Episode 240: Discover the Secrets of Enneagram and Attachment Styles: A Beginner's Guide! w/Todd Hall

This week on the podcast, we dive into the intersection of the Enneagram and Attachment Theory with our special guest, Dr. Todd Hall, author of The Connected Life: The Art and Science of Relational Spirituality.

During our conversation, we explore how loneliness—now recognized as an epidemic—affects us and how it might manifest differently for each Enneagram type.

Tune in to discover:

• How the Enneagram and Attachment Theory intersect.
• The surprising ways loneliness impacts your health.
• Practical steps to combat disconnection in your life and relationships.

Thank you to our guest:
Adam Breckenridge - https://myenneagramcoach.com/coach/adam-breckenridge/ 

Dr. Todd Hall

• Go to https://www.relationalspirituality.co/ to find out more about Relational Spirituality Coaching. 
• Find his masterclass here https://www.crowdcast.io/c/rsccsep2024?utm_campaign=rscc_mc_sep4_2024&utm_medium=email&utm_source=twh
• Relational Spirituality Coaching Certification - https://www.relationalspirituality.co/rscc-earlybird

We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com. 

FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources 

Find an Enneagram Coach - https://myenneagramcoach.com/ 

Become an Enneagram Coach Course - https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/bec 

#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach

Episode Transcript

Jeff (00:00):
Well, hey, everyone, welcome to your Enneagram coach,
the podcast.
I am Jeff McCord, uh, the CEOand co founder of your Enneagram
coach.
And joining me for thisconversations day is my friend
and fellow, uh, team member, ourdirector of coaching.
Adam Breckenridge.
We're going to get to him in amoment.

(00:20):
But, uh, and for those of youwho are turning, tuning in, it's
our mission here at YourEnneagram Coach to help you see
yourself with astonishingclarity, to help you break free
from self condemnation, fear,and shame by knowing and
experiencing the unconditionallove, forgiveness, and freedom
in Christ.
Now, If you love this contentand then turn on automatic

(00:41):
downloads or like and subscribeon you on our YouTube channel
and also share this with someonethat you think would enjoy or
benefit from this comment, uh,content.
Now if you would, uh, we arebrainstorming future content
Constantly.
And so, uh, if you would, ifyou're interested in future
topics that are maybe related towhat we're going to be talking

(01:02):
about today, be sure to leavethem in the comments.
Adam and I were spending sometime in answering comments this
last week from previousepisodes.
So you can leave a comment oryou can email us at info at your
enneagram coach.
com.
And we'd be happy to get back toyou and consider it for a future
episode.
The last and probably the mostimportant thing you've heard us
mention it before, but just as areminder, Beth is on sabbatical.

(01:27):
She has not abandoned you all,uh, and particularly not
abandoned you to Adam and Jeff.
Um, that is, uh, that would not,well, actually she has kind of,
um, but that's not necessarilyher fault.
Uh, but Adam and I are here totake care of you while Beth is
taking a break.
Yikes.
That woman, she published a booklast year, took care of me and

(01:51):
my heart crisis and moved herparents to Nashville.
So, uh, and then.
So, uh, she needed a break and,uh, she is doing fantastic.
So we are grateful, uh, just foryour initial welcoming of Adam
and I leading the podcast.
And so we're, um, hopefullygoing to be able to lead you
well, uh, as she takes a littlebreak.

(02:11):
So Adam, so glad you're here,friend.

Adam (02:14):
I'm so glad to be here.
You know that, that reminds meof that Parker Palmer quote
where he said, uh, something tothe effect of self-care is never
a selfish act.
It is simply good stewardship ofthe one gift I have to offer.
Uh, so I'm so glad that Beth hastaken some time to take care of
herself.
Um, and just, yeah, praying forher during this season.

(02:38):
So, and I'm glad that, you know,we get to do this together.
So Jeff, I'm glad you're here.
And to those of you tuning in,we're glad you're here.
Um, on this episode of the

Jeff (02:46):
she's doing well yesterday.
She spent the, almost the entireday hanging out with a friend
and, um, and then doing some.
recovery work, uh, reading inthis wonderful place we call the
factory in Franklin.
And, um, I got to go and grabcoffee and hang out with her and
do some work with her.
So it was, she's, she's asabbaticaling.

(03:07):
Well, is that a word?

Adam (03:09):
It, it Is

Todd (03:10):
Is now,

Adam (03:10):
is

Todd (03:10):
yeah.

Adam (03:11):
Yeah, it's, it is now it's, it's going to be in the,
by this afternoon, it will be inthe urban dictionary.

Jeff (03:18):
Awesome.

Adam (03:19):
and so, Hey, we're so glad you all are tuning in and, uh,
we have a, we have an amazingguest and I'm so excited to
introduce him, uh, on thisepisode of the podcast, we're
going to be talking about theEnneagram and attachment theory.
And our guest and conversationpartner for this episode episode
is Dr.
Todd Hall.
Dr.
Hall is a professor ofpsychology at Biola university's

(03:42):
Rosemead school of psychology.
And he serves as a facultyaffiliate in the Harvard human
flourishing program.
He has authored and contributedto several books and his latest
book is the connected life, theart and science of relational
spirituality.
And he brings with him over 30years of experience helping
leaders, coaches, andentrepreneurs achieve deep

(04:04):
relational and spiritual growth.
So Dr.
Hall, welcome to the podcast andthanks for being here.

Todd (04:11):
Thank you, Adam and Jeff.
It's great to be here with you.
I've been really looking forwardto this conversation.

Adam (04:17):
now you gave, you

Jeff (04:18):
Uh, now we, we agreed.
Early on like what to call you.
So we're gonna call you Todd

Todd (04:22):
Yes.

Jeff (04:23):
Hall

Adam (04:24):
That's exactly

Jeff (04:25):
So we're not trying to be disrespectful, but that that was
pretty impressive what you readthere, Adam Like I, Todd is a
very gentle, kind, hospitableman, but you carry a resume that
is significant, Todd.
I mean, what was it that got youinto psychology from the
beginning?

Todd (04:46):
Yeah, that's an interesting story and kind of
connected to the writing of TheConnected Life, no pun intended
there.
But, um, yeah, it really didgrow out of my own story of
disconnection and, uh, growingup with a mom who struggled with
a lot of mental health issues.
Parents split up when I wasyoung, so that led to a lot of
disconnection.

(05:08):
But I became a Christian when Iwas quite young through friends.
I did not grow up in a Christianfamily.
Um, and actually was blessed tohave a pastor who encouraged me
to go into psychology or tocheck it out.
I originally started off wantingto be a pastor and kind of going
down that road for a road for alittle bit.
And then, uh, My pastorencouraged me to think about

(05:28):
psychology.
I started checking it out andreally just kind of fell in love
with it and um, started to seethat it seemed like there were
some, some really great toolsthere for my own growth, but
also for, for ministry.

Jeff (05:39):
and that would have been a big deal cuz Christianity and
psychology have not always had agood relationship

Todd (05:45):
That is correct.
Yeah, it's been a,

Jeff (05:48):
To have a pastor say, Hey, go that route.

Todd (05:51):
Yes.
Yes.
And I feel very blessed by thatbecause even today, you know,
it's gotten a little better, Iwould say.
So I've been involved in thisconversation and teach in this
area of, you know, what we callthe integration of psychology
and theology.
And, you know, we've definitelymade progress of how do we bring
these two fields together and,and think well about this.
And so I think we have madeprogress.

(06:12):
Progress, but there are, I wouldsay, also pockets of folks in
the church who have kind ofbecome more entrenched in a
stance that, you know,psychology is bad, sort you
know, psychology.
So I still have students comewho have, you know, pretty
painful experiences in thechurch with church leaders.
Uh, in that realm.
So I, I do feel very blessedthat, that this pastor was in my

(06:35):
life and, and really encouragedme to, to go that route.
So I never really had to dealwith that at a personal level.
Yeah.

Jeff (06:42):
Well, Adam is well experienced in, uh, bringing,
uh, principles of psychologyinto pastoral ministry.
And Adam, you did some researchand put some thoughts together
on.
This topic that we're going tobe addressing today, the
disconnected life andloneliness.
Why don't you share about someof the things that you learned?

Adam (07:03):
yeah, yeah, yeah, well, it was I love your book, The
Connected Life, uh, uh, ToddThank you.
And, and, you know, it's reallygetting at our relational design
and the life of connection thatwe're made for.
It's addressing a major painpoint in the human experience,
which is the, the opposite of alife of connection is a life of
disconnection and a life ofloneliness.

(07:25):
And, you know, we know that thatsociologists all across the West
are calling loneliness anepidemic.
Now, um, I'm sure you'refamiliar from 2017 called the
commission on loneliness thatsaid that of those who
participated in the survey, morethan 9 million people marked
that they.
Often or always feel lonely.

(07:46):
And they went on in that report.
It was crazy.
They talked about the effectthis has on our souls and in our
bodies.
Um, there was a line in therethat said that loneliness kills.
It's, it's proven to be worsefor health and smoking 15
cigarettes a day.

Todd (08:02):
Yes.

Adam (08:04):
Loneliness leads to greater risk of cardiovascular
disease, dementia, depression,anxiety.
And then they threw in this, uh,this kind of scary line of young
or old loneliness doesn'tdiscriminate.
Um, and, uh, It's crazy.
And then I, I saw, you know, inrecent years, of course,
Britain, you know, created a newgovernment position called the

(08:25):
Minister of Loneliness, uh,whose, whose job is just to
establish policies that address,you know, the long term impact
that loneliness has onindividuals and society.
And there was a line in yourbook that where all of this sort
of comes together.
Um, and you say, you say inthere in a time when nearly half
of Americans are reportingloneliness and disconnection,

(08:47):
uh, as an epidemic, we needhealthy attachment bonds.
Uh, perhaps now more than ever.
So I think a great place tostart would be maybe to have, if
you will, tell us a little moreabout your heart for this need.
Um, and, and, and how this bookis addressing that need.

Todd (09:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you, Adam.
And definitely loneliness is ahuge issue.
And yeah, my, my heart for thisneed and the book really does
grow out of my story.
As I mentioned a moment ago ofgrowing up with quite a bit of
disconnection and then, um, youknow, finding the resources
spiritually and socially andrelationally to work through,
you know, those, those thingsand learn how to connect, you

(09:25):
know, in a more secure way anddevelop secure attachment with,
with God and other people.
And.
So, you know, I think Iexperienced that myself first in
my own life in, in college andthen in graduate school.
Um, you know, at Rosemead, we,the, so I now teach at Rosemead,
as you mentioned, and we're oneof the few programs in the

(09:46):
country that actually requiresour students to, to go through
their own therapy process.
And our, so our deep belief inmine is, you know, if you're
gonna help people as, as atherapist or, you know, and that
applies to coaching or any kindof helping role, you need to be
on your own journey of growthand.
Developing self awareness.
And, um, so we take thatseriously.
I sometimes say to my students,you know, you, you are the tool.

(10:09):
That's what I experienced in myown therapy and growth process.
And then working with clientsfor 30 years now.
Um, and that's what the researchbears out.
You know, when you look at theoutcome research on, um,
therapy, it's the relationshipthat, that really heals.
So experiencing that myself, Um,in my own growth process, um,
really awakened me to theimportance of this, um, growth

(10:33):
process and the importance ofrelationships, not only in just
general life, but in spirituallife as well.
And I started to see how, um,our, you know, early
relationships impact ourexperience of God.
And I experienced that again inmy own life.
And then working with clients,which is really what got me into
the research interest.
Interestingly, I worked, youknow, mainly with Christian
clients early on.

(10:54):
In my career, and I saw thatpretty much to a person, people
who clients I saw who struggledwith, you know, a background of
trauma or abuse ordisconnection, you know,
whatever it was, I saw that playout in their relationship with
God in terms of their, you know,their deep experience, right?
Even if they were committed,knew a lot about God in their

(11:15):
head, different way of knowing,we'll talk about that.
Um, but there was almost alwaysthis parallel experience in
their relationship with God.
So that got me into looking atattachment.
Uh, theory, which I was exposedto in graduate school and then
looking at attachment to God.
How does this play out in ourrelationship with God?
And so I ended up doing researchin that area and just seeing

(11:36):
that I think this is crucial forspiritual growth and formation
and the church and especiallyChristian leaders really, really
need to understand this.
And especially, so back to your,back to your question, Adam,
just this moment we're living inwith all this loneliness, it's
especially relevant right nowbecause it Murthy, as you
mentioned, has been.
The US in general.

(11:57):
Yeah, he's, he's been talkingfor a while.
He has a fairly recent bookcalled together.

Adam (12:02):
I read it.
Yeah.

Todd (12:04):
Great book talking about this.
Um, uh, you mentioned the, youknow, study on, um, you know,
mortality that loneliness is,you know, impacts has a negative
impact on mortality rates.
And so that comes from a bigmeta analysis, um, study, um, by
a researcher named JulianneHoltstad Lund.
And, interestingly, I just heardher speak at the American

(12:25):
Psychological Association.
It was a, you know, what theycall a main stage event.
focused on loneliness.
So that's an indication of howmuch of a crisis this is.
How big of a topic that at theAmerican Psychological
Association, they had a keynote,you know, talk on loneliness.
So, yeah, it's, and it's been,we're hearing more about it now,

(12:46):
but it's been growing really forthe last 50 years.
Um, so, you know, in the last 50years we've seen a, uh, increase
in loneliness and socialisolation and decline in
community involvement.
And participation.
And a lot of that work, um, was,was done by Robert Putnam and
his book, Bowling Alone, ifyou're familiar with that.
And he's done some work sincethen.

(13:06):
So he really documented a lot ofthat.
So it's been going on for awhile.
And then we have, you know, youlayer on top of that, the
pandemic and the impact oftechnology

Adam (13:19):
Digital age.
Oh, yeah.

Todd (13:20):
They'll do a page right on on kids and so Jonathan Hyde, if
you're familiar with him as apsychologist doing some great
work in this area, he's got arecent book that just came out
called The Anxious Generationand so he, um, he argues
basically the kind of the bigthesis of the book is that the
shift from what he calls a playbased childhood to a phone based

(13:43):
childhood is a major reason whychildren born after 1995 became
what he calls the anxiousgeneration.
And, and, um, he, he says thatthe smartphones acted like
experience blockers, um, thatmade it difficult for children
and adolescents to get theembodied social experiences they
need.
So, you know, you layer that ontop and we've got this breakdown

(14:06):
of community and family.
We've got tech, the rise oftechnology that's really, you
know, really impacting Our youngadults.
Um, and there's, it's just arecipe for disaster.
The perfect storm, right?
Where we just have so muchloneliness and disconnection and
it all, it plays out in ourspiritual lives because if we
understand spirituality to beabout relationship, right?

(14:28):
Relationship with God,relationship with each other in
the body of Christ, where we aresupposed to shine God's light to
the world, right?
And display God's love to theworld.
It, you know, then it has toimpact, our spiritual lives.

Jeff (14:43):
know, it's interesting, Todd, here, you're talking
about, um, the AnxiousGeneration book.
You know, I, my childhood, um,In one sense, my parents stayed
together.
I was adopted.
Uh, so I never looked like myparents and it was, I was, it
was made known to me very earlyon.
So there was a certaindisconnect there that I'm not

(15:04):
like them.
And they had their own story,but it, you know, they, They
never divorced, but there wereother things involved.
And then I think about, uh, mychildhood.
I mean, we were like a littlegang in our neighborhood.
We were either playing soccer atthe tennis court, uh, woofel
ball in the driveway, footballin the street, or riding our

(15:26):
bikes around the neighborhoodand just going house to house
getting water.
Cause we were in Texas gettingwater and food from just.
Foraging around theneighborhood.
And it's interesting though,that, I wonder, you know, being
Gen X.
If loneliness just shows up alittle bit differently because I
don't think that, you know, theyounger generations now kind of

(15:48):
get the market on loneliness,but there's certainly always
been loneliness in some ways aswe have experienced.
I mean, it seemed like that wasan immediate implication of the
fall for Adam and Eve isseparation from God, separation
from one another in this senseof loneliness in the world.
Maybe some kind of disconnectionfrom creation itself where

(16:12):
things weren't going to functionas well as in.
So now how do I live out mysense of purpose and calling?
Um, Yeah, I mean it was justinteresting to hear you say that
because I'm like, I don't knowif gen x would be considered a
connected generation

Todd (16:27):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, certainly there isloneliness across the
generations, and it has been,you know, growing in recent
times, but the research doessuggest that Gen Z, the young
adults, the rate of growth issteeper.

Jeff (16:42):
Interesting.

Todd (16:43):
Yeah, more,

Jeff (16:44):
There's a lot of them too.

Todd (16:45):
and anxiety and depression, but loneliness
definitely.
Along with that's part of whatheight documents in his book.
I mean, if you look through, heshows a number of charts of
different ways of, you know,kind of that the research looks
at anxiety, depression,loneliness, things like this.
And you can you know, what hehighlights in these charts is,

(17:06):
is from 2010 to 2015.
You just see a steep, a steepincline in depression, anxiety,
loneliness, and particularlyanxiety, depression also.
But so it does seem steeper forthem.
But, but I think, yes,loneliness is increasing for
across the generations, andprobably looks different, as
you've mentioned, Jeff.

Jeff (17:26):
Well, one of the things I mean, this is an enneagram con
our uh podcast So we're going tobe talking about the enneagram a
little bit But one of the thingsthat I I thought would be a
curious little not tangent.
It's really related to this butuh to make it more specific to
enneagram types is Um The idea,how does loneliness or
disconnection, how and why doesit show up for each Enneagram

(17:49):
type?
And I thought it'd be kind offun just for the next couple of
minutes to just walk the wheelone through nine on what your
thoughts may be for each typeand how, how and why they might
experience loneliness.
Um, And and i'll just i'll leadus off for each type and then
you guys can jump in and addyour additional thoughts and

(18:09):
Even from the thought of yourown enneagram type, but um, yeah
Type ones I think about numberone Ones have a tremendous sense
of responsibility And oftentimesthey speak in terms of being the
only one in their families whoare the responsible ones and
it's very isolating for them uhbecause they're They're always

(18:30):
having to do things for the sakeof other people.
And there's this innateinclination to take things over
and to do it right or be theresponsible one.
I think number two, their, uh,their own inner critic and self
criticism, it's like ricochetsright back at them.
And, um, they don't want toengage with others because of

(18:51):
the negative false beliefs thatthey may have about themselves.
And then I, I think one of thethings is they become so
principled.
Uh, and hold those principles sowell, it almost isolates them
from other people because peopledon't, may not agree with them
or share the same beliefs.
And so it has this ice, eventhough they may have a
principled view that's for thegood of, of people, it may

(19:15):
actually isolate them wheneversomeone may not agree with it.
But, uh, any other thoughtsabout a type one and how
loneliness would show up?

Todd (19:25):
Yeah, no, that's, I think that's great, Jeff.
And, um, yeah, I don't considermyself an expert on the
Enneagram, so I have to rely onyou.
But just thinking about thesedifferent types, I think in
general, I would say, as youwere just alluding to all the
types have a shadow side, right?
Right.
And.
And a way that we get trapped insome way, right?
Like a negative cycle.

(19:45):
And so I'm most familiar withthat for my type, which is four.
But, um, yeah, if there, butwith the one, if there's taking
responsibility and feeling likethey need to, there's probably
ways that that can lead to anegative cycle of disconnecting
them from people in terms of howthey're coming across to people,
right.
Where it's not.

(20:06):
They don't intend to do that.
And that's the case for most ofthese cycles.
Right.
But when they take things over,take responsibility and
sometimes maybe come across asI'm the only one in the room who
knows how to do this, right.

Adam (20:18):
That's right.

Todd (20:19):
That, yeah, that can alienate people and probably
lead to some, some loneliness,even though in all these cases,
it's a self protectivemechanism, right?

Adam (20:26):
Mm-Hmm?
Mm-Hmm.
Mm-Hmm.
That's,

Jeff (20:29):
about it that, uh, one being disconnected from God and
parents because they, in someways, uh, many ones will believe
like, I'm going to do a betterjob of parenting myself than you
are.

Todd (20:41):
Mm

Jeff (20:41):
And uh, the idea of yielding of submission in the
Bible to God, I would imaginethere's a projection of who God
is and uh, whether or not he'sgoing to really help them to the
same.
with the same level of energyand aggressiveness that they
would want to change themselves.

Todd (20:59):
Mm

Adam (20:59):
mm-Hmm.
Mm-Hmm.
Yep.
That's great.
No, I, I, I just to, just totriple piggyback.
Um, I think you, when you somesomething you said Todd
triggered the thought of, youknow, they may be, they may
become, ones, may become theonly person in the room that
feels like I.
I'm the only one that knows theright way.
There's just an innateloneliness sometimes when if

(21:21):
you, if you fall into believingyou're the only one holding up
the high standards or you arethe standard of moral integrity.
And so sometimes ones might feelisolated in their quest for
perfection.
Um, and they may, they may feelthat others don't share their
sense of responsibility or theirdesire for improvement.
You know, why doesn't everyoneelse care about this as much as

(21:42):
I do?
There can, they can often feelmisunderstood.
And lonely with lonely withtheir people

Todd (21:50):
Mm hmm.
Right, right.

Jeff (21:53):
well twos, uh, a few things that come to mind,
they've written some notes downhere.
Um, unreciprocated care.
I, I have been taking care ofeverybody else, but no one's
taking care of me, which is apart of the self sabotaging
cycle that they get into becauseit, they're resistant to being

(22:14):
cared for.
It's almost like, um, and Jesuswords to Peter, like, and you
know, unless I wash your feet.
Um, there's this.
Since to where that twos willfeel lonely because no, they
don't feel like anyone'saddressing their needs.
Uh, number two, over identifyingwith other people's needs, uh,
to their own neglect.

(22:34):
So they're just not aware oftheir own needs, nor do they
feel comfortable because thefear of rejection is if I
express my need, you know,that's one of the rules of a
dysfunctional family is thatdon't have needs.
And so if you fear that you'regoing to be rejected whenever
you voice your needs.
Um, then you have this veryisolating, uh, dynamic in your

(22:57):
relationships and particularly,you know, in, uh, in a spiritual
setting, you would imagine like,if, uh, you know, if you're
operating under the mindset thatyou're supposed to be
continually pouring your lifeout as a fragrant offering, or,
um, I beat my body and make itmy slave so that after I've
served others, this idea of, uh,The strong language in the Bible

(23:19):
about service, where myspirituality is expressed
through service can be verylonely because I've, we forget
these first principles that welove, we serve, we feel
compassion because we first feltcompassion.
Uh, thoughts on, any otherthoughts on twos?

Todd (23:37):
Yeah, no, that's great, Jeff.
I definitely think the, um,being, yeah, maybe less aware
or, or sort of pushing downtheir, their own needs is, is a
way of coping and, and that canleave them feeling isolated.
And also the first thing yousaid about just take taking care
of others constantly and notfeeling taken care of is
exhausting.
And I, I, yeah.

(23:58):
And if I think it's, that'sgreat.
Fairly common for peopleidentify as a two to have that
kind of experience.
And it's, yeah, it's very, verypainful.
And, you know, and I think, youknow, we should say here too,
and I'm sure you talk a lotabout this, but just that
there's, you know, there's abeauty and a strength to the,

(24:18):
all these personality types andto the, to the energy and the
way that they relate.
But there's also, as wementioned this.
Shadow side so that, uh, yeah,we're not, we're not trying to
beat up on, on these differenttypes.
We all have these, but there areways that all of us, because of
the fall, get into theseself-sabotaging, as you put it.
Um, yeah.
Self-defeating kinds of patternsand, and for twos it is often,

(24:39):
um, yeah.
Help helping others.
Right.
And the whole idea of the pridefor the twos right, is I, I
don't have needs.
Right?
Like everyone else has needs.
I'll be there for you, but I'msort of above that.
Of course, this is not aconscious thought process, but
that that can lead to someisolation and loneliness.
Yeah.
When have that experience andsort of inhabit that way of

(25:01):
being and relating to otherpeople, then they're not going
to reach out because they don'tsee your needs.

Adam (25:09):
Yeah.

Jeff (25:09):
Well, Adam, why don't you take, uh, types three and four
and, uh, tell us what yourthoughts are on why threes and
fours would experienceloneliness.

Adam (25:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
So a type three can, canexperience loneliness.
so it can kind of show up in aperformance pressure.
Um, there, there, there can bea, a, even a disconnection from
their, from themselves, youknow, to threes can become a
chameleon where they're sort of,you know, they can get into a
shape shifting and imagemanagement with, with people and

(25:40):
really, uh, become lonely withand for themselves even, um, uh,
not just lonely with others, butlike lonely for their true self.
You know, sometimes, you know,there can be this exhaustion of
I'm ready to stop the charadeand like, Show up and be me.
Of course, the fear is, willanyone love me for just being

(26:00):
me?
You know, if I take off theperformer hat or the, the, the
successful, the achiever hat,well, will anyone love me?
Just for me being who I am, notbased on what I do?
Um, but I think that's, that'sthe innate loneliness for the
three is feeling that theirsuccesses are, you know, they're
valued only upon the basis oftheir performance or their

(26:21):
achievement as opposed to yeah.
So what, what, what, what elsewould you guys add to that?

Todd (26:29):
well, that's great, Adam.
And yeah, I would just say,yeah, I think in terms of that,
how that plays out inrelationships, right?
When there's this constant needto perform when the person who
identifies as three is operatingmore in the kind of shadow side,
maybe distressed, um, that againcan lead to disconnection and,
you know, not Not feelingconnected.
They may not be aware of thatuntil there's some sort of

(26:51):
breakdown.
Right.
So maybe it's, you know, uh,lack of success that they're
driving for causes some of thecoping mechanisms to break down.
And then some of these feelingslike come to the surface, but
when they're just operating inthat and it's, you know, I'm
only relating to you in aninstrumental way, right?
Because I, I need to check someboxes off and get things done.

(27:13):
Well, you know, the person onthe other end of that
relationship has a certainexperience of, I don't feel very
connected to you.
I don't feel.
Seen or known or like you'reinterested and so I'm not, you
know, I'm probably not going toreciprocate.
And so again, it's another way.
It just leads to the breakdownof connection.

Jeff (27:28):
I remember, uh, a passage in, uh, one of Brennan Manning's
books, uh, he was speaking toJesus's words in Matthew, uh, in
that day, they will say, uh, wedid all these things in your
name and Jesus responds with,but I never knew Like it.
Yeah.
There's a sense to whereseparating performance from our

(27:49):
sense of identity and beingvulnerable and known.
And even as we're talkingthrough these, you know, we're
going to get into the idea ofattachment styles.
You can start to see, uh, howthose ways of relating around
need and being known.
Uh, and being received andcherished and responded to, uh,
are essential to how we show upin our relationships.

(28:12):
And oftentimes, whenever thoseinitial needs are not met,
really some of the unhealthysides of these types, that's
where, uh, why they're showingup in unhealthy ways.
These are mechanisms to try andto secure those essential needs
that we missed at the beginning.

Todd (28:27):
Right, right, yeah, yeah, and I also, I often talk about
those Jeff is kind of a pseudoconnections, right?

Jeff (28:35):
Yeah.
Oh yeah,

Todd (28:36):
they're, you know, they're, it's very
understandable, and it's a wayto protect ourselves.
Right.
Right.
But it is counterproductive forrelationships, healthy
relationships and for our owngrowth.
And so it leads to this kind ofpseudo connection because it's
layered with this, uh, attemptto protect ourselves from pain,
which what that does is it cutsus off from parts of ourselves.

(28:58):
And that's why it has a negativeimpact on relationships.

Adam (29:02):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
All those coping mechanisms weresimulated connections.
They always end up ascounterproductive.
They actually cause the pain.
We're trying to avoid.
Let's talk about type fours, youknow, type fours.
Um, and this is, uh, Todd, we'lllet you speak to this because I
believe

Todd (29:21):
I'm a four.

Adam (29:21):
as a type four.
Yeah.
Um, but, uh, let's just, let'sjust toss this one to you.
How would you say for the fourthat loneliness is experienced
or how, how does it show up?

Todd (29:33):
Yeah, when I was reflecting on this, just
thinking about this call and oneof the way, one of the things I
experienced quite a bit that Ithink is common for fours is
this feeling that I'm missingsomething and that, you know,
being in my own lane.
And operating out of my owngifts and that sort of thing is

(29:53):
not enough.
And so I think that, that can,you know, I noticed when that
shadow side comes up and startsoperating, that can definitely
lead to some loneliness and, youknow, and it's, you know, it's a
filter.
So I talk about attachment asfilters, you know, Enneagram,
these are all personality.
These are filters of, um, in thesense that they filter or shape
how we experience relationshipsand events in our lives.

(30:14):
Right.
And so it kind of.
Can sometimes filter myexperience to feel disconnected
and lonely because of thisfeeling like I'm not, I'm not
doing enough.
People might not see me in acertain way and I'm, I'm missing
something.
Right.
And so that's probably the, thenthe need to be unique, which is
common for fours, right.
To, to kind of gain that lovefrom others because I'm

Jeff (30:40):
Todd, do you ever have the experience or the inclination to
want to isolate from others?
Almost like a self fulfillingprophecy.

Todd (30:50):
Yeah, I do think that that comes up at times.
Um, it's, I think it's more ofa, you know, kind of a reaction
or coping mechanism, you know,if there's a sense of, you know,
people, people aren't seeing me,then I'll withdraw sometimes.
And then that can become anegative, you know, self
fulfilling prophecy.
Yeah.

Jeff (31:11):
Um, well, I'll take five and six, and then, uh, Adam, you
can finish us off with seventhrough eight.
So, fives, uh, you know, they'rejust as a relational style and
engaging with the world, uh,their initial inclination is
towards detachment, uh, butparticularly intellectual
detachment, which means thatit's, um, detachment not only

(31:32):
from relationships, but evendetachment from emotion.
Uh, in order not to beoverwhelmed by the world and
fear of being relationally orpersonally depleted by the
world.
And so similar to maybe thefours and isolate now, each
enneagram type can isolate fordifferent reasons.
That's just kind of a humancoping mechanism is isolation.

(31:54):
But, um, it.
You know, fives have aninclination to find themselves
lonely, um, and particularlybecause they, uh, there's
underlying assumption thatthey're, they don't want to be a
problem.
They don't want their needs tobe a problem to other Do you
guys have any other thoughtsabout fives?

Todd (32:14):
Yeah.
I think, um, that's all.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense,Jeff.
It's, uh, it's this Yeah.
Inclination to operate in theirhead in order to Yeah.
Conserve energy, like you said.
And, you know, and there'sdifferent subtypes as we know of
the Enneagram.
Sometimes it's a fear of.

(32:35):
social incompetence, right?
So as well as being drained,right?
If I, if I show up and connect,um, that's going to be
incredibly costly for me energywise.
And so I'm going to kind of hangback and stay in my head and, or
also, or maybe a combination,right?
That if I really start to engagesocially, I'll be seen as

(32:59):
socially incompetent.
I'm not quite sure how toengage, how to start the
conversation, how to carry theconversation, you know, that
kind of thing.
Um, but I can, you know, at theintellectual level, I feel very
comfortable and I can, I canmanage that.
And so that can lead todefinitely, yeah, feelings of
loneliness just internally, likeyou said, Jeff, and, and also

(33:19):
relationally, because, um,there's, there's a barrier there
with other people.

Jeff (33:26):
Well Adam, why don't you tell us about your loneliness as
a type 6.
I'll put you on the spot.

Adam (33:31):
Yeah.

Jeff (33:31):
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Adam (33:35):
What, what loneliness?

Jeff (33:37):
What?
Lonely?
I've surrounded myself withbooks and people, so to overcome
all of my loneliness.

Adam (33:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's a difference betweendifference between solitude and
isolation, uh, or, or, orsurrounding yourself with, uh,
with, you know, um, resourcesthat you think are going to help
you cope with your anxiety, butactually only further isolate
you.
So that's, yeah, I think, Ithink I often feel isolated.

(34:06):
I mean, anxiety is, which is thecore weakness of a six.
Anxiety is fundamentallyisolating.
Um, and I think in, in anxietyand in fear, especially if, I
believe that others don'tunderstand, Or share my concerns
or share my fears.
Or if I feel shamed ormisunderstood around my fears or

(34:26):
anxieties, you know, if I getthis response of like, Hey, it's
really not that big a deal.
Or, Hey, get over it.
Or, Hey, why aren't you, Hey,Hey, why don't you just trust
God more?
You know, it's like, Oh, you,you don't think I thought of
that?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I'll just have more faith.
All right.
You know, that's, that's myproblem.
My problem must be, you know,intellectual that I just don't
believe God is who he is, youknow?
It's like.

(34:48):
I think that's a real isolating,lonely experience for sixes.
And then, you know, as we'vementioned, one of the coping
mechanisms then can be this,this sort of, um, exaggerated
effort of seeking reassurance.
And I can turn to books,resources, um, mentors, experts.

(35:08):
Uh, you know, you name it,podcasts, whatever, to try to
get some reassurance.
And it, it actually only, it canreally further exaggerate the
loneliness.
And so that's a little bit ofwhat it, what it's like to be a
six.
Um,

Jeff (35:20):
You know Adam, a couple things came to mind earlier
that, uh, I'd love to hear yourthoughts on, and Todd's as well.
Um, When I think of Isaiah 41,fear not for I am with you, and
all of those commands related todo not fear, do not be anxious
about anything, I find itparticularly lonely.

(35:42):
As if somehow like my Thecondition by which I show up to
God is somehow a disappointmentto him And like I I don't feel
him to be near When i'm feelingit and now i've got this guilt
And this also guilt that i'vedone something wrong, but also

(36:03):
the shame like I don't know Howto fix my anxiety because it's
just so pervasive to how Iengage with life um I mean, I,
it's so funny.
So I, I walk in the mornings andI walk several miles in the
morning, but, um, I was a placecooker in college.
And so I twisted my ankles alot.
Uh, when I would land on thetee, the kickoff And so I'm, I

(36:25):
am always afraid of twisting myankle and just being on the, in
front of someone's home callingback, like, Hey, can you come
pick me up?
I twist my ankle while walking.
Um, like I, it's just sopervasive and it's everywhere.
And I'm like, Whoa.
My anxiety is what brought mehere, but then I'm told that my
anxiety is wrong That I shouldrecognize that God's with me But

(36:50):
the last thing that my bodyrealizes or think expresses is
that God's with me But not aTodd.
How do you how do you interpretan experience like that
spiritually?

Todd (37:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think anxiety, you know, as you were
saying, Adam is just inherentlylonely and again, it's a filter,
right?
For just how you, how youexperience God.
And what I mean by filter toois, you know, one way I describe
it sometimes is, you know, wedon't see the filter we see
through the filter.
Right.
So that's just the reality thatyou experience based on past

(37:24):
experiences you've had at a gutimplicit level that have been
internalized.
And so it is your reality.
And that, that's why when peoplesay, like you were saying, Adam,
like, Oh, just, you know, youneed to trust God more or
whatever.
That doesn't feel good.
Right.
Because.
It's not an issue necessarily offaith.
It's an issue of, you know, thisis an automatic kind of

(37:45):
experience based on pastrelationships.
And so when anxiety is there,because there's been experiences
of what, you know, abandonmentor whatever it is.
That's a very real experience.
And that's, you know, one way todescribe it is like, that's the
starting point for growth.
You have to be aware of whereyou are, you know, sort of the,
you are here on the map of yoursoul, right.
If you're going to, you know,move.

(38:06):
So I think that's a very, youknow, understandable, normal
experience, Jeff.
Um, you know, based, I don'tknow all the nuances of where
that comes from, but, um, Ioften tell people, you know, it
helps to understand thosedefinitely, but it's important
to take your experience.
at face value in a certainsense, you know, in the sense
that it is valid, it, there's agood emotional reason for why

(38:29):
you have those experiences.
Um, and then it's just a matterof understanding them and having
new contrast experiences thatthen shift our, our attachment
filters.
So, yeah.
So when you're having thatexperience with, with God and
spiritually, wait a minute, theway I'm showing up, it isn't
good enough because of what I'mreading in I think that's That's

(38:52):
the filter operating and that'snormal and understandable given
your experiences.
And then that's the startingpoint.
Okay, where did this come from?
How can I take a, take a step,you know, to process this and,
and move in a, in a more healthydirection to have a different
experience.
And that's, that's not a Jeffthing, right?

(39:14):
That's a, that's a human thing.
That's all of us need to dothat.

Jeff (39:19):
Um, well, let's jump to type seven.
Um, you know, one of the bigthoughts that I had about the
seven is the idea of avoidanceof suffering or being trapped in
pain.
And so there's a, there's arestlessness, a hunger, uh, to
move towards life and newexperience.

(39:40):
Uh, I can't remember what pastorit was that said it, but he, it
was a provocative comment thatI've always, uh, learned.
It's always.
Stuck with me is, um, we admireone another for our successes,
but we connect with one anotherin our suffering.

Todd (39:54):
Hmm.

Jeff (39:56):
And there there's so often in the life of Christ, that's
portrayed in the new Testamentabout participating in his
suffering, having fellowshipwith a suffering like that,
that's, that's, that's.
Where we connect with oneanother, but there's such a
strong inclination to beavoidant to those things for the
seven that it can feel verylonely.

(40:16):
Um, and you even see it for someof them where they, they move
from relationship torelationship.
Um, And looking for the newexperience, particularly if
things start to get difficult,um, and that, that restlessness
for life can be quite long,lonely, um, because they're,
they're wanting something thatmaybe this world doesn't have to

(40:38):
offer yet.
Um, even children, uh, theseven, Kids will talk about
growing up with parents who arealways having to tell them no,
and that can be very lonely.
Like they were ready toexperience life and do
everything and anything.
just talking to a seven recentlywho, um, wanted to keep working
while doing an overseas tripand, uh, came back like, I,

(41:01):
yeah, I, I often overestimate mycapacity.
That's so even like a feelingalone cause they're not overbook
themselves.
Do you guys have any otherthoughts about sevens?

Adam (41:14):
Yeah, I could jump in and just say that one of the things
that that comes to my mind withmy seven friends is, you know,
the only, the only place you canreally do relationship is in the
present.
can't do relationship in thepast because it's the past and
you can't do relationship in thefuture because it hasn't
happened yet.
And sevens can struggle to livein the present.

(41:36):
They're, they're, that keyquestion that they're, they can
get into asking is unconsciouslyis what's next.
You know, uh, what's the new,what's, what's exciting, what's
new, what, what experience can Igobble up?
Um, you know, and they're, theysort of can get into a pattern
of staying stimulated, staying,you know, entertainment seeking
or adventure seeking.

(41:57):
Um, and, uh, and of coursethere's a fun side to that.
There's a really fun side, butthat's a, that's a gift that
they bring.
And there's a shadow side tothat.
And, uh, but I think it pull,pulling themselves out of the
present is lonely.
There's a loneliness to that,um, to not being present.

Todd (42:17):
Yeah.

Adam (42:18):
were you going to say, Todd?

Todd (42:19):
That's a great insight, Adam.
Yeah.
I, I think what comes to mindfor me for sevens, um, again, so
operating in kind of the, theshadow side when that's coming
up is.
That there's a, you know,reluctance and fear to go
deeper, right.
Into pain, vulnerability, deeperemotions.
And that's, you know, you justsaid that Jeff, right.

(42:40):
That's how we connect in someways.
And so I think there's sometimesgoing to be an experience of,
um, you know, sort ofsuperficially bouncing around in
a lot of different relationshipsat.
You know, and not going deep.
And then when someone tries togo deep or something comes up,
boom, they're, they emotionallycheck out, they're out, they
move on to the next.
Thing.
And again, it's a protectivemechanism.

(43:01):
It's understandable.
Like all of us have these, butit's, it's counterproductive for
a deeper sense of connection.
Right.
So there's, you know, lots of.
Lots of connections at sevens,you know, I think experience,
um, on a different level interms of, you know, doing and,
and having lots of irons in thefire, so to speak.
Right.
But when it comes to like, whichreally is what you were just

(43:22):
saying, Adam, right.
It's like being present in themoment with this person in front
of me or people and, and beingable to go a little bit deeper,
I think is a struggle that canlead to a real sense of
loneliness.

Adam (43:36):
Should we talk about the Type 8?

Jeff (43:38):
That sounds great.
I bet they love for us to talkabout them.

Adam (43:42):
I bet they

Jeff (43:44):
loneliness.
They're just happy.

Adam (43:46):
That's right.

Jeff (43:47):
independent.

Adam (43:48):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
And, and their independence is,uh, again, again, uh, one of the
gifts that they bring, but thereis a loneliness to, uh, an over,
over identification withindependence.
You know, there is a lonelinessto the fear of vulnerability.
And we know, listen, all youEnneagram 8s, we know that

(44:09):
beneath the Tough exterior is atenderness, right?
And so, um, and when you'reunwilling to, and you shouldn't
just share that with everybody,that would be, you know,
irresponsible, uh, and could bedangerous to you, but when
you're unwilling to, um, bevulnerable with, you know, You
know, in a, in a, in a secureattachment with a safe person,

(44:32):
then, then it does create aloneliness.
Um, sometimes the, the bigenergy and, uh, directness and
bravado, especially if, youknow, eights are operating from
not a very good place andthey're kind of in that
bulldozer mode.
Um, there can be some conflicton there, whether it's in your
family, with your spouse, onyour team, uh, that conflict can

(44:55):
create some isolation and someloneliness for the type eight.
Um, but what, I'm curious what,what you guys would add to that.

Todd (45:05):
Well, just to piggyback on something you were saying, Adam,
the, the, the vulnerability and.
Connection beneath the surfaceis there.
It's rich.
You know, I think in some ways,it's or, you know, people who
identifies it very can be veryconnected and they often are
looking out for, um, people whocan't protect themselves, right?

Adam (45:26):
Mm-Hmm.

Todd (45:26):
And people are vulnerable, probably because it's, it's
mirroring some vulnerabilitywithin them that they, it taps
into that.
And they resonate with that.
And so they want to protectthat.
And that's beautiful.
But when it's below the surface,though, it's hard to see, right.
So I think, I think that canlead to a sense of disconnection
where other people, you know,don't, don't see that if
they're, if they lack awarenessof that and, and struggle to

(45:50):
reveal that to people in, insome relationships, not, not all
of them, obviously, like yousaid, Adam, then, yeah, that can
lead to again, superficial kindof.
Connections and relationshipsand a sense of loneliness.

Jeff (46:03):
I remember in, um, Oh, Sleeping at Last, uh, their song
on the eight.
Um, it's in the first stanzathat they remember the moment
that things switched.
and that they believed that theywere on their own.
That attachment wound, um,abandonment wound that trans,

(46:23):
gets translated and I, I'llnever live in a way to be
betrayed again.

Todd (46:29):
Mm hmm.

Jeff (46:29):
And that is profoundly lonely.

Todd (46:33):
Mm hmm.

Jeff (46:34):
Profoundly, that is a significant burden for a child
to bear, to be their onlyprotector, their only nurturer,
their only Um, and the more thatthey identify with that, the
more strategies and it's almostlike the stronger the
independence, it's the strongerthe fear that's driving the
independence.

(46:56):
Well, Adam, why don't you takeus into the world of the nine?

Adam (46:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Around type nine.
Um, so yeah.
Type nine's.
I think, you know, I'm marriedto a nine.
You know Jeff, you're married toa nine, I think type nines in my
experience, can

Jeff (47:10):
My nine has me, so she's never alone.

Adam (47:13):
That's right.
That's right.

Jeff (47:14):
I am so anxiously attached that, uh, she, I, she'll, she'll
always know I'm there.

Adam (47:22):
You're yeah.
That's awesome.
Yes.
Yeah.
I think, you know, ninesexperience loneliness when they
lose touch with their owndesires, when they sort of fall
asleep to themselves and theymerge too much with others,
there can be a loneliness forthemselves.
Even, you know, I, you see, yousee this experience a lot when,

(47:44):
you know, you know, for my

Todd (47:45):
exciting projects and, and fun things they're

Adam (47:48):
wife, who's a top nine when, when, when, when the kids.
Uh, we've got all the kids inschool and, you know, kids would
go off to school and she wouldfind herself in the house alone.
And she'd be like, Who am I?
What do I want to do?
What, what do, what do, what do,what do I love?
What am I good at?
What's my vocational identityand calling?

(48:09):
Like, what

Jeff (48:10):
So interesting, Adam, I, and talking about Beth's
sabbatical, um, I was remindedwhenever I took my sabbatical,
like, Hey, don't forget to havefun.
Like, sure.
There's some internal work to doand some professional and career
goals to kind of think through,but have fun and leisure.
And she was like, What, what I,I'm supposed to know what I want

Adam (48:31):
Yeah,

Jeff (48:31):
like, I, I do what you do for fun.

Adam (48:34):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and what, yeah, that'sexactly right.
And what, what Carrie realizedin that experience was how
lonely for herself that she was.
I mean, I'll never forget it.
A mentor of ours, Jeff, that youand I both know well, uh, Rich
Plast.
Rich told, um.
Carrie, he asked, asked her thequestion.
Cause she did some coaching withhim during this time period.

(48:55):
And he was like, what, what'ssomething you used to love?
Let's start there.
What, what, what's just a, justfor Carrie, just for fun.
What's something you used tolove?
And she thought, and she's theimage of her riding a bike with
the wind in her hair.
And he said, how, how old areyou riding this bike?
And she's like, I'm probablynine or 10 And he said, Hey, why
don't you go buy a bike?

(49:15):
And she did, she went and boughtlike a nice bike and would drop
the kids off at school on acrisp fall morning.
And then just go ride around ourneighborhood on her bike, you
know?
And it's like, guilt free justgo ride your bike.
She's like, I've missed this.
And then what, what she's reallysaying is I've missed me, I've
missed me.
And then, and then there's alsoof course, the loneliness with

(49:38):
others that can come from, fromthat as well.
So that's, I think, The ninescan be the nines

Todd (49:47):
Yeah.
I agree, Adam.
That's great.
You know, great insight andthat's been my experience
working with You Nines as wellas I would describe it as
disconnection from themselves,because oftentimes they don't,
don't know their ownpreferences.
You kind of alluded to that, um,because they get, you know, as
part of the Copa mechanism,right?
It's, um, go with the flow andthey're great at seeing other

(50:10):
people's perspectives, which isa huge strength.
And that can be very valuable inall kinds of contexts, including
leadership, but.
It sometimes can be a struggleto, like, find that foundation
of, like, what do I actuallywant?
Like you said, prefer, desire,and, and who am I?
And so that can lead to, yeah, adisconnection within the self of

(50:35):
feeling pulled in lots ofdifferent directions based on
other people's preferences.
And that can feel pretty lonely.

Adam (50:42):
And when you overlook yourself, you, you, when you
overlook yourself, you, you, youalso get overlooked or feel
overlooked by others because,and so then there's this
loneliness with other peopletoo, of why don't they see me,
you know, like does my presenceor does my voice

Todd (50:59):
Right.
Great

Jeff (51:01):
Well, Todd, uh, you know, to, to wrap this back to where
we began with this is that, uh,in your book, the Connected
Life, like you have a vision forwhat.
a connected life looks like withGod, with others, uh, with
ourselves and with creation.
Tell us, uh, what, what is yourvision of a connected life?

Todd (51:25):
Yeah, I mean, I think in a, you know, in kind of a
nutshell, connected life is alife in which we feel known and
accepted.
We've alluded to this, right?
By God and by important peoplein our lives, right?
And then we don't feel alone inour emotional pain, right?
Everybody, we all havestruggles.
We all have emotional pain.
We all have suffering, things wego through.

(51:48):
to flourishing spiritually andotherwise really is to not feel
alone in your emotional pain, tobe able to have people who feel
safe to process it with, and tobe able to grow through that
suffering and to, as I call itsometimes, suffer well, right?
Which is to, um, entrust yoursuffering to God.

(52:09):
and to grow through So thatinvolves, you know, this deep
internal emotional security,which comes from secure
attachment, comes from theserelationships that are really
important that we carry in oursoul that then gives us the
capacity to give and receivelove and to cope with life's
challenges.
So that would be kind of anutshell the connected life.

Jeff (52:32):
And, and one of the interesting kind of points of
need that you address, uh, inthe book, and which you've
actually done a little bit ofresearch on, is the idea of
attachment and attachment woundsthat end up shaping or
interfering with.
Impacting, um, this idea of aconnected life that it's, you

(52:54):
know, that attachment is morethan just having a good
relationship, but we carry thateven in our bodies and that
impacts how we connect withothers, our jobs and, uh, our,
uh, and how we connect with Godthrough our spirituality.

Todd (53:09):
Right.
Right.
So, yeah, these attachmentrelationships are so important
and there's a lot of, you know,research on this.
And I think we're seeing in thelast, you know, five years or
so, more books being writtenabout attachment that are coming
up to the sort of popular level.
It's, it's, I think more in the,in our consciousness now, but
the research really goes back tothe 1940s is when it was

(53:33):
originally started to bedeveloped by John Bowlby.
Who's.
The founder of attachmenttheory.
Um, and, but there's a lot ofresearch on it now.
And so we've already alluded tothat there's secure attachment,
which, um, involves basically asimple way to think about it as
comfort and challenge.
Those are the two kind of basiccharacteristics of attachment in

(53:56):
the, in the literature, it'scalled a safe Haven and a secure
base, right?
So safe Haven is the comfortsecure base is the ability to
kind of challenge yourself andmove through things and cope and
explore.
Um, and these, these attachmentpatterns are internalized and
usually in place by about 12months of age because it's all
through this implicit gut levelkind of, you know, memory.

(54:18):
So there's comfort andchallenge.
If that, if a person has enoughof those experiences with
caregivers and is able to relyon them for those things, then
they be, you know, they developthis internal secure attachment.
But it really is the people thatwe rely on for those two things
of, you know, comfort when we'redistressed or upset and an
internal sense of security toexplore the world.

(54:40):
That's how we become attached.
It's the people we rely on forthose two things.
But as we all know that, youknow, we don't always have Um,
that are healthy and secure.
And so when those aren't there,people develop insecure
attachment patterns.
And this, you know, in realityexists on a continuum.
We tend to talk about these ascategories, but it really exists

(55:01):
on a continuum.
But basically there's two kindof major insecure types of
attachment.
And there really is a third onealso, but anxious attachment is
one of the major ones.
And so that involves.
Um, really protecting oneselffrom expected abandonment by,
um, really engaging andsometimes becoming emotionally

(55:23):
clingy with other people.
So there's, uh, sort ofemotional dysregulation
oftentimes, and they becomeoverly reliant on other people
and have, you know, Troubleregulating their own emotions.
They tend to lack confidence.
Um, and they tend to have whatwe might call an embedded stance
toward their own experience,meaning when they get upset or

(55:43):
distressed, they get sort oflost in that experience.
It's difficult to take a stepoutside and process it and
realize, okay, This is painful.
I'm having this experience, butit's not going to last forever.
There, you know, there's somereasons why this person treated
me this way, you know,perspective taking and that sort
of thing, it becomes a struggle.
So that's anxious attachment onthe other side is dismissing

(56:05):
attachment or avoidantattachment.
It's both terms are used.
And that is when people.
shut down their attachmentsystem, become overly self
reliant in order to cope withoftentimes experiences of
rejection.
And so they tend to come acrossas emotionally guarded and
again, too, too self reliant.
Um, and, um, they're sort of apseudo confident.

(56:29):
So on the surface, they appearYou know, pretty confident, but
below the surface there, it'sdifficult for them to be
vulnerable and really, truly,you know, connect with others.
And so that breaks downsometimes when there's a lot of
stress and there's adisconnected stance towards
their experience.
So they're just not very awareof, you know, their emotions and
that kind of thing.
And then there's this other typefearful attachment.
It's sort of a combination ofanxious and, and, um, avoidance.

(56:52):
And that's when there is.
a desire to connect.
So for avoiding people on aconscious level, there's not
really that desire to seekpeople out when they're upset,
right?
It's like, Hey, I got this.
I'll manage this myself becauseI'm not going to get hurt again.
Right.
Um, whereas anxious attachment,they move toward people like,
Hey, I really need you, Jeff, tohelp me figure this out and cope

(57:14):
with this.
Fearful is I want thatconnection, but I'm afraid of
it.
because emotional connection hasled to pain, abandonment,
rejection, you know, it's beenassociated with pain.
And so there's a lot of back andforth and sometimes self
sabotaging, and it's, you know,sometimes we see a little, you
know, a little more associationwith trauma in the background,

(57:36):
that kind of thing.
So, you know, and then back toyour point, Jeff, about all of
this plays out in our spirituallife because it operates
automatically.
Subconsciously and again filtersour experience of God and so
that's kind of what got me intothis was my own journey and then
seeing this with clients wherethis plays out in their
relationship with God as well asin, you know, with other people
in spiritual community.

Jeff (57:57):
You know, I, I remember a moment, um, there was a, I think
it's Invitation to Silence andSolitude.
I can't remember her last name,uh, who wrote it, but, so I was
trying, uh, doing times ofsolitude and prayer and silence,
uh, and I remember being in theroom of the church and I feel

(58:20):
like I, I was praying and tryingto be as present as possible,
but feeling so alone.
Uh, and distant from God.

Todd (58:32):
Mm hmm.

Jeff (58:32):
At that same time, I was doing some training with
Allender and it was the firsttime that I was introduced to
attachment theory and started torealize how my own adoption and
first year of life going uh,foster care, uh, to my parents
could have had.
impact upon my life and how I'mexperiencing God in this moment.

(58:56):
And there was both fear, like,well, am I ever going to feel
close to God?
And also kindness, like, Oh,this is biological.
This is, I can't spiritualize myway out of this thing.
I can't just go try harder andthings are going to get better.

Todd (59:13):
Right.

Jeff (59:14):
and it makes sense why prayer was so difficult at times
where, uh, moving towards movingaway, not feeling connected, but
don't liking how I'm feelingdisconnected and so I want to
move away and then find myselflonely and moving back.
Um, was, um, It was so impactfulto have this as a way of
describing my experience a wayof compassion, but there is a

(59:39):
possibility of like fear, likeyou feel stuck in your
attachment style.
I mean, do, do you thinkattachment styles change over
time and that we experiencerelationship in different ways?
And is that what you're tryingto address in the connected
life?

Todd (59:53):
Yes.
Yeah, definitely.
They can change.
It does take takes time takesbasically new relational what I
called earlier contrastexperiences, right?
So in the, you know, you mayhave heard the term in the
psychological literature.
There's this term correctiveemotional experience.
It goes back to, you know, some,you know, some of the early
psychoanalytic

Jeff (01:00:13):
a technical psychological term, corrective emotional.
Yeah.

Todd (01:00:19):
contrast experience is a little more specific that has to
do with, you know, experiencesand relationships that, that
really, um, upend yourexpectation.
So if there's an expectationthat, okay, I'm, I'm going to be
abandoned in this relationshipagain, right?
Because that's, that's just howrelationships work, or I'm not
going to be seen in thisrelationship.
And then I have an experiencewith someone who I feel with.

(01:00:39):
Wow, this person really saw mein a deep way that violates in a
positive way, my gut levelexpectation and, and starts to
shift the internal landscape ofmy soul and my attachment
filters in a way.
So they definitely do change,but we need, we need these new

(01:01:00):
experiences.
They don't change directlythrough head knowledge or
explicit knowledge.
That That does, that is helpfulto, you know, sort of direct our
lives and figure out what kindsof experiences and conditions we
need to create and be in forgrowth.
But the direct shifts at a deeplevel happen through new loving

(01:01:22):
relational contrast experiences.

Adam (01:01:24):
I'm going to use a technical term that makes me
sound smarter than I am.

Todd (01:01:28):
Great.

Adam (01:01:29):
But since I have, since I have Dr.
Hall, or as I called you beforewe hit record, the Todd father.
this, uh, on this call, does,are you talking about
neuroplasticity?
Like that, like the ability ofour brains to actually forge new
pathways and, and healthierpathways through these
corrective experiences.

Todd (01:01:48):
Yes, that definitely, definitely ties in all, all
learning and developmentinvolves neuroplasticity, right?
So there's a, there are Braincircuits that are processing all
of our experiences, you know,including things that we, but,
but definitely learning andgrowth and change, all of those
require rewiring of our braincircuits.

(01:02:09):
And so neuroplasticity is thisterm that, that.
Speaks to the idea that our, ourbrains can actually change
throughout our lives.
And that's a new discovery inthe last, you know, 40, 50 years
or so that, you know, kind ofthe old view was, you know, once
you hit about 25 or so, youknow, brain, the brain circuits
are pretty set and you're kindof done learning and growing,

(01:02:29):
but you know, we've learnedthrough neuroscience in the
last, um.
Yeah.
40, 50 years that that's nottrue that we, we can develop new
brain circuits and grow andchange throughout life.
And so it really is, it reallyis possible.
And, and there's new researchon, um, memory reconsolidation
in the neuroscience area.
That's really fascinating.
That, that speaks to this ideaof these contrast experiences,

(01:02:51):
um, that those contrastexperiences seem to, um, unlock,
you know, the brain circuitsthat, that process, you know,
some of, some of these, Implicitpainful emotions and then allow
for them to be sort of rerewritten or rewired.
So there's, there's somefascinating work being done in

(01:03:13):
that area.

Jeff (01:03:15):
Todd, you, um, you're a part of or overseeing some
research regarding Enneagramtypes and attachment styles.
Can you just comment briefly onwhat you guys found?

Todd (01:03:26):
Sure.
Yeah.
So with my former student now,Dr.
McKenzie Connor.
So shout out to, to, uh,McKenzie.
So this was her master's indissertation.
We worked on, um, developing ameasure that of the Enneagram
using brief stories.
And so people write, write out abrief story, um, tapping kind of

(01:03:46):
five different, you know, sortof areas that the Enneagram sort
of taps, um, like a relationalconflict, for example, is one of
them.
Um, things of that nature.
And then they rate a series ofitems in terms of how relevant
it was in that story.
And so it ends up being aquantitative score.
Um, so it's kind of aninteresting, you know, method.

(01:04:07):
We wanted to just, you know, seeif this would work.
I'd use this method in anotherassessment that I worked on.
And then we were also interestedin how does the, how do the
Enneagrams type relate toattachment?
If we can sort of include thatand figure that out.
And so, you know, the resultsshowed we were able to develop
scales for each of these typeswith some pretty good statistics
in terms of.
showing that these items hangtogether pretty well.

(01:04:30):
Um, and then we correlated them,you know, that's part of how you
establish validity is youcorrelate a measure with other
similar measures that areindependent.
And, um, and we got some decentcorrelations.
There's still some more work todo though, but when we looked at
attachment, it is interesting.
Some of them came out, um, someof the, you know, predictions,
but not all of them.
Um, but I can give you kind ofa, you know, summary here.

(01:04:53):
So type, and again, I think partof the challenge here is.
It's self report, right?
And as we all know, Enneagram,you know, a person's, um, the
accuracy, right, of their selfidentification depends on their
self awareness, right?
So we don't really have a greatway to, to measure that.

(01:05:14):
Um, although we did ask people,so, you know, how sure are you
of your type?
So we, we have a little bit ofinformation, but, um, so I think
that's.
You know, probably to a nextstep would be using people who
really are confident, know theirtype, or maybe doing interviews
to, you know, get at that, butwhat we found is a skewed for

(01:05:35):
type one.
I'll just go through the typesof skew toward anxious
attachment.
So we ran correlations.
with each type and then anxiousattachment and avoidant
attachment just as a basic, youknow, kind of take on this.
So type one correlated morehighly with anxious attachment.
It did correlate a little bitwith avoidant, but a little, but
a fair amount higher withanxious attachment.

(01:05:57):
Um, type two, also a little bithigher with anxious attachment,
um, but there was somecorrelation with avoidant as
well.
And that was a little bitcloser.
So interesting to think about,you know, there may be some
dimensions of both in these inEnneagram types, right?
And especially we didn't takesubtypes into account at all.
So that's that would be anotherlayer of research.
Uh, type three did not reallycorrelate highly with with

(01:06:22):
either.
of anxious or avoidant, but alittle bit more highly with,
with anxious.
Um, but, but I would say that'sone where we need to kind of go
back to drawing board.
Um, cause the correlation waspretty low.
Type four, quite a bit morestrongly on the anxious side,
which was the prediction.
That makes sense to me.
A little bit of correlation withavoidant, but definitely higher

(01:06:42):
with anxious.
Um, type five, Higher withavoidance, um, which is pretty
significant.
Um, also because I've found thisin doing research on attachment
over the years that, um,avoidant attachment in a self
report measure tends to notcorrelate as much in general
with other measures.

(01:07:03):
I think because there's lessvariability, um, you know, on
the measure.
So people are.
There's not, in other words,there's not as much of a range
of scores.
People tend to score in a morerestricted range, and then that
impacts the ability for it tocorrelate with other things.
So we can do a whole statisticslesson on the next podcast for

(01:07:23):
people who have troublesleeping.
So type six, uh, correlatedquite a bit more highly with
anxious attachment and not, notat all really with avoidant.
That actually was the cleanest.
So that's, that's prettyinteresting.
So you guys can speak to that ifthat makes sense.
Um, type seven, interestingly,didn't really correlate with
either type a teeny bit withanxious, but, um, really not

(01:07:48):
much with either.
So that, that's one where it'slike, okay, we need to go back
to the drawing board and kind offigure that out.
Type eight.
Um, a little bit more withanxious.
And you can see the pattern,right?
There's more, more Enneagramtypes, correlate more with
anxiety.
Um, the, the one that sticks outthat correlates more with
avoidance Type five so far.
So type eight, a little bit morewith anxious, and then likewise,

(01:08:10):
type nine correlated more highlywith anxious.
Um,

Jeff (01:08:14):
Interesting.

Todd (01:08:15):
yeah.
So,

Jeff (01:08:17):
Well, thanks for being curious about it and even, even
walking down that path.
I mean, I, uh, that was sort ofour hypothesis that.
Each type could show up in, uh,one of the three different ways,
and it just would look unique tothat type.
But it is interesting to hearsome initial research on the
topic that could be helpful forpeople to at least have a domain

(01:08:40):
to kind of look into about theirattachment style.
Well, one of the things, so weEnneagram types.
And.
capturing a vision of what aconnected life would look like,
uh, with God and others, and howattachment style kind of, and
wounds can get in the way ofthat.

(01:09:00):
You've translated all of thisinto not only a vision for what
spiritual formation and humandevelopment could look like, but
also a way of training others inhelping to cultivate, um,
through a coaching relationship,

Todd (01:09:20):
Mm-Hmm.

Jeff (01:09:21):
the connected life.
So tell us about your relationalspirituality coaching and the
experience, like what, whatexactly is that experience that
you're offering to people whowant to become, um, you know,
experts in that

Todd (01:09:36):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thanks for mentioning that,Jeff.
So yeah, I started this a littleover a year ago and it's a, it's
a cohort based training program.
And so we're launching the thirdcohort in September coming up.
So we're right in the middle

Jeff (01:09:49):
I love the web page where you said, This is not a course.

Todd (01:09:52):
yes.
Yeah.
So it's yeah.
In a

Jeff (01:09:56):
Because like you said at the beginning, you're going to
participate.

Todd (01:09:59):
right, right.
It's not just a bunch of videoswe throw at people.
So it's a, it's a 12 week cohortmodel.
Um, so people go throughtogether and so we have an
orientation kickoff call.
On September 19th is when wekick off.
And so that's the first call isreally just for the cohort to
get to know each other.
We've already got a great groupof people in the cohort

(01:10:19):
registered and signed up.
And then we meet every otherweek on zoom.
So to our call on zoom.
And that's a time to just reallyprocess the material.
So we have six sessions, youknow, one for each of six
modules.
And so really what I've tried todo is take, I mean, really all
of my learning experience fromtherapy and coaching and

(01:10:40):
attachment and all this and kindof distill it down into, um, the
core knowledge and steps andskills for facilitating growth
and change so that people canthen use this in, in a coaching
context, but really more broadlyfor, you know, mentoring and
discipleship.
So it's really aimed at people,Christian leaders who are
involved in ministry that has.

(01:11:01):
Um, typically some kind of focuson discipleship mentoring or
coaching.
Some, some of them areprofessional coaches, not all of
them.
Some are pastors that are reallyinteresting.
Great mix of people who, uh,beginner, you know, really
involved in ministry in this wayand passionate about.
Discipleship and helping peoplechange at a deep level, like
we've been talking about andreally see the need for this in
the church.

(01:11:21):
But people who are, you know,some business leaders, we've had
doctors, um, physicians who areinvolved in, you know, various
kinds of ministry, pastors,coaches, spiritual directors,
some professors.
Um, so, yeah, so we meet every,every two weeks and really just,
um, process the material witheach other and do some Q and a,
and it's, it's, it's really beena blessing and a rich, A rich

(01:11:43):
time.
So yeah, if people areinterested, they can check it
out at, uh, relationalspirituality.
co and get all the informationthere.
We're right in the middle oflaunching this.
We've got the, the, actually theearly bird pricing is, is
available right now until August27th.
So a little bit more time forthat.
Um, and then.
I'll be

Jeff (01:12:02):
Now you have a master class that's coming up as well.
It's kind of an introduction towhat the program's about.

Todd (01:12:07):
Exactly.
Right.
So that's coming up September4th.
Um, there's a, yeah, I'd bedoing a master class, um, kind
of an overview of, of thematerial to help people just get
a sense of it.
Um, then leading into the, the,uh, program starting on, on the
19th.
So, yeah.
So people are doing that.
They can go to the website andget more information about that.

Jeff (01:12:28):
And be sure to check the show notes.
We'll have a link there.
So all the information thatyou'll need to get to, a link to
the books and a link to theRelational Spirituality Program.
You'll be able to find thatthere in the show notes.
Todd, thank you so much.
I mean, Adam and I can be quitejokesters and go on all kinds of
tangents, but man, yourpresence, your style of

(01:12:50):
relating, and just the thoughtsthat you're able to share are so
significant and so meaningful.
Like you, you just, um, We're sograteful.
You, you calmed our hearts down.

Todd (01:13:02):
Yeah.
Well, thank you, Jeff.
Yeah.

Jeff (01:13:05):
grateful for your work and, uh, just Beth and I've been
so grateful for you and yourwife's friendship over the years
and, uh, your ongoing work, uh,with the Enneagram and, um,
yeah, through research.
So thank you so much for beingwith us today.

Todd (01:13:18):
Well, you're welcome.
I appreciate it, Jeff.
It's been yeah, great getting toknow you and Beth and you, Adam.
And yeah, I really appreciateyou guys having me on and having
this conversation.

Adam (01:13:27):
Yeah, it's been a lot of fun, Todd, and thanks for
hanging with us.
And to our audience, thank youfor hanging with us.
Remember, as always, as we sayin each episode, the Enneagram
reveals your need for Jesus, notyour need to work harder.
It is the gospel that transformsus.
Thank you all for tuning in andwe'll see you in the next
episode.