October 7, 2024 • 53 mins
Join us on the podcast as we welcome therapist and author Chuck DeGroat to discuss his transformative new book, Healing What’s Within.
We all face challenges that leave their mark on us, often leading to buried pain that we struggle to acknowledge. If you feel disconnected from your true self, you're not alone.
In this episode we’ll delve into:
- How to gently confront what’s keeping you stuck
- The relationship between your body and emotions
- Finding real rest and renewal in your connections with God, others, and yourself
Tune in and discover how to heal from within! Don’t miss it!
Thank you to our guest:
Chuck DeGroat (Type 4)
Socials - @chuckdegroat
Website - https://www.chuckdegroat.net/
New book - Healing What's Within https://a.co/d/9GAbUFY
We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com.
FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources
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#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth (00:00):
Hey, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to your Enneagram coach,the podcast.
I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagramcoach.
And today I am so excited that Iget to be back into the podcast
booth for just one interview.
Um, as a lot of, you know, I'mon sabbatical and you'll get to
hear a lot of what thatsabbatical has been like for me
in this interview and what isactually going on.
(00:21):
Why am I taking a break?
I think it's healthy foreveryone to take a break from
time to time.
Um, But you'll hear that a lotof my childhood, um, uh, wounds,
uh, kind of has, have definitelycaught up to me more than I
realized.
And the coping strategies that Ihave formed over, you know,
(00:43):
gosh, I'm almost 50.
So over five decades have beenmore revealed to me than ever in
God's graciousness.
And he's helping me to unpackthem one day at a time to have
more deep and true healing.
Um, it's not easy work, but itis really, really good work.
(01:03):
And so I thank you guys so muchfor your patience as I've
stepped away for a season andallowed, um, Adam Breckenridge
and my husband, Jeff McCord tostep into the podcast booth and
guide you guys along the way.
They're loving it.
And I hope that you are too.
Well, today, The reason I'mstepping back into the podcast
(01:24):
booth is because I'm going tointerview Chuck DeGrowth, who is
an author, um, a professor, acounselor, and so many other
things, a pastor, because he haswritten a new book that's coming
out on October 2nd.
And I'll hold it up here so thatthose that are on the YouTube,
uh, watching this, you can seeit, Healing What's Within.
(01:47):
Now I love the subtitle ofHealing What's Within is coming
home to yourself and to God whenyou're wounded, weary, and
wandering.
This just came at such a timelytime.
moment for me.
Um, I have had the privilege ofgetting an advanced reader copy
(02:07):
because as you heard, it comesout October 8th.
Um, and it literally could nothave come to me at a better
time.
It came right as I started mysabbatical.
And it has helped me tounderstand in a more full way
the things that I Um, thestruggles, the hurts, the pains
(02:30):
that I had growing up that Ididn't even know or realize
because I really had, you know,for all intents and purposes,
what people would see is thisreally happy, loving family.
But there were a thousand littlepaper cuts along the way that I
didn't realize were Impacting myeveryday life, my thought
(02:50):
processes, my coping styles in away that was actually hindering
and sabotaging my personal lifeand my relationships and my work
life.
Not so much in as big overt waysas maybe for some, but for me in
little ways that added up overfive decades and, uh, in July, I
(03:11):
got shingles.
And I'm pretty young to getshingles.
And so it was my body's way ofsaying, hello, I really need you
to go within to focus and toheal.
And so that's why I've takenthis time to do my own inner
work, even on a deeper level,obviously I've done a lot of
inner work over the years, but Ithink God reveals to us bits and
(03:33):
pieces graciously, instead ofone full swoop.
Now, of course.
I would rather learn and getover it and go on with my life,
but God has us going about itone step at a time, because
that's what we can handle.
And he's gracious in doing that.
So part of that, my healing pathhas been Chuck's book, Healing
What's Within.
And so today you're going to geta fuller glimpse of what that
(03:57):
book is about, why he wrote itand how it has impacted me and
my personal story.
So let me just tell you again,Chuck DeGroat is not only a
personal friend, but he is aprofessor of pastoral care and
Christian spirituality atWestern Theological Seminary in
Holland, Michigan, where he alsoserves as the founding executive
(04:17):
director of the clinical mentalhealth counseling program.
Now he's also a licensedtherapist, spiritual director.
author, as you can see, um, aretreat leader, speaker, and
faculty member with the SoulCare Institute.
Now, as a therapist, hespecializes in navigating issues
of abuse and trauma, pastoraland leadership health, and doubt
(04:41):
and dark nights of the soul thatwe all journey through.
And so he trains clergy inhandling these issues of abuse
and trauma, uh, conducts pastorand conduct.
Um, church planter assessments,and then he facilitates church
consultations in investigationsof abuse that have happened.
So before we transition intothis timeframe, I just want you
(05:05):
to know that Chuck is also goingto reveal part of his story,
which is really in this book andit's beautifully laid out, um,
of his time, um, gettingwounded, um, in a church hurt
church.
Um, firing that he experienced,but then also his journey
through healing, um, along theway.
Now he is married to his wife,Sarah, and they have two
(05:28):
beautiful adult daughters.
And without further ado, let meget into my time that I
absolutely loved with ChuckDeGroat.
Okay.
So Chuck, your book could nothave come at a better time for
me.
I mean, it's literally theperfect timing because right now
I'm actually in sabbatical, asyou know, and I'm sure some of
our listeners know.
(05:49):
Um, and, um, It has helped me tounderstand and speak to what's
going on with me, which ishealing what's in, within.
Uh, so what I've been learning,uh, so far and how you
beautifully unpack things isthat the pain we carry is not
just about what happened to us,but what happened within us
(06:11):
after our trauma or heartache.
Um, And it's about thedisconnection that forms within
us and how we often choose tocope in isolation.
So as just people in general,we're trying to navigate life.
We tend to suppress ouremotions.
We're ignoring our core needs,our, pain.
(06:33):
Um, we try to help with theseunhelpful coping styles that we
have.
And when we don't address theroot, which is disconnection,
our relationships withourselves, others, and God begin
to unrode.
And this is all in kind of yourintroduction.
So this, this disconnection canthen turn into trauma.
(06:54):
Because as you explain, um, thatIt's what is ignored or
misunderstood that actuallycauses the suffering.
So what I would love, um, youknow, or actually what I love
about your approach is how youtake us back to the beginning
and Genesis in the story.
And what you do is you remindus.
(07:14):
That God has already laid out apath for healing and instead of,
you know, being left to copealone, God lovingly meets us in
our pain and shame, asking threespecific questions.
And these questions, you know,are asked with compassion and
curiosity, which you also talkabout how we usually think the
(07:35):
opposite, he's coming at us witha stern fist, but that we get to
listen.
And to hear him in a whole newway and to abide in his care.
So I.
would love, you know, just forus to kind of see that as a full
picture, that God is not angry,but he's actually that
empathetic witness that we needto walk with us in our
(07:57):
suffering.
And as you write, that trauma isnot what happens to us, but what
we hold inside, with the absenceof an empathetic witness.
And so God being that infinite,kind, empathetic witness.
He, as you describe our, he'sasking us to reconnect with him
(08:18):
so that we can heal our deepestwounds.
So before we dive into the threeparts of the book, which are the
three questions, um, which thefirst is God asks Adam and Eve,
where are you?
And then the second, who toldyou?
And then the third, um, have youeaten from the tree?
I'd love to start by asking.
(08:39):
Okay.
So what inspired you to writethis book and what was the
journey that influenced why youwrote this book?
Chuck (08:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
First of all, you justarticulated that so much better
than I do.
So can, can we, can we do thistogether from now on?
Beth (08:58):
I would love to, I, I, I seriously, if you saw my book
and how much it's under, like ifpeople don't go get this book,
like right now, like stop therecording and go get it.
You're missing out.
Chuck (09:09):
well, I mean, you know, a little bit of my story, but, uh,
I was fired by a church in 2003after serving for six years and
it was really painful and itfelt like, uh, an injustice.
And when those kinds of thingshappen, you know, it's not just
days or weeks, it's months andyears where you, you think about
(09:29):
it, you stew, you simmer, youthink about ways of getting the
justice that you, that you want.
Um, About all the people whodidn't step up and say something
on your behalf, all the things,you know, and I, uh, I In the
really in the months and yearsafter that happened.
Um, I, I was a therapist so Ishould have known better.
(09:50):
That's my caveat, but I put myhead down and charged ahead and
at tremendous cost to my bodyand soul.
What's, what's fascinating is inthose years after I did some
writing.
That I think turned out to behalfway decent.
My first book, I think, is agood book.
I think I led good retreats andguided people into good places
(10:14):
in their lives, but all thewhile kind of ignoring what was
simmering within me.
Um, and now I was going totherapy and I was talking about
my story, so to speak, but I wasmissing.
the, that traumatic impact thatyou just hinted at, right?
I was missing what was simmeringwithin and the dysregulation
(10:36):
within me, a nervous system outof whack, so to speak, to put it
in lay person's terms.
Right.
And so I, I landed in a hospitalin Mexico in 2012.
Um, my body just essentiallystarted to give out longer story
to that.
That's what really shifted me toattend in a new way.
(10:58):
To what was happening withinit's not to say you ignore what
happened to you not at all butwe do have to Shift our
attention at some point to thattraumatic imprint within
Beth (11:10):
yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the reason why this was.
I have been blessed to get anadvanced reader copy.
And so I know that it's not evenout yet.
Um, uh, and so it's coming outin october right.
Chuck (11:25):
Yeah.
october 8th.
Yeah
Beth (11:26):
Okay.
Um, that's what I was going tosay that, but I was like, Oh, I
don't want to say the wrongdate.
Um, but literally it's been sobeneficial because, um, I have
lived with, uh, You know, innertrauma from childhood, and like
you said, it's like a thousandlittle paper cuts, you know,
along the way that it's justhard to see that, you know, Oh,
(11:48):
that's what happened to me andthat's why I have this distorted
thinking and, and you, you know,and I, I've coped well, you
know, I, I, I've learned a ton.
I've grown, I've known there'ssomething wrong.
It's like God has just unveiledbits and pieces over time that I
could handle in that moment,like his disgraciousness.
(12:09):
Um, because like you said, I'man Enneagram coach.
I, of course I know I people,please.
Of course.
Um, I know I knew a lot and, andhealed from certain things, but
I took the sabbatical because Icould see there were so much
more within that needed to behealed and my story, similar to
your story this summer, I gotshingles.
(12:32):
And I'd already felt just burntout and, you know, like I was
just showing me like, Hey, youreally have got to stop and go
inward.
And the last straw was my body,you know, at such a young age
going, Hello.
Chuck (12:46):
Yes.
Beth (12:48):
you know, to, in his, you know, his graciousness to really
wake me up and those around methat, oh, I'm actually suffering
more than I realized because itwas a thousand paper cuts versus
some major huge trauma that isnoticeable.
So anyway, for me, this has justbeen such a helpful book.
Well, um, so right now, youknow, in the sabbatical season,
(13:11):
I'm focusing on those woundsthat came from my childhood
experience.
But what I've noticed is that itshapes such distorted thinking
and.
And it has impacted myrelationships in work.
Now your book, especially onchapter or part one, helped me
to really see how disconnected Ihave been, not just from others,
(13:36):
but really from my own heart andactually what's true, like
reality.
And I didn't even realize howmuch fear, shame, and unresolved
grief I have experienced.
What I was having and what wasreally driving the distorted
thinking, which kept meisolated.
Now, when I say isolated, and Iknow that you would say this
(13:56):
too, I mean, Yes part, part ofit as a nine.
Yep.
I'm going to withdraw and I'mgoing to isolate, but it was
more an isolation of not beingfully honest with myself and
others of the pain that waswithin, which fueled.
My coping strategies and so likemany I found myself, you know,
(14:17):
just using these strategies toavoid pain You know the things
that I was using were goingalong, you know to get along
focusing on others to avoidconflict You know all the nine
Enneagram types have their ownlittle flavor of
Chuck (14:32):
Yeah.
Beth (14:33):
But instead of finding that connection the joy that I
was trying to get through thosestrategies I actually felt more
isolated and so I relate to thelonging that you talk about in
Eden that like you long to goback to eat.
Like there's something there.
And mine was, I just want peaceand harmony and connection and
(14:55):
everyone to be happy.
Um, Um, but I couldn't find it.
And so your experience that youtalk about in the first part of
the book about driving acrossthe Golden Gate Bridge with the
fog and you heard God's gentlewhisper, where are you?
The, well, that really stuckwith me and it reminded me, you
(15:15):
know, of God's, that God'squestion is not one that is of
condemnation, but it is a lovinginvitation to reconnect with him
and ourselves.
So.
Can you kind of, you know, justWalk us through and talk us
through that question of whereare you as an invitation to pay
(15:35):
actually attention to the wayswe've strayed these coping
strategies and distortedthinking, because I would love
to hear.
I think so many of us think thatGod is, again, coming with
sternness and harshness, but howit's actually loving and so we
get to courageously confrontthese patterns because we know
that we are deeply loved andcherished.
(15:57):
So unpack that first question.
Where are you?
Chuck (16:00):
Yeah.
God is actually walking in thegarden in the cool of the day,
which is to say, you know, inthe late afternoon, probably
early evening when the sun wasgoing down, think of, you don't
want to take a walk in theMiddle East, you know, at noon.
And, you know, the hint in thetext is that this is when God
and Adam and Eve would havetaken their walks together.
(16:22):
And now God is walking, uh,calling out, where are you?
Like, this is.
This is the time we go on walkstogether.
I missed you, uh, which to meis, is such a, a, a question of
kindness and, and that wordwhere, by the way, um, uh,
someone came to me, uh, after,and I don't think this made the
(16:42):
book, but someone came to meafter a conference that I led on
this and said, do you know thatthat word where in the Hebrew is
the first word of the book oflamentations?
And it's a word of heartbreak.
It's a, uh, A word of lament, aword of longing, right?
And so at the very beginning,God's heart is breaking for us
because God misses us and thatwhere are you, uh, recognizes
(17:06):
that we have strayed east ofEden, far from God.
On on one level, and I think forme, it became an important
question to ask myself, uh,every morning, multiple times
throughout the day, because thereality is, is almost
immediately after I wake up, I'meast of Eden.
I am off to the races.
(17:27):
My mind starts going.
I'm already thinking about myday and what there is to do, or
I'm thinking about some newsstory or some sports story or
something, so I'm on my phonechecking those stories out, and
I've strayed far from myself.
And like you, we're helpers.
We engage people, we producethings that we hope will be
(17:47):
helpful to people, and we can beinattentive to our own needs.
in the process.
That's why we take sabbaticals.
I'll take mine next fall.
And, and so, uh, where are youhelps you to sort of retune to
listen to the kind whisper ofGod.
I miss you come back.
And for me, there's a certaingrounding that begins to take
(18:09):
place when I, When I hear thatquestion, like, okay, I can come
back into my body.
Now I can be present to what'sgoing on inside of me.
Uh, yesterday I I've beenspeaking over the weekend in
Chattanooga and, uh, came homeand I felt really good on
Monday.
And then I woke up yesterday andI felt like I get.
(18:31):
My window of tolerance wasreally small and I had a full
day and I knew in asking thatquestion that I had to make some
choices yesterday to, uh, justto sort of take care of myself.
Um, and I did throughout theday.
Step back from a couple ofdifferent things and
disappointed a couple of peoplein the process, but needed to do
(18:54):
that.
Beth (18:55):
Yeah.
man, that is so good.
And, you know, I think the, thequestion, where are you?
What I love how you paint alsoin the book is how we've grown
up, I would say in our probablyWestern Christian culture that,
um, everything is supposed to berosy and great.
And when it's not.
(19:15):
Um, you know, God is angry withus and I love that picture that
you have and I feel like that'ssuch a key element to beginning
the process to go within becauseif we don't have, if we don't
know that we belong to himbecause of what he's done for
us, then we can't fullyunderstand that he is that
(19:38):
empathetic witness.
Can you talk about theempathetic witness and trauma?
Chuck (19:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I begin with this quotefrom Gabor Mate, who's become
quite popular.
retired physician who's writtena lot on trauma, uh, where he
says something to the effect istrauma is not what happens to
you, but what happens inside inthe absence of an empathetic or
compassionate witness.
And that really struck me thefirst time I came across that,
(20:03):
that idea, um, that, thatsomehow that stress and
overwhelm grows, uh, when we'realone.
And, uh, that's become such animportant piece.
for me personally, because, uh,the reality is, is after my
firing in 2003, I put my headdown and, and not only did I not
(20:26):
let people in, um, surprisingly,people just didn't ask.
They saw me as the kind ofperson, maybe, Some people see
you like this, the kind ofperson who's supposed to be put
together, that's supposed totake care of others.
And, um, because I, uh, did dowhat I needed to do to kind of
make a living in the months andyears after, people even called
(20:48):
me resilient.
Um, by the way, that's not whatresilience is.
Resilience is not try harder.
Resilience is not doggeddetermination.
Um, and so I needed to begin tolet people into what was going
on within me.
And I think the kindness ofGenesis chapter three is that's
where God begins.
Like God is right there withyou, uh, in, in a way that, um,
(21:13):
offers you kindness andcompassion and curiosity.
Now I say that out loud and Irecognize that some people
aren't there and their woundsactually came in the context of
a church or, Um, in the presenceof a pastor and it's like, don't
eat, like, I don't want to gothere.
And what I'd say is, uh, thendon't go there.
(21:33):
Uh, but I've sat with peopleover the course of time.
There are stories that I, I tellof, of sitting with people who
couldn't go there.
But after two or three years ofmy compassionate presence, there
was a sense of, I remember one,you know, One woman saying to
me, you know, that, that oldbenediction that I remember from
church, may the Lord make hisface to shine upon you.
(21:56):
I think I'm beginning to believeit because your face has shined
upon me over these last threeyears.
Right.
And so it's connection, it'spresence that begins to, um, to,
to offer us the possibility ofreunion with ourselves, with one
another and with God.
Beth (22:13):
Yeah.
So moving into part two of thebook, um, where, you know, we,
we talk about who told you, youknow?
Um, and again, like, I mean, Ijust naturally, when I, when I
hear these questions, Iliterally kind of cringe like,
Oh, he's mad at me.
You know, like, like it's justthe way we've kind of been
brought up and also just likeour natural human ways of
(22:37):
thinking and just sort of.
thinking.
So, um, but you ask us to payattention to these voices, this
distorted thinking, these copingstrategies that we've adopted
throughout the years.
Um, and thinking that they'reprotecting us all along, but
really instead they're creatingthis isolation and even more
(22:57):
pain with fear right with it.
So, um, what really struck withme is how you described trauma,
um, you know, as Um, not, notbeing seen or known by God yet
fully seen and know, but that hefully sees and knows us.
So he invites us to be friend,the painful parts within us.
(23:20):
Oh, that's so hard.
And I loved in the book, how youtalk about, it's a great way of,
you know, of thinking about it.
Cause you talk about sayinghello to these parts of us that
are in pain, like our woundedchild and such.
Um, and I'd love for you toexplain like what that means and
how people, um, can greet thesekinds of hidden parts that are
(23:42):
within us with this compassion,this kindness in a whole new
way.
So like, what does say hello
Chuck (23:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's, that's a chapter that,uh, that I integrated the movie
Inside Out into before I knewthat there was going to be an
Inside Out 2 that came up.
So, I guess it was timely.
Um, I wish I would have knownabout the second movie, but
it's, uh, you know, if you'veseen the movie or movies, Um,
you, you know that there's a lotmore going on you than meets the
(24:11):
eye, right?
And I often say that you don'thave a story, you have stories,
plural.
Um, and there's, there's storieswithin you that parts of you
hold that, um, are important topay attention to.
And that often begins in thepresent moment.
Oftentimes when we talk aboutour stories, we talk about it in
the abstract, about the thingsthat happen to us.
And we can be very disconnectedas we do that.
(24:34):
But it can begin by simplypaying attention.
So, you know, for instance,yesterday I told you I woke up,
I was in, at the smaller windowof tolerance and I, I'm at home
today, but I often go to, uh,the seminary where I teach, uh,
to go to work.
And I walked in and there was abig event happening and I felt
(24:56):
almost immediately, I felt mysocial anxiety just skyrocket.
And, uh, Uh, there's there's oneof those things that people
might not think about folks likeyou or me that there are these
things that happen within us orthat we get anxiety in these
particular kinds of ways.
Well, I knew that I had to makea choice to, uh, go down to my
(25:17):
office and sort of hibernate fora little bit.
Um, and it was an importantchoice.
Um, it was kind of disappointingperhaps to people who, uh,
expected to see me at thisparticular event.
Uh, but what I did was I wentinto my office and this gets at
that saying hello piece.
I realized that, uh, I wasfeeling some, some shame, some
(25:40):
insecurity.
And as I.
As I paid attention, as I sortof greeted that emotion within
me that was welling up and Icould feel it in my, my chest
and my throat, my face, um, itwas almost as if I felt myself
back at my, my, it was probablyfive or six years old at a
birthday party where all thekids were looking at me and
(26:03):
singing happy birthday, whichfor some kids would be like,
Yay.
I'm in the spotlight.
And for me, it was my, maybe myfirst ever panic attack.
And, um, there I was in thatspace in my office, not up at
the event that Parts of me feltlike I should have been at, but
down in my office, attending towhat was happening within paying
(26:24):
attention to this voice.
Now there's another voice thatpopped up and said, you should
be upstairs right now.
Um, what, what a disappointment,you know, you should be better
than this.
You should be over this.
You started this journey whenyou were 27 and you're 54 now.
And you,
Beth (26:41):
Right.
Chuck (26:42):
and I, I said, hello, I said, wow, you're, you're angry
this morning.
Can we talk?
And so now I had two parts of methat I was sort of, uh, talking
to, you know, and that, forpeople who are listening right
now, um, they might think Chuckis schizophrenic, like what's
happening here right now, what,who has Beth invited onto the
(27:03):
podcast, but, uh, it's simply amatter of beginning to pay
attention to those voices withinthose parts of us that have a
story to tell.
Um, have an emotion that theywant to share with us.
Something's going on within.
that we often ignore.
Beth (27:20):
Yeah.
And it's, as you said, that thefirst thing that came up to me
is, can we, as, uh, the belovedchild, the, the true self, can
we be that empathetic witness tothose parts of us?
Is that kind of
Chuck (27:36):
Yeah.
I think, I think that's right.
And I think, uh, what'sbeautiful about that is, is
that, um, you know, when we areconnected in, um, most deeply,
right?
Like when we feel grounded, whenwe feel it, as I talk about in
the book at home in ourselves,uh, we discover that God is
right there with us because Godhas taken up residence.
(27:57):
within by the spirit, right?
And so the spirit is bearingwitness.
We're bearing witness.
Um, I, uh, I tell the story inthere, this whole idea of saying
hello comes from a, uh, poet anda theologian named Padre
Gotuama.
And he, he, uh, he says, youknow, hello in Aramaic is
Shalom.
It's peace be with you.
And so in a sense, Uh, I canhear Jesus whispering within
(28:22):
peace, be with you to that loudinner critic who says, no, you
should be upstairs right now.
You should push through this.
Uh, he was loud for a lot ofyears of my life.
You know, I say peace, be withyou.
It's okay.
Thank you for reminding me of myresponsibilities.
And I'll take that intoconsideration.
(28:42):
It's sort of like if you havekids, you know, and your kids
are sitting around the table andyou know, the one kid is kind of
shy and pulling away and theother kid is yelling and angry
and judgmental and it's like,peace be with you.
And you're talking to this onekid a little differently than
you're talking to this otherkid.
You know, we, uh, we offer aword of peace and that word of
peace is, uh, a word that Jesusoffers from within too.
Beth (29:04):
Yeah.
And as you were talking aboutthat and the whole inside out,
and I know like you said, youdidn't write this book even
knowing Inside Out 2 was comingand what that would even entail,
but just being that empatheticwitness, um, even for ourselves,
these parts that are hurting,um, like I was watching the
(29:25):
movie, sorry, spoiler alert, youknow, for anyone that hasn't
seen it, maybe fast forward.
You know, I'm watching the movieand it, you know, it's just so
beautiful and so stirring.
But I hadn't like cried yet, youknow, but I was just sitting
there and as anxiety, uh, flewout of her own storm, she looked
(29:45):
at Joy and just said, I was justtrying to help and And I lost it
and I'm like in the theater andI'm trying so hard not to ugly
cry, not because the ugly cryingis bad, but you know, everyone
else is trying to enjoy themovie, you know, and I could
have just been sobbing loudly.
And it, there's a part of methat is saying I've, I'm trying
(30:08):
really hard and I'm, I'm tryingto.
And to prevent the pain thatwe've had in the past now.
And I can see that my waysaren't actually helping us and
I'm sorry.
And I've tried.
And then I get to be theempathetic witness and, and love
that part of me.
Like you have tried really hardand I'm so thankful for the work
(30:32):
you have done on my behalf, butit isn't helping us.
And so we need a new way andthat's really what this.
Um, sabbatical season, you know,is all about is, is diving into
those distorted thinking, copingstrategies, which really gets us
into, and man, there's so muchin each of these parts that I
would love to unpack with you,but we're going to get into part
(30:56):
three because this gets into,did you eat from the tree?
And once again, when I hearthat, I first hear it with a
sense, a tinge of wrath or angerinstead of.
Hey, did you eat from the tree?
And the chapter I kind of wantto focus on just, and all of
part three, but was the chapteron addiction, um, and grace,
(31:19):
which was chapter seven.
Now addiction and grace, youknow, was part three.
particularly eye opening for me.
And it helped me to see thataddiction isn't just these big,
obvious things that we associatewith, you know, like substances
and behaviors that aredestroying our lives and others,
but that all of us experience ona deeper level, this longing for
(31:43):
union and connection andcommunion and belonging.
And so what really struck withme is how you described.
That we often believe the liethat we can somehow satisfy this
longing we have of union andcommunion in our own terms.
And you beautifully use Jeremiah2, 13 where it says we have dug
(32:04):
our own cisterns, brokencisterns, which are like vases
or cups or a well, brokencisterns that can't hold water.
But Right.
next to us the whole time is thespring of living water.
God's full, loving, providingpresence that's within us.
And so what I've recognized forme is like, have you eaten from
the tree?
(32:24):
As you kind of worded it in, um,the, the chapter is, um, a
chemical cocktail.
So my chemical cocktail, sowhat, what gives me, uh,
dopamine or all the other thingsthat make you feel good, or at
least what we think feels goodin the moment, is people
pleasing, right.
As a type nine.
Okay.
If I just make everyone happy,if I don't disrupt the waters,
(32:47):
if I just keep to myself, thenwe're good.
Um, I'll feel at ease and I'llfeel like I belong.
And as you highlight, thesestrategies don't work and they
keep us actually isolated and weneed Connection.
the, like you said, theantithesis to addiction is
Chuck (33:05):
Connection.
Yeah.
Beth (33:06):
And so unpack for us what this means.
Have you eaten from the tree?
Hmm.
Chuck (33:13):
It's, uh, you and I live the same life apparently because
I've heard, heard thesequestions as angry and, and, um,
and dismissive.
And, you know, this thirdquestion was the toughest one
for me.
And I remember leading a retreata number of years ago, asking
God, what, what are you gettingat there?
You know, because the first twoare open ended questions.
And then this third one is likea yes, no, you know, yeah.
(33:35):
And what I heard was, where haveyou taken your hunger and
thirst?
Um, how have you been coping?
And each of us can answer that,um, in some way or another.
Um, I think I, I tell this storyin there, um, real quick.
Uh, I often say my favorite 16thcentury Saint is St.
Teresa of Avila.
Um, that surprises peoplebecause they'll think John
(33:57):
Calvin or Martin Luther orsomeone like that.
But, um, this incredible womanwho lived in, in Spain.
A mystic who wrote the interiorcastle.
And, um, she tells the story ofwalking along one day and the
Spanish countryside and seeingthese Roman aqueducts that would
carry water.
That was the way of getting thewater you needed back in the
day.
And by then these aqueducts wereout of date by the 16th century,
(34:21):
they were no longer being used.
They were these marvels ofengineering that didn't work
anymore.
And she saw her life in thatimage.
Um, I had erected theseaqueducts that I thought would
give me.
what I needed, and they couldn'tpossibly do that.
And that's when she discoveredthat Jesus was the spring of
(34:41):
living water, offering hereverything she needed.
Sort of like the father says tothe older brother, you were
always with me and everything Ihave is yours, right?
Um, addiction is our way oftrying to solve a problem.
Um, that isn't in some ways,even really a problem if Jesus
is already the spring of livingwater within us, right?
(35:02):
But it's a way of coping, and itbegan in the garden with Adam
and Eve grasping from the tree,um, in the midst of their own
big question.
serpent who slithers up to themand says, Did God really say in
the midst of their own sense ofmaybe we're missing something?
Maybe God's holding out on us.
Maybe God isn't really good.
(35:23):
We have those very samequestions, and we attempt to
meet our own needs in all kindsof different ways.
And we, as you sort of rightlypoint to, we talk about the big
addictions often.
Um, but there are the smallerones.
And what I often say is what,um, where do you go for
soothing?
You know, how, how do you cope?
Where, uh, where does yourenergy go?
(35:45):
Um, I, I told the story lastweekend when I was speaking of
like years ago, I was watchingthe show that everyone else in
America was watching and, uh,was on HBO max.
And, uh, I, I got ready for theshow one late one night and, uh,
You know, had my drink in mypopcorn or whatever I had, you
know, how you get anticipatethese things, right?
(36:05):
Whether it's a show or a ballgame or whatever it might be,
and an error code came up and,you know, like I was personally
incensed that, um, you know,that HBO max would do this to
me.
I was, Personally, deeplyoffended, you know, and I went
online and I saw that otherpeople had taken offense to, but
you know, when that error codewent away, my nervous system
(36:27):
soothed and I realized, oh,well, there it is, you know, it
may not be some big, badaddiction, you know, that we
talked about, but it's somethingthat I'm taking my heart to.
Now, I didn't stop watching theshow, but it's an invitation to
pay attention to To our variousways of soothing our various
selves, you know, and, and, uh,an invitation by God to come
(36:51):
back, uh, to the source, theliving water.
Yeah,
Beth (36:56):
yeah, And, and the reason why I love you using that verse,
which is so impactful for me isJeff and I use Jeremiah 2.
13 all the time in our teachingbecause the Enneagram is Um,
isn't the tool, obviously God'sword is the tool, but what the
Enneagram does is it's kind oflike a map, a cheat sheet, a
guide, you know, tounderstanding our particular
(37:19):
ways a little bit quicker sothat we can unpack, um, our
story with clear, more clarityand understanding.
Um, because we all, and we talkabout all nine types have four
core motivations.
We have a core fear, what we'rerunning away from, a core
desire, what like, Oh, if I justget this life will be perfect.
(37:39):
We have a core weakness.
Other teachers call it thepassion or the deadly sin, and
that's tripping us up all thetime.
And then we have a core longing,a message our heart longs to
hear and experience.
And we talk about how we areconstantly.
Trying to satisfy this core
Chuck (37:55):
yeah,
Beth (37:56):
through our relationships, our work, you know, status,
image, um, you know, addictions,like everything is focusing on
this core longing and each ofthe nine types have a purpose.
Um, and so there's this oneparticular core longing.
Obviously we all have lots oflongings, but there's this one
that really is at the forefront.
(38:17):
And so, you know, we're, we'resitting there, you know, in life
and we've got the spring next tous, but kind of ignore it,
right?
Like, you know, yeah, I don'tknow.
And we kind of turn and weforget that it's even there,
it's right there.
And we start digging cistronsand think of it like, A pool,
you know, like you, youactually, it's really funny,
Jeff, growing up in Dallas, himand his friend were so hot one
(38:39):
day, they thought they could diga pool in the backyard.
And so they attempted, attemptedthis.
And so, you know, they may havegotten like four feet by four
feet, let's
Chuck (38:49):
brilliant.
Wow.
Beth (38:51):
three inches, five inches deep, who knows?
And it's like, okay, so let'sjust pour water into it.
Let's go for it.
Uh, We all know what happens,right?
It just dissipates.
And so what happens with ourcore longing, you know, my core
longing is to hear.
Your presence matters to likeknow that I have significance
belonging you as a type one.
(39:12):
It's to hear you are good Typetwos.
I'll just go ahead go aroundbecause everyone's gonna be like
what's mine?
Type twos is to hear that yourneeds are not a problem type
three is that you are I'm sorryType 2 is, it's not that, even
though that's close to it, isyou are loved and wanted.
Type 3 is you are loved andwanted for simply being you.
(39:34):
It's not about status, um, it'sabout just being you.
Type 4 is you are loved andwanted, uh, just for who you
are, special and unique andknown.
And then type 5, your needs arenot a problem.
Type 6, you are safe and secure.
Type 7 is you will be taken careof.
And type eights is you will notbe betrayed and type nine, just
(39:58):
one more time, uh, your presencematters.
And so we're constantly diggingcisterns because we've forgotten
forsaken the spring of livingwater.
And it's like, Oh, like for me,Oh, well, if I just make this
person happy, or if I just keepthis relationship at peace, if I
just this, this, this, and this,then I'll be okay when actuality
(40:20):
Christ has already satisfied ourcore longing.
And that's where we get to turnto the spring and just drink it
up fully.
And so can you kind of paint apicture of the, kind of the end
of the book, kind of wrapping itup, you talk about a holy
hunger.
Can you just kind of let us geta glimpse of what that's like?
Chuck (40:43):
Yeah.
I, uh, again, you, you justarticulated it really
beautifully and, um, I love thatyou can sort of go around the
Enneagram and name some of thosecore longings.
And I suspect listeners arelike, yeah.
Um, I, I think that, and by theway, I'm a four.
So, um,
Beth (41:04):
that's so fun.
Did you, did you, I knew that.
Did you at one time way
Chuck (41:09):
Oh, I did.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
Um,
Beth (41:12):
I'm really good at remembering what people say
their type is for some reason.
That's just like,
Chuck (41:17):
this.
The very short story is I, Iwas, I became acquainted with
the Enneagram in the latenineties and I started as a four
and that's where I immediatelysort of identified myself, but
someone who is a supposed expertin the Enneagram typed me as a
one back in 2008 and I, I sortof tried that on for size for
about four or five years.
(41:37):
And.
Beth (41:38):
Okay.
Chuck (41:38):
said this isn't it.
Um, and I found my way back to.
Beth (41:42):
I, you know, cause in my mind I was going back and forth
cause I think I knew that story,but okay.
So anyway, so type four, you areseen in love for exactly who you
are special and unique is yourcore longing.
Chuck (41:54):
Yeah.
And when you said that just now,like, and I can feel it, I tears
come up, like, like, that'sjust, they're there right now.
And, um, there's such a hungerfor that love, you know, that of
course is connected to my ownstory and, uh, some of, some of
my own, uh, death by a thousandcuts, as we talked about a
(42:15):
little earlier, you know, someof the.
Early attachment and relationalmisses.
Um, but I think what's sobeautiful is that what I what I
do, you know, this, uh, thatquestion, that third question,
um, anticipates the questionthat Jesus asks more than any
other in the gospels.
And that's a question of.
(42:36):
What do you long for?
What are you hungry for?
What are you thirsty for?
What do you want?
And I think that's so beautifulthat, here again, Jesus, uh,
just, just as God shows up inGenesis chapter 3, Jesus doesn't
show up with condemnation,doesn't show up with a closed
ended question, you know, butwith this open ended, what do
(42:56):
you most deeply hunger for?
What are you most deeply thirstfor?
And the reality is, is that, Youknow, as we were just talking
about those, those temporarycells just don't do it for you.
And if you've ever beenaddicted, whether it's
something, you know, the reallybig sins that the church
identifies or, or the thingsthat you're sort of just kind of
(43:16):
wondering, I wonder, you know,there's two or three glasses of
wine every night or that showthat, you know, that I, I just
don't stop, whatever it mightbe.
Um, as we begin to identifythese things and ask what our
hearts most.
deeply long for.
That's where people begin toexperience a greater
expansiveness because addictionconstricts.
(43:39):
And you know, no, no one'sreally satisfied with those ways
of coping.
But as you begin to connect toyour deepest desires, and this
is where your work is so helpfulin pointing people to those, you
know, unique longings of, of theEnneagram types.
I can say Okay, I need, I needto be loved.
I need to belong.
(43:59):
I need to be known.
Um, I need to live with acertain authenticity.
Those are really core to who Iam.
And absent that, my life isgoing to feel really
constricted, you know?
And so how do I get those corelongings met?
Um, how do, how does that informmy way of praying, you know?
And, and, um, how does thatchange my way of going about my
(44:22):
day?
And so I'm To go back to thebeginning.
We may start our day with, whereare you?
And notice that we're alreadybeing pulled out to see, you
know, and we can return and thereality is God is right there
smiling with open arms waitingfor the reunion and that's the
good news.
Beth (44:42):
Yeah, And, and you paint in the, in that chapter, the
picture of the prodigal son, andyou already mentioned the older
son, like I, you know, you'vehad everything here, but then
the prodigal son, he's runningto him and lavishes him with
love versus the condemnation andshame that we all think we're
like, quote unquote, do.
And I.
(45:04):
He.
He.
I just love that.
And so I think from an Enneagramperspective as an Enneagram
coach, my, my hope in using theEnneagram and teaching it is so
that people can use theEnneagram As a signpost.
And that's what you talk about.
Our addictions are signposts andnot a signpost so that you
(45:26):
condemn yourself, not a signpostthat you have more fear and
shame, a signpost that you'renot currently experiencing and
knowing the unconditional love,forgiveness, and the freedom
that we have in Christ.
And so what it does is it Likethe question, where are you?
It helps us to go, Oh, wait, Iturned away from the spring of
living water.
(45:47):
And I went and I started diggingcisterns to, to what I think is
going to fill me, which isfulfill my core longing.
And, but those haven't worked.
And God is asking me thatquestion lovingly to get me to
turn back to the spring ofliving water.
And when I, when I, you know,look back, I'm like, Oh, wow.
(46:09):
It's already been satisfied.
Like as a type nine, my presencematters so much that the God of
the universe left his throne tobe born as a human being, live
this vulnerable life perfectly.
Then to be betrayed, died andrise again, to bring me back
into relationship with him.
I don't know a better way ofsaying your presence matters
(46:32):
than that.
And I, when I attune.
To that, um, how crisissatisfied me, my whole being is
filled up like, like, you know,just drinking as much as I need
from the spring of living water.
And so like for you, you know,it'd be turning and going.
Wow, the God of the universeknows me so well that he's the
(46:53):
one that knitted and created me.
I am unique.
I am special.
I do matter in this beautiful,loving way of connectedness and
belonging.
And when, so when we're able toknow our core longing is
satisfied, that, that is thebeginning of transformation
(47:15):
within.
That is the beginning of lettinggo of addictions.
And again, it can be anything,big or small.
And the addiction itself isn'tthe thing that we have to focus
in on, it is the striving tohave the connection and the
belonging, which we alreadyhave.
It's
Chuck (47:32):
It's already
Beth (47:33):
to get in, me trying to get into this room I'm already
in, like, oh, I'm already here,I already have it.
And so I just really want to,you know, again, thank you for.
Vulnerably, um, andauthentically writing a book
about your own story of pain andheartache, but also the story of
(47:55):
going through the process ofgrieving, through the process of
your own addictions to get itright.
to work harder.
Um.
But also how God lovingly haspursued you and what That's been
like to come to this placeright.
now, which you and I both know,as we're, as we go along this,
people don't think we'vearrived.
(48:16):
Like, that's why I'm onsabbatical.
Like, Oh, I have more to workon.
Like, it is a lifelong process.
But again, the good news is thatour core longing has been
satisfied.
Um, what, what would be the lastthing that you would love for
people to know or grasp withyour book?
Chuck (48:33):
You know, I, uh, I really, uh, obviously there is
information that I think will behelpful and I think is
transformational, but I, Ireally do want people to walk
away feeling.
Invited to a reunion, to ahomecoming, um, with God.
And if, if that's all, if theyforget some of the concepts and
stuff like that, if they knowthat they, they, the party has
(48:56):
been thrown for them and God isjust waiting with open arms.
That that's pretty good news tome.
Beth (49:03):
Yeah.
Cause like it all just kind ofgo around the, the wheel.
We call it, we're going aroundthe wheel one more time, how
Christ has satisfied you.
And I hope that each of thetypes can listen like as this is
the spring of living water thatyou can drink from.
So for the type ones, you aregood because he was perfect on
your behalf.
The type two, you are loved andwanted again, so much so that he
(49:24):
died and rose again for you tobring you to him to pursue you.
Type threes.
Uh, you are loved for simplybeing you.
It's not about youraccomplishments.
In fact, he accomplishedeverything on your behalf and
gave it to you.
And then for you as a type four,we talked about you are seen and
known for exactly who you are,special and unique.
You were knitted together inyour mother's womb.
(49:47):
He knows you way more than youknow you and has full connection
and you belong to him.
The type fives are your needsare not a problem.
Type fives feel like their needsare just too much.
But we've got the God of theuniverse, your needs, not only
are not a problem, it's adelight for him to be the good
shepherd, to provide and loveyou.
(50:07):
The type six is you are safe andsecure.
And yes, we all know that day today, we don't know what's going
to happen, but ultimately we aresafe and secure and his love,
his forgiveness and what he hasaccomplished for us, which is
amazing.
Absolute security within him.
The type sevens, you will betaken care of.
Type sevens just can't, theyjust, I can't rely on anyone to
(50:29):
fulfill this insatiable desireinside.
Well, we've got the spring ofliving water.
You can have as much as you wantand absolutely be fulfilled.
And then the type seven or typeeights, you will not be
betrayed.
He was the most betrayed, and sohe understands what that's like,
therefore he will never forsakeor betray you, but he is there
(50:51):
to protect you.
And then for us nines, like Italked about, your presence
matters.
He went to the nth degree tobring you back into
relationship.
So I hope that as we wrap upthis, that you guys will go get
Chuck's book, healing what'swithin, and I love the subtitle
coming home to yourself and toGod, when you are wounded,
(51:11):
weary, and wandering, I canattest to this, that my book is
fully written up, underlinedlike crazy.
I think I went through like twopens actually.
Um, and so please go get thisbook, begin your own journey of
healing.
Discovering the wounds that arewithin, but that he is calling
you back home.
Hey, Chuck, where can peoplefind you?
(51:32):
Find the book?
When's it coming out again?
Chuck (51:35):
Pretty, pretty simple.
It's at Chuck DeGroat across thedifferent social media sites.
Uh, chuckdegroat.
net online.
And the book is, uh, you can preorder the book at, at my website
and get, um, if this comes outbefore October 8th, a little.
Bonus, um, course on spiritualabuse.
But, um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(51:56):
I hope people find their way toit and thank you, my friend.
It's so good.
It's always so good being withyou.
Beth (52:03):
Yeah.
Well, thank, thank you.
Seriously.
Thank you.
And I know you and I will havemany conversations in the future
on, you know, what God is doingin and through us, but really
appreciate you.
And I know you've got a busyfull life right now, so we're
going to let you head on to thenext thing on your to do list,
whether being a professor,launching the book, a new
counseling program, man, you,thank you so much for the work
(52:25):
that you
Chuck (52:25):
Thanks, Beth.
Beth (52:26):
Well, friend, I hope that you enjoyed I really highly
recommend this book.
It is literally for everyonewith big T traumas to little t
traumas to traumas that werehappened once to traumas that
were little paper cuts, athousand little paper cuts along
the way like me.
(52:48):
And so I highly recommend thisbook to you.
Um, don't delay, go get yourbook, um, go to chuckdegroat,
uh, com, net, uh, go find hismaterial.
Hopefully you can get it beforeit launches on October 8th to
get that special, uh, free bonuscourse that he mentioned.
(53:09):
Friends, once again for yourtime, your patience, your
thoughts, your prayers, as Iunpack my own story.
Um, it's been beautiful andreally, really hard.
Um, I think over time you'll seethat it will reap benefits for
myself and for you as well.
So keep me in your prayers.
(53:30):
Enjoy Jeff and Adam as theycontinue with the podcast and I
will see you hopefully soon.
Hey, everyone.
(00:00):
Welcome to your Enneagram coach,the podcast.
I'm Beth McCord, your Enneagramcoach.
And today I am so excited that Iget to be back into the podcast
booth for just one interview.
Um, as a lot of, you know, I'mon sabbatical and you'll get to
hear a lot of what thatsabbatical has been like for me
in this interview and what isactually going on.
(00:21):
Why am I taking a break?
I think it's healthy foreveryone to take a break from
time to time.
Um, But you'll hear that a lotof my childhood, um, uh, wounds,
uh, kind of has, have definitelycaught up to me more than I
realized.
And the coping strategies that Ihave formed over, you know,
(00:43):
gosh, I'm almost 50.
So over five decades have beenmore revealed to me than ever in
God's graciousness.
And he's helping me to unpackthem one day at a time to have
more deep and true healing.
Um, it's not easy work, but itis really, really good work.
(01:03):
And so I thank you guys so muchfor your patience as I've
stepped away for a season andallowed, um, Adam Breckenridge
and my husband, Jeff McCord tostep into the podcast booth and
guide you guys along the way.
They're loving it.
And I hope that you are too.
Well, today, The reason I'mstepping back into the podcast
(01:24):
booth is because I'm going tointerview Chuck DeGrowth, who is
an author, um, a professor, acounselor, and so many other
things, a pastor, because he haswritten a new book that's coming
out on October 2nd.
And I'll hold it up here so thatthose that are on the YouTube,
uh, watching this, you can seeit, Healing What's Within.
(01:47):
Now I love the subtitle ofHealing What's Within is coming
home to yourself and to God whenyou're wounded, weary, and
wandering.
This just came at such a timelytime.
moment for me.
Um, I have had the privilege ofgetting an advanced reader copy
(02:07):
because as you heard, it comesout October 8th.
Um, and it literally could nothave come to me at a better
time.
It came right as I started mysabbatical.
And it has helped me tounderstand in a more full way
the things that I Um, thestruggles, the hurts, the pains
(02:30):
that I had growing up that Ididn't even know or realize
because I really had, you know,for all intents and purposes,
what people would see is thisreally happy, loving family.
But there were a thousand littlepaper cuts along the way that I
didn't realize were Impacting myeveryday life, my thought
(02:50):
processes, my coping styles in away that was actually hindering
and sabotaging my personal lifeand my relationships and my work
life.
Not so much in as big overt waysas maybe for some, but for me in
little ways that added up overfive decades and, uh, in July, I
(03:11):
got shingles.
And I'm pretty young to getshingles.
And so it was my body's way ofsaying, hello, I really need you
to go within to focus and toheal.
And so that's why I've takenthis time to do my own inner
work, even on a deeper level,obviously I've done a lot of
inner work over the years, but Ithink God reveals to us bits and
(03:33):
pieces graciously, instead ofone full swoop.
Now, of course.
I would rather learn and getover it and go on with my life,
but God has us going about itone step at a time, because
that's what we can handle.
And he's gracious in doing that.
So part of that, my healing pathhas been Chuck's book, Healing
What's Within.
And so today you're going to geta fuller glimpse of what that
(03:57):
book is about, why he wrote itand how it has impacted me and
my personal story.
So let me just tell you again,Chuck DeGroat is not only a
personal friend, but he is aprofessor of pastoral care and
Christian spirituality atWestern Theological Seminary in
Holland, Michigan, where he alsoserves as the founding executive
(04:17):
director of the clinical mentalhealth counseling program.
Now he's also a licensedtherapist, spiritual director.
author, as you can see, um, aretreat leader, speaker, and
faculty member with the SoulCare Institute.
Now, as a therapist, hespecializes in navigating issues
of abuse and trauma, pastoraland leadership health, and doubt
(04:41):
and dark nights of the soul thatwe all journey through.
And so he trains clergy inhandling these issues of abuse
and trauma, uh, conducts pastorand conduct.
Um, church planter assessments,and then he facilitates church
consultations in investigationsof abuse that have happened.
So before we transition intothis timeframe, I just want you
(05:05):
to know that Chuck is also goingto reveal part of his story,
which is really in this book andit's beautifully laid out, um,
of his time, um, gettingwounded, um, in a church hurt
church.
Um, firing that he experienced,but then also his journey
through healing, um, along theway.
Now he is married to his wife,Sarah, and they have two
(05:28):
beautiful adult daughters.
And without further ado, let meget into my time that I
absolutely loved with ChuckDeGroat.
Okay.
So Chuck, your book could nothave come at a better time for
me.
I mean, it's literally theperfect timing because right now
I'm actually in sabbatical, asyou know, and I'm sure some of
our listeners know.
(05:49):
Um, and, um, It has helped me tounderstand and speak to what's
going on with me, which ishealing what's in, within.
Uh, so what I've been learning,uh, so far and how you
beautifully unpack things isthat the pain we carry is not
just about what happened to us,but what happened within us
(06:11):
after our trauma or heartache.
Um, And it's about thedisconnection that forms within
us and how we often choose tocope in isolation.
So as just people in general,we're trying to navigate life.
We tend to suppress ouremotions.
We're ignoring our core needs,our, pain.
(06:33):
Um, we try to help with theseunhelpful coping styles that we
have.
And when we don't address theroot, which is disconnection,
our relationships withourselves, others, and God begin
to unrode.
And this is all in kind of yourintroduction.
So this, this disconnection canthen turn into trauma.
(06:54):
Because as you explain, um, thatIt's what is ignored or
misunderstood that actuallycauses the suffering.
So what I would love, um, youknow, or actually what I love
about your approach is how youtake us back to the beginning
and Genesis in the story.
And what you do is you remindus.
(07:14):
That God has already laid out apath for healing and instead of,
you know, being left to copealone, God lovingly meets us in
our pain and shame, asking threespecific questions.
And these questions, you know,are asked with compassion and
curiosity, which you also talkabout how we usually think the
(07:35):
opposite, he's coming at us witha stern fist, but that we get to
listen.
And to hear him in a whole newway and to abide in his care.
So I.
would love, you know, just forus to kind of see that as a full
picture, that God is not angry,but he's actually that
empathetic witness that we needto walk with us in our
(07:57):
suffering.
And as you write, that trauma isnot what happens to us, but what
we hold inside, with the absenceof an empathetic witness.
And so God being that infinite,kind, empathetic witness.
He, as you describe our, he'sasking us to reconnect with him
(08:18):
so that we can heal our deepestwounds.
So before we dive into the threeparts of the book, which are the
three questions, um, which thefirst is God asks Adam and Eve,
where are you?
And then the second, who toldyou?
And then the third, um, have youeaten from the tree?
I'd love to start by asking.
(08:39):
Okay.
So what inspired you to writethis book and what was the
journey that influenced why youwrote this book?
Chuck (08:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
First of all, you justarticulated that so much better
than I do.
So can, can we, can we do thistogether from now on?
Beth (08:58):
I would love to, I, I, I seriously, if you saw my book
and how much it's under, like ifpeople don't go get this book,
like right now, like stop therecording and go get it.
You're missing out.
Chuck (09:09):
well, I mean, you know, a little bit of my story, but, uh,
I was fired by a church in 2003after serving for six years and
it was really painful and itfelt like, uh, an injustice.
And when those kinds of thingshappen, you know, it's not just
days or weeks, it's months andyears where you, you think about
(09:29):
it, you stew, you simmer, youthink about ways of getting the
justice that you, that you want.
Um, About all the people whodidn't step up and say something
on your behalf, all the things,you know, and I, uh, I In the
really in the months and yearsafter that happened.
Um, I, I was a therapist so Ishould have known better.
(09:50):
That's my caveat, but I put myhead down and charged ahead and
at tremendous cost to my bodyand soul.
What's, what's fascinating is inthose years after I did some
writing.
That I think turned out to behalfway decent.
My first book, I think, is agood book.
I think I led good retreats andguided people into good places
(10:14):
in their lives, but all thewhile kind of ignoring what was
simmering within me.
Um, and now I was going totherapy and I was talking about
my story, so to speak, but I wasmissing.
the, that traumatic impact thatyou just hinted at, right?
I was missing what was simmeringwithin and the dysregulation
(10:36):
within me, a nervous system outof whack, so to speak, to put it
in lay person's terms.
Right.
And so I, I landed in a hospitalin Mexico in 2012.
Um, my body just essentiallystarted to give out longer story
to that.
That's what really shifted me toattend in a new way.
(10:58):
To what was happening withinit's not to say you ignore what
happened to you not at all butwe do have to Shift our
attention at some point to thattraumatic imprint within
Beth (11:10):
yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And the reason why this was.
I have been blessed to get anadvanced reader copy.
And so I know that it's not evenout yet.
Um, uh, and so it's coming outin october right.
Chuck (11:25):
Yeah.
october 8th.
Yeah
Beth (11:26):
Okay.
Um, that's what I was going tosay that, but I was like, Oh, I
don't want to say the wrongdate.
Um, but literally it's been sobeneficial because, um, I have
lived with, uh, You know, innertrauma from childhood, and like
you said, it's like a thousandlittle paper cuts, you know,
along the way that it's justhard to see that, you know, Oh,
(11:48):
that's what happened to me andthat's why I have this distorted
thinking and, and you, you know,and I, I've coped well, you
know, I, I, I've learned a ton.
I've grown, I've known there'ssomething wrong.
It's like God has just unveiledbits and pieces over time that I
could handle in that moment,like his disgraciousness.
(12:09):
Um, because like you said, I'man Enneagram coach.
I, of course I know I people,please.
Of course.
Um, I know I knew a lot and, andhealed from certain things, but
I took the sabbatical because Icould see there were so much
more within that needed to behealed and my story, similar to
your story this summer, I gotshingles.
(12:32):
And I'd already felt just burntout and, you know, like I was
just showing me like, Hey, youreally have got to stop and go
inward.
And the last straw was my body,you know, at such a young age
going, Hello.
Chuck (12:46):
Yes.
Beth (12:48):
you know, to, in his, you know, his graciousness to really
wake me up and those around methat, oh, I'm actually suffering
more than I realized because itwas a thousand paper cuts versus
some major huge trauma that isnoticeable.
So anyway, for me, this has justbeen such a helpful book.
Well, um, so right now, youknow, in the sabbatical season,
(13:11):
I'm focusing on those woundsthat came from my childhood
experience.
But what I've noticed is that itshapes such distorted thinking
and.
And it has impacted myrelationships in work.
Now your book, especially onchapter or part one, helped me
to really see how disconnected Ihave been, not just from others,
(13:36):
but really from my own heart andactually what's true, like
reality.
And I didn't even realize howmuch fear, shame, and unresolved
grief I have experienced.
What I was having and what wasreally driving the distorted
thinking, which kept meisolated.
Now, when I say isolated, and Iknow that you would say this
(13:56):
too, I mean, Yes part, part ofit as a nine.
Yep.
I'm going to withdraw and I'mgoing to isolate, but it was
more an isolation of not beingfully honest with myself and
others of the pain that waswithin, which fueled.
My coping strategies and so likemany I found myself, you know,
(14:17):
just using these strategies toavoid pain You know the things
that I was using were goingalong, you know to get along
focusing on others to avoidconflict You know all the nine
Enneagram types have their ownlittle flavor of
Chuck (14:32):
Yeah.
Beth (14:33):
But instead of finding that connection the joy that I
was trying to get through thosestrategies I actually felt more
isolated and so I relate to thelonging that you talk about in
Eden that like you long to goback to eat.
Like there's something there.
And mine was, I just want peaceand harmony and connection and
(14:55):
everyone to be happy.
Um, Um, but I couldn't find it.
And so your experience that youtalk about in the first part of
the book about driving acrossthe Golden Gate Bridge with the
fog and you heard God's gentlewhisper, where are you?
The, well, that really stuckwith me and it reminded me, you
(15:15):
know, of God's, that God'squestion is not one that is of
condemnation, but it is a lovinginvitation to reconnect with him
and ourselves.
So.
Can you kind of, you know, justWalk us through and talk us
through that question of whereare you as an invitation to pay
(15:35):
actually attention to the wayswe've strayed these coping
strategies and distortedthinking, because I would love
to hear.
I think so many of us think thatGod is, again, coming with
sternness and harshness, but howit's actually loving and so we
get to courageously confrontthese patterns because we know
that we are deeply loved andcherished.
(15:57):
So unpack that first question.
Where are you?
Chuck (16:00):
Yeah.
God is actually walking in thegarden in the cool of the day,
which is to say, you know, inthe late afternoon, probably
early evening when the sun wasgoing down, think of, you don't
want to take a walk in theMiddle East, you know, at noon.
And, you know, the hint in thetext is that this is when God
and Adam and Eve would havetaken their walks together.
(16:22):
And now God is walking, uh,calling out, where are you?
Like, this is.
This is the time we go on walkstogether.
I missed you, uh, which to meis, is such a, a, a question of
kindness and, and that wordwhere, by the way, um, uh,
someone came to me, uh, after,and I don't think this made the
(16:42):
book, but someone came to meafter a conference that I led on
this and said, do you know thatthat word where in the Hebrew is
the first word of the book oflamentations?
And it's a word of heartbreak.
It's a, uh, A word of lament, aword of longing, right?
And so at the very beginning,God's heart is breaking for us
because God misses us and thatwhere are you, uh, recognizes
(17:06):
that we have strayed east ofEden, far from God.
On on one level, and I think forme, it became an important
question to ask myself, uh,every morning, multiple times
throughout the day, because thereality is, is almost
immediately after I wake up, I'meast of Eden.
I am off to the races.
(17:27):
My mind starts going.
I'm already thinking about myday and what there is to do, or
I'm thinking about some newsstory or some sports story or
something, so I'm on my phonechecking those stories out, and
I've strayed far from myself.
And like you, we're helpers.
We engage people, we producethings that we hope will be
(17:47):
helpful to people, and we can beinattentive to our own needs.
in the process.
That's why we take sabbaticals.
I'll take mine next fall.
And, and so, uh, where are youhelps you to sort of retune to
listen to the kind whisper ofGod.
I miss you come back.
And for me, there's a certaingrounding that begins to take
(18:09):
place when I, When I hear thatquestion, like, okay, I can come
back into my body.
Now I can be present to what'sgoing on inside of me.
Uh, yesterday I I've beenspeaking over the weekend in
Chattanooga and, uh, came homeand I felt really good on
Monday.
And then I woke up yesterday andI felt like I get.
(18:31):
My window of tolerance wasreally small and I had a full
day and I knew in asking thatquestion that I had to make some
choices yesterday to, uh, justto sort of take care of myself.
Um, and I did throughout theday.
Step back from a couple ofdifferent things and
disappointed a couple of peoplein the process, but needed to do
(18:54):
that.
Beth (18:55):
Yeah.
man, that is so good.
And, you know, I think the, thequestion, where are you?
What I love how you paint alsoin the book is how we've grown
up, I would say in our probablyWestern Christian culture that,
um, everything is supposed to berosy and great.
And when it's not.
(19:15):
Um, you know, God is angry withus and I love that picture that
you have and I feel like that'ssuch a key element to beginning
the process to go within becauseif we don't have, if we don't
know that we belong to himbecause of what he's done for
us, then we can't fullyunderstand that he is that
(19:38):
empathetic witness.
Can you talk about theempathetic witness and trauma?
Chuck (19:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so I begin with this quotefrom Gabor Mate, who's become
quite popular.
retired physician who's writtena lot on trauma, uh, where he
says something to the effect istrauma is not what happens to
you, but what happens inside inthe absence of an empathetic or
compassionate witness.
And that really struck me thefirst time I came across that,
(20:03):
that idea, um, that, thatsomehow that stress and
overwhelm grows, uh, when we'realone.
And, uh, that's become such animportant piece.
for me personally, because, uh,the reality is, is after my
firing in 2003, I put my headdown and, and not only did I not
(20:26):
let people in, um, surprisingly,people just didn't ask.
They saw me as the kind ofperson, maybe, Some people see
you like this, the kind ofperson who's supposed to be put
together, that's supposed totake care of others.
And, um, because I, uh, did dowhat I needed to do to kind of
make a living in the months andyears after, people even called
(20:48):
me resilient.
Um, by the way, that's not whatresilience is.
Resilience is not try harder.
Resilience is not doggeddetermination.
Um, and so I needed to begin tolet people into what was going
on within me.
And I think the kindness ofGenesis chapter three is that's
where God begins.
Like God is right there withyou, uh, in, in a way that, um,
(21:13):
offers you kindness andcompassion and curiosity.
Now I say that out loud and Irecognize that some people
aren't there and their woundsactually came in the context of
a church or, Um, in the presenceof a pastor and it's like, don't
eat, like, I don't want to gothere.
And what I'd say is, uh, thendon't go there.
(21:33):
Uh, but I've sat with peopleover the course of time.
There are stories that I, I tellof, of sitting with people who
couldn't go there.
But after two or three years ofmy compassionate presence, there
was a sense of, I remember one,you know, One woman saying to
me, you know, that, that oldbenediction that I remember from
church, may the Lord make hisface to shine upon you.
(21:56):
I think I'm beginning to believeit because your face has shined
upon me over these last threeyears.
Right.
And so it's connection, it'spresence that begins to, um, to,
to offer us the possibility ofreunion with ourselves, with one
another and with God.
Beth (22:13):
Yeah.
So moving into part two of thebook, um, where, you know, we,
we talk about who told you, youknow?
Um, and again, like, I mean, Ijust naturally, when I, when I
hear these questions, Iliterally kind of cringe like,
Oh, he's mad at me.
You know, like, like it's justthe way we've kind of been
brought up and also just likeour natural human ways of
(22:37):
thinking and just sort of.
thinking.
So, um, but you ask us to payattention to these voices, this
distorted thinking, these copingstrategies that we've adopted
throughout the years.
Um, and thinking that they'reprotecting us all along, but
really instead they're creatingthis isolation and even more
(22:57):
pain with fear right with it.
So, um, what really struck withme is how you described trauma,
um, you know, as Um, not, notbeing seen or known by God yet
fully seen and know, but that hefully sees and knows us.
So he invites us to be friend,the painful parts within us.
(23:20):
Oh, that's so hard.
And I loved in the book, how youtalk about, it's a great way of,
you know, of thinking about it.
Cause you talk about sayinghello to these parts of us that
are in pain, like our woundedchild and such.
Um, and I'd love for you toexplain like what that means and
how people, um, can greet thesekinds of hidden parts that are
(23:42):
within us with this compassion,this kindness in a whole new
way.
So like, what does say hello
Chuck (23:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
That's, that's a chapter that,uh, that I integrated the movie
Inside Out into before I knewthat there was going to be an
Inside Out 2 that came up.
So, I guess it was timely.
Um, I wish I would have knownabout the second movie, but
it's, uh, you know, if you'veseen the movie or movies, Um,
you, you know that there's a lotmore going on you than meets the
(24:11):
eye, right?
And I often say that you don'thave a story, you have stories,
plural.
Um, and there's, there's storieswithin you that parts of you
hold that, um, are important topay attention to.
And that often begins in thepresent moment.
Oftentimes when we talk aboutour stories, we talk about it in
the abstract, about the thingsthat happen to us.
And we can be very disconnectedas we do that.
(24:34):
But it can begin by simplypaying attention.
So, you know, for instance,yesterday I told you I woke up,
I was in, at the smaller windowof tolerance and I, I'm at home
today, but I often go to, uh,the seminary where I teach, uh,
to go to work.
And I walked in and there was abig event happening and I felt
(24:56):
almost immediately, I felt mysocial anxiety just skyrocket.
And, uh, Uh, there's there's oneof those things that people
might not think about folks likeyou or me that there are these
things that happen within us orthat we get anxiety in these
particular kinds of ways.
Well, I knew that I had to makea choice to, uh, go down to my
(25:17):
office and sort of hibernate fora little bit.
Um, and it was an importantchoice.
Um, it was kind of disappointingperhaps to people who, uh,
expected to see me at thisparticular event.
Uh, but what I did was I wentinto my office and this gets at
that saying hello piece.
I realized that, uh, I wasfeeling some, some shame, some
(25:40):
insecurity.
And as I.
As I paid attention, as I sortof greeted that emotion within
me that was welling up and Icould feel it in my, my chest
and my throat, my face, um, itwas almost as if I felt myself
back at my, my, it was probablyfive or six years old at a
birthday party where all thekids were looking at me and
(26:03):
singing happy birthday, whichfor some kids would be like,
Yay.
I'm in the spotlight.
And for me, it was my, maybe myfirst ever panic attack.
And, um, there I was in thatspace in my office, not up at
the event that Parts of me feltlike I should have been at, but
down in my office, attending towhat was happening within paying
(26:24):
attention to this voice.
Now there's another voice thatpopped up and said, you should
be upstairs right now.
Um, what, what a disappointment,you know, you should be better
than this.
You should be over this.
You started this journey whenyou were 27 and you're 54 now.
And you,
Beth (26:41):
Right.
Chuck (26:42):
and I, I said, hello, I said, wow, you're, you're angry
this morning.
Can we talk?
And so now I had two parts of methat I was sort of, uh, talking
to, you know, and that, forpeople who are listening right
now, um, they might think Chuckis schizophrenic, like what's
happening here right now, what,who has Beth invited onto the
(27:03):
podcast, but, uh, it's simply amatter of beginning to pay
attention to those voices withinthose parts of us that have a
story to tell.
Um, have an emotion that theywant to share with us.
Something's going on within.
that we often ignore.
Beth (27:20):
Yeah.
And it's, as you said, that thefirst thing that came up to me
is, can we, as, uh, the belovedchild, the, the true self, can
we be that empathetic witness tothose parts of us?
Is that kind of
Chuck (27:36):
Yeah.
I think, I think that's right.
And I think, uh, what'sbeautiful about that is, is
that, um, you know, when we areconnected in, um, most deeply,
right?
Like when we feel grounded, whenwe feel it, as I talk about in
the book at home in ourselves,uh, we discover that God is
right there with us because Godhas taken up residence.
(27:57):
within by the spirit, right?
And so the spirit is bearingwitness.
We're bearing witness.
Um, I, uh, I tell the story inthere, this whole idea of saying
hello comes from a, uh, poet anda theologian named Padre
Gotuama.
And he, he, uh, he says, youknow, hello in Aramaic is
Shalom.
It's peace be with you.
And so in a sense, Uh, I canhear Jesus whispering within
(28:22):
peace, be with you to that loudinner critic who says, no, you
should be upstairs right now.
You should push through this.
Uh, he was loud for a lot ofyears of my life.
You know, I say peace, be withyou.
It's okay.
Thank you for reminding me of myresponsibilities.
And I'll take that intoconsideration.
(28:42):
It's sort of like if you havekids, you know, and your kids
are sitting around the table andyou know, the one kid is kind of
shy and pulling away and theother kid is yelling and angry
and judgmental and it's like,peace be with you.
And you're talking to this onekid a little differently than
you're talking to this otherkid.
You know, we, uh, we offer aword of peace and that word of
peace is, uh, a word that Jesusoffers from within too.
Beth (29:04):
Yeah.
And as you were talking aboutthat and the whole inside out,
and I know like you said, youdidn't write this book even
knowing Inside Out 2 was comingand what that would even entail,
but just being that empatheticwitness, um, even for ourselves,
these parts that are hurting,um, like I was watching the
(29:25):
movie, sorry, spoiler alert, youknow, for anyone that hasn't
seen it, maybe fast forward.
You know, I'm watching the movieand it, you know, it's just so
beautiful and so stirring.
But I hadn't like cried yet, youknow, but I was just sitting
there and as anxiety, uh, flewout of her own storm, she looked
(29:45):
at Joy and just said, I was justtrying to help and And I lost it
and I'm like in the theater andI'm trying so hard not to ugly
cry, not because the ugly cryingis bad, but you know, everyone
else is trying to enjoy themovie, you know, and I could
have just been sobbing loudly.
And it, there's a part of methat is saying I've, I'm trying
(30:08):
really hard and I'm, I'm tryingto.
And to prevent the pain thatwe've had in the past now.
And I can see that my waysaren't actually helping us and
I'm sorry.
And I've tried.
And then I get to be theempathetic witness and, and love
that part of me.
Like you have tried really hardand I'm so thankful for the work
(30:32):
you have done on my behalf, butit isn't helping us.
And so we need a new way andthat's really what this.
Um, sabbatical season, you know,is all about is, is diving into
those distorted thinking, copingstrategies, which really gets us
into, and man, there's so muchin each of these parts that I
would love to unpack with you,but we're going to get into part
(30:56):
three because this gets into,did you eat from the tree?
And once again, when I hearthat, I first hear it with a
sense, a tinge of wrath or angerinstead of.
Hey, did you eat from the tree?
And the chapter I kind of wantto focus on just, and all of
part three, but was the chapteron addiction, um, and grace,
(31:19):
which was chapter seven.
Now addiction and grace, youknow, was part three.
particularly eye opening for me.
And it helped me to see thataddiction isn't just these big,
obvious things that we associatewith, you know, like substances
and behaviors that aredestroying our lives and others,
but that all of us experience ona deeper level, this longing for
(31:43):
union and connection andcommunion and belonging.
And so what really struck withme is how you described.
That we often believe the liethat we can somehow satisfy this
longing we have of union andcommunion in our own terms.
And you beautifully use Jeremiah2, 13 where it says we have dug
(32:04):
our own cisterns, brokencisterns, which are like vases
or cups or a well, brokencisterns that can't hold water.
But Right.
next to us the whole time is thespring of living water.
God's full, loving, providingpresence that's within us.
And so what I've recognized forme is like, have you eaten from
the tree?
(32:24):
As you kind of worded it in, um,the, the chapter is, um, a
chemical cocktail.
So my chemical cocktail, sowhat, what gives me, uh,
dopamine or all the other thingsthat make you feel good, or at
least what we think feels goodin the moment, is people
pleasing, right.
As a type nine.
Okay.
If I just make everyone happy,if I don't disrupt the waters,
(32:47):
if I just keep to myself, thenwe're good.
Um, I'll feel at ease and I'llfeel like I belong.
And as you highlight, thesestrategies don't work and they
keep us actually isolated and weneed Connection.
the, like you said, theantithesis to addiction is
Chuck (33:05):
Connection.
Yeah.
Beth (33:06):
And so unpack for us what this means.
Have you eaten from the tree?
Hmm.
Chuck (33:13):
It's, uh, you and I live the same life apparently because
I've heard, heard thesequestions as angry and, and, um,
and dismissive.
And, you know, this thirdquestion was the toughest one
for me.
And I remember leading a retreata number of years ago, asking
God, what, what are you gettingat there?
You know, because the first twoare open ended questions.
And then this third one is likea yes, no, you know, yeah.
(33:35):
And what I heard was, where haveyou taken your hunger and
thirst?
Um, how have you been coping?
And each of us can answer that,um, in some way or another.
Um, I think I, I tell this storyin there, um, real quick.
Uh, I often say my favorite 16thcentury Saint is St.
Teresa of Avila.
Um, that surprises peoplebecause they'll think John
(33:57):
Calvin or Martin Luther orsomeone like that.
But, um, this incredible womanwho lived in, in Spain.
A mystic who wrote the interiorcastle.
And, um, she tells the story ofwalking along one day and the
Spanish countryside and seeingthese Roman aqueducts that would
carry water.
That was the way of getting thewater you needed back in the
day.
And by then these aqueducts wereout of date by the 16th century,
(34:21):
they were no longer being used.
They were these marvels ofengineering that didn't work
anymore.
And she saw her life in thatimage.
Um, I had erected theseaqueducts that I thought would
give me.
what I needed, and they couldn'tpossibly do that.
And that's when she discoveredthat Jesus was the spring of
(34:41):
living water, offering hereverything she needed.
Sort of like the father says tothe older brother, you were
always with me and everything Ihave is yours, right?
Um, addiction is our way oftrying to solve a problem.
Um, that isn't in some ways,even really a problem if Jesus
is already the spring of livingwater within us, right?
(35:02):
But it's a way of coping, and itbegan in the garden with Adam
and Eve grasping from the tree,um, in the midst of their own
big question.
serpent who slithers up to themand says, Did God really say in
the midst of their own sense ofmaybe we're missing something?
Maybe God's holding out on us.
Maybe God isn't really good.
(35:23):
We have those very samequestions, and we attempt to
meet our own needs in all kindsof different ways.
And we, as you sort of rightlypoint to, we talk about the big
addictions often.
Um, but there are the smallerones.
And what I often say is what,um, where do you go for
soothing?
You know, how, how do you cope?
Where, uh, where does yourenergy go?
(35:45):
Um, I, I told the story lastweekend when I was speaking of
like years ago, I was watchingthe show that everyone else in
America was watching and, uh,was on HBO max.
And, uh, I, I got ready for theshow one late one night and, uh,
You know, had my drink in mypopcorn or whatever I had, you
know, how you get anticipatethese things, right?
(36:05):
Whether it's a show or a ballgame or whatever it might be,
and an error code came up and,you know, like I was personally
incensed that, um, you know,that HBO max would do this to
me.
I was, Personally, deeplyoffended, you know, and I went
online and I saw that otherpeople had taken offense to, but
you know, when that error codewent away, my nervous system
(36:27):
soothed and I realized, oh,well, there it is, you know, it
may not be some big, badaddiction, you know, that we
talked about, but it's somethingthat I'm taking my heart to.
Now, I didn't stop watching theshow, but it's an invitation to
pay attention to To our variousways of soothing our various
selves, you know, and, and, uh,an invitation by God to come
(36:51):
back, uh, to the source, theliving water.
Yeah,
Beth (36:56):
yeah, And, and the reason why I love you using that verse,
which is so impactful for me isJeff and I use Jeremiah 2.
13 all the time in our teachingbecause the Enneagram is Um,
isn't the tool, obviously God'sword is the tool, but what the
Enneagram does is it's kind oflike a map, a cheat sheet, a
guide, you know, tounderstanding our particular
(37:19):
ways a little bit quicker sothat we can unpack, um, our
story with clear, more clarityand understanding.
Um, because we all, and we talkabout all nine types have four
core motivations.
We have a core fear, what we'rerunning away from, a core
desire, what like, Oh, if I justget this life will be perfect.
(37:39):
We have a core weakness.
Other teachers call it thepassion or the deadly sin, and
that's tripping us up all thetime.
And then we have a core longing,a message our heart longs to
hear and experience.
And we talk about how we areconstantly.
Trying to satisfy this core
Chuck (37:55):
yeah,
Beth (37:56):
through our relationships, our work, you know, status,
image, um, you know, addictions,like everything is focusing on
this core longing and each ofthe nine types have a purpose.
Um, and so there's this oneparticular core longing.
Obviously we all have lots oflongings, but there's this one
that really is at the forefront.
(38:17):
And so, you know, we're, we'resitting there, you know, in life
and we've got the spring next tous, but kind of ignore it,
right?
Like, you know, yeah, I don'tknow.
And we kind of turn and weforget that it's even there,
it's right there.
And we start digging cistronsand think of it like, A pool,
you know, like you, youactually, it's really funny,
Jeff, growing up in Dallas, himand his friend were so hot one
(38:39):
day, they thought they could diga pool in the backyard.
And so they attempted, attemptedthis.
And so, you know, they may havegotten like four feet by four
feet, let's
Chuck (38:49):
brilliant.
Wow.
Beth (38:51):
three inches, five inches deep, who knows?
And it's like, okay, so let'sjust pour water into it.
Let's go for it.
Uh, We all know what happens,right?
It just dissipates.
And so what happens with ourcore longing, you know, my core
longing is to hear.
Your presence matters to likeknow that I have significance
belonging you as a type one.
(39:12):
It's to hear you are good Typetwos.
I'll just go ahead go aroundbecause everyone's gonna be like
what's mine?
Type twos is to hear that yourneeds are not a problem type
three is that you are I'm sorryType 2 is, it's not that, even
though that's close to it, isyou are loved and wanted.
Type 3 is you are loved andwanted for simply being you.
(39:34):
It's not about status, um, it'sabout just being you.
Type 4 is you are loved andwanted, uh, just for who you
are, special and unique andknown.
And then type 5, your needs arenot a problem.
Type 6, you are safe and secure.
Type 7 is you will be taken careof.
And type eights is you will notbe betrayed and type nine, just
(39:58):
one more time, uh, your presencematters.
And so we're constantly diggingcisterns because we've forgotten
forsaken the spring of livingwater.
And it's like, Oh, like for me,Oh, well, if I just make this
person happy, or if I just keepthis relationship at peace, if I
just this, this, this, and this,then I'll be okay when actuality
(40:20):
Christ has already satisfied ourcore longing.
And that's where we get to turnto the spring and just drink it
up fully.
And so can you kind of paint apicture of the, kind of the end
of the book, kind of wrapping itup, you talk about a holy
hunger.
Can you just kind of let us geta glimpse of what that's like?
Chuck (40:43):
Yeah.
I, uh, again, you, you justarticulated it really
beautifully and, um, I love thatyou can sort of go around the
Enneagram and name some of thosecore longings.
And I suspect listeners arelike, yeah.
Um, I, I think that, and by theway, I'm a four.
So, um,
Beth (41:04):
that's so fun.
Did you, did you, I knew that.
Did you at one time way
Chuck (41:09):
Oh, I did.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
Um,
Beth (41:12):
I'm really good at remembering what people say
their type is for some reason.
That's just like,
Chuck (41:17):
this.
The very short story is I, Iwas, I became acquainted with
the Enneagram in the latenineties and I started as a four
and that's where I immediatelysort of identified myself, but
someone who is a supposed expertin the Enneagram typed me as a
one back in 2008 and I, I sortof tried that on for size for
about four or five years.
(41:37):
And.
Beth (41:38):
Okay.
Chuck (41:38):
said this isn't it.
Um, and I found my way back to.
Beth (41:42):
I, you know, cause in my mind I was going back and forth
cause I think I knew that story,but okay.
So anyway, so type four, you areseen in love for exactly who you
are special and unique is yourcore longing.
Chuck (41:54):
Yeah.
And when you said that just now,like, and I can feel it, I tears
come up, like, like, that'sjust, they're there right now.
And, um, there's such a hungerfor that love, you know, that of
course is connected to my ownstory and, uh, some of, some of
my own, uh, death by a thousandcuts, as we talked about a
(42:15):
little earlier, you know, someof the.
Early attachment and relationalmisses.
Um, but I think what's sobeautiful is that what I what I
do, you know, this, uh, thatquestion, that third question,
um, anticipates the questionthat Jesus asks more than any
other in the gospels.
And that's a question of.
(42:36):
What do you long for?
What are you hungry for?
What are you thirsty for?
What do you want?
And I think that's so beautifulthat, here again, Jesus, uh,
just, just as God shows up inGenesis chapter 3, Jesus doesn't
show up with condemnation,doesn't show up with a closed
ended question, you know, butwith this open ended, what do
(42:56):
you most deeply hunger for?
What are you most deeply thirstfor?
And the reality is, is that, Youknow, as we were just talking
about those, those temporarycells just don't do it for you.
And if you've ever beenaddicted, whether it's
something, you know, the reallybig sins that the church
identifies or, or the thingsthat you're sort of just kind of
(43:16):
wondering, I wonder, you know,there's two or three glasses of
wine every night or that showthat, you know, that I, I just
don't stop, whatever it mightbe.
Um, as we begin to identifythese things and ask what our
hearts most.
deeply long for.
That's where people begin toexperience a greater
expansiveness because addictionconstricts.
(43:39):
And you know, no, no one'sreally satisfied with those ways
of coping.
But as you begin to connect toyour deepest desires, and this
is where your work is so helpfulin pointing people to those, you
know, unique longings of, of theEnneagram types.
I can say Okay, I need, I needto be loved.
I need to belong.
(43:59):
I need to be known.
Um, I need to live with acertain authenticity.
Those are really core to who Iam.
And absent that, my life isgoing to feel really
constricted, you know?
And so how do I get those corelongings met?
Um, how do, how does that informmy way of praying, you know?
And, and, um, how does thatchange my way of going about my
(44:22):
day?
And so I'm To go back to thebeginning.
We may start our day with, whereare you?
And notice that we're alreadybeing pulled out to see, you
know, and we can return and thereality is God is right there
smiling with open arms waitingfor the reunion and that's the
good news.
Beth (44:42):
Yeah, And, and you paint in the, in that chapter, the
picture of the prodigal son, andyou already mentioned the older
son, like I, you know, you'vehad everything here, but then
the prodigal son, he's runningto him and lavishes him with
love versus the condemnation andshame that we all think we're
like, quote unquote, do.
And I.
(45:04):
He.
He.
I just love that.
And so I think from an Enneagramperspective as an Enneagram
coach, my, my hope in using theEnneagram and teaching it is so
that people can use theEnneagram As a signpost.
And that's what you talk about.
Our addictions are signposts andnot a signpost so that you
(45:26):
condemn yourself, not a signpostthat you have more fear and
shame, a signpost that you'renot currently experiencing and
knowing the unconditional love,forgiveness, and the freedom
that we have in Christ.
And so what it does is it Likethe question, where are you?
It helps us to go, Oh, wait, Iturned away from the spring of
living water.
(45:47):
And I went and I started diggingcisterns to, to what I think is
going to fill me, which isfulfill my core longing.
And, but those haven't worked.
And God is asking me thatquestion lovingly to get me to
turn back to the spring ofliving water.
And when I, when I, you know,look back, I'm like, Oh, wow.
(46:09):
It's already been satisfied.
Like as a type nine, my presencematters so much that the God of
the universe left his throne tobe born as a human being, live
this vulnerable life perfectly.
Then to be betrayed, died andrise again, to bring me back
into relationship with him.
I don't know a better way ofsaying your presence matters
(46:32):
than that.
And I, when I attune.
To that, um, how crisissatisfied me, my whole being is
filled up like, like, you know,just drinking as much as I need
from the spring of living water.
And so like for you, you know,it'd be turning and going.
Wow, the God of the universeknows me so well that he's the
(46:53):
one that knitted and created me.
I am unique.
I am special.
I do matter in this beautiful,loving way of connectedness and
belonging.
And when, so when we're able toknow our core longing is
satisfied, that, that is thebeginning of transformation
(47:15):
within.
That is the beginning of lettinggo of addictions.
And again, it can be anything,big or small.
And the addiction itself isn'tthe thing that we have to focus
in on, it is the striving tohave the connection and the
belonging, which we alreadyhave.
It's
Chuck (47:32):
It's already
Beth (47:33):
to get in, me trying to get into this room I'm already
in, like, oh, I'm already here,I already have it.
And so I just really want to,you know, again, thank you for.
Vulnerably, um, andauthentically writing a book
about your own story of pain andheartache, but also the story of
(47:55):
going through the process ofgrieving, through the process of
your own addictions to get itright.
to work harder.
Um.
But also how God lovingly haspursued you and what That's been
like to come to this placeright.
now, which you and I both know,as we're, as we go along this,
people don't think we'vearrived.
(48:16):
Like, that's why I'm onsabbatical.
Like, Oh, I have more to workon.
Like, it is a lifelong process.
But again, the good news is thatour core longing has been
satisfied.
Um, what, what would be the lastthing that you would love for
people to know or grasp withyour book?
Chuck (48:33):
You know, I, uh, I really, uh, obviously there is
information that I think will behelpful and I think is
transformational, but I, Ireally do want people to walk
away feeling.
Invited to a reunion, to ahomecoming, um, with God.
And if, if that's all, if theyforget some of the concepts and
stuff like that, if they knowthat they, they, the party has
(48:56):
been thrown for them and God isjust waiting with open arms.
That that's pretty good news tome.
Beth (49:03):
Yeah.
Cause like it all just kind ofgo around the, the wheel.
We call it, we're going aroundthe wheel one more time, how
Christ has satisfied you.
And I hope that each of thetypes can listen like as this is
the spring of living water thatyou can drink from.
So for the type ones, you aregood because he was perfect on
your behalf.
The type two, you are loved andwanted again, so much so that he
(49:24):
died and rose again for you tobring you to him to pursue you.
Type threes.
Uh, you are loved for simplybeing you.
It's not about youraccomplishments.
In fact, he accomplishedeverything on your behalf and
gave it to you.
And then for you as a type four,we talked about you are seen and
known for exactly who you are,special and unique.
You were knitted together inyour mother's womb.
(49:47):
He knows you way more than youknow you and has full connection
and you belong to him.
The type fives are your needsare not a problem.
Type fives feel like their needsare just too much.
But we've got the God of theuniverse, your needs, not only
are not a problem, it's adelight for him to be the good
shepherd, to provide and loveyou.
(50:07):
The type six is you are safe andsecure.
And yes, we all know that day today, we don't know what's going
to happen, but ultimately we aresafe and secure and his love,
his forgiveness and what he hasaccomplished for us, which is
amazing.
Absolute security within him.
The type sevens, you will betaken care of.
Type sevens just can't, theyjust, I can't rely on anyone to
(50:29):
fulfill this insatiable desireinside.
Well, we've got the spring ofliving water.
You can have as much as you wantand absolutely be fulfilled.
And then the type seven or typeeights, you will not be
betrayed.
He was the most betrayed, and sohe understands what that's like,
therefore he will never forsakeor betray you, but he is there
(50:51):
to protect you.
And then for us nines, like Italked about, your presence
matters.
He went to the nth degree tobring you back into
relationship.
So I hope that as we wrap upthis, that you guys will go get
Chuck's book, healing what'swithin, and I love the subtitle
coming home to yourself and toGod, when you are wounded,
(51:11):
weary, and wandering, I canattest to this, that my book is
fully written up, underlinedlike crazy.
I think I went through like twopens actually.
Um, and so please go get thisbook, begin your own journey of
healing.
Discovering the wounds that arewithin, but that he is calling
you back home.
Hey, Chuck, where can peoplefind you?
(51:32):
Find the book?
When's it coming out again?
Chuck (51:35):
Pretty, pretty simple.
It's at Chuck DeGroat across thedifferent social media sites.
Uh, chuckdegroat.
net online.
And the book is, uh, you can preorder the book at, at my website
and get, um, if this comes outbefore October 8th, a little.
Bonus, um, course on spiritualabuse.
But, um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
(51:56):
I hope people find their way toit and thank you, my friend.
It's so good.
It's always so good being withyou.
Beth (52:03):
Yeah.
Well, thank, thank you.
Seriously.
Thank you.
And I know you and I will havemany conversations in the future
on, you know, what God is doingin and through us, but really
appreciate you.
And I know you've got a busyfull life right now, so we're
going to let you head on to thenext thing on your to do list,
whether being a professor,launching the book, a new
counseling program, man, you,thank you so much for the work
(52:25):
that you
Chuck (52:25):
Thanks, Beth.
Beth (52:26):
Well, friend, I hope that you enjoyed I really highly
recommend this book.
It is literally for everyonewith big T traumas to little t
traumas to traumas that werehappened once to traumas that
were little paper cuts, athousand little paper cuts along
the way like me.
(52:48):
And so I highly recommend thisbook to you.
Um, don't delay, go get yourbook, um, go to chuckdegroat,
uh, com, net, uh, go find hismaterial.
Hopefully you can get it beforeit launches on October 8th to
get that special, uh, free bonuscourse that he mentioned.
(53:09):
Friends, once again for yourtime, your patience, your
thoughts, your prayers, as Iunpack my own story.
Um, it's been beautiful andreally, really hard.
Um, I think over time you'll seethat it will reap benefits for
myself and for you as well.
So keep me in your prayers.
(53:30):
Enjoy Jeff and Adam as theycontinue with the podcast and I
will see you hopefully soon.
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