July 1, 2025 • 55 mins
Hi,
On this episode of Where's Your Bump At?, I'm finally sitting down with Midwife Meghan to talk through the massive breastfeeding debate and unpacking all of the animosity and pressure around it. I also welcome back Dr Golly & Steph Claire Smith to share their insight on breastfeeding from our prior conversations.
This is a huge topic and I wanted to make it a safe & accessible space for everyone to hear all perspectives around this & I hope I've done just that.
All my love,
Anna xxx
Use code WYBA20 at www.iltutto.com.aufor 20% off full-price items.
(T&Cs: 20% off full price items only, cannot be used with other promotions. Valid until August 31, 2025. Excludes already discounted items, furniture packs and gift cards. Only at iltutto.com.au)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wanting to have kids is a huge life decision. But
once you're ready to embark on that journey, what do
you actually need to know? This podcast is the community
you never knew you needed from mums and mums to be.
We're about to embark on this learning journey together and
it's going to be real. It's going to be raw
and a completely non judgmental space. You're listening to Where's
(00:24):
your Bump Hat? And this is Anna macavoy Staples. I'm
going to be interviewing experts in the field so that
all of our burning questions can be answered, from understanding
our cycle to knowing what is the best time to conceive,
and so much more. We'll get into the difference between
(00:46):
natural verse c section births, strange pregnancy symptoms and everything
in between. Hello and welcome to another episode of Where's
Your Bump Hat. My name is Anna Macavoye Staples, and
on today's episode we are talking all things breastfeeding. Now,
this is a very polarizing topic and something that I
(01:07):
have been very mindful with when talking about. So on
today's episode, we have midwife Megan, who is a lactation consultant.
She is very pro breastfeeding, which is lovely. She tells
us about all of the great things to do with
breastfeeding and also bottle feeding as well, so we get
a really nice perspective on both of those. Then I
(01:28):
ask Steph clair Smith about her experience with breastfeeding. She
was on an earlier episode, and we talked to her
about how she found breastfeeding, how long she breastfed for,
which is super interesting. And finally we get Dr Golli's perspective.
He's a pediatrician and I actually asked him a question
(01:50):
and he corrected my wording, which I really appreciated because,
as I've said, I don't know it all, I'm still learning,
and I think it's so important the wording we use
around breastfeeding. So you'll hear that he corrects me, So
keep an eye out for that one. But overall, this
is a really great educational episode. There is no right
or wrong when it comes to breastfeeding. It's all about
(02:12):
just feeding our babies and nourishing them. And as we've
heard from our experts, the number one priority when it
comes to breastfeeding is the mum's health and well being.
So let's hear from our experts and start with midwife Megan. Hey, guys,
(02:33):
just quickly jumping into this episode before it starts. If
you follow my socials, then you would have seen that
I am officially a mum. It has been incredible. It's
been so crazy and so life changing, and there's just
no words to describe it. Swayede is now four weeks old.
(02:54):
I'm loving mum life. There's been so many highs and lows.
Funnily enough, I was actually at a CAA the other
day and someone reminded me that the newborn phase only
goes for six weeks, so I only have two more
weeks left of the newborn phase, and I'm so sad
it's already going so quickly and I just want to
slow down time. So just lapping up the rest of
(03:17):
my maternity leave before I come back, and then I
cannot wait to share my birth story with you guys.
Funnily enough, I'm recording this segment from Swede's nursery from
my favorite item in the nursery, which is the ill
Twuto chair. You guys recommended this item to me so much,
and I really want to repay the favor because, let
(03:38):
me tell you, this is the comfiest chair you will
ever sit on. I have the Louis Electric Recliner Glider
nursery chair in Tope Teddy for all of you who
have been asking which one I got, And honestly, ever
since Swede has come into the world, I have not
left this chair, whether it's breastfeeding, napping. It's really such
(04:02):
a mumhack. It's so comfortable. And they have the latte
shade now available across il Tuto's best selling styles, so
make sure you check those out for all the mums
to be out there. It's honestly such a lifesaver, especially
on those late night feeds. So ill Tuto have a
(04:24):
little something for you guys. We wanted to share the
good stuff with you guys first, so they are giving
you twenty percent off with code WYBA twenty and you'll
find that at il tuto dot com dot au. This
is valid until August thirty first, so getting quick. I
promise you you're not going to regret this purchase. It's my
(04:44):
favorite nursery staple. Also, just a little point that the
twenty percent off doesn't work on packs or gift cards,
but I'm going to put all the links and t's
and c's in our show notes for you, okay. And lastly,
if that's not exciting enough, ill Tuto have let me
in on a lit little secret. I spoke before about
how I have the Louis Electric Recliner in Teddy Flees,
(05:06):
but they are getting upgraded. There are three new colors
coming and honestly, they're so beautiful, so keep an eye
out for them. And also, I can't give too much away,
but let's just say there is some corduroy coming soon. Also,
last little update from me before this episode begins. Since
this is our breastfeeding episode, I have started my breastfeeding journey.
(05:29):
It has been so successful, which I'm so grateful for.
There's definitely been some painful moments and sleepless nights, but overall,
I'm just so grateful to be able to breastfeed Swede
and I'm loving it. Something I was not expecting was
the milk shooting out of my boobs, but maybe we
need to touch on that more in depth in season two.
(05:51):
So enjoy this episode, guys. I hope you love it
as much as I love talking to all of our
incredible experts. But anyway, that's all from me. Enjoy this
episode and cannot wait for season two and to be
back giving you all the motherhood updates. Today, I am
(06:14):
joined by the lovely lactation consultant AD midwife Megan.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Hello, Hi Anna, how are you doing.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I'm doing really well. It's so nice to officially meet you.
We've spoken on Instagram and you are so incredibly knowledgeable
when it comes to breastfeeding, so I needed to get
you on this podcast, so let's jump right into it.
There's so much as a mum to be that I
have no idea about when it comes to breastfeeding, and
(06:43):
I feel like there's this huge debate whether to breastfeed
or bottle feed your baby, So let's jump into that.
Why do you think that breastfeeding versus formula feeding is
such a huge topic?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
To be honest, do you know in you know?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
You contacted me through my introduction video on Instagram, and
I say this is a non judgmental page, like I
support all moms. I don't have any personal view about
the way you feed your baby. It's about your choices
and that you are supported in your choices. The way
(07:19):
a mother should feed is how she wants to feed.
It is really nobody else's business. But I believe in
mothers making informed choices, so you have all the information
laid out and then.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You choose what is best for you.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So just to start off, I just don't judge any
mother on how they feed. And you know, on my
page I always say let's not judge each other because
definitely I think within the mother's sphere there can be
a lot of judgment about what another mother is doing,
and really we need to be more supportive of each other.
(07:57):
So to go back to the formula.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Versus breastfeat and why why is this a big deal?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Like why is there so much complex emotions?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And so I would say the thing is that actually
there are a lot of mums who actually want to
breastfeed and then are unable to and that's where the
backlash comes from, because women are not supported enough on
their feeding journeys. So women are told Antonitaly when they're pregnant,
(08:29):
breastfeeding is amazing, you should do this, X, Y and Z,
here's why you should do this. And then they have
their baby and they're not supported well in hospital, and
then they're not supported in the community and so if
anything's going wrong, and unless they have access sometimes privately
to lactation consultants or depending on what their community services
(08:49):
are like, they may then not be successful in achieving
their personal feeding goals. And then that really, of course
those mums are going to feel upset guilty. We know
those mums who plan to breastfeed and are unable to
are more likely to suffer from poor mental health. Eight
(09:10):
in ten of those mums will suffer with their mental health,
and so that really is probably where this kind of
intense discussion and backlash comes from about with breastfeeding and
why there's this people coming from opposing sides about it
(09:30):
when really it's not a competition.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Feeding isn't a competition.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I think you're so right in what you said, like
you know, as we said, non judgmental space, but also
just letting people do them and what's what's right for
one person isn't going to be right for the next.
And like even the other day, I obviously I'm heavily
pregnant at the moment, and a lady who I had
never met before said I hope you're going to breastfeed,
(09:57):
and I was like, there's so much pressure, so much pressure,
and like I would obviously love to breasted but I'm
also super aware that it can be really challenging and
it's not possible for some mums or you know, they
can be difficulties. And that's why I think, like this
conversation is so great because we shouldn't be judgmental.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know why people say this
sort of stuff to pregnant mums.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
This is ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Do you know. I when I had a home birth
with my baby, and I was a really senior midwife
at the time in Nottingham, and every single person at
work who I said I was having a homebirth for
my first baby had something negative to say to me,
like not to do it, there was going to be
an emergency, all this stuff, and I had a successful
(10:45):
home birth. It was beautiful, hard work birth is hard work,
but it was beautiful. And I think there's so much
fear mongering that takes place when you're pregnant and your
hormones are so primed and you're so up and you're
so the potential for anxiety so much greater. And so
then I think when people talk about feeding, do you
know feeding can go beautifully as well?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Atn't like we all say.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Like, oh, it may not work, but it may also work,
like you may also meet your goals, Like if you
want to breastfeed, you know, it may work out beautifully.
Your baby may latch up birth, you never have trauma,
They gain weight beautifully, and that's it. It's not complex,
you know for millennia, like we have been fed. We
(11:30):
would be fed by the breast, right, we would be
extinct if it was that hard to do, because you know,
sometimes we might think with anything that we want to do,
oh but what if it doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
But we also have to remember like, oh but what
if it does?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah? Absolutely, And I think it is really important that
you brought that up because I personally want to go
into the birth and then the breastfeeding kind of journey
with a really positive outlook and kind of try to
manifest that positive of experience as opposed to freaking so
much on the negatives. But again trying to get all
(12:06):
of the information and then make a judgment based on that.
I mean, we've all heard the saying breast is best. Yeah,
what do people often misunderstand about that quote?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think the whole breast is best kind of again
plays into this competitive breast is best means you're the
best mother, you're the you know you're the best, and
you're better than someone else. But actually, again, the way
you feed your baby is not a competition. I guess
(12:42):
one thing to say, Anna is right, breast milk is
ultimately is made for your baby. So it's human milk
for a human baby. We are the only species that
feeds our young via another animals milk, and so I
would say that human milk is made for a human
(13:05):
baby for a reason. But with the slogan breast is best,
I think it's just so misunderstood, and then you know
there's fed is best.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I personally believe supported is best.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
So now that is supported in whatever they want to do,
and supported to the nth degree, like supported.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Till the cows come home, till the cows come home Jesus.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But they're supported. Just women should be supported. We're not
supported enough in society. We're definitely not supported enough in motherhood,
and society really isn't set up for mums, and that
genuinely makes me emotional to think about. But the beginning
part is obviously about feeding, and so I truly believe
(13:57):
that we need to have more support, more supported in
the home hospitals, more supporting the community, more antenatal education
about breastfeeding, because the more you know about how to
get breastfeeding off to a great start, the better it
will be.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Because we know.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
That really you have around five to seven days to
establish a milk supply and after that time it's going
to be an uphill battle, and a lot of mums
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So a lot of mums don't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Actually, you know, if your baby won't latch, if you've
got nipple trauma, then actually maybe hand express instead or
pump instead, because nipple trauma comes from the compression of
the baby's mouth on your nipple, So the nipple isn't
coming to the soft back palate, it's hitting the hard palate.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So if you pump, that won't happen, so it won't
hurt your.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Breast, but you will maintain and establish a milk supply.
So then when you're ready to work on your latch
or maybe you have a tongue TI divided, it means
that you have a milk supply there to play with.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You have choices.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
There's so much to unpack. Firstly, I would just want
to kind of take it back and ask you, what
are the core benefits of a mother who can breastfeed.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So for the mum, a reduction in an ovarian cancer,
a reduction in breast cancer. So for every twelve months
you breastfeed with breast cancer, you reduce your chance of
getting breast cancer significantly, and even more significantly if you
have the I never pronounce this right, but the baraka
the Brocca gene, the way you're more predisposed to getting
(15:33):
breast cancer if you breastfeed. Every twelve months you breastfeed,
it reduces Now I don't know off the top of
my head, but it could be like twenty percent every
twelve months you breastfeed, so it's really significant. It reduces
the risk of getting and type two diabetes for the mum.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
It reduces the risk of heart disease.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
For the mum. It reduces the risk of developing high
blood pressure later in life for the mum.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
If we think about.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Breastfeed, you know, specifically talking about the month for a second,
If we think about, okay, what our bodies are made
for and how to explain this, If we produce milk
and our breasts, it was always meant to leave our breasts,
our bodies were designed for milk, for us, for women
(16:18):
to make milk and it to leave our body.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And you know, everything in your body is so interlinked.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So something might happen for a specific reason and that
creates this chain reaction, and that chain reaction that's.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The same with breastfeeding.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So one thing where you could look at this is
when if you breastfeed after birth, immediately after birth, it
reduces your risk of blood loss. And that's because when
you breastfeed, you release oxytocin, the happy love hormone, and
that contracts smooth muscles, so it contracts your uterus and
reduces the blood loss because it's closing that wound inside
(16:56):
you where your placenta has been.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And so again that's the interlinking that we needed to
release more oxytocin.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
So your baby needs to breastfeed, you bleed less, So
everything in your body has a knock on effects. So
that's where breastfeeding comes into play for mums and then
with babies. The main things really are immune support lifelong
reduction in chronic illnesses.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
There has been people.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Get a bit a little bit angry about this, but
there is some evidence for a moderate improvement in IQ
with breastfeeding and then a reduction in allergies, obesity, diabetes.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, there are a lot, there are a lot
lots of benefits.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, what would we say on the opposing end, are
some benefits of bottle feeding.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
The benefit to formula milk is that if a mother
can't breastfeed, or if there's an emergency situation, or if
something awful happens to the mum for some reason, there.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Is food to feed the baby with.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So it's amazing that we have another option to feed babies, Okay,
and that's an amazing luxury. And so formula does have
its role. Formula definitely has its role sometimes, especially so
in mums who have it's called IGT, so it's insufficient
glandular tissue in their breasts, and that's relatively.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Rare, I would say.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
But so those mums potentially may never produce enough breast
milk to sustain their baby, so they will need to
either comby feed, so formula bit of breast milk, or
exclusively formula feed. And so that is where formula comes
into play where it does have significant benefits to being
a food source for babies.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I think breastfeeding, you know, it's so good for boosting immunity.
Like you said, it has prebiotics, probiotics, all of the things.
Let's move to formula feeding. Is their vitamins. Is there
things in there that's going to help with your baby's immunity?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
In formula there's water, carbs, protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals.
Everything your baby needs as a food source to grow beautifully.
Everything they need to sustain themselves and grow as we
want them to and thrive is there in formula.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It is there, But no, when we talk about.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
The immune support from breast milk, there are so many
components in breast milk that support immune immunity, but also
they're getting passive immunity from the mother. They're getting all
of the mother's antibodies, and then they also have loads
of different cells that attack bacteria, break down bacteria. So no,
(19:49):
formula doesn't have doesn't have immuneaport. Scientists have tried and
are continuously trying to match breast milk, but it's at
the moment it's simply possible. It's how do you recreate
a living being that are just on a daily basis,
on an hourly basis, depending on what your baby needs
(20:11):
at that time. What your baby is telling your body
through their saliva. That is something that is impossible to recreate.
So with formula, it is a fabulous food source, but
it doesn't have all of the added benefits.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Can we also just talk about the emotional aspect and
the bonding for the mother and the baby when breastfeeding,
because I think that's also so important for new mums.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Absolutely, and it's so it is so wonderful.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Do you know the first time you well, I definitely
felt it. The first time I breastfed my baby was
huge for me because although I had a home birth,
which was wonderful, my mum and sister and midwives, they
were there and it was just a lovely affair. My
baby shot up out of me at a rate of
not at the end, and I was so shell shocked
(21:06):
that I was like, I was like, ah, I had skins,
so this is hilarious. I'm a huge skin skin believer.
There's this whole you've probably heard of it, the golden hour.
I don't know if you have so after birth, the
ideal is you will have your baby's skin to skin
(21:26):
until you breastfeed, right, because that is the optimm because
they're transitioning from life in the uterus to being outside
there's bright lights. They're feeling the cold for the first time.
It's nerve wracking, so you want them on your skin.
I probably had my baby skin skin for five minutes
or so until the cords started stopped passing, and then
I was like, I need you to take the baby,
(21:50):
like I could not physically have her me, And then
my husband had her for an hour whilst I gave
birth to the placenta her and so then when she latched,
I was like, I don't know. You come into yourself
a bit more. You feel like everything is safe and
(22:10):
oka like your baby is here, and you're like, firstly.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You've done it. You've smashed it. You've had a baby.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
However, you have a baby caesarean vaginal birth, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
You've done it. Your baby is here, they're at your breast.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
They're skin to skin usually, But that bonding experience of
a baby on your breast is something that is so
hard to describe because obviously, even if your baby is dressed,
it's skin skin, because your baby's mouth is on your
breast every time you breastfeed. So I mentioned earlier about
(22:47):
oxytocin the love hormone. It works on smooth muscles, so
it ejects your breast milk. So every time you breastfeed
and the let down that people talk about, you release oxytocin.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So you breastfeed your bab you're flooded.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
With a happy hormone. So every time you will be
thinking like you'll just feel love, you with the love
without meaning to, because this is how you know, how
we were talking about before that. Actually it's all interlinked.
So breastfeeding releases oxytocin because we are built to protect
(23:22):
our young, okay, and so if we breastfeed, we release oxytocin.
We want to keep our babies alive and we want
to keep them supported. This is going back to like
Caveman's time, right, and so this is part of the
bonding experience because you're going to be breastfeeding like ten
to twelve times a day, let's be honest, right, and
you are going to be feeling this overwhelming oxytocin every
(23:47):
single time. So when we talk about you know before
you mentioned about mental health sometimes with mums who are breastfeeding.
When mums are have achieved their breastfeeding desires and goals,
they are less likely suffer with their mental.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Health because they're always.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Getting this beautiful release of oxytocin loads of times a day.
And actually, going back to that bonding, no one else
can feed your baby, unless of course you're pumping, right
going back to actually, your baby is on your breast.
They know your smell, they know your sound, they're feeling
your skin. They are home when they are on the
(24:25):
breast with you. That is the only home they've ever
known is inside you. And now they're feeding from you.
So this is the safest place that baby will ever
feel is at your breast. And so that's why I say,
you know, on day five when babies have their heel
prick tests where we test for metabolic diseases which you
wouldn't be able to know is happening to your baby,
(24:48):
breastfeed your baby at that time and they usually don't
react because they know if they're breastfeeding, they are safe
with their mum. Their mom has got them. They are fine, Like, yes,
something might be happening, but it's not a predator. No
one is going to hurt them when they are breastfeeding
with their mum.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Do mother still feel the oxytocin if they're pumping because
the milk is still coming out one percent.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
They can for sure. Because the thing with pumping is.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
It can be a bit different emotionally because pumping mums. Now,
I can't speak for all pumping mums. This is just
the experience that I've had through mums who have pumped.
Is that actually? So, when your baby is on the breast,
you may feel occasionally like, oh my gosh, I don't
really want a breastfeed, right, But you don't feel that
(25:43):
all the time because you're looking at your gorgeous baby
who you made. You're having this flood of hormones. You're
feeling physical touch by a human being which releases prolactin.
It's it really works on your happy hormones, right, stimulates
happy hormon with a pump. You're listening to them like
(26:04):
the sound and it's not your baby. And so I
have found some mums don't get. Yes, they get that
they would always get the oxytocin release, so they will
always have that positive benefit on their mental health for sure,
but they may not feel that kind of like flood
of warmth and happiness when they look because they're not
(26:24):
looking down at their baby. And sometimes it can feel
like another job pumping. That's what I've heard from mums,
because obviously pumping is hard blooming work. Like mums who pump,
I think are honestly soldiers. Like that's more breastfeeding you
just put your baby to the boob, right, Formula feeding
(26:44):
you have to sterilize, make up a bottle, and then.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
You feed them. Pumping you have to do all three.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So you're pumping, you're sterilizing, you're feeding your baby. So
pumping mums are the unsung heroes I have to tell
you of the feeding world. And so yeah, I would say,
you don't get that warmth when you pump, but you
would still get the benefits to your mental health for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
What would you say are some of the reasons that
mums would choose not to breastfeed their children?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So I would say that in the Western world.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So again this is just in my experience, So I
can't talk for all mums because everybody has their own
personal story and their own personal decisions around why.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
There are a few things here.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So women, obviously breast in the Western world are seen
as sexual organs right as so for some mums it
feels like a very odd concept. It feels almost weird
or wrong, and then it may also feel weird or
wrong for family members of theirs, and so actually a
(27:51):
lot of the time it's people in their ears who
are saying, oh no, don't just give your baby a bottle,
that's what you have. Especially mums who will not breastfed
themselves will often think, well, I'm fine, So you know,
why are they saying all this breast when breast is
great or whatever, When actually I'm great, So I can bottle,
(28:12):
I can formula.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Feed my baby and they'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Also family members, you know, there is definitely some I
have found that say if the grandmother so so, say
if it was your mother, your mother anna, so the
pregnant mum's mother didn't breastfeed, they sometimes have very strong
views about their daughter not breastfeeding as well. And I
don't know if that's about I don't know if there's
(28:37):
guilt linked into that. I genuinely don't know the.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Background to that.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
The other thing I would say is obviously we can't
overlook sexual trauma and that that can be a reason
why mums don't want to have their breasts touched regularly.
And obviously, you know, when breastfeeding, you're going to If
you're exclusively breastfeeding and your baby needs feeding, you're gonna
(29:02):
have to feed them no matter how you feel, kind
of and sometimes that can be really even as a
mum who breast you know, I breastfeed for twenty months,
I really suffered with towards the end agitation and aversion
and that's where, especially around my period, oh my god,
I didn't want to be touched. And it's really it
can be so overwhelming that I think there's a lot
(29:26):
about it that maybe you just don't like.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Physical touch as well.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
There may be some neurodiverse women out there who don't
enjoy touch. That could be a complex thing that may
maybe why they choose not to the Other reason as
well is that some moms feel that this is research
has shown this that breastfeeding is on a pedestal.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So people who have achieved in their.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Life will breastfeed right, and they're so good, and they're
going to breastfeed because it's up here. And maybe you
you haven't achieved a lot in your perception, in your perception,
and so breastfeeding becomes unattainable to you immediately from the
outset because you're thinking, oh, well, I'll never achieve that,
(30:13):
so why even try. The final reason actually to say
to you is about health workers. So midwives doctors make
assumptions about women from looking at them and decide whether
they're going to breastfeed or not, and then won't tell
them information. So these moms who choose not to breastfeed
may not actually know everything, and they may not be
(30:36):
making them form choice because someone has looked at them
and thought, oh, well, you're going to be a formula feeder.
I'm not going to bother And that is real, that
definitely happens.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's say that for some reason a mom is told
that she can't breastfeed. Maybe the baby is allergic to
the milk supply, or maybe they have a dairy intolerance,
or I don't know, there's some reason that they can't breastfeed.
There are feelings of you know, guilt and shame around that.
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I think because if a mom wants to breastfeed, then
she has those reasons, so as in she might think
she's done those a reading like she knows it's going
to support her baby's immunity, it's gonna do x Y
and z for her baby, and so then if she
can't do that, the side effect of that is grief.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's a morning, it's a loss.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
There's a lot written about breastfeeding grief and how real
it is, and I see it myself. You know, on
social media there are mums always commenting on my posts
that they were unable to breastfeed, and I always remind
them the way you feed your baby does not dictate
how amazing you are as a mother, Like you can
still be an amazing mum and formula feed your baby
(31:59):
like breast milk doesn't make you better as a mum.
And so there is so much grief out there because again,
if you have pictured feeding your baby, like you have
pictured that, just like you've pictured them going after school
or college or whatever, you've pictured having your baby at
the breast, and so you're mourning that future that you
(32:21):
saw and that that's not happening. I would have to say,
I know you just touched on milk allergies, and as
a mum of a baby who had so many allergies,
it is possible to breastfeed with a milk allergy. I
just like to say that Anna, Yeah, it's totally because
you just cut out dairy from your diet, and actually
(32:41):
it's much better to do it that way than trying
to switch on to formula. Can be really difficult because
sometimes babies are still allergic to the formula, and so.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It can be easier to do it your way, to.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Just keep them at the breast and remove things from
your diet. The one reason that mums definitely can't breastfeed,
I would say, is say if they're on medication that
does not go with breastfeeding, and that the benefits of
that medication for the mum outweigh the benefits of breastfeeding
for that baby. I would always say, mums, there are
some specific antipsychotic medication, So mums with significant mental health problems,
(33:17):
your mental health is paramount here over breastfeeding your baby.
So if you can't breastfeed due to medication, that is
a very real thing.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
How do we.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Support mums who are going through this struggle of you know,
thinking potentially they're going to breastfeed and then they can't.
How do we support them better?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Oh gosh, I think there needs to be so much
more support for this. I think even you know, support
groups and to be honest, you know, social media for
all of it's you know, rubbish side, there's actually a
lot of support out there for mums of any you know, anyway,
anything that happens to you in motherhood or anything in life.
(34:00):
If I'm sure you know, like you can find a
support group or a group.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
You need a group of people who get it. You
need people who say, I get.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
It, I get that pain that you're feeling. I've been there,
I've made it through to the other side. Basically, it's
also not their fault. The reason mums typically are not
able to breastfeed is because they were unsupported. So they
have been let down by society, they have been let
down by the maternal health services, and it is not
(34:31):
their fault. That is the key thing that I would
always want all mums to know. It is not their fault.
If it doesn't work, it's not on you. And it's
really about the provisions for mums need to be improved significantly.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I feel like what you said is so true, like
social media can be such a community for people and
you really rally around you and I think maybing pregnant.
I've really felt that. But then on the opposite end
of the penny, there's people who are extremely judgmental and
will give their unsolicited opinions about how you're doing a
terrible job, or you shouldn't do this, or you shouldn't
(35:07):
do this as a mum or a pregnant woman, or
wear this, or whatever it might be. Do you think
that the public messaging around breastfeeding does unintentionally alienate mothers?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I think it can do, but I think it's also
you know how I I think I mentioned earlier about
there's a huge backlash against breastfeeding because of the mums
who were unsupported in breastfeeding and then had to use
formula because of course then they had no choice, really
they had to use formula, and that creates a lot
(35:41):
of resentment, and so then there is a huge voice
out there of unhappy mums with resentment.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
In there, and then they feel like any.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Breastfeeding advice or because I get it on my page,
anytime I post about breastfeeding, there will typically be someone
on there saying that it has upset them seeing it
because for a multitude of reasons, and so I think
sometimes I think the messaging, depending on how it's coming across,
(36:12):
can alienate mums who feel like how I mentioned before.
If breastfeeding is on a pedestal, I won't be able
to achieve that. It can make the negative voice in
some mums' heads get louder because they think it's unattainable,
and also the reality of you know how well, I
guess if you think about birth when you are pregnant,
(36:33):
you will get told so many.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Horrible birth stories. It is ridiculously overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Even as a midwife, it's like, I don't know why
you're why are you telling me this? Right, It's the
same around feeding, and so we are not only flooded
with breast is great or whatever, we're also flooded with well,
it didn't work for me. It wasn't possible for me,
And so then you will think to yourself, depending on
your mindset, you'll think or I'm going to fall into
(37:01):
that category as well, it's not going to work for
me either. So I think that's I think that's where
the impact is. Just like home birth, Like there's been
research to show that home birth is equal to a
hospital birth, if not safer, that the messaging out there
sways women away from it.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, and I would say it's the same with breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, And I think it's it's such an important point
to make that we all have our own journey and
everyone is going to do things differently to you, and
to respect each person's choice or sometimes it's not even
a choice. Sometimes it's just what they have to do
or what they've been told. In what cases would you,
(37:43):
as a lactation consultant advise a mother not to breastfeed?
I know you spoke about medication. Is there any other
times where we would be told as mums this is
probably not going to be your path.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
There is one very rare condition that babies can have
where you need to move something from the milk and
it's in breast milk, it's in formula milk, and they
need to have a specific, very very specific formula because
they've got a rare disorder, I would say the only time.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So this is a really this is a really hard question.
Do you know why?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Because I think people will often jump to oh, mum's
mental health, like they should stop if their mental health
is becoming really poor. But we know from research that
mums who want to breastfeed and then stop their mental
health gets worse. And what these mums need at that
time is more support, like what is impacting them at
(38:36):
the time that is having the negative impact. Is it
breastfeeding or is it the care of their other children?
Is it the housework? I mean not to say that
Jesus or mothers do all the housework and look on no,
but I know.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What you mean. It is so much that we have
to do.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It's so much. And this is also again which I
forgot to mention earlier, why mums might not breastfeed is
because they're thinking, well, how the fuck am I going
to do that on top of everything else that I'm
expected to do because society and maybe certain partners will
expect them to. I have had clients who and also
when I watch in the NHS, who were like, oh,
(39:13):
but I need to tidy the house.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
They just had a baby. I need to tidy the house.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I can't sit here and breatfeeding, And I'm like, what,
like whoa where is your partner?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Where is family support? Friends? Can you pay a clean? Like?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
How much is what can we we need to support
the mother as a whole. Right Often it's not the
breastfeeding that's hard, to be honest, it's everything else. If
a mum was supported, how they used to be supportive
and how they are supported in a lot of cultures,
you know for the first like month thirty is it
forty days in some cultures, or sometimes don't leave the
(39:50):
bed right they are like brought food, they've brought their
baby to breastfeed, someone's dressing their baby, changing their babies
nappy like that mum just rest and feeds their baby.
How much better we would be as a society if
we all got that start in our post national journey, right.
So many of us have partners who go back to
(40:11):
work after a week or two weeks, and then you're
flying solo with a baby, and unless you've been well
supported initially with breastfeeding, so the latch is comfortable, you're
happy to just sit there because the reality is you're
gonna watch a lot of TV.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Is sit around a lot in the early months, okay.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Which, to be honest, if you relax into it, you
start to go into an oxytocic frame of mind, and
your brain actually shifts to the right hand side of
your brain, which is the more creative, relaxed, artistic side
of your brain. To be able to sit in that
and not be go, go, go, go go. You start
to relax into that breastfeeding journey, and so I would
(40:53):
be saying we need.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
To support the mother as a whole.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I have honestly never said to ed mother, you should
stop breastfeeding. I don't think it is right for that
to come from an external source. That choice has to
come from within the mother if she wants to stop,
because she will never forget that moment for the rest
of her life, just like you will never forget your birth.
You'll never forget how you were treated in the post
(41:18):
natal period, how your friends were You'll never forget any
of that because you're so primed. When a mum chooses
to stop breastfeeding, it has to be her decision alone
and not someone as in, if we cut out medicine
and whatever, we have to stop if you're on medication,
but that has to be the mum's choice. That really
does like I would never suggest, I don't believe health
(41:39):
professionals should be saying unless it's life or death, do
you know? And that's we're thinking. We're in a really
really touch like dark spot here. We shouldn't be telling
moms to stop breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
What would you want to leave women with? Let's just
say things that you wish are first time mum knew
about breastfeeding.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
So like, okay, so the first so my thing, So
my big thing is always the milk supply because I've
because often when I work privately, I will be like,
people will get me in sometimes when we've kind of
already missed the boat a bit. And so actually I
always tell arms like, don't forget the first five to
(42:22):
seven days are the most important. If your baby doesn't latch,
you're gonna pump. You're gonna have so much skinned skin.
So skin to skin releases the milk making hormone.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Skin to skin allows your baby to kind of be
there with you and seek out the breast without you
having to think. If your baby is in a cut,
you will be thinking to yourself, oh is that noise hunger?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Does she or he look hungry? If they're on a breast,
if they're on your.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Chest, you'll know because they are flinging themselves. They are
trying to get to the boob. So you're not second
guessing yourself. So I would first say, milk supply, don't
forget about that, because if you want choices, even if
you're not sure whether you want to continue, but you
still want to have a choice like in a week's time,
get your milk supply established in those first five to
(43:11):
seven days, and then you have options. And options are
key because you don't want to be making a decision
about breastfeeding on your worst day, because some days are tough.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Then the next thing I would say is if you
respond to your baby's cues and put them to the
breast when they're looking for it, and in the first week,
it's when their eyes are open. If their eyes are open,
it's the first feeding cue. So if their eyes are open,
you're going to offer them the boob. Nutrition will take
care of itself, Your milk supply will take care of itself.
Feeding doesn't have to be complicated. Feeding doesn't have to
(43:46):
be a tracking app. If you feed your baby when
they're hungry, it takes care of itself. Trust your baby
that if you have a well termed baby, that everything
is fine with which is most mums your baby.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
We'll let you know when they're hungry.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yeah, And then the final thing is ask for help,
and ask for help early if something doesn't feel quite right.
And something not feeling quite right is pain, Okay, so
ask for help, don't be afraid.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
In the hospital. LIVI you're in the hospital, get someone
to check your latch.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
If you're at home, find out who can support you,
who knows about feeling so a lactation consultant, your midwife,
and get them out to see you early.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
I love it. Thank you so much, Meghan. This has
been so insightful and so helpful for me personally, but
I know for our listeners and our community, it's been
great to hear all of the wisdom that you have
in regards to breastfeeding. And I'm just really appreciative that
you've come on the podcast, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
You're so welcome, and thank you so much for asking
me again.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
That was such a good interview. Midwife Meghan is such
a breath of fresh air. Keeping in mind, she is
a lactation consultant, so she's obviously going to be more
viewed towards breastfeeding. But also I loved what she said
about formula feeding. Let's jump in and hear from Steph
Claire Smith. Let's hear about her experience when it comes
to breastfeeding. Now, let's talk about breastfeeding. The breastfeeding conversations
(45:18):
online kind of stressed me out did you feel like
pressure around breastfeeding or you know, through your platform.
Speaker 5 (45:27):
Yeah, I mean like knowing that people would have an
opinion if I decided not to or whatever, Like maybe
that was a little bit of that.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
But I also, like, I'm so used to now.
Speaker 5 (45:38):
Having people's judgment throughout my entire life, like the last
fourteen years of my life or whatever. I've been online
with a bit of a platform, So I'm kind of
used to it, and I do tend to just like
lean into my gut, and if people are going to
disagree with me, like I can't please everyone. Yeah, with breastfeeding,
for me, it was something that I personally just like
really wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I knew that it wasn't going to be easy.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
I knew, well I had, you know, in my head
it wasn't gonna be easy because of the stories that
I'd heard. I'd had friends who you know, had really
unfortunate experiences and had to give up a.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Lot earlier than they wanted to.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
Then I've had friends who you know, felt really empowered
from the get go that the formula was going to
be their thing, and that was like fine, And so
I think for me, it was just kind of like
going into it like a birth preference.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Really, it's like I would love to be able to breastfeed.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
I'd love it to go well, but like it is
what it is if it doesn't, and I was really
fortunate that for me it did. There was only a
couple of times where I thought that like mastitis might
have been around the corner, like where I'd got blocked
milk ducks and it was really painful, or like a
couple of weeks after I first started breastfeeding, I got
(46:45):
like really fucking raw nipples and I was like basically
counting down before putting him on the boob because I.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Knew how painful that first latch would be.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
So there's there's parts of it that aren't glamorous, and
I think it's important to understand some of those things
or be aware of them, because otherwise you'll think I'm
doing something wrong.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
I'm doing something wrong.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
And you know, I've spoken to lactation consultants and stuff
before where they do some of them do believe, yes,
that no pain should be normal.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
Kind of like with period pain.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
Really, but I do think at the end of the day,
in navigating it for the first time, like there's going
to be some odd latches, or like the baby's also
navigating it for the first time as well, so things
will be a little bit painful or uncomfortable, and maybe
it won't feel as magical as you've imagined it to be.
But for me, I really really loved it. I had
a really good experience. I only weaned off it because
(47:35):
basically when I went back to work, which started with
a couple of days around six months, and then probably
more like three days from nine months, as soon as
I was away from him for kind of more than
just one working day, or if there was like two
working days in a row and I was pumping.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
I tried to pump as much as.
Speaker 5 (47:50):
I could, but it just never got as much as
a feed from a pump, and so my body just
started to drop in supply, and so it was just
this natural like I'm not home as much, We're gonna
have to start doing We were already introduced a little
bit of formula before that, but it was like, we're
gonna have to do more of that, and I need
to have this pressure off me with all this pumping.
(48:10):
Because I was sitting in a meeting thinking, shit, I
was goant to be pumping in an hour ago. Maybe
I was doing so much pain and like I'm gonna
There was meetings where I literally whipped the pump out.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
And like obviously I rode my own business, so like yeah.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
I kind of just looked around the room was like
you're all comforted with this call, like this is happening.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
And it but it did.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
It just came to a point where I was like, Okay,
this is like actually too, it's taking out way too
much of my mental load thinking how many meals am
I actually getting worrying about my supply dropping.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
It's just not worth it anymore.
Speaker 5 (48:41):
And so I like eventually just kind of I think
it went back to just like a morning feed or
a night time feed, cut all the day feeds completely.
Milk just kept dropping back, and I remember I don't
know if I I remember, like maybe I don't remember
my last feed, but I do remember after it finished,
which I think my last feed was somewhere between ten
and eleven months. Again, by that point, it was just
(49:03):
like complimenting feeds. It wasn't he wasn't getting all these
nutrients from my feeds. At that point, I remember probably
a couple of weeks after i'd finished, he was crying
and I went to comfort him with my.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Boob because that had worked in the past, and he
just kind of like whipped it away. He was like, nah,
like not anymore. And I was just like, oh my god.
Speaker 6 (49:24):
That was really hard because for me, I was like,
this was this thing that I could do, and like,
no one else could do this for you, and now
you don't even want it.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
For me, that that was hard.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
So I think I'm really really.
Speaker 5 (49:36):
Excited for that because I again kind of like the
whole pregnancy thing and finding it so fascinating. I think
it's amazing that we produce this thing, this like golden
liquid that just like keeps this baby alive and nourishes
them so much.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
So I really do hope.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
That I have a similar experience again, because I think
all in all, I really really loved it.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Loved hearing from my beautiful friend Steph. She actually spoke
about this on our episode with her and we really
wanted to cut it out and get a mum's real
life perspective, So thank you so much for that, Steph.
We love hearing about going back to work and your
experience with expressing milk, and I think as mums. We
really value hearing that. Now let's move on and hear
(50:26):
from our final expert. This is doctor Gollie's perspective on breastfeeding,
which I just love. So this is where you're going
to hear me say to him what happens if you
want to give up breastfeeding? And I love how he
corrects me. I think our language around breastfeeding is so
important and really making all mums feel valued, heard and
(50:46):
very capable. And I think we all make individual choices
and each of those choices is one hundred percent right
for us. So let's hear from doctor Gollie. Now for
mothers who are struggling. I've seen a lot of content
and on people just exhausted and sore and tired. What
would you say to those mums who may be on
the brink of giving up and switching to formula?
Speaker 7 (51:09):
So I have a really, really passionate response to that,
And sort of as I'm hearing that question, I'm thinking, Wow,
do I unleash or do I just give it a
little answer. I'm sorry, but I'm going to unleash.
Speaker 6 (51:24):
Unleash please, I have just told you how important and
brilliant and magical breast milk is okay, you're not going
to find a doctor on the planet he's going to
tell you that formula comes close to breast milk.
Speaker 7 (51:40):
But you have to understand, every single woman has to
understand that breastfeeding is not guaranteed. Okay, exclusive breastfeeding is
not guaranteed, and a perfect fit between mother and baby
is not guaranteed. It's not just about you know, the
(52:03):
shape of mum's nipples, It's about baby's palette, it's about
the strength of babies suck, it's about mum's supply. There
are so many factors at play, and so so many
factors mean so many places where this can go wrong
or not be perfect, in which case exclusive breastfeeding is
not happening. The reason why i'm you know, the thing
(52:24):
that I desperately want to change in this space is
the language. And I know that you didn't even mean to,
but you use the type of language that I think
we need to change, and you said give up.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I noticed, I said that, yeah.
Speaker 7 (52:39):
Because it's so it amazes me. There's so much negative talk.
And you know, I see mums like you're about to
become in my rooms all the time, and they use
terms like give up, or I can't or I failed.
All of this really negative talk. And I will interrupt
a mum mid sentence, and you know it's the school
(53:01):
teacher in me. I will literally I will tell them
off because that kind of language is just there's no
room for it. There's absolutely no room for it. You've
built a human Why, Like, how on earth could anyone
ever say that you have failed at something if you're
not exclusively breastfeeding. It boggles my mind. So if you
(53:23):
are producing colostrum and that is the end of your
breastfeeding journey, you are phenomenal. If you make no colostrum,
you are an absolute weapon. And if you mix feed
for however many weeks or months, you're brilliant. And if
you exclusively formula feed from day one, you are phenomenal.
(53:46):
There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of those outcomes. You
have support if you are struggling along your breastfeeding journey,
and if there's something that can be done that makes it,
you know, tweak, that enables you to do what you'd
like to do brilliant. The support out there, elctation consultants,
like I said, they are magicians. Go and seek them out.
(54:09):
Go and implement those changes. But Poeaes, do not consider
yourself a failure if it's not happening seamlessly. It doesn't
always work that way, because you know what, and I
say this to everyone who sits across from me in
my rooms, when last did you look at your newborn
child and say I made two perfect eyeballs?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (54:30):
I made it critical?
Speaker 7 (54:31):
Who beautiful femurs look at those ten toes? I did that?
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Like?
Speaker 7 (54:36):
When do women turn around and actually give themselves credit
for everything that's gone right as opposed to just lamenting
the one thing that someone else thinks is really important?
Get your head the right way round, and the earlier
you do this, the more enjoyable whatever your breastfeeding journey
(54:57):
is will be.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
That's all we have time for on today's episode. I
hope you enjoyed our episode on breastfeeding. We tried to
get lots of different perspectives on this one, and as
doctor Gollie said, mums really are superheroes. So whatever you
end up doing is right for you and for your baby,
and that's all that matters. Guys. Until next time, Bye,
Wanting to have kids is a huge life decision. But
once you're ready to embark on that journey, what do
you actually need to know? This podcast is the community
you never knew you needed from mums and mums to be.
We're about to embark on this learning journey together and
it's going to be real. It's going to be raw
and a completely non judgmental space. You're listening to Where's
(00:24):
your Bump Hat? And this is Anna macavoy Staples. I'm
going to be interviewing experts in the field so that
all of our burning questions can be answered, from understanding
our cycle to knowing what is the best time to conceive,
and so much more. We'll get into the difference between
(00:46):
natural verse c section births, strange pregnancy symptoms and everything
in between. Hello and welcome to another episode of Where's
Your Bump Hat. My name is Anna Macavoye Staples, and
on today's episode we are talking all things breastfeeding. Now,
this is a very polarizing topic and something that I
(01:07):
have been very mindful with when talking about. So on
today's episode, we have midwife Megan, who is a lactation consultant.
She is very pro breastfeeding, which is lovely. She tells
us about all of the great things to do with
breastfeeding and also bottle feeding as well, so we get
a really nice perspective on both of those. Then I
(01:28):
ask Steph clair Smith about her experience with breastfeeding. She
was on an earlier episode, and we talked to her
about how she found breastfeeding, how long she breastfed for,
which is super interesting. And finally we get Dr Golli's perspective.
He's a pediatrician and I actually asked him a question
(01:50):
and he corrected my wording, which I really appreciated because,
as I've said, I don't know it all, I'm still learning,
and I think it's so important the wording we use
around breastfeeding. So you'll hear that he corrects me, So
keep an eye out for that one. But overall, this
is a really great educational episode. There is no right
or wrong when it comes to breastfeeding. It's all about
(02:12):
just feeding our babies and nourishing them. And as we've
heard from our experts, the number one priority when it
comes to breastfeeding is the mum's health and well being.
So let's hear from our experts and start with midwife Megan. Hey, guys,
(02:33):
just quickly jumping into this episode before it starts. If
you follow my socials, then you would have seen that
I am officially a mum. It has been incredible. It's
been so crazy and so life changing, and there's just
no words to describe it. Swayede is now four weeks old.
(02:54):
I'm loving mum life. There's been so many highs and lows.
Funnily enough, I was actually at a CAA the other
day and someone reminded me that the newborn phase only
goes for six weeks, so I only have two more
weeks left of the newborn phase, and I'm so sad
it's already going so quickly and I just want to
slow down time. So just lapping up the rest of
(03:17):
my maternity leave before I come back, and then I
cannot wait to share my birth story with you guys.
Funnily enough, I'm recording this segment from Swede's nursery from
my favorite item in the nursery, which is the ill
Twuto chair. You guys recommended this item to me so much,
and I really want to repay the favor because, let
(03:38):
me tell you, this is the comfiest chair you will
ever sit on. I have the Louis Electric Recliner Glider
nursery chair in Tope Teddy for all of you who
have been asking which one I got, And honestly, ever
since Swede has come into the world, I have not
left this chair, whether it's breastfeeding, napping. It's really such
(04:02):
a mumhack. It's so comfortable. And they have the latte
shade now available across il Tuto's best selling styles, so
make sure you check those out for all the mums
to be out there. It's honestly such a lifesaver, especially
on those late night feeds. So ill Tuto have a
(04:24):
little something for you guys. We wanted to share the
good stuff with you guys first, so they are giving
you twenty percent off with code WYBA twenty and you'll
find that at il tuto dot com dot au. This
is valid until August thirty first, so getting quick. I
promise you you're not going to regret this purchase. It's my
(04:44):
favorite nursery staple. Also, just a little point that the
twenty percent off doesn't work on packs or gift cards,
but I'm going to put all the links and t's
and c's in our show notes for you, okay. And lastly,
if that's not exciting enough, ill Tuto have let me
in on a lit little secret. I spoke before about
how I have the Louis Electric Recliner in Teddy Flees,
(05:06):
but they are getting upgraded. There are three new colors
coming and honestly, they're so beautiful, so keep an eye
out for them. And also, I can't give too much away,
but let's just say there is some corduroy coming soon. Also,
last little update from me before this episode begins. Since
this is our breastfeeding episode, I have started my breastfeeding journey.
(05:29):
It has been so successful, which I'm so grateful for.
There's definitely been some painful moments and sleepless nights, but overall,
I'm just so grateful to be able to breastfeed Swede
and I'm loving it. Something I was not expecting was
the milk shooting out of my boobs, but maybe we
need to touch on that more in depth in season two.
(05:51):
So enjoy this episode, guys. I hope you love it
as much as I love talking to all of our
incredible experts. But anyway, that's all from me. Enjoy this
episode and cannot wait for season two and to be
back giving you all the motherhood updates. Today, I am
(06:14):
joined by the lovely lactation consultant AD midwife Megan.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Hello, Hi Anna, how are you doing.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I'm doing really well. It's so nice to officially meet you.
We've spoken on Instagram and you are so incredibly knowledgeable
when it comes to breastfeeding, so I needed to get
you on this podcast, so let's jump right into it.
There's so much as a mum to be that I
have no idea about when it comes to breastfeeding, and
(06:43):
I feel like there's this huge debate whether to breastfeed
or bottle feed your baby, So let's jump into that.
Why do you think that breastfeeding versus formula feeding is
such a huge topic?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
To be honest, do you know in you know?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
You contacted me through my introduction video on Instagram, and
I say this is a non judgmental page, like I
support all moms. I don't have any personal view about
the way you feed your baby. It's about your choices
and that you are supported in your choices. The way
(07:19):
a mother should feed is how she wants to feed.
It is really nobody else's business. But I believe in
mothers making informed choices, so you have all the information
laid out and then.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You choose what is best for you.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
So just to start off, I just don't judge any
mother on how they feed. And you know, on my
page I always say let's not judge each other because
definitely I think within the mother's sphere there can be
a lot of judgment about what another mother is doing,
and really we need to be more supportive of each other.
(07:57):
So to go back to the formula.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Versus breastfeat and why why is this a big deal?
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Like why is there so much complex emotions?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And so I would say the thing is that actually
there are a lot of mums who actually want to
breastfeed and then are unable to and that's where the
backlash comes from, because women are not supported enough on
their feeding journeys. So women are told Antonitaly when they're pregnant,
(08:29):
breastfeeding is amazing, you should do this, X, Y and Z,
here's why you should do this. And then they have
their baby and they're not supported well in hospital, and
then they're not supported in the community and so if
anything's going wrong, and unless they have access sometimes privately
to lactation consultants or depending on what their community services
(08:49):
are like, they may then not be successful in achieving
their personal feeding goals. And then that really, of course
those mums are going to feel upset guilty. We know
those mums who plan to breastfeed and are unable to
are more likely to suffer from poor mental health. Eight
(09:10):
in ten of those mums will suffer with their mental health,
and so that really is probably where this kind of
intense discussion and backlash comes from about with breastfeeding and
why there's this people coming from opposing sides about it
(09:30):
when really it's not a competition.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Feeding isn't a competition.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I think you're so right in what you said, like
you know, as we said, non judgmental space, but also
just letting people do them and what's what's right for
one person isn't going to be right for the next.
And like even the other day, I obviously I'm heavily
pregnant at the moment, and a lady who I had
never met before said I hope you're going to breastfeed,
(09:57):
and I was like, there's so much pressure, so much pressure,
and like I would obviously love to breasted but I'm
also super aware that it can be really challenging and
it's not possible for some mums or you know, they
can be difficulties. And that's why I think, like this
conversation is so great because we shouldn't be judgmental.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know why people say this
sort of stuff to pregnant mums.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
This is ridiculous.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Do you know. I when I had a home birth
with my baby, and I was a really senior midwife
at the time in Nottingham, and every single person at
work who I said I was having a homebirth for
my first baby had something negative to say to me,
like not to do it, there was going to be
an emergency, all this stuff, and I had a successful
(10:45):
home birth. It was beautiful, hard work birth is hard work,
but it was beautiful. And I think there's so much
fear mongering that takes place when you're pregnant and your
hormones are so primed and you're so up and you're
so the potential for anxiety so much greater. And so
then I think when people talk about feeding, do you
know feeding can go beautifully as well?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Atn't like we all say.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
Like, oh, it may not work, but it may also work,
like you may also meet your goals, Like if you
want to breastfeed, you know, it may work out beautifully.
Your baby may latch up birth, you never have trauma,
They gain weight beautifully, and that's it. It's not complex,
you know for millennia, like we have been fed. We
(11:30):
would be fed by the breast, right, we would be
extinct if it was that hard to do, because you know,
sometimes we might think with anything that we want to do,
oh but what if it doesn't work?
Speaker 2 (11:42):
But we also have to remember like, oh but what
if it does?
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah? Absolutely, And I think it is really important that
you brought that up because I personally want to go
into the birth and then the breastfeeding kind of journey
with a really positive outlook and kind of try to
manifest that positive of experience as opposed to freaking so
much on the negatives. But again trying to get all
(12:06):
of the information and then make a judgment based on that.
I mean, we've all heard the saying breast is best. Yeah,
what do people often misunderstand about that quote?
Speaker 3 (12:20):
I think the whole breast is best kind of again
plays into this competitive breast is best means you're the
best mother, you're the you know you're the best, and
you're better than someone else. But actually, again, the way
you feed your baby is not a competition. I guess
(12:42):
one thing to say, Anna is right, breast milk is
ultimately is made for your baby. So it's human milk
for a human baby. We are the only species that
feeds our young via another animals milk, and so I
would say that human milk is made for a human
(13:05):
baby for a reason. But with the slogan breast is best,
I think it's just so misunderstood, and then you know
there's fed is best.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I personally believe supported is best.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
So now that is supported in whatever they want to do,
and supported to the nth degree, like supported.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Till the cows come home, till the cows come home Jesus.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
But they're supported. Just women should be supported. We're not
supported enough in society. We're definitely not supported enough in motherhood,
and society really isn't set up for mums, and that
genuinely makes me emotional to think about. But the beginning
part is obviously about feeding, and so I truly believe
(13:57):
that we need to have more support, more supported in
the home hospitals, more supporting the community, more antenatal education
about breastfeeding, because the more you know about how to
get breastfeeding off to a great start, the better it
will be.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Because we know.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
That really you have around five to seven days to
establish a milk supply and after that time it's going
to be an uphill battle, and a lot of mums
don't know that.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
So a lot of mums don't know that.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Actually, you know, if your baby won't latch, if you've
got nipple trauma, then actually maybe hand express instead or
pump instead, because nipple trauma comes from the compression of
the baby's mouth on your nipple, So the nipple isn't
coming to the soft back palate, it's hitting the hard palate.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
So if you pump, that won't happen, so it won't
hurt your.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Breast, but you will maintain and establish a milk supply.
So then when you're ready to work on your latch
or maybe you have a tongue TI divided, it means
that you have a milk supply there to play with.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
You have choices.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
There's so much to unpack. Firstly, I would just want
to kind of take it back and ask you, what
are the core benefits of a mother who can breastfeed.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
So for the mum, a reduction in an ovarian cancer,
a reduction in breast cancer. So for every twelve months
you breastfeed with breast cancer, you reduce your chance of
getting breast cancer significantly, and even more significantly if you
have the I never pronounce this right, but the baraka
the Brocca gene, the way you're more predisposed to getting
(15:33):
breast cancer if you breastfeed. Every twelve months you breastfeed,
it reduces Now I don't know off the top of
my head, but it could be like twenty percent every
twelve months you breastfeed, so it's really significant. It reduces
the risk of getting and type two diabetes for the mum.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
It reduces the risk of heart disease.
Speaker 3 (15:51):
For the mum. It reduces the risk of developing high
blood pressure later in life for the mum.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
If we think about.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Breastfeed, you know, specifically talking about the month for a second,
If we think about, okay, what our bodies are made
for and how to explain this, If we produce milk
and our breasts, it was always meant to leave our breasts,
our bodies were designed for milk, for us, for women
(16:18):
to make milk and it to leave our body.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
And you know, everything in your body is so interlinked.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
So something might happen for a specific reason and that
creates this chain reaction, and that chain reaction that's.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
The same with breastfeeding.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So one thing where you could look at this is
when if you breastfeed after birth, immediately after birth, it
reduces your risk of blood loss. And that's because when
you breastfeed, you release oxytocin, the happy love hormone, and
that contracts smooth muscles, so it contracts your uterus and
reduces the blood loss because it's closing that wound inside
(16:56):
you where your placenta has been.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And so again that's the interlinking that we needed to
release more oxytocin.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
So your baby needs to breastfeed, you bleed less, So
everything in your body has a knock on effects. So
that's where breastfeeding comes into play for mums and then
with babies. The main things really are immune support lifelong
reduction in chronic illnesses.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
There has been people.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Get a bit a little bit angry about this, but
there is some evidence for a moderate improvement in IQ
with breastfeeding and then a reduction in allergies, obesity, diabetes.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
I mean, there are a lot, there are a lot
lots of benefits.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, what would we say on the opposing end, are
some benefits of bottle feeding.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
The benefit to formula milk is that if a mother
can't breastfeed, or if there's an emergency situation, or if
something awful happens to the mum for some reason, there.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Is food to feed the baby with.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So it's amazing that we have another option to feed babies, Okay,
and that's an amazing luxury. And so formula does have
its role. Formula definitely has its role sometimes, especially so
in mums who have it's called IGT, so it's insufficient
glandular tissue in their breasts, and that's relatively.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Rare, I would say.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
But so those mums potentially may never produce enough breast
milk to sustain their baby, so they will need to
either comby feed, so formula bit of breast milk, or
exclusively formula feed. And so that is where formula comes
into play where it does have significant benefits to being
a food source for babies.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
I think breastfeeding, you know, it's so good for boosting immunity.
Like you said, it has prebiotics, probiotics, all of the things.
Let's move to formula feeding. Is their vitamins. Is there
things in there that's going to help with your baby's immunity?
Speaker 3 (19:06):
In formula there's water, carbs, protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals.
Everything your baby needs as a food source to grow beautifully.
Everything they need to sustain themselves and grow as we
want them to and thrive is there in formula.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
It is there, But no, when we talk about.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
The immune support from breast milk, there are so many
components in breast milk that support immune immunity, but also
they're getting passive immunity from the mother. They're getting all
of the mother's antibodies, and then they also have loads
of different cells that attack bacteria, break down bacteria. So no,
(19:49):
formula doesn't have doesn't have immuneaport. Scientists have tried and
are continuously trying to match breast milk, but it's at
the moment it's simply possible. It's how do you recreate
a living being that are just on a daily basis,
on an hourly basis, depending on what your baby needs
(20:11):
at that time. What your baby is telling your body
through their saliva. That is something that is impossible to recreate.
So with formula, it is a fabulous food source, but
it doesn't have all of the added benefits.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Can we also just talk about the emotional aspect and
the bonding for the mother and the baby when breastfeeding,
because I think that's also so important for new mums.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Absolutely, and it's so it is so wonderful.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Do you know the first time you well, I definitely
felt it. The first time I breastfed my baby was
huge for me because although I had a home birth,
which was wonderful, my mum and sister and midwives, they
were there and it was just a lovely affair. My
baby shot up out of me at a rate of
not at the end, and I was so shell shocked
(21:06):
that I was like, I was like, ah, I had skins,
so this is hilarious. I'm a huge skin skin believer.
There's this whole you've probably heard of it, the golden hour.
I don't know if you have so after birth, the
ideal is you will have your baby's skin to skin
(21:26):
until you breastfeed, right, because that is the optimm because
they're transitioning from life in the uterus to being outside
there's bright lights. They're feeling the cold for the first time.
It's nerve wracking, so you want them on your skin.
I probably had my baby skin skin for five minutes
or so until the cords started stopped passing, and then
I was like, I need you to take the baby,
(21:50):
like I could not physically have her me, And then
my husband had her for an hour whilst I gave
birth to the placenta her and so then when she latched,
I was like, I don't know. You come into yourself
a bit more. You feel like everything is safe and
(22:10):
oka like your baby is here, and you're like, firstly.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
You've done it. You've smashed it. You've had a baby.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
However, you have a baby caesarean vaginal birth, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
You've done it. Your baby is here, they're at your breast.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
They're skin to skin usually, But that bonding experience of
a baby on your breast is something that is so
hard to describe because obviously, even if your baby is dressed,
it's skin skin, because your baby's mouth is on your
breast every time you breastfeed. So I mentioned earlier about
(22:47):
oxytocin the love hormone. It works on smooth muscles, so
it ejects your breast milk. So every time you breastfeed
and the let down that people talk about, you release oxytocin.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
So you breastfeed your bab you're flooded.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
With a happy hormone. So every time you will be
thinking like you'll just feel love, you with the love
without meaning to, because this is how you know, how
we were talking about before that. Actually it's all interlinked.
So breastfeeding releases oxytocin because we are built to protect
(23:22):
our young, okay, and so if we breastfeed, we release oxytocin.
We want to keep our babies alive and we want
to keep them supported. This is going back to like
Caveman's time, right, and so this is part of the
bonding experience because you're going to be breastfeeding like ten
to twelve times a day, let's be honest, right, and
you are going to be feeling this overwhelming oxytocin every
(23:47):
single time. So when we talk about you know before
you mentioned about mental health sometimes with mums who are breastfeeding.
When mums are have achieved their breastfeeding desires and goals,
they are less likely suffer with their mental.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Health because they're always.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Getting this beautiful release of oxytocin loads of times a day.
And actually, going back to that bonding, no one else
can feed your baby, unless of course you're pumping, right
going back to actually, your baby is on your breast.
They know your smell, they know your sound, they're feeling
your skin. They are home when they are on the
(24:25):
breast with you. That is the only home they've ever
known is inside you. And now they're feeding from you.
So this is the safest place that baby will ever
feel is at your breast. And so that's why I say,
you know, on day five when babies have their heel
prick tests where we test for metabolic diseases which you
wouldn't be able to know is happening to your baby,
(24:48):
breastfeed your baby at that time and they usually don't
react because they know if they're breastfeeding, they are safe
with their mum. Their mom has got them. They are fine, Like, yes,
something might be happening, but it's not a predator. No
one is going to hurt them when they are breastfeeding
with their mum.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Do mother still feel the oxytocin if they're pumping because
the milk is still coming out one percent.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
They can for sure. Because the thing with pumping is.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
It can be a bit different emotionally because pumping mums. Now,
I can't speak for all pumping mums. This is just
the experience that I've had through mums who have pumped.
Is that actually? So, when your baby is on the breast,
you may feel occasionally like, oh my gosh, I don't
really want a breastfeed, right, But you don't feel that
(25:43):
all the time because you're looking at your gorgeous baby
who you made. You're having this flood of hormones. You're
feeling physical touch by a human being which releases prolactin.
It's it really works on your happy hormones, right, stimulates
happy hormon with a pump. You're listening to them like
(26:04):
the sound and it's not your baby. And so I
have found some mums don't get. Yes, they get that
they would always get the oxytocin release, so they will
always have that positive benefit on their mental health for sure,
but they may not feel that kind of like flood
of warmth and happiness when they look because they're not
(26:24):
looking down at their baby. And sometimes it can feel
like another job pumping. That's what I've heard from mums,
because obviously pumping is hard blooming work. Like mums who pump,
I think are honestly soldiers. Like that's more breastfeeding you
just put your baby to the boob, right, Formula feeding
(26:44):
you have to sterilize, make up a bottle, and then.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
You feed them. Pumping you have to do all three.
Speaker 3 (26:49):
So you're pumping, you're sterilizing, you're feeding your baby. So
pumping mums are the unsung heroes I have to tell
you of the feeding world. And so yeah, I would say,
you don't get that warmth when you pump, but you
would still get the benefits to your mental health for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
What would you say are some of the reasons that
mums would choose not to breastfeed their children?
Speaker 2 (27:13):
So I would say that in the Western world.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So again this is just in my experience, So I
can't talk for all mums because everybody has their own
personal story and their own personal decisions around why.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
There are a few things here.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
So women, obviously breast in the Western world are seen
as sexual organs right as so for some mums it
feels like a very odd concept. It feels almost weird
or wrong, and then it may also feel weird or
wrong for family members of theirs, and so actually a
(27:51):
lot of the time it's people in their ears who
are saying, oh no, don't just give your baby a bottle,
that's what you have. Especially mums who will not breastfed
themselves will often think, well, I'm fine, So you know,
why are they saying all this breast when breast is
great or whatever, When actually I'm great, So I can bottle,
(28:12):
I can formula.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Feed my baby and they'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Also family members, you know, there is definitely some I
have found that say if the grandmother so so, say
if it was your mother, your mother anna, so the
pregnant mum's mother didn't breastfeed, they sometimes have very strong
views about their daughter not breastfeeding as well. And I
don't know if that's about I don't know if there's
(28:37):
guilt linked into that. I genuinely don't know the.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Background to that.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
The other thing I would say is obviously we can't
overlook sexual trauma and that that can be a reason
why mums don't want to have their breasts touched regularly.
And obviously, you know, when breastfeeding, you're going to If
you're exclusively breastfeeding and your baby needs feeding, you're gonna
(29:02):
have to feed them no matter how you feel, kind
of and sometimes that can be really even as a
mum who breast you know, I breastfeed for twenty months,
I really suffered with towards the end agitation and aversion
and that's where, especially around my period, oh my god,
I didn't want to be touched. And it's really it
can be so overwhelming that I think there's a lot
(29:26):
about it that maybe you just don't like.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Physical touch as well.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
There may be some neurodiverse women out there who don't
enjoy touch. That could be a complex thing that may
maybe why they choose not to the Other reason as
well is that some moms feel that this is research
has shown this that breastfeeding is on a pedestal.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
So people who have achieved in their.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Life will breastfeed right, and they're so good, and they're
going to breastfeed because it's up here. And maybe you
you haven't achieved a lot in your perception, in your perception,
and so breastfeeding becomes unattainable to you immediately from the
outset because you're thinking, oh, well, I'll never achieve that,
(30:13):
so why even try. The final reason actually to say
to you is about health workers. So midwives doctors make
assumptions about women from looking at them and decide whether
they're going to breastfeed or not, and then won't tell
them information. So these moms who choose not to breastfeed
may not actually know everything, and they may not be
(30:36):
making them form choice because someone has looked at them
and thought, oh, well, you're going to be a formula feeder.
I'm not going to bother And that is real, that
definitely happens.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Let's say that for some reason a mom is told
that she can't breastfeed. Maybe the baby is allergic to
the milk supply, or maybe they have a dairy intolerance,
or I don't know, there's some reason that they can't breastfeed.
There are feelings of you know, guilt and shame around that.
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I think because if a mom wants to breastfeed, then
she has those reasons, so as in she might think
she's done those a reading like she knows it's going
to support her baby's immunity, it's gonna do x Y
and z for her baby, and so then if she
can't do that, the side effect of that is grief.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
It's a morning, it's a loss.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
There's a lot written about breastfeeding grief and how real
it is, and I see it myself. You know, on
social media there are mums always commenting on my posts
that they were unable to breastfeed, and I always remind
them the way you feed your baby does not dictate
how amazing you are as a mother, Like you can
still be an amazing mum and formula feed your baby
(31:59):
like breast milk doesn't make you better as a mum.
And so there is so much grief out there because again,
if you have pictured feeding your baby, like you have
pictured that, just like you've pictured them going after school
or college or whatever, you've pictured having your baby at
the breast, and so you're mourning that future that you
(32:21):
saw and that that's not happening. I would have to say,
I know you just touched on milk allergies, and as
a mum of a baby who had so many allergies,
it is possible to breastfeed with a milk allergy. I
just like to say that Anna, Yeah, it's totally because
you just cut out dairy from your diet, and actually
(32:41):
it's much better to do it that way than trying
to switch on to formula. Can be really difficult because
sometimes babies are still allergic to the formula, and so.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It can be easier to do it your way, to.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Just keep them at the breast and remove things from
your diet. The one reason that mums definitely can't breastfeed,
I would say, is say if they're on medication that
does not go with breastfeeding, and that the benefits of
that medication for the mum outweigh the benefits of breastfeeding
for that baby. I would always say, mums, there are
some specific antipsychotic medication, So mums with significant mental health problems,
(33:17):
your mental health is paramount here over breastfeeding your baby.
So if you can't breastfeed due to medication, that is
a very real thing.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
How do we.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Support mums who are going through this struggle of you know,
thinking potentially they're going to breastfeed and then they can't.
How do we support them better?
Speaker 3 (33:36):
Oh gosh, I think there needs to be so much
more support for this. I think even you know, support
groups and to be honest, you know, social media for
all of it's you know, rubbish side, there's actually a
lot of support out there for mums of any you know, anyway,
anything that happens to you in motherhood or anything in life.
(34:00):
If I'm sure you know, like you can find a
support group or a group.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
You need a group of people who get it. You
need people who say, I get.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
It, I get that pain that you're feeling. I've been there,
I've made it through to the other side. Basically, it's
also not their fault. The reason mums typically are not
able to breastfeed is because they were unsupported. So they
have been let down by society, they have been let
down by the maternal health services, and it is not
(34:31):
their fault. That is the key thing that I would
always want all mums to know. It is not their fault.
If it doesn't work, it's not on you. And it's
really about the provisions for mums need to be improved significantly.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I feel like what you said is so true, like
social media can be such a community for people and
you really rally around you and I think maybing pregnant.
I've really felt that. But then on the opposite end
of the penny, there's people who are extremely judgmental and
will give their unsolicited opinions about how you're doing a
terrible job, or you shouldn't do this, or you shouldn't
(35:07):
do this as a mum or a pregnant woman, or
wear this, or whatever it might be. Do you think
that the public messaging around breastfeeding does unintentionally alienate mothers?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
I think it can do, but I think it's also
you know how I I think I mentioned earlier about
there's a huge backlash against breastfeeding because of the mums
who were unsupported in breastfeeding and then had to use
formula because of course then they had no choice, really
they had to use formula, and that creates a lot
(35:41):
of resentment, and so then there is a huge voice
out there of unhappy mums with resentment.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
In there, and then they feel like any.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
Breastfeeding advice or because I get it on my page,
anytime I post about breastfeeding, there will typically be someone
on there saying that it has upset them seeing it
because for a multitude of reasons, and so I think
sometimes I think the messaging, depending on how it's coming across,
(36:12):
can alienate mums who feel like how I mentioned before.
If breastfeeding is on a pedestal, I won't be able
to achieve that. It can make the negative voice in
some mums' heads get louder because they think it's unattainable,
and also the reality of you know how well, I
guess if you think about birth when you are pregnant,
(36:33):
you will get told so many.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Horrible birth stories. It is ridiculously overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Even as a midwife, it's like, I don't know why
you're why are you telling me this? Right, It's the
same around feeding, and so we are not only flooded
with breast is great or whatever, we're also flooded with well,
it didn't work for me. It wasn't possible for me,
And so then you will think to yourself, depending on
your mindset, you'll think or I'm going to fall into
(37:01):
that category as well, it's not going to work for
me either. So I think that's I think that's where
the impact is. Just like home birth, Like there's been
research to show that home birth is equal to a
hospital birth, if not safer, that the messaging out there
sways women away from it.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, and I would say it's the same with breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, And I think it's it's such an important point
to make that we all have our own journey and
everyone is going to do things differently to you, and
to respect each person's choice or sometimes it's not even
a choice. Sometimes it's just what they have to do
or what they've been told. In what cases would you,
(37:43):
as a lactation consultant advise a mother not to breastfeed?
I know you spoke about medication. Is there any other
times where we would be told as mums this is
probably not going to be your path.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
There is one very rare condition that babies can have
where you need to move something from the milk and
it's in breast milk, it's in formula milk, and they
need to have a specific, very very specific formula because
they've got a rare disorder, I would say the only time.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
So this is a really this is a really hard question.
Do you know why?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
Because I think people will often jump to oh, mum's
mental health, like they should stop if their mental health
is becoming really poor. But we know from research that
mums who want to breastfeed and then stop their mental
health gets worse. And what these mums need at that
time is more support, like what is impacting them at
(38:36):
the time that is having the negative impact. Is it
breastfeeding or is it the care of their other children?
Is it the housework? I mean not to say that
Jesus or mothers do all the housework and look on no,
but I know.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
What you mean. It is so much that we have
to do.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It's so much. And this is also again which I
forgot to mention earlier, why mums might not breastfeed is
because they're thinking, well, how the fuck am I going
to do that on top of everything else that I'm
expected to do because society and maybe certain partners will
expect them to. I have had clients who and also
when I watch in the NHS, who were like, oh,
(39:13):
but I need to tidy the house.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
They just had a baby. I need to tidy the house.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
I can't sit here and breatfeeding, And I'm like, what,
like whoa where is your partner?
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Where is family support? Friends? Can you pay a clean? Like?
Speaker 3 (39:27):
How much is what can we we need to support
the mother as a whole. Right Often it's not the
breastfeeding that's hard, to be honest, it's everything else. If
a mum was supported, how they used to be supportive
and how they are supported in a lot of cultures,
you know for the first like month thirty is it
forty days in some cultures, or sometimes don't leave the
(39:50):
bed right they are like brought food, they've brought their
baby to breastfeed, someone's dressing their baby, changing their babies
nappy like that mum just rest and feeds their baby.
How much better we would be as a society if
we all got that start in our post national journey, right.
So many of us have partners who go back to
(40:11):
work after a week or two weeks, and then you're
flying solo with a baby, and unless you've been well
supported initially with breastfeeding, so the latch is comfortable, you're
happy to just sit there because the reality is you're
gonna watch a lot of TV.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
Is sit around a lot in the early months, okay.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
Which, to be honest, if you relax into it, you
start to go into an oxytocic frame of mind, and
your brain actually shifts to the right hand side of
your brain, which is the more creative, relaxed, artistic side
of your brain. To be able to sit in that
and not be go, go, go, go go. You start
to relax into that breastfeeding journey, and so I would
(40:53):
be saying we need.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
To support the mother as a whole.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
I have honestly never said to ed mother, you should
stop breastfeeding. I don't think it is right for that
to come from an external source. That choice has to
come from within the mother if she wants to stop,
because she will never forget that moment for the rest
of her life, just like you will never forget your birth.
You'll never forget how you were treated in the post
(41:18):
natal period, how your friends were You'll never forget any
of that because you're so primed. When a mum chooses
to stop breastfeeding, it has to be her decision alone
and not someone as in, if we cut out medicine
and whatever, we have to stop if you're on medication,
but that has to be the mum's choice. That really
does like I would never suggest, I don't believe health
(41:39):
professionals should be saying unless it's life or death, do
you know? And that's we're thinking. We're in a really
really touch like dark spot here. We shouldn't be telling
moms to stop breastfeeding.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
What would you want to leave women with? Let's just
say things that you wish are first time mum knew
about breastfeeding.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
So like, okay, so the first so my thing, So
my big thing is always the milk supply because I've
because often when I work privately, I will be like,
people will get me in sometimes when we've kind of
already missed the boat a bit. And so actually I
always tell arms like, don't forget the first five to
(42:22):
seven days are the most important. If your baby doesn't latch,
you're gonna pump. You're gonna have so much skinned skin.
So skin to skin releases the milk making hormone.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (42:34):
Skin to skin allows your baby to kind of be
there with you and seek out the breast without you
having to think. If your baby is in a cut,
you will be thinking to yourself, oh is that noise hunger?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Does she or he look hungry? If they're on a breast,
if they're on your.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Chest, you'll know because they are flinging themselves. They are
trying to get to the boob. So you're not second
guessing yourself. So I would first say, milk supply, don't
forget about that, because if you want choices, even if
you're not sure whether you want to continue, but you
still want to have a choice like in a week's time,
get your milk supply established in those first five to
(43:11):
seven days, and then you have options. And options are
key because you don't want to be making a decision
about breastfeeding on your worst day, because some days are tough.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Then the next thing I would say is if you
respond to your baby's cues and put them to the
breast when they're looking for it, and in the first week,
it's when their eyes are open. If their eyes are open,
it's the first feeding cue. So if their eyes are open,
you're going to offer them the boob. Nutrition will take
care of itself, Your milk supply will take care of itself.
Feeding doesn't have to be complicated. Feeding doesn't have to
(43:46):
be a tracking app. If you feed your baby when
they're hungry, it takes care of itself. Trust your baby
that if you have a well termed baby, that everything
is fine with which is most mums your baby.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
We'll let you know when they're hungry.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Yeah, And then the final thing is ask for help,
and ask for help early if something doesn't feel quite right.
And something not feeling quite right is pain, Okay, so
ask for help, don't be afraid.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
In the hospital. LIVI you're in the hospital, get someone
to check your latch.
Speaker 3 (44:18):
If you're at home, find out who can support you,
who knows about feeling so a lactation consultant, your midwife,
and get them out to see you early.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
I love it. Thank you so much, Meghan. This has
been so insightful and so helpful for me personally, but
I know for our listeners and our community, it's been
great to hear all of the wisdom that you have
in regards to breastfeeding. And I'm just really appreciative that
you've come on the podcast, So thank you.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
You're so welcome, and thank you so much for asking
me again.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
That was such a good interview. Midwife Meghan is such
a breath of fresh air. Keeping in mind, she is
a lactation consultant, so she's obviously going to be more
viewed towards breastfeeding. But also I loved what she said
about formula feeding. Let's jump in and hear from Steph
Claire Smith. Let's hear about her experience when it comes
to breastfeeding. Now, let's talk about breastfeeding. The breastfeeding conversations
(45:18):
online kind of stressed me out did you feel like
pressure around breastfeeding or you know, through your platform.
Speaker 5 (45:27):
Yeah, I mean like knowing that people would have an
opinion if I decided not to or whatever, Like maybe
that was a little bit of that.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
But I also, like, I'm so used to now.
Speaker 5 (45:38):
Having people's judgment throughout my entire life, like the last
fourteen years of my life or whatever. I've been online
with a bit of a platform, So I'm kind of
used to it, and I do tend to just like
lean into my gut, and if people are going to
disagree with me, like I can't please everyone. Yeah, with breastfeeding,
for me, it was something that I personally just like
really wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I knew that it wasn't going to be easy.
Speaker 5 (46:00):
I knew, well I had, you know, in my head
it wasn't gonna be easy because of the stories that
I'd heard. I'd had friends who you know, had really
unfortunate experiences and had to give up a.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
Lot earlier than they wanted to.
Speaker 5 (46:12):
Then I've had friends who you know, felt really empowered
from the get go that the formula was going to
be their thing, and that was like fine, And so
I think for me, it was just kind of like
going into it like a birth preference.
Speaker 4 (46:22):
Really, it's like I would love to be able to breastfeed.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
I'd love it to go well, but like it is
what it is if it doesn't, and I was really
fortunate that for me it did. There was only a
couple of times where I thought that like mastitis might
have been around the corner, like where I'd got blocked
milk ducks and it was really painful, or like a
couple of weeks after I first started breastfeeding, I got
(46:45):
like really fucking raw nipples and I was like basically
counting down before putting him on the boob because I.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Knew how painful that first latch would be.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
So there's there's parts of it that aren't glamorous, and
I think it's important to understand some of those things
or be aware of them, because otherwise you'll think I'm
doing something wrong.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
I'm doing something wrong.
Speaker 5 (47:04):
And you know, I've spoken to lactation consultants and stuff
before where they do some of them do believe, yes,
that no pain should be normal.
Speaker 4 (47:11):
Kind of like with period pain.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
Really, but I do think at the end of the day,
in navigating it for the first time, like there's going
to be some odd latches, or like the baby's also
navigating it for the first time as well, so things
will be a little bit painful or uncomfortable, and maybe
it won't feel as magical as you've imagined it to be.
But for me, I really really loved it. I had
a really good experience. I only weaned off it because
(47:35):
basically when I went back to work, which started with
a couple of days around six months, and then probably
more like three days from nine months, as soon as
I was away from him for kind of more than
just one working day, or if there was like two
working days in a row and I was pumping.
Speaker 4 (47:49):
I tried to pump as much as.
Speaker 5 (47:50):
I could, but it just never got as much as
a feed from a pump, and so my body just
started to drop in supply, and so it was just
this natural like I'm not home as much, We're gonna
have to start doing We were already introduced a little
bit of formula before that, but it was like, we're
gonna have to do more of that, and I need
to have this pressure off me with all this pumping.
(48:10):
Because I was sitting in a meeting thinking, shit, I
was goant to be pumping in an hour ago. Maybe
I was doing so much pain and like I'm gonna
There was meetings where I literally whipped the pump out.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
And like obviously I rode my own business, so like yeah.
Speaker 5 (48:22):
I kind of just looked around the room was like
you're all comforted with this call, like this is happening.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
And it but it did.
Speaker 5 (48:31):
It just came to a point where I was like, Okay,
this is like actually too, it's taking out way too
much of my mental load thinking how many meals am
I actually getting worrying about my supply dropping.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
It's just not worth it anymore.
Speaker 5 (48:41):
And so I like eventually just kind of I think
it went back to just like a morning feed or
a night time feed, cut all the day feeds completely.
Milk just kept dropping back, and I remember I don't
know if I I remember, like maybe I don't remember
my last feed, but I do remember after it finished,
which I think my last feed was somewhere between ten
and eleven months. Again, by that point, it was just
(49:03):
like complimenting feeds. It wasn't he wasn't getting all these
nutrients from my feeds. At that point, I remember probably
a couple of weeks after i'd finished, he was crying
and I went to comfort him with my.
Speaker 4 (49:15):
Boob because that had worked in the past, and he
just kind of like whipped it away. He was like, nah,
like not anymore. And I was just like, oh my god.
Speaker 6 (49:24):
That was really hard because for me, I was like,
this was this thing that I could do, and like,
no one else could do this for you, and now
you don't even want it.
Speaker 4 (49:32):
For me, that that was hard.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
So I think I'm really really.
Speaker 5 (49:36):
Excited for that because I again kind of like the
whole pregnancy thing and finding it so fascinating. I think
it's amazing that we produce this thing, this like golden
liquid that just like keeps this baby alive and nourishes
them so much.
Speaker 4 (49:49):
So I really do hope.
Speaker 5 (49:50):
That I have a similar experience again, because I think
all in all, I really really loved it.
Speaker 1 (50:02):
Loved hearing from my beautiful friend Steph. She actually spoke
about this on our episode with her and we really
wanted to cut it out and get a mum's real
life perspective, So thank you so much for that, Steph.
We love hearing about going back to work and your
experience with expressing milk, and I think as mums. We
really value hearing that. Now let's move on and hear
(50:26):
from our final expert. This is doctor Gollie's perspective on breastfeeding,
which I just love. So this is where you're going
to hear me say to him what happens if you
want to give up breastfeeding? And I love how he
corrects me. I think our language around breastfeeding is so
important and really making all mums feel valued, heard and
(50:46):
very capable. And I think we all make individual choices
and each of those choices is one hundred percent right
for us. So let's hear from doctor Gollie. Now for
mothers who are struggling. I've seen a lot of content
and on people just exhausted and sore and tired. What
would you say to those mums who may be on
the brink of giving up and switching to formula?
Speaker 7 (51:09):
So I have a really, really passionate response to that,
And sort of as I'm hearing that question, I'm thinking, Wow,
do I unleash or do I just give it a
little answer. I'm sorry, but I'm going to unleash.
Speaker 6 (51:24):
Unleash please, I have just told you how important and
brilliant and magical breast milk is okay, you're not going
to find a doctor on the planet he's going to
tell you that formula comes close to breast milk.
Speaker 7 (51:40):
But you have to understand, every single woman has to
understand that breastfeeding is not guaranteed. Okay, exclusive breastfeeding is
not guaranteed, and a perfect fit between mother and baby
is not guaranteed. It's not just about you know, the
(52:03):
shape of mum's nipples, It's about baby's palette, it's about
the strength of babies suck, it's about mum's supply. There
are so many factors at play, and so so many
factors mean so many places where this can go wrong
or not be perfect, in which case exclusive breastfeeding is
not happening. The reason why i'm you know, the thing
(52:24):
that I desperately want to change in this space is
the language. And I know that you didn't even mean to,
but you use the type of language that I think
we need to change, and you said give up.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I noticed, I said that, yeah.
Speaker 7 (52:39):
Because it's so it amazes me. There's so much negative talk.
And you know, I see mums like you're about to
become in my rooms all the time, and they use
terms like give up, or I can't or I failed.
All of this really negative talk. And I will interrupt
a mum mid sentence, and you know it's the school
(53:01):
teacher in me. I will literally I will tell them
off because that kind of language is just there's no
room for it. There's absolutely no room for it. You've
built a human Why, Like, how on earth could anyone
ever say that you have failed at something if you're
not exclusively breastfeeding. It boggles my mind. So if you
(53:23):
are producing colostrum and that is the end of your
breastfeeding journey, you are phenomenal. If you make no colostrum,
you are an absolute weapon. And if you mix feed
for however many weeks or months, you're brilliant. And if
you exclusively formula feed from day one, you are phenomenal.
(53:46):
There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of those outcomes. You
have support if you are struggling along your breastfeeding journey,
and if there's something that can be done that makes it,
you know, tweak, that enables you to do what you'd
like to do brilliant. The support out there, elctation consultants,
like I said, they are magicians. Go and seek them out.
(54:09):
Go and implement those changes. But Poeaes, do not consider
yourself a failure if it's not happening seamlessly. It doesn't
always work that way, because you know what, and I
say this to everyone who sits across from me in
my rooms, when last did you look at your newborn
child and say I made two perfect eyeballs?
Speaker 2 (54:29):
You know?
Speaker 4 (54:30):
I made it critical?
Speaker 7 (54:31):
Who beautiful femurs look at those ten toes? I did that?
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Like?
Speaker 7 (54:36):
When do women turn around and actually give themselves credit
for everything that's gone right as opposed to just lamenting
the one thing that someone else thinks is really important?
Get your head the right way round, and the earlier
you do this, the more enjoyable whatever your breastfeeding journey
(54:57):
is will be.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
That's all we have time for on today's episode. I
hope you enjoyed our episode on breastfeeding. We tried to
get lots of different perspectives on this one, and as
doctor Gollie said, mums really are superheroes. So whatever you
end up doing is right for you and for your baby,
and that's all that matters. Guys. Until next time, Bye,
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