to
be eighty now.

Speaker 3 (03:51):
But that's neither here nor there.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
But yeah, like to me, it's just like, I don't know,
he's the I think he's the best one. If you're
someone who wants to see the Catholic Church like legitimately
be better and you care about like it as an
institution to some degree, I think this is probably the
best you could possibly hope for because they're not going

(04:13):
to they're not going to a point like a like
a openly gay pope who uh wants to have women
become priests tomorrow and is pro abortion, Like that's not
that's not a thing that's going to get elected there.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Well, like you know, fundamentally, I'm glad he's not one
of those those opus day perverts.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
And also I'm hugely here for Beef Pope, the pope
who was elected because nobody likes JD. Vans Like right,
like it's very's like to be it is.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, they don't even Yeah, they don't even seem to
like him over Like even the conservative guys over in
Europe are like, god.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
You suck because he's fake with it, like it just
it's just sweaty, like I mean, and granted, this is
kind of like a you know, someone who is like
culturally Catholic or whatever, right, Like it's It's like one
of my like knee jerk reactions to this is that, like,
you know, all of my intensely Catholic family all live
in Chicago, and I'm like, don't love it. I'm like, shit,

(05:19):
they were vindicated, Like fuck, but I mean, shout out
to my family. I do love you, But like, I
think it is just true that he's so fucking weird
with it, Like regular ass when you're born Catholic Catholics,
we are just not like weird perves about it. You know,

(05:42):
We're not We're not like, you know, trying to fucking
We're not trying to beef with the extant Pope being
like no, I think he'll find that according to the
Council of Trent and just shut the fuck up, you loser.
And also I know your Latin's not good, so like,
don't don't come out.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
I would say, maybe you're not beefing with the Pope
about the same things, but I think there's a pretty
rich history of well if Catholics beefing with the Pope
about everything under the sun.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
Like I'm not I'm not even a Catholic, but you know,
I got pope beef. I've got really intense pope beef, obviously.
I mean mostly it's the it's the kiddy feeling.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
I don't like, Oh, what do you know?

Speaker 1 (06:24):
This guy's this guy's implicated in it too, because in
order to be in order to be a cardinal, to
get into the College of Cardinals, you either have to
have known about it or been personally involved in it.
There is no way right now, maybe in thirty years,
maybe probably going to take longer than that, but whatever,
it's still like it's the same.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
You were covering it up. You were covering it up.
That's just that's just what it is. And so I
don't like that. You know, two things can be true.
I could like going into a cathedral, which I very
much do, and all so I can dislike the governing

(07:04):
structure that makes those cathedrals possible because I'm a multitude
and you know, I'm capable of holding more than one
opinion at once, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
Yeah, I mean yeah, like the Pope, like, you know,
at one point the Pope is uh, you know, like
all of this is funny. I mean it is like
I don't I don't know another way to describe it
other than it's just really fucking funny that like that
that you know that that they elected like an American
as America is falling, but an American who is actively

(07:36):
at odds with the current American administration, and like it,
that's just really funny. Now, at the same time, these
people contain multitudes of horror, and they do some good
things and they oversee a lot of awful but like,
it's fucking funny. Like I don't know, I don't know
what to tell.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
You, I don't know what else to say.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, I mean, like they came that this guy was
like they they had lunch. I thought this was gonna
be a long drawn out thing. And then they did
the classic like American jury thing where they were like,
all right, it is eleven o'clock. If we deliberate quote
unquote for thirty minutes, we can get the free lunch
before we get out of here. And so they were like, cool,

(08:19):
let's get the catered lunch. Okay, let's hear a homily
and a song. Okay, that's great, Okay, Oh no, the
first four candidates didn't work out, and then bam, this
guy comes in on the fifth and they were like, yep, totally, like.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Very funny, very funny to make it seems.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Like they had this one in the bag, especially since
he was the guy who appointed all the cardinals, which
I guess kind of makes him the dict.

Speaker 5 (08:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, not in not in the not in the genocide
way that we know of, but uh but but you
know in the uh well, of course I'm going to
be vice president. I got you your job, didn't I.
I all right, yeah, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
It's fun, but I mean I know you have.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
A lot more complicated feelings about it.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
Uh well, you know, primarily my my thoughts about it
currently at the moment. Are you know, did you see
the sweet You know, Laura Lumer did the woke Marxist
Pope tweet and this is always liked to the tune
of Pink Pony clubs. So anytime anyone talks about it,
I'm just going woke Marxist Pope. I'm gonna keep bond
dancing like repeatedly, like over and over again. And that's

(09:28):
good enough for me. That's good enough for me, man.

Speaker 3 (09:31):
Yeah, yeah, it's good.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
It's very funny. He's a he's a white Sox fan,
just an abysmal.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
I love I love that. Yeah, anti Cubs action, so
I fucking love that ship. I love that SOX.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
Like they go in like they're like, we found the
pope's brother. He lives in Florida, And you're like, wait, what,
like he just like he the Pope's brother is hey,
like everybody knows like all these stories about people like
knowing the pope's mom, and it's like, you can't know
a pope's mom.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
Get the fuck out.

Speaker 1 (10:08):
He I don't want to, you know. And it's like
it's just so funny. And they like went down to
his brother and his mother was like he would never
be a Cubs fan. Cubs fucking suck ghosts. It's so funny.
It's just so fucking funny.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, good for good for them. Um yeah, I don't know. Uh,
it's fun. I'm glad we get the Uh. I'm glad
we get to have a laugh about it. And I'm
glad that we got an America pope who is.

Speaker 3 (10:41):
Just at odds with the.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
American administration and most of America's politicians because of the Democrats.
But you know whatever, that's funny, funny, we got an
America pope before an English win.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Get fucked.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Adrian surely.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
Elected.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I mean, who's counting?

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Oh yeah he did.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
I was thinking to the other one who almost got
to like to he was the one who didn't take
a new name, right, he.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
Just yeah, he's the he's the only one he's.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
Yeah, but it kind of doesn't count.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
So yeah, I was like, uh, that's what I would do.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
I would just become the first pope Luke. Like, what
do you change your name to?

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Luke?

Speaker 5 (11:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:22):
See, I would be. I would be I would go
urban because I'm a lot of the urban.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
It would either be Luke or Sixtus the sixth. I
would that the last one, six is the fifth. And
they were like, oh, this is this joke's too good.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
We can't let him have it.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, anyway, I don't know what he needed a six
This is did off the top of my head.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
So if they were all.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Evil, just Sylvester, what about being a Sylvester.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Oh that's a good pope?

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Lando the second uh from you know they had one
back in the tenth.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah, that'd because yeah, like I would like that would
be good. Get like a throwback name that's only been
used once or twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Uh oh the other thing uh in medieval news, I
guess before before we start, uh you know, total postmodern
victory over the Middle Ages, as if we hadn't already
done it, folks. Yesterday it was reported by CERN that

(12:21):
the Large Hadron Collider had successfully transmuted lead into gold.
Now this deserves a big asterisk because you can only
do this at the like relativistic physics speeds that happened
in a large Hadron collider. But you know what, they
still did it suck at alchemy or if you rather acheydicated,

(12:44):
thanks for the help, but you know, Isaac Newton completely vindicated.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
Yeah, man, you could do it, dude. It's just you know,
you need a collider, that's all.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
I mean, but like we like again just going in
there and get it.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
There is magic.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
My science is magic thing. It's fucking magic. It is
until like until now that that ship happened in stars.
That's how gold got created, was like like uh, supernova
explosions and it's like no, here you go. Uh we
did it in like a circular tube under Switzerland.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Well, I would say that it's also got kind of
like a suitably magical kind of like curse on it too,
because you can only do it for a couple of
seconds and only in there, so it's sort of like, well,
we've done it, go in there and get it. No,
you can get it.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, yeah, go in there and get it. It's like, well,
I got to go through six clean rooms and this
stuff has to like extaminated, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
And I'll be torn to bits, and you know, we
can only do it for a couple of seconds. So
I think it's like it's suitably it's suitably magical, and
I like that about it.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
You know. It is like, yeah, that's that's just very cursive,
very cursive.

Speaker 3 (13:51):
Very Uh. I'm glad it was.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
I'm glad it was that, you know, because I think
we have to stand against the woo woo bullshit nowadays
people taking it too far. But since nobody really actually
does alchemy anymore.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
It doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Like nobody's like, oh, I'm gonna boil my piss into
whatever and find the reboot.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And it's like, I don't know, man, some of some
of these hippies I see on Instagram do it anyway.
It's a you know, friend of the show, doctor Sara
Olberg Stradle she loves to follow like the worst fucking
people on Instagram, like her algorithm is truly cursed. And
she's constantly sending me videos of like hippies who are
like I put a lime under my bed and it

(14:32):
cures ghosts and like shit like that, And I'm like,
why are you doing this? Don't make me.

Speaker 4 (14:37):
I don't want to see this, Like, oh man, it's
so great if you go out and sun your gooch
for three hours a day and it's like.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
It get your goots right out. But no, I'm not
even joking about the lime solves ghost thing, like it's
it's so real. I that's really real, Like.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Anyway, Uh, total Isaac Newton victory, his theories on the
universal universal gravitation and uh, and his theories on a
boiling piss to make Fosterphorus uh fully vindicated uh in
due time. Also, we wouldn't have the large Hadron Collider

(15:25):
if he hadn't figured out gravity, or we wouldn't you know,
shut out anyone he yeah, he and yeah everyone who
who helped along with that. But yeah, man, I think
that's it. That's a pretty long fucking intro.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, go in, I got I got the Dark Ages,
so I'll be sometimes soon I'll be able to give
a full report on how historically accurate doom the Dark
Ages is, what with its metal, uh magnetic shield that
spins around and you know, look, we.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
So rarely have actual like medieval news that we take
it when we can go, right, we do we do.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Oh okay, here we go, hello and welcome back to

(16:41):
We're Not So Different, a podcast about how sometimes we
just you know, sometimes just get into a groove. And
you got to do a really long intro about how
the new pope's kind of funny with it. He looked,
he there's that one picture of him that looks exactly
like a picture of Emperor Palpatine, Like I know, it's

(17:01):
so weird. Like at like, I was like, there's no
way this is real. And then I have reversed image
search and I was like, oh my god, that is
a real picture of and that's that's awful for him,
that's great, yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
But great for us And that's what Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:16):
That isn't that is important? I mean, what am I
going to do?

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Like I'm not Catholic, I don't have any steak in it.
Might as well laugh anyway, Yeah, folks, we're here today
to talk about a little place known as al Andolous.
And we would do questions, but you know, frankly, the
twenty minute divergence there at the beginning. We'll get the
next time, we promise. So yeah, no, you know, once

(17:42):
again getting behind on questions. But sometimes I got to
talk about the Pope and and alchemy vindicated.

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Chicago Hot Dog's best Style, Chicago White Sox, best baseball
team in Chicago, in Chicago Pope.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
You know, Chicago Deep just pizza good despite what people say,
not so good. So especially when it's done right. Oh
I gotta I got a frozen when it wasn't great.

Speaker 6 (18:10):
Yeah, no, ship it wasn't great. Got to specializes in it.
There are places outside of Chicago that do. There's a
place in Atlanta. I wonder if it's still open. It
was called Nancy's. They had incredible deep dish. Anyway, I've
talked about pizza before.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
You put cheese.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
And sauce and toppings on bread and cook it. It's
not it's not gonna be bad, except for the cracker
bullshit that they do in Saint Louis.

Speaker 3 (18:39):
Fuck that.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Oh wow, I'm not familiar with this one.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
It's like it's like a thin cracker thing. It's just
it's it's like eating like uh, you know, the Nacho's
Flanders style where it's like uh cream cheese and uh
and and wheat thins or whatever the it was. Anyway,
Oh man, all right, it just can't stop with the digressions.

(19:03):
All right, here we go, let's talk about Iberia. Sort
of shed go without saying, but around five point three
million years ago, the Mediterranean basin was a vastly different
place than it is today. Okay, the entire earth was
vastly different at the time, but we're just going to
stay focused on the Mediterranean. Back then, the calm, shallow

(19:26):
sea we all know and love and want to vacation
upon was a hellish wasteland of shallow pools of heavily
salinated water and salt flats, and a deep, mostly dry basin.
This was because the Strait of Gibraltar, the narrow only
fourteen kilometers or nine mile wide gap between northwestern Africa

(19:48):
and southeastern Europe that today allows access to the Mediterranean,
had been pushed up higher by the unstable plate technonics
of the region, forming a land bridge higher than the
water level and severing the connection to the rest of
the Atlantic. Over the next couple of one hundred thousand years,
the Mediterranean mostly dried out levy, leading to a salinity
crisis as the evaporating seawater left behind massive salt deposits

(20:10):
on the former seafloor and eroded the continent walls. At
its most arid, the Mediterranean was a massive dry basin
with only occasional shallow pools that sat some three to
five kilometers or between two to three miles below Atlantic
sea level, with only the most hyper saline areas like
the modern day Dead Sea, retaining much standing water. But

(20:32):
this status quo was short lived geologically speaking, as the
new Gibraltar land Bridge was exceedingly narrow and sea level
rise and the steady lap of waves eroded it. So
it was about five point three million years ago the
Strait of Gibraltar. The Strait of Gibraltar formed and the
floodgates opened to one of the greatest spectacles ever to
occur on the planet, the Zanclean Flood. Suddenly, the weight

(20:55):
of an ocean's worth of water punched through the sea wall,
and torrents of water began flowing into the basin. Now,
you might imagine that this came in like a waterfall,
but that's incorrect, so that it flowed down gradually declining
a gradually declining ramp until it reached the basin floor.
This may seem disappointing, it's you know, the waterfall would
be much better spectacle until I add one final detail.

(21:18):
Once the straight fully was fully opened by erosion, more
than one hundred million cubic meters of water flowed in
per second, traveling forty meters per second and displacing two
hundred and forty cubic miles of rock as it moves.
The most conservative models show that the flood were unleashed

(21:40):
roughly ten severe drops of water into the basin per second.
For reference, a sphere drop is equal to one million
cubic meters of water per second, and the outflow of
all rivers on Earth combined at any given second is
one point two severe drops. Thus that its zenith for
every second that passed, the Mediterranean Basin is being flooded

(22:02):
by at least ten times more water than the combined
outflow of every present day river on Earth. And remember
that's just a conservative estimate. Other models show it could
have been an undated with as much as one hundred
sphere drops of water during the worst of it. Regardless,
for a time, the Zenclean Flood created the longest, most

(22:22):
catastrophic whitewater rafting channel in history, refilling the entire basin
in as little as a single year, though the length.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Of the flood is still hotly debated. Even today, there.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
As still remnants of the Zenclean Flood around, as the
Mediterranean is much salter saltier than other Atlantic waters, and
it permanently cut the islands off from one another and
the mainland, leading to the various speciations we see of
animals and plants on the islands. What does any of
this have to do with the Muslim takeover of the
Iberian Peninsula beginning in a seven to eleven CE. Well,

(22:55):
it does explain the opening of the Strate of Gibraltar,
which was the initial crossing point for most of the
Muslim invasion. But outside of that, nothing, Just.

Speaker 3 (23:03):
A really cool story that I like.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Since I write the intros, I get to do this sometimes.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Anyway, enough of that nonsense. We're here to continue our
ongoing series visiting various parts of the Medieval World with
a short bunch of episodes on All Andoluce. You recall
that we started the year with the series in the
same vein on Constantinople. That mean got distracted because there's
a lot going on in the world. Oh god, it's
just something we actually have to cover. You know, you

(23:30):
guys know the deal. You've been listening. Why are we
doing al Andaluce when we normally focus on Europe and
you've talked a lot about Spain over the course of
the show. Well, mostly because we've never done anything centering
on it. It is incredibly important to the formation of
the modern world, and most importantly, Spain and All Andduluce
are two very different things.

Speaker 3 (23:49):
Oh and even.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
More importantly, to spread the message far and wide. This
isn't an occupation. Don't call it a fucking occupation. After
seven hundred years, it stops being an occupation. It's just
Iberia at that point. Today we will talk about the background,
who who the Umiads were, why the invasion occurred, and
what were the early years of the invasion like and

(24:11):
what was life like after it was conquered. And hey,
if you're looking for Charles Martel and tours and Charlemagne
and all that shit. Well, listen to this and then
come back next time, because that's when we'll get to it.

Speaker 3 (24:23):
Eleanor uh.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Spain and the Iberian Peninsula were famously part of the
Roman Empire for a while. What was the status of
Iberia after the fall of Western Rome in for seventy six?
Who ruled it and what kind of peoples were being
ruled there?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
The Visigoths ruled it. Yay, yays time woo.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I had finally made it all the way from the
fucking step to uh.

Speaker 2 (24:53):
Yeah, I'd like for them this is kind of like
the apogee of what they managed to do and controlling
the Iberia Peninsula. But they're also controlling initially all the
way up to like tour and things like that in France,
so you know they've got they've got like a bunch
of to loose as well. And the physical kind of

(25:17):
come by this because they were Feo Derati of Rome,
so those are kind of like the Romanized barbarians, right.
They had been Central Europeans, shout out to my people,
that's what's up, that's what's sucking up now. And basically

(25:38):
the Iberian Peninsula had been experiencing a lot of issues
even before the quote unquote fall of Western Rome, and
it's mainly it was dealing with invasions from your year
ordinarily types of the Allens, the Vandals, the Swabi people.
I just love to talk about the Allens. It's very funny.
It's like all the Allans got together and so basically

(26:05):
they justify taking over the peninsula as what are some
essentially kind of client states of Western Rome by saying, well,
this is what you have us for. This is like
what you invented us for. So of course we're just
doing it. And Rome is like, no, not like that. Hey,

(26:25):
that's my taxation base. And they're like, yeah, we'll come
over here and get it right, and and they're basically like, oh,
I don't really have a lot of ability to do that.
So i'dan like there were points in time, right like
especially early on in the Formation, when the physicals are
fighting Western Rome, like the Emperor Anthemius sends troops over

(26:48):
to be like knock it off over there, and they
absolutely get stopped the fucking ground at the Battle of Arl,
which is very funny. And so like this begins they
the deal in Spain. So you have these Physigothic people,
but for the most part we're talking about the Hispanic

(27:09):
Romans that are living there, and they are Romans. This
is one of like the big taxation centers for Rome.
They famously have kind of a funny accent. But you know,
we draw from the Spanish Romans all the time. So
for example, Hadrian was a Spanish Roman, right, So the

(27:33):
population is still largely just like the Hispanic Roman people
who are there, but the Visigoths are kind of ruling
very particularly over them, and they do it for a
long fucking time. That's the thing that they're in there
before the Fall of Rome. Like they're in there, I
mean fucking hell, like the you have like the Battle

(27:55):
of Arl and everything in four sixty nine. Nice, nice, nice,
that's the reason I can remember that date so like,
and then basically they are going to stick around for
quite some time. This isn't to say that it was
all smooth sailings. So for example, like they get into
fights with Byzantium or Eastern Rome all the time. Like

(28:16):
Constantinople will be like taxes Texas tonight, Queen taxes No,
and they're like no, get out of here. So like,
you know, there will be times when the Eastern Roman
Empire shows up, but kind of like by the time
you are nearing the end of the sixth century, this
stuff is a done deal. And this is also kind

(28:40):
of the time where a lot of the stuff that
we see, especially in the seventh century, we get really
good records from our good friend Iziodora Saville, who is
like homeboy who likes to do fake etymology for everything.
He's great. We love Iziodora Saville. You know, they have
like your standard Barbarian state pro quote unquote, like we're

(29:01):
they're initially all Aryan and then they have and they
have to like convert well, but they by the time
that they do convert, kind of at the end of
the sixth century, you get up at this point in time,
it's just kind of like this is just yeah, it's
a Visicalthic state, but we're doing things in Latin, you know,

(29:23):
we we are now you know, Catholic. They don't use
the word Catholic, right, they're not. They're not Arians anymore.
And they have driven out Eastern Rome and and basically
take it over, and they kind of celebrate by immediately
getting kind of anti Semitic with it, which is, which
is cool because they're like, oh, yeah, we're gonna we're

(29:45):
gonna like persecute this like a very large Jewish population
that lives here, and there is like fighting back and
forth in that kind of normal early medieval way, so
you know, various nobles will go and at a fight
with their cousin that sort of thing, but by and
large they are hanging out here and ruling a really

(30:07):
contiguous state at the time.

Speaker 1 (30:13):
Yeah yeah, and uh, you know when we say they ruled,
they're like the Visigothic elite was like one to two
percent of the population.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
They like they just didn't you know, they just did.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
They like it that way, right, because essentially they're they're
they're they're working off of a particular legal code called
the Visigothic Code, and it basically cements in to law
that they are the boss of you.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Right.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
So uh so they like it that way, right, Like
they're very interested in promulgating you know, laws and society
that mean that there is this tiny group of people
who are an elite. But honestly, but may by the
time we're in the seventh century, it's like they stop
having the silly names and yeah, they stopped speaking Gothic

(31:11):
whatever book that was, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, you know, so one a famous thing from the
end of the Roman Empire where the Roman manners of
the wealthy Roman citizens, was that something that had that
extended out into Spain where those were those still a
big thing out there were we starting to see uh,

(31:34):
you know, like proto manorialism, proto feudalism or whatever you
want to call it.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
At this point, Oh got it.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Like, I mean, the the estates out in Spain are
quite extensive, and you know, Spain is kind of where
all the olive oil comes from mm in uh for
the western Roman empires. So it's very funny. It's like,
so the M four a come up from Tunis and
they go over to they go over to Spain get
filled with olive oil, and then they go to Rome

(32:00):
and it's like a not so bad triangle trade anyway.
Like so you do have these huge parcels of land
and you still kind of retain the huge parcels of
land thing, but the Visigoths are like, I'll have that one,
thank you, like about yeah, exactly exactly, so you know,

(32:25):
and the part of the reason that they're incredibly successful.
Is they're super good at sort of like maintaining a
lot of things. I mean, they do consider themselves more
or less to be working under the Roman system. And
when they come into power, they're like, we don't really
want to topple what's going on. I mean, I will
take the nicest manners available, thanks very much, But they don't.

(32:50):
You don't want to take over Rome because you want
to destroy it. You want to take over Rome because
you want the money from it. And so that they
they do a good job of kind of instilling some
sort of close to Roman life that that sort of
keeps ticking over. And yeah, so they're they're quite successful

(33:12):
at having a unified, big fucking kingdom. I mean, like
of the Roman successor states, this is the largest, yeah,
for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah yeah, and so yeah, just stick your mind right there.
You know, it's about it's about sevent ten. The Visigoths
rule over Iberia, and you know, things are going good
for them.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
They're not you know, they're not worried nothing's coming. But
now we got to jump.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
We got to jump back in time a little and
go all the way across the Mediterranean, and let's briefly,
take a look at the Levant in six sixty one.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
Uh So, here you go.

Speaker 1 (33:49):
This is the quickest summation of the first fifty years
of Islam I could possibly do. The prophet Muhammad has
formed the religion of Islam, won many victories in its name,
and then died in six point thirty two. Islam is
still unified religion under Abu Bakir and the Rashidan Caliphate,
which formed in the wake of the Prophet's death, though

(34:10):
cracks were beginning to form over political and theological disagreements
regarding Mohammad's teachings and successors. In spite of these divisions,
the early Muslim conquests were incredibly successful, and by six
fifty one they had taken Egypt the entire Levant and
literally wiped us and in Persia off the map, just
fucking obliterated, get out of here, and Zoroastrian focks just

(34:34):
annihilated them, which is said Astrianism loves. However, Ababakir died
that year, and his successor, Uthman and his treatment of
his own klan, the Banu Umaya, created even greater divisions,
and he was assassinated by internal enemies, leaving Ali Mohammed's
nephew as the new caliph, Ali faced a full blown

(34:56):
Fitna or Islamic civil war and was himself a they
needed by rivals in six sixty one, leaving Muawiya, a
member of the Benu Umaya, to form the Umiad Caliphate
upon his accession eleanor how did the Umids take this
feuding bunch and within a century form the seventh largest

(35:21):
land empire in world history. And to be clear everyone,
the Umiads ruled from Iran all the way into the Levant,
down all the way across northern Africa and up into
the Iberian Peninsula and a small bit of southern France
for a little while.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah, well, they do it through rather a lot of pragmatism.
Here's the answer to that. They kind of become the
successors because they are already well connected. They're super well
connected at tradespeople in Mecca when they kind of rise
to power. And one of the way that they end

(36:01):
up doing this is by really keeping shit in the family.
So they're like, okay, look, you know other like previous
unto this, other people would be a little bit like, hey, guys,
what are we all doing? Because wo we're doing Islam right,
and I'm going to ask for your opinion on this,
and the U Moons are like, fuck you, my uncle

(36:21):
gets that, you know, kind of which makes it easier
to keep people loyal and to an extent, stops a
lot of the slap fighting. But I think also they
are incredibly pragmatic and they do really smart things. So
they kind of take over and you know, they're in
this time of like the burgeoning expansion of Islam, and

(36:45):
they take over rather a lot of land from Eastern Rome.
But what they do in an incredibly smart way is
they're like, we are keeping the legal practices, we are
keeping like the administrative practices, and it's just that we're
going to do things most Islamically now. And this creates

(37:06):
a great deal of stability, which means that people aren't
going to fucking fight back that hard, right like, and
and that makes a really really big difference. So it's like, yeah, okay,
like there's there's someone new that I'm paying taxes too,
but fundamentally it's still pretty safe. They have a really

(37:27):
smart administrative sector, so basically like they keep the Eastern
Roman thing, which is like, so you've got like a
political branch you've got a religious branch, a tax branch,
and a military branch. So they maintain a professional army,
which is a really big deal, and so they're they're
able to kind of draw from that, which helps expansionist

(37:49):
policy as well. They make local governors essentially of the
various provinces that they rain, which are called Dwon's and
so they will have the over archie Umid Caliphate, but
there's some one locally that you can go speak to
if you know, things need seeing to. So there is

(38:13):
still kind of like enough localism that people don't necessarily
feel unheard, which is a really big deal. You know,
you pay your taxes, and they put a lot of
money into various things like roads or like they have
actual police forces. They have like a you know, really

(38:34):
good policies in terms of keeping things ticking over and running,
which you know, the locals love to see because you know,
Eastern Rome had been getting a little bit lax with it,
so it's kind of nice to see that. There is
of course the old magic that uh jizia eggs happen
as well, which is that like a you don't have

(38:57):
to convert, so like who really gives a fuck? Who
you're paying tax is to like provided all of the
services are there, and be well, you might go ahead
and convert if it's going to be like that and
you don't have to pay taxes. But I mean to
be fair with this, there are stratifications in Meian society, right,
So it's like you've got Arabs right at the top,

(39:18):
and it's like that's that's number one, like knew me.
It's more particularly like the front their family right at
the top, and so there's like Arabs right underneath that.
You then have converts who are the locals, right, so
you can make rather a lot of money off of that.
Like you know, you can be a very successful merchant.

(39:39):
You can do all kinds of things with the palace,
but you're never going to like run the dwont right
if you're a convert. But for most people it's like dude,
I wasn't running it anyway, so whatever. And the further
and further you get away from their power base, like
in kind of around what's I guess it's Damascus at
the time, then the more and more they're like, oh shit,

(40:01):
we don't actually have enough Arabs over here. So like
you can you can get a good government job, even
though you're not Arab if you're a convert, right, So,
and everybody loves a big government job, you know, like
everybody loves to have their salary paid out of taxes.
That's a really good thing. Then below that you have
the other people of the book, and and you're like

(40:24):
allowed to do what you're gonna do. But like you
can't have a big government job, but you can like trade,
do whatever the fuck it is you do.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
You can be.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
You can go ahead and be a peasant things of
this nature. And then under that there are enslaved people.
And I mean that that's kind of been par for
the course, you know, certainly under both various kinds of Rome,
and it certainly still is true like in Eastern Rome
at the time. So yeah, so that's kind of how

(40:56):
how things kind of sliced out. And because they've got
this really complex government system, it helps with the military endeavors.
So they've got this paid military and they managed to
combine kind of like the best of Arabic tactics, which
is like showing up on camels in the middle of
the night and being like what you know, and it's

(41:16):
me and being like, yeah, you're ready to fight, you know,
but they use kind of Roman tactics. So like one
of the big things that they're into is kind of
like doing spear walls, yeah, things like that. So you know,
they they're doing the big imperial things that are necessary
to run a big fucking empire, which they end up doing, right.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Yeah, So like, is there is there theory of empire
if we can you know, attribute such a thing. It's
if not, they don't. They're not aiming to convert the
entire world. It's more just like we think the world
would be much better off if it were under Muslim
rule than it is now, and then you could pay
us to taxes and worship as you wanted and it

(42:01):
would be fine.

Speaker 3 (42:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Basically they're like Marshal law bra, we need you to
continue existing. It's like we want your tax money, right
because I mean there is zakat that that Muslims pay,
but that's that goes more towards charitable things, and it's
like that's that's not going to do the roads homeie right,
So you know you absolutely need that the non Muslim

(42:26):
people around in order to make this work. And you know,
so fundamentally, yeah, we call it a caliphate because it's
got these specific Islamic characteristics for sure. But it's an empire,
you know, and if you're going to run an empire,
you have to have multiple groups of people. That's what
makes it a fucking empire, right, and not just a kingdom.

Speaker 3 (42:46):
You know.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
So in the four flung regions of this empire, let's say,
you know, in modern day Morocco, how are they like
there can't be much ruling over a place like Morocco
or al Andolous from Syria, So like are they is
there a very independent They just have to keep up

(43:07):
the rules and send their taxes back.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
Yeah, And you know what, but the thing is like
the governors are probably going to be drawn from like
the actual umiads and so so it's like they're going
to send over a cousin or whatever to to to
run the d won. But you know that is still
going to be largely local people underneath them, because the

(43:30):
further you get from Syria, the less likely a bunch
of people are are to to kind of immigrate with it.
But like you definitely you send over your uncle, You
do a little bit of nepotism, like get your nephew
out there. You know that that kind of a thing.
So it kind of does two things. That maintains a
connection to Syria and to the groups that are back

(43:52):
out in the Levant and things like that, and it
also allows for local people to not be too annoyed
that these random foreigners control them. Now.

Speaker 1 (44:03):
Yeah, and that that takes us up to six or
to seven eleven. That seven eleven, ha, like the gas station.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
There's a lot of good dates.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
Yeah, that takes us up to seven eleven. And at
that point, the Umiids had captured all the way to
what we consider now Morocco and to the southern part
of the Strait of Gibraltar. And they looked across, you know,
the ten mile stretch, and they were like, you know,
Africa's cool. You know, Western Asia is cool, but you

(44:37):
know it might be cool southern Europe. How about southern Europe.
I hear it's nicest time of year. And so they
got everybody on a ship and they went across and
they had a little vacation.

Speaker 3 (44:48):
No, I'm just kidding. It was an invasion.

Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's in July seven to eleven, the Umid forces under
Terek even Ziad, when a crushing victory over the Visigoths
under their king Roderick at the Battle of Guadaleta, and
from there the invasion was pretty much unstopped for at

(45:15):
least nine years. Abd al Aziz ibin Musa was named
the first governor of al Andalous in seven point fifteen.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
He took Savill as his capital.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
By seven nineteen, Umid armies had conquered the entire peninsula
up to the region of Asturias on the northern Atlantic coast,
and extended their holdings along the Mediterranean coast past Barcelona,
around the southern Pyrenees to just south of Narbonne in
the Ostan region of present day France. The Islamic conquest

(45:49):
of Iberia, meaning all the Portugal most of Spain outside
of Asturias, was complete within a decade, though they would
be permanently pushed south of the Pyrenees within you.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Know, a few a few decades.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
The Immedian forces of Iberia then invaded Gaul, meaning France.
They did make it all the way to Toulouse before
losing a decisive battle to Odo the Great of Aquitaine,
after nearly securing the city and a stronghold for Islam.
But we'll get more into their adventures with the Franks
next time.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
So eleanor.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
How are the Visigoths so easily taken? I mean, sure,
it's been a while since you know, Aleric the day
is of Alaric, But like these are like, you know,
these are Visigoths, they're barbarians. How did they how are
they so easily defeated? And why did they fold like
a fucking desk chair.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
The answer is it's testament to how good their state
was and how unified it was. Yeah, you can't. You
can't topple like a ragtag bunch of city states very
easily because you have to defeat them all one by one.
Right with the Visigoths, they have a contiguous kingdom that

(47:03):
is running under one rule of law, and all you
have to do is kill enough of them and get
to the head of government and the whole thing just
falls over. And you know, they've been fighting with each other,
you know, they've been fighting kind of varying battles, you know,
like on the frontiers and stuff like that, as one
usually does. But there's still such thing at this point

(47:25):
as an invading force other than you know, the the Uviiots,
because they're the ones that have like a whole empire
behind them, right, you know, And it was harder for
Eastern Rome to do it because when they want to
do it, they have to get on ships from Constantinople,
whereas these guys they just got to jump over the strait, right,

(47:47):
So it's not like, you know, they don't have the
same issues with like landing and issues there. And they
also have naval back up from provinces like you know,
in Tunisia, in Sicily, you know, in all these places
that are really nearby, so they can always go get
more people, Whereas if Constantinople want reinforcements, they got to

(48:11):
go all the way back to like an Asia Minor
on a boat, right, So it's much more difficult. And
so yeah, it's interesting because essentially what happens is they're
victims of their own success. You can topple them because
they are well sensualized and because there isn't really anyone
who's been able to challenge them in any meaningful way

(48:33):
for a couple of hundred years. So as a result,
they then just fall over. And I mean the other
thing that happens is the same thing that kind of
happens everywhere where they go to the nobles and they're like, look,
just FYI, you could keep it. Yeah, Like I'm not
telling you that you have to stop being a strong
and involved noble family. And so they're like, oh word, okay,

(49:00):
well I'm not gonna like send out my sons to
die that right, Like I'm not. I'm not gonna make
them go like face this kind of like well drilled,
actual professional military, which they do not have, you know,
like they're they're doing it the medieval way. They're all like, yeah,
like where's your son's Hey, yeah, everyone to queen like

(49:23):
give yours to a stick and make a broad over there,
and everyone's like, you know, look, they're telling me I
don't have to convert. I just have to pay taxes.
I'm paying taxes anyway, yeah, because the Visigoths have a
strong state, and you know they're paying taxes. So again
it's the same thing where it's like I don't really
care who I'm paying taxes to, provided I get to

(49:45):
keep my land and my sons are alive and whatever.
And you know, the remaining Visigoths they fuck back off
to Astorius. And I just want to do a shout
out here because uh, we refer to the Kingdom of
Ustorius as a rump state. That's right, And I think
that's just a fun term. So yeah, and so you
know that they sit up there to be mad. But

(50:05):
for the most part, most of the noble families, who'd
all been like fighting with each other, fighting with the
king anyway, are like, Okay, well that lad'll take the
king down to pay Yeah whatever, dude, right, they fight
his ass anyway, So like they don't care. They don't care,
you know.

Speaker 1 (50:22):
Yeah, Yeah, Osterius is like the main holdout and they're
able to do that because it's a really difficult it's
it's not an easy region to access up there along
the northern coast. But yeah, they they hold out. It's
you know, it's tenuous. But the thing about it is that,

(50:42):
as Eleanor said, most of the Visigothic leaders and the
powerful landowners just signed conditional agreements with the with the
Umids uh their land. Their lands were independent, autonomous regions
under broader Umian rule, and it was very indirect.

Speaker 3 (50:59):
There was a.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Muslim on top, but other than that, the structure basically
stayed the same as long as the leader didn't foment
rebellion or attack the umids, their lands weren't plundered. Now
there are, of course people who didn't do that. Towns
and cities that resisted were subject to the same conventions
of medieval battles, meaning they were sacked, plundered, sometimes destroyed, uh,

(51:21):
and then they were put under direct umid administration.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
So it's a very.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
Well you can see why people capitulated.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're if your options are
like fight this army that has basically lost like maybe
one battle on since they moved into Europe in like
the decade, Like if they roll into Barcelona, I'm sorry

(51:51):
Bartelona and you're the guy there, like and you're the governor,
They're like, are you gonna roll out and fight these
guys or are you gonna be like, well, they said,
I could sign a contract and they're not going to
kill my family, or they're not going to sack the
town and we just have to pay a tax to
stay created. Like that's unless you are like, uh, offended.

Speaker 3 (52:14):
On a moral level about this.

Speaker 1 (52:16):
It is, and it's a pretty easy choice to make,
especially like because they do the because the Visigothsts clearly
didn't have a standing army that they could get together
that could.

Speaker 5 (52:33):
Could defeat the Yeah, yeah, like I mean, because that's
the whole thing about like Barbarians is they're just kind
of like doing it, you know, and they'll they'll take
over the Roman.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Structure, but they can't afford yeah, at army and it's
ken So like there you go, like that's that's it, baby,
you know, that's dialectics.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Baby.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah, it's not that.

Speaker 3 (53:00):
Not dialectics, that's just making the decision.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
But yeah, and the thing about it is, you know,
like we talk about Christian and Jewish toleration here and
people might kind of roll their eyes or something like that,
and I kind of get the inclination because I mean,
you know, really.

Speaker 3 (53:20):
But.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Our only direct source for this time period is something
called the Chronicle of seven fifty four and it's written
by Christians and it's very pro Christian, but even they
are like, yeah, we still got to practice. We had
to pay money. Like so the stuff that we're talking
about here is written by Christians from a pro Christian perspective,
but even they're like, yeah, I mean they still let
us practice. Like even in the even in the towns

(53:45):
that they had to sack, they didn't stop those people
from being Christian or Jewish, you know.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Oh yeah. Like one of my favorite sources from this
period is called the Barterers of Cordoba, and there is
this great story in it where Saint Eulogia she's like
a Muslim and she wants to convert and her parents
are like a fuck, no, no, get out of here, like,
get out of here with that. You're not converting to shit, girl,

(54:10):
and and like the Martyrs of Cordova is like, oh God,
and it wasn't she's so oppressed or whatever, and I
can't believe they would let her convert. And then she's like, well,
I'm going to a party, and her parents are like, okay,
go have fun, have funny, have fun at your party.
And then she like goes to the cathedral and studies

(54:31):
with the Christians there and then like converts right and
is lying to her parents about where she gets. So,
you know, even in a story which is about like
oppressive you know, Muslim parents or whatever, you can still
like walk out the door because they're like, yeah, go
have fun at your party, babe, and then like walk
over to the fucking cathedral, right, Like it's not it's
not exactly like a difficult thing. And she's like, and

(54:54):
she's studying under a bunch of duns. And then eventually
like she's like, I'm staying with the nuns, and her
prayers are like you get back here right now, young lady,
and she's like no, I won and then and then
like and then like basically she gets threatened with death.
And I think that though, what that kind of like
comes down to is it's a little bit more of
like a disobedient child of nobility, yeah thing, and they're like, girl,

(55:16):
could you just fucking knock it off? And she's like no,
and then gets kid. It's like and that's the story,
and like from the most hostile possible fucking witness, we
get a picture of Gordoba as a pretty integrated place
where you can just walk around and talk to nuns
all you want, even when you are a daughter of

(55:39):
the nobility.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's you know, there was an inter religious conflict, Uh, definitely,
because there always is. It doesn't oh God yet what
kind of religion they are, even if they're not really competing,
you know, they still technically are. And uh, there was
definitely that was definitely, you know, there were definitely issues,

(56:04):
but the like the real like this is a civilizational
battle between Christianity and Islam. Idea had not been fostered yet,
like at that point to Western European Christians before they
invaded it that if they knew about it, that was
like they're dealing with Constantinople.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
I don't give a shit about that.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Like once I got to do with it, and like
what exactly.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
Do with me and Achen or whatever?

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Yeah, and like when you're in Auchen, you're like hah,
like finally someone's taking those visigoths down a bag, you know,
like later where you're like, yeah, fuck you. You know,
so there's you know, it's not like anyone in Ireland
was like oh no, not not you know.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
And it's not like and it's not like the Franks
or Charles Martel or Charlemagne invaded Iberia to free it
from Muslim rules. They just wanted to push them back
as the Pyrenees. And they did that for the most
party that they occasionally lost in our bone again, but
you know, they it wasn't like, you know, we have

(57:09):
to run all these Muslim dogs out. It was like
get out, just go south of the Pyrenees. I don't care,
go go go stop it do not come north of
the Pyrenees. And for a long time, those you know,
they were pretty fine with it. And you know, we'll
obviously get to where like the reconquista starts. But I mean,
like you eleanor you think you can like kind of

(57:32):
date the idea of the reconquista to this era in
like osterious like as.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
A kind of I mean like they're like thing maybe, Yeah,
I mean I have a difficulty with the concepts of
the reconkista because like, yeah, Franco came up with it,
and I don't fucking like him, you know, like it's
a but what yeah, Like I mean like the idea
like no one, no one in the Middle Ages is
like it's a reconquista, Like this isn't this isn't a m.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
But didn't didn't the uh Isabella and uh whatever his
name is. Didn't they petition the pope to like do
a crusade type thing.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Yeah, but yes, but they call it a crusade. They
don't call it.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
Okay, I see, Okay, I think.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
And so that's I think important because a reconquest sets
up this thing of like oh yeah, like the ongoing
battle of like you know, whatever, and Franco is the
one who comes up and is like were quista all
the time, whereas the like do they call it? Do
they call it a crusade for Nana and Isabella? Yes,
they absolutely do. But like like are the Visigoths sitting

(58:43):
up in Astorias being like I'm gonna take back over
my land. Absolutely, but they're not like I'm doing it
for Christendom, girl, this is about Christen And they're like,
I want my leg belogus to me, that ship's mine,
you stuff back, yeah, one hundred percent, Like it's not.
It has nothing to do with like oh like I

(59:05):
oh christ would want this, Like that's not what they're saying.
What they're saying is I want I want my shit.
And you know, as we're gonna see going forward, dude,
like they like lands are changing hands, kingdoms go back
and forth, willy nilly, people are in and out of
each other's pockets.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
You know.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Elsied is like now I'll work for the Muslims. Now
I'm over here, you know, and they're they it's like
they you could be a Christian ruler with the you know,
Islamic vassals and vice versa. Right, Like it's just a
fucking mess down there actually, And so it is true
that for non of Isabella are like I want to
definitively christianize the Iberian Peninsula. But that's why they're modern.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Right, that's seven over.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Yeah, and like and and that's why, like my argument
you know about like where does you know with the
constant where does the Middle Ages and the early Modern
period begin? My argument on the Iberian Peninsula is always
for Isabella, yeah, because like yeah, because it's like medieval
people were like, I don't know, man, there's just a

(01:00:14):
lot a bunch of different people here. It's kind of wild, right,
for Nana Isabella are like no, right, it's like ethno
stake time. And it's like you can't like it. That's
so modern, right, Like that idea that you could that
you could have such a thing, Yeah, and that there's
a way of there's a way of kind of adjudicating that.
So you know, my my argument is always like that's modern.

Speaker 1 (01:00:33):
Yeah, yeah, because even in the Crusades, they well how
am I trying to say this? They did in some
cases create f no states over there with the Crusader states,
but they were confined to that area and they did

(01:01:00):
you know they they made deals in treaties with Muslim
powers in the region and stuff like that, And it
wasn't like they weren't trying to like cleanse Muslims out
of like Syria so much as they were like the
Holy Land is ours because Jerusalem is ours, which is
a terrible like that's a terrible idea and like it's
the basis of colonialism and nationalism and so many other

(01:01:24):
problems in the world.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
But like it's not setting up an ethno state yet.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
And you know, at that point, the thing of like
a European like Christendom is like.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
A very.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Pretty new idea, Like it wouldn't have come up, oh
yeah until well after Charlemagne, probably not until the Altonians
and the Holy Roman Empire, and even then it would
still be kind of iffy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, like for the most part,
Hispania is like a Christian at this point because like
they had done bid because Rome was right, and and
they're kind of like, yeah, well, we're one of the
Roman successor states doing this because of a concept of romanness,
not because of an idea of European ness, and like
not necessarily as a part of a concept of Christianity either,

(01:02:12):
they're just kind of like, yeah, well where we're Roman,
so like this is this is what Romans do, This
is what makes one Roman. I mean, like my god,
it's it's not like Scandinavia is fucking Christianized yet at
this point in Jesus, like, I mean the Czechs are
about to get Christianized.

Speaker 1 (01:02:28):
Is England even fully Christianized at this point it's still.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Like it's still it's still pretty iffy, like in varying places.
So it's like, you know, this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Is right after Bead wrote and he was still complaining
about all the Pagans in Northumbria and everywhere, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Like yeah, yeah, I mean like fucking Saint Wencheslaus and
his grandma are doing their thing over in the Czech
Republic and like the eight hundred. So it's like, you know,
the Europe is like, as a Christian place is not
a fucking done deal by any starts of the imagination.
So it's like, well, I guess what what we're doing
is we're kind of like establishing what the frontier of

(01:03:06):
Christendom would be in theory.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Yeah yeah, I mean they didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
Yeah, Europe is like a like continental like as like
the concept of the entire continent of Europe being united
to some degree is like at this point not affable.
Like even when they do the first Crusade, that's still
going to be exclusively from Western and a tiny sliver

(01:03:32):
of central Europe with uh, with the German with some
of the German lands, like the rest of it, like
Eastern Europe is not going to be like involved in that,
you know, and a lot of Southern Europe isn't either,
And so it's like, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
You like go to someone in Denmark and tell them
that they're the same as someone in Sevilla, Like do it,
I dare.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
They?

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
There's no, there's not that homogeneity there. But this is
part of I think what we're trying to make clear
is while the homogeneity was not there yet, this is
part of the process that begins uh cohesing and forming
into that. And you know, that's that's all underlouse, that's
what it's going to be. And and as we go along,

(01:04:18):
you'll see it's so fucking important to the future, like
just insanely important to the future of the world that
like this thing was here and like the way that
this allowed everything to form because the like first inklings
of crusades, long before Isabella and Ferdinand were into parts

(01:04:38):
of all andoluce to like hey, you get him out
of there, and that's what they base uh you know,
the whole first Crusade on. So yeah, it's uh part,
it's uh, it's something.

Speaker 3 (01:04:49):
It's a it's a.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
Lot of it's interesting and it definitely flies in the
face of what you normally think of as an invasion,
because while there were battles and they did fight, there
was also a lot of like, all right, you signed
the agreement, so you guys get back to pick and
olives and you landowner get back to drinking refreshing beverages
on your porch while your slaves or serfs.

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):
Or whatever past.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Pick pick the stuff. And like, yeah, that's what they did.
And so it's a it's very it's a very interesting thing.
And I'm I always just I love Alanderlous because like
it's just so it's this thing that people talk about
as like this horror show of like Islamic violence, and
then you read about and it's like, hey, we showed up,
We took the land because it was there to conquer,

(01:05:37):
just like anyone else in in Europe or the Old
World or probably the New World would have at the time,
you know, and yeah, and we did it, and we
just let everybody continue worshiping as long as they didn't
try to established in the back. When we walk down
the road, you know, it's like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
Well, they brought you a date palm.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Yeah, they brought you a date palm. You got the
camel you see.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
Camels, I mean they've probably seen camels.

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
The introduced pineapples, they introduced dates, like they introduced a yeah,
like I think, really, wait, no, it can't be pineapples.
I was about to say no, but they definitely introduced
date palms. They definitely. They definitely introduced like all of
these like cool fruits and things, and everyone is like, hell, yeah,
I fucking love.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Dats, I love dates, I love a fig Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
Yeah, I can't be pineapples. Those are New World, aren't they.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:26):
And if it wasn't sweet potatoes, there's really nothing else
from the New World over and even that that was
just Indonesia or Polynesia rather so yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:06:35):
Could smash a pineapple now down.

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Oh I love pineapples.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Brain yeah, I mean it's just so good, like and
you know pineapples, Like a millions of years ago, Pineapple
was thinking like, ah, I finally tricked these fuckers. I
got all these spines on the outside. We were like, hey,
that's cool man. Did you know we can just reach
around the tip of it and the pineapples like no, no, no, no,
I'm just cool looking thing. And one day Swingers will

(01:07:03):
use me as a symbol of something that I'm still
not clear about.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Do you know there were really big pineapples as symbols
in kind of like the Georgian period here, So like
when Wren was redesigning all the churches that got are
down by the Great Fire of London, and he redesigned
Saint Paul's, he wanted to put pineapples on top of
it Swinger Cathedral. But then they were like, you can't

(01:07:27):
put a pineapple on top of the cathedral. And he's
like okay, and so there's like he's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Fine, I'll make it the I'll make it the glory
of God.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
And he puts it up there and.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
It's like like a it kind of looks like a
sun going up, but then the closer you look at it,
it's just like shape like a pineapple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
And the Bishop's like, I think that there are still
some pineapples on it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:46):
But that's amazing. Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting. And
next time when we come back, we'll talk about the
Battle of Tours and Charles Martel and you know why
it's kind of overblown and what happened after that, because
because the story kind of stops right there for a

(01:08:08):
lot a lot of time, and it's like Charles Martel, Charlemagne,
skip forward a bunch of years, the end of the
recon key or you know, the Spanish retaking the peninsula
for Christianity or whatever you want to call it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
Yeah, completely, Yeah, it'll be fun. We'll get into it. Yeah,
it's very because the lemon tree was haunted vibes, so you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Know pretty much.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Yeah, we didn't like it because it was haunted. Now
now let's all enjoy a nice glass of turnip juice. Yeah, folks,
thank y'all so much for listening.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
We hope you enjoyed it. We hope you are as.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Cautiously pleased with the Pope as we are, at least
in terms of how funny it's going to be.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
But you know, off in the comment, it's about your
favorite Chicago regional dish is an Italian beef? It is
it deep dish?

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Should the Pope appear on the next season of The
Bear Who's to say, yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
I mean it does he get a box at Bulls games?

Speaker 3 (01:09:13):
Now?

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Who knows?

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
Who knows?

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
God? I would hope he wouldn't want to go watch
Bulls games.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
They'd be like, like if I was the Pope, they'd
be like, Sir, you have all these responsibilities. Shut up,
I have to watch the the Atlanta Hawks lose by
fifteen Charlotte team, shut up. I'm good stuff, Like why
do you torture yourself? Like That's how I tricked them
to say I was Catholic because I just torture myself
by watching Atlanta sports.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
But it's what God wants. It could be worse. It
could be from Seattle and just sitting around hoping that
like it's coming They Thunder.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
Just coming back. I mean, the Thunder are not leaving,
but the Sonics will come back.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
I curse them. I cursed them from my boy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
I don't want them to win.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
I don't want so I'm I am going to cancel
my like NBA package if they win the next fucking ri.
I hate them so much, like I can't, like I
begin shouting blairs like I'm not having fun. I can't
look at them, can't I can't be around in the
area when they're there.

Speaker 1 (01:10:16):
But anyway, I understand, Uh yeah, our only hope for
a good finals at this point is uh Nick's t Wolves.
UH Pacers might be fun too, but if they just
it's gonna.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
Be a four to oh. I just don't think.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
They have the you know, do you think they have
the juice?

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I just don't think they have the depth for it.
They're a really good team, and I love.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Jokic, h and everybody love Jokic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
They're they're they're they're really fun to watch, but like
they go like six seven deep right now. And I
mean one of those is Westbrook and he hustles all
the time, but you know, he's not as good as
he once was, and you know, so I just don't
think they have the depth.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
But do you know what, there's a pope that has
opinions on this. Now, there's a fucking pope who has
opinions on this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
Now, Yeah, there's a pope on this. He has uh,
he has opinions on what the Bulls should do and
why they should get rid of Josh Giddy and he
kicked out of the league for being a fucking freak.

Speaker 3 (01:11:15):
Like a like a not like a.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
Did you do? You know what I'm gonna do? Sorry
quick NBA chat before we go. I think that next
year I'm going to attempt to draft an all Jalen
NBA fantasy team.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
Yeah, I'm gonna call him Van Jalen. They're actually pretty
good on paper. I've done, I've crunched the numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:11:35):
Luke a Man a Plan a Canal, jaylen Ama. Oh yeah,
the NBA is great. NBA playoffs are fantastic. You should
check him out if you have it. Uh, also you
should check out I didn't even get to talk about it.
The series finale of and Or was yesterday fucking phenomenal.
We will be covering it on the bonus episodes at

(01:11:58):
some point. So yeah, that's a good reason to sign
up for the Patreon Anyway, if you're still listening to
this deep in, uh hope you thanks VA chat and
then TV chat eleanor what other chat have you got
going on?

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
It is not this I don't fucking know anymore. Bro, yeah,
I don't know, Like I mean, one of those points
where I'm doing a bunch of stuff but none of
it's out yet, so watch this space otherwise, uh, you know,
go back and read things on the blog Going hyphenmdieval
dot com. Buy my book launch in future sex h Yeah,
I don't know. If you want to hear me be

(01:12:32):
all business, you can check out Gone Medieval. But you
know it's fine. I have to be serious over there,
so you know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:38):
I have to talk like this at all times. Well,
as you know in the Middle Ages, we don't quite yet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Yeah, it's it's oh, it's much real complicated than that. Yeah,
that's that's very interesting that you would say that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
Like, yeah, it's like a it's like a PBS like
like you know, history debate thing that.

Speaker 3 (01:12:57):
Oh well, well I understand your position on the matter.
I do not.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Yeah, yeah, basically no, I'm just kidding. It's a good show.
Go listen to it. If you haven't, don't let eleanor
sell herself short. Yeah, and you guys know where you
find me. Luke is amazing on the various media's social
and you can find me yapping about Star Wars. If
you want to hear more about that from years ago.
You can find me at People's History of the Republic.

(01:13:23):
You can find that where we're listening to this, So yeah,
thank you all very much for listening. Enjoy your new Pope,
and we'll see you next time. Bye.