November 6, 2025 • 64 mins
folks, it's time to talk about music. friend of the show, Dr Eleanor Chan, recently released a new book entitled Duet: An Artful History of Music. so we had her on the show to talk about the universal appeal of music, cave music, Hildegard of Bingen, bagpipes, and much more. enjoy and check out Dr. Chan's work at https://eleanorchan.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, like the important thing about where Ellie is is
Ellie's down in Lewis, and Lewis has kind of like
the most banging bonfire night celebrations in the UK. I
mean that literally and figuratively.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh fuck, I forgot it's the fifth of November.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Oh you're not supposed to forget, Luke, I remember?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Not only did I not only did? I? Uh man,
I'm I'm terrible at the things I'm never supposed to forget. Occasionally,
I occasionally forget about nine to eleven. I occasionally forget
about you know, I forget about the the Gunpowder plot,
which I.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Should never be forgot.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
No, I'm not even wearing a poppy like I don't.
I'm so sorry. I hate the troops or whatever.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, that's right, that's right, But.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I hate the World War One troops.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Damn you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
From history in a stupid war that.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's my number one group. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, there's no way, there's no way you'd forget onon
finite down here. They literally wake us up every fifth
of November six am volley of fireworks. No, sometimes on
the sixth as well at dawn.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh my dear god.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It's not like it's not what you're doing to us.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's just, oh, I'm glad that I am not okay,
So I really want to go one day, but it's
like a whole thing. It's also almost like impossible to
get in or out. You've got to like set up
camp a few days earlier if you want to go.
But it's like, you know, but also I'm not living
there and like owning pets and things of this nature,
(01:48):
so like to me, this is like good frivolous fun,
but I like don't own a dog and live there.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So you know, anyway, the trickers you put on, all
the lights, you put on Taylor Swift, close the curtains
like full volume Swift and like.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Just like they did during the Blitz.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
That's right, that's right, exactly, exactly exactly, that's what you
know we'd have.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
World War two is the only good war, Like it's the.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Only yeah, I know, it really is like.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Other than like this, other than like, you know, a
civil war like very the American Civil War is one
of the rare ones where no, there was actually one
good side and one bad side and it's not and
it wasn't like, well there's a good side, but they're
being funded by seven PROCs, and you was like, okay, fine,
(02:43):
Like Old War two is the only good one, Like
it's it really, you know, it's the only one where
we all said, no, there's a clear thing here, there's
a clear problem. We go we have to go and
do this. And then we did it, and then we
were like, yeah, let's not learn anything from that except
all the wrong lessons.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I kind of feel like it just hasn't finished, like were.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Still, yeah, that's the World War.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think. I think it's more like I think it's
sort of the same with the American Civil War, because
like the American Civil War, the North one they won,
slavery was abolished. It was and and to say that
it wasn't as bad, and I really do think detracts
from what people did and the conscious effort of you know,
(03:33):
the the enslaved people and and and the Union Army
and their allies. Uh. But the problem is that we
just let all of the southern UH generals and and
and bureaucrats in through the back door. Uh. None of
them had to pay for their crimes, you know, in
(03:54):
any real or meaningful way, and they came in and their.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Paper clip I would argue yeah, there exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Their ideology just came just came in through the back
door and filtered in that way. And I mean, and
and I do think that lost cause aspect mingled with
the lost cause aspect that was there for a lot
of uh unreconstructed Nazis after World War Two, and a
lot of them got invited in here. You know, we
(04:25):
kept working with them in Gladio and ship like that.
So it was like, you know, I think I think
it did end. I just think like, unfortunately the aftermath
of it, since we haven't ever actually uh uh fully
equalized revolutionary revolutionized society, the ruling class just did the
same thing and incorporated in negative externality or something. I
(04:48):
don't alli.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Welcome to the Marxism podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It all goes it all goes back, like I don't know,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It's a similar thing right where like guy Fox stuff
because on the one hand, you know, I am sort
of like, hell yeah, brother, blow up parliament, but not
for the reasons he wanted to. I'm like, it's like
our civil war. And I always say that the trouble
with the UK is we really wasted our civil war.
(05:19):
We wasted it on puritanism and like that's how you know,
so that's why you end up with still having a
monarchy because people are like, actually, this is sort of
better than experiences.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, was a bit boring.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, we just haven't done we haven't done anything useful
since because of it. So it's like we don't even
have We've got none of it.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Real English democracy's never been tried before.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Actually, let's we should probably talk about this excellent book.
We should probably talk about this excellent book. And let
Ellie go because she's like, things are I'm so serious,
things are gonna start blowing up.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
The entire plot of v for Vendetta is is occurring
right outside her winning.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It's actuallyus you joke, but like I'm just like embraced
for it, like.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It is literally gonna start happening. But I don't know,
maybe the American listeners will like that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Let's go, all right, let's do this. Hello and welcome
(06:51):
back to We're Not So Different, a podcast about how
I'm always forgetting to remember the things that's I'm told
to remember. And uh yeah, folks, today we've got an interview,
so don't have any Patreon questions. Normally we do answer
questions from our patron's here if you want to do
(07:11):
that or you want to hear our bonus episodes. There
are literally almost one hundred of them available, plus all
of these episodes ad free. You got check it out
patreon dot com. So I w nsdpod five dollars a
month and uh yeah, good stuff. Check it out anyway,
I'm onto the show. So today we're talking about music,
(07:32):
and now music is not my strong suit. It's like
drawing and painting and a lot of other forms of
artistic expression. It befuddles me in my brain. I can't
see how the notes on the sheet connect to the
notes on the instrument, or how to stop my ADHD
long enough to allow me to keep time without wondering
often thinking of other things. This is a serious problem.
(07:53):
When I when the band, when the game rock band
was popular, and they were like, oh, you should do drums,
and I'm like, cool, I can't do anything on my
foot because I cannot keep time with it. I will
think of other things and stop keeping time. And they
were and I was like, you have to let me
play the guitar or the bass. I cannot do the
hands and the feet at the say it doesn't work.
(08:13):
I don't. I can't help it. What's more, I have
a terrible voice, even though I do enjoy singing a
little too loud. Now I'm not just doing my usual
self effacing stuff. I do have a point to all this,
and it's very simple. Despite being awful at creating, creating music,
playing music, or even dancing to music, I love it
very much in it moves moves me deeply, and to
(08:34):
be honest, I'd say that describes a great mini humans
throughout history, maybe even a vast majority. There's something so
moving and profound to it that it transcends time, space
and ability. It moves all of us, perhaps not in
the exact same ways, but it does move us nonetheless,
from virtuoso to those of us who can't tear it.
Carry a tune in a bucket, As my dad would say,
(08:55):
you need no more proof than to look at our guests.
Doctor Eleanor Chan's new book Duet and Artful History of Music.
In the first chapter, she anecdotally mentions a place called
the Caverns in Grundy County, Tennessee a couple of times
as a place where people gather to listen to music
in caves. Well, lo and behold. I'm one of those
(09:16):
people who has gone there to listen to music in
the caves, and it is super cool. I have a
very distinct memories of visiting. God, why is windows stop
popping up shit? While I'm trying to read windows zero?
Why am I getting pop ups? I'm not even on
an actual but wind as my anecdote, ruined by technology, Victory,
(09:38):
but Lerry and Jihad forever. Anyway, I have very distinct
memories of visiting the caves on the way to my
various kin who lived in Tennessee, and taking it to
her that allowed us to hear music in the cave.
The way it bends and warps, is it pings and
karums off cave walls or slowly follows their undulating paths
is an extremely trippy and amazing experience and memory I
(10:00):
always cherish. Now, I don't know if doctor Chan has
been to Grundy County or not, but I am willing
to bet we have experienced many of the same emotions
listening to music in caves, despite me being a layman
and she being an accomplished scholar on the subject. And
I think that's neat and probably indicative of something deeply
connective about being human blah blah blah, the enduring power
(10:22):
of the human spirit blah. But enough of my rambling, folks.
Today we are talking to doctor Eleanor Chan, whose new
book Duet is a broad view of the history of music,
focusing on all of the visual information that goes into
musical composition, arrangement, and performance, and it comes with both
helpful artistic depictions of some of the topics presented and
(10:44):
a fun track list at the end too. In addition
to being an author, doctor Chan is a historian of
Renaissance art, music, and visual culture, and is the author
of two previous books and has held a number of
prestigious fellowships. Doctor Chan, thank you very much for joining us.
How the hell are you?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's a delight. I'm kind of scared. I'm gonna get
blown up.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
To be honest, you meant by me, and I'm like,
how would I know about me? Like, like, oh, I
called you out for never having gone to fucking Grundy County.
I'm sorry, you rank Charlotte. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It's I can't imagine why somebody who's not from the area,
wouldn't go there, but it is lovely. Cavers of Tennessee
are very fun. Uh. There's a reason evil man Neil
Gaiman uh uh ended American gods at near Chattanooga where
(11:49):
all those caves are. Anyway, Eleanor, I'm sorry, Ellie. Uh
and to doctor Eleanor.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Since we're doing to Eleanor's and I've I've found that
or Chan is an Ellie. We're gonna go with Ellie.
Is that is that helpful?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Would you like a fun fact about Yeah, what's the
collective noun for a group of elements? What is it?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Really? I didn't know we even had Hell yeah, yeah,
all right, listen, because we've.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Got we've got two of the of the ninety people
still living in the world with the name Eleanor.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Here today, you know over here it's way more. It's
like when I was growing up in the States. You
got to understand it's a problem. It was like when
I was growing up in the States, people were like
really like it was. It was considered like outrageous. And
I am constantly like establishing Eleanor quorums. I got my
(12:50):
Eleanor penny. I've got you know, who's a bad bitch,
we can all agree. Uh, you know, I've got my
other mate, Eleanor, who works for the Museums Journal. Also
we're showing up at like a museum e events together
and confusing people. It's like the things of this nature,
so like you often try to like get nicknames out
of people. So we'll go with Ellie. But Allie, I
(13:14):
am so glad that you let me drag you on
to this podcast because I freaking loved this book. I
devoured this book in like two days, and I just
thought that it's so great because you get so much
really complex information into it, and you go through so
much time. It's like a masterclass in getting information in
but it's really really fun, Like it feels like a
(13:37):
pub conversation, which I want to point out for me,
this is the highest possible praise for a work of writing,
because I think that I don't know if you like me,
spend a lot of time reading academic work, which I
know you do a lot of the time. You get
so bogged down in technical writing, which is important and
(13:58):
there's a reason that we have it. But I don't
want to read it for fun. I read it from
my job. But Duet really doesn't do that. I guess
the best place to start with talking about this is
right at the beginning and music and caves, because you
start off so well with this anecdote about a catch
(14:20):
and a cave in what is now southern France and
maybe can you tell us a little bit about about that?
And so I was.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Quite lucky when I was eleven. My parents were like, right,
we're gonna give you a really really big, like historical education.
We're gonna go to a cave. We're gonna go and
see some cave art. I'm like, my god, like I
don't even know if it's still open, but like that
was such a such an education. I think that's probably
what made me an art historian. The experience of like
going down into that space and like hearing how this
(14:51):
the tour guy's voice was just kind of it was
like in my ears. It was like in the years
before podcasts. It was like literally having.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Like your friend telling you it does act and.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Cool shit like you're sitting in a pub.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Basically it really doesn't sound the same. It's it's there's
something about the way the walls are and like how
like area it is with you know, with the paths
and everything. It sounds different in your head than it normal,
than than a normal person talking does or singing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah. Yeah, But so like I thought, right, if I'm
going to start this story anywhere, I should start it
in this place which is so important to me. And
you know, probably probably it must have some kind of
like special acoustic thing. And I thought it was kind
of anecdotal, just kind of like the personal experience of
what it was like being in a cave, as you say, Luke,
(15:44):
But what I discovered was actually the archaeologists currently think
that all of the cave paintings were painted in like
particularly resonant areas. And so there's an incredible example, as
we're saying, the conch shall from the Marsillus Cave from
the South France, which is literally painted with the same
dotted patterns as the bison motif where it's supposed to
(16:08):
be played. They think, and it's got So they've recreated
this shell thing and discovered that actually has like an
incredible incredible resonance, and you don't get the same like
sound experience anywhere else in the cave, like not outside
the cave. It's it's just like it's all so connected.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I've had that so incredibly cool because you know, clearly
you know, and like obviously we're joking about it, but
there is this this very uniquely human desire to a
make music and b show other people how to do it,
I suppose, because I think that there there's something to this,
(16:50):
you know, as you point out, obviously I've read your book,
internalized it and now making it a facet of my personality,
right as though I know these things, but you know,
you know, obviously I think to me that these these
things kind of indicate this real desire to keep this
particular tradition going. I'll explain to other people how to
do it. And I think that that's just such like
a deeply human thing, right, the desire to propagate a
(17:15):
social ideal around there.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Sure, and there's actually that links to the other cave
that I ended up looking at, where they found these
bone flutes dating back thirty thousand years. But then they
discovered that it had been like basically used as a
model for all these much newer flutes, so that you know,
they're only like fifteen thousand years old or five thousand
years old. So they basically they think this cave was
(17:40):
kind of like a museum of like flutemaking. There's literally,
like you know, this desire to like show people how
to do it and be like, look, look, this is
part of our culture. This is so important to us.
This is what we do.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So getting it said to flutemaker school at this one cave. Yes,
your group doesn't have a good flutemaker. You know, everybody
has to do it. You have to have one, right.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, everyone has to go get yourself a griffin.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I think, like I've seen programs before where people kind
of like do recreations of prehistoric music, especially like at
the stone tablets that you kind of roll rocks on
and things like that, and and you know, you look
at them and you're and you kind of have these
like silly sort of flintstone ideas in your head, but
it genuinely makes gorgeous music where you're like, oh, okay,
(18:27):
well that's me shown right. Like you know, I'm like,
I'm so used to this kind of a you know,
obviously very modern world. You know, like uh, like I
was shout out, I'm about to sound so cool. I
was a bass clarinetist, so like you don't et y'all,
don't even know eny, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right,
(18:47):
and like and so it's like it's this thoroughly thoroughly
modern instrument, right, even if you might like associate it
with kind of like old timiness or like classical music,
like it's just not very old at all. And then
you go look at what it is that people are
doing and how it's a real value for them. Like
(19:08):
if by the time you have like an entire group
of people who are collecting flutes and making flutes and
being like come here, we need to figure this out,
it's very clear that this core cultural value.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Right, No, completely, I mean like also it's that's their
way of like communicating it because they don't write music down,
like they don't have notations. It's like way more up
your street book. Like literally just this idea that actually
you can like I suppose communicate like the shape of
like the and the pitch that like a flute should
(19:42):
be able to create. It's like the scale in diagram.
It's literally like that, and like if you just follow
the measurements and the diameter, you can like recreate it,
like you don't need like notes written down.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, okay, but can we talk a little bit about
oh it's written down right. Okay, because for you all
those who have not read the book yet, which go
do that, but anyway and then come back.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
The way. Fine, it'll be fine commentary on the book.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But the way Elliet approaches the subject
is kind of by subject matter. So you know, we
have an instrument section and we've got, you know, a
section about a notation. And for me, I'm really interested
in musical notation because I'm a nerd who did choir
and played the bass clarinet and you know, like I
(20:35):
used to do. You know, I used to do musical
theater when I was really fucking cool. But you don't
need to worry about how cool I was, all right,
and so like I can read music, you know, and
it's one of those things, you know, like my bass
cleft not so great. I'm more of a treble cleft girl.
It's fine, it'll be fine. But you know, this is
kind of like one thing that you know, my hippie
(20:57):
parents really kind of had us all do. We were
like sat down and it was like, yeah, that's cute.
You will do band until at least year eight, and
then after year eight you can choose to stop if
you wish, but you have to do something because it's
like important to be able to read music. But you
were talking about in the book how there's kind of
(21:17):
we've lost an emphasis on learning to read music. And
I feel like this is just such a sad thing
because you go through this like gorgeous history of talking
about how even systems of notation begin. So I guess
now that I've blurted all of that out, can we
kind of begin at the beginning to talk a little
bit about notation systems? Because I thought this chapter was
(21:38):
just excellent. I just loved it.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
So yeah, So basically, we start to get notation systems
across the world in the kind of form that we
might begin to recognize them. And you do get them
a little bit earlier, so like in ancient Greece, but
I'm going to go straight into kind of the ninth century,
so that's you start to get these kind of them nimes.
(22:01):
So they follow like the flow of like a melody,
but you can't actually divide them up into like rhythmic
information that you have to make all of that up.
And one of the absolute favorite parts of this book
was discovering that killed a guard of Bingen not only
(22:22):
invented her own language. She also invented her own music
notation to.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Be stopped Stopped. She is the patron saying of this podcast.
You know, she's so cool, she's so cool with.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
She's amazing.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, she made the first music notation that could actually
be like rhythmically like defined. And it took them like
until like two thousand and six to realize that she'd
actually done this, because they were like, oh, like oh,
pretty cool, like oh god, done well, like la la la.
She's written all these songs like no, no, she's like
absolutely transcended all of those other like medieval commoss and we.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Like, that's a huge problem that we have with medieval music.
And you know, when people kind of ask me about
medieval music, it's it's it can be really tricky because
we don't always know this. We we don't always know
exactly like what time we're supposed to play things, and
you know, we will have lyrics and we occasionally get
sheet music, but I mean, obviously we have more later
(23:31):
for obvious reasons. But then also the other thing that
people kind of don't realize is, you know, they are
expecting polyphony and they're not gonna get it. For her
early long time, right, And it's like it's a it's
a really interesting thing where like even now when you
try you hear people doing what they think is kind
of like medieval music. It's usually polyphonic, you know, you
(23:53):
have a harmony and melody, and every time I hear it,
I'm like, hmm, okay, I mean like a fourteenth century
onward obvious, but like you know, earlier, Yeah, but I
mean I think but it's sort of like no surprise
that it takes people a while to develop this because
if they're they're at a point where they can't even
kind of communicate what measure they're walking in, then then
(24:13):
how are you going to be? Like oh, and also
let's think about singing in a slightly different way. It's
too much. It's too much, you know, right, But yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Like but also like all of that early notation was
so built around the idea that you would improvise it.
So it's far more like jazz than like like high
class call like church music than we think of it today.
So like kind of I am kind of like, oh,
these people who are like just you know, making it
up and like arguing about like, oh, should we be
interpreting nessa's this pitch and like, yeah, like of course
(24:45):
we should, like let's just go with it, like this
is what you were doing at this night.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah exactly, because you know, I'm sorry, there's no way
that someone who's like writing something like down in Poitiers
it's going to necessarily know that if by the time
it gets to Cologne, it's going to have yeah, exactly
the same thing. It's it's what you're putting the vibe
out into the and hoping that it comes back to you.
And you know that's kind of like all part of it.
(25:10):
I guess, right, you.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Know completely, But oh no, god, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I just feel like this is just such an interesting
thing too, because you also talk a bit about varying
notation systems that come in other places, because I mean,
obviously we're we're both sitting in Europe and so we
tend to talk about these things in the European context,
but we also know that in the East we have
different notational systems that are coming into play, and in particular,
(25:39):
you talked about how Shallin monks are involved in this. Yeah,
I was like, yes, my eyes start glowing immediately.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Also, another like foundational childhood memory just being taken to
the Shaolin Temple and being like, I just what the
fuck is going on? Like I why am I here?
Like watching like Marshal Arws and then literally fourteen years
later discovering that this guy invented the mode scale.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And you're like, okay, and again this is I'm sorry,
but this is too many things I need. I need
like polymaths to knock it off, because like I'm having
trouble writing books and keeping my kitchen clean, and these
people are like martial arts and no pick one. Yeah,
just you can only have because And but I just
(26:30):
think that that is really interesting too, because I think
that there's also you know, we have this tendency in
the way that we relate to music. Now. You know,
I'm sure that in the process of publicizing this book,
he must be absolutely tired of people telling you that
stupid writing him at music is like dancing about architecture.
How many times has that been said to you? But
(26:52):
at this point, but it's like, I do find it
quite interesting because we have this time, see to sort
of act as though music needs to exist in this way.
You know, Yes, we have music criticism, like certainly, you
know there are people who are writing about, you know,
new albums and things like that. But there is this
(27:12):
tendency to kind of think of it as in art
that sort of exists over there, as opposed to something
that can be ruled into varying other traditions. And I
mean certainly we see this a lot of the time
in the East with music. So for example, people are
often surprised when you know, I say that one of
the one of the martial arts I practice is a capana,
which is flower arranging, and hose don't know, but they
(27:37):
need to. And this is a similar thing, I would
argue is what we're seeing at Chalinn is it's like, well, yeah,
and you know you do you do like the the
kicking bit, but then also you have to do the
music bit right or it doesn't make any sense. Yeah,
well you.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Doing the maths bit as well. I think that was
quite helpful for Shoes. So basically he he discovered the
modern scale at roughly the same time as Simon Stevin,
who's like the Dutch mathematician an engineer who is hypically
credited with bringing it to everyone. But but you discovered
(28:10):
it like a little bit earlier. Basically, the current thinking
is that he it was easier for him because he
was doing it all in the abstract, like as a
mass problem, because he didn't need to like have quote
unquote equal temperament, sorry for using like good. It was
like basically, it's where this idea that like the gaps
(28:32):
between each note of the same distance, which you just
literally can't ever do, like it's just impossible. Everything everything
changes in tuning. Yeah, So so they think that because
he wasn't having to be all like how do I
fit my my my lyre into this into the shape,
that that helped him out because he was just kind
(28:54):
of doing it as like a sudoku style thing, and
it was and it was just like primarily visual to him.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Mm hmmm. That's so interesting. I mean, it's just a
really I think that this is one of those elastic
brain things that that some people have, which I unfortunately
fundamentally lack, you know. Like but again, this is one
of the reasons why my parents insisted that we all
play instruments like other than reading music. They like it
will help with maths, which it did, which is annoying.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, like parents, they're constantly right. But but then I
was also thinking when I read this this particular chapter,
because the first time I kind of like really thought about,
you know, sat down and started thinking about the notation
of music as art is when I heard someone actually
(29:44):
play the music that's being tattooed on the guy's butt
in that heronymous book. Yeah, you know, hell scene. I
was like, yeah, you know, like and that's so interesting, right,
because it's it's it's similar to the cop shells in
the cave, right, It's like, hey, I like, listen, play that, like,
think about this music while you're looking at this particular scene, right,
you know, And there can be as far as I'm concerned,
(30:06):
there can be no other reason why you're including that
in this hell scene if not for that. It's like
we're showing you a hurdy gurdy. We're showing you the
music notation, So you should understand the sound I want
it to have in your head, and here's the notes
that it's playing. And that is just such an interesting
thing for an artist to do, especially you know, relatively
(30:27):
early on, I would say.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
But also remember you should associate it with the butt.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I do and the hurdy gurdy. That's like one of
the way it is one of the more infernal instruments right,
It's like that. It's that and the bagpipe are the
really the ones you know that you're gonna hear.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
My cousin plays the bagpipes ague choice.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Oh see my mate a front of the show Doctor
Jamie Page another medieval history. He was texting me today
about bagpipes because we're normal people and he but he
plays like the indoor medieval ones and he was saying
to me, oh, yeah, well they're a lot quieter, you know,
like the ones that you hear now the modern ones
are for specifically playing outside.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I feel like that's it. Isn't that like a bit
of a cop out?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah? Yeah, but it was like it makes your neighbors
hate you less at least, I guess. But I mean,
I'm I'm I'm pro bagpipe, which is a controversial position
to take, but you know, I do. I was like, oh,
I guess that makes sense that you do kind of
have two different ones for like indoor versus outdoor.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I'm sorry, I just I have to, you know, be
like being a HIC from the United States of America.
I have a question. Is it common to hear bagpop
music at all times of day and hour in England?
Is that a common problem people in Scotland.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It is Scotland. I'm not joking.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
I'm not I honestly in some some places in the UK,
Like you're not surprised to come across some bagpipes.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, Like I wouldn't be sure if I was. If
I was walking down the street and I heard bagpipes,
I wouldn't be like, oh that's weird. It wouldn't stop
me in my tracks. Let's just say that. So, like,
I guess it's enough of a thing that people have opinions.
I mean, I guess it's the thing. So I hadn't
really thought about it. That's a good point, Luke.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No, I just like because like you will, like walk
down the street here, you'll hear music, Like occasionally you
hear somebody playing their guitar or something like that. Like
I used to live in Denver. I lived down the
street by a guy who played the trumpet. The trumpet
and he would play in like in in bands and stuff,
(32:47):
and he would practice every once in a while. You'd
hear it. You'd be like, oh, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
But like I've never like like if someone's like, oh,
I played the trombone, I'd be like, oh cool, that's nice, like,
you know, good for you. I hope you enjoy playing
the trombone. But I guess that's probably not nearly as
loud as like.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They are quite loud. I guess it's the major thing.
I think that they sound beautiful, but I wouldn't say
that it's a quiet instrument. It's a great one to
play on bonfire night. You're not gonna you're not gonna
get drowned out.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Oh you know that that's true, though there will that
would be backpipes.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, that is true. There are bagpipes about bonfire right. Yeah,
I hadn't thought about it. M there you go.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It's amazing your instrument, Like you need to be the
bagpipe guy.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
I can't. I'm going to say this, and you're gonna
roll your us. Anybody you can play music, No, listen,
I cannot keep time in my head. I can't. I
cannot do it. The like the part of my brain
that allows that to happen stops because my brain goes
(33:57):
to other things even while I'm playing music. It just does. Like, yeah, the.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Bagpipe is perfect for you because just drag it out. Baby,
You're just an artistic.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Only no one else. No one does, no other bagpipe,
so us like, this is how it happens, this is
how it works.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh man, there'd just be people who have like this
instinctive like memory from like hundreds of years ago, and
they're like, that's not how it's supposed to sound.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
That's terrible, what is wrong?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
But I also okay. So another thing that had occurred
to me while I was reading the book too, is
that I kind of came into contact and it made
me realize that with some thing like this earlier in
the year, when I was down in alge looking at
the Apocalypse Tapestry, because one of the things that exists
(34:54):
in the Apocalypse Tapestry in the Borders is they have
angels who are playing instruments. Yeah, and they they have
kept instruments there that correspond to everything that the angels have.
The angels have like, you know, trumpets, and they've got harps,
and they've got all of these very little, uh like weird,
little tiny organs, like upright organs that kind of play
(35:16):
like an accordion and things like that. And I was like, oh,
I guess that I am kind of aware of this,
but it's so interesting that it took your book to
make me kind of put two and two together with that.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I mean it completely makes sense, because I feel like
I felt like such a weirdo going through life being like,
oh my god, look here's art and music. Here's my
art and music, and like, you know, well my choir
bodies would be like oh okay, and like you know,
I was like, okay, great. That's so it can't just
be me, Like there must be a book out there,
(35:52):
Unlike you can get academic books about like specific time periods,
but like nothing nothing that actually kind of set out
the whole, like, look, this is this is how it
happened throughout history, and like maybe there's a thread like
beats it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, And I mean, I guess I'm more I'm really
used to kind of like using lyrics and things like
that in my research. And so you had this this
one anecdote that was really sad because it's about something
that has been looted, which we've lost now. But could
do you talk to us a little about about the
secular epitaph and which is just like a it's just
(36:35):
like so sad and melancholy and b I would like
to kill whoever eluded it. But that's like.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
So it was found when they were excavating from a
train line in Turkey, and it's basically this like steal,
so like a column, a little column with song lyrics
and then like music notation over the top, and it says, God,
should I get out the lyrics for you?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I've got I've got them. Don't worry. It's like she's prepared,
she did her notes.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I think I the stone am an image. Seculars placed
me here as a long lasting sign of deathless remembrance.
While you live, shine, have no grief at all. Life
exists only for a short while, and time demands his due.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah. So basically they think that either crated this to
commemorate someone who had died his father, or possibly himself,
just to be like I want to live forever.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So that they found it dug it up when they
were building a railway line, and then the chief engineer's
wife was like, oh my god, this will be an
amazing flower pot stand. And Jesus Christ, they.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Were built different in the nineteenth century. Let me just
say that just like they're just like I'm having that.
It's fine. You know, but yeah, but I thought it
was really interesting because so I will be an LCD
sound System nerd right now. So listen, she's a millennial.
She's allowed when I do it. It's cute. There's this song,
(38:20):
arguably my favorite LCD sound Sister song that's called Tonight,
and it goes everybody's singing the same song, it goes Tonight.
I never realized all these artists talk about so much
about dying. Oh yeah, yeah, and I'm just like, this
is the same fucking song. It's kind of like it's
it's very interesting and like, you know, because it is
(38:42):
it's doing the same sort of thing about looking at
mortality and considering mortality, but also just being like, this
is the best news you're getting all week, right, Like,
you know, the fact that that we're we're kind of
going through this existential thing, and I find it so
interesting to see that coming from the first or second century.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Exactly, and it's still like it's still powerful, you know,
Like it's so a lot of the scholarship about the
Still is like, was, oh, the lyrics are quite trite,
and it's like, are they really like they still.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm sorry, what were you doing in the first sentence
Jesus okay, right.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Oh, look, someone's copied them like a million times, or
like use the same sentiment a million times? How trite?
Like boring?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
It's all tried.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Everything we're doing, everything we're doing now the same human
song and dance is trite. People have been talking about
music forever. It's the like, God, it's.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Fine, Like, how dare you, how dare you use music
to relate to the world around you in the human
experience of mortality? That's why don't you do something?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Guy who refuses to use a cigarette or a lighter
to light a cigarette because people because people have been
manipulating fire for two million years and that you know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, Like I find it quite interesting how like people
can react like that. And it's almost like again, you
know this, I guess that to a certain extent, I
kind of relate to it, as you know, this desire
to be a critic as opposed to being an academic
or a lover or like like, you know, I it's
(40:27):
something that I have at times been uh my self
criticized for my criticism of books, where I'm always just
like I love it. This looks so good, you know,
but but on the other hand, it's like, for the
most part, any book that gets sent to me get
sent to me because they're like this, bysical love that,
and then I do, right, you know. And then I
very rarely get set things where I'm like, oh, that's
not very good, right, you know, because why would you
(40:49):
put it in front of me if it wasn't, you know.
And so I do think that that there is this
kind of like interesting thing there where there there does
also exist, I mean, both in the heart of the
academ and the critic, this desire to make a negative
point about things in order to kind of like prove mastery.
I think it's like you call something trite because you're like, well,
(41:10):
I'm aware of a lot of things that are like this, actually, but.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It's certainly but it's particularly the case with music, I think.
But there's this desire to be like, oh, no, I'm
I'm an expert or I'm a connoisseur of this genre,
and I have to use the proper words, even though
the proper words actually have synonyms that other people understand
and are a little bit clearer. But no, I have
to use the proper jargon, and I have to keep
(41:37):
it out of everyone else's reach.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Which I think is also kind of like a part
of you know in which you address in the book,
like kind of the generalized snobbery surrounding stuff like pop
music for example, right, which I've certainly in my early
age just like fell like in my teenage years, I
was incredibly a victim to this where it was like,
you know, all pop music is bad. And now I'm like,
I pretty much just listened to George Michael, like that's
(42:04):
basically it. But I'll tell you what, if you're when
you become a really big George Michael fan, it like
it really brings the people together because if you wear
like George Michael things out in public that everybody wants
to talk to you about how much they love George Michael.
Do you know how many conversations I've had with purportedly
straight men who want me to know that they would
go gay for George Michael. Listen, It's like it's over five, Okay,
(42:29):
I'll just.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Say that, you know, I told you that in confidence.
Come on, not like I haven't said that for like
other like I've said shit like that on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Do you know what like, basically if if you get
anyone talking about George Michael long enough, they will talk
about how they would like to have sex with him.
But it's also because he very clearly fucked right, Like
he's one of the only people who could really write
about sex in a convincing way because you know, like
you know, God bless her and we almost protect her.
But like when Britney Spears would like talk about sex,
you're like, sure, honey, but it's like when George Michael's
(43:06):
talking about it, you're like real ship bro like.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Notes, take notes.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
But yeah, like I mean, you you write a really
interestingly about Taylor Swift in this really like joyful way
that I really enjoy and you know, like especially when
we're when you're talking about kind of like signifiers with
instruments and like her pink piano, and I was like,
I guess I just never really thought about it, which
is again why why you get our historians around so
(43:34):
that you can be like, hmmm, all right, I got
a lot to ponder rights.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
All I see, I still don't know what became of them.
I was driving me nots like I want to.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I mean, there's gotta be like someone who's like repurposing
all those like fancy pianos, like you know, there's like
I have like a mirror ball piano or something. Yeah,
and I'm just like, who is I mean, I guess
maybe they just have so much money back, Like I
can't imagine they get destroyed, Like where did they go?
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah? Just I mean are they in the mets or
the Vanning mm hmm retrospective?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
One hundred percent? Go to like a blinged out instrument retrospective?
That would be good. But right, well, can we also
talk just a little bit about representations of art because
I was very glad to see well actually in the
first place, let's just talk about you are a brave
woman to write this book. How much money must have
you paid an image fees? Like, I mean, girl, because
(44:41):
like I'll tell you what, Like I was out of
pocket like around fifteen hundred quid when I wrote my book.
I had like twelve images. This is full of images.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
That was basically the intelargeble Like.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Oh my god, oh Jesus Christ. Nobody talks about it.
Nobody talks about it. When you're an author, you have
to pay your own image rights. Phase. Yeah, like people
should talk about it more.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Really, Yeah, yeah, huh.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
And even when you're an academic, and.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
When you're an academic you have to do it. You'll
be like writing an academic paper that you're not that
you're going to make zero money on, and then you
want to have an image in it and they're like
oh yeah, and like a lot of the like they
like feel around in the air and they're like, damn, oh,
I feel like that's like two hundred quid And you're
like why. They're like, I don't know, it just like
feels right. Yeah, And then you're like, okay, cool, cool,
(45:36):
I was gonna say something nice about your collection and
they're like, yeah, please don't do that. But yeah, you've
got tons and tons of great images. But I have
always had a soft spot for Dega because we share
the same birthday shout out July nineteenth, and you know
he has you know, for those not who are not
Diga heads, he does these incredible paintings of ballerinas, like
(46:00):
all of these beautiful, like ballerine is kind of like
both backstage and performing, and they're really interesting because they're
very much like of a time right where a lot
of people see ballet or like go to ballet or
can relate to them because I think you kind of
have to be able to step into the imaginary with
(46:22):
them to kind of like understand where the music is
and like what this is in relation to. And now
people really relate to ballet as like a ballet is
very high falutine, yes, right, you know, whereas like at
the time it was a lot more like the Little
Bear in the Car, which is a sistance reference, thank you,
but you know, like everybody could go to the ballet,
and I think that like Diga is really that's kind
(46:44):
of like what I get when I see it is
that it's like, here's it, here's something that we all enjoy,
and I'm going to kind of preserve this entertainment for
posterity in a particular way. How do you How do
you feel about my characterization there is.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
That we definitely but also I kind of feel like
he's using it as like a here's our shorthand of
like something that we all know, and then like what
can we do with it, Like how can we like
reimagine or like extend what ballet looks like? Because I
mean so with a fan example that I talk about
in the book, so he basically painted this fan shaped
(47:20):
thing it was never actually going to be used as
a fan, but he painted like the like marks of
the like folds on to be like, oh yeah, it
was totally. It was totally a fan, like someone totally
took it with them And that's kind of like the
extension of this like like the artworks space and what
it does. Yeah, that one, that.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
One, that one. Yeah, but yes, sorry to everyone who
can't see it. It's really cool. Yeah, it looks kind
of like I don't know, like a night sky with
dancers dancing through it, and it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
He's he's painted it from the flies as well, like
literally so he's like above the stage, like so it's
so mad.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
It's so gorgeous anyway, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Basically, it's just like asking you to imagine that you're
sat next to like you're both watching the ballet, and
you're also sat next for a fancy lady in a
box like fanning herself with this fan.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Imagine like, I wish you know someone out there please
make a hundred quid off me right now by making
this and taking my money.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
I'll do it my side hustle.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, I mean we all need more, right simply to deserve.
But Yeah, I'm really struck by this because when you
see that kind of like bade me go back and
think about all of the times that you see kind
of like music or dancing portrayed in art, which is
you know, constant, and especially in weirdly medieval art, you
(48:49):
get so much of it, right, Like you are way
more likely to see a scene of musicians at a
feast or dancers at a feast, then you are just
like anything in ordinary life, you know, which is to
say that it isn't a part of ordinary life, you know,
because obviously people are musicians, and obviously this is what
they're doing for their job. But clearly it's rarefied right
(49:14):
to be to be in the banquet. And yet this
is what we kind of get portrayed time and time again,
which I think is a really clear demarcation of its
importance to the people who are making it. But I
guess that also kind of like doesn't go away, right. So,
but then at the same time, there are all these
(49:34):
kind of like signifiers of it that we then lose culturally,
right because like one of the big things I really
like to point out to people is so is portrayals
of Salome from the medieval period, because what medieval people
consider a sexy dance that will like make someone go
cut off the head of John the Baptist for you,
(49:55):
is really different to what we consider a sexy dance now.
And so like, uh, the the image of Salome that
is on the facade of Rulan Cathedral, for example, it's
like her doing a backbend and she's like a hoop
and they're like, sixy, you like that and and but
it's also like a very clear that they're including it
(50:16):
because they're like, no, this is gonna go so hard,
We're gonna like put the sexy dance in. It's like, oh,
dance in the Seven Veils. Here we go, and like
it's meant to kind of be titillating, and it's just
lost on an audience now, like you you have to
know that's a dancer. You have to know that that's Slome.
You have to and like at the time they would
have all been like, oh, yeah, this is completely legible
to me, Like that's that's our girl. That's our girl Slome.
(50:39):
Now everyone is like, who's this acrobat, you know, and
it's like no, like girl, that's a stripper, you know.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
She's sexy.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
She's sexy, you know, but you had also included and
it's right under the dagayle fan. This really excellent image
of that is about like kind of spy on sexy
ladies playing music, right, And it is a gorgeous image.
Now I've lost it there it is, okay. So it's
Alexander on his way to conquering India and he's like
(51:11):
looking into a pond and there's like sexy ladies playing
instruments in the pond, and I'm like the scandal.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
It's the gorgeous fifteenth century image and like it looks
very kind of like Persian, I want to say something
like that. Yeah, yeah, and it's got like a gorgeous
gold background, and I mean, let me talk about six
sexy ladies who have tambourines. Yeah, which, so like what
(51:40):
are you gonna do? Like that's that's basically sirens.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Right, Yeah, you lean off your horse and you go hellla.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And that's how you know you're on your way to India, right,
Because the further east do you get, the like, the
more instruments there are and the sexier the ladies are.
That's that's geography. So I don't know what to tell anybody,
But do you have like any particular images like with
musical instruments that really you really wanted to like get
in in the book? Like you're like, yeah, girl, do
(52:13):
you know how much money I spent on images in
all of them?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
But yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna flick through.
Actually you know that it's the like the Megan Watts
Hughes image from the Idophone. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. This
this lady who like she was she was gonna like
be a really famous opera singer, and her village in
(52:37):
Wales paid for her to go to the Royal College
of Music and then something happened and she couldn't do it.
So instead she was like, Okay, I'm gonna go back
to Wales and I'm going to experiment with my voice
singing into what is essentially an ear trumpet piece of
glass to the end.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Hell yeah, girls a vant garde.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, that's actually she's there like trying to like figure
out whether it can help her vocal technique, and she's
put sand in and she notices that like it's creating
all these floral like patterns. So she starts to take
prints of them by like mixing up glycerine and colored pigments,
and she can actually like consistently produce the same like
(53:23):
floral motif from each note basically well like wild yeah,
like so, And honestly, she published this pamphlet like showing
people how they could produce God Save the King, She
needs My Girl.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
That that's the last one I watched to produce. But oh,
Blairs like like, can I do anything else?
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (53:51):
I really liked that the kind of section about like
visualizing music. And I was also really struck by your
discussion about like color theory and music and like you know,
assigning varying colors to varying tones, because that it instantly
makes sense to me. But then I'm also like, is
my brain weird? Think about things like that?
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Just means that you have what's it called? Is it
like synesthesia?
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Or yeah, you know, it's just normal.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Which I've been told that I have because I when
I think about old dates, like things in the past,
and my brain take on like a like a like
a weathered quality to them, like their old pictures or something.
And someone was like and a and A and A
therapist was like, yeah, that sounds like snesthesian. I'm like,
(54:40):
because I think everything is like an old timey.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Picture like Sepia back then.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yeah, oh, let's let's not let's not plumb those depths.
Welcome my insanity, but yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yeah. No,
color theory and music is really cool. I agree that
it's a thing. It's just again, I don't know how
you difer like what is red to someone and what
(55:06):
is blue?
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, so it's like here we have. It's but it's
interesting because you kind of get people tend to sort
of agree on it is a thing. So we've got
there's this Alexander Wallace Frimington's diagram of mapping color onto
frequencies that's from nineteen twelve, and then we see George
Fields like correspondence of colors to the octaves that's like
(55:29):
happening in eighteen seventeen, and baby, it's not dissimilar. Yeah,
let's just say that. So there does seem to be
some kind of human thing that we all kind of
agree on in terms of we're like, yeah, like that's yellow.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
That's so interesting. It's like there were composers out there
literally being like having coming to blues of each pitch. Correspondent.
I mean yeah, and it's like very different tones of
the same color. I like it, right, like fight fight
it's greenish blue.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah, like, which is just so cute. Like I don't
I feel like we don't have enough fist fights about
art anymore. We really should bring it back, you know,
bring it back, right, Like.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
We need more art theft and we need more art fights.
The thefts are coming back. We're loving it. They mean, yeah,
we threw a ladder up to the up to the
poor robe, just fucking furious that there was like a
big yeah, and he's just he's just so mad because
he's like, would you like me to point out? And
(56:37):
they're like, we see the fucking ladder. Dude, He's like,
God damn it. I got out of bed for the ship.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I love it because like at first, I was all like, oh,
this is gonna be like so like our songs lupin
Like I'm like, well, let's let's go like the Gentleman Thief.
And it's like.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
This is this is a fucking smashing grab.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
Let's go so good, so good. But yeah, I think
because I'm also aware that things are going to start
exploding now, so I will stop like affusing at you, Ellie,
but like I suppose that for me like really kind
of like to take away for the book, I'm what
(57:16):
is so incredibly interesting is this this incredibly human desire
both to create music and also bring it into everything
that there is. You know, like let's think about when
we first come up with movies, for example, we're like, oh, yeah,
you got to get an organ in there. There's this
whole aspect of it that that has to include music.
(57:39):
You know, even when it's a painting. We liked people
to kind of think about things and and vice versa.
You know, we we wish to kind of augment music
with images, and you know, it's kind of like not
lost on me for example, that like Fantasia exists and
this is something that you know, we showed little kids
in order for them to kind of like start understanding
what it is you do with music. But I wonder
(58:01):
if there's anything that I've kind of not covered that
you really want the good people to know before they
go they all run out and buy do it an
Artful History of music?
Speaker 3 (58:11):
I want I want people to feel safe reading it
even if they don't know about music, because I just yeah,
actually it's completely fine to not know like any theory
or how to read music. That if you like music,
this is a book for you, like if you love
listening to music.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Like I could not agree more and I've learned so
so much, and it's like okay, listen, Yeah, I just
outed myself as like an incredible nerd. We get it.
Like for the eight million times that was the thing,
everyone was like cool. Yeah, Like, I mean, she's never
done anything that wasn't incredibly like aloose and cool. But
(58:52):
you know, I guess that it really depthened my understanding
of music. And also I guess it just brought a
lot of things together for me, which I think is
really the sign of a really accomplished piece of work
where you can find that these these bits of information
and put them in front of audiences and make gid
them think about it in a new way, which I
(59:13):
guess also ultimately is what successfully we're attempting to do
with music, you know, trite or not? No, right, Oh great,
it's the worst, isn't it? People talking about how they
like the stuff that The only thing worse than people
talking about how they liked something you made is them
being like saying that they don't, but no one ever
says it to your face when they don't.
Speaker 3 (59:34):
It's like hype behind the sophone.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah, but it's like it's very difficult, Like, especially in
British society, we do not take compliments. We just kind
of stare at you comfortably.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Please don't do this, please, sir, save that for the bedroom.
That's sir, I don't I don't know about it. Where
were you from such a forward young man?
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Soon?
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah, exactly, you know. That's it's just the explosions are
literally just Ellie's head because I said something nice about
her book.
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
I can't wait to Uh we should have a little
trio once taking out the bagpipes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Yeah, it'd be beautiful. Yeah, it's just which is like,
it's one of the best instruments to play on your own.
It just really lends itself to solo. Although listen, it's
in it's it is the solo instrument. And when I'm
sixty four shout out of the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, you
recently had a song that evolved sixteen bass clarinets.
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
A little a little known band, the Beatles.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Yeah, you might have heard of them, you know that
Bom Bom bom bomb, Come on bass Claire at the
house down. You don't know, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
I have never heard you go this hard for the fucking.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
You never let me lose.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
I never let you. This whole show is me asking
you questions.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
You can do it anytime.
Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
That is the one thing I will push back against you,
all right, doctor Eleanor Chan, thank you so much for
coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Due really is fantastic. I had a joy reading it.
A lot of it really resonated with me. I like
the fact that it was like you, the buffoon who
knows nothing about music can participate in enjoy it. And
I was like, you know what, I can that that's
talking about me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I'm the idiot, doctor Chan. Thank you. Please tell people
where they can find the book, where they can find
more of your work, anything and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Oh oh say, you can find it at all good
bookstores in the UK at the moment, but you can
also find it from the sixth of January and all
good bookstores in the US.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And yo, if you're in the US and you're interested
in this book, which you should be, pre order this
because pre orders are a really big deal for authors.
So yeah, it's like, I don't know why it works
that way, but we live in hell. So just just
order this guddamn book. Right, we'll come out on the
sixth of January. You can give it to people as
(01:02:29):
an epiphany gift. You can be like we're doing old
fashioned Christmas. That's what's up on medieval Now, here's your
here's your epiphany present the end, like I brought it
all together as a pro. Don't worry. This is my job.
(01:02:49):
I don't know why. Like seriously, we actually have like
like a good guest guest on and like I immediately
act like an idiot. But that's fine, it's good.
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Oh you're you're doing good. You're the I'm usually the
one acting like the idiot. It's fine. It's uh, doctor Chan,
thank you very much for coming on the show again.
Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
The book is called do It a Do It an
Artful History of Music. There it went, I had it
there it is because you don't have to read the
PDIAF because it's actually illegal for me to hold the
book at this moment. I will will all we will
all go to jail.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Elie will explode.
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
And I won't do that. Uh yeah again, check it out.
Find the book. It's great, Uh, doctor Chan, thank you
very much. Uh doctor Yanniga, what's going on with you?
What you got?
Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
You know what? I in one of those spaces where
I just did a bunch of stuff, but it hasn't
come out yet. So the best place to find me
letting you know what I did is on the socials
at Going Medieval. You know how it is. Your girls
stood in the salt bog for you. She got sick
again all week. There will be content forthcoming, okay, but
(01:04:11):
just like not yet, not.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Yet, that's right. Yeah. You can find me usual places,
Lucas Amazing. You can find my now very old show
of people's history of the Old Republic. If you want
to hear me yep about Star Wars. You can find
it wherever you're listening to this anyway. Thank you all
very much for listening. Thank you doctor Sham for coming on,
and we will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Bye bye woo.
Okay, like the important thing about where Ellie is is
Ellie's down in Lewis, and Lewis has kind of like
the most banging bonfire night celebrations in the UK. I
mean that literally and figuratively.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh fuck, I forgot it's the fifth of November.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Oh you're not supposed to forget, Luke, I remember?
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Not only did I not only did? I? Uh man,
I'm I'm terrible at the things I'm never supposed to forget. Occasionally,
I occasionally forget about nine to eleven. I occasionally forget
about you know, I forget about the the Gunpowder plot,
which I.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Should never be forgot.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
No, I'm not even wearing a poppy like I don't.
I'm so sorry. I hate the troops or whatever.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, that's right, that's right, But.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I hate the World War One troops.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Damn you.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
From history in a stupid war that.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
That's my number one group. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, there's no way, there's no way you'd forget onon
finite down here. They literally wake us up every fifth
of November six am volley of fireworks. No, sometimes on
the sixth as well at dawn.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Oh my dear god.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
It's not like it's not what you're doing to us.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
It's just, oh, I'm glad that I am not okay,
So I really want to go one day, but it's
like a whole thing. It's also almost like impossible to
get in or out. You've got to like set up
camp a few days earlier if you want to go.
But it's like, you know, but also I'm not living
there and like owning pets and things of this nature,
(01:48):
so like to me, this is like good frivolous fun,
but I like don't own a dog and live there.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So you know, anyway, the trickers you put on, all
the lights, you put on Taylor Swift, close the curtains
like full volume Swift and like.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Just like they did during the Blitz.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
That's right, that's right, exactly, exactly exactly, that's what you
know we'd have.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
World War two is the only good war, Like it's the.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Only yeah, I know, it really is like.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Other than like this, other than like, you know, a
civil war like very the American Civil War is one
of the rare ones where no, there was actually one
good side and one bad side and it's not and
it wasn't like, well there's a good side, but they're
being funded by seven PROCs, and you was like, okay, fine,
(02:43):
Like Old War two is the only good one, Like
it's it really, you know, it's the only one where
we all said, no, there's a clear thing here, there's
a clear problem. We go we have to go and
do this. And then we did it, and then we
were like, yeah, let's not learn anything from that except
all the wrong lessons.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I kind of feel like it just hasn't finished, like were.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Still, yeah, that's the World War.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think. I think it's more like I think it's
sort of the same with the American Civil War, because
like the American Civil War, the North one they won,
slavery was abolished. It was and and to say that
it wasn't as bad, and I really do think detracts
from what people did and the conscious effort of you know,
(03:33):
the the enslaved people and and and the Union Army
and their allies. Uh. But the problem is that we
just let all of the southern UH generals and and
and bureaucrats in through the back door. Uh. None of
them had to pay for their crimes, you know, in
(03:54):
any real or meaningful way, and they came in and their.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Paper clip I would argue yeah, there exactly.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Their ideology just came just came in through the back
door and filtered in that way. And I mean, and
and I do think that lost cause aspect mingled with
the lost cause aspect that was there for a lot
of uh unreconstructed Nazis after World War Two, and a
lot of them got invited in here. You know, we
(04:25):
kept working with them in Gladio and ship like that.
So it was like, you know, I think I think
it did end. I just think like, unfortunately the aftermath
of it, since we haven't ever actually uh uh fully
equalized revolutionary revolutionized society, the ruling class just did the
same thing and incorporated in negative externality or something. I
(04:48):
don't alli.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Welcome to the Marxism podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
It all goes it all goes back, like I don't know,
I can't.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It's a similar thing right where like guy Fox stuff
because on the one hand, you know, I am sort
of like, hell yeah, brother, blow up parliament, but not
for the reasons he wanted to. I'm like, it's like
our civil war. And I always say that the trouble
with the UK is we really wasted our civil war.
(05:19):
We wasted it on puritanism and like that's how you know,
so that's why you end up with still having a
monarchy because people are like, actually, this is sort of
better than experiences.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Yeah, was a bit boring.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Yeah, we just haven't done we haven't done anything useful
since because of it. So it's like we don't even
have We've got none of it.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Real English democracy's never been tried before.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
Actually, let's we should probably talk about this excellent book.
We should probably talk about this excellent book. And let
Ellie go because she's like, things are I'm so serious,
things are gonna start blowing up.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
The entire plot of v for Vendetta is is occurring
right outside her winning.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It's actuallyus you joke, but like I'm just like embraced
for it, like.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It is literally gonna start happening. But I don't know,
maybe the American listeners will like that.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Let's go, all right, let's do this. Hello and welcome
(06:51):
back to We're Not So Different, a podcast about how
I'm always forgetting to remember the things that's I'm told
to remember. And uh yeah, folks, today we've got an interview,
so don't have any Patreon questions. Normally we do answer
questions from our patron's here if you want to do
(07:11):
that or you want to hear our bonus episodes. There
are literally almost one hundred of them available, plus all
of these episodes ad free. You got check it out
patreon dot com. So I w nsdpod five dollars a
month and uh yeah, good stuff. Check it out anyway,
I'm onto the show. So today we're talking about music,
(07:32):
and now music is not my strong suit. It's like
drawing and painting and a lot of other forms of
artistic expression. It befuddles me in my brain. I can't
see how the notes on the sheet connect to the
notes on the instrument, or how to stop my ADHD
long enough to allow me to keep time without wondering
often thinking of other things. This is a serious problem.
(07:53):
When I when the band, when the game rock band
was popular, and they were like, oh, you should do drums,
and I'm like, cool, I can't do anything on my
foot because I cannot keep time with it. I will
think of other things and stop keeping time. And they
were and I was like, you have to let me
play the guitar or the bass. I cannot do the
hands and the feet at the say it doesn't work.
(08:13):
I don't. I can't help it. What's more, I have
a terrible voice, even though I do enjoy singing a
little too loud. Now I'm not just doing my usual
self effacing stuff. I do have a point to all this,
and it's very simple. Despite being awful at creating, creating music,
playing music, or even dancing to music, I love it
very much in it moves moves me deeply, and to
(08:34):
be honest, I'd say that describes a great mini humans
throughout history, maybe even a vast majority. There's something so
moving and profound to it that it transcends time, space
and ability. It moves all of us, perhaps not in
the exact same ways, but it does move us nonetheless,
from virtuoso to those of us who can't tear it.
Carry a tune in a bucket, As my dad would say,
(08:55):
you need no more proof than to look at our guests.
Doctor Eleanor Chan's new book Duet and Artful History of Music.
In the first chapter, she anecdotally mentions a place called
the Caverns in Grundy County, Tennessee a couple of times
as a place where people gather to listen to music
in caves. Well, lo and behold. I'm one of those
(09:16):
people who has gone there to listen to music in
the caves, and it is super cool. I have a
very distinct memories of visiting. God, why is windows stop
popping up shit? While I'm trying to read windows zero?
Why am I getting pop ups? I'm not even on
an actual but wind as my anecdote, ruined by technology, Victory,
(09:38):
but Lerry and Jihad forever. Anyway, I have very distinct
memories of visiting the caves on the way to my
various kin who lived in Tennessee, and taking it to
her that allowed us to hear music in the cave.
The way it bends and warps, is it pings and
karums off cave walls or slowly follows their undulating paths
is an extremely trippy and amazing experience and memory I
(10:00):
always cherish. Now, I don't know if doctor Chan has
been to Grundy County or not, but I am willing
to bet we have experienced many of the same emotions
listening to music in caves, despite me being a layman
and she being an accomplished scholar on the subject. And
I think that's neat and probably indicative of something deeply
connective about being human blah blah blah, the enduring power
(10:22):
of the human spirit blah. But enough of my rambling, folks.
Today we are talking to doctor Eleanor Chan, whose new
book Duet is a broad view of the history of music,
focusing on all of the visual information that goes into
musical composition, arrangement, and performance, and it comes with both
helpful artistic depictions of some of the topics presented and
(10:44):
a fun track list at the end too. In addition
to being an author, doctor Chan is a historian of
Renaissance art, music, and visual culture, and is the author
of two previous books and has held a number of
prestigious fellowships. Doctor Chan, thank you very much for joining us.
How the hell are you?
Speaker 3 (11:02):
It's a delight. I'm kind of scared. I'm gonna get
blown up.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
To be honest, you meant by me, and I'm like,
how would I know about me? Like, like, oh, I
called you out for never having gone to fucking Grundy County.
I'm sorry, you rank Charlotte. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It's I can't imagine why somebody who's not from the area,
wouldn't go there, but it is lovely. Cavers of Tennessee
are very fun. Uh. There's a reason evil man Neil
Gaiman uh uh ended American gods at near Chattanooga where
(11:49):
all those caves are. Anyway, Eleanor, I'm sorry, Ellie. Uh
and to doctor Eleanor.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Since we're doing to Eleanor's and I've I've found that
or Chan is an Ellie. We're gonna go with Ellie.
Is that is that helpful?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Would you like a fun fact about Yeah, what's the
collective noun for a group of elements? What is it?
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Really? I didn't know we even had Hell yeah, yeah,
all right, listen, because we've.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Got we've got two of the of the ninety people
still living in the world with the name Eleanor.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Here today, you know over here it's way more. It's
like when I was growing up in the States. You
got to understand it's a problem. It was like when
I was growing up in the States, people were like
really like it was. It was considered like outrageous. And
I am constantly like establishing Eleanor quorums. I got my
(12:50):
Eleanor penny. I've got you know, who's a bad bitch,
we can all agree. Uh, you know, I've got my
other mate, Eleanor, who works for the Museums Journal. Also
we're showing up at like a museum e events together
and confusing people. It's like the things of this nature,
so like you often try to like get nicknames out
of people. So we'll go with Ellie. But Allie, I
(13:14):
am so glad that you let me drag you on
to this podcast because I freaking loved this book. I
devoured this book in like two days, and I just
thought that it's so great because you get so much
really complex information into it, and you go through so
much time. It's like a masterclass in getting information in
but it's really really fun, Like it feels like a
(13:37):
pub conversation, which I want to point out for me,
this is the highest possible praise for a work of writing,
because I think that I don't know if you like me,
spend a lot of time reading academic work, which I
know you do a lot of the time. You get
so bogged down in technical writing, which is important and
(13:58):
there's a reason that we have it. But I don't
want to read it for fun. I read it from
my job. But Duet really doesn't do that. I guess
the best place to start with talking about this is
right at the beginning and music and caves, because you
start off so well with this anecdote about a catch
(14:20):
and a cave in what is now southern France and
maybe can you tell us a little bit about about that?
And so I was.
Speaker 3 (14:28):
Quite lucky when I was eleven. My parents were like, right,
we're gonna give you a really really big, like historical education.
We're gonna go to a cave. We're gonna go and
see some cave art. I'm like, my god, like I
don't even know if it's still open, but like that
was such a such an education. I think that's probably
what made me an art historian. The experience of like
going down into that space and like hearing how this
(14:51):
the tour guy's voice was just kind of it was
like in my ears. It was like in the years
before podcasts. It was like literally having.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Like your friend telling you it does act and.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Cool shit like you're sitting in a pub.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Basically it really doesn't sound the same. It's it's there's
something about the way the walls are and like how
like area it is with you know, with the paths
and everything. It sounds different in your head than it normal,
than than a normal person talking does or singing or whatever.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah. Yeah, But so like I thought, right, if I'm
going to start this story anywhere, I should start it
in this place which is so important to me. And
you know, probably probably it must have some kind of
like special acoustic thing. And I thought it was kind
of anecdotal, just kind of like the personal experience of
what it was like being in a cave, as you say, Luke,
(15:44):
But what I discovered was actually the archaeologists currently think
that all of the cave paintings were painted in like
particularly resonant areas. And so there's an incredible example, as
we're saying, the conch shall from the Marsillus Cave from
the South France, which is literally painted with the same
dotted patterns as the bison motif where it's supposed to
(16:08):
be played. They think, and it's got So they've recreated
this shell thing and discovered that actually has like an
incredible incredible resonance, and you don't get the same like
sound experience anywhere else in the cave, like not outside
the cave. It's it's just like it's all so connected.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I've had that so incredibly cool because you know, clearly
you know, and like obviously we're joking about it, but
there is this this very uniquely human desire to a
make music and b show other people how to do it,
I suppose, because I think that there there's something to this,
(16:50):
you know, as you point out, obviously I've read your book,
internalized it and now making it a facet of my personality,
right as though I know these things, but you know,
you know, obviously I think to me that these these
things kind of indicate this real desire to keep this
particular tradition going. I'll explain to other people how to
do it. And I think that that's just such like
a deeply human thing, right, the desire to propagate a
(17:15):
social ideal around there.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Sure, and there's actually that links to the other cave
that I ended up looking at, where they found these
bone flutes dating back thirty thousand years. But then they
discovered that it had been like basically used as a
model for all these much newer flutes, so that you know,
they're only like fifteen thousand years old or five thousand
years old. So they basically they think this cave was
(17:40):
kind of like a museum of like flutemaking. There's literally,
like you know, this desire to like show people how
to do it and be like, look, look, this is
part of our culture. This is so important to us.
This is what we do.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So getting it said to flutemaker school at this one cave. Yes,
your group doesn't have a good flutemaker. You know, everybody
has to do it. You have to have one, right.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Yeah, everyone has to go get yourself a griffin.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I think, like I've seen programs before where people kind
of like do recreations of prehistoric music, especially like at
the stone tablets that you kind of roll rocks on
and things like that, and and you know, you look
at them and you're and you kind of have these
like silly sort of flintstone ideas in your head, but
it genuinely makes gorgeous music where you're like, oh, okay,
(18:27):
well that's me shown right. Like you know, I'm like,
I'm so used to this kind of a you know,
obviously very modern world. You know, like uh, like I
was shout out, I'm about to sound so cool. I
was a bass clarinetist, so like you don't et y'all,
don't even know eny, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right,
(18:47):
and like and so it's like it's this thoroughly thoroughly
modern instrument, right, even if you might like associate it
with kind of like old timiness or like classical music,
like it's just not very old at all. And then
you go look at what it is that people are
doing and how it's a real value for them. Like
(19:08):
if by the time you have like an entire group
of people who are collecting flutes and making flutes and
being like come here, we need to figure this out,
it's very clear that this core cultural value.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Right, No, completely, I mean like also it's that's their
way of like communicating it because they don't write music down,
like they don't have notations. It's like way more up
your street book. Like literally just this idea that actually
you can like I suppose communicate like the shape of
like the and the pitch that like a flute should
(19:42):
be able to create. It's like the scale in diagram.
It's literally like that, and like if you just follow
the measurements and the diameter, you can like recreate it,
like you don't need like notes written down.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Well, okay, but can we talk a little bit about
oh it's written down right. Okay, because for you all
those who have not read the book yet, which go
do that, but anyway and then come back.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
The way. Fine, it'll be fine commentary on the book.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But the way Elliet approaches the subject
is kind of by subject matter. So you know, we
have an instrument section and we've got, you know, a
section about a notation. And for me, I'm really interested
in musical notation because I'm a nerd who did choir
and played the bass clarinet and you know, like I
(20:35):
used to do. You know, I used to do musical
theater when I was really fucking cool. But you don't
need to worry about how cool I was, all right,
and so like I can read music, you know, and
it's one of those things, you know, like my bass
cleft not so great. I'm more of a treble cleft girl.
It's fine, it'll be fine. But you know, this is
kind of like one thing that you know, my hippie
(20:57):
parents really kind of had us all do. We were
like sat down and it was like, yeah, that's cute.
You will do band until at least year eight, and
then after year eight you can choose to stop if
you wish, but you have to do something because it's
like important to be able to read music. But you
were talking about in the book how there's kind of
(21:17):
we've lost an emphasis on learning to read music. And
I feel like this is just such a sad thing
because you go through this like gorgeous history of talking
about how even systems of notation begin. So I guess
now that I've blurted all of that out, can we
kind of begin at the beginning to talk a little
bit about notation systems? Because I thought this chapter was
(21:38):
just excellent. I just loved it.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
So yeah, So basically, we start to get notation systems
across the world in the kind of form that we
might begin to recognize them. And you do get them
a little bit earlier, so like in ancient Greece, but
I'm going to go straight into kind of the ninth century,
so that's you start to get these kind of them nimes.
(22:01):
So they follow like the flow of like a melody,
but you can't actually divide them up into like rhythmic
information that you have to make all of that up.
And one of the absolute favorite parts of this book
was discovering that killed a guard of Bingen not only
(22:22):
invented her own language. She also invented her own music
notation to.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Be stopped Stopped. She is the patron saying of this podcast.
You know, she's so cool, she's so cool with.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
She's amazing.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Yeah, she made the first music notation that could actually
be like rhythmically like defined. And it took them like
until like two thousand and six to realize that she'd
actually done this, because they were like, oh, like oh,
pretty cool, like oh god, done well, like la la la.
She's written all these songs like no, no, she's like
absolutely transcended all of those other like medieval commoss and we.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Like, that's a huge problem that we have with medieval music.
And you know, when people kind of ask me about
medieval music, it's it's it can be really tricky because
we don't always know this. We we don't always know
exactly like what time we're supposed to play things, and
you know, we will have lyrics and we occasionally get
sheet music, but I mean, obviously we have more later
(23:31):
for obvious reasons. But then also the other thing that
people kind of don't realize is, you know, they are
expecting polyphony and they're not gonna get it. For her
early long time, right, And it's like it's a it's
a really interesting thing where like even now when you
try you hear people doing what they think is kind
of like medieval music. It's usually polyphonic, you know, you
(23:53):
have a harmony and melody, and every time I hear it,
I'm like, hmm, okay, I mean like a fourteenth century
onward obvious, but like you know, earlier, Yeah, but I
mean I think but it's sort of like no surprise
that it takes people a while to develop this because
if they're they're at a point where they can't even
kind of communicate what measure they're walking in, then then
(24:13):
how are you going to be? Like oh, and also
let's think about singing in a slightly different way. It's
too much. It's too much, you know, right, But yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
Like but also like all of that early notation was
so built around the idea that you would improvise it.
So it's far more like jazz than like like high
class call like church music than we think of it today.
So like kind of I am kind of like, oh,
these people who are like just you know, making it
up and like arguing about like, oh, should we be
interpreting nessa's this pitch and like, yeah, like of course
(24:45):
we should, like let's just go with it, like this
is what you were doing at this night.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Yeah exactly, because you know, I'm sorry, there's no way
that someone who's like writing something like down in Poitiers
it's going to necessarily know that if by the time
it gets to Cologne, it's going to have yeah, exactly
the same thing. It's it's what you're putting the vibe
out into the and hoping that it comes back to you.
And you know that's kind of like all part of it.
(25:10):
I guess, right, you.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Know completely, But oh no, god, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
I just feel like this is just such an interesting
thing too, because you also talk a bit about varying
notation systems that come in other places, because I mean,
obviously we're we're both sitting in Europe and so we
tend to talk about these things in the European context,
but we also know that in the East we have
different notational systems that are coming into play, and in particular,
(25:39):
you talked about how Shallin monks are involved in this. Yeah,
I was like, yes, my eyes start glowing immediately.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Also, another like foundational childhood memory just being taken to
the Shaolin Temple and being like, I just what the
fuck is going on? Like I why am I here?
Like watching like Marshal Arws and then literally fourteen years
later discovering that this guy invented the mode scale.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
And you're like, okay, and again this is I'm sorry,
but this is too many things I need. I need
like polymaths to knock it off, because like I'm having
trouble writing books and keeping my kitchen clean, and these
people are like martial arts and no pick one. Yeah,
just you can only have because And but I just
(26:30):
think that that is really interesting too, because I think
that there's also you know, we have this tendency in
the way that we relate to music. Now. You know,
I'm sure that in the process of publicizing this book,
he must be absolutely tired of people telling you that
stupid writing him at music is like dancing about architecture.
How many times has that been said to you? But
(26:52):
at this point, but it's like, I do find it
quite interesting because we have this time, see to sort
of act as though music needs to exist in this way.
You know, Yes, we have music criticism, like certainly, you
know there are people who are writing about, you know,
new albums and things like that. But there is this
(27:12):
tendency to kind of think of it as in art
that sort of exists over there, as opposed to something
that can be ruled into varying other traditions. And I
mean certainly we see this a lot of the time
in the East with music. So for example, people are
often surprised when you know, I say that one of
the one of the martial arts I practice is a capana,
which is flower arranging, and hose don't know, but they
(27:37):
need to. And this is a similar thing, I would
argue is what we're seeing at Chalinn is it's like, well, yeah,
and you know you do you do like the the
kicking bit, but then also you have to do the
music bit right or it doesn't make any sense. Yeah,
well you.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Doing the maths bit as well. I think that was
quite helpful for Shoes. So basically he he discovered the
modern scale at roughly the same time as Simon Stevin,
who's like the Dutch mathematician an engineer who is hypically
credited with bringing it to everyone. But but you discovered
(28:10):
it like a little bit earlier. Basically, the current thinking
is that he it was easier for him because he
was doing it all in the abstract, like as a
mass problem, because he didn't need to like have quote
unquote equal temperament, sorry for using like good. It was
like basically, it's where this idea that like the gaps
(28:32):
between each note of the same distance, which you just
literally can't ever do, like it's just impossible. Everything everything
changes in tuning. Yeah, So so they think that because
he wasn't having to be all like how do I
fit my my my lyre into this into the shape,
that that helped him out because he was just kind
(28:54):
of doing it as like a sudoku style thing, and
it was and it was just like primarily visual to him.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Mm hmmm. That's so interesting. I mean, it's just a
really I think that this is one of those elastic
brain things that that some people have, which I unfortunately
fundamentally lack, you know. Like but again, this is one
of the reasons why my parents insisted that we all
play instruments like other than reading music. They like it
will help with maths, which it did, which is annoying.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Yeah, like parents, they're constantly right. But but then I
was also thinking when I read this this particular chapter,
because the first time I kind of like really thought about,
you know, sat down and started thinking about the notation
of music as art is when I heard someone actually
(29:44):
play the music that's being tattooed on the guy's butt
in that heronymous book. Yeah, you know, hell scene. I
was like, yeah, you know, like and that's so interesting, right,
because it's it's it's similar to the cop shells in
the cave, right, It's like, hey, I like, listen, play that, like,
think about this music while you're looking at this particular scene, right,
you know, And there can be as far as I'm concerned,
(30:06):
there can be no other reason why you're including that
in this hell scene if not for that. It's like
we're showing you a hurdy gurdy. We're showing you the
music notation, So you should understand the sound I want
it to have in your head, and here's the notes
that it's playing. And that is just such an interesting
thing for an artist to do, especially you know, relatively
(30:27):
early on, I would say.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
But also remember you should associate it with the butt.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I do and the hurdy gurdy. That's like one of
the way it is one of the more infernal instruments right,
It's like that. It's that and the bagpipe are the
really the ones you know that you're gonna hear.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
My cousin plays the bagpipes ague choice.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Oh see my mate a front of the show Doctor
Jamie Page another medieval history. He was texting me today
about bagpipes because we're normal people and he but he
plays like the indoor medieval ones and he was saying
to me, oh, yeah, well they're a lot quieter, you know,
like the ones that you hear now the modern ones
are for specifically playing outside.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
I feel like that's it. Isn't that like a bit
of a cop out?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah? Yeah, but it was like it makes your neighbors
hate you less at least, I guess. But I mean,
I'm I'm I'm pro bagpipe, which is a controversial position
to take, but you know, I do. I was like, oh,
I guess that makes sense that you do kind of
have two different ones for like indoor versus outdoor.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
I'm sorry, I just I have to, you know, be
like being a HIC from the United States of America.
I have a question. Is it common to hear bagpop
music at all times of day and hour in England?
Is that a common problem people in Scotland.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It is Scotland. I'm not joking.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
I'm not I honestly in some some places in the UK,
Like you're not surprised to come across some bagpipes.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Yeah, Like I wouldn't be sure if I was. If
I was walking down the street and I heard bagpipes,
I wouldn't be like, oh that's weird. It wouldn't stop
me in my tracks. Let's just say that. So, like,
I guess it's enough of a thing that people have opinions.
I mean, I guess it's the thing. So I hadn't
really thought about it. That's a good point, Luke.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
No, I just like because like you will, like walk
down the street here, you'll hear music, Like occasionally you
hear somebody playing their guitar or something like that. Like
I used to live in Denver. I lived down the
street by a guy who played the trumpet. The trumpet
and he would play in like in in bands and stuff,
(32:47):
and he would practice every once in a while. You'd
hear it. You'd be like, oh, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
You know.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
But like I've never like like if someone's like, oh,
I played the trombone, I'd be like, oh cool, that's nice, like,
you know, good for you. I hope you enjoy playing
the trombone. But I guess that's probably not nearly as
loud as like.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They are quite loud. I guess it's the major thing.
I think that they sound beautiful, but I wouldn't say
that it's a quiet instrument. It's a great one to
play on bonfire night. You're not gonna you're not gonna
get drowned out.
Speaker 3 (33:22):
Oh you know that that's true, though there will that
would be backpipes.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah, that is true. There are bagpipes about bonfire right. Yeah,
I hadn't thought about it. M there you go.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
It's amazing your instrument, Like you need to be the
bagpipe guy.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
I can't. I'm going to say this, and you're gonna
roll your us. Anybody you can play music, No, listen,
I cannot keep time in my head. I can't. I
cannot do it. The like the part of my brain
that allows that to happen stops because my brain goes
(33:57):
to other things even while I'm playing music. It just does. Like, yeah, the.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Bagpipe is perfect for you because just drag it out. Baby,
You're just an artistic.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Only no one else. No one does, no other bagpipe,
so us like, this is how it happens, this is
how it works.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Oh man, there'd just be people who have like this
instinctive like memory from like hundreds of years ago, and
they're like, that's not how it's supposed to sound.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
That's terrible, what is wrong?
Speaker 2 (34:31):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
But I also okay. So another thing that had occurred
to me while I was reading the book too, is
that I kind of came into contact and it made
me realize that with some thing like this earlier in
the year, when I was down in alge looking at
the Apocalypse Tapestry, because one of the things that exists
(34:54):
in the Apocalypse Tapestry in the Borders is they have
angels who are playing instruments. Yeah, and they they have
kept instruments there that correspond to everything that the angels have.
The angels have like, you know, trumpets, and they've got harps,
and they've got all of these very little, uh like weird,
little tiny organs, like upright organs that kind of play
(35:16):
like an accordion and things like that. And I was like, oh,
I guess that I am kind of aware of this,
but it's so interesting that it took your book to
make me kind of put two and two together with that.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
I mean it completely makes sense, because I feel like
I felt like such a weirdo going through life being like,
oh my god, look here's art and music. Here's my
art and music, and like, you know, well my choir
bodies would be like oh okay, and like you know,
I was like, okay, great. That's so it can't just
be me, Like there must be a book out there,
(35:52):
Unlike you can get academic books about like specific time periods,
but like nothing nothing that actually kind of set out
the whole, like, look, this is this is how it
happened throughout history, and like maybe there's a thread like
beats it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, And I mean, I guess I'm more I'm really
used to kind of like using lyrics and things like
that in my research. And so you had this this
one anecdote that was really sad because it's about something
that has been looted, which we've lost now. But could
do you talk to us a little about about the
secular epitaph and which is just like a it's just
(36:35):
like so sad and melancholy and b I would like
to kill whoever eluded it. But that's like.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
So it was found when they were excavating from a
train line in Turkey, and it's basically this like steal,
so like a column, a little column with song lyrics
and then like music notation over the top, and it says, God,
should I get out the lyrics for you?
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I've got I've got them. Don't worry. It's like she's prepared,
she did her notes.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
I think I the stone am an image. Seculars placed
me here as a long lasting sign of deathless remembrance.
While you live, shine, have no grief at all. Life
exists only for a short while, and time demands his due.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Yeah. So basically they think that either crated this to
commemorate someone who had died his father, or possibly himself,
just to be like I want to live forever.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
So that they found it dug it up when they
were building a railway line, and then the chief engineer's
wife was like, oh my god, this will be an
amazing flower pot stand. And Jesus Christ, they.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Were built different in the nineteenth century. Let me just
say that just like they're just like I'm having that.
It's fine. You know, but yeah, but I thought it
was really interesting because so I will be an LCD
sound System nerd right now. So listen, she's a millennial.
She's allowed when I do it. It's cute. There's this song,
(38:20):
arguably my favorite LCD sound Sister song that's called Tonight,
and it goes everybody's singing the same song, it goes Tonight.
I never realized all these artists talk about so much
about dying. Oh yeah, yeah, and I'm just like, this
is the same fucking song. It's kind of like it's
it's very interesting and like, you know, because it is
(38:42):
it's doing the same sort of thing about looking at
mortality and considering mortality, but also just being like, this
is the best news you're getting all week, right, Like,
you know, the fact that that we're we're kind of
going through this existential thing, and I find it so
interesting to see that coming from the first or second century.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Exactly, and it's still like it's still powerful, you know,
Like it's so a lot of the scholarship about the
Still is like, was, oh, the lyrics are quite trite,
and it's like, are they really like they still.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
I'm sorry, what were you doing in the first sentence
Jesus okay, right.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
Oh, look, someone's copied them like a million times, or
like use the same sentiment a million times? How trite?
Like boring?
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, that's the point.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
It's all tried.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Everything we're doing, everything we're doing now the same human
song and dance is trite. People have been talking about
music forever. It's the like, God, it's.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Fine, Like, how dare you, how dare you use music
to relate to the world around you in the human
experience of mortality? That's why don't you do something?
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Guy who refuses to use a cigarette or a lighter
to light a cigarette because people because people have been
manipulating fire for two million years and that you know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Yeah, Like I find it quite interesting how like people
can react like that. And it's almost like again, you
know this, I guess that to a certain extent, I
kind of relate to it, as you know, this desire
to be a critic as opposed to being an academic
or a lover or like like, you know, I it's
(40:27):
something that I have at times been uh my self
criticized for my criticism of books, where I'm always just
like I love it. This looks so good, you know,
but but on the other hand, it's like, for the
most part, any book that gets sent to me get
sent to me because they're like this, bysical love that,
and then I do, right, you know. And then I
very rarely get set things where I'm like, oh, that's
not very good, right, you know, because why would you
(40:49):
put it in front of me if it wasn't, you know.
And so I do think that that there is this
kind of like interesting thing there where there there does
also exist, I mean, both in the heart of the
academ and the critic, this desire to make a negative
point about things in order to kind of like prove mastery.
I think it's like you call something trite because you're like, well,
(41:10):
I'm aware of a lot of things that are like this, actually, but.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
It's certainly but it's particularly the case with music, I think.
But there's this desire to be like, oh, no, I'm
I'm an expert or I'm a connoisseur of this genre,
and I have to use the proper words, even though
the proper words actually have synonyms that other people understand
and are a little bit clearer. But no, I have
to use the proper jargon, and I have to keep
(41:37):
it out of everyone else's reach.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Which I think is also kind of like a part
of you know in which you address in the book,
like kind of the generalized snobbery surrounding stuff like pop
music for example, right, which I've certainly in my early
age just like fell like in my teenage years, I
was incredibly a victim to this where it was like,
you know, all pop music is bad. And now I'm like,
I pretty much just listened to George Michael, like that's
(42:04):
basically it. But I'll tell you what, if you're when
you become a really big George Michael fan, it like
it really brings the people together because if you wear
like George Michael things out in public that everybody wants
to talk to you about how much they love George Michael.
Do you know how many conversations I've had with purportedly
straight men who want me to know that they would
go gay for George Michael. Listen, It's like it's over five, Okay,
(42:29):
I'll just.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Say that, you know, I told you that in confidence.
Come on, not like I haven't said that for like
other like I've said shit like that on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Do you know what like, basically if if you get
anyone talking about George Michael long enough, they will talk
about how they would like to have sex with him.
But it's also because he very clearly fucked right, Like
he's one of the only people who could really write
about sex in a convincing way because you know, like
you know, God bless her and we almost protect her.
But like when Britney Spears would like talk about sex,
you're like, sure, honey, but it's like when George Michael's
(43:06):
talking about it, you're like real ship bro like.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
Notes, take notes.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
But yeah, like I mean, you you write a really
interestingly about Taylor Swift in this really like joyful way
that I really enjoy and you know, like especially when
we're when you're talking about kind of like signifiers with
instruments and like her pink piano, and I was like,
I guess I just never really thought about it, which
is again why why you get our historians around so
(43:34):
that you can be like, hmmm, all right, I got
a lot to ponder rights.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
All I see, I still don't know what became of them.
I was driving me nots like I want to.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I mean, there's gotta be like someone who's like repurposing
all those like fancy pianos, like you know, there's like
I have like a mirror ball piano or something. Yeah,
and I'm just like, who is I mean, I guess
maybe they just have so much money back, Like I
can't imagine they get destroyed, Like where did they go?
Speaker 3 (44:06):
Yeah? Just I mean are they in the mets or
the Vanning mm hmm retrospective?
Speaker 1 (44:17):
One hundred percent? Go to like a blinged out instrument retrospective?
That would be good. But right, well, can we also
talk just a little bit about representations of art because
I was very glad to see well actually in the
first place, let's just talk about you are a brave
woman to write this book. How much money must have
you paid an image fees? Like, I mean, girl, because
(44:41):
like I'll tell you what, Like I was out of
pocket like around fifteen hundred quid when I wrote my book.
I had like twelve images. This is full of images.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
That was basically the intelargeble Like.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Oh my god, oh Jesus Christ. Nobody talks about it.
Nobody talks about it. When you're an author, you have
to pay your own image rights. Phase. Yeah, like people
should talk about it more.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Really, Yeah, yeah, huh.
Speaker 3 (45:10):
And even when you're an academic, and.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
When you're an academic you have to do it. You'll
be like writing an academic paper that you're not that
you're going to make zero money on, and then you
want to have an image in it and they're like
oh yeah, and like a lot of the like they
like feel around in the air and they're like, damn, oh,
I feel like that's like two hundred quid And you're
like why. They're like, I don't know, it just like
feels right. Yeah, And then you're like, okay, cool, cool,
(45:36):
I was gonna say something nice about your collection and
they're like, yeah, please don't do that. But yeah, you've
got tons and tons of great images. But I have
always had a soft spot for Dega because we share
the same birthday shout out July nineteenth, and you know
he has you know, for those not who are not
Diga heads, he does these incredible paintings of ballerinas, like
(46:00):
all of these beautiful, like ballerine is kind of like
both backstage and performing, and they're really interesting because they're
very much like of a time right where a lot
of people see ballet or like go to ballet or
can relate to them because I think you kind of
have to be able to step into the imaginary with
(46:22):
them to kind of like understand where the music is
and like what this is in relation to. And now
people really relate to ballet as like a ballet is
very high falutine, yes, right, you know, whereas like at
the time it was a lot more like the Little
Bear in the Car, which is a sistance reference, thank you,
but you know, like everybody could go to the ballet,
and I think that like Diga is really that's kind
(46:44):
of like what I get when I see it is
that it's like, here's it, here's something that we all enjoy,
and I'm going to kind of preserve this entertainment for
posterity in a particular way. How do you How do
you feel about my characterization there is.
Speaker 3 (46:58):
That we definitely but also I kind of feel like
he's using it as like a here's our shorthand of
like something that we all know, and then like what
can we do with it, Like how can we like
reimagine or like extend what ballet looks like? Because I
mean so with a fan example that I talk about
in the book, so he basically painted this fan shaped
(47:20):
thing it was never actually going to be used as
a fan, but he painted like the like marks of
the like folds on to be like, oh yeah, it
was totally. It was totally a fan, like someone totally
took it with them And that's kind of like the
extension of this like like the artworks space and what
it does. Yeah, that one, that.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
One, that one. Yeah, but yes, sorry to everyone who
can't see it. It's really cool. Yeah, it looks kind
of like I don't know, like a night sky with
dancers dancing through it, and it's incredible.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
He's he's painted it from the flies as well, like
literally so he's like above the stage, like so it's
so mad.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
It's so gorgeous anyway, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
Basically, it's just like asking you to imagine that you're
sat next to like you're both watching the ballet, and
you're also sat next for a fancy lady in a
box like fanning herself with this fan.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Imagine like, I wish you know someone out there please
make a hundred quid off me right now by making
this and taking my money.
Speaker 3 (48:22):
I'll do it my side hustle.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Yeah, I mean we all need more, right simply to deserve.
But Yeah, I'm really struck by this because when you
see that kind of like bade me go back and
think about all of the times that you see kind
of like music or dancing portrayed in art, which is
you know, constant, and especially in weirdly medieval art, you
(48:49):
get so much of it, right, Like you are way
more likely to see a scene of musicians at a
feast or dancers at a feast, then you are just
like anything in ordinary life, you know, which is to
say that it isn't a part of ordinary life, you know,
because obviously people are musicians, and obviously this is what
they're doing for their job. But clearly it's rarefied right
(49:14):
to be to be in the banquet. And yet this
is what we kind of get portrayed time and time again,
which I think is a really clear demarcation of its
importance to the people who are making it. But I
guess that also kind of like doesn't go away, right. So,
but then at the same time, there are all these
(49:34):
kind of like signifiers of it that we then lose culturally,
right because like one of the big things I really
like to point out to people is so is portrayals
of Salome from the medieval period, because what medieval people
consider a sexy dance that will like make someone go
cut off the head of John the Baptist for you,
(49:55):
is really different to what we consider a sexy dance now.
And so like, uh, the the image of Salome that
is on the facade of Rulan Cathedral, for example, it's
like her doing a backbend and she's like a hoop
and they're like, sixy, you like that and and but
it's also like a very clear that they're including it
(50:16):
because they're like, no, this is gonna go so hard,
We're gonna like put the sexy dance in. It's like, oh,
dance in the Seven Veils. Here we go, and like
it's meant to kind of be titillating, and it's just
lost on an audience now, like you you have to
know that's a dancer. You have to know that that's Slome.
You have to and like at the time they would
have all been like, oh, yeah, this is completely legible
to me, Like that's that's our girl. That's our girl Slome.
(50:39):
Now everyone is like, who's this acrobat, you know, and
it's like no, like girl, that's a stripper, you know.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
She's sexy.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
She's sexy, you know, but you had also included and
it's right under the dagayle fan. This really excellent image
of that is about like kind of spy on sexy
ladies playing music, right, And it is a gorgeous image.
Now I've lost it there it is, okay. So it's
Alexander on his way to conquering India and he's like
(51:11):
looking into a pond and there's like sexy ladies playing
instruments in the pond, and I'm like the scandal.
Speaker 3 (51:19):
You know.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
It's the gorgeous fifteenth century image and like it looks
very kind of like Persian, I want to say something
like that. Yeah, yeah, and it's got like a gorgeous
gold background, and I mean, let me talk about six
sexy ladies who have tambourines. Yeah, which, so like what
(51:40):
are you gonna do? Like that's that's basically sirens.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Right, Yeah, you lean off your horse and you go hellla.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
And that's how you know you're on your way to India, right,
Because the further east do you get, the like, the
more instruments there are and the sexier the ladies are.
That's that's geography. So I don't know what to tell anybody,
But do you have like any particular images like with
musical instruments that really you really wanted to like get
in in the book? Like you're like, yeah, girl, do
(52:13):
you know how much money I spent on images in
all of them?
Speaker 3 (52:15):
But yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna flick through.
Actually you know that it's the like the Megan Watts
Hughes image from the Idophone. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. This
this lady who like she was she was gonna like
be a really famous opera singer, and her village in
(52:37):
Wales paid for her to go to the Royal College
of Music and then something happened and she couldn't do it.
So instead she was like, Okay, I'm gonna go back
to Wales and I'm going to experiment with my voice
singing into what is essentially an ear trumpet piece of
glass to the end.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Hell yeah, girls a vant garde.
Speaker 3 (53:01):
Yeah, that's actually she's there like trying to like figure
out whether it can help her vocal technique, and she's
put sand in and she notices that like it's creating
all these floral like patterns. So she starts to take
prints of them by like mixing up glycerine and colored pigments,
and she can actually like consistently produce the same like
(53:23):
floral motif from each note basically well like wild yeah,
like so, And honestly, she published this pamphlet like showing
people how they could produce God Save the King, She
needs My Girl.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
That that's the last one I watched to produce. But oh,
Blairs like like, can I do anything else?
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (53:51):
I really liked that the kind of section about like
visualizing music. And I was also really struck by your
discussion about like color theory and music and like you know,
assigning varying colors to varying tones, because that it instantly
makes sense to me. But then I'm also like, is
my brain weird? Think about things like that?
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Just means that you have what's it called? Is it
like synesthesia?
Speaker 1 (54:18):
Or yeah, you know, it's just normal.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Which I've been told that I have because I when
I think about old dates, like things in the past,
and my brain take on like a like a like
a weathered quality to them, like their old pictures or something.
And someone was like and a and A and A
therapist was like, yeah, that sounds like snesthesian. I'm like,
(54:40):
because I think everything is like an old timey.
Speaker 1 (54:43):
Picture like Sepia back then.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Yeah, oh, let's let's not let's not plumb those depths.
Welcome my insanity, but yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yeah. No,
color theory and music is really cool. I agree that
it's a thing. It's just again, I don't know how
you difer like what is red to someone and what
(55:06):
is blue?
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, so it's like here we have. It's but it's
interesting because you kind of get people tend to sort
of agree on it is a thing. So we've got
there's this Alexander Wallace Frimington's diagram of mapping color onto
frequencies that's from nineteen twelve, and then we see George
Fields like correspondence of colors to the octaves that's like
(55:29):
happening in eighteen seventeen, and baby, it's not dissimilar. Yeah,
let's just say that. So there does seem to be
some kind of human thing that we all kind of
agree on in terms of we're like, yeah, like that's yellow.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
That's so interesting. It's like there were composers out there
literally being like having coming to blues of each pitch. Correspondent.
I mean yeah, and it's like very different tones of
the same color. I like it, right, like fight fight
it's greenish blue.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah, like, which is just so cute. Like I don't
I feel like we don't have enough fist fights about
art anymore. We really should bring it back, you know,
bring it back, right, Like.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
We need more art theft and we need more art fights.
The thefts are coming back. We're loving it. They mean, yeah,
we threw a ladder up to the up to the
poor robe, just fucking furious that there was like a
big yeah, and he's just he's just so mad because
he's like, would you like me to point out? And
(56:37):
they're like, we see the fucking ladder. Dude, He's like,
God damn it. I got out of bed for the ship.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
I love it because like at first, I was all like, oh,
this is gonna be like so like our songs lupin
Like I'm like, well, let's let's go like the Gentleman Thief.
And it's like.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
This is this is a fucking smashing grab.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
Let's go so good, so good. But yeah, I think
because I'm also aware that things are going to start
exploding now, so I will stop like affusing at you, Ellie,
but like I suppose that for me like really kind
of like to take away for the book, I'm what
(57:16):
is so incredibly interesting is this this incredibly human desire
both to create music and also bring it into everything
that there is. You know, like let's think about when
we first come up with movies, for example, we're like, oh, yeah,
you got to get an organ in there. There's this
whole aspect of it that that has to include music.
(57:39):
You know, even when it's a painting. We liked people
to kind of think about things and and vice versa.
You know, we we wish to kind of augment music
with images, and you know, it's kind of like not
lost on me for example, that like Fantasia exists and
this is something that you know, we showed little kids
in order for them to kind of like start understanding
what it is you do with music. But I wonder
(58:01):
if there's anything that I've kind of not covered that
you really want the good people to know before they
go they all run out and buy do it an
Artful History of music?
Speaker 3 (58:11):
I want I want people to feel safe reading it
even if they don't know about music, because I just yeah,
actually it's completely fine to not know like any theory
or how to read music. That if you like music,
this is a book for you, like if you love
listening to music.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
Like I could not agree more and I've learned so
so much, and it's like okay, listen, Yeah, I just
outed myself as like an incredible nerd. We get it.
Like for the eight million times that was the thing,
everyone was like cool. Yeah, Like, I mean, she's never
done anything that wasn't incredibly like aloose and cool. But
(58:52):
you know, I guess that it really depthened my understanding
of music. And also I guess it just brought a
lot of things together for me, which I think is
really the sign of a really accomplished piece of work
where you can find that these these bits of information
and put them in front of audiences and make gid
them think about it in a new way, which I
(59:13):
guess also ultimately is what successfully we're attempting to do
with music, you know, trite or not? No, right, Oh great,
it's the worst, isn't it? People talking about how they
like the stuff that The only thing worse than people
talking about how they liked something you made is them
being like saying that they don't, but no one ever
says it to your face when they don't.
Speaker 3 (59:34):
It's like hype behind the sophone.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah, but it's like it's very difficult, Like, especially in
British society, we do not take compliments. We just kind
of stare at you comfortably.
Speaker 2 (59:44):
Please don't do this, please, sir, save that for the bedroom.
That's sir, I don't I don't know about it. Where
were you from such a forward young man?
Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
Soon?
Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
Yeah, exactly, you know. That's it's just the explosions are
literally just Ellie's head because I said something nice about
her book.
Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
I can't wait to Uh we should have a little
trio once taking out the bagpipes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Yeah, it'd be beautiful. Yeah, it's just which is like,
it's one of the best instruments to play on your own.
It just really lends itself to solo. Although listen, it's
in it's it is the solo instrument. And when I'm
sixty four shout out of the Beatles. Yeah, yeah, you
recently had a song that evolved sixteen bass clarinets.
Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
A little a little known band, the Beatles.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
Yeah, you might have heard of them, you know that
Bom Bom bom bomb, Come on bass Claire at the
house down. You don't know, you don't know.
Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
I have never heard you go this hard for the fucking.
Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
You never let me lose.
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
I never let you. This whole show is me asking
you questions.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
You can do it anytime.
Speaker 4 (01:01:08):
That is the one thing I will push back against you,
all right, doctor Eleanor Chan, thank you so much for
coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Due really is fantastic. I had a joy reading it.
A lot of it really resonated with me. I like
the fact that it was like you, the buffoon who
knows nothing about music can participate in enjoy it. And
I was like, you know what, I can that that's
talking about me.
Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
I'm the idiot, doctor Chan. Thank you. Please tell people
where they can find the book, where they can find
more of your work, anything and everything.
Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
Oh oh say, you can find it at all good
bookstores in the UK at the moment, but you can
also find it from the sixth of January and all
good bookstores in the US.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And yo, if you're in the US and you're interested
in this book, which you should be, pre order this
because pre orders are a really big deal for authors.
So yeah, it's like, I don't know why it works
that way, but we live in hell. So just just
order this guddamn book. Right, we'll come out on the
sixth of January. You can give it to people as
(01:02:29):
an epiphany gift. You can be like we're doing old
fashioned Christmas. That's what's up on medieval Now, here's your
here's your epiphany present the end, like I brought it
all together as a pro. Don't worry. This is my job.
(01:02:49):
I don't know why. Like seriously, we actually have like
like a good guest guest on and like I immediately
act like an idiot. But that's fine, it's good.
Speaker 2 (01:02:59):
Oh you're you're doing good. You're the I'm usually the
one acting like the idiot. It's fine. It's uh, doctor Chan,
thank you very much for coming on the show again.
Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
The book is called do It a Do It an
Artful History of Music. There it went, I had it
there it is because you don't have to read the
PDIAF because it's actually illegal for me to hold the
book at this moment. I will will all we will
all go to jail.
Speaker 1 (01:03:35):
Elie will explode.
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
And I won't do that. Uh yeah again, check it out.
Find the book. It's great, Uh, doctor Chan, thank you
very much. Uh doctor Yanniga, what's going on with you?
What you got?
Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
You know what? I in one of those spaces where
I just did a bunch of stuff, but it hasn't
come out yet. So the best place to find me
letting you know what I did is on the socials
at Going Medieval. You know how it is. Your girls
stood in the salt bog for you. She got sick
again all week. There will be content forthcoming, okay, but
(01:04:11):
just like not yet, not.
Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Yet, that's right. Yeah. You can find me usual places,
Lucas Amazing. You can find my now very old show
of people's history of the Old Republic. If you want
to hear me yep about Star Wars. You can find
it wherever you're listening to this anyway. Thank you all
very much for listening. Thank you doctor Sham for coming on,
and we will see you next time.
Speaker 1 (01:04:34):
Bye bye woo.
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