Medieval BDSM

NSFW, just saying.

folks, some people might try to tell you that humans only started engaging in BDSM in the 1960s, like it's a very recent invention. but, we're here to tell you that's wrong as people have been engaging in such practices since before the advent of writing! so we go deep on the subject, talking about some ancient BDSM practices before talking about how it was done in the Middle Ages. we talk about Abelard and Heloise, Guibert of Nogent, Saints Sebastian and Martha, and more!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello from an Echoe hotel in Amsterdam.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Hello, Every every day is a new adventure with you.
Where are we going to be, what's going to happen?

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, that's right, that's right. So you know, I'm taking
advantage of the fact that my boyfriend is an internationally
renowned trainer of sex educators, and sometimes they let him
go to Amsterdam, and then I say I could go
to Amsterdam, and then suddenly I'm recording in an Echoe hotel.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Room, and that's what happens.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
That's just how it be. Sometimes I did for work,
just have to record a podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Okay, like I listen.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Sorry, I'm stuck on you said trainer, and you said
trainer of sex education people. It's really like like you
thought you gonna be like trainer of sex and so
it's just him like watching people be like, no, you.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
You'll you can't do that.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
Time, Martha, No, pretty much grind, grind, you look like
you're breaking his dick off. Woman anyway, Sorry, he's actually
he's actually doing real good things instead of the dumb
shit in my head. Go ahead, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
But on the other hand, if anyone wants to hire
him to do that, we could use the cash, so
I'll be fine.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
Your technique is fucking awful. So I haven't even started yet.
Shut off.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Look I need to do but this is like I
need to call in to myself about the echoey situation
here because I'm gonna I'm gonna level with you, dear listeners,
who I love more than life itself. I understand this
hotel room is echoe okay for work, I just had
to do a podcast and in order to do it,

(01:58):
I made a blanket for it in order to like baffle,
and so I was in there for an hour and
fifteen minutes. But I can't I can't get the blanket
for it to not like have the blanket come down
on my head and it gave me a neck ache
because I just have like this big duvet slash comforter
or whatever you don know if you're Australian. And I

(02:20):
was just on my head the whole time and it
gave me an eckache and I was like, I can't
do it.

Speaker 3 (02:24):
I can't do it a second time.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
And you know what, the good listeners O were not
so different, deserve better. But also I'd like to see
you build a better blanket for it.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
In a hotel room. Impossible.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah, it's very difficult.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
No, that one's yeah, that's gonna be tough. You can't
move the furniture very much. You don't have the necessary
sticks or chairs you need, yeah, to prop it up. Look,
I don't know jack shit about architecture, but I can
build you a mean ass for it out of some
blankets if you give me, like, you know, a couple
of chairs, and you know, you.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Know what I kind of need is like a lighter blanket,
because even with the lighter blanket it would work. But
it's just like with the heavy one.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
I got that heavy with like rated for old people,
and you're just like your flop sweating like in in
the Middle Ages. You look like you're in a sweat
lodge man.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
And it's like and it's like full continental European hours
out here. There's no top sheet, you know. So it's
just like there's just this really heavy blanket.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
That's all I've got to work with.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
I have seen an image of it, and folks, it is.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Yeah, like it was whimsical the first time the second
time and like, you know, I already I think deserve
a pat on the back for not drinking beer. During
this podcast, so like you can see you can see
like the limits, Like I've got some professionality going. It's
just kind of like where is that? Where are the

(03:55):
limits thereof goes Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yep, oh man, and blanket for that's tremendous. I've seen
a picture of it, folks.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
You know.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
I it looks like if you are a fan of
the Alien movies and Prometheus, the the ship thing that
the engineers sit in, you know, the first one you
see is the big ship and you know, uh, he's
just he's just laying He's just sitting there. He's got

(04:31):
like the elephant mouth looking thing. And then in Prometheus
they kind of flesh it out more and that's kind
of what it looks like, like like sitting there and
just leaned back. Oh god, yeah, that's those hotel blankets
are rated for old people. That Yeah, you're just like, yeah,

(04:52):
it's like sweating your ass off.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know, it's Amsterdam, so there isn't really air con
and I mean it's it's actually you know, the weather
itself is pretty nice, but you know, if you're going
to sit in a blanket for it, you'd probably want
some kind of cooling thing anyway, like the point is,
there's a lot of things.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
I'll do for medieval history, but there's a there's a limit.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
It's it's fine. It's not echoing on this, uh what
you might call it is really good about zoom is
usually pretty good about isolating it. And I'll fix it
in posts if I have to. But yeah, it's fine,
they're fine. Everything is fine.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
It occurs to me it's so apt and appropriate to
be doing the kink episode. Well whilst an answerdawn.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Though, yeah, also a.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Ranting and like you know, side by side sickness has
really enabled something beautiful to come together.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
So that's great, that's right. Ye, well then yeah, let's
uh let's use that as a segue.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Hello, and welcome back to We're Not So Different, a
podcast about how I've always been idiots. My name is
Luke and I am not in a blanket for it
an Amsterdam, and as always I am joined by doctor
Eleanor Yannage who was in one until very recently. Folks,

(06:50):
it is not safe for work time here on the podcast.
But first we have patron questions. A question for Pearl
River Flow, how is medieval heckling done? Slash handled? Did
people boo bards who weren't good if someone came to
town to do a recital and it sucked, did they
really throw tomatoes? Well, not tomatoes, but you know whatever

(07:12):
they would have had. I know they did that stuff
during Shakespeare's time, but I feel like anyone, if anyone
is going to mention getting booed out of town, it
would be the guys writing and performing this stuff.

Speaker 1 (07:23):
Yeah, I mean for real, we do know that medieval
people think about performance as much more audience involved.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
We could just.

Speaker 1 (07:33):
Say that, you know, there's a lot more yelling he's
behind you and things of this nature. And that's partially
because the way that they do performance is a lot
more like and it could happen to you, right because
like that.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
But also, I mean performance is in such a new
is in such a protean form compared to what we
think of now. You know, like, of course you're gonna
like that. That's how little kids are about TV now,
I'm not like it literally is they're like these behind you, Dora,
these behind you know, like they do that ship you

(08:11):
know in the TV. Asked you a question, You're like yeah,
you know, like yeah, it's Yeahdian that's prodian art criticism, kidding.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
One for the elder millennial cloud, you know, like screaming
real loud when they say the secret word on pee
Wee's Playhouse there.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
You go out, I say Dora because it's the one
I remember from my kid, you know, from my kid
doing it, you know a few times. But yeah, yeah,
pee Wee, Yeah, definitely Peewee's. You know, definitely screaming at
the animaniacs like, oh no, yeah, Peter Lourie is behind you, Like,
how do I know who Peter Laurie? Doesn't matter, just

(08:49):
he's right there. Whack oh, get the fuck out of
the way, dude. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, Like so they got a lot more. They're very
much encouraged to think of themselves as part of performances.
And indeed, a lot of the time, if you see
a performance, most of the time, it's not going to
be by.

Speaker 3 (09:04):
Professionals, it's going to be by people.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's like John's doing the mystery play this year. Yeah,
and that kind of a thing.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, so they're gonna be a lot more like you
fuck it, suck John or whatever you know, to people
when you have like the finer and more high falutant
troops that then kind of like becomes more of a thing.
But still like.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
These are all, as general a rule of.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Thumb, more emotive, so you know, they would kind of
like boo or yell or things like that, but they're
they're also I guess when they're booming it a lot
of times it tends to be more kind of like
with the performance a lot more like they're expected to
do so, and we kind of like hear less about
them doing it in response to a bad performance. Now
we one of the reasons we know more about it

(09:50):
from for example, Shakespeare's like by the early modern period,
you've moved more into this idea of like the art
tour as a performer, like actor as a career, and
a play is a professional thing that you're going to see,
right whereas you know, for medieval people it's a lot
less professional. I mean, there are there are professional actors,

(10:11):
for sure, but you're not going to see them. They're
going to be at court, Yeah, they're going to be
at places like that. So you know, it's a lot
less common for ordinary people to have access to that stuff,
so we hear more about it. In the early modern
period because you have still that sensibility that plays are
interactive and that they're here for you and they're being

(10:34):
done for you, as well as the idea that these
are now people who you've paid good money to be
entertained and it's just like you know, the local mystery plays,
like no one's paid for this, so like you're not
You're not going to do people because that would that
would be ridiculous. I mean, even if you're a really
good troubadour or something and you're going around performing, you

(10:54):
pay them afterward. So if you don't like it, you
just don't pay or you wander off. And so I
think that there's also this kind of like barrier in
terms of like how payment works that really changes how
people see about things.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
So yeah, yeah, I when did did they throw fruits
and vegetables? I really hope they did and that wasn't
an early modern thing.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
I'm yeah, they probably did.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
You know, we do know that a lot of fruits
and vegetables get thrown at people who are in the
stocks first.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Ah okay, okay, I like it. I like it.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
I imagine that it probably spills over into that we
have fewer documents talking about it. But I am just
assuming that it happens, and that I know that it happens.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
If they threw them at people in the stocks and
they booed people who did this and like you know,
complained about the stuff, I can't imagine that it didn't
come to that at one point, because I mean that is,
you know, like when you don't have other words for
criticism other and boo is not loud or strong enough,
You're like, hey, what's this? Oh hey, this thing goes

(11:57):
splat and fucks up your clothes, you know, or you know,
hurts whatever, you know, And I'm thinking about tomatoes.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
But they just didn't have fucking to me like a
lot more throwing like horse maneure o.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Okay, well yeah proflow. Thank you for the question. Next
we got one from dog God, which is something I
have wondered about before too. How did medieval Christians feel
about burying the dead with valuable or sentimental objects? Did
the idea of bodily resurrection extend to the clothes they
were wearing or the items on their person? If not,

(12:38):
did they do it anyway? So like so you know,
like objects going into the grave with them, did they
do that.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Yeah, so grave objects absolutely do go in with people.
We tend to see it more in the earlier medieval period.
But by that I mean like objects, like a monopoly
of objects, And there's been some really great archaeological studies
about this where we think that perhaps in the earlier
medieval period, and by this I mean, like I'm kind

(13:06):
of talking more about like the eighth century ninth century,
grave goods, even in Christian burials are usually super present
and oftentimes include weapons, and so we think that there
may have been more of a perception of the journey
to heaven or purgatory or hell or wherever it is

(13:27):
you're going as being dangerous and something that one needs
to have been armed for.

Speaker 3 (13:33):
And this is especially true of Northern Europe.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
You know, places that are a little bit different, you know,
like less so in the Italian lands, more.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
So in Northern Europe.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
So you know, you put like staves in with people,
and oftentimes you do see jewelry, you know, like people's
favorite jewelry, crosses, super super common things of this nature.
So personal objects such as this are very common to
find in graves. And I think with that it's a
little just sentimental a lot of the time. You know,

(14:05):
like grandma's earrings, we're going to put those on her,
you know. And certainly we see a lot of crosses,
just so many crosses on people, and that probably is
also could like consider to be like epipatraychal, you know,
something that is going to ward off stuff, you know,
in in the afterlife. It will continue through the medieval

(14:27):
period of just kind of like bearing people with their
nice things, like you know there but personal objects that
one would wear on the person later in the medieval
period and less like oh this was her cup as
you see earlier in the medieval period. So there does
seem to be more of an idea and understanding that

(14:48):
you're going to go to some spiritual place. I mean,
you're not gonna need all of that, but like maybe
you know a cross would be good or you know,
no one could bear to where Granddad's ring anyway, so
we're gonna bear with.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah. I mean, I think the teaching that I the
biblical teaching that I understand both at least a modern
Catholic and Protestant is you know that when you die,
you are like, you know, a healthy version of yourself
and you go to heaven either you look like maybe

(15:23):
what you did when you passed away or like the
best version of yourself during your life. But you basically
get like a holy arraignment of some kind like a robe,
you know, like you know, basically because they can't imagine
any everyone being naked, so you're you know, your clothes
something like that. But then you know you don't take
any you don't take anything with you, you know, because

(15:45):
Jesus is like, you know, he's like very clear on
like you should give this away. You can't take it
with you, And people are like, huh, that's interesting. Cool anyway,
you know, throw my expensive gold ring in the grave
with me, don't sell it to feed the family.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, yeah, I guess.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Also, like a big thing that you tend to see
in the medieval period as well, like and why you
see like fewer you know, richly buried things or whatever,
is that there's also like a real.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
Understanding that like, yeah, you might go to hell.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
So like even rich people will be like, can you
dress me up like a monk, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Tonster me, And they're like what tonsure me? Now?

Speaker 3 (16:22):
Like Emperor Frederick the second is buried as a month.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yes, yeah, yeah, I remember ye, like famous ones who
are like, uh no, tonster me and they're like, no,
like to do it? Yeah, but what do you You're
not a do it? Yeah? Are you going to trick God?
Shut up?

Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah exactly, and they're like, well, I don't know shit,
maybe right, And then so.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Clearly there is an idea that there can be some
problems based on what you're buried with, or that how
you were buried is going to have some kind of
resonance whoever's judging on the other side. But you know,
for medieval people, there is much more of an understanding

(17:07):
that rich people are evil, so they are, especially from
the High Medieval period onward, they're gonna resist that in
a way that you don't see now, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yep, yeah, well that you know that that does clear
it up. Even though it's still cool to be buried
with the sword, regardless of what happened, you know, regardless
of what's going on in the next life. It's cool
to sword, Like I just want to be buried with
like random stuff that will confuse people like like some

(17:41):
future like historian like that, like my body is preserved somehow,
and they're like, oh my god, he was buried with
a spoon, which meant he must have loved the soup.
Maybe they worshiped soup.

Speaker 3 (17:54):
You know, and like I worship soup to be fair.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah yeah yeah, uh dog god, thank you for the question. Uh.
If you want to ask us questions like the ease,
please do subscribe to the Patreon at Patreon dot com
at slash w n Pod five bucks a month. We
just passed six hundred patrons. That's awesome. You guys are awesome.
Thanks for subscribing. Everyone else, subscribe to It'll be fun,

(18:18):
all right.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Also, seven hundred subscribers will build the for it again.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah. Well, we'll rebuild the blanket for it in a
hotel room in Amsterdam and do a live Oh my god,
I'm just probably it's seven hundred.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Local fly to Amsterdam. We'll build a blanket.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
For it, do a lot and do a live episode.
There's right, yep, uh yeah, Patreon dot com slash w
Nasty Pod. Uh, there's almost ninety bonus episodes. All other episodes.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Patreon has a goal like it blank and for.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Podcastank it for it live show.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah, and if you haven't checked it out yet, check
out our series Welcome to the Crusades. The first Crusade
with the American Prestige Guys UK and go to Welcome
to the Crusades dot com to get it for ten dollars. Patrons,
check out your emails and stuff for a code to
get twenty percent off. Anyway, all right, real quick, just

(19:23):
a warning, folks, You're about to have a frank discussion
about people engaging in BDSM in the pre modern world
and the sexual anerotic practices surrounding it, with some jokes
thrown in as is our wont it's going to be
very not safe for work. Now. There is nothing wrong
with talking about sex and joking about it or anything
like that. However, this is just a warning so that
you know going in that it might be a bad

(19:45):
idea to listen to this rendy coworkers or your boss,
or a young impressional child or just anyone. You might
not want to hear this sort of thing, so maybe
save it for later listening if you're in one of
those situations, or hey, go right ahead and listen. Now.
There's nothing wrong with talking about sex, you know, and
just you know, don't blame us if your ten year
old starts asking about the ancient Etruscan BDSM tomb slash

(20:07):
cum dungeon. Thanks.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
I can't say Tom come com dungeon.

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Yeah, yeah he could. I just did that. It just
doesn't work as well.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
The dungeon come to him. Yep uh. In nineteen sixty,
an Italian man named Carlo Lerici was excavating a site
near Tarquinia, a small town and large ruin that sits
along the western coast of the boot of Italy, when
he made a fascinating discovery. Now this is nothing new.

(20:42):
You can hardly throw a spade in the dirt on
the Peninsula without hitting an ancient Roman pottery shard or road.
They famously can't dig underground in Rome without finding new
pieces of history to excavate, so they just don't do it.
Yet this discovery in Tarquinia was different. It wasn't from
the Room Imperial era and likely dates back to within

(21:02):
two decades of the founding of the Roman Republic circa
five o nine BCE. However, this place wasn't even Roman.
It actually belonged to the Etruscans, a classical confederation of
city states that directly or indirectly held land stretching from
Mantua in the north to Campania in the south from
seven to fifty to around four to fifty. The Etruscans

(21:23):
are a well attested civilization, with troves of their art,
tools and buildings surviving, but only tiny fragments of their riding,
which means we typically define them by what the Romans
and Greeks said about them, and since Atruria was one
of the Roman Republic's earliest victims in terms of territorial conquest,
it was slandered thusly, as the losing side often is.

(21:46):
Even so, archaeological rimnants that shed more light on their
thoughts and ideas have survived into modern times, especially huge
burial complexes known as necropolee or cities of the Dead.
Interesting part of one of these necropolis was discovered by
Carlo l Rici in nineteen sixty. It was a small

(22:06):
tomb composed of a single chamber the size of a
small house or a large studio apartment in the wider
Montrosi Necropolis outside Tarquinia. The presence of such tomb is
not uncommon in Montrosi. That is the point of the place,
after all, it's what's intide the tomb that stands out
and lends it a name. Now known as the Tomb

(22:29):
of the Whipping. The structure was at once a work
of art imbued with ritual significance, meant to ward off
evil spirits, a liminal space with false doors leading to
an underworld, and undeniable proof that people have been engaging
in BDSM for a very long time. How could we
possibly know this about a tomb built by a civilization

(22:50):
in which very little writing survives, and that was forgotten
about and buried for more than a thousand years. Well,
you see, the Etruscans healthily left us an unmistakable clue, namely,
a giant mural depicting two men and a woman in
a threesome in what we might call an Eiffel Tower
style scenario. A beardless man is fucking the woman from

(23:11):
behind while holding a whip, whilst she is simultaneously philating
a bearded man who appears to be spanking her back.
This is flanked by a false wall that contains a
secret door leading out another image of two people, likely
engaging in intercourse the millennia of wear and tear have
left it questionable. Is also flanked by a false door.

(23:31):
The rest of the Tomb of the Whipping contains murals
of new musicians, dancers, and and boxers. We don't exactly
know the context for this vivid portrayal of BDSM, as
it has been implied that such sexually explicit images serve
apotropaic purposes, apotrophic purposes of warding off demons and evil spirits,

(23:51):
and may have been ritualistic in nature, or just a
nice mural of three people engage against some fun kink.
But we do know for a fact that you don't
make a mural like this portraying these acts unless these
acts are commonly understood within your society. You know that's
not how people really do that. So don't let anyone
anywhere tell you that BDSM in such forms of kink

(24:12):
are modern or postmodern phenomena. We've been doming and subbing
for far, far longer than that. So today we're going
to talk about BDSM in antiquity in the Middle Ages.
Why it's nothing new, And you know what this tells
us about ourselves. Eleanor before we go any further. You
are a historian of sex, and quite a good one
at that. Can you please explain what we're talking about

(24:35):
when we say BDSM. We all no doubt have ideas
in our heads, but you know, what practices are we
talking about here? And how far are you know? How
far are we going with this? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (24:47):
I mean good question, because you know there's BDSM and
then there's kink more generally, and BDSM obviously sits within
the window kink, but it's not all kink because I
don't know, like your kink could to be like giving
someone a nice foot massage and that's not very bdsny.
So you know BDSM specifically stansor of bondage discipline and

(25:09):
sado masochism, So it involves more explicitly giving and receiving
painful things, oftentimes tying people up, and ideas about power play,
so you know, moving around with the idea of like

(25:29):
who who is up, who is down? Who has the
power in this particular situation.

Speaker 3 (25:37):
Yeah. Yeah, So there's a lot of stuff that.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
You can do within that. You know, it could just
be like something like you know, dressing up and you know,
playing games, you know, with with like calling people varying names,
or you know, you could be like flogging people, you
know and doing serious stuff like that. But it's a
pretty wide umbrella. But it's just as a general rule
of what we mean is that there's power play involved,

(26:03):
there might be pain involved, and there might be being
tied up involved.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah. I uh so, you know, speaking from like a
clinical perspective, you know, a lot of people might find
this might not be for them, and it might even
kind of scare them or freak them out. I personally
am not a fan of u you know, uh, violent
or aggressive acts like this, you know, from a sexual perspective,

(26:33):
But a lot of people are you know, consenting adults
who are perfectly fine with this stuff. So, like, from
a clinical perspective, is is this like a sexual deviance?
Because people because you know, we really don't think of
like violence and sex going together like this often. So like,
you know, can you clear that up for people who
might be a little squeamish about it?

Speaker 3 (26:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (26:53):
I mean I think that there is a tendency, you know,
especially because you know, this is where consent comes in.
Oh no, my boyfriend is going to listen to this,
and I'm going to get consent wrong.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
It's gonna be Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
But so you know that the magical thing in every
single human interaction, like whether that be sexual or whether
it be ordering a pizza to quote by a boyfriend's
excellent book Can We talk about consent? Is is? Consent
is this thing about getting along in terms of going
along with what the other person wants. And that isn't

(27:27):
just saying yes.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Or no out loud with our mouths.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
It's about tuning into that other person, reading situations very carefully,
and going with things. You know. So for example, you know,
with ordering a pizza, you might just be like, Okay, look,
here are some things that I definitely do not want
to do or cannot do, Like if you're allergic to something,
you'll be like, hey, would love to eat a pizza,
but cannot eat X thing on my pizza, right, and

(27:51):
then people would have to do it within those confines.
Same thing can be true of sex, right, So people
who are interested in doing stuff like BDSM have to
get way better at the consent thing, right. Like that's
because since it is more advanced in terms of the
fact that like people can get really.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Hurt and you have to be very very careful.

Speaker 1 (28:14):
It means that you also have to get incredibly good
at negotiating what things are going to be done and
also in terms of how things go forward. And indeed,
often people who are doing things within the king community
are a little bit better with that than the average individual.
And also within that, I think that what a lot

(28:35):
of people who are into BDS actually say is that
oftentimes you know, the bottom if that's the term that
you want to use, or the s the sub Ultimately,
those are the people who the power lies with a
lot of the time, because they're the ones who are saying,
this is kind of like what we're going to do

(28:56):
and where it's going to go, and like I draw
the line at where we stop, kind of like a
wink wink, nudge nudge, like oh, I'm so helpless. Yeah
you know, well but really you're the one who's like, no, yes,
blah blah blah. It is what people would say. But yeah,
I think that it is important to point out that
when you do things that are physically painful, you have

(29:17):
a burden of care to be incredibly careful with people
and to be good.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
At checking in with others.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
So you know, that is what underpins practices of BDSM
these days. You know, I can say less obviously from
a historical context, because we don't have so many BDSM
manuals from the past unfortunately, But yeah, it is ultimately

(29:49):
a performance, right again, like something that that everyone is
agreeing to do. So that's what is important to keep
an eye on. And instead of thinking that that just
means anything goes, indeed, it doesn't mean anything goes. And
oftentimes people who are BDSM practitioners have to be much much, much,
much much more careful than anyone else otherwise would.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
Be Yeah, yeah, so that is uh, you know, that's
just the more modern context for what BDSM is and
what we're talking about. So as longtime listeners will know,
both Eleanor and I subscribe to the idea that there's
really nothing new under the sexual sun, as it were,

(30:31):
and even though we can't always see direct evidence of it,
humans have been engaging in similar sexual acts basically since
humans have been around. Or to put it more bluntly,
people didn't invent just being tied up for sexual purposes
in like nineteen sixty five. So who is it that
thinks BDSM hasn't existed for a long time? And what

(30:54):
is the reasoning behind this idea? Like why does it matter?

Speaker 1 (31:00):
So?

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah, people love them. I guess that people like.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
To pretend that sex in general was invented in the
nineteen sixties, right, Like, and you know there's a part
of this, which is that it squicks people out to
think about the fact that like their parents were banging,
or that their grandparents were banging, or any of those
other things. But there is a very political thing behind that, Like,
especially with stuff like kink, there is also this desire

(31:28):
I think, to think about sexual practices other than married,
monogamous penis and vagina sex as something new or something outrageous, right,
which I think is so hilarious because it's like, congratulations
the church one, I guess, like, you know, like they

(31:48):
really did a number on everyone and that's what managed
to happen. But acknowledging that people do things sexually for
purposes other than procreate then throws open the doors to
admitting that, like people who can't procreate or don't procreate.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Get to have sex.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
So you know, there's like a knock on effect for
all of our queer friends. You know, there are a
knock on effects for the way that we think about
sexuality generally. And you know, we are in a very
perilous place at the moment in terms of sexual freedom
and sexual abilities. We're seeing a massive crackdown like you know,

(32:30):
in the UK, we have seen like this new Online
Safety Act comes in which means that like you have
to give idea to access anything that the government has
decided is like sexually explicit, and that can just be
like a queer information in addition to like hardcore pornography, right,

(32:50):
And so that that's the thing is that it's like
it tips you over into these spaces that people think
are too much, and there is invested interest into thinking
that queer things or overtly sexual things, these things that
exist for no other purpose than having a good time,
like which is kind of like what's going on with
kink that's new and somehow decadent, Like it's a it's

(33:13):
a form of like modern decadence that we must uproot.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
In order to move forward.

Speaker 1 (33:19):
And it's very important to talk about the fact that
it always existed in order to show that like you
need to calm down and people are just gonna shag
you probably can't. It doesn't matter what draconian measures you
bring in do attempt to crack down on it.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
People are still going to keep doing it.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Like there's nothing that you can do about that, you know.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, this seems quite often to be a like I guess,
like a a rad a radical feminist like quote unquote
radical feminist critique of patriarchy that like all that all

(34:00):
at all or almost all sex with men is wrapped
up in the patriarchy and it, you know, and there
are these issues and all this stuff, but it always
just smacks of like puritanism to me. That I mean, like,
I'm not denying the patriarchy exists, nor am I denying

(34:20):
that it has incredible undue influence on personal and sexual
lives of people, but like it doesn't seem feminists to me,
to my understanding of feminism.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, you know, that's just another way of telling women
what to do.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
But like go off, you know, like I mean, yeah,
like I thought. The idea is that like, you know,
adult I mean any women, but especially adult women, can
you know, make decisions for themselves, and you know, we
can respect those. They may be dumb decisions, they may
be smart decisions. They may be better decisions that we
would make, but you know, or worse or whatever, but

(35:01):
they are you know, decisions. They have agency and if
you have you know, if you have agency, then you
know you should have the If if you have agency,
as feminism, Like the definition of feminism demands you believe
women have that. Then you can't just uh, you know,

(35:23):
you can't take that agency away when it comes to
things like this. People do things you may not like,
you may be uncomfortable with with their agency.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
You know.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
It's just it's the thing about like, you know, a
lot of age gaps, Like, yeah, there are some that
I find really weird when it's you know, like a
you know, people in their late forties dating like you know,
a twenty one year old. I would personally find that weird.
But you know, like people make people make their own
like you know, yeah, when you're an adult, you have agents,

(35:54):
like you're supposed to have agency, and I don't. That
doesn't mean that it is an influence by things. But
like every decision every in May, it's fine. Yeah, and
the liberal liberal feminism is not good in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
As a man, we need we need to be able
to hold space for people to make decisions that we
do not agree with.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
That's the thing.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
And you know, anything less than that, uh, you know,
like wow, Now, to be fair, like I'm not talking
about Nazis because they're not people. They're not allowed to
do things that I don't agree with. But you know,
you can do some things that I would not be
my choice sexually and you're still allowed to do it.
That's all, you know, I think that it is Also

(36:36):
there is something very specifically about sex that people think
that if it's happening, it means they have to do it.
And it's like, babe, it's not about you, right, you know,
like you don't have.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
To eat, You aren't you are doing half the things.
You aren't doing one one fifth of one percent of
the things that everyone is doing. No one is. That's
not how some of us have to get to sleep,
you know. So what there is a wide and vast
range of of of fine and normal consensual sexual practices

(37:07):
that range from just being like, you know, completely ace
to you know, like shout out to our friends, shout
out to to like orgies, to being in a poly
being in poly relationships, to like, you know, all the
you know, just everything. And it's like these are all
different like relationship arrangements and sexual you know, kinks or

(37:32):
fetishes or enjoyments or whatever you want to call them.
And yeah, you're not, like I'm not gay. Gay people
have sex all the time. That's good for them, but
like its like I just don't like.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
It doesn't have anything to do with us.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
It's not my business unless they want to, unless they
make it my business for like I guess, like you know,
public health reasons. I can't even think, you know, like
unless it unless it was non consensual or something like that.
It doesn't need It's not my bus. It's not anyone
else's business unless you want to share it with him.

(38:10):
And if you and your friends share and you talk
about sex all the time, that's great, but it's still
like but it's no but you know, it's no one
who doesn't want to know or you don't want to know.
It's not any of their business anyway. Yeah, all right,
enough of that ship. Let's talk about historical BDSM. So,
like briefly, the in the ancient world, we do have
UH surviving examples of it. They you can go to

(38:35):
uh the Oxford translations of of UH. It's called the
Electronic text Corpus of Sumerian Literature, and you can look
up the hymn to Innana and UH you can see
that UH. Not only did they talk about b BDSMU

(38:56):
style practices, these were ritualistic had a a nature both
for like the public good and uh for interacting with
the god, the goddess in Honna there, you know, talking
about there's a mesh net that she lets down. There's
punishment and moaning, but you have to you have to

(39:17):
enter into it, uh you know, in in in good
humor and in good faith. If you don't, you're doing
it wrong. It has parts of it has been quoted
as saying, uh imbube with pain and ecstasy, bringing about
initiation and journeys of altered states of consciousness, punishment, moaning, ecstasy,
lament and song participants exhausting themselves in weeping in grief.

(39:39):
So that is BDSM apparently of a sexual or apparent yes,
of a sexual but also ritualistic and uh religious way,
which wasn't all that unheard of because uh, there were
uh you know, ritual ritual flagellations in ancient Greece. They

(40:01):
had those two. That wasn't something that that the Midi
that medieval people just came up with on their own. Uh.
There's the Etruscan Tomb of the whipping we discussed, you know,
there there's a pulius there. There. There's a lot of
ways that people are inducted into the mysteries and the Kamasutra. Basically, folks,

(40:26):
there's a lot of the stuff, Yeah, a lot of
the stuff that survives in writing to us, and you know,
it would be very difficult for you know, these are
like six, five, six, seven, eight examples of just what
survived to us, like it if it survived to us
from that long ago, from we're talking all the way

(40:47):
back in like four thousand BCE like up to you know,
like through the ancient Greeks and Romans, like you know,
it's it's a it's a widespread practice that people knew about.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
It's this is.

Speaker 1 (41:00):
One of the first things you know that people were like, yeah,
let's write that down.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
At some point someone was like, hey, it feels I
get it. I get man, I get a fucking boner
whenever whenever I stub my toe, what oh my god,
you know, and you're just like, what the hell, And yeah,
it's that that realization the first person to ask to
be hit at, you know, like the freedom that that
had to like give them to like speak that into

(41:26):
the world. And they were like and somebody finally agreed
and they were like, yes, yep, that's.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Like but yeah, cuniform, baby, Like, we need to get
the ship down. Everybody needs to know about our freaky
little flogging and net party.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
You know, take your stylus and press it into that
wet clay and then get back on the fucking net.
Let's go. Yeah. Now, we are ostensibly a show about
the Middle Ages, so yeah, we're gonna spend the rest
of the time talking about medieval attestations of this. But

(42:00):
before we do, eleanor I have you know, I'm not
saying that everyone who enjoyed BDSM at the time was
into it solely because of this, but I do have
difficulties separating the two because, you know, how do we
talk about BDSM in within the contours of a heavily enforced, superstructural,

(42:26):
patriarchal religion that does directly teach women to be submissive
to men? Like there, it seems like there is some
undue influence in that regard.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
Oh yeah, absolutely, and so and we certainly see, you know,
in particularized works where it seems that people are really
enjoying themselves, you know, like this being used as a
way still of reinforcing particularized gender dynamics. However, what I

(42:59):
would say is that we also have lots of medieval
stuff for example, that shows us for that there are
people who are doing it who are of the same sex,
so you know, men who are monks.

Speaker 3 (43:11):
I'm talking about monks.

Speaker 1 (43:12):
It's monks, monks, right, It's monks who are flogging each
other and seem to be having a really nice time
about it. And we also see a lot of jedder
versions or like with the same thing, so women being
the ones doing the flogging to men. So yes, like
sometimes there are instances in which where this is just

(43:36):
seems like, oh yeah, well, what we're doing is an
incredibly extreme form of cultivating relationships with women as dominated.
But we also have lots of evidence for women as
dominate tours. And I mean, indeed, I think that when
we look at things like courtly loved literature, that's what

(43:57):
that is. You know, it doesn't necessarily need to be
about physical violence. You know, it could also be about
like forms of control and who is able to control
varying relationships, you know, and we do tend to see
in these areas women actually having a lot more control

(44:18):
than one would otherwise think.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that is you know, that
is good and I mean I think, you know, you
can't discount just you know, the general feelings that people
have about you know, have for these things, and that
they they you know that they wouldn't have had them regardless,

(44:41):
because I mean it seems like people have been having
them for a very long time. But you know, there
is just something about that as their no doubt, would
have been for the ancient Sumerians who would have lived
under a similar patriarchy. I mean, this one is differently
would have been differently enforced and differently felt because Ananos
a female goddess. But you know it's uh, no doubt

(45:04):
those those societal strictures were playing onto this to some degree. Yeah.
So so yeah, that brings us to folks, We are
back with a friend of the show, one mister Peter Abbalard,
and he got muse slash underage girlfriend, slash willing considual

(45:27):
partner Eloise eleanor what what were these two crazy kids
up to?

Speaker 3 (45:33):
And you know, God, they fucked so much.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
That so much sex Ablard and Eloise, like you know, notably,
but as part of it. One of the things that
they had going on, right is it especially when they
were having sex because That's the thing is like the
relationship is really front loaded with the sex, right, It's
like Alard becomes her teacher. Now, I mean talk about
problematic edge gap relationships, yes, talk about relationships that I

(46:00):
would argue in our context are one hundred percent like
not appropriate. I will say it every day. I don't
care how they're old they are. Don't shag your students,
you know, shout out to everyone.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
Else who teaches at university level.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Don't do that.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Please, don't get yourself put in charge of a student
so you can shag them. Yeah, I wish.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
I just really think you should do that, which is
what Abilard does. And so like you know, Abilard is
a bad man, Like I want.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
To make that clear.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
But they are shagging all the time. But they're not
supposed to be shagging obviously because they're unmarried and Abillard
is a member of the clergy, so he's not supposed
to be shagging because you know, everyone who teaches that
university has to be members.

Speaker 2 (46:41):
Of the clergy.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
So one of the things they do to cover up
the fact that they're shagging is Abilard will like hit
Eloise in front of other people all the time. Unfortunately,
a thing that is true about the medieval period is
there's rather a lot of hate think people as part
of the pedacultural experience. There's a lot more beating involved

(47:07):
with the schoolroom.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
I mean, like it's weird. Ask your parents about it.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
They used to get beat a lot, very strange.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah, there's a lot of like there's a lot bound
up in spanking and whipping of children and just yeah,
it's yeah, yeah there. I am not I am not
in any way well versed enough in these things to

(47:39):
go into that, but I mean there's a lot there.
And if you've ever been around culture that like tries
to reinforce spanking and stuff like that, it's pretty clear
how fucking weird and creepy it is.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and basically that's just like out there, right,
So it isn't weird that able Art would be hitting Eloise.
But what they're specifically attempting to do is mask the
fact that they're having a sexual relationship by doing this
in front of other people, because it's like, oh, well,
this way, it will seem like Abilard thinks Alouise is
an idiot and therefore wouldn't want to shag her at

(48:14):
Eloise and Abialard both talk about this and there they
talk about the blows being as tender as any kisses,
as sweet as any kisses. Like for them, they're they're
like also getting off on it. They're like getting off
on the fact that they're having this this really charged
and violent back and forth in front of other people.

(48:39):
And so there's there is also kind of like a
display element to this, you know, like a little bit
of posturing that's happening, and you know this will all
come to a head eventually with Abilard get his dick
and balls cut off. So I mean, actually I don't
know about his balls, but his dick, which will you know,
invert this in an interesting way. But know, Eloise for

(49:01):
years talks about how horny she still is for able
art and how much she loved that shit and how
it's great, and Albard is like, I don't have a
dick and balls anymore.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
Stop talking to me like this.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
I cannot talk about this anymore. And she's like, no,
do you remember like that time?

Speaker 3 (49:19):
And he's like, I swear to God, stop it.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
You know, I have a phantom dick, woman, do you
understand what a phantom pain is? Now? What about a
phantom erection, a phantom boner, no.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
The phantom blue balls, Oh no, phantom fasso cones.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
I do not feel bad for Abelard. He was a
piece of shit. However, Jesus fucking christ Man never just
killed like just kill someone like, ah, just kill him
like they're like at that point you are doing that's
a torture fetish like period like that, that's what that is.
You were just I mean, and the and they would
have been like, yeah, so what but yeah still fuck off.

(49:59):
Uh yeah, that is uh Abelard and Eloise, you know, which, uh,
you know, I think we can see that there was
a heavy religious aspect to this. There was a very
uh creepy aspect to these relationships, as there were with
many uh with many many relationships even today and and

(50:23):
even worse in the past in a lot of ways.
But also that uh you know, they were both really
into this until one of them couldn't be anymore and
was very sad about it, which you know, I feel
for him in that one respect anyway. Yeah, speaking of

(50:44):
uh male monks who really just you know, got in
so much trouble and had to be disciplined so so often. Uh,
Guibert of Nogant, who was actually a contemporary and uh
student of one hilde Guard of being another friend of

(51:05):
the show, but eleanor uh not, we're not talking about
Hildy today. What what did our good friend Guibert do?

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Uh? So Homeboys? So he's a Benedictine monk, right, And
also like this is an interesting one where you can
go hmmm, because he had like an interesting relationship with.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
His mother as well.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Like he was like, we'll just say, you know, I
don't like to pathologize kink. I think that people can
just be a kinky.

Speaker 3 (51:29):
Because they want to.

Speaker 1 (51:30):
But you know, like he just have like a super
kind of overbearing mom that he writes about all the time.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Uh. And and like it's just like he's like Skinner
in uh he's looking out the and and Psycho he's
looking out the window and he's looking up at the
house and he's like, no, mother, I won't wear that
sailor suit again. What are you talking about? No? And
all the other monks are like Jesus fucking Christ.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, So like she does this like a number on Homeboy,
and like he's kind of like isolated and he gets
he gets like a private tutor from her, and the
tutor beats him a lot, okay, and you'd be like, Okay,
that's bad. But let me tell you what homeboy writes
about it. So direct quote, however oppressive he was, my

(52:23):
master made it clear to me in all kinds of
different ways that he loved me no less than he
loved himself. As for me, though I was somewhat clumsy
and shy for my age, okay, like Bella from fucking
like Twilight, I had such a liking for him, stripped
as my poor little skin may have been by his
many whiplashes, that I obeyed him, not out of fear,

(52:47):
as would generally be the case in relationships like these,
but I have some curious feeling of love which overwhelmed
my whole being and made me forget all his harshness.

Speaker 2 (53:00):
Buddy dog Alfoy, I'm not pathologizing anything, and I don't
like to read into like every monk was gay, every ab,
every nun was gay. No, they weren't. They weren't all gay.
Like a lot of them had extremely sincere religious beliefs.
A lot of them were just like, I have to
be here otherwise they're going to drag me back or

(53:22):
my dad will kill me or whatever. But I mean,
like when they're right in this shit, come on, like,
just oh on on that that is that is one
hundred percent of a sexual nature. Nature that it's one
a person not only justifying like the abuse, the actual
abuse that they suffered, but justifying the fact that they

(53:43):
get off on it, which I mean it was not
I don't I'm not saying that's wrong. I don't think
that's wrong. It we Bear clearly was a kid when
this was happening to him. But at the same time,
like it's very clear that he was like, oh my god,
this is so awesome. I like, please, I'm such a
naughty boy.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
And you know, he needs you to know about it, right,
Like this is his little autobiography. He's telling you his
memoir and he's like, think you gotta understand about me?

Speaker 3 (54:11):
Is I loved getting beaten by my tutor.

Speaker 1 (54:14):
It's like, okay, dude, Like, you know, leaving a lasting
record of your life and this is the thing that
you really want people to know.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Fine, fine, Like you're not that you studied with one
of the greatest geniuses who ever lived, one of the
true few true polymeats in the history of the world, Hildegard,
not that you experienced ecstatic visions that people believed you
were one of the few men who just really got
to get away with this stuff, like in the way

(54:44):
that women did. And Nope, it's this guy was beating
me with one hand while I was receiving the beating
also with one hand, like like every yeah he's being
jerked off on while he's jerked like it.

Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, he's loving it. He's loving life.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
And you know, good for him, you know, and I
must respect it. I've got to respect I got you know,
I got no, I got no you know, no shame
in that, dude. But like, it really is funny that
you were just like yeah that you know that one,
Like Okay, that's that's.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
What we're that's what posterity is gonna remember. Cool. And
then I mean, you know, there are famous tales that
would have been pop culture for them, they were just
passed to us as like myth and legend. Now, but uh,
Saint Sebastian famously of the getting shot with a bunch
of a tweak getting shot with so so many arrows

(55:41):
and being so so almost naked, and then uh Saint Barbara,
who uh you know, she of the having breast removed
and then growing back as a miracle.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Oh yeah, yeah, so like you got a bunch of this, right,
So we I love to talk about Saint Sebastian with
us because it's like one of the few, like kind
of over.

Speaker 3 (56:00):
Queer spaces, right.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Like, so we come to these readings of religious art
in particular ways, right, because the thing of it is
you might look at these and be like, Jesus, this
seems incredibly horny. Maybe I'm just being a modern person,
but like you need to calm down, because everyone is
always horny, right.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
I know.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
I'm always talking about that particular quote that we have
from that guy in the sixteenth century who is a
convert to Protestantism, and he's like, yeah, I like Protestantism
because I was always so horny and turned on whenever
I looked at statues of the Virgin Mary in church. Yeah,
and it always just so you know, like it was
really unholy of me because I was like so busy
getting horny for it. So we we know from their

(56:41):
own mouths that this stuff turns then on. So when
you see pictures of Saint Sebastian tied to pull full
of arrows being like, h like you and you're like
that seems pretty horny. Yeah it is. So there's this
really great uh Saint Barbara.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
I mean, like the the St. Sebastian wants are mirrored,
they're everywhere.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
But there's like this like fourteenth century Saint Barbara alter
that was made by this guy, Master Franca, and it's
in the National Museum at Finland now and Sat Barbara
is just like tied up to this pole and like
titties are out and also like armpit height. You know,
she's got the pot belly, she's got it all right,

(57:23):
and she's just like how hum well, everyone just starts
like getting ready to cut her titties off right like
while everyone's like beating her.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
And she's just got this completely placid expression.

Speaker 2 (57:37):
And it's ah, this is so nice.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
Finally, finally, right. And we see this also really similarly,
especially with the Saint Agatha of Sicily. I paid good
money for a picture of Saint Agatha of Sicily in
my book getting this done to her. So she's another
one where her titties get cut off. Don't worry, Saint
Peter shows up and they grow back.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
I wouldn't I wouldn't wory no oh no, no, I just
I was the way the way I paid good money
for that, and it was like you were an art collector.
You're like, all right, so I'll take them, I'll take that,
and go I'll take this, and then that one of
the titties being cut off, please delivered directly to my months. Sorry,
you know, I mean.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
One hundred percent like this is what people are like
asking though, like you know the people who are like,
oh yes, and then I'll have a Saint Barbara, right,
It's like it's illicit pornography, right, It's.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Like, yeah, oh yes, it's an.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
Excuse at the very least to look at a picture
of a beautiful woman with her titty out, you know,
and then no one can get mad at you. And
then above that, it's an excuse to look at beautiful
women with their titties out who are also experiencing pain,
we're experiencing violence. But both Saint Barbara and Saint Agatha

(58:47):
in these situations are just like oh ho hum right
and now okay.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Absolutely, oh oh oh bother.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Like one of the reasons that they are they have
these placid expressions is that they're they're willing to suffer
for Jesus, right, you know, like obviously they' they're willing
to suffer further space or they're getting off on it
because they're having an ecstatic Yay, Yeah, it's happening. I'm
finally dying for Jesus like I always wanted to. But
we are almost certainly being invited to take this sexually,

(59:18):
you know, to think about ourselves as the tortures, or indeed,
think about ourselves as the saint, like put ourselves in
their shoes and experience this ecstasy.

Speaker 3 (59:28):
As a result of violence and pain, right.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
You know, because we are being told to understand that
that is what is happening, one way or another. Now
you're not supposed to sexualize it, but you know, these
people are getting off on pictures of the Virgin Mary.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
So I'm afraid they were drawing the vagina wounds of Christ.
Like there is no way to read that other than
people sublimating their own sexual desires at these images, at
these images of what is supposed to be to them,
the perfect man and he's buff and he looks great,

(01:00:07):
and you know he's just rippling muscles up on the cross,
and you're like, there's no way that those two things
are not coming together. And what these people are doing
is drawing a form of pornography that is acceptable for
like that that is like that is acceptable for them
to do at the time because it is a form

(01:00:29):
of religious acceptable religious expression and fervance.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Yeah exactly, And you can read it how you want.
That's that is the point of audiences, and that's what
gives it plausible deniability, and that's why these images were
able to be made, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Yeah exactly. Yeah, Yeah, it's uh, folks, Uh, you know,
it's a rich tapestry. We got a couple of more things,
uh before Well, we've got one that that elare really
wants to get to. We'll say it for a last
So let's talk a little bit about you know, the
Bediism and the so called chivalric tradition. So, I mean

(01:01:07):
there is stuff here. There is love service, there is
you know, doing these acts of selflessness, sometimes public humiliation
sometimes you know, things like that. How how are these
how do you medievals see these two things as as
tied together in any way or do?

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
I mean, certainly we do. And I mean one of
the big ways of looking at this is you know,
again I'm always going on about dan More. I know
you're all tired of hearing it, but I'm going to
do it anyway. You know. One of the big things
that they talk about, specifically in Courtly Loved tropes is
this idea of suffering and suffering is being innate to

(01:01:51):
love and as indeed being necessary for love. And more particularly,
it talks about the suffering that men need to experience
in order to experience love. And to an extent, what
that is about is kind of like proving to a
woman that she should put herself into a situation where
she kind of faces appropriate appropriation or you know, damaging

(01:02:15):
her own reputation, which can be very dangerous for married women. Right,
So you need to prove to women that you're willing
to to, you know, go through it in order to
win somebody's love. Right. And so we see this then
play out all the time in varying ways, but we
see it, for example, in our theory Ona, right, and

(01:02:39):
this comes up in particularly in particularly this comes up
in particular in the Night of the.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Cart which is the first.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Story if memory serves, where in Lancelot and Guenevere become
lovers and the entire thing Hinges repeatedly on Lancelot's humiliation.
There's not anything physical. It's not about you know, him
being like beaten by Gwenevere or whipped by Gwenevere or anything.
But it's about the one hundred percent flat out humiliation

(01:03:13):
he's willing to go through for her. So, for example,
it's called a night of the cart because you know, basically,
Guenevere gets kidnapped and then this dwarf is like, I
know where she is and i'll take you to her,
but you have to ride in this cart. And you're
supposed to understand that that's bad, right, It's bad that
someone should ride in a cart, because if you're a knight,
you don't ride in a cart. Knights ride on a horse.

(01:03:37):
And indeed, when the dwarf says all this, GWayne is
there with Lancelot, and Gwen is like, I'm not gonna
ride no fucking cart, right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
I'm here for plot. I'm here to confirm the plot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
So we understand that Lancelot is hot for Guenevere because
he's willing to ride in the cart, right, He's willing
to be shamed in order.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
To experience her love. And you know, like blah, blah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Blah, go through it, lots of tests, walk over a
bridge of swords, things like that, right, and then like
at the end, he's supposed to come back and fight
a duel in a year, because that's what you do
in our theory. Ona and Gueneverea goes, if you really
love me, you'll lose the duel, which would be like humiliating, right,
And then he's like, okay, girl, for you, I will like,

(01:04:22):
I'll absolutely throw this fight. I'm willing to be humiliated
in front of all my homies. But then halfway through
she decides that like she's done with that shit and
is like, oh, actually beat.

Speaker 3 (01:04:30):
Him up anyway. And then he like wins with ease.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
So and this is kind of one of this itself
is a way of talking about courtly love as a
trope and courtly love relationships because in order to win
the ultimate victory, right, you have to submit yourself to
the woman in question. So you submit yourself to the woman,
You submit yourself to the degradation, you submit yourself to

(01:04:54):
the humiliation. And by those means, you know, as we
were talking about earlier, like by being a hot light sub,
you actually have the power and the relationship because you're winning.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
At the end of the day, you get this relationship
with guenever.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
And you see this come up over and over and
over in courtly love literature. This this willingness to subjugate
with itself, this willingness to be humiliated in public. And
then that is how you know you have a really
good relationship, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Mm hmmm hmm, yeah, yeah, there's you know, there's no
no way to read that other than you know, do this,
do this for me now, and yeah, and embarrass yourself
in front of your friends. And he's like, yes, ma'am, yeah,

(01:05:48):
I mean, I guess any any time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
We could also like do I guess in here a
shout out to like the Aristotle pony play thing too,
which is important. So it's like there is it's very popular.

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
There's a very popular medieval story, you know, because like
Aristotle's on the books as being Alexander the greats Tutor.
Medieval people love this, so they they like to h
they like very particularly to write about this time when
he must have been in his service, and there's the
story that goes that like, uh, while this happens, like

(01:06:26):
Aristotle is trying to like tell Alexander the Great like
don't be too in love with your white Phyllis, uh,
which had no problem, and he's like, you know, because
you know if you get too into sex, then you
know that would be bad and you'll just be thinking
about that all the time. Right. So anyway, uh, Phillis

(01:06:48):
gets pissed off and she's like, Okay, well you know
what is I'm gonna do. I'm gonna make Aristotle horny
for me, and that's going to teach him an important
lesson question mark. Anyway, so like eventually he's like a
down bad. He definitely wants to get with Phyllis, and
Phyllis is like, yeah, okay to do the basement, like

(01:07:09):
you know, I needed to do, uh, the the courtly
love ritual wherein you debase yourself for me. So like
basically she's like a come to me wearing like a
little saddle and a harness and carry me around like
like a horse, and then I know I'll know that
you're serious. And Aristotle's like yes, ma'am.

Speaker 2 (01:07:29):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
And anyway, so here's Phyllis riding Aristotle down the hall
like a pony with the little whip and then they
run into Alexander the Great, and Alexander the Great is like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Question, is is this part of the is this part
of the nose sex thing? And he's like fuck, He's like,
fuck your boyfriend and leave me alone.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
So but basically, like what happens here is that in
the story, Aristotle goes yeah, because you know, actually, this
proves I'm right, Because if even an old dude like
me who knows better can get this horny for your
wife that he's doing pony play in the hallway, wouldn't
a hot young things such as you be even more

(01:08:19):
likely to get too carried away and end up doing
pony play. And then we all learn an important lesson.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Right, which is that Alexander can watch you doing pony
play with his wife and not care for some reason.
Who's to say why though? Who's to say? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
Yep, all right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
And last, but not least, I think Eleanor's favorite thing here,
maybe we have a hell fresco in the city of Bologna.
I believe it is from about the year fourteen to
ten by who we got Giovanni da the fuck I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
Giovanni, Yeah, it is by Giovanna de Modina.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
There yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
So I got a blog about this over on my website.
And the reason I have a blog about this is
because I got so fucking angry because, uh, we were
in Bologna and I was trying to see this hell
fresco and your girls a good person who listens when
churches ask you not to take pictures, right. So one
of the ways that the Basilica in Bologna is making

(01:09:26):
money is by charging admission to go see this really
good hell fresco. Now it's technically called the Chapel of
the Magei because they're like, would you like to see
the paintings of the Madge? And I'm like, I'll no, bitch,
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Want to see the I want to see hell. Everyone.
They have two lines, everyone here for the hell painting
and everyone here for everything else, and one of them
is empty.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
So you need to pay money to go in to
go see this thing, and you're not supposed to take
pictures of it, and you know that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
I'll go stare at it for twenty minutes. I don't
really give a shit.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
And then when we were there, I was like, you
know what, fine, Like, obviously they're selling little pamphlets of it. Well,
just buy the little pamphlet in order to get the picture.
But the thing is there are all kinds of sins
that are being portrayed in this hell fresco. You get
venial sins or worldly sins. Especially at the top there's
kind of like pictures of heretics things like that. And
what you got to understand about this fresco as well,
is that, like you can pick out the people who

(01:10:18):
are in it, Like the people looking at this would
be like, oh yeah, like there's our cardinal and stuff
like that, right, But down the bottom are the seven
Deadly sins, and the seven deadly sins like get you
further into hell. And down in the bottom right corner
more particularly, there are the lustful and the lustful stuff

(01:10:38):
is so incredibly horny that even if you buy the
fucking pamphlet, the Catholic Church are like, I'm sorry, you're not. Nope,
you know what what part? No, Like they've got zoomed
in bits of like every other bit of like every
other sin. Right, They're like, oh yeah, here's like the
guys who are the uh, the gloss and they're getting

(01:11:01):
their eyes gouged out while you eat a chicken, which
is very funny. I like that a lot, but it's
like the lustful stuff is so incredibly over the top
horny that they won't let you.

Speaker 3 (01:11:12):
See pictures of it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
And so it's like you get, you know, the really
calm and stuff where it's like, you know, the sodomites
who are being spit roasted and looking at each other.
But in particular, there's this woman with the lustful and
she's like breaking the fourth wall. She's looking directly at you.
This is like a life sized painting of a woman

(01:11:36):
and she is got these snakes coiled around her that
are barbed that all the lustful do. And it's like, oh, yeah,
you see you like being tied up? Well, how about
in hell? And she's being choked by a demon and
she's looking directly at you, and she's just like, I
love this shit.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
It is so fun. I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
Like I mean, she's literally smiling, she's just beaming from
ear to ear and just looking at you being like,
hell yeah, brother, love choking play. And it is like
intensely overwhelmingly, like shockingly fucking horny, to the point that
like you were just you were not allowed to buy

(01:12:21):
a picture of this. But I did buy a picture
of this, right. I spent twenty five I spent twenty
five quid. I went to find a hi res image
of this. Uh, and indeed it is. It's now like
my background on my laptop. I'm looking at it right
now in order to like look at it and write
about it. But you know, it's and it's not just her.

(01:12:43):
There's like one horny chick who's kind of like down
like being as she's sort of like tied up by
the spiny snakes, and she's looking over her shoulder like
ooh at like one of the demons, like oh yeah,
you like that shit. There's like all these people kind
of like getting poked in the bum and they're.

Speaker 2 (01:12:58):
All like one of these guys is literally being spit roasted,
and he is he's first of all, wearing glasses. Second
of all, he's so happy about this, and third of
all is staring like a demon or perhaps another like
human who's being tortured in the face and they're just like, ah,
this is fucking great. I love this shit.

Speaker 1 (01:13:18):
And it's just so funny because it's like all the
other tortures are just kind of like what much more like,
oh yeah, these people seem to be being tortured, lustful,
are having the time of their deaths. They absolutely love
so happy, they are just so horny about it, and
like all of it is just BDSM right. They're not
showing as suffering, They're showing as being absolutely ecstatic. And

(01:13:39):
I don't know how you relate to this in any
way other than this is like mad horny stuff. And
I'm sorry, but the church agrees with me, and that's
why they won't let you have a picture of it.
The church is like, I know what you're doing. You're
looking at these people who are being like mad horny,
and I'm like, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:13:55):
I am.

Speaker 1 (01:13:56):
But when I do it, I am oracle. Okay, it's
I'm doing it for I'm I'm actually doing this for
the culture.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
So respect this is this is art.

Speaker 2 (01:14:09):
This is art criticism, damn it. Oh my god. Uh, folks,
that is a lot about b d S. M antiquity
in the Middle Ages and even today. Uh. But we
hope you learned a lot, because uh there's a lot
there and it is uh it is fun to uh

(01:14:32):
to try and impact all this because you know, we
know that people have been enjoying BDSM for a very
long time. And uh, you know, sometimes anana just lets
down her fishing net and you gotta climb into it
and uh get ritually fucked Otherwise, Uh, you know, the

(01:14:53):
last the priests of Mardook are gonna be real fucking
pissed about this. You you guys better get in here
and be happy about it, or we're all going to
be in trouble and there's not going to be any
good crops this year. So get in the net. God
damn it, folks, the DSM has been around for a
long time. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Regardless of

(01:15:15):
if you are a participant or not much with everything else,
you shouldn't solely care about it because of how it
will affect you. But if people cut this out of
you know, culture and pop culture and everything like that,
you know they're going to be cutting a lot of
other stuff too, and eventually they'll get to something you

(01:15:36):
do actually care about, and yeah, that is not you know,
shouldn't be selfish about it. But if you need a
bigger reason other than it's bad to do that, there
you go. Because eventually they're going to get to the
point where they're like, yeah, you can't, you have to
you know, only missionary and you're like, fuck, god.

Speaker 3 (01:15:55):
Damn it, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:15:59):
Yeah anyway, Yeah, that's that's what we got for today, folks. Please,
you know, thank you for listening, Thank you for checking
us out. Please subscribe to the Patreon if you're interested,
check out our series on the Crusades. Yeah, eleanor what
else you got in the meantime other than your.

Speaker 1 (01:16:24):
Yeah, what do I have going on? Yeah, I've once
a gotten done a bunch of other people's podcasts, so
those will be coming up. Look for me soon, I think,
not yet on Cancel Me daddy. Uh so that that's
that's coming up, But I mean, for now, you can

(01:16:45):
obviously check out Welcome to the Crusades. Obviously check out
my book The Once in Future Sex, especially if you
want to see some of these horny.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
Pictures we were just talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:16:53):
Ye got him, we got him in there. But yeah,
you know, I'm on the socials at Going Medieval. Yeah
you know I'm around in the area.

Speaker 2 (01:17:02):
Okay, Yeah, that's all right, folks. You can find me
normal places. You can find me at Luca's Amazing on
the socials and you can find my I'll show people's
story of the Old Republic. If you want to hear
me talk about Star Wars, but yeah, thank you very
much for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
Bye.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
By