June 5, 2025 • 22 mins
This is a teaser preview of one of our Fireside Chat episodes, made exclusively for our supporters on Patreon. You can listen to the full 104-minute episode without ads and support our work at https://www.patreon.com/posts/e105-fireside-in-127749416
In this episode, we spoke to one of our hosts, John, about his experiences organising at work in the public sector, first as an agency worker, then a permanent employee, and as a member and representative of Unison, the UK’s largest public sector union.
In the full episode, we go into detail about some small local disputes and victories, and how these connected with the dynamics of large, national disputes – in particular, the public sector pensions dispute of 2011. We also talk about the relationship between union officialdom and struggles on the shopfloor.
While these experiences are specific to John, we do think many of the dynamics are pretty common, with similarities with many workplaces – especially office-based ones.
Our podcast is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. Our supporters fund our work, and in return get exclusive early access to podcast episodes, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, free and discounted merchandise and other content. Join us or find out more at patreon.com/workingclasshistory
Acknowledgements
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-class-history--5711490/support.
In this episode, we spoke to one of our hosts, John, about his experiences organising at work in the public sector, first as an agency worker, then a permanent employee, and as a member and representative of Unison, the UK’s largest public sector union.
In the full episode, we go into detail about some small local disputes and victories, and how these connected with the dynamics of large, national disputes – in particular, the public sector pensions dispute of 2011. We also talk about the relationship between union officialdom and struggles on the shopfloor.
While these experiences are specific to John, we do think many of the dynamics are pretty common, with similarities with many workplaces – especially office-based ones.
Our podcast is brought to you by our Patreon supporters. Our supporters fund our work, and in return get exclusive early access to podcast episodes, ad-free episodes, bonus episodes, free and discounted merchandise and other content. Join us or find out more at patreon.com/workingclasshistory
Acknowledgements
- Thanks to our Patreon supporters for making this podcast possible. Special thanks to Jazz Hands, Fernando López Ojeda and Old Norm.
- Edited by Jesse French
- Our theme tune is Montaigne’s version of the classic labour movement anthem, ‘Bread and Roses’, performed by Montaigne and Nick Harriott, and mixed by Wave Racer. Download the song here, with all proceeds going to Medical Aid for Palestinians. More from Montaigne: website, Instagram, YouTube.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/working-class-history--5711490/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone. As you might know, we don't get any
sort of funding from any wealthy benefactors, academic institutions, governments,
or political parties. Our work is funded by you, our
listeners and readers on Patreon. In return, our supporters on
Patreon get access to exclusive content and benefits like ad
free episodes, bonus podcast episodes, and two exclusive Patreon only
(00:23):
podcast series, Fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a
little preview of our latest Patreon only episode. You can
join us, help support our work, and listen to the
full episode today at patreon dot com slash working class
history link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
As we come margin Martin and the Beauty of the
Day a million dark in kegeens one thousand mil last
grade are branden by the beauty. His sun Sun discloses
on the papers red and roses, Red and roses.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
You know, I was friendly with the fellow Tempts and things,
so we just kind of would chat about this, that
and the other, and so kind of started asking questions
about our working conditions and pay and that sort of thing.
And it turned out that even though we were all tempts,
all in the same kind of job, doing the same
level of work, kind of admin clerical work. Basically, we
(01:30):
were all getting completely different race of pay. So we
kind of thought, well, obviously, why don't we try and
do something about this. So we all got together and said, well,
whoever gets the most pay, let's say, well, let's talk
to our agencies and accounts and be like, we should
all be paid this because we were all doing the
same work, so we should get the paid the same thing.
(01:52):
So we did that, got back to our agencies and
that was successful. So it was a really small thing,
but it was great for us because out of the
five or six of us, all of except one got
to decent pay rise out of it. So it was
like a good start. And then beyond that, while I
was there, there was a big national public sector strike
(02:15):
about pens and cuts. This was in two thousand and six,
and so, like as I said, I couldn't do much
to support the strike generally other than you know, I
was saying, I wasn't going to go in. But although
my manager, who was permanent, I was talking to her
before the strike and she was a Unison member as well,
(02:36):
But as we were talking about it, she was saying, oh,
I don't think I'm allowed to strike because I'm a manager,
So I had to be like, I mean a I mean, okay,
you're normally a manager, but you only manage me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, let's let's not get too big for your boots, mate, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's like you're not the queen or something like maybe
the queen, maybe she's not supposed to go on strike.
But also even if you are a manager, like, yeah,
what do you think this is? Like, yeah, you can
go on strike, that's fine. And so again, like I
tried to talk to my fellow tempts about it, because
when the talk of the strike started, the building I
was in wasn't a particularly the union wasn't strong in
(03:13):
that building, as you can probably get, you know, from
the manager not knowing that they could, and the only
union rep there not really being interested in building a
union at work, but being more interested in building a
left wing political party outside of work, you can say.
So the other temps kind of were talking about the
strike in a bit like you know, I think you've
(03:35):
spoken about them before about media images of what unions
are like, thinking it would be kind of like images
of the nineteen seventies, these people trying to stop you
at the picket line and shout mean things at you
as you go in. So they were kind of talking
about how they wouldn't care about a picket line. They
would come, you know, they would defy it, as if
that was like the rebellious thing to do would be
(03:57):
to defy a picket line. So you know, I'd to
talk to him about that and be like like really no,
like you know, I mean, also, all of the tempts
wanted permanent jobs in this place. They all wanted because
you know, we were doing the same work as permanent
people on less than half the money, with no holiday pay,
(04:22):
no sick pay, no pension or any of that. So
it's like, we all want one of these jobs in
the future. So if their pension is better, that means
that our pension will be better when we get one.
So we should try and help them improve their conditions.
And also like, if you actually want to be like
rebellious and define anyone, then you should be defined the
(04:43):
government and the employers.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, exactly, you should be defy your employer and defy
the government rather than your workmate.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, I mean on the day when when the
strike actually happened, I didn't go I went to join
picket lines, but not at my building because I was
a temp and I I lost a temptal previously for
not crossing a picket line, so I went to a
different building. So on the day, I don't actually know
(05:14):
what happened with the other temps that went in, and
also is quite a long time ago, but I would
be hopeful that some of them maybe didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Go or either that or they're all like, I know
you're ship about John. I'm not going to let him
bully me into not crossing the picket line, but yeah,
like you.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Know, it's so it's not the most inspiring ending. Maybe
it would be better to make something up and be like, yes,
and they flipped a police car outside the office and
set it on fire.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah. And then and then they carried me on their
shoulders and they went yes, John, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Like it was like that scene in June with Timothy Shabladoo.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Also, sorry, just I wouldn't because I didn't know there
was the other story that you you just you mentioned
that I didn't actually ever know about. But are you
telling me that at a previous job that you had,
there was a strike and you were a temp and
you didn't cross the picket line, and you just stood
outside the workplace, like you know, on the picket line
(06:22):
with the with the workers there. And then whatppened Like
your employer just stuck their head out the window and
was like that's John, I'm getting rid of that guy.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I mean basically, yeah, I was working at I was
working as a temp at this Yeah, I was working
as a temp in London at another office, and the
union there started a wave of rolling strikes for like
more maternity pay and like half day strikes once a week,
(06:55):
and I kind of told my colleagues and my team
that like I wouldn't sort of cross a picket line,
and they were kind of like, I mean, yeah, like
maybe you should do so you don't get fired. But
I did. But I went and I joined the picket line.
And then and then I got fired, although like weirdly,
(07:18):
like there was so basically like my immediate team and
the manager my I had kind of two supervisors. They
then went and complained to their like head of department
and said because they were both joining the strike, and
they went and complained, and so then they got me
like reinstated for like three days or something. And then
like at the end of the week, They're like, okay,
(07:40):
and now your contractors come to an end, you know,
So it seemed like you're not being fired for not
crossing a picket line this time, just your contract to
come to an end. But it's like, I mean, I
hadn't been told my contract was coming to an end,
so I basically think they fired me again, like they
just waited. But you know, I mean it was only
a temp job.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Like, so you were fired twice for not crossing a
picket line.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Exactly, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
To rehire him, just like can fire him again, that
red son of a bitch.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, you know, you can't get rid of me firing
me just on, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Exactly, fire me one me, no, no, the other way around, fire.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Me twice, yeah okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
But anyway, so like at some point you were taken
on permanently and so yeah, so what what was that like?
And how did that?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
It was amazing? I got I got hired, and I'm like, right,
I'm getting ill. All the illnesses I've been putting off
for like seven six, seven, eight years or whatever, I'm
having all those illnesses now.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah. Licking door knobs for the Italian listeners. I'd open
the window a crack when I'm in the car, you know,
put the air conditioning on.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, oh man, that's the niche joke.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I'm sure how many Italian listeners we had. Yeah, that's
too niche.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
But yeah, So how how did that try to change
your organizing and how did your organizing then sort of
fit into the dynamics the demographics of your new workplace.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, so the place I was working, Yeah, basically it
was a team of about eighty people. I was like
the youngest person in the office on my first day
when I arrived, Like because the office, the team, they
work with young people, they work with clients. And I
got there and then people spoke to me afterwards and
(09:37):
they said when I arrived, they thought I was one
of the clients, Like they thought I was one of
the young people who maysaged to turn my life around
kind of thing, you know. So also, you know, I
was the youngest in the office. Also I looked like
I was twelve, So I did not start organizing immediately.
(09:57):
And also I was on probation for the first like
six months, so I kind of kept my head down
and made sure that I did my job what especially
as like I'm like not very good at being punctual.
Like I was about forty five minutes late on my
first day and pretty much after that, I was pretty
much never on time a single day for the whole
(10:19):
rest of my career. I'm not a morning person.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I feel like you are exactly the kind of like
the kind of figure that the right wing press talks
about when they talk about public sector workers turning up late,
you know, protected by union barons. Who are you know
you can't sack them because yeah, they're protected by the union.
(10:46):
But so you spent the first six months trying to
grow facial hair so that your your your workmates wouldn't
think that you were a young person.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, a young sort of client. And so I did.
I joined the union. Well, I was already in the
union as a temp, but as a as an employee
at least got time off to go to union meetings.
I mean there was only like big branch meetings, so
I think it was only like one or two a year,
But that was exciting to go to an actual kind
(11:16):
of like union meeting with a bunch of other workers there.
It was really exciting. The first time that I went.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Was it because I remember the first maybe also my
first union branch meeting that I went to, and I
remember similar to a feeling of being like, oh, this
is going to be really exciting, but my union branch
was a little bit an emic and there wasn't all
that much happening there. And also that feeling of so
(11:46):
much of the branch activity not having to do with
the workplace, you know, that was what I really kind
of what really hit me, and it took me a
long time to kind of to get my head around it,
even at first that like, you know, I was going
to like branch meetings, you know, because I was I
was the shop steward at my workplace. But there was
(12:08):
just this disconnect from between what was going on in
my workplace and what was going on in my branch.
And I remember kind of being like, you know, am
I just getting an afternoon off work here? You know
what I mean? That was, yeah, but your your branch
meetings were different.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Well, it was an AGM, so it was like an
all members meeting, right, and there were some local issue
at the time, and there was like a national pay thing,
so there were like one hundred odd people there. That
was just kind of exciting to see, you know, because
before I'd only ever known like one other union person
in the building, and yeah, and here.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
There was I tried to get to hand out leaflets.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Exactly and sell papers, so and here there was like
one hundred and the talk was about stuff at work primarily,
So yeah, it was quite like exciting. I mean. Also
another thing is having this like a job was a
very big thing for me personally because I had been
tendinged for so long with no sick pay and stuff,
and one of my temp jobs, I got injured and
(13:07):
had to go to the hospital and was off work
for like months with no sick pay, and it was
really bad. So I really wanted to make sure I
didn't lose the job. So I was, I mean, other
than being timely, which is like, you know, I'll I'll
do anything for love, but I won't do that kind
of kind of thing, you know. You know, I was
being like good other than that, And then after a while,
(13:29):
basically my strategy was, well, I'll do this, I'll be
late all the time, but then if it ever comes up,
I'll just be like, oh I thought I was on
flexible stars. You know. That was my sort of strategyfe crime. Yeah,
so I wanted to be very careful not to lose it.
And also, yeah, like I said, I was the youngest
person there, you know, young white bloke, and most of
(13:51):
the people in my team were It was mostly women,
mostly middle age, mostly parents, and about fifty percent people
have mostly most of the people of color being black.
So I wasn't like representative of the team as a whole.
They were all a lot older than me and more
experienced and had more responsibility in life and that kind
(14:13):
of thing. So, you know, it's not the kind of
place where you can go in and then just start
telling people what to do and be like, you know,
like quote, well I don't like about some left you know,
is when they talk about organizing people, you know, going
and organized, like you're kind of lining up your sort
of soldiers and telling them what to do whatever. You know,
(14:34):
you've got to pay your dues. So yeah, I was
just sort of putting my head down, do my job,
basically learning as much as you can, getting to know
everyone and just talking and listening more, just listening to people,
you know, understanding the connections between different people, Understanding like
where power lies in the organization, and outside the connections
(14:57):
between the team and other areas what managers to people like,
what managers to people not like who are kind of
influential employees and who are people that keep themselves themselves
and also go in team meetings see like which people
are like ask challenging questions in team meetings and things
like that, and just kind of making notes and just
(15:19):
hearing things about gripes and what are the kind of
things people are complaining about. And at the same time,
as a worker, trying to make yourself indispensable, like doing
stuff to help out your colleagues so that you know,
you become popular in the office, but also kind of
trying to get as much knowledge as you can to
make yourself kind of indispensable, which is good for any
(15:40):
worker anyway, because that's kind of what you want to
not get canned, is to make yourself indispensable and try
and monopolize all kinds of information. So that's kind of
what I was doing. And the team I was in
was quite it was quite a horrible atmosphere a lot
of the time because the head of our department was
a real bully. She was horrible and nobody liked her.
(16:07):
Like as an example of how she was, like once
she wanted to have a go at me for something
which was nothing to do with me, but she literally
stood next to me, stamped her feet and screamed, you know,
that kind of childish behavior. And also people in the
team would just like disappear, so that people we work
(16:29):
with for a long time and then they would just
never be seen again because they'd been basically suspended secretly
and then fired kind of in secrets. So there was
a lot of stuff people were unhappy with. And then
I think it was probably after like a year and
a half of being there that there was like a
(16:50):
really key sort of incident in the team that everyone
was totally up in arms about, and that's when it
sort of changed things. So basically, the person I worked
with most closely was a woman who had been there,
like she'd been in the department ever since it was founded.
(17:11):
She'd been there over thirty years, and she was kind
of like she was an admin clerical worker like me.
She kind of did my onboarding, and she was really
well respected and liked by everyone in the team. She
was kind of like the Muma of the office, is
how people thought of her and how she thought of herself,
and one day the department head had her demoted from
(17:34):
her general job as a kind of office manager, you know, administrator,
to be her PA, which was a lower ranked job
in the council. Jobs have a job ranking system, so
it was a lower ranked job. And she even like
made this announcement in a team meeting because I think
(17:57):
at the same time also, you know, someone was fired,
someone someone was left, so she even made this announcement
being like, well, bad news, like this person has left,
this person has gone, because I don't say that this
person who left, but in positive news for the team,
I've got a PA. And which is just so tone
deaf because the woman this happened to like getting demotive
(18:17):
because I tried to, you know, talk to her about
opposing it because in a legal and contractual sense, it's
not something they could actually do. And after it became
a union rep. You know, this happened to various people,
and I was able to stop it immediately just by
writing an email because they can't actually do that. But
she was not a member of Unison. She was a
(18:38):
member of the GMB, which in some places in the
UK is a good union, especially amongst manual grades. But
the way the GMB functioned in my counsel was it
was mostly a union for people to join who wanted
individual protection to work, but didn't want to have to
(18:58):
take part in Unison stride because Unison regularly took strikes
for things like pay and against pension cuts, whereas GMB didn't.
So it was a way they could feel like they
got individual protection without having to take pine strikes. And
that was the union she was part of, and they
didn't do anything to give her any individual protection. And
it was just so sad because she was just like
(19:20):
she'd but she didn't even want to fight it because
she just felt so totally demoralized by it. She was
totally like broken by the whole that she was just
devastated really, and everyone was really upset, and especially with
this other person who'd been fired at the same time.
There was so much and I kind of at this point,
you know, it had been there a year and a half,
so I started to kind of be vocal about this
(19:41):
sort of thing and ask, like ask really annoying difficult
questions to cause problems for management, just because I don't
know if you know this about me, but I'm kind
of her dick.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah I've noticed yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
A lot of the time. And I just quite liked
just being dick, and so that's what I was kind
of doing to management, but also in a way that
they can't really get mad by just yeah, asking kind
of difficult questions that will cause them problems.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Do you think you could give me an example of
one of these dickish questions that you used to ask.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Well, yeah, okay, sure. He Like one example was our
like our department head. Someone asked her in this team meeting,
why is this person no longer with this you know,
who'd basically been fired, And she said, well, it's not
appropriate to comment on staffing matters and team meetings. So
(20:41):
I just put my hand up and then I was like, so,
if you said it's not appropriate to talk about staffing
matters in team meetings, then why was the whole section
before this you talking about staffing matters when you were
talking about this new member that's coming in and this
person who's leaving, you know, a different member of staff.
So you know that ditch question.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But I can imagine that she would have she would
have been sitting there fuming at you.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, exactly. It was obviously, you know, it's awsome. I mean,
it was also a dickish question because you can't give
confidential staff information in a meeting, you know, but everyone
based only yeah that's what she said. So yeah, yeah,
people sort of snickered. And then you know, some people
came and spoke to me afterwards, and that was a
good opportunity to have some conversations and meet people who
(21:27):
also have issues with management and like challenging them. So
a couple of people came to me after it and
they were like, well, why don't you become like a
union rep for the team? And one of the people
that came to me was like a mid fifties black
woman who was one of the people that came, and
I kind of said, well, I knew that you could
become a shop steward on a job share basis, So
(21:50):
I kind of say, well, it's too much for me
to do on my own, and I don't feel that
i'm like representative enough of the team and I haven't
been here long enough. But you know, if you want
to do it on a job share, I'll do it
on a job share basis with you. And that was
actually a really great thing to do. And she agreed,
and then we signed up and went from there basically.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
As we come Martin, Martin and the Beauty of the day.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That brings us to the end of this episode. Preview
To listen to the full thing and help support our
work researching and promoting people's history, join us on Patreon
at patreon dot com slash working class History link in
the show notes.
Hi everyone. As you might know, we don't get any
sort of funding from any wealthy benefactors, academic institutions, governments,
or political parties. Our work is funded by you, our
listeners and readers on Patreon. In return, our supporters on
Patreon get access to exclusive content and benefits like ad
free episodes, bonus podcast episodes, and two exclusive Patreon only
(00:23):
podcast series, Fireside Chats and Radical Reads. So here's a
little preview of our latest Patreon only episode. You can
join us, help support our work, and listen to the
full episode today at patreon dot com slash working class
history link in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
As we come margin Martin and the Beauty of the
Day a million dark in kegeens one thousand mil last
grade are branden by the beauty. His sun Sun discloses
on the papers red and roses, Red and roses.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
You know, I was friendly with the fellow Tempts and things,
so we just kind of would chat about this, that
and the other, and so kind of started asking questions
about our working conditions and pay and that sort of thing.
And it turned out that even though we were all tempts,
all in the same kind of job, doing the same
level of work, kind of admin clerical work. Basically, we
(01:30):
were all getting completely different race of pay. So we
kind of thought, well, obviously, why don't we try and
do something about this. So we all got together and said, well,
whoever gets the most pay, let's say, well, let's talk
to our agencies and accounts and be like, we should
all be paid this because we were all doing the
same work, so we should get the paid the same thing.
(01:52):
So we did that, got back to our agencies and
that was successful. So it was a really small thing,
but it was great for us because out of the
five or six of us, all of except one got
to decent pay rise out of it. So it was
like a good start. And then beyond that, while I
was there, there was a big national public sector strike
(02:15):
about pens and cuts. This was in two thousand and six,
and so, like as I said, I couldn't do much
to support the strike generally other than you know, I
was saying, I wasn't going to go in. But although
my manager, who was permanent, I was talking to her
before the strike and she was a Unison member as well,
(02:36):
But as we were talking about it, she was saying, oh,
I don't think I'm allowed to strike because I'm a manager,
So I had to be like, I mean a I mean, okay,
you're normally a manager, but you only manage me.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, let's let's not get too big for your boots, mate, Exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's like you're not the queen or something like maybe
the queen, maybe she's not supposed to go on strike.
But also even if you are a manager, like, yeah,
what do you think this is? Like, yeah, you can
go on strike, that's fine. And so again, like I
tried to talk to my fellow tempts about it, because
when the talk of the strike started, the building I
was in wasn't a particularly the union wasn't strong in
(03:13):
that building, as you can probably get, you know, from
the manager not knowing that they could, and the only
union rep there not really being interested in building a
union at work, but being more interested in building a
left wing political party outside of work, you can say.
So the other temps kind of were talking about the
strike in a bit like you know, I think you've
(03:35):
spoken about them before about media images of what unions
are like, thinking it would be kind of like images
of the nineteen seventies, these people trying to stop you
at the picket line and shout mean things at you
as you go in. So they were kind of talking
about how they wouldn't care about a picket line. They
would come, you know, they would defy it, as if
that was like the rebellious thing to do would be
(03:57):
to defy a picket line. So you know, I'd to
talk to him about that and be like like really no,
like you know, I mean, also, all of the tempts
wanted permanent jobs in this place. They all wanted because
you know, we were doing the same work as permanent
people on less than half the money, with no holiday pay,
(04:22):
no sick pay, no pension or any of that. So
it's like, we all want one of these jobs in
the future. So if their pension is better, that means
that our pension will be better when we get one.
So we should try and help them improve their conditions.
And also like, if you actually want to be like
rebellious and define anyone, then you should be defined the
(04:43):
government and the employers.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, exactly, you should be defy your employer and defy
the government rather than your workmate.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
So yeah, I mean on the day when when the
strike actually happened, I didn't go I went to join
picket lines, but not at my building because I was
a temp and I I lost a temptal previously for
not crossing a picket line, so I went to a
different building. So on the day, I don't actually know
(05:14):
what happened with the other temps that went in, and
also is quite a long time ago, but I would
be hopeful that some of them maybe didn't.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Go or either that or they're all like, I know
you're ship about John. I'm not going to let him
bully me into not crossing the picket line, but yeah,
like you.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
Know, it's so it's not the most inspiring ending. Maybe
it would be better to make something up and be like, yes,
and they flipped a police car outside the office and
set it on fire.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Yeah. And then and then they carried me on their
shoulders and they went yes, John, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Like it was like that scene in June with Timothy Shabladoo.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Also, sorry, just I wouldn't because I didn't know there
was the other story that you you just you mentioned
that I didn't actually ever know about. But are you
telling me that at a previous job that you had,
there was a strike and you were a temp and
you didn't cross the picket line, and you just stood
outside the workplace, like you know, on the picket line
(06:22):
with the with the workers there. And then whatppened Like
your employer just stuck their head out the window and
was like that's John, I'm getting rid of that guy.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I mean basically, yeah, I was working at I was
working as a temp at this Yeah, I was working
as a temp in London at another office, and the
union there started a wave of rolling strikes for like
more maternity pay and like half day strikes once a week,
(06:55):
and I kind of told my colleagues and my team
that like I wouldn't sort of cross a picket line,
and they were kind of like, I mean, yeah, like
maybe you should do so you don't get fired. But
I did. But I went and I joined the picket line.
And then and then I got fired, although like weirdly,
(07:18):
like there was so basically like my immediate team and
the manager my I had kind of two supervisors. They
then went and complained to their like head of department
and said because they were both joining the strike, and
they went and complained, and so then they got me
like reinstated for like three days or something. And then
like at the end of the week, They're like, okay,
(07:40):
and now your contractors come to an end, you know,
So it seemed like you're not being fired for not
crossing a picket line this time, just your contract to
come to an end. But it's like, I mean, I
hadn't been told my contract was coming to an end,
so I basically think they fired me again, like they
just waited. But you know, I mean it was only
a temp job.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Like, so you were fired twice for not crossing a
picket line.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Exactly, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
To rehire him, just like can fire him again, that
red son of a bitch.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, you know, you can't get rid of me firing
me just on, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Exactly, fire me one me, no, no, the other way around, fire.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Me twice, yeah okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
But anyway, so like at some point you were taken
on permanently and so yeah, so what what was that like?
And how did that?
Speaker 3 (08:37):
It was amazing? I got I got hired, and I'm like, right,
I'm getting ill. All the illnesses I've been putting off
for like seven six, seven, eight years or whatever, I'm
having all those illnesses now.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Yeah. Licking door knobs for the Italian listeners. I'd open
the window a crack when I'm in the car, you know,
put the air conditioning on.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Yeah, oh man, that's the niche joke.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I'm sure how many Italian listeners we had. Yeah, that's
too niche.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
But yeah, So how how did that try to change
your organizing and how did your organizing then sort of
fit into the dynamics the demographics of your new workplace.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, so the place I was working, Yeah, basically it
was a team of about eighty people. I was like
the youngest person in the office on my first day
when I arrived, Like because the office, the team, they
work with young people, they work with clients. And I
got there and then people spoke to me afterwards and
(09:37):
they said when I arrived, they thought I was one
of the clients, Like they thought I was one of
the young people who maysaged to turn my life around
kind of thing, you know. So also, you know, I
was the youngest in the office. Also I looked like
I was twelve, So I did not start organizing immediately.
(09:57):
And also I was on probation for the first like
six months, so I kind of kept my head down
and made sure that I did my job what especially
as like I'm like not very good at being punctual.
Like I was about forty five minutes late on my
first day and pretty much after that, I was pretty
much never on time a single day for the whole
(10:19):
rest of my career. I'm not a morning person.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
I feel like you are exactly the kind of like
the kind of figure that the right wing press talks
about when they talk about public sector workers turning up late,
you know, protected by union barons. Who are you know
you can't sack them because yeah, they're protected by the union.
(10:46):
But so you spent the first six months trying to
grow facial hair so that your your your workmates wouldn't
think that you were a young person.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, a young sort of client. And so I did.
I joined the union. Well, I was already in the
union as a temp, but as a as an employee
at least got time off to go to union meetings.
I mean there was only like big branch meetings, so
I think it was only like one or two a year,
But that was exciting to go to an actual kind
(11:16):
of like union meeting with a bunch of other workers there.
It was really exciting. The first time that I went.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Was it because I remember the first maybe also my
first union branch meeting that I went to, and I
remember similar to a feeling of being like, oh, this
is going to be really exciting, but my union branch
was a little bit an emic and there wasn't all
that much happening there. And also that feeling of so
(11:46):
much of the branch activity not having to do with
the workplace, you know, that was what I really kind
of what really hit me, and it took me a
long time to kind of to get my head around it,
even at first that like, you know, I was going
to like branch meetings, you know, because I was I
was the shop steward at my workplace. But there was
(12:08):
just this disconnect from between what was going on in
my workplace and what was going on in my branch.
And I remember kind of being like, you know, am
I just getting an afternoon off work here? You know
what I mean? That was, yeah, but your your branch
meetings were different.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
Well, it was an AGM, so it was like an
all members meeting, right, and there were some local issue
at the time, and there was like a national pay thing,
so there were like one hundred odd people there. That
was just kind of exciting to see, you know, because
before I'd only ever known like one other union person
in the building, and yeah, and here.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
There was I tried to get to hand out leaflets.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Exactly and sell papers, so and here there was like
one hundred and the talk was about stuff at work primarily,
So yeah, it was quite like exciting. I mean. Also
another thing is having this like a job was a
very big thing for me personally because I had been
tendinged for so long with no sick pay and stuff,
and one of my temp jobs, I got injured and
(13:07):
had to go to the hospital and was off work
for like months with no sick pay, and it was
really bad. So I really wanted to make sure I
didn't lose the job. So I was, I mean, other
than being timely, which is like, you know, I'll I'll
do anything for love, but I won't do that kind
of kind of thing, you know. You know, I was
being like good other than that, And then after a while,
(13:29):
basically my strategy was, well, I'll do this, I'll be
late all the time, but then if it ever comes up,
I'll just be like, oh I thought I was on
flexible stars. You know. That was my sort of strategyfe crime. Yeah,
so I wanted to be very careful not to lose it.
And also, yeah, like I said, I was the youngest
person there, you know, young white bloke, and most of
(13:51):
the people in my team were It was mostly women,
mostly middle age, mostly parents, and about fifty percent people
have mostly most of the people of color being black.
So I wasn't like representative of the team as a whole.
They were all a lot older than me and more
experienced and had more responsibility in life and that kind
(14:13):
of thing. So, you know, it's not the kind of
place where you can go in and then just start
telling people what to do and be like, you know,
like quote, well I don't like about some left you know,
is when they talk about organizing people, you know, going
and organized, like you're kind of lining up your sort
of soldiers and telling them what to do whatever. You know,
(14:34):
you've got to pay your dues. So yeah, I was
just sort of putting my head down, do my job,
basically learning as much as you can, getting to know
everyone and just talking and listening more, just listening to people,
you know, understanding the connections between different people, Understanding like
where power lies in the organization, and outside the connections
(14:57):
between the team and other areas what managers to people like,
what managers to people not like who are kind of
influential employees and who are people that keep themselves themselves
and also go in team meetings see like which people
are like ask challenging questions in team meetings and things
like that, and just kind of making notes and just
(15:19):
hearing things about gripes and what are the kind of
things people are complaining about. And at the same time,
as a worker, trying to make yourself indispensable, like doing
stuff to help out your colleagues so that you know,
you become popular in the office, but also kind of
trying to get as much knowledge as you can to
make yourself kind of indispensable, which is good for any
(15:40):
worker anyway, because that's kind of what you want to
not get canned, is to make yourself indispensable and try
and monopolize all kinds of information. So that's kind of
what I was doing. And the team I was in
was quite it was quite a horrible atmosphere a lot
of the time because the head of our department was
a real bully. She was horrible and nobody liked her.
(16:07):
Like as an example of how she was, like once
she wanted to have a go at me for something
which was nothing to do with me, but she literally
stood next to me, stamped her feet and screamed, you know,
that kind of childish behavior. And also people in the
team would just like disappear, so that people we work
(16:29):
with for a long time and then they would just
never be seen again because they'd been basically suspended secretly
and then fired kind of in secrets. So there was
a lot of stuff people were unhappy with. And then
I think it was probably after like a year and
a half of being there that there was like a
(16:50):
really key sort of incident in the team that everyone
was totally up in arms about, and that's when it
sort of changed things. So basically, the person I worked
with most closely was a woman who had been there,
like she'd been in the department ever since it was founded.
(17:11):
She'd been there over thirty years, and she was kind
of like she was an admin clerical worker like me.
She kind of did my onboarding, and she was really
well respected and liked by everyone in the team. She
was kind of like the Muma of the office, is
how people thought of her and how she thought of herself,
and one day the department head had her demoted from
(17:34):
her general job as a kind of office manager, you know, administrator,
to be her PA, which was a lower ranked job
in the council. Jobs have a job ranking system, so
it was a lower ranked job. And she even like
made this announcement in a team meeting because I think
(17:57):
at the same time also, you know, someone was fired,
someone someone was left, so she even made this announcement
being like, well, bad news, like this person has left,
this person has gone, because I don't say that this
person who left, but in positive news for the team,
I've got a PA. And which is just so tone
deaf because the woman this happened to like getting demotive
(18:17):
because I tried to, you know, talk to her about
opposing it because in a legal and contractual sense, it's
not something they could actually do. And after it became
a union rep. You know, this happened to various people,
and I was able to stop it immediately just by
writing an email because they can't actually do that. But
she was not a member of Unison. She was a
(18:38):
member of the GMB, which in some places in the
UK is a good union, especially amongst manual grades. But
the way the GMB functioned in my counsel was it
was mostly a union for people to join who wanted
individual protection to work, but didn't want to have to
(18:58):
take part in Unison stride because Unison regularly took strikes
for things like pay and against pension cuts, whereas GMB didn't.
So it was a way they could feel like they
got individual protection without having to take pine strikes. And
that was the union she was part of, and they
didn't do anything to give her any individual protection. And
it was just so sad because she was just like
(19:20):
she'd but she didn't even want to fight it because
she just felt so totally demoralized by it. She was
totally like broken by the whole that she was just
devastated really, and everyone was really upset, and especially with
this other person who'd been fired at the same time.
There was so much and I kind of at this point,
you know, it had been there a year and a half,
so I started to kind of be vocal about this
(19:41):
sort of thing and ask, like ask really annoying difficult
questions to cause problems for management, just because I don't
know if you know this about me, but I'm kind
of her dick.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah I've noticed yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
A lot of the time. And I just quite liked
just being dick, and so that's what I was kind
of doing to management, but also in a way that
they can't really get mad by just yeah, asking kind
of difficult questions that will cause them problems.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Do you think you could give me an example of
one of these dickish questions that you used to ask.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
Well, yeah, okay, sure. He Like one example was our
like our department head. Someone asked her in this team meeting,
why is this person no longer with this you know,
who'd basically been fired, And she said, well, it's not
appropriate to comment on staffing matters and team meetings. So
(20:41):
I just put my hand up and then I was like, so,
if you said it's not appropriate to talk about staffing
matters in team meetings, then why was the whole section
before this you talking about staffing matters when you were
talking about this new member that's coming in and this
person who's leaving, you know, a different member of staff.
So you know that ditch question.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
But I can imagine that she would have she would
have been sitting there fuming at you.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah, exactly. It was obviously, you know, it's awsome. I mean,
it was also a dickish question because you can't give
confidential staff information in a meeting, you know, but everyone
based only yeah that's what she said. So yeah, yeah,
people sort of snickered. And then you know, some people
came and spoke to me afterwards, and that was a
good opportunity to have some conversations and meet people who
(21:27):
also have issues with management and like challenging them. So
a couple of people came to me after it and
they were like, well, why don't you become like a
union rep for the team? And one of the people
that came to me was like a mid fifties black
woman who was one of the people that came, and
I kind of said, well, I knew that you could
become a shop steward on a job share basis, So
(21:50):
I kind of say, well, it's too much for me
to do on my own, and I don't feel that
i'm like representative enough of the team and I haven't
been here long enough. But you know, if you want
to do it on a job share, I'll do it
on a job share basis with you. And that was
actually a really great thing to do. And she agreed,
and then we signed up and went from there basically.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
As we come Martin, Martin and the Beauty of the day.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
That brings us to the end of this episode. Preview
To listen to the full thing and help support our
work researching and promoting people's history, join us on Patreon
at patreon dot com slash working class History link in
the show notes.
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