October 20, 2024 • 49 mins
William’s foster family, and the moment he goes missing.
Witness: William Tyrrell is the new, landmark investigation from news.com.au. Read more and watch exclusive video content here
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I've got my photos kind of here, thinking one day
I'll put them on the wall.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
But Ivette Elliott is showing me some photos in her home.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It was just a moment in time where it kind
of captured.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I've just arrived, we haven't set up for a proper
interview yet, and Yvette's dog starts bouncing around us in
excitement before So this.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Is brilliant after bite.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
The day.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Vette's house is neat and nice, white walls, the afternoon
sun coming through the windows, and Avette herself is lovely.
She's welcoming but also worried. The photos make her think
back to a different time years ago now in lane Cove.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So we were all lane Cove Ladies, and we've all
lived in and around lane Cove.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Lane Cove is a suburb in Sydney. It's a bit posh,
and the lane Cove Ladies were just that, a group
of women who'd meet up once a month and talk
about their lives and their careers and their children.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So we used to go to a music festival.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
When the music festivals were they were like a wine
and food festivals, and the kids had just dance at
the front.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
One of those kids was William tyrrel that was the
happy days.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, looks I just wonder what would we all be
doing now if it wasn't for.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
What happened, and suggesting that what happened to William may
fractured that group.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Oh, absolutely everything regarding our relationship changed.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Years after William was reported missing, detectives turned up at
a Vett's door without warning. She and I sit down
together for the proper interview, and Ivett tells me what
the police asked her.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
It was incredibly targeted. It was very, very targeted, and
they were trying to find something. And I ask them
whether they had any suspects, and they said definitively yes
that they did. And there was a lot of questions,
and I guess, thinking back now, they were probably cleverly
put together. Majority of it seemed to be very focused
(02:17):
on William's mum.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
After a couple of hours, Ivette tells me the police
left finishing our interview, I turn off the microphone and
then Ivette tells me how, after saying goodbye to the detectives,
she phoned her old friend William's foster mother, saying, I've
just been interviewed by the police. And it was the
weirdest thing. And William's foster mother told her another of
(02:43):
the Lane Cove ladies had just called, saying detectives had
also been asking her questions. William's foster mother told Yvette
the police were trying to throw her under the bus.
I'm Dan Box and from news to dot com dot Au.
This is Witness William Tyrrell. Episode three, The Foster Parents.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Hello, La La Tokyo, Mike one, do your close slide on.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Okay, So this is unscripted. So, Nina, you're the producer
on this podcast. You've seen more than most people. You've
been through documents, interview statements, seen or listened to hours
of interviews that we've done so far. So at this
stage months in, what do you think of the foster parents?
Speaker 6 (03:54):
I think I'd like to say up front that I
currently do not have any inkling theory predisposition on what
happened to William. And the reason for that is if
you read through everything, I think you could make a
flimsy case for almost any person of interest, and that
(04:17):
includes to me, the foster parents.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It feels like everyone has an opinion on them. We
can't name them for legal reasons, but their lives have
been made public on front pages and newspapers and online
in excruciating detail. Have a look at this, That is
incoming passenger cards dug out of the National.
Speaker 6 (04:42):
Archives, so that the date on this document is nineteen
sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, there's passenger cards from nineteen sixty eight in nineteen
seventy showing the entry of a family into Australia from
Papua New Guinea.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
Okay, what's a passenger card.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Passenger card is when you fly into Australia if you
catch a ship in you have to fill in your
details saying who you are, where you're going to be staying,
who your parents are. If you're a child, and one
of these passengers is a child born a few years earlier.
It's William's foster mother, and you can see her father's
(05:16):
an engineer, her mother's listed as a housewife. The reason
for their journey is a holiday. They're going to stay
a month. You've got the flight number, you've got the
address in Queensland where they're going to be staying. Someone's
gone into the National Archives and dug these out then
shared them online. Yeah, they've been poured over and commented
(05:36):
on probably seen by I'm guessing hundreds, maybe thousands, these
have been sent to journalists, so I've been sent them.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Is what's supposed to be the significance of it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I don't know. The person who sent those to me
told me you could do a whole podcast episode on
those passenger cards.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
Okay, and I can say that's not interesting, But.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That's the level of Attentionilliam's foster mother and her husband.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
I think that's terrible. And I couldn't imagine living like that,
just having every element of your life under the microscope.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It must have been.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
It must be horrifying for them.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Okay, let's jump forward to nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
So in nineteen ninety six, I started working at a
new company and she was already there.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
This is another of the foster mother's close friends. She
doesn't want to be identified, so these are her words,
but not her voice.
Speaker 7 (06:31):
So we kind of bonded and bonded at work and
then bonded out of work and became a friendship outside
of work as well.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And what was your impression of her?
Speaker 7 (06:40):
Smart? She was smart. She was fun though, like it
was just you know, we'd go out shopping at lunchtime,
sometimes just try on dresses. It was just fun. We
were both sort of thirty thirty ish. Yeah, I think
I just turned thirty after I started there.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
A few years later, this friend was a bridesmaid at
the foster mother's wedding.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
We went up the night before because we had They
put on like welcome drinks for everybody on the Friday night,
and then on the day we had hair and makeup done.
It was just a happy day, you know. We went
in an old car, and the groom and his groomsmen
showed up in a helicopter, which I'm not sure if
the bride even knew about. She probably did, but I
didn't know. It was hilarious. The red helicopter came in.
(07:26):
It was just fun. It was really, really nice.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
She says. The couple wanted to have a family, but
they couldn't, and the reasons for that are personal and
they're deeply painful. They did have IVF for years. William's
fosterman would later tell detectives she wanted to have five
or six children. She'd tell police that she also always
(07:51):
wanted to foster and adopt. She'd say she'd always grown
up wanting to help others and it's weird, you'd tell police.
That's a direct quote. But I always knew I would
end up having children that weren't mine.
Speaker 7 (08:08):
When they first started fostering, I was taken by how
naturally they took to parenting.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
This is from a written reference her friend would later
provide for William's foster parents.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
They were not foster parents, they were parents. None of
our friendship group considered the children to be foster children.
They were simply their children. They did what lots of
other families with young children do. They had a toy room,
they ate dinner together as a family, went on holidays
to the park, bike riding adventures, and as the children
(08:40):
grew up, they were a normal, close family.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I also spoke to another of the foster mother's close friends, Sarah.
Speaker 8 (08:48):
I thought she was a wonderful parent.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
I mean, I thought she was very thoughtful and considered,
very loving, and the children loved her.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Did you get any sense that there were difficulties within
that household at that time?
Speaker 8 (09:04):
Oh no, none at all.
Speaker 9 (09:06):
I mean I would say nothing other than what a
normal parenting children family life is. You know, like nothing's perfect,
nothing's all roses and unicorns and rainbows. But no, I
think her and her husband both unbelievably good parents. And
you know, I'm William in particular, if the foster father
(09:26):
was away and then would come home and he'd be
running towards him to greet him. That the just the
absolute love was was amazing. And I think even you know,
in the videos that they've had in the media, the
home videos, like, I think it's very evident.
Speaker 10 (09:53):
William, you're doing really well.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
A third friend, Avet Elliott, showed me that photograph of
their families together and talked about the Lane Cove Ladies.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
I remember just coming up to Christmas and you know,
it was the gathering again of Lane Cove Ladies, and
our kids were all of the same age. William being
a couple of years younger, you know, was my son's shadow.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Because he was the bigger boy.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
They were fun times, you know, we were just living life.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I guess there was.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Without thinking it was just a it was just you know,
a magical time. There was no evil, you know, there
was no evilness that was to come.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
William was nine months old when he came to live
with his foster parents. That was March twenty twelve. So Nina,
this is the point when you start to have questions.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
We don't necessarily have questions about the relationship between them
and William, because I think it's fairly documented, and the
picture that's painted, I think it paints the picture of
a mother who is really struggling. She says at one
stage that by eight am in the morning, she's already
incredibly frustrated and can't believe that she could be feeling
(11:23):
that way by eight am in the morning, and it
isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time.
Totally understandable. Where I start to have questions is how
the foster mother described the relationship with William to the police.
It just there seems like there's a disconnect between what
I'm seeing in the foster care documents and what has
(11:44):
been painted as quite a happy relationship in police statements.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Well, let's unpack that. So the foster parents are very
rarely spoken. This is them describing William is the.
Speaker 11 (12:00):
The cheeky, vibrant little little boy, full of energy, loves
interacting with his sister, he loved interacting with us.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
It's from an interview released by police less than a
year after William was reported missing.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
I mean, he's my little boy, just bringing me to tears.
Pretty cheeky, very chey, but also they've got that, they've
got that love, you know, and the father and boy
love that you know he had.
Speaker 10 (12:30):
It was just.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
He adored, he adored, he adored his dad.
Speaker 12 (12:36):
Just absolutely his eyes and there was a smile like
I look at some of the back at some of
the pictures, and I look at pictures when William was
swineing smiling for me, and I look at pictures where
William was smiling for.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
His dad, and it's different. Oh, completely.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
They adored each other, absolutely adored each.
Speaker 8 (12:57):
Other, and it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And a few months later, on the first anniversary of
William's disappearance, William's foster parents recorded an interview with the
journalist Leah Harris from the Sunday Telegraph. The audio is
not great, but you can hear them saying the same thing.
One of their friends told me how William would always
be waiting for his foster father to arrive home from work.
Speaker 13 (13:21):
Who would always wait at a frondom with his sisters
driving the driveway. That would be just leaping, running and jumping.
That was the dahla my day every day, really and
I'm sure the high out of these turks, you know,
I'm come him and hogs and cuddles and kisses and
go and start and start to do the routine of
(13:42):
about time and dinner and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Eight years later, in twenty twenty two, the foster parents
recorded another interview with Leah Harris, who by now was
working as a TV reporter for Network ten. She asked
them to describe their family life. Just.
Speaker 14 (14:00):
Life was an adventure, and it was to be enjoyed,
and it was all about learning, discovery and just being
so innocent and just it's that join us of just
being so innocent and loving life that I remember most
(14:21):
about William.
Speaker 8 (14:23):
How did him coming into your lives change your lives?
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Changed it forever, but in a really positive way.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Nina, What you were saying was that we've got more
than one account of that family's life together. There's what
we know from the foster care records, is what we
know from court hearings. In April twenty twelve, a month
after William came to stay with his foster parents, an
official from the state government team that was supporting the
foster care visits the home and he'd later say in court,
(14:54):
and I was there that the foster parents disciplined William's
sister using time out, but for them, time out meant
time outside and the sister was two at the time.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
See there's that's judgment. But yeah, I would agree that's
not appropriate for a two year old, which isn't w
ashume what the foster care person was saying.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, yeah, And the foster mum also told this official
that she'd threatened to smack William's sister but had never
done it. And we've got other documents. So eleventh of
October twenty thirteen, William shows a strong preference for his
foster dad but rejects interaction with his foster mum, and
this is what you were talking about. Twenty ninth of
(15:41):
October twenty thirteen, the foster mum emailed their caseworker about
William's behavioral issues and she says it's like he's operating
at warp speed. He's recorded as being defiant and sullen
at daycare, but both of those are after a contact
visit with his biological parents, and that's a pattern. So
(16:03):
the worst of it that I can find is William
cutting the hair with other kids at childcare and deliberately
urinating on the floor, which are pretty bad behaviors, and
more than once, the foster mum emailed their caseworker saying
she was struggling to understand why those contact visits couldn't
be less frequent, and she says she was quote very
(16:24):
tired physically and emotionally. Do you read anything into that?
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, that all sounds relatively
what I would expect for a child as in foster care.
He's quite a young child. I can imagine that it
would be really confusing for a kid to have these
regular visits with one set of parents, go home to
another set of parents and struggle to understand that. So
(16:54):
that all sounds I think okay, And I can imagine
that she would be feeling tired and frustrated, and look.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Being a parent isn't easy. Nice you're a parent. I'm
a parent. I've got three year old, ten year old
and a thirteen year old, and I get tired and
at times I might have thrown things just to deal
with I mean, there's frustration. There's been times when the
three year old and I are both shouting at each other.
(17:28):
But the difference is my life isn't documented.
Speaker 8 (17:31):
It's not documented.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, so there is evidence in these documents that William's
foster care placement was working, and you can hear it
in those home videos and in the documents. His foster
care placement is described as being very stable. When William
(17:53):
had his third birthday, his foster mum made him a
cake in the shape of a fire engine.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Happy birthday, William.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
They are good, dear, have you finished now?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Our dear dear lucky fingers, look your hair.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
And William told his caseworker that he really loved his party,
which was held in the family's backyard. There was friends
from daycare and neighbors. This is mid twenty fourteen, a
few months before he went missing, and at times the
records of his foster care show his behavior seeming to
get better. It might take only twenty or thirty minutes
(18:30):
to settle him in bed at night, rather than hours
at other times, though his behavior is harder to manage.
There's hyperactivities described as slapping and punching his care as
his defiant oppositional behavior. It's not the simple, happy family
that the foster care parents have described in public, and
(18:53):
William's foster mum is quite a private person, and she's
quite controlled and maybe be controlling. This is her talking
to Leah Harris again.
Speaker 10 (19:07):
It's just so personal for us. I feel like I
want to keep a lot of those really special memories
for us personal. There are family memories, and I know
people want to know more, but I just I've just
got to keep something's private and special. It's just really
(19:27):
hard now to keep talking about what happened on that morning.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
William's foster care worker went to the family's house on
the fifth of September twenty fourteen, so that's nine days
before William goes missing, and the records say that William
ran up and hugged his caseworker around his legs. William
was wearing his Spider Man costume, which was his favorite,
and the foster mum said William's behavior had been a
(19:56):
struggle since the last contact visit with his parents, and
for a while there'd been this back and forth where
William's foster mother wanted to have fewer contact visits and
William's birth mother wanted more. The foster parents wanted to
formally adopt William, but they feared his birth mother would
fight that in court. One thing that does strike me
(20:21):
about this case is a lot of it comes down
to judgments on motherhood. Do you.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Well, you mentioned the birthday party. Yeah, I was looking
at a photo from that birthday party on social media.
There's so one person says, the candles aren't even lit.
How is this really a birthday party? The candles aren't
even lit. Then someone else comes in and goes, this
is incredibly dangerous because William is sitting at the corner
(20:50):
of the table and it's pointed right at his neck.
Any slip from any person could knock him onto the table.
And it's just there's like twenty thirty comments of people
picking apart this photo, literally a photo of a little
boy smiling in front of a birthday cake.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So making judgments on the foster mother's parenting. Yeah, you
do see that. The trolls online compare the two mothers.
So I've seen posts describing Krly as William's natural mother
and saying that her family needs reunification, saying William belongs
to his natural mother and the thoughts of foster parents
(21:27):
are irrelevant. And I've seen another where that says William's
mummy pleads don't hurt him. While the fosters still hide
their faces. But you can't help but compare the two
sets of parents, And you can't help but compare the
life William had with his foster parents to the life
he had before. So William's foster parents take him and
(21:51):
his sister on expensive holidays months apart, to the Gold Coast,
to Cairn's, to Barley. When his birth mum is told
about the Barley trip, she says they went again lucky then,
and there were other trips, including to Kendall on the
mid North coast of New South Wales. William's foster mother's
(22:11):
parents lived there.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
It was not really a long weekend like a Friday
Settle a Sunday or a sturdy Sunday Monday or something
like that. Might be once every three or four months,
especially Nana's birthday, or it might be the bit Debbie
an occasion but also a good time.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
To catch up.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Kendall's about a four or five hour drive north from Sydney,
which is not an easy thing to do with young children.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
The trip included, you know, at the halfway point, stopping
at their favorite little snack that they'd get, you know,
which would be McDonald's. I mean, that's really the only
time that they would actually get it well. On the
way up and on the way back. I think it
was because that's the halfway point they get their happy
meal type thing, and they got but they're still excited
about the overall journey, which was to bananas. So that
(23:00):
was that was what they were looking for.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
To Williams, foster nana lived in a big house at
the top of a wide, dead end road called Benerine Drive.
Speaker 14 (23:13):
That location it's quiet. The only people who go up
that road typically the people who live there.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's a colder cirque at mum and Dad's place.
Speaker 8 (23:23):
They knew it.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
He knew it is incredibly comfortable there. So you have
to assume that children.
Speaker 14 (23:33):
Are safe in their own backyards and in their own homes,
and they've been up there.
Speaker 8 (23:39):
More than enough.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
But the lead up to that last visit was unsettled.
William's foster grandfather had recently died, his foster nana was
about to sell the house, and there were emails from
the time between William's foster mother and his caseworker talking
again about those contact visits the biological parents, and on
(24:02):
the ninth of September Williams. Foster mum sends his caseworker
an email saying I am close to giving up or in,
and that phrase close to giving up or in would
get repeated over and over in the years since, both
online and in the newspapers. One newspaper said the phrase
(24:22):
appears to explain at least some of the dramatic developments
in the police investigation that followed, and it's used to
almost imply that there's something darker about the foster mum,
and it does contrast with what the foster mum later
told police. Have a look at this. So this is
(24:45):
a copy of the foster mum's interview with police, or
one of her interviews with police.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Yeah, so this is a place report from twenty sixteen,
twenty sixteen, So this is not the initial statement that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
She left to place a couple of years later.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
Okay, So it says, and this is the thing that
kills me about this is that he and I were
just reaching that absolute, one hundred percent open true mum's
son relationship and he was just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Which does seem to directly contrast this idea that she's
close to giving up or giving in. But when you
actually read the full email chain. I think it's been misreported.
I don't think in the context of that email chain
(25:41):
that the foster mum is talking about giving up or
giving in about William's behavior. The sentence is I'm close
to giving up or in. I don't have the energy
to argue against this.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I think giving up or giving in is about the
back and forth on the number of contact visits with
the biological parents. The email chain shows that they're not
going to reduce the number of visits like the foster
mum has asked, and the foster mum is reacting against
this back and forth, but she's close to giving in.
She's not giving up or giving in about being a
(26:15):
foster mum or about dealing with William's behavior, which is
how it's been presented in the years that have followed.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Is that one interpretation should I read the whole sentence.
So she's replying to an email I haven't censored my
initial thoughts because they are still there. But I am
close to giving up or in. I don't have the
energy to argue against this, And this is what you're saying,
arguing against the visits. I'm feeling pretty ragged. At the moment,
(26:48):
William has not settled one bit and is still over
the emotional but managing it better with help. It's possible.
I get your interpretation of it. I still think reading
through the whole chain, that she was a woman who
was struggling.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah. In that same email, the foster mums says the
family are going up to her mum's house in Kendall
that weekend. So the plan is to go up on
the Friday, which is the twelfth of September twenty fourteen,
but the day before, so Thursday, the eleventh of September,
they make a snap decision to go up a day early,
so they book their cats in for boarding at short notice,
(27:30):
and they drive up, stopping at McDonald's and they recorded
ordering at the counter on CCTV. So all of that
has been confirmed by police, and the foster mother's phone
records from that day have been published online, so you
can see that apart from William's caseworker and Williams foster
(27:50):
nana who she calls, and maybe the staff at McDonald's
and maybe the people looking after their cats because they
go up early, no one knows that William is going
to be in Kendall the next morning, so they got
there late in the evening of the eleventh, about eight
thirty or nine o'clock. The kids went to bed. William
(28:12):
is sharing a room with his foster dad, and William's
sister is sharing with their mum, and the grown ups
sat up talking. The foster dad was tired, he went
to bed next. William was not scared of the dark,
and at home he slept with the door shut. William
was the first to wake up on the twelfth of September,
(28:34):
according to his foster parents. In one of their conversations
with Leah Harris, William's foster father said, they watched TV together.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
William and I were in one room, but William wanted
to watch I think it was Bananas and Pajamas or
something like that of Fire and Sam and so we're
watching there in the morning, and so that was it
was good fun because he was giggling and laughing and
enjoying himself.
Speaker 15 (28:57):
And that was the sound that you worked to that morning.
He is a laugh The laughter was infectious. Yeah, people
would hear that, and Nat, you couldn't help but smile.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
William's foster mother told police that she got him dressed
that morning.
Speaker 14 (29:14):
I remember the discussion I had with William about putting
on his Spider Man clothes because I wanted him to
wear a singlet.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
He didn't want to wear a singlet. So the compromise
was he'd wear a.
Speaker 14 (29:23):
Spider Man T shirt underneath his Spider Man clothes, so
he was Spider maned out completely.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
All these little things that I just remember. It was
just a normal family doing normal.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Family things, except one thing wasn't normal. In another of
their conversations with the journalist Leah Harris, William's foster mother
described seeing two cars parked on the dead and Road
opposite her mum's house.
Speaker 10 (29:54):
When we woke up, I always open up the sliding
door that's on the veranda looking out back down Ben
and Drive from Thumb's case. And as I opened it,
I walked out because there's normally a cook a barrow
that comes up on to the balcony of the verandah,
and was sort of just say hello to the cook barrough.
But I'm looking out over the verandah and I see
two cars. And I see these two cars just sitting
(30:18):
there in the road, and my first thought was, oh,
that's odd. I looked at these cars, thinking why would
two cars be parked on better room drive? And I
looked again, and both these cars had their driver's side
windows down, and I just looked again, and I thought, oh,
(30:41):
that's weird because they were parked in the middle of
two driveways, you know, and I had direct view of them,
they would have had direct view of me, and I
just I thought it's odd and went back inside and
didn't think another thing of it.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's odd because you don't a lot of cars parked
on beneerin drive. There's few houses there, and each of
them has got a long drive with space for a
few cars. So you don't park on the road if
you live there or if you're visiting, And you don't
go there unless you do live there or you've got
a good reason to do so. And something else is
(31:19):
odd too. William's foster mother told Leah Harris she forgot
about seeing the two cars, then remembered seeing them the
same night.
Speaker 10 (31:30):
I realized that night that William me seeing that I
had actually seen two cars, but she.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Told police she didn't remember this until a few days later.
Speaker 6 (31:44):
I remember reporting the other cars to the guys in
the place Rescue van that was parked here when we
picked up my sister from the airport. Was on the
way home from the airport. I'm driving the car and
I just went there were cars there, and my sister goes,
what cars. I've gone, Oh my god. So that's when
I've talked about the two cars.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So maybe that's a mistake. One time she says she
remembered seeing the cars that night, and another time she
says she remembered seeing the cars a few days later,
but there are other confusions. On one occasion, William's foster
mother seems to say one of the cars was on
the road the morning she reported William missing when the
(32:26):
first police officer arrived, his name was Chris Rowley.
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Because when Chris Rowley came up, he was a responding
policeman from when I called for below, I actually walked
across where that white station wagon was because I met
him on the road, and as Chris Rowley's coming up
in a room drive, I'm on the left hand side
standing near with that white car. That white station wagon was,
(32:52):
I've walked past it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So it's not obvious there. If William's foster mother is
saying she walked past the whites station wagon when Chris
Rowley arrived, or if she's saying she walked past where
the station wagon had been. But in her interview with police,
she seems more certain. She says the cars weren't there
when Chris Rowley arrived.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
I'm not making this up. Those cars were there, and
they were outside that house, and when Chris Rowley came up,
those cars weren't there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So listening to the different interviews, you might not be
sure if William's foster mother is consistent on whether the
station wagon was there or it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
I mean, I found that the description of the cars.
I definitely noticed this as well, that she's been a
bit inconsistent about the timings of the cars. It seems
to me that the police that the police haven't been
able to verify at any point over the years that
(33:58):
the cars were there.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Right.
Speaker 11 (34:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
In his witness statement, Chris Rowney, the police officer, doesn't
mention the cars being there, and the police have asked
neighbors and nobody says they saw them. So why might
the cars be important?
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Well, the cars are important if we're looking at the
theory that William was abducted, right, So if we're looking
at the aduction theory, which is already statistically the least
likely thing yeah to have happened. Those cars being there
and the time that they were there is really really
(34:37):
important to nail down. If the cars in fact weren't there,
and they can verify that they weren't there, then that
makes a case in a completely different direction. So that's
just as important.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And in different interviews, it's William's foster mum who keeps
coming back to the importance of her seeing those cars.
Speaker 10 (34:58):
So either they're involved or they've seen what happened, and
we just need them to come forward to say this
is what we thought.
Speaker 8 (35:09):
So from your memory, were they gone when you realize
that William had gone missing? Were they not there anymore?
Speaker 10 (35:15):
I realized that they weren't there that night when I
remembered walking across the road to see Chris Rowley.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So there William's foster mother is again talking about remembering
seeing those cars that night. And to make it all
more confusing, there was a witness who was interviewed by
police only years later who described seeing a white Holden
driving near where William was reported missing on the day
he disappeared. Only that witness described seeing a Holden Sedan,
(35:51):
not a station wagon, which William's foster mother described, and
any inconsistency in someone's evidence, it can attracts suspicion.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
They took our laptops, were grilled.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
We were completely grilled, separately in isolations in back of
detectives vehicles. Every time they took my vehicle away. They
completely searched to check it, you know, I mean they did.
They did everything.
Speaker 14 (36:16):
And we had multiple conversations with multiple police people, and
you know, detectives and all sorts of other police always
just checking in, just looking at you know, corroborating things,
checking with us, all sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
And I remember saying to you that we.
Speaker 16 (36:37):
Would have had to have been their prime suspects because
we were the last people to see him, and if
they didn't completely investigate us, I would be absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Gobsmacked, because you've got to rule us out.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I remember at the time, I was newspaper reporter speaking
to a senior detective days after William disappeared, and he
told me, we've ruled out both sets of parents. And
then the years passed and the Department of Family and
Community Services, so the state government body that manages. Foster
(37:21):
care continued to give William's foster parents other children to
look after, and that feels like a judgment on them
as parents as well, saying these guys are safe, we
can give them other children to look after. William's foster
parents kept calling for more public attention on William's disappearance for.
Speaker 9 (37:41):
Some wonderful kids.
Speaker 17 (37:42):
Ladies and gentlemen, would like to introduce you to the
Kendall Public School choir who were going to sing bring
Him Home, the official Where's William campaign theme song was
chosen by William's mummy and dad either we'd been rand
of Applain.
Speaker 18 (37:58):
We're coming up to a very important week, Where's William Week?
The search for little William checking.
Speaker 17 (38:04):
Up to one thousand people to pack into the Kendall
Showgrounds and so if they're important not only to William
Tyrell's family, but.
Speaker 18 (38:13):
What he's called a walk for William Now, these will
be held across New South Wales as well as flowers.
They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board.
If you know something, please say something.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
We can't let people forget William.
Speaker 8 (38:30):
We can't.
Speaker 14 (38:31):
It's a three year old boy that was abducted. How
can we public police say that's okay and let it go.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
They also called for more police attention on William's disappearance,
including in this interview with Leah Harris.
Speaker 8 (38:51):
Will you ever give up fighting for him? Never?
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Never till my last breath?
Speaker 8 (38:58):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
If police think they've seen the last of.
Speaker 8 (39:02):
Us, big mistake, you won't be going quietly.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
We will not give up on William, and we will
not let other people give up on you. He's too
important to give up on. Never going to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Ever, William's foster parents have declined to be interviewed for
this series on advice from their lawyers. I have met them.
We meet in safe houses at different hotels, and when
we meet we turn off our phones, which might sound paranoid,
(39:39):
but they have reason to be paranoid. Williams foster parents
know in recent years that the police have been intercepting
their calls. They know they've had listening devices in their
homes and surveillance cameras outside it, and we'll get into
all of that later in this series. William's foster mother
has given us a written statement, and it's the first
(40:01):
time she said anything in public about William's disappearance. In
the years since she was publicly identified in the media
and by the police as a suspect. These are her words.
Just over ten years ago, my little boy, William Tyrrell,
disappeared from my mother's yard at her house at Kendall.
(40:23):
I believe that William was taken. I have no idea
who took William or what happened to him. If he
is in fact dead, I have no idea where his
little body is. I have no knowledge of or involvement
in his disappearance. Even though William was not my child
by birth, I loved William as much as any mother
(40:45):
could love her child. I loved him as if he
was my child by birth, if not more. It did
not matter one bits that he was not connected to
us biologically. William made my life complete. I loved him fiercely.
I just loved being his mummy. My life with William
(41:05):
was happy, fun and an adventure. Every day was different.
Never ever, for a moment did I regret becoming a
foster mother. We were a family, not the traditional version
of a family. It didn't matter. We were and still
are a family, and we connected as one. For the
past five years, the police have done nothing to try
(41:28):
to discover who took William and what has happened to him. Instead,
they have concentrated all their efforts on trying to build
a case that I was in some way to blame
for his death and the disposal of his precious little body.
They have gone to great lengths to blacken my character
in the media. I believe that if the police had
(41:49):
properly investigated this case instead of persecuting me, they may
well have found the person responsible for William's disappearance. It's
challenging to have hope and build plans for the future
when our hearts remain shattered and in pieces. All I
can hope for is that some person who knows something
(42:11):
comes forward. Working on this podcast, I drove up to
the house of Vett Elliot, the old friend of William's
foster parents, who told me about the Lane Cove Ladies.
We talked about how for years after William went missing,
different police seemed to agree the foster parents had nothing
(42:34):
to do with his disappearance, but something must have made
them suspicious, because Ivette told me how detectives turned up
at her house asking questions. In October twenty twenty one.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
It was incredibly targeted. It was very very targeted, and
they were trying to find something and I, you know,
I had nothing to give them.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
They told you they had a suspect, they didn't tell
you who it was at that stage.
Speaker 5 (43:02):
No, they didn't necessarily categorically mention William's mum. But when
you look back at the pointed questions and how much
time was spent on her personality, on her relationships, on
who she was as a person, then you know.
Speaker 8 (43:25):
It was very much.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
I became very much aware of who they were focused on.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Looking back now at that interview with the police and
everything that's happened before after William went missing, what's your
perspective of the police now? And has that changed?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Before?
Speaker 5 (43:48):
I had the absolute respect for police, and when I
was eighteen, I wanted to join the police. So I
absolutely held the police in the highest regard. I don't
feel that way anymore. I'm nervous for William's mum and
dad because it feels like a very targeted campaign and
(44:13):
now their attention has only turned to one person, and
that terrifies me.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
After leaving events, I also spoke to two other friends
of William's foster parents. They both described how the police
came asking questions.
Speaker 7 (44:29):
I found the questioning quite I didn't understand why they
wanted to know about her past boyfriends, and like, what's
the relevance asking me things like what sort of family
were they? And I just said, they're just a normal family.
Well do they sit down and have dinner together? And
I'm like, yeah, I don't know. They just felt like
(44:50):
they were trying. It felt like they knew what they
wanted to know and they were trying to find evidence
to support that. And I was like, wrong person, I'm
the wrong person.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Why were you the wrong person?
Speaker 7 (45:05):
Well, because I don't believe they had anything to do
with William's disappearance. So, and I've known his foster mother
since nineteen ninety six, right, and I know her well.
I've been on holidays with her, I've been her bridesmaid, Like,
I know her well.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
There's also something else, another reason I wanted to talk
to this woman in particular. That's because her name came
up in court last year. One of the detectives investigating
William's disappearance, Sean Ogilvie, was giving evidence about all the
evidence they've gathered, including, quote, a substantial number of witness statements.
(45:46):
Sean Oglevie said four people had declined to give a
witness statement, and he named them. This woman is one
of those four people, and you're one of those four names.
What did you think when you heard that?
Speaker 7 (46:02):
Huh?
Speaker 14 (46:03):
I was.
Speaker 7 (46:05):
Just super angry, super angry that my friends had to
sit in a court room and hear that I refused
to support them because I was never asked. I did
not decline. I was never asked. I was never even
asked to provide a statement or that reference or whatever
it was. I have provided other references in the past.
(46:26):
I've recently been asked to provide one for my friend's lawyer.
I did it that day. I was never ever asked
to provide that, and it made me very angry that
my name was read out and that they had to
sit there and listen to that.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
If you had been asked to give a statement, what
would you have said?
Speaker 7 (46:44):
Well, I don't know. I don't know anything about what
they were asking. I don't know what they were asking
for because I was never asked.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
If they were asking you, if you'd ever seen any
evidence that William's foster mum or foster dad could intimidate
a child.
Speaker 7 (47:02):
What would you have said, Yeah, I've seen the dad
be a bit cranky, but nothing outside the ordinary bounds
of parenting. Parenting kids is hard, Not everyone's an angel.
You lose your temper sometimes, but that's what I would
have said, not physical though.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Do you think they were good parents?
Speaker 7 (47:20):
I do, I really do. They really made a family
for those children. They really They got into bike riding
and you know the back room at their house before
they renovated, the whole back room was just for the
kid's play area, with childboards, bags of toys, and there
was always laughter in that house. They were a fun family.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And that's what you would have told the police if
you had given that statement. Yeah, So did the police
get confused? Were they mistaken to say this woman declined
to give a witness statement? Why are the police targeting
Williams foster parents? And who's in charge of their investigation?
(48:06):
That's next time on Witness. If you know anything about
William's disappearance, please contact crimestoppers. There's a number in the
show notes for this series, but if there's anything you
want to tell us, you can email Witness at News
(48:27):
dot com dot au or I'm on social media and
it can be completely confidential. A lot of different people
have been involved in making this series. Among them, the
executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by
Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar,
(48:47):
Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Voice acting on this
episode by Bridget Bush, Research by Adan Patrick, original music
by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor
at news dot com dot a U is Kerry Warren.
I'm Dan Box
I've got my photos kind of here, thinking one day
I'll put them on the wall.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
But Ivette Elliott is showing me some photos in her home.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
It was just a moment in time where it kind
of captured.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I've just arrived, we haven't set up for a proper
interview yet, and Yvette's dog starts bouncing around us in
excitement before So this.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Is brilliant after bite.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
The day.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Vette's house is neat and nice, white walls, the afternoon
sun coming through the windows, and Avette herself is lovely.
She's welcoming but also worried. The photos make her think
back to a different time years ago now in lane Cove.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
So we were all lane Cove Ladies, and we've all
lived in and around lane Cove.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Lane Cove is a suburb in Sydney. It's a bit posh,
and the lane Cove Ladies were just that, a group
of women who'd meet up once a month and talk
about their lives and their careers and their children.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
So we used to go to a music festival.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
When the music festivals were they were like a wine
and food festivals, and the kids had just dance at
the front.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
One of those kids was William tyrrel that was the
happy days.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, looks I just wonder what would we all be
doing now if it wasn't for.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
What happened, and suggesting that what happened to William may
fractured that group.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Oh, absolutely everything regarding our relationship changed.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Years after William was reported missing, detectives turned up at
a Vett's door without warning. She and I sit down
together for the proper interview, and Ivett tells me what
the police asked her.
Speaker 5 (01:52):
It was incredibly targeted. It was very, very targeted, and
they were trying to find something. And I ask them
whether they had any suspects, and they said definitively yes
that they did. And there was a lot of questions,
and I guess, thinking back now, they were probably cleverly
put together. Majority of it seemed to be very focused
(02:17):
on William's mum.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
After a couple of hours, Ivette tells me the police
left finishing our interview, I turn off the microphone and
then Ivette tells me how, after saying goodbye to the detectives,
she phoned her old friend William's foster mother, saying, I've
just been interviewed by the police. And it was the
weirdest thing. And William's foster mother told her another of
(02:43):
the Lane Cove ladies had just called, saying detectives had
also been asking her questions. William's foster mother told Yvette
the police were trying to throw her under the bus.
I'm Dan Box and from news to dot com dot Au.
This is Witness William Tyrrell. Episode three, The Foster Parents.
Speaker 6 (03:20):
Hello, La La Tokyo, Mike one, do your close slide on.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Okay, So this is unscripted. So, Nina, you're the producer
on this podcast. You've seen more than most people. You've
been through documents, interview statements, seen or listened to hours
of interviews that we've done so far. So at this
stage months in, what do you think of the foster parents?
Speaker 6 (03:54):
I think I'd like to say up front that I
currently do not have any inkling theory predisposition on what
happened to William. And the reason for that is if
you read through everything, I think you could make a
flimsy case for almost any person of interest, and that
(04:17):
includes to me, the foster parents.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
It feels like everyone has an opinion on them. We
can't name them for legal reasons, but their lives have
been made public on front pages and newspapers and online
in excruciating detail. Have a look at this, That is
incoming passenger cards dug out of the National.
Speaker 6 (04:42):
Archives, so that the date on this document is nineteen
sixty eight.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yeah, there's passenger cards from nineteen sixty eight in nineteen
seventy showing the entry of a family into Australia from
Papua New Guinea.
Speaker 6 (04:54):
Okay, what's a passenger card.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Passenger card is when you fly into Australia if you
catch a ship in you have to fill in your
details saying who you are, where you're going to be staying,
who your parents are. If you're a child, and one
of these passengers is a child born a few years earlier.
It's William's foster mother, and you can see her father's
(05:16):
an engineer, her mother's listed as a housewife. The reason
for their journey is a holiday. They're going to stay
a month. You've got the flight number, you've got the
address in Queensland where they're going to be staying. Someone's
gone into the National Archives and dug these out then
shared them online. Yeah, they've been poured over and commented
(05:36):
on probably seen by I'm guessing hundreds, maybe thousands, these
have been sent to journalists, so I've been sent them.
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Is what's supposed to be the significance of it.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I don't know. The person who sent those to me
told me you could do a whole podcast episode on
those passenger cards.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
Okay, and I can say that's not interesting, But.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
That's the level of Attentionilliam's foster mother and her husband.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
I think that's terrible. And I couldn't imagine living like that,
just having every element of your life under the microscope.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It must have been.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
It must be horrifying for them.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Okay, let's jump forward to nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
So in nineteen ninety six, I started working at a
new company and she was already there.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
This is another of the foster mother's close friends. She
doesn't want to be identified, so these are her words,
but not her voice.
Speaker 7 (06:31):
So we kind of bonded and bonded at work and
then bonded out of work and became a friendship outside
of work as well.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And what was your impression of her?
Speaker 7 (06:40):
Smart? She was smart. She was fun though, like it
was just you know, we'd go out shopping at lunchtime,
sometimes just try on dresses. It was just fun. We
were both sort of thirty thirty ish. Yeah, I think
I just turned thirty after I started there.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
A few years later, this friend was a bridesmaid at
the foster mother's wedding.
Speaker 7 (07:02):
We went up the night before because we had They
put on like welcome drinks for everybody on the Friday night,
and then on the day we had hair and makeup done.
It was just a happy day, you know. We went
in an old car, and the groom and his groomsmen
showed up in a helicopter, which I'm not sure if
the bride even knew about. She probably did, but I
didn't know. It was hilarious. The red helicopter came in.
(07:26):
It was just fun. It was really, really nice.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
She says. The couple wanted to have a family, but
they couldn't, and the reasons for that are personal and
they're deeply painful. They did have IVF for years. William's
fosterman would later tell detectives she wanted to have five
or six children. She'd tell police that she also always
(07:51):
wanted to foster and adopt. She'd say she'd always grown
up wanting to help others and it's weird, you'd tell police.
That's a direct quote. But I always knew I would
end up having children that weren't mine.
Speaker 7 (08:08):
When they first started fostering, I was taken by how
naturally they took to parenting.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
This is from a written reference her friend would later
provide for William's foster parents.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
They were not foster parents, they were parents. None of
our friendship group considered the children to be foster children.
They were simply their children. They did what lots of
other families with young children do. They had a toy room,
they ate dinner together as a family, went on holidays
to the park, bike riding adventures, and as the children
(08:40):
grew up, they were a normal, close family.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I also spoke to another of the foster mother's close friends, Sarah.
Speaker 8 (08:48):
I thought she was a wonderful parent.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
I mean, I thought she was very thoughtful and considered,
very loving, and the children loved her.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Did you get any sense that there were difficulties within
that household at that time?
Speaker 8 (09:04):
Oh no, none at all.
Speaker 9 (09:06):
I mean I would say nothing other than what a
normal parenting children family life is. You know, like nothing's perfect,
nothing's all roses and unicorns and rainbows. But no, I
think her and her husband both unbelievably good parents. And
you know, I'm William in particular, if the foster father
(09:26):
was away and then would come home and he'd be
running towards him to greet him. That the just the
absolute love was was amazing. And I think even you know,
in the videos that they've had in the media, the
home videos, like, I think it's very evident.
Speaker 10 (09:53):
William, you're doing really well.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
A third friend, Avet Elliott, showed me that photograph of
their families together and talked about the Lane Cove Ladies.
Speaker 5 (10:14):
I remember just coming up to Christmas and you know,
it was the gathering again of Lane Cove Ladies, and
our kids were all of the same age. William being
a couple of years younger, you know, was my son's shadow.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Because he was the bigger boy.
Speaker 5 (10:30):
They were fun times, you know, we were just living life.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
I guess there was.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
Without thinking it was just a it was just you know,
a magical time. There was no evil, you know, there
was no evilness that was to come.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
William was nine months old when he came to live
with his foster parents. That was March twenty twelve. So Nina,
this is the point when you start to have questions.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
We don't necessarily have questions about the relationship between them
and William, because I think it's fairly documented, and the
picture that's painted, I think it paints the picture of
a mother who is really struggling. She says at one
stage that by eight am in the morning, she's already
incredibly frustrated and can't believe that she could be feeling
(11:23):
that way by eight am in the morning, and it
isn't going to be sunshine and rainbows all the time.
Totally understandable. Where I start to have questions is how
the foster mother described the relationship with William to the police.
It just there seems like there's a disconnect between what
I'm seeing in the foster care documents and what has
(11:44):
been painted as quite a happy relationship in police statements.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Well, let's unpack that. So the foster parents are very
rarely spoken. This is them describing William is the.
Speaker 11 (12:00):
The cheeky, vibrant little little boy, full of energy, loves
interacting with his sister, he loved interacting with us.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
It's from an interview released by police less than a
year after William was reported missing.
Speaker 11 (12:15):
I mean, he's my little boy, just bringing me to tears.
Pretty cheeky, very chey, but also they've got that, they've
got that love, you know, and the father and boy
love that you know he had.
Speaker 10 (12:30):
It was just.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
He adored, he adored, he adored his dad.
Speaker 12 (12:36):
Just absolutely his eyes and there was a smile like
I look at some of the back at some of
the pictures, and I look at pictures when William was
swineing smiling for me, and I look at pictures where
William was smiling for.
Speaker 8 (12:49):
His dad, and it's different. Oh, completely.
Speaker 3 (12:54):
They adored each other, absolutely adored each.
Speaker 8 (12:57):
Other, and it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
And a few months later, on the first anniversary of
William's disappearance, William's foster parents recorded an interview with the
journalist Leah Harris from the Sunday Telegraph. The audio is
not great, but you can hear them saying the same thing.
One of their friends told me how William would always
be waiting for his foster father to arrive home from work.
Speaker 13 (13:21):
Who would always wait at a frondom with his sisters
driving the driveway. That would be just leaping, running and jumping.
That was the dahla my day every day, really and
I'm sure the high out of these turks, you know,
I'm come him and hogs and cuddles and kisses and
go and start and start to do the routine of
(13:42):
about time and dinner and all those sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Eight years later, in twenty twenty two, the foster parents
recorded another interview with Leah Harris, who by now was
working as a TV reporter for Network ten. She asked
them to describe their family life. Just.
Speaker 14 (14:00):
Life was an adventure, and it was to be enjoyed,
and it was all about learning, discovery and just being
so innocent and just it's that join us of just
being so innocent and loving life that I remember most
(14:21):
about William.
Speaker 8 (14:23):
How did him coming into your lives change your lives?
Speaker 4 (14:28):
Changed it forever, but in a really positive way.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Nina, What you were saying was that we've got more
than one account of that family's life together. There's what
we know from the foster care records, is what we
know from court hearings. In April twenty twelve, a month
after William came to stay with his foster parents, an
official from the state government team that was supporting the
foster care visits the home and he'd later say in court,
(14:54):
and I was there that the foster parents disciplined William's
sister using time out, but for them, time out meant
time outside and the sister was two at the time.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
See there's that's judgment. But yeah, I would agree that's
not appropriate for a two year old, which isn't w
ashume what the foster care person was saying.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, yeah, And the foster mum also told this official
that she'd threatened to smack William's sister but had never
done it. And we've got other documents. So eleventh of
October twenty thirteen, William shows a strong preference for his
foster dad but rejects interaction with his foster mum, and
this is what you were talking about. Twenty ninth of
(15:41):
October twenty thirteen, the foster mum emailed their caseworker about
William's behavioral issues and she says it's like he's operating
at warp speed. He's recorded as being defiant and sullen
at daycare, but both of those are after a contact
visit with his biological parents, and that's a pattern. So
(16:03):
the worst of it that I can find is William
cutting the hair with other kids at childcare and deliberately
urinating on the floor, which are pretty bad behaviors, and
more than once, the foster mum emailed their caseworker saying
she was struggling to understand why those contact visits couldn't
be less frequent, and she says she was quote very
(16:24):
tired physically and emotionally. Do you read anything into that?
Speaker 6 (16:33):
Yeah, I mean, like I said, that all sounds relatively
what I would expect for a child as in foster care.
He's quite a young child. I can imagine that it
would be really confusing for a kid to have these
regular visits with one set of parents, go home to
another set of parents and struggle to understand that. So
(16:54):
that all sounds I think okay, And I can imagine
that she would be feeling tired and frustrated, and look.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Being a parent isn't easy. Nice you're a parent. I'm
a parent. I've got three year old, ten year old
and a thirteen year old, and I get tired and
at times I might have thrown things just to deal
with I mean, there's frustration. There's been times when the
three year old and I are both shouting at each other.
(17:28):
But the difference is my life isn't documented.
Speaker 8 (17:31):
It's not documented.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yeah, so there is evidence in these documents that William's
foster care placement was working, and you can hear it
in those home videos and in the documents. His foster
care placement is described as being very stable. When William
(17:53):
had his third birthday, his foster mum made him a
cake in the shape of a fire engine.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Happy birthday, William.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
They are good, dear, have you finished now?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Our dear dear lucky fingers, look your hair.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
And William told his caseworker that he really loved his party,
which was held in the family's backyard. There was friends
from daycare and neighbors. This is mid twenty fourteen, a
few months before he went missing, and at times the
records of his foster care show his behavior seeming to
get better. It might take only twenty or thirty minutes
(18:30):
to settle him in bed at night, rather than hours
at other times, though his behavior is harder to manage.
There's hyperactivities described as slapping and punching his care as
his defiant oppositional behavior. It's not the simple, happy family
that the foster care parents have described in public, and
(18:53):
William's foster mum is quite a private person, and she's
quite controlled and maybe be controlling. This is her talking
to Leah Harris again.
Speaker 10 (19:07):
It's just so personal for us. I feel like I
want to keep a lot of those really special memories
for us personal. There are family memories, and I know
people want to know more, but I just I've just
got to keep something's private and special. It's just really
(19:27):
hard now to keep talking about what happened on that morning.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
William's foster care worker went to the family's house on
the fifth of September twenty fourteen, so that's nine days
before William goes missing, and the records say that William
ran up and hugged his caseworker around his legs. William
was wearing his Spider Man costume, which was his favorite,
and the foster mum said William's behavior had been a
(19:56):
struggle since the last contact visit with his parents, and
for a while there'd been this back and forth where
William's foster mother wanted to have fewer contact visits and
William's birth mother wanted more. The foster parents wanted to
formally adopt William, but they feared his birth mother would
fight that in court. One thing that does strike me
(20:21):
about this case is a lot of it comes down
to judgments on motherhood. Do you.
Speaker 6 (20:28):
Well, you mentioned the birthday party. Yeah, I was looking
at a photo from that birthday party on social media.
There's so one person says, the candles aren't even lit.
How is this really a birthday party? The candles aren't
even lit. Then someone else comes in and goes, this
is incredibly dangerous because William is sitting at the corner
(20:50):
of the table and it's pointed right at his neck.
Any slip from any person could knock him onto the table.
And it's just there's like twenty thirty comments of people
picking apart this photo, literally a photo of a little
boy smiling in front of a birthday cake.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So making judgments on the foster mother's parenting. Yeah, you
do see that. The trolls online compare the two mothers.
So I've seen posts describing Krly as William's natural mother
and saying that her family needs reunification, saying William belongs
to his natural mother and the thoughts of foster parents
(21:27):
are irrelevant. And I've seen another where that says William's
mummy pleads don't hurt him. While the fosters still hide
their faces. But you can't help but compare the two
sets of parents, And you can't help but compare the
life William had with his foster parents to the life
he had before. So William's foster parents take him and
(21:51):
his sister on expensive holidays months apart, to the Gold Coast,
to Cairn's, to Barley. When his birth mum is told
about the Barley trip, she says they went again lucky then,
and there were other trips, including to Kendall on the
mid North coast of New South Wales. William's foster mother's
(22:11):
parents lived there.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
It was not really a long weekend like a Friday
Settle a Sunday or a sturdy Sunday Monday or something
like that. Might be once every three or four months,
especially Nana's birthday, or it might be the bit Debbie
an occasion but also a good time.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
To catch up.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Kendall's about a four or five hour drive north from Sydney,
which is not an easy thing to do with young children.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
The trip included, you know, at the halfway point, stopping
at their favorite little snack that they'd get, you know,
which would be McDonald's. I mean, that's really the only
time that they would actually get it well. On the
way up and on the way back. I think it
was because that's the halfway point they get their happy
meal type thing, and they got but they're still excited
about the overall journey, which was to bananas. So that
(23:00):
was that was what they were looking for.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
To Williams, foster nana lived in a big house at
the top of a wide, dead end road called Benerine Drive.
Speaker 14 (23:13):
That location it's quiet. The only people who go up
that road typically the people who live there.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
It's a colder cirque at mum and Dad's place.
Speaker 8 (23:23):
They knew it.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
He knew it is incredibly comfortable there. So you have
to assume that children.
Speaker 14 (23:33):
Are safe in their own backyards and in their own homes,
and they've been up there.
Speaker 8 (23:39):
More than enough.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
But the lead up to that last visit was unsettled.
William's foster grandfather had recently died, his foster nana was
about to sell the house, and there were emails from
the time between William's foster mother and his caseworker talking
again about those contact visits the biological parents, and on
(24:02):
the ninth of September Williams. Foster mum sends his caseworker
an email saying I am close to giving up or in,
and that phrase close to giving up or in would
get repeated over and over in the years since, both
online and in the newspapers. One newspaper said the phrase
(24:22):
appears to explain at least some of the dramatic developments
in the police investigation that followed, and it's used to
almost imply that there's something darker about the foster mum,
and it does contrast with what the foster mum later
told police. Have a look at this. So this is
(24:45):
a copy of the foster mum's interview with police, or
one of her interviews with police.
Speaker 6 (24:52):
Yeah, so this is a place report from twenty sixteen,
twenty sixteen, So this is not the initial statement that.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
She left to place a couple of years later.
Speaker 6 (25:02):
Okay, So it says, and this is the thing that
kills me about this is that he and I were
just reaching that absolute, one hundred percent open true mum's
son relationship and he was just beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Which does seem to directly contrast this idea that she's
close to giving up or giving in. But when you
actually read the full email chain. I think it's been misreported.
I don't think in the context of that email chain
(25:41):
that the foster mum is talking about giving up or
giving in about William's behavior. The sentence is I'm close
to giving up or in. I don't have the energy
to argue against this.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I think giving up or giving in is about the
back and forth on the number of contact visits with
the biological parents. The email chain shows that they're not
going to reduce the number of visits like the foster
mum has asked, and the foster mum is reacting against
this back and forth, but she's close to giving in.
She's not giving up or giving in about being a
(26:15):
foster mum or about dealing with William's behavior, which is
how it's been presented in the years that have followed.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
Is that one interpretation should I read the whole sentence.
So she's replying to an email I haven't censored my
initial thoughts because they are still there. But I am
close to giving up or in. I don't have the
energy to argue against this, And this is what you're saying,
arguing against the visits. I'm feeling pretty ragged. At the moment,
(26:48):
William has not settled one bit and is still over
the emotional but managing it better with help. It's possible.
I get your interpretation of it. I still think reading
through the whole chain, that she was a woman who
was struggling.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Yeah. In that same email, the foster mums says the
family are going up to her mum's house in Kendall
that weekend. So the plan is to go up on
the Friday, which is the twelfth of September twenty fourteen,
but the day before, so Thursday, the eleventh of September,
they make a snap decision to go up a day early,
so they book their cats in for boarding at short notice,
(27:30):
and they drive up, stopping at McDonald's and they recorded
ordering at the counter on CCTV. So all of that
has been confirmed by police, and the foster mother's phone
records from that day have been published online, so you
can see that apart from William's caseworker and Williams foster
(27:50):
nana who she calls, and maybe the staff at McDonald's
and maybe the people looking after their cats because they
go up early, no one knows that William is going
to be in Kendall the next morning, so they got
there late in the evening of the eleventh, about eight
thirty or nine o'clock. The kids went to bed. William
(28:12):
is sharing a room with his foster dad, and William's
sister is sharing with their mum, and the grown ups
sat up talking. The foster dad was tired, he went
to bed next. William was not scared of the dark,
and at home he slept with the door shut. William
was the first to wake up on the twelfth of September,
(28:34):
according to his foster parents. In one of their conversations
with Leah Harris, William's foster father said, they watched TV together.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
William and I were in one room, but William wanted
to watch I think it was Bananas and Pajamas or
something like that of Fire and Sam and so we're
watching there in the morning, and so that was it
was good fun because he was giggling and laughing and
enjoying himself.
Speaker 15 (28:57):
And that was the sound that you worked to that morning.
He is a laugh The laughter was infectious. Yeah, people
would hear that, and Nat, you couldn't help but smile.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
William's foster mother told police that she got him dressed
that morning.
Speaker 14 (29:14):
I remember the discussion I had with William about putting
on his Spider Man clothes because I wanted him to
wear a singlet.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
He didn't want to wear a singlet. So the compromise
was he'd wear a.
Speaker 14 (29:23):
Spider Man T shirt underneath his Spider Man clothes, so
he was Spider maned out completely.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
All these little things that I just remember. It was
just a normal family doing normal.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Family things, except one thing wasn't normal. In another of
their conversations with the journalist Leah Harris, William's foster mother
described seeing two cars parked on the dead and Road
opposite her mum's house.
Speaker 10 (29:54):
When we woke up, I always open up the sliding
door that's on the veranda looking out back down Ben
and Drive from Thumb's case. And as I opened it,
I walked out because there's normally a cook a barrow
that comes up on to the balcony of the verandah,
and was sort of just say hello to the cook barrough.
But I'm looking out over the verandah and I see
two cars. And I see these two cars just sitting
(30:18):
there in the road, and my first thought was, oh,
that's odd. I looked at these cars, thinking why would
two cars be parked on better room drive? And I
looked again, and both these cars had their driver's side
windows down, and I just looked again, and I thought, oh,
(30:41):
that's weird because they were parked in the middle of
two driveways, you know, and I had direct view of them,
they would have had direct view of me, and I
just I thought it's odd and went back inside and
didn't think another thing of it.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
It's odd because you don't a lot of cars parked
on beneerin drive. There's few houses there, and each of
them has got a long drive with space for a
few cars. So you don't park on the road if
you live there or if you're visiting, And you don't
go there unless you do live there or you've got
a good reason to do so. And something else is
(31:19):
odd too. William's foster mother told Leah Harris she forgot
about seeing the two cars, then remembered seeing them the
same night.
Speaker 10 (31:30):
I realized that night that William me seeing that I
had actually seen two cars, but she.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Told police she didn't remember this until a few days later.
Speaker 6 (31:44):
I remember reporting the other cars to the guys in
the place Rescue van that was parked here when we
picked up my sister from the airport. Was on the
way home from the airport. I'm driving the car and
I just went there were cars there, and my sister goes,
what cars. I've gone, Oh my god. So that's when
I've talked about the two cars.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So maybe that's a mistake. One time she says she
remembered seeing the cars that night, and another time she
says she remembered seeing the cars a few days later,
but there are other confusions. On one occasion, William's foster
mother seems to say one of the cars was on
the road the morning she reported William missing when the
(32:26):
first police officer arrived, his name was Chris Rowley.
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Because when Chris Rowley came up, he was a responding
policeman from when I called for below, I actually walked
across where that white station wagon was because I met
him on the road, and as Chris Rowley's coming up
in a room drive, I'm on the left hand side
standing near with that white car. That white station wagon was,
(32:52):
I've walked past it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
So it's not obvious there. If William's foster mother is
saying she walked past the whites station wagon when Chris
Rowley arrived, or if she's saying she walked past where
the station wagon had been. But in her interview with police,
she seems more certain. She says the cars weren't there
when Chris Rowley arrived.
Speaker 6 (33:15):
I'm not making this up. Those cars were there, and
they were outside that house, and when Chris Rowley came up,
those cars weren't there.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So listening to the different interviews, you might not be
sure if William's foster mother is consistent on whether the
station wagon was there or it wasn't.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
I mean, I found that the description of the cars.
I definitely noticed this as well, that she's been a
bit inconsistent about the timings of the cars. It seems
to me that the police that the police haven't been
able to verify at any point over the years that
(33:58):
the cars were there.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Right.
Speaker 11 (34:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
In his witness statement, Chris Rowney, the police officer, doesn't
mention the cars being there, and the police have asked
neighbors and nobody says they saw them. So why might
the cars be important?
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Well, the cars are important if we're looking at the
theory that William was abducted, right, So if we're looking
at the aduction theory, which is already statistically the least
likely thing yeah to have happened. Those cars being there
and the time that they were there is really really
(34:37):
important to nail down. If the cars in fact weren't there,
and they can verify that they weren't there, then that
makes a case in a completely different direction. So that's
just as important.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
And in different interviews, it's William's foster mum who keeps
coming back to the importance of her seeing those cars.
Speaker 10 (34:58):
So either they're involved or they've seen what happened, and
we just need them to come forward to say this
is what we thought.
Speaker 8 (35:09):
So from your memory, were they gone when you realize
that William had gone missing? Were they not there anymore?
Speaker 10 (35:15):
I realized that they weren't there that night when I
remembered walking across the road to see Chris Rowley.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
So there William's foster mother is again talking about remembering
seeing those cars that night. And to make it all
more confusing, there was a witness who was interviewed by
police only years later who described seeing a white Holden
driving near where William was reported missing on the day
he disappeared. Only that witness described seeing a Holden Sedan,
(35:51):
not a station wagon, which William's foster mother described, and
any inconsistency in someone's evidence, it can attracts suspicion.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
They took our laptops, were grilled.
Speaker 4 (36:04):
We were completely grilled, separately in isolations in back of
detectives vehicles. Every time they took my vehicle away. They
completely searched to check it, you know, I mean they did.
They did everything.
Speaker 14 (36:16):
And we had multiple conversations with multiple police people, and
you know, detectives and all sorts of other police always
just checking in, just looking at you know, corroborating things,
checking with us, all sorts of things.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
And I remember saying to you that we.
Speaker 16 (36:37):
Would have had to have been their prime suspects because
we were the last people to see him, and if
they didn't completely investigate us, I would be absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Gobsmacked, because you've got to rule us out.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I remember at the time, I was newspaper reporter speaking
to a senior detective days after William disappeared, and he
told me, we've ruled out both sets of parents. And
then the years passed and the Department of Family and
Community Services, so the state government body that manages. Foster
(37:21):
care continued to give William's foster parents other children to
look after, and that feels like a judgment on them
as parents as well, saying these guys are safe, we
can give them other children to look after. William's foster
parents kept calling for more public attention on William's disappearance for.
Speaker 9 (37:41):
Some wonderful kids.
Speaker 17 (37:42):
Ladies and gentlemen, would like to introduce you to the
Kendall Public School choir who were going to sing bring
Him Home, the official Where's William campaign theme song was
chosen by William's mummy and dad either we'd been rand
of Applain.
Speaker 18 (37:58):
We're coming up to a very important week, Where's William Week?
The search for little William checking.
Speaker 17 (38:04):
Up to one thousand people to pack into the Kendall
Showgrounds and so if they're important not only to William
Tyrell's family, but.
Speaker 18 (38:13):
What he's called a walk for William Now, these will
be held across New South Wales as well as flowers.
They're asking for everyone to get involved, get on board.
If you know something, please say something.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
We can't let people forget William.
Speaker 8 (38:30):
We can't.
Speaker 14 (38:31):
It's a three year old boy that was abducted. How
can we public police say that's okay and let it go.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
They also called for more police attention on William's disappearance,
including in this interview with Leah Harris.
Speaker 8 (38:51):
Will you ever give up fighting for him? Never?
Speaker 4 (38:55):
Never till my last breath?
Speaker 8 (38:58):
Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
If police think they've seen the last of.
Speaker 8 (39:02):
Us, big mistake, you won't be going quietly.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
We will not give up on William, and we will
not let other people give up on you. He's too
important to give up on. Never going to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Ever, William's foster parents have declined to be interviewed for
this series on advice from their lawyers. I have met them.
We meet in safe houses at different hotels, and when
we meet we turn off our phones, which might sound paranoid,
(39:39):
but they have reason to be paranoid. Williams foster parents
know in recent years that the police have been intercepting
their calls. They know they've had listening devices in their
homes and surveillance cameras outside it, and we'll get into
all of that later in this series. William's foster mother
has given us a written statement, and it's the first
(40:01):
time she said anything in public about William's disappearance. In
the years since she was publicly identified in the media
and by the police as a suspect. These are her words.
Just over ten years ago, my little boy, William Tyrrell,
disappeared from my mother's yard at her house at Kendall.
(40:23):
I believe that William was taken. I have no idea
who took William or what happened to him. If he
is in fact dead, I have no idea where his
little body is. I have no knowledge of or involvement
in his disappearance. Even though William was not my child
by birth, I loved William as much as any mother
(40:45):
could love her child. I loved him as if he
was my child by birth, if not more. It did
not matter one bits that he was not connected to
us biologically. William made my life complete. I loved him fiercely.
I just loved being his mummy. My life with William
(41:05):
was happy, fun and an adventure. Every day was different.
Never ever, for a moment did I regret becoming a
foster mother. We were a family, not the traditional version
of a family. It didn't matter. We were and still
are a family, and we connected as one. For the
past five years, the police have done nothing to try
(41:28):
to discover who took William and what has happened to him. Instead,
they have concentrated all their efforts on trying to build
a case that I was in some way to blame
for his death and the disposal of his precious little body.
They have gone to great lengths to blacken my character
in the media. I believe that if the police had
(41:49):
properly investigated this case instead of persecuting me, they may
well have found the person responsible for William's disappearance. It's
challenging to have hope and build plans for the future
when our hearts remain shattered and in pieces. All I
can hope for is that some person who knows something
(42:11):
comes forward. Working on this podcast, I drove up to
the house of Vett Elliot, the old friend of William's
foster parents, who told me about the Lane Cove Ladies.
We talked about how for years after William went missing,
different police seemed to agree the foster parents had nothing
(42:34):
to do with his disappearance, but something must have made
them suspicious, because Ivette told me how detectives turned up
at her house asking questions. In October twenty twenty one.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
It was incredibly targeted. It was very very targeted, and
they were trying to find something and I, you know,
I had nothing to give them.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
They told you they had a suspect, they didn't tell
you who it was at that stage.
Speaker 5 (43:02):
No, they didn't necessarily categorically mention William's mum. But when
you look back at the pointed questions and how much
time was spent on her personality, on her relationships, on
who she was as a person, then you know.
Speaker 8 (43:25):
It was very much.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
I became very much aware of who they were focused on.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Looking back now at that interview with the police and
everything that's happened before after William went missing, what's your
perspective of the police now? And has that changed?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Before?
Speaker 5 (43:48):
I had the absolute respect for police, and when I
was eighteen, I wanted to join the police. So I
absolutely held the police in the highest regard. I don't
feel that way anymore. I'm nervous for William's mum and
dad because it feels like a very targeted campaign and
(44:13):
now their attention has only turned to one person, and
that terrifies me.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
After leaving events, I also spoke to two other friends
of William's foster parents. They both described how the police
came asking questions.
Speaker 7 (44:29):
I found the questioning quite I didn't understand why they
wanted to know about her past boyfriends, and like, what's
the relevance asking me things like what sort of family
were they? And I just said, they're just a normal family.
Well do they sit down and have dinner together? And
I'm like, yeah, I don't know. They just felt like
(44:50):
they were trying. It felt like they knew what they
wanted to know and they were trying to find evidence
to support that. And I was like, wrong person, I'm
the wrong person.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Why were you the wrong person?
Speaker 7 (45:05):
Well, because I don't believe they had anything to do
with William's disappearance. So, and I've known his foster mother
since nineteen ninety six, right, and I know her well.
I've been on holidays with her, I've been her bridesmaid, Like,
I know her well.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
There's also something else, another reason I wanted to talk
to this woman in particular. That's because her name came
up in court last year. One of the detectives investigating
William's disappearance, Sean Ogilvie, was giving evidence about all the
evidence they've gathered, including, quote, a substantial number of witness statements.
(45:46):
Sean Oglevie said four people had declined to give a
witness statement, and he named them. This woman is one
of those four people, and you're one of those four names.
What did you think when you heard that?
Speaker 7 (46:02):
Huh?
Speaker 14 (46:03):
I was.
Speaker 7 (46:05):
Just super angry, super angry that my friends had to
sit in a court room and hear that I refused
to support them because I was never asked. I did
not decline. I was never asked. I was never even
asked to provide a statement or that reference or whatever
it was. I have provided other references in the past.
(46:26):
I've recently been asked to provide one for my friend's lawyer.
I did it that day. I was never ever asked
to provide that, and it made me very angry that
my name was read out and that they had to
sit there and listen to that.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
If you had been asked to give a statement, what
would you have said?
Speaker 7 (46:44):
Well, I don't know. I don't know anything about what
they were asking. I don't know what they were asking
for because I was never asked.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
If they were asking you, if you'd ever seen any
evidence that William's foster mum or foster dad could intimidate
a child.
Speaker 7 (47:02):
What would you have said, Yeah, I've seen the dad
be a bit cranky, but nothing outside the ordinary bounds
of parenting. Parenting kids is hard, Not everyone's an angel.
You lose your temper sometimes, but that's what I would
have said, not physical though.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Do you think they were good parents?
Speaker 7 (47:20):
I do, I really do. They really made a family
for those children. They really They got into bike riding
and you know the back room at their house before
they renovated, the whole back room was just for the
kid's play area, with childboards, bags of toys, and there
was always laughter in that house. They were a fun family.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And that's what you would have told the police if
you had given that statement. Yeah, So did the police
get confused? Were they mistaken to say this woman declined
to give a witness statement? Why are the police targeting
Williams foster parents? And who's in charge of their investigation?
(48:06):
That's next time on Witness. If you know anything about
William's disappearance, please contact crimestoppers. There's a number in the
show notes for this series, but if there's anything you
want to tell us, you can email Witness at News
(48:27):
dot com dot au or I'm on social media and
it can be completely confidential. A lot of different people
have been involved in making this series. Among them, the
executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design was by
Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon, Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar,
(48:47):
Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Voice acting on this
episode by Bridget Bush, Research by Adan Patrick, original music
by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer is Stephen Coombs. The editor
at news dot com dot a U is Kerry Warren.
I'm Dan Box
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