October 27, 2024 • 48 mins
Does the police theory of what happened to William make sense?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Okay, I called David Laidlaw.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
David Laidlaw is the detective leading the investigation into William
Tihan's disappearance.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
How would you take your oath for an information?
Speaker 5 (00:17):
Cudney.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
He's tall and heavy set, with white hair and a
thick white mustache.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And your occupation.
Speaker 6 (00:24):
I'm a detective chief inspector and you're with the homicide squad.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's correct, Thank you. David's what you might call a
veteran policeman.
Speaker 7 (00:36):
You've been with the force since the late seventies.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
That's correct, meaning he's been a cop for longer than
I have been alive.
Speaker 7 (00:47):
And you've been a detective since nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 6 (00:52):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Train And he's been a detective investigating serious crimes since
I was in primary school and still getting pocket money.
Speaker 7 (01:01):
And you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,
is that right?
Speaker 6 (01:05):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
His job today is as Investigation Coordinator of the New
South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team, roughly forty detectives whose
job it is to go back over cases that others
couldn't solve and solve them. Every one of those cases
represents a grieving family who might have waited decades for
(01:28):
an answer. New South Wales Police has around eight hundred
unsolved cases on its books, although the numbers are a
bit uncertain.
Speaker 7 (01:38):
And you say that as at the date of your statement,
there were eight hundred and twenty nine of those cases.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
Yes, the figures provided by New South Wales Police as
at yesterday for that period is seven hundred and ninety.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Yes, I can assist.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
Now, do you know what's happened to those files?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
No? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
He should know.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
That's why David's being questioned by this special Commission of
Inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to
specific hate crimes, because it's his job to oversee the
review of those unsolved cases. The way it works is
another cop takes a first look at the file, called
a triage. They then report to David, who decides if
(02:28):
the case will be formally reviewed. Only then can it
be reinvestigated. And all of this can take weeks or
months or years.
Speaker 7 (02:40):
Two hundred and thirteen have not yet been triarched.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Now with their figures should be one hundred and twenty five.
I see, So.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
That's one hundred and twenty five possible unsolved murders. The
Unsolved Homicide Team have never looked at.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Some of those cases, maybe decades off.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
They could be is The Unsolved Homicide Team was established
back in two thousand and four, but the triage is
just the first stage of their work.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
Now.
Speaker 7 (03:11):
According to these figures, there are two hundred and ninety
one cases where it appears at least that no review
has been completed.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
One hundred and twenty five cases plus two hundred and
ninety one cases equals quite a backlog. That's hundreds of
possible murders grieving families. David says, it's a resource issue.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have
enough people to do them. Mean enough people are made
by people who are qualified.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
At this point, the head of the inquiry interrupts him.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Out of more resource has been requested.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
No, so David hasn't asked for any help.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
That's correct. But I know there's nineteen three hours ready
for me to vid. I haven't had the opportunity to
vid yet for how long since? Since I'd say since June,
I would say.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
Last year, so that there was nineteen where somebody has
completed a review and sent it to you to assist,
I've been sitting on your desk.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
For over twelve months, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
Yes, when do you expect to get to them?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Just to stress, that's nineteen families waiting maybe decades for
an answer to what happened, not knowing the file detailing
their loved ones possible murder has been triaged by a detective,
then sat unopened on David's desk for the past year.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
And have you drawn this to the Commissioner's attention that
you need more resources one way or the other?
Speaker 6 (04:57):
No, I haven't, sir.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Why not if the work is that important or does
it not require urgent attention?
Speaker 6 (05:05):
It does require a little.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Well, then why hasn't somebody said something to the commissioner
instead of sitting quietly leaving files collecting dust on the desk.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
If I can reiterate what I said before, is that
we're going from a backlog of we've still got treo
as forms that have been completed that we cannot get
out of even the review because there's so many of them.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Do I work on the basis that the present Commissioner
is entirely unaware of the resources issues that you currently face.
Is that right?
Speaker 6 (05:35):
That's correct?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
So well, it is remarkable form assosa, Yes, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
The inquiry's final report set it is difficult to see
how these resource issues could provide a justification for Detective
Chief Inspector laid Law to fail to perform his own
function in relation to these nineteen cases. David said part
of the reason was he was busy investigating the disappearance
(06:08):
of William Tyrol. He's still investigating William's disappearance. I'm Dan
box and from news dot com dot Au. This is
Witness William tyrrel Episode four. The police theory. Those nineteen
(06:36):
files David laid Law's not had time to open, and
the nineteen grieving families they represent, I can't help but
see them as part of the fallout from the investigation
into William's disappearance. And there are others like William's biological family,
where his grandmother says she lost her son over the
(06:57):
past ten years when they haven't had any answers and
she lost herself as well. David is still working to
solve the case, though, and the police have now set
their sights on William's foster mother.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Where are we.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
This is the house where William went missing.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So Nina, who's the producer on this podcast, and I
have come to the house where William was reported missing
to try walking through the police's theory of what happened
to him. So this is what the police now think
happened to William, and we've pieced this together from the
cross examination of their new suspects in the New South
(07:38):
Wales Crime Commission and the cross examination of one of
the detectives investigating William's disappearance in court. In court, that
detective confirmed that this is one of their theories and
he said the police believe they know where William's body
was disposed of, and that he's formed the view that
(07:58):
William's foster mother knows where William Tool is. The house
where William was reported missing is a big, two story
building at the top of a dead end road called
Bennerum Drive. The neighbour's houses are all set back from
the road and each house is surrounded by a wide garden.
(08:20):
It looks like a nice place to live, blue sky,
green grass, the quiet, but behind the houses on either
side is forest. The last known photograph of William Tool
was taken at nine thirty seven on the morning he
went missing, and he's wearing his Spider Man suit on
(08:40):
this verandah of the house. The photo is taken by
his foster mother, and you can see William's happy. His
mouth is open like he's laughing or he's excited or
he's roaring. And we know the foster mother's there because
she took the photograph, and we know that her mum
is there, but the foster father, her husband, he's left
(09:00):
the home earlier that morning. He's gone to make a
work call. He needs internet reception to do that.
Speaker 8 (09:05):
And just to say, we do have a point in
time for when he left because there was CCTV, right.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, So all of that's been confirmed, but the uncertainty
is over the time of the photographic could be out
by two hours, so that would make it seven thirty seven,
not nine thirty seven. The foster mum told police when
she was asked about this, that she didn't know how
to set the camera. But the police and later the
inquest have looked at this. There's been forensic examination and
(09:32):
both accept that nine thirty seven is accurate.
Speaker 9 (09:36):
And I look at that picture and I just think.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Minutes, minutes and our world has changed.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
This is William's foster mother from an interview with both
foster parents recorded by New South Wales police months after
he was reported missing. So Evan, let's start the timer
now after the photograph's taken. The foster mother tells police
(10:06):
that William Tirell did more drawing on the verandah, and
she remembers playing with dice with him. She was teaching
the kids how to count, and William's sister came over
and she wanted to join in, and William withdrew.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So that's all his foster mum's account.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
She's told police that William then got bored and he
tried different activities, including a game that they called Daddy Tiger.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So William was roaring at the grown ups.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
But the foster mother tells police that at some point
William Tirell jumped down off the deck on his own.
Speaker 8 (10:41):
He's got a really good sense of adventure, but he's
got a really good understanding of his limitations.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
He's not not a wanderer, not a child to run away.
Speaker 8 (10:51):
Always had us in earshot or eyesight.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She says.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
She told him to put his shoes on, but he's
barefoot in the photograph. But the thing is, there's been
a whole bunch of controversy about this photo. There's been
headlines in the newspaper about did he have shoes on?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Didn't he have shoes on? And does that mean somebody
is lying.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
The foster mother says she told him to put his
shoes on because there might be bindi's in the grass.
Speaker 8 (11:18):
Yeah, so that's that was the argument that was made,
that there weren't bedis.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
There was a whole bunch of controversy online in the
newspapers about whether or not.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was bindy season.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
We're at the house and there's a bindi and it's
that time of year.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So look the long and the short of that is.
I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own
shoes on, and his shoes.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Had velcro straps, so.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Whatever the foster mother said, he could have put shoes on.
At the time, William is said by his foster mother
to have jumped down off this verandah and run off
around the corner of the house. He's running up and
roaring and running away, and she says she asked William,
can you see Daddy's car? Because his foster father was
(12:05):
due to come back at any moment.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
He's not a kid that would just run into something.
Speaker 8 (12:14):
He would stop and think, he would consider what he
would do before he would do anything else.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Yeah, Yeah, and sid stay within within distance, knowing how
far away he was from.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Us, and the foster mum remembers that her tea was hot,
and she remembers drinking some of it, and she remembers
hearing William row and then she told police, I hear nothing.
Speaker 6 (12:39):
I can't hear him. Why why can't I hear him?
Speaker 8 (12:43):
And I walked around. It was just two meters three
meters away from where we were sitting, and I've just
walked out and I just see nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And she goes around the corner of the house. I
don't know if she's on the funda or if she's
on the garden next to it, but she's moved around
the corner of the house so she can see down
the slope from the back of the property.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I'm yelling out, William, where are you? You need
to talk to Mommy, tell me where you are. I
can't see you, I can't hear you. Where are you?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And she says she remembers standing there, just staring into space,
thinking why can't I hear him? Why can't I see him?
Why can't I see the red through the bushes down there?
So the red is the Spider Man suit that we
know he was wearing because it was in that photograph,
and she says, she goes back to her mum and
she says, he's not here. William's not here. Now this
(13:48):
is where we start to lose the timing. She tells
the police that the gap between the photograph being taken
to William and her going to look for William was
maybe five ten minutes. But she's quest on this at
different times by the police, and she's inconsistent on exactly
how long it was, and at one point the police
actually ask her. They say, sometimes five minutes doesn't always
(14:10):
feel like five minutes, which is fair, and.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
She accepts that.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So let's say five minutes for playing the dice, for
William getting bored, for running off and back for playing
Daddy Tiger being told can you see Daddy's car, and
the foster mother realizing she can't hear him. So the
minimum estimate that she gives so five minutes. If the
photo was at nine thirty seven, it's now nine forty
(14:36):
two and on our timer. We've been six in a
bit minutes. But the police theory is that William went
around the other side of the house and fell off
the verandah here, and that at this point the foster
mother found William's body and these ferns and the foliage
around under the verandah, that he was dead, but she
(14:59):
makes a snap decision to hide his body. Now for
that to happen for the police theory to be right,
a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum
has to walk down here, find William's body and.
Speaker 8 (15:13):
Reaction quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It, or because we know it's a quiet street, you
can hear.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It's a quiet street, so.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
There's no audible reaction that either her mum or William's
sister notice. She has to decide not to call for help,
So that's a very quick decision. There's no triple zero
call at that point. And she has to decide to
hide William's body rather than seeking any kind of medical attention.
(15:42):
And William's sister is also in the house, so she's four.
The foster mum has to decide whether to bring her
mum and William's sister into the conspiracy and get them
to lie with her about what's happened to William.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
Or avoid them. Final yet that anything has happened.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So William's sister, who's four, is interviewed more than once
by specialist detectives and she gives the same version, which
is that William is playing Daddy Tiger. So if it
is a conspiracy, William's foster mother then has to pretend
to look for William herself. She has to convince her
own mother what happened. The foster mother later tells police
(16:24):
that she runs around this garden and the foster Mum's
calling out, I can't hear you. I need to see you.
I need to hear your voice because I can't see you.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I can't hear you. Where are you? And he was nowhere, and.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
At some point, according to the police theory, she walked
up to the carport just here around the house, and
when she got there, she loaded William's body into her
mum's Gray MASD three. According to the police, so.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So far, we are.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Eleven minutes since the time when William is last known
to be alive. Okay, William's foster mother has always denied
any involvement in his disappearance, so at this point it's
worth stepping back and asking who are the police coming
(17:32):
up with this theory. William's disappearance is currently being investigated
by detectives from the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team.
It's part of the bigger Homicide Squad and it exists
to go back to those old cases that weren't solved
the first time to see if anything was missed, if
(17:53):
any mistakes were made, or if new technology, particularly DNA,
could lead to a breakthrough. And these are serious cases,
possible murders, so the detectives working for Unsolved are expected
to be good, but their work is not perfect. In
(18:13):
twenty thirteen, the year before William went missing, New South
Wales Police discovered evidence relating to twenty two unsolved homicide
cases sitting in a basement. No one seemed to know
it was there. That led to the then senior officer
on the Unsolved Homicide Team to write a damning internal
report on just how much evidence was missing, scattered, misfiled
(18:40):
or lost. The report was confidential at the time. It's
marked through official use only. It said one search recovered
eight entire palettes of evidence that had been improperly stored.
Many of these items may relate to unsolved homicide cases.
(19:00):
Many of these poorly secured items included homicide victim's clothing,
post mortem and crime scene specimen swabs, meaning detectives today
didn't know what was missing and DNA analysis had not
been carried out.
Speaker 10 (19:23):
One of the reasons to write this document was to
let command know what the issue was and the problems
was that we faced.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
This is the former officer who wrote that report, giving
evidence that the same inquiry you heard at the start
of the episode.
Speaker 10 (19:41):
All of the investigators in the office were aware of
the problems regarding retention and proper exhibit handling procedures.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
That officer didn't get to see if those problems were
ever fixed. He ended up leaving the police for medical
reasons shortly after submitting his report. The current boss of
the New South Wales Police Homicide Squad told the inquiry
those problems still existed when he took over in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 9 (20:13):
Yes, but we're talking about certain cases. We're not talking
about every case, but yes.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
It was known.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Detective Superintendent Daniel Doherty is a stout stolid, gray bearded policeman.
He looks like a safe pair of hands. But when questioned,
he didn't know how many unsolved homicide cases were affected,
and was.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
It well known that these problems may have existed in
relation to a large number of unsolved homicides.
Speaker 9 (20:42):
I wouldn't say large number.
Speaker 7 (20:44):
Was it well known that these problems arose in a
number of cases, and nobody knew how many cases the
problems arise in.
Speaker 9 (20:51):
I think that now, with the work of the unsol
homicides to them, that would be a small number of cases.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
What's the basis on which you tell the commissioner that
the number of cases that suffer from this problem is
a small number rather than an unknown number, or it
is an unknown number.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
So there's an unknown number of cases where the unsolved
homicide team don't know what evidence they're missing, and that
was still the case last year. That's ten years after
that discovery of evidence relating to those twenty two unsolved
homicides in a police basement that first brought this issue
(21:33):
to light.
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Are you aware of those problems having been addressed?
Speaker 9 (21:41):
What's been an ongoing issue. I know that there's been
some reviews of some record services, and I know there's
reviews in writing to exhibits, and that's been an ongoing issue.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
The problems were well known as problems within the Unsolved
Homicides team when you started in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 9 (22:01):
Yes, well they brought to my.
Speaker 7 (22:02):
Tench and it's well known that there's still problems within
the unsolved homicide.
Speaker 9 (22:06):
Team in terms of those issues have been riseeous.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So the Unsolved Homicide Team is not perfect. There's problems
with record keeping, missing exhibits, and an inability to fix
those problems over a whole decade. But that itself doesn't
mean that the investigation into William's disappearance has faced the
same problems. Back to the police theory that William's foster
(22:35):
mother drove his body away from the house in her
mother's Gray Master three.
Speaker 8 (22:52):
She described driving very slowly.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, William's foster mother doesn't mention this drive in her
initial statement to police on the day that William goes missing,
but she does describe it in a video walkthrough of
what happened the police recorded with her about six days later.
And there's been different reports about whether this drive was
(23:16):
made before William's foster father came home or after but
if you look at William's foster father's witness statements, he
doesn't mention the drive. So you've got to think it's
more likely that the foster mum makes this drive before
he gets home.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So she drives down here.
Speaker 8 (23:35):
She describes, with her head out the window.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
She's looking out the window, she's calling for Williams. And
yet so she's driven down and she turns right here
now on the drive, Williams foster mum tells police that
on this road, so it's almost a single lane road,
it's narrow, there's no road markings, there's trees on either side.
(23:58):
She describes this semi trailer coming down really fast.
Speaker 8 (24:01):
And I pulled. He think he thought I pulled over
because he acknowledged me by saying thanks for pulling over.
But I pulled over because I've just got my head
out the window looking for William. Yeah, she said she
wasn't pulled over, she was just just driving so slowly.
Doing this driver, it does make sense to me that
this is how you might look. You're covering a lot
of ground here, and.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
You can imagine that if you are looking for a kid,
You've got a thick bush on either side of the
road you're desperately looking for you know that red or
that blue of the Spider Man's suit. You're shouting his
name as you go, and it's a paniced response like
(24:43):
this isn't a You know, you're not in your rational
mind if you're looking for a kid, But equally you're
not in your rational mind if you're trying to cover
something up. But she gets here, and according to the
foster mother, she stops and I.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
Get to the riding school and I just think it's
my here.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So this is the corner of Batar Creek Road and
this dirt track that's called Cobb and Co.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Road.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
So this is where the place are alleging the body
could have been left. They've specifically called.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Out this specifically in court. They have suggested the body
of William Tirell was left here. But if you get out,
I don't look.
Speaker 8 (25:37):
Very open.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It is very open, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So just testing the police theory if you were trying
to hide a body. When you get here, there are
riding school. So there's several buildings maybe one hundred meters
away overlooking where we are now. There's another house on
the other side of the road. A second houset there
and a third one there, all within eyeshot. When if
(26:07):
you hadn't turned right at the bottom of Benner and
Drive and you'd turn the left, or if you'd continue
down this road another few hundred meters, you'd just be
in forest on either side. There would be no houses
looking at you. So this spot here is probably the
worst place to try and hide anything if you wanted
(26:28):
to commit a criminal act.
Speaker 8 (26:38):
If we're working on the theory that this driver goes
before the husband.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Comes home, which seems most likely.
Speaker 8 (26:45):
It does seem most likely if we're working on that theory,
we don't have much time to bury a boy.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And also, to be blunt, burying a body's quite hard work,
and there's no suggestion that there's any digging tools in
the car, So the best you're going to do at
this point, if you are hiding a child's body, the
best you're going to do is carry it. Also, she's panicking,
and maybe panicking explains why you'd pick this spot, which
(27:13):
is in sight of several houses. But if you had
stopped here and you tried to hide something, you could
walk what's that fifty meters and leave the body behind
(27:38):
one of these piles of leaves and sticks. But it's
not going to be very well hidden. So if you
wanted to hide it properly, and I know this is.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
Morehag fuck, so it's get some it gets very unworkable
very quickly.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, if you wanted to hide something as obvious as
a child's body in a bright red out in a
bright red outfit, you have to go another ten meters
maybe into the bush, and that's.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Hard walking and you're carrying a body.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
You're carrying something that's heavy. So but maybe you do it.
It's not impossible.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
But either way.
Speaker 8 (28:29):
You notice that.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yeah, I'll show you what this is. Actually, this rake
is a memorial left by the police when they did
the big forensic search and just a few years ago,
and it.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Did have this message on it, we will never to
get home.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
It's hard to read now and there's a date, but
it's Warrior left by police who when they came down here,
did search this area. They ripped the bush apart, they
dug up tons of soil. They were using tools like
this to just scrape through everything. And if they found anything,
(29:16):
they've never made it public. And the detectives are Adama
(29:37):
when questioned in court about this location. So one of
the detectives on the strike force says that the police
do believe William's body was disposed in this area on
the corner of those two roads. And he's asked in
court if he's lying about whether the police know the location,
and he says he's not, and then he says, I
(29:57):
formed the view that the foster mother knows where will
Interil is, which does lead you to the question, well,
if you believe that, then why have you not been
able to find him?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
But we don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So the faster mon then drives back into Benerine Drive. Okay,
so she says, she drives up here, she says, she
tells police, she brings the car back up, and she
(30:35):
just runs out and she looks for him again and
she's running around. How long have we been.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
We've been twenty six minutes.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So if William was last seen at nine thirty seven,
that's about ten o'clock now.
Speaker 8 (30:54):
Yeah, but you're discounting their old time player.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
All of yeah, you're having a cup of tea. We
know that at about ten point thirty, Williams foster father
sends a text to his foster mother saying I'll be
home in five yea and he is home, and he
is home within five minutes. But the foster mother deletes
that message. So at the time when she's on her
evidence running around looking for William, she deletes the message
(31:21):
from William's foster father. Now she tells police that that's habit.
She just deletes messages as they come in. And it
is true that other messages on her phone are deleted.
And there's a part of me that gets that. I
delete emails as quickly as I can. And she is
from personal Experience office. She's a really organized, a really
efficient person. Does it mean anything that she deleted that message.
(31:49):
If the police theory is right and she's at this
point involved in a conspiracy to dispose of William's body,
what does she gain by deleting that message?
Speaker 8 (32:03):
Hard to tell And I think also hard to read
too much into the actions of someone under extreme stress.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Either way, Yeah, because on the police theory, she has
to decide in that moment whether or not to bring
him into the conspiracy. Either if the police are right
and she is trying to hide the fact of William's death,
she has to decide very very quickly whether she is
(32:31):
going to lie to him that William has just disappeared,
or tell him the truth and convince him very quickly
to lie with her. The husband gets home about ten
point thirty three or soon after he arrives home where
we are now, and he pulls into this driveway here,
(32:53):
and the foster mother walks towards him from the veranda area,
so that side of that house there, and she asks him,
have you seen William? And the foster father's response, on
his evidence and her evidence, is that he says, what
are you talking about? Why would I have William? The
(33:14):
foster mother tells her husband that William's missing, and he
takes off.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
I then said, where is he?
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Where?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Where?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Where's he going? She said he was he was here
at five minutes ago here, five minutes ago, yep.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I can't find him.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I was calling his name, William, Carl, William.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Where are you? She said that he was.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
He was last saying around here, yep. But I thought, okay, well,
you know, if he was down the road, you possibly
would have seen him.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You've checked that dollhouse over there, and.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Then absolutely went through there, went through there, went unnath
their house, went around their house, went in there because
they went home. I went in there in there carport.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
So he's running all around there, and then he's running
in wider and wider circles up and down the street here,
and he says he kept coming back to the house
to check for any updates.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
So has William come back?
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Yeah, they've got a caravan in there.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
It's all locked away.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
I went in there.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I checked on and was locked.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Caravan was locked, yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Absolutely, And I was looking in everything I possibly could.
I then couldn't find him. I then found there's a
walking trial or a trail that leads to the cemetery.
I followed that. You know, I was still looking for
things on the ground, if there's something, you know, I've
lost a shoe or something like that.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
You were yelling all this all.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
The time, all time, yelling for him all the time.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I remember when I've lost, even for a moment, one
of our kids, it's like the whole world is shaking.
It's that much emotion, it's that much adrenaline and panic.
So I can imagine him running literally up and down
this street looking for William. But then about ten four,
so just over an hour after that photograph was taken
(35:04):
the Foster month, she runs down the road here to
a neighbour's house, asking if the neighbor has seen a
little boy in a Spider Man outfit. But the significance
of that is, from that moment on, the foster mother
is with someone from outside her family, someone who has
(35:25):
no reason to lie to protect her. So we know
that from that moment on, she's not hiding a body. Yeah, So,
having walked it through, what do you think about the
police theory?
Speaker 8 (35:40):
Yeah, it's doable, it is doable, it's.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Tied, it's doable.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
But I don't think it makes a lot of sense.
And the thing that got me was driving down to
the corner of those two roads that the police say
they believe William's foster mother hid his body. You're right
in front of the ride school. You're in view with one,
two three other houses. When if you wanted to hide
(36:07):
something and you'd driven another two hundred meters, there'd be nothing.
They'd just be forest. So why pick that point?
Speaker 8 (36:16):
But it's entirely possible that we're looking at a puzzle
that's missing a lot of pieces, and that the place
could have pieces.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But if they have pieces, why haven't they done anything
about it? Why has she not been charged. The one
person who does know what other puzzle pieces the police
hold is the man leading the investigation, Detective Chief Inspector
(36:46):
David Laidlaw. He took over more than five years ago,
so back in twenty nineteen, which was months after the
public announcement of a separate plan to overhaul the way
the Unsolved Homicide Team deals with its backlog of cold cases.
It was announced in an exclusive story in Sydney's Daily
(37:09):
Telegraph newspaper that promised that every murder mystery to have
baffled New South Wales police in the past forty years
will be revisited in one of the biggest ever shakeups
of cold case homicides in the state. The paper said
that cases that could be solved would be prioritized and
(37:29):
another internal police report also marked for official use only,
so the officer in charge of the process would be
David Laidlaw.
Speaker 6 (37:43):
There was a time frame given of three months for
the review to be undertaken. However, we identified that some
matters have been out there for three years.
Speaker 7 (37:52):
And in the last five years since the twenty eighteen
system was introduced, there are still one hundred and twenty
five that have not been triarged into on hundred and
ninety one that have not been reviewed, and that number
of cases that have been neither triaged nor reviewed. They
may include cases from the seventies and eighties, the cold Yes,
And at the moment, is this the case? The review
(38:14):
committee receives five to ten reviews every three.
Speaker 6 (38:18):
To six months approximately years.
Speaker 7 (38:22):
So that's fewer than twenty in a year.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Is that right?
Speaker 7 (38:27):
So of the four hundred and forty two undetected cases,
it'll take twenty two years to review all of them
on that average.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
Yes, it could do.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
When you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,
were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that
were appreciated within that team? Was that notorious within the
unsold Homicide Team?
Speaker 6 (39:02):
It's a rather strong word notorious. I would say it was.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Known, well known.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (39:08):
Therefore, the reconciliation plan was to get all exhibits for
forensic analysis to be back into one place, which is
the Metropolitan Exhibited and Property Center.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
And that project was underway, was it when you joined
the team?
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (39:26):
And have that project been completed?
Speaker 6 (39:31):
I'm unable to tell the commissioner.
Speaker 7 (39:33):
That have you received written updates as to the progress
of that project. If you haven't received any written update
as to the progress of that project since you commenced,
that's correct.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yes, either person who would be expected to receive the updates, Yes, sir?
Have you asked for them? No, sir, why not?
Speaker 6 (39:56):
I can't give the commissioner a reason why not.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
The second voice, the one who's just started asking questions,
is the inquiry's head, a Supreme Court judge.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
These are all people's lives and people's families lives.
Speaker 6 (40:10):
I appreciate that, and.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
As anyone, as far as you know, ever put to
the Commissioner that some specially founded project is urgently needed
to get a grip on all of these unsolved cases.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
David says he does know requests for missing exhibits from
unsolved cases were sent out to different parts of the
police force. That happened in twenty seventeen, so seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Now where are the replies kept?
Speaker 6 (40:38):
I don't know. I can find I would burn what
we call our record management system.
Speaker 7 (40:44):
Is there someone responsible for collating the replies and reviewing them?
Speaker 6 (40:51):
Well, I suppose responsibility now at rest.
Speaker 7 (40:53):
With me, But you haven't conducted that exercise now have
you taken any steps towards reviewing the responses that have
been received?
Speaker 6 (41:04):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 7 (41:05):
The physical exhibits are, of course critically important to unsolved homicides.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
Of course, yes, thank you m Seku for a I'll
a journal team.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
To be honest, I struggle to get my head around
what David's saying. Unsolved homicides are real people, real grieving families.
But New South Wales Police is missing exhibits, missing documents
by the palette load, and the detective in charge of
going back through all these cases says he doesn't know
(41:39):
basic things like where they keep replies to requests for information,
or what's in those replies, or how big the problem
really is. I get David Laidlaw's busy, among other things.
He's running the investigation into William's disappearance, But the record
of the New South Wales Police isn't actually perfect there too.
(42:04):
If the current police theory of what happened is William's
foster mother drove his body away in her mum's gray
mas to three, then surely it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
The police at.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
The time didn't examine that car until the twentieth of
September twenty fourteen, five days after William was reported missing.
I'd like to ask David about all of this, but
I've been told no. Instead, New South Wales Police have
given us a short written statement saying police are quote
(42:38):
unable to provide comment or interviews as the matter is
before the coroner, meaning the inquest into William's disappearance, which
is due to start again next week.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
So if anyone out there is thinking I might have
gotten away with this, what's your message?
Speaker 3 (42:53):
They haven't, though that didn't stop David giving this interview
to Sky News in twenty twenty one, when the inquest
was also ongoing.
Speaker 6 (43:02):
We will continue with this investigation as long as it takes.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Do you believe you know who the person is?
Speaker 6 (43:07):
We believe we can identify who it may be or
some of the circumstances of him going missing.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yes, you know what happened, don't you? You know who
it is?
Speaker 6 (43:18):
We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes, is
and there's a range of thoughts of what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes, and who was responsible?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
We started this episode talking about the lives that have
been damaged so far by the police investigation. The families
of those nineteen cases where reports have sat on David
Laidlaw's desk for a year unopened. Right now, other lives
are at risk of harm. Also because today only one
of two things can be right. Either the police theory
(43:52):
is correct and William's foster mother disposed of his body
and has deceived everyone over the past ten years when
she's been publicly campaigning for more attention, not less, on
this case. Or the police are wrong and William's foster
mother has been wrongly and tragically described as a suspected
(44:13):
criminal in front of her friends and family and the
entire country. That's the reality of unsolved homicide investigations.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
The stakes are very, very.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
High, and which of those two theories has evidence to
support It might become clear next week when the inquest
into William's disappearance resumes its public hearings, and we will
be there reporting on what happens in the next episode.
Because one thing walking through the police theory with Nina
(44:47):
has made obvious to me is you don't know what
you don't know? What do you feel about the foster parents.
Speaker 8 (45:02):
Now in that timeline. For the police theory to be true,
you'd have to be a psychopath to be able to
react that quickly.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Because at the very least you are seeing a child's body,
deciding not to seek help, picking that child's body up,
hiding it, and then driving away to hide it further,
with the intention almost certainly of coming back to move
it again because it wasn't found.
Speaker 8 (45:37):
Breaking down sobbing in front of other.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
People, including the people who know you best, your mum,
your husband, William's sister. The other alternative is that William's
foster mother sits her mum down and says, this is
what's happened. William has died and we need to hide
that fact, and she deals with her mum's grief, shock,
horror and turns that into a willing conspirator.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Then she does that again.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
With William's four year old sister and turns a four
year old child into someone who will convincingly light a
police more than once for several years. And then she
either lies to her own husband and has done for
the past ten years because he's defended her when examined
by police, or she also convinces him.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
And at that point you've got four people hiding a
secret without cracking for a decade. Yeah, under extreme pressure.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Yeah, but you know what here in this cars made
me think, like it's so obvious when a car drives
up here because there's no other traffic that the other
option is that someone takes William and drives off with him.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And listening to that, you just would somebody not have heard.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
That's next time on The Witness, William Tyrell. If you
know anything about William's disappearance, please contact crime Stoppers. There's
a number in the show notes for this series, but
if there's anything you want to tell us, you can
email Witness at news dot com dot Au or I'm
(47:48):
on social media and it can be completely confidential. A
lot of different people have been involved in making this series.
Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound
design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,
Nicholas Adams, Jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson.
(48:09):
Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our
lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at News dot com
dot Au is Kerry Warren.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
I'm Dan Box
Okay, I called David Laidlaw.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:09):
David Laidlaw is the detective leading the investigation into William
Tihan's disappearance.
Speaker 4 (00:14):
How would you take your oath for an information?
Speaker 5 (00:17):
Cudney.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
He's tall and heavy set, with white hair and a
thick white mustache.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
And your occupation.
Speaker 6 (00:24):
I'm a detective chief inspector and you're with the homicide squad.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
That's correct, Thank you. David's what you might call a
veteran policeman.
Speaker 7 (00:36):
You've been with the force since the late seventies.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
That's correct, meaning he's been a cop for longer than
I have been alive.
Speaker 7 (00:47):
And you've been a detective since nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 6 (00:52):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Train And he's been a detective investigating serious crimes since
I was in primary school and still getting pocket money.
Speaker 7 (01:01):
And you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,
is that right?
Speaker 6 (01:05):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
His job today is as Investigation Coordinator of the New
South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team, roughly forty detectives whose
job it is to go back over cases that others
couldn't solve and solve them. Every one of those cases
represents a grieving family who might have waited decades for
(01:28):
an answer. New South Wales Police has around eight hundred
unsolved cases on its books, although the numbers are a
bit uncertain.
Speaker 7 (01:38):
And you say that as at the date of your statement,
there were eight hundred and twenty nine of those cases.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (01:44):
Yes, the figures provided by New South Wales Police as
at yesterday for that period is seven hundred and ninety.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Yes, I can assist.
Speaker 7 (01:57):
Now, do you know what's happened to those files?
Speaker 4 (02:00):
No? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
He should know.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
That's why David's being questioned by this special Commission of
Inquiry held last year to investigate the police response to
specific hate crimes, because it's his job to oversee the
review of those unsolved cases. The way it works is
another cop takes a first look at the file, called
a triage. They then report to David, who decides if
(02:28):
the case will be formally reviewed. Only then can it
be reinvestigated. And all of this can take weeks or
months or years.
Speaker 7 (02:40):
Two hundred and thirteen have not yet been triarched.
Speaker 6 (02:43):
Now with their figures should be one hundred and twenty five.
I see, So.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
That's one hundred and twenty five possible unsolved murders. The
Unsolved Homicide Team have never looked at.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Some of those cases, maybe decades off.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
They could be is The Unsolved Homicide Team was established
back in two thousand and four, but the triage is
just the first stage of their work.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
Now.
Speaker 7 (03:11):
According to these figures, there are two hundred and ninety
one cases where it appears at least that no review
has been completed.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
That's correct.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
One hundred and twenty five cases plus two hundred and
ninety one cases equals quite a backlog. That's hundreds of
possible murders grieving families. David says, it's a resource issue.
Speaker 6 (03:36):
You have to understand the resource implications. We don't have
enough people to do them. Mean enough people are made
by people who are qualified.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
At this point, the head of the inquiry interrupts him.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Out of more resource has been requested.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
No, so David hasn't asked for any help.
Speaker 6 (03:57):
That's correct. But I know there's nineteen three hours ready
for me to vid. I haven't had the opportunity to
vid yet for how long since? Since I'd say since June,
I would say.
Speaker 7 (04:13):
Last year, so that there was nineteen where somebody has
completed a review and sent it to you to assist,
I've been sitting on your desk.
Speaker 6 (04:22):
For over twelve months, that's correct.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
Yes, when do you expect to get to them?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Just to stress, that's nineteen families waiting maybe decades for
an answer to what happened, not knowing the file detailing
their loved ones possible murder has been triaged by a detective,
then sat unopened on David's desk for the past year.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
And have you drawn this to the Commissioner's attention that
you need more resources one way or the other?
Speaker 6 (04:57):
No, I haven't, sir.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Why not if the work is that important or does
it not require urgent attention?
Speaker 6 (05:05):
It does require a little.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
Well, then why hasn't somebody said something to the commissioner
instead of sitting quietly leaving files collecting dust on the desk.
Speaker 6 (05:14):
If I can reiterate what I said before, is that
we're going from a backlog of we've still got treo
as forms that have been completed that we cannot get
out of even the review because there's so many of them.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Do I work on the basis that the present Commissioner
is entirely unaware of the resources issues that you currently face.
Is that right?
Speaker 6 (05:35):
That's correct?
Speaker 4 (05:36):
So well, it is remarkable form assosa, Yes, that's true.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
The inquiry's final report set it is difficult to see
how these resource issues could provide a justification for Detective
Chief Inspector laid Law to fail to perform his own
function in relation to these nineteen cases. David said part
of the reason was he was busy investigating the disappearance
(06:08):
of William Tyrol. He's still investigating William's disappearance. I'm Dan
box and from news dot com dot Au. This is
Witness William tyrrel Episode four. The police theory. Those nineteen
(06:36):
files David laid Law's not had time to open, and
the nineteen grieving families they represent, I can't help but
see them as part of the fallout from the investigation
into William's disappearance. And there are others like William's biological family,
where his grandmother says she lost her son over the
(06:57):
past ten years when they haven't had any answers and
she lost herself as well. David is still working to
solve the case, though, and the police have now set
their sights on William's foster mother.
Speaker 6 (07:13):
Where are we.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
This is the house where William went missing.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
So Nina, who's the producer on this podcast, and I
have come to the house where William was reported missing
to try walking through the police's theory of what happened
to him. So this is what the police now think
happened to William, and we've pieced this together from the
cross examination of their new suspects in the New South
(07:38):
Wales Crime Commission and the cross examination of one of
the detectives investigating William's disappearance in court. In court, that
detective confirmed that this is one of their theories and
he said the police believe they know where William's body
was disposed of, and that he's formed the view that
(07:58):
William's foster mother knows where William Tool is. The house
where William was reported missing is a big, two story
building at the top of a dead end road called
Bennerum Drive. The neighbour's houses are all set back from
the road and each house is surrounded by a wide garden.
(08:20):
It looks like a nice place to live, blue sky,
green grass, the quiet, but behind the houses on either
side is forest. The last known photograph of William Tool
was taken at nine thirty seven on the morning he
went missing, and he's wearing his Spider Man suit on
(08:40):
this verandah of the house. The photo is taken by
his foster mother, and you can see William's happy. His
mouth is open like he's laughing or he's excited or
he's roaring. And we know the foster mother's there because
she took the photograph, and we know that her mum
is there, but the foster father, her husband, he's left
(09:00):
the home earlier that morning. He's gone to make a
work call. He needs internet reception to do that.
Speaker 8 (09:05):
And just to say, we do have a point in
time for when he left because there was CCTV, right.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
Yeah, So all of that's been confirmed, but the uncertainty
is over the time of the photographic could be out
by two hours, so that would make it seven thirty seven,
not nine thirty seven. The foster mum told police when
she was asked about this, that she didn't know how
to set the camera. But the police and later the
inquest have looked at this. There's been forensic examination and
(09:32):
both accept that nine thirty seven is accurate.
Speaker 9 (09:36):
And I look at that picture and I just think.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Minutes, minutes and our world has changed.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
This is William's foster mother from an interview with both
foster parents recorded by New South Wales police months after
he was reported missing. So Evan, let's start the timer
now after the photograph's taken. The foster mother tells police
(10:06):
that William Tirell did more drawing on the verandah, and
she remembers playing with dice with him. She was teaching
the kids how to count, and William's sister came over
and she wanted to join in, and William withdrew.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So that's all his foster mum's account.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
She's told police that William then got bored and he
tried different activities, including a game that they called Daddy Tiger.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So William was roaring at the grown ups.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
But the foster mother tells police that at some point
William Tirell jumped down off the deck on his own.
Speaker 8 (10:41):
He's got a really good sense of adventure, but he's
got a really good understanding of his limitations.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
He's not not a wanderer, not a child to run away.
Speaker 8 (10:51):
Always had us in earshot or eyesight.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
She says.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
She told him to put his shoes on, but he's
barefoot in the photograph. But the thing is, there's been
a whole bunch of controversy about this photo. There's been
headlines in the newspaper about did he have shoes on?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Didn't he have shoes on? And does that mean somebody
is lying.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
The foster mother says she told him to put his
shoes on because there might be bindi's in the grass.
Speaker 8 (11:18):
Yeah, so that's that was the argument that was made,
that there weren't bedis.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
There was a whole bunch of controversy online in the
newspapers about whether or not.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
It was bindy season.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
We're at the house and there's a bindi and it's
that time of year.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
So look the long and the short of that is.
I think it's all irrelevant. William could put his own
shoes on, and his shoes.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Had velcro straps, so.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Whatever the foster mother said, he could have put shoes on.
At the time, William is said by his foster mother
to have jumped down off this verandah and run off
around the corner of the house. He's running up and
roaring and running away, and she says she asked William,
can you see Daddy's car? Because his foster father was
(12:05):
due to come back at any moment.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
He's not a kid that would just run into something.
Speaker 8 (12:14):
He would stop and think, he would consider what he
would do before he would do anything else.
Speaker 5 (12:18):
Yeah, Yeah, and sid stay within within distance, knowing how
far away he was from.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Us, and the foster mum remembers that her tea was hot,
and she remembers drinking some of it, and she remembers
hearing William row and then she told police, I hear nothing.
Speaker 6 (12:39):
I can't hear him. Why why can't I hear him?
Speaker 8 (12:43):
And I walked around. It was just two meters three
meters away from where we were sitting, and I've just
walked out and I just see nothing.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
And she goes around the corner of the house. I
don't know if she's on the funda or if she's
on the garden next to it, but she's moved around
the corner of the house so she can see down
the slope from the back of the property.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And I'm yelling out, William, where are you? You need
to talk to Mommy, tell me where you are. I
can't see you, I can't hear you. Where are you?
Speaker 3 (13:22):
And she says she remembers standing there, just staring into space,
thinking why can't I hear him? Why can't I see him?
Why can't I see the red through the bushes down there?
So the red is the Spider Man suit that we
know he was wearing because it was in that photograph,
and she says, she goes back to her mum and
she says, he's not here. William's not here. Now this
(13:48):
is where we start to lose the timing. She tells
the police that the gap between the photograph being taken
to William and her going to look for William was
maybe five ten minutes. But she's quest on this at
different times by the police, and she's inconsistent on exactly
how long it was, and at one point the police
actually ask her. They say, sometimes five minutes doesn't always
(14:10):
feel like five minutes, which is fair, and.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
She accepts that.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
So let's say five minutes for playing the dice, for
William getting bored, for running off and back for playing
Daddy Tiger being told can you see Daddy's car, and
the foster mother realizing she can't hear him. So the
minimum estimate that she gives so five minutes. If the
photo was at nine thirty seven, it's now nine forty
(14:36):
two and on our timer. We've been six in a
bit minutes. But the police theory is that William went
around the other side of the house and fell off
the verandah here, and that at this point the foster
mother found William's body and these ferns and the foliage
around under the verandah, that he was dead, but she
(14:59):
makes a snap decision to hide his body. Now for
that to happen for the police theory to be right,
a lot has to happen very quickly. The foster mum
has to walk down here, find William's body and.
Speaker 8 (15:13):
Reaction quietly enough that no one in the neighborhood hears.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
It, or because we know it's a quiet street, you
can hear.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
It's a quiet street, so.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
There's no audible reaction that either her mum or William's
sister notice. She has to decide not to call for help,
So that's a very quick decision. There's no triple zero
call at that point. And she has to decide to
hide William's body rather than seeking any kind of medical attention.
(15:42):
And William's sister is also in the house, so she's four.
The foster mum has to decide whether to bring her
mum and William's sister into the conspiracy and get them
to lie with her about what's happened to William.
Speaker 8 (15:57):
Or avoid them. Final yet that anything has happened.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
So William's sister, who's four, is interviewed more than once
by specialist detectives and she gives the same version, which
is that William is playing Daddy Tiger. So if it
is a conspiracy, William's foster mother then has to pretend
to look for William herself. She has to convince her
own mother what happened. The foster mother later tells police
(16:24):
that she runs around this garden and the foster Mum's
calling out, I can't hear you. I need to see you.
I need to hear your voice because I can't see you.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
I can't hear you. Where are you? And he was nowhere, and.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
At some point, according to the police theory, she walked
up to the carport just here around the house, and
when she got there, she loaded William's body into her
mum's Gray MASD three. According to the police, so.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So far, we are.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Eleven minutes since the time when William is last known
to be alive. Okay, William's foster mother has always denied
any involvement in his disappearance, so at this point it's
worth stepping back and asking who are the police coming
(17:32):
up with this theory. William's disappearance is currently being investigated
by detectives from the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Team.
It's part of the bigger Homicide Squad and it exists
to go back to those old cases that weren't solved
the first time to see if anything was missed, if
(17:53):
any mistakes were made, or if new technology, particularly DNA,
could lead to a breakthrough. And these are serious cases,
possible murders, so the detectives working for Unsolved are expected
to be good, but their work is not perfect. In
(18:13):
twenty thirteen, the year before William went missing, New South
Wales Police discovered evidence relating to twenty two unsolved homicide
cases sitting in a basement. No one seemed to know
it was there. That led to the then senior officer
on the Unsolved Homicide Team to write a damning internal
report on just how much evidence was missing, scattered, misfiled
(18:40):
or lost. The report was confidential at the time. It's
marked through official use only. It said one search recovered
eight entire palettes of evidence that had been improperly stored.
Many of these items may relate to unsolved homicide cases.
(19:00):
Many of these poorly secured items included homicide victim's clothing,
post mortem and crime scene specimen swabs, meaning detectives today
didn't know what was missing and DNA analysis had not
been carried out.
Speaker 10 (19:23):
One of the reasons to write this document was to
let command know what the issue was and the problems
was that we faced.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
This is the former officer who wrote that report, giving
evidence that the same inquiry you heard at the start
of the episode.
Speaker 10 (19:41):
All of the investigators in the office were aware of
the problems regarding retention and proper exhibit handling procedures.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
That officer didn't get to see if those problems were
ever fixed. He ended up leaving the police for medical
reasons shortly after submitting his report. The current boss of
the New South Wales Police Homicide Squad told the inquiry
those problems still existed when he took over in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 9 (20:13):
Yes, but we're talking about certain cases. We're not talking
about every case, but yes.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
It was known.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Detective Superintendent Daniel Doherty is a stout stolid, gray bearded policeman.
He looks like a safe pair of hands. But when questioned,
he didn't know how many unsolved homicide cases were affected,
and was.
Speaker 7 (20:35):
It well known that these problems may have existed in
relation to a large number of unsolved homicides.
Speaker 9 (20:42):
I wouldn't say large number.
Speaker 7 (20:44):
Was it well known that these problems arose in a
number of cases, and nobody knew how many cases the
problems arise in.
Speaker 9 (20:51):
I think that now, with the work of the unsol
homicides to them, that would be a small number of cases.
Speaker 7 (21:01):
What's the basis on which you tell the commissioner that
the number of cases that suffer from this problem is
a small number rather than an unknown number, or it
is an unknown number.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
So there's an unknown number of cases where the unsolved
homicide team don't know what evidence they're missing, and that
was still the case last year. That's ten years after
that discovery of evidence relating to those twenty two unsolved
homicides in a police basement that first brought this issue
(21:33):
to light.
Speaker 7 (21:34):
Are you aware of those problems having been addressed?
Speaker 9 (21:41):
What's been an ongoing issue. I know that there's been
some reviews of some record services, and I know there's
reviews in writing to exhibits, and that's been an ongoing issue.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
The problems were well known as problems within the Unsolved
Homicides team when you started in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 9 (22:01):
Yes, well they brought to my.
Speaker 7 (22:02):
Tench and it's well known that there's still problems within
the unsolved homicide.
Speaker 9 (22:06):
Team in terms of those issues have been riseeous.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
So the Unsolved Homicide Team is not perfect. There's problems
with record keeping, missing exhibits, and an inability to fix
those problems over a whole decade. But that itself doesn't
mean that the investigation into William's disappearance has faced the
same problems. Back to the police theory that William's foster
(22:35):
mother drove his body away from the house in her
mother's Gray Master three.
Speaker 8 (22:52):
She described driving very slowly.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, William's foster mother doesn't mention this drive in her
initial statement to police on the day that William goes missing,
but she does describe it in a video walkthrough of
what happened the police recorded with her about six days later.
And there's been different reports about whether this drive was
(23:16):
made before William's foster father came home or after but
if you look at William's foster father's witness statements, he
doesn't mention the drive. So you've got to think it's
more likely that the foster mum makes this drive before
he gets home.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
So she drives down here.
Speaker 8 (23:35):
She describes, with her head out the window.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
She's looking out the window, she's calling for Williams. And
yet so she's driven down and she turns right here
now on the drive, Williams foster mum tells police that
on this road, so it's almost a single lane road,
it's narrow, there's no road markings, there's trees on either side.
(23:58):
She describes this semi trailer coming down really fast.
Speaker 8 (24:01):
And I pulled. He think he thought I pulled over
because he acknowledged me by saying thanks for pulling over.
But I pulled over because I've just got my head
out the window looking for William. Yeah, she said she
wasn't pulled over, she was just just driving so slowly.
Doing this driver, it does make sense to me that
this is how you might look. You're covering a lot
of ground here, and.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
You can imagine that if you are looking for a kid,
You've got a thick bush on either side of the
road you're desperately looking for you know that red or
that blue of the Spider Man's suit. You're shouting his
name as you go, and it's a paniced response like
(24:43):
this isn't a You know, you're not in your rational
mind if you're looking for a kid, But equally you're
not in your rational mind if you're trying to cover
something up. But she gets here, and according to the
foster mother, she stops and I.
Speaker 8 (24:57):
Get to the riding school and I just think it's
my here.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
So this is the corner of Batar Creek Road and
this dirt track that's called Cobb and Co.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Road.
Speaker 8 (25:11):
So this is where the place are alleging the body
could have been left. They've specifically called.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Out this specifically in court. They have suggested the body
of William Tirell was left here. But if you get out,
I don't look.
Speaker 8 (25:37):
Very open.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
It is very open, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
So just testing the police theory if you were trying
to hide a body. When you get here, there are
riding school. So there's several buildings maybe one hundred meters
away overlooking where we are now. There's another house on
the other side of the road. A second houset there
and a third one there, all within eyeshot. When if
(26:07):
you hadn't turned right at the bottom of Benner and
Drive and you'd turn the left, or if you'd continue
down this road another few hundred meters, you'd just be
in forest on either side. There would be no houses
looking at you. So this spot here is probably the
worst place to try and hide anything if you wanted
(26:28):
to commit a criminal act.
Speaker 8 (26:38):
If we're working on the theory that this driver goes
before the husband.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Comes home, which seems most likely.
Speaker 8 (26:45):
It does seem most likely if we're working on that theory,
we don't have much time to bury a boy.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
And also, to be blunt, burying a body's quite hard work,
and there's no suggestion that there's any digging tools in
the car, So the best you're going to do at
this point, if you are hiding a child's body, the
best you're going to do is carry it. Also, she's panicking,
and maybe panicking explains why you'd pick this spot, which
(27:13):
is in sight of several houses. But if you had
stopped here and you tried to hide something, you could
walk what's that fifty meters and leave the body behind
(27:38):
one of these piles of leaves and sticks. But it's
not going to be very well hidden. So if you
wanted to hide it properly, and I know this is.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
Morehag fuck, so it's get some it gets very unworkable
very quickly.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, if you wanted to hide something as obvious as
a child's body in a bright red out in a
bright red outfit, you have to go another ten meters
maybe into the bush, and that's.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Hard walking and you're carrying a body.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
You're carrying something that's heavy. So but maybe you do it.
It's not impossible.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
But either way.
Speaker 8 (28:29):
You notice that.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Yeah, I'll show you what this is. Actually, this rake
is a memorial left by the police when they did
the big forensic search and just a few years ago,
and it.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Did have this message on it, we will never to
get home.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
It's hard to read now and there's a date, but
it's Warrior left by police who when they came down here,
did search this area. They ripped the bush apart, they
dug up tons of soil. They were using tools like
this to just scrape through everything. And if they found anything,
(29:16):
they've never made it public. And the detectives are Adama
(29:37):
when questioned in court about this location. So one of
the detectives on the strike force says that the police
do believe William's body was disposed in this area on
the corner of those two roads. And he's asked in
court if he's lying about whether the police know the location,
and he says he's not, and then he says, I
(29:57):
formed the view that the foster mother knows where will
Interil is, which does lead you to the question, well,
if you believe that, then why have you not been
able to find him?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
But we don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
So the faster mon then drives back into Benerine Drive. Okay,
so she says, she drives up here, she says, she
tells police, she brings the car back up, and she
(30:35):
just runs out and she looks for him again and
she's running around. How long have we been.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
We've been twenty six minutes.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So if William was last seen at nine thirty seven,
that's about ten o'clock now.
Speaker 8 (30:54):
Yeah, but you're discounting their old time player.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
All of yeah, you're having a cup of tea. We
know that at about ten point thirty, Williams foster father
sends a text to his foster mother saying I'll be
home in five yea and he is home, and he
is home within five minutes. But the foster mother deletes
that message. So at the time when she's on her
evidence running around looking for William, she deletes the message
(31:21):
from William's foster father. Now she tells police that that's habit.
She just deletes messages as they come in. And it
is true that other messages on her phone are deleted.
And there's a part of me that gets that. I
delete emails as quickly as I can. And she is
from personal Experience office. She's a really organized, a really
efficient person. Does it mean anything that she deleted that message.
(31:49):
If the police theory is right and she's at this
point involved in a conspiracy to dispose of William's body,
what does she gain by deleting that message?
Speaker 8 (32:03):
Hard to tell And I think also hard to read
too much into the actions of someone under extreme stress.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
Either way, Yeah, because on the police theory, she has
to decide in that moment whether or not to bring
him into the conspiracy. Either if the police are right
and she is trying to hide the fact of William's death,
she has to decide very very quickly whether she is
(32:31):
going to lie to him that William has just disappeared,
or tell him the truth and convince him very quickly
to lie with her. The husband gets home about ten
point thirty three or soon after he arrives home where
we are now, and he pulls into this driveway here,
(32:53):
and the foster mother walks towards him from the veranda area,
so that side of that house there, and she asks him,
have you seen William? And the foster father's response, on
his evidence and her evidence, is that he says, what
are you talking about? Why would I have William? The
(33:14):
foster mother tells her husband that William's missing, and he
takes off.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
I then said, where is he?
Speaker 6 (33:26):
Where?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Where?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Where's he going? She said he was he was here
at five minutes ago here, five minutes ago, yep.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I can't find him.
Speaker 5 (33:33):
I was calling his name, William, Carl, William.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
Where are you? She said that he was.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
He was last saying around here, yep. But I thought, okay, well,
you know, if he was down the road, you possibly
would have seen him.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
You've checked that dollhouse over there, and.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
Then absolutely went through there, went through there, went unnath
their house, went around their house, went in there because
they went home. I went in there in there carport.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
So he's running all around there, and then he's running
in wider and wider circles up and down the street here,
and he says he kept coming back to the house
to check for any updates.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
So has William come back?
Speaker 5 (34:13):
Yeah, they've got a caravan in there.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
It's all locked away.
Speaker 5 (34:17):
I went in there.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
I checked on and was locked.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Caravan was locked, yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:20):
Absolutely, And I was looking in everything I possibly could.
I then couldn't find him. I then found there's a
walking trial or a trail that leads to the cemetery.
I followed that. You know, I was still looking for
things on the ground, if there's something, you know, I've
lost a shoe or something like that.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
You were yelling all this all.
Speaker 5 (34:38):
The time, all time, yelling for him all the time.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I remember when I've lost, even for a moment, one
of our kids, it's like the whole world is shaking.
It's that much emotion, it's that much adrenaline and panic.
So I can imagine him running literally up and down
this street looking for William. But then about ten four,
so just over an hour after that photograph was taken
(35:04):
the Foster month, she runs down the road here to
a neighbour's house, asking if the neighbor has seen a
little boy in a Spider Man outfit. But the significance
of that is, from that moment on, the foster mother
is with someone from outside her family, someone who has
(35:25):
no reason to lie to protect her. So we know
that from that moment on, she's not hiding a body. Yeah, So,
having walked it through, what do you think about the
police theory?
Speaker 8 (35:40):
Yeah, it's doable, it is doable, it's.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Tied, it's doable.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
But I don't think it makes a lot of sense.
And the thing that got me was driving down to
the corner of those two roads that the police say
they believe William's foster mother hid his body. You're right
in front of the ride school. You're in view with one,
two three other houses. When if you wanted to hide
(36:07):
something and you'd driven another two hundred meters, there'd be nothing.
They'd just be forest. So why pick that point?
Speaker 8 (36:16):
But it's entirely possible that we're looking at a puzzle
that's missing a lot of pieces, and that the place
could have pieces.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
But if they have pieces, why haven't they done anything
about it? Why has she not been charged. The one
person who does know what other puzzle pieces the police
hold is the man leading the investigation, Detective Chief Inspector
(36:46):
David Laidlaw. He took over more than five years ago,
so back in twenty nineteen, which was months after the
public announcement of a separate plan to overhaul the way
the Unsolved Homicide Team deals with its backlog of cold cases.
It was announced in an exclusive story in Sydney's Daily
(37:09):
Telegraph newspaper that promised that every murder mystery to have
baffled New South Wales police in the past forty years
will be revisited in one of the biggest ever shakeups
of cold case homicides in the state. The paper said
that cases that could be solved would be prioritized and
(37:29):
another internal police report also marked for official use only,
so the officer in charge of the process would be
David Laidlaw.
Speaker 6 (37:43):
There was a time frame given of three months for
the review to be undertaken. However, we identified that some
matters have been out there for three years.
Speaker 7 (37:52):
And in the last five years since the twenty eighteen
system was introduced, there are still one hundred and twenty
five that have not been triarged into on hundred and
ninety one that have not been reviewed, and that number
of cases that have been neither triaged nor reviewed. They
may include cases from the seventies and eighties, the cold Yes,
And at the moment, is this the case? The review
(38:14):
committee receives five to ten reviews every three.
Speaker 6 (38:18):
To six months approximately years.
Speaker 7 (38:22):
So that's fewer than twenty in a year.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Is that right?
Speaker 7 (38:27):
So of the four hundred and forty two undetected cases,
it'll take twenty two years to review all of them
on that average.
Speaker 6 (38:39):
Yes, it could do.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
When you joined the Unsolved Homicide Team in twenty seventeen,
were you already aware of difficulties in locating exhibits that
were appreciated within that team? Was that notorious within the
unsold Homicide Team?
Speaker 6 (39:02):
It's a rather strong word notorious. I would say it was.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Known, well known.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Yes.
Speaker 6 (39:08):
Therefore, the reconciliation plan was to get all exhibits for
forensic analysis to be back into one place, which is
the Metropolitan Exhibited and Property Center.
Speaker 7 (39:22):
And that project was underway, was it when you joined
the team?
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (39:26):
And have that project been completed?
Speaker 6 (39:31):
I'm unable to tell the commissioner.
Speaker 7 (39:33):
That have you received written updates as to the progress
of that project. If you haven't received any written update
as to the progress of that project since you commenced,
that's correct.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Yes, either person who would be expected to receive the updates, Yes, sir?
Have you asked for them? No, sir, why not?
Speaker 6 (39:56):
I can't give the commissioner a reason why not.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
The second voice, the one who's just started asking questions,
is the inquiry's head, a Supreme Court judge.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
These are all people's lives and people's families lives.
Speaker 6 (40:10):
I appreciate that, and.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
As anyone, as far as you know, ever put to
the Commissioner that some specially founded project is urgently needed
to get a grip on all of these unsolved cases.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
David says he does know requests for missing exhibits from
unsolved cases were sent out to different parts of the
police force. That happened in twenty seventeen, so seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Now where are the replies kept?
Speaker 6 (40:38):
I don't know. I can find I would burn what
we call our record management system.
Speaker 7 (40:44):
Is there someone responsible for collating the replies and reviewing them?
Speaker 6 (40:51):
Well, I suppose responsibility now at rest.
Speaker 7 (40:53):
With me, But you haven't conducted that exercise now have
you taken any steps towards reviewing the responses that have
been received?
Speaker 6 (41:04):
No, I haven't.
Speaker 7 (41:05):
The physical exhibits are, of course critically important to unsolved homicides.
Speaker 6 (41:08):
Of course, yes, thank you m Seku for a I'll
a journal team.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
To be honest, I struggle to get my head around
what David's saying. Unsolved homicides are real people, real grieving families.
But New South Wales Police is missing exhibits, missing documents
by the palette load, and the detective in charge of
going back through all these cases says he doesn't know
(41:39):
basic things like where they keep replies to requests for information,
or what's in those replies, or how big the problem
really is. I get David Laidlaw's busy, among other things.
He's running the investigation into William's disappearance, But the record
of the New South Wales Police isn't actually perfect there too.
(42:04):
If the current police theory of what happened is William's
foster mother drove his body away in her mum's gray
mas to three, then surely it's a problem.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
The police at.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
The time didn't examine that car until the twentieth of
September twenty fourteen, five days after William was reported missing.
I'd like to ask David about all of this, but
I've been told no. Instead, New South Wales Police have
given us a short written statement saying police are quote
(42:38):
unable to provide comment or interviews as the matter is
before the coroner, meaning the inquest into William's disappearance, which
is due to start again next week.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
So if anyone out there is thinking I might have
gotten away with this, what's your message?
Speaker 3 (42:53):
They haven't, though that didn't stop David giving this interview
to Sky News in twenty twenty one, when the inquest
was also ongoing.
Speaker 6 (43:02):
We will continue with this investigation as long as it takes.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Do you believe you know who the person is?
Speaker 6 (43:07):
We believe we can identify who it may be or
some of the circumstances of him going missing.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yes, you know what happened, don't you? You know who
it is?
Speaker 6 (43:18):
We have thoughts about what occurred to William, Yes, is
and there's a range of thoughts of what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes, and who was responsible?
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
We started this episode talking about the lives that have
been damaged so far by the police investigation. The families
of those nineteen cases where reports have sat on David
Laidlaw's desk for a year unopened. Right now, other lives
are at risk of harm. Also because today only one
of two things can be right. Either the police theory
(43:52):
is correct and William's foster mother disposed of his body
and has deceived everyone over the past ten years when
she's been publicly campaigning for more attention, not less, on
this case. Or the police are wrong and William's foster
mother has been wrongly and tragically described as a suspected
(44:13):
criminal in front of her friends and family and the
entire country. That's the reality of unsolved homicide investigations.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
The stakes are very, very.
Speaker 3 (44:26):
High, and which of those two theories has evidence to
support It might become clear next week when the inquest
into William's disappearance resumes its public hearings, and we will
be there reporting on what happens in the next episode.
Because one thing walking through the police theory with Nina
(44:47):
has made obvious to me is you don't know what
you don't know? What do you feel about the foster parents.
Speaker 8 (45:02):
Now in that timeline. For the police theory to be true,
you'd have to be a psychopath to be able to
react that quickly.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
Because at the very least you are seeing a child's body,
deciding not to seek help, picking that child's body up,
hiding it, and then driving away to hide it further,
with the intention almost certainly of coming back to move
it again because it wasn't found.
Speaker 8 (45:37):
Breaking down sobbing in front of other.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
People, including the people who know you best, your mum,
your husband, William's sister. The other alternative is that William's
foster mother sits her mum down and says, this is
what's happened. William has died and we need to hide
that fact, and she deals with her mum's grief, shock,
horror and turns that into a willing conspirator.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Then she does that again.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
With William's four year old sister and turns a four
year old child into someone who will convincingly light a
police more than once for several years. And then she
either lies to her own husband and has done for
the past ten years because he's defended her when examined
by police, or she also convinces him.
Speaker 8 (46:29):
And at that point you've got four people hiding a
secret without cracking for a decade. Yeah, under extreme pressure.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Yeah, but you know what here in this cars made
me think, like it's so obvious when a car drives
up here because there's no other traffic that the other
option is that someone takes William and drives off with him.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
And listening to that, you just would somebody not have heard.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
That's next time on The Witness, William Tyrell. If you
know anything about William's disappearance, please contact crime Stoppers. There's
a number in the show notes for this series, but
if there's anything you want to tell us, you can
email Witness at news dot com dot Au or I'm
(47:48):
on social media and it can be completely confidential. A
lot of different people have been involved in making this series.
Among them, the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound
design was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,
Nicholas Adams, Jazz Bar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson.
(48:09):
Research by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our
lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor at News dot com
dot Au is Kerry Warren.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
I'm Dan Box
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