October 14, 2024 • 38 mins
This week on the podcast, we dive into the topic of anxiety and how it shows up for each Enneagram type. With everything going on in the world today—from financial worries to political tension—anxiety is more present than ever.
If you've ever felt overwhelmed by anxiety or you're wondering how the Enneagram can help you manage it, this episode is for you.
What you'll learn:
- A definition of anxiety and its mental and physical symptoms
- How current events are spiking anxiety levels across the board
- Why anxiety is actually trying to protect us
- Insights from Inside Out 2 on how anxiety works and what it wants for us
How to start managing anxiety based on your Enneagram type
Thank you to our guest:
Adam Breckenridge - https://myenneagramcoach.com/coach/adam-breckenridge/
We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com.
FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources
Find an Enneagram Coach - https://myenneagramcoach.com/
Become an Enneagram Coach Course - https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/bec
#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff (00:00):
Hey friends, today we're going to be talking about
anxiety and specifically, whatdo you think is the most anxious
type on the Enneagram?
You know, we have so manystereotypes that we lean towards
when we think about the term ofanxiety and all the stereotypes
and that we put on eachindividual type.
Well, we're about to blow yourmind because we're going to talk
(00:20):
about anxiety, but how it showsup for each Enneagram type.
And before we get there, inorder for us to have a better
understanding, a more helpful.
Healthy relationship withanxiety, we're going to have to
define it.
And so we're thankful that youjoined us today.
We're going to dive in deep onwhat is anxiety in this episode.
Then we're going to apply it toeach Enneagram type.
(00:41):
And then we're going to comeback with a third episode in the
series to talk through how eachtype can handle anxiety.
Their own anxiety shows up.
Well, welcome to your Enneagramcoach, the podcast.
I am Jeff McCord, CEO and cofounder where we've helped
millions of people around theglobe to help discover, explore,
and become the person thatthey've always longed to be.
(01:02):
I'm here today with our directorof coaching, Adam Breckenridge,
Adam.
Always great to be with you
Adam (01:08):
Always great to be with you.
How about two sixes
Jeff (01:12):
Two.
Adam (01:13):
talking about anxiety?
Jeff (01:15):
That's what, see, now you say that, but that's one of the
stereotypes is that sixes mightbe the most anxious on the
Enneagram and I, I would beg todiffer.
Um, but I will say too, that,um, is kind of ironic, but why
(01:36):
shouldn't we though, like, causeif, if we were the most anxious,
then that means that we'vehandled the most anxiety.
Adam (01:42):
That's right.
That's right.
We're the experts on anxiety
Jeff (01:47):
Welcome to the hood.
Adam (01:52):
That is that is the name of our spinoff podcast
Jeff (01:57):
Welcome to the, uh, sometimes when, you know, Beth's
a nine and so she has a linethat comes down to six.
Yeah.
And, and I did say thatcorrectly.
It comes down to six.
Like she's got to, um, whenshe's not doing well, she gets
pretty anxious and spun out.
But, uh, I, I sometimes jokewith her like, Hey, Beth, you
can't let, you can't handleliving down need to get out of
my neighborhood.
Adam (02:20):
Let me let me worry
Jeff (02:24):
Oh, man.
Think about that.
When you think about Enneagramcouple types, uh, which one of
you is carrying the anxiety ofthe Oh, we've got a lot of
thoughts about anxiety,everybody.
A lot of Well, like I saidbefore, we've got, we're, for
these next few episodes, we'regoing to be talking about what
is anxiety.
We're going to show you how itshows up for each Enneagram
(02:45):
type, uh, and then we're goingto talk about what are ways to
handle What are ways to have abetter relationship to the
anxiety that we may or may nothave named So Adam's been doing
some excellent research on thistopic and it I have found him to
be tremendously helpful in beingable to been going on in my own
(03:08):
life.
And so Adam, why don't you startus off and just give us great
definition.
I'm going to say a cleardefinition.
You know, anxieties, sometimesit can be very expansive and
ambiguous at other times,clarity once you give us a
definition of kind of a workingdefinition for what anxiety is
and how it shows
Adam (03:29):
yeah, yeah.
I'll my best, shot.
So I think we'll start by namingthat anxiety is not just a six
thing it, you know, we jokeabout that, but anxiety really
is a common human common humanemotional experience and it can
manifest in a lot of differentways.
It can manifest mentally.
Constant worry, worst casescenario, thinking, restless
(03:51):
thoughts.
Uh, it shows up in, uh,physiological responses, like in
our emotions, tension in thebody, increased blood pressure,
racing heart, sweating, torelax, brain fog, muscle
tension, digestive issues, badsleep.
Um, so it's, it's this commonemotional experience that shows
(04:12):
up in different all, we're allfamiliar
Jeff (04:16):
Well, Adam, you know, whenever I hear you talk about
that, what, what I think ofwhenever I hear those my
sexiness shows up more stronglywhen I am And I wonder if that's
true for each Enneagram type isthat the, expression of our
(04:40):
type, our way of relating to theworld.
When it's the strongest is whenanxiety is Anxiety is when
something's not right in theworld.
And I have a pattern, bothphysiologically and
psychologically, as to how Idefault to try to address what's
(05:00):
wrong in the world.
Adam (05:03):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (05:05):
And it, it shows up differently for all of just
because you move towards tryingto be stronger, um, less
anxious, less connected with theworld, maybe more independent.
That doesn't mean that you'renot any less anxious.
Adam (05:20):
That's right.
Jeff (05:20):
be the style that respond to whenever you are
Adam (05:26):
That's right.
That's right.
And
Jeff (05:28):
thought I was an eight for five years.
Let's just get real here.
I thought I was an eight forfive until I sat down with a
therapist who was, he introducedone of my mentors to the
Enneagram program.
So he'd been saved for a while,this is back in 2001, and we sat
down with him, this was now in2011, and he said, Jeff, looking
(05:51):
at your story, I think you're asix, not an I was livid.
I did not touch the Enneagramfor a year after that.
I was so upset
Adam (06:02):
You didn't want to hear that.
Jeff (06:03):
want to admit
Adam (06:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, as we're going to see,
Jeff (06:12):
you've studied anxiety a lot.
No.
What, what was it that led youto want to study anxiety?
Adam (06:22):
well, I too had a therapist, um, encourage me and
lead me on a journey of buildinga relationship with my own
anxiety.
Uh, my, my own anxiety was notjust, not just something that
needed to be managed.
And sometimes, you know,especially if it's chronic
anxiety or an anxiety disorder.
(06:44):
that really overwhelms andinterferes with our ability to
function in everyday life.
Like there's, there's certain,you know, management strategies
that can be life saving and lifechanging, but you also have to
build a relationship with theanxiety.
So for me, it was, uh, uh, atherapist guiding me on a
journey of connecting with myown anxiety.
And then Uh, started doing thatin the relational dance with my
(07:07):
wife of like helping her build arelationship with the part of me
that's anxious, but then helpmyself trying to build a
relationship with the part ofher that's anxious.
And the more, you know, uh, Ikind of traveled down that path,
the more I realized that everytype is carrying anxiety and it
just shows up differently.
And we're going to get into thisand, you know, The next couple
(07:28):
of episodes, but you know, formy type one friends, there's a
certain anxiety driving theperfectionism.
And there's, it's a, it's aninteresting dance.
It's an interesting kind ofvicious cycle of there's an
anxiety pushing perfectionism.
I mean, we might call the, wecall them core fears, Jeff,
anxiety is just fear it's justthe word, take that fear to its,
(07:52):
to its, you know, impairedplace.
And it's a core anxiety thatevery type has.
And so the more imperfection,the one encounters, the more
anxious they become and the morethey double down Trying to
perfect and the, you know, the,the, that, that's the, that gets
into a cycle and you could walkthe wheel and do that with every
type, you know, that there's ananxiety, even as you were
(08:13):
talking about with the eight,the bravado and the strength of
an eight.
Yes, it's a gift and it can alsobe an attempt at getting bigger
than the anxiety that's Um, it'sa strategy.
So it, but it was to answer yourquestion.
It was my own exploration of myanxiety that kind of thrust me
into this doing this kind ofwork for the last, Probably Um,
(08:39):
but man, we're seeing thisreally play out in culture, you
know, and everybody's writingabout this.
Everybody's talking about this.
You know, what reallyexaggerated.
This is covid covid reallythrough, you know, gas on the
proverbial fire of anxiety, bothsituational anxiety.
You know, which is around workand bills and parenting and
(09:00):
conflict in life andrelationships and chronic
anxiety.
And, um, we're, we're currentlyliving in a moment that's marked
by tons of, you know, this iselection moment, you know, as
we're recording this.
And so there's financialworries, there's political
unrest, there's economicuncertainty.
Everybody's kind of feeling thetension.
(09:20):
Social media exaggerates this.
And so we're, we're seeing theimpact that this has on anxiety.
And I think it might've been youthat sent me an article that
said, you know, there are over40 million adults in the are now
diagnosed with anxietydisorders.
over the adult population.
(09:40):
And then there was anothersurvey.
This is the one you sent me thatdiscovered that 41 percent of Of
America, 41 percent of Americanadults are currently peak stress
uh, in, in their life.
And so think everybody's kind ofstressed out right now.
Jeff, would you, would youagree?
Jeff (10:01):
amped.
Everybody And, you know, I, Iwould say this, I, I experience
this on multiple levels.
But I, I certainly experienceit, um, because I, in my
relationships with people,whether professionally because
(10:21):
they, I notice that people arequickly, will say stuff like,
I'm out, or they just stopengaging.
It, it could be a, a simplerequest that maybe a friend
would ordinarily immediatelyrespond to, but then you start
to notice day or a full day toget text We experience this
(10:42):
professionally whenever we sendout emails to people.
hear back from them.
It, we're so overwhelmed.
It's almost like we're, we'rejust starting to shut down and
disassociate.
Adam (10:54):
that's
Jeff (10:56):
It's been interesting, like people buying books right
now.
People are buying fantasy Andwhy?
They're trying to get out.
the And it's 100 percentunderstandable.
How many of us ever grew up witha parent who helped us to
organize our emotions and ourbodies whenever we felt
(11:20):
overwhelmed and anxious?
Oftentimes we were, it was morelike we were shamed by their
responses.
Oh, put, put yourself together,get yourself together or
minimizing.
This is not that big of a
Adam (11:31):
Not that big a deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nothing to worry about.
Oh man, you can slap a Bibleverse on it.
Right.
Um, be anxious about nothing.
Don't be anxious about anything,Jeff.
Don't be anxious about anything.
I mean, what is there to worryabout?
Jeff (11:47):
sure, sure.
Tell us, tell us more aboutthis.
Uh, do not fear, which is thecommand.
Do not
Adam (11:54):
You know what we call that by the way, and maybe we're but
we call that spiritualpharmacology where it's, Oh,
you're anxious.
Take a couple of Bible versesand call me tomorrow.
This will fix your problem.
And of
Jeff (12:05):
Adam, why is it?
No, I mean, we're, I know we'rebeing provocative and if Beth
were here, she'd probably say,
Adam (12:10):
She said, all right guys, that's enough.
Jeff (12:13):
why do you think it is that And that maybe that's not
even how the Bible intendedthose
Adam (12:19):
Well, that's, that's the answer is that it's actually not
because it's not a relationalUm, the whole thing when the,
when the scriptures say, do notbe afraid is there's always a,
there's always a, it's not justdon't be afraid.
Like it's a black and whitemoral command.
If you're, if you're afraid,it's, it's a sin.
It actually never
Jeff (12:34):
Get your stuff together.
Adam (12:36):
no.
Yeah.
It's do not, you don't have tobe afraid because I'm here.
It's, it's always, it's a, it'san invitation to relationship of
bring your fear to me, thereason you don't have to be
afraid is because I'm not goingto abandon you.
I'll be with And so it's not a,Hey, you're wrong.
If you're afraid, it's, it'syour fear is a window into the
heart of God.
And it's an invitation to bewith God and connect with God
(12:58):
and your fear.
And that's what Jesus is doingwhen he's teaching on the
hillside.
He's like, you guys don't haveto be anxious.
Um, um, I'm with you and I loveyou and I'm for you.
Um, but he's certainly notshaming us for anxiety.
It's, it's this, it's arelational approach, but Hey,
can I tell you this?
And then, then we can shiftgears.
If we, if you want to shiftgears, we can.
The reason why we do thatthough, to, to ourselves and
(13:20):
other people, the reason why wesay, Oh, Hey, just don't be
afraid.
The Bible says, don't worry.
The person that does that doesthat because they're anxious.
They're having feelings youranxiety is actually making me So
I need to shut you down.
So here's a Bible verse that'sgoing to shut you down, put you
(13:42):
in your place, help you, youknow, now it's, now it's on you
and I don't have to carry it.
So anytime we go into fix itit's because the person fixing
is anxious, whether they realizeit or not, and they're trying to
out of their own And, uh, and soall that does Jeff is bring us
back
Jeff (14:06):
everybody is.
And it's profoundly isolating.
I have found in my own life inlight of the anxiety I'm
projecting onto others, uh, I,and in companionship with the
anxiety, I think others arefeeling, I, I just politically,
like our, I just feel like ourneighborhood volatile, tension
(14:32):
I, I don't feel safe or beingable to express my own I don't
know who I'm dealing
Adam (14:43):
That's right.
Jeff (14:44):
And, and I've developed this mindset, like I anyone to
share what I'm really thinkingor experiencing when things are
happening I've got thoughts, Ihave fears, I have, yeah,
reasons why I believe certainthings, but to be able to
actually share those out loudjust seems like such a
Adam (15:09):
Yeah.
Well, you know,
Jeff (15:09):
what's interesting, go
Adam (15:10):
go ahead.
Well, I was actually about toask you a question.
Why don't you, finish that
Jeff (15:16):
Well, what's been interesting since, many of you
may already know, but lastOctober, I'm coming up on one
year, I had a bypass multiple Ithink they replaced them all.
and it, but since then I startedwalking, uh, they'd given me,
uh, I don't know, aprescription, I guess, but I
(15:39):
needed to look to be able towalk one mile day within one
month after my surgery.
And that just, that put goalorientation part of my heart,
the athletic part of my heartinto action.
And so, but now I walk, uh, mostdays I walk about four And I
(15:59):
will say, and I, that the reasonwhy I have increased that to
that Much walking, like I, Iwalked out of my first New
Balance shoes, like I'd walkedso much.
The, the soles were coming offand there was aggregate on the
sidewalks that I watched wereliterally tearing up the walked
(16:21):
It's because I, I sense that myanxiety decreases.
It has probably been the numberone thing that I've ever done
address my walk.
And the reason why I'm up tofour miles most days, it's
because there's that muchanxiety
Adam (16:38):
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Can you say more about that?
That's what I was going to askis since, since we're already
talking about, you the anxietythat you're carrying and I'm
happy to share as well, but I'mjust curious as a six, how would
you describe your relationshipto anxiety, especially during
Anxious times.
Jeff (16:59):
my most acute times.
And I was just listening aboutthis, last night, as a um, is
before I go to And what thisparticular segment of the
podcast was discussing was whydo we these emotional responses
(17:20):
that finally Now, for many ofus, we've it, where we're going
to in hopes that we'll just beable to Some people might choose
alcohol, uh, some people mightchoose a little bit of food or
going to help them to fallasleep, maybe medications, it's
(17:44):
almost anxiety just shows up andsays, you're, you can't get away
And for me, it's just racingthoughts.
I wake up at thinking about, I'mnot even thinking reasonably.
I was this morning, uh, I wokeup, thinking about something
that didn't even was trying to
Adam (18:06):
Oh
Jeff (18:07):
uh, cause I'm halfway dreaming and halfway awake
trying to figure something out.
I carry the anxiety in my body.
It, I mean, it's right there inthe pit of my stomach.
Adam (18:17):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (18:18):
It shows up in over and over and over the problem.
and it, it's particularlyburdensome.
And what, what walking has done,like I, I literally have the
image with each step I'mtransferring the anxiety trying
(18:38):
to let my body And even therhythms are lines in the
sidewalks.
We live in a fairly newneighborhood and so the
sidewalks are still put togetherand not cracking and stuff, but
they're, you know, the littlelines to prevent cracking the
side.
It's almost rhythmic, uh, as theline, the line, which is of the
(19:02):
origin story EMDR, which is atherapeutic And those kinds of
Things calm down for me and Inotice on days that I don't uh,
I just start the day amped andracing and trying to solve every
(19:23):
rather than the How about you?
How does it show
Adam (19:29):
Yeah.
It's funny that you say, um,right before bed for me, it's
often first thing in the Um, I,I think that's when I, when I
mostly notice anxiety, I thinkI, you know, when you wake up,
you're, you're, You, you know,you're kind of defenseless,
you're not at your strongest,you're sort of, you're pretty
(19:50):
vulnerable, you know, and, andthere's a whole day in front of
you and there's a big to do liston that, you know, for that day.
And there's, there's things fromthe past days to do list that
you didn't complete.
And, um, immediately there'skids that need me and need
something from me and everybodyneeds something from me.
(20:11):
And, uh, I think that's, that'sthe moment, which is why.
You know, what I've tried to doto counter not push away.
Not, not push away my anxiety,but, uh, as we're going to talk
about in a minute, welcome itand encounter it with kindness
is I try to start my day withsome silence and solitude, just
some time alone to myself.
(20:32):
Um, kind of like you're talkingabout going for a walk.
I'm talking about sitting downand You know, not jumping, not
even jumping straight into abook or scripture or do just
cause that even that can be adistraction from my anxiety.
I need to start my day.
If I, if I'm at my best, I'mstarting my alone for, you know,
(20:53):
somewhere between five to 20minutes just by myself alone
now, you know, There's adifference between the ideal and
the real, uh, in real life thatdoesn't happen every day.
You know, a lot of times we wakeup just, just in enough time to
get everybody fed for breakfastand get out the door to get the
kids to school.
Then I got to get back and jumpinto my first Um, but you know,
(21:17):
that's where I noticed it showup.
I noticed it show up inparenting a lot.
Um, I mean, you talk about.
If anxiety has something to dowith control, you're pretty out
of these other human beings thatyou're responsible for.
You can't keep them breathing.
You can't make them, make wisechoices.
You can't, you
Jeff (21:38):
Adam, in my recovery meeting, we have a specific
Adam (21:45):
uh,
Jeff (21:48):
the typical serenity prayer is God grant me the
accept the things that thecourage to I can and our
program, um, and the, the, It'smuch more It gets me every time
I say it, but it's God grant methe serenity to accept courage
(22:16):
and the wisdom to know that thatone is
Adam (22:19):
Ooh,
Jeff (22:21):
See that, see that's where it lands right at the end, like
the wisdom to know that one isme, like I'm the only one I
Can't change anybody How much ofour anxiety in that, that,
between
Adam (22:35):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Jeff (22:39):
you mentioned something earlier about reading scripture.
You know, I, it makes me think,you know, the first thing in the
morning, if you're getting up todo, if you're getting up to try
and solve the problems of theday,
Adam (22:56):
that's a recipe for anxiety.
Jeff (22:58):
you're, you're literally activating your, nervous system
in a way as to be more anxious.
But what you were saying isthat, and this is what I've
experienced for myself, mywalking is an act of kindness
towards
Adam (23:15):
that's
Jeff (23:16):
It is attuning to myself, being in silence and solitude.
So for me, I've stoppedlistening to on my walks because
books rev my mind up and rev thedreams and, um, desires,
aspirations.
Adam (23:33):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (23:34):
I love love reading,
Adam (23:37):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (23:38):
but it activates.
Adam (23:39):
Yeah.
And then, you know what?
Jeff (23:40):
Dan Allender once, I said, what, what, what should you do
if you don't have the money togo to a counselor?
What should you do when you'reon long, slow
Adam (23:49):
Yep.
Jeff (23:51):
Slow down and take care of it.
Show up in loving kindness
Adam (23:59):
a, it's a game changer.
If, if you try to match youranxiety with, resolutions.
If you see your anxiety as, um,I mean your anxiety is not the
problem.
It's usually the solution.
It's usually a part of youthat's working really hard to
(24:20):
try to fix something for you andhelp you with something.
And we're going to, that'swhere, that's where we're going
to land this conversation.
Jeff (24:25):
Right.
Well, keep going with that,Adam, because this, you've heard
us use the phrase a couple oftimes, having a relationship
with And for most of us, we're,we're trying to kick it out and
beat it with a stick and try toget it out of our house, like a,
like a, a pest in our home.
Adam (24:46):
Yeah, yeah.
How, how, and how's that workingfor you?
Jeff (24:49):
you can't.
Adam (24:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about that.
I think, but you know, before weend this conversation, let's
talk the role that anxiety isThe last thing we want to do,
and I hope to the listener you,really lean in The last thing we
want to do is shame anyone'sanxiety.
The reality is anxiety is tryingto Anxiety at its core is a
(25:15):
survival mechanism designed toprotect us.
It's like the mind's way ofalerting us to potential danger,
perceived threats.
It pushes us to take action tostay safe.
In this sense, anxiety has goodIt's trying to keep, you know,
keep us aware and prepared,whether that's helping us plan
(25:37):
for future challenges or, uh,avoid risks, meet deadlines.
It's a signal that somethingneeds our attention and it often
feels overwhelming.
feels very uncomfortable, uh,but still its role is to ensure
that we are vigilant.
We are equipped to respond tosituations that, that might
compromise or hurt our wellbeingor the wellbeing of people we
(25:59):
love.
And so when properly understood,anxiety can be, let me say it
this way.
When properly understood andproperly led related, related
to.
In a healthy way, anxiety can bea really helpful part of us that
motivates us to, to makedecisions that support our
growth and safety.
(26:20):
And you know, Jeff, you and I
Jeff (26:22):
this, Adam, the, you're hinting at but you didn't come
out and to follow up with just a
Adam (26:31):
yeah, yeah.
Jeff (26:33):
Are you saying God made us a way as to
Adam (26:41):
Well, it's, it's certainly, uh, baked into the
human experience.
I mean, there's no way tonavigate life in a world that's
in a world that's unsafe.
Um, and not feel anxious.
And if, if properly understood,anxiety is not the thing that's
wrong with you, that you need tofix or shame or, you know, get
(27:04):
better in order for you to feelokay with yourself or for God or
whoever to feel okay with you.
Anxiety is not the thing aboutyou that's broken that needs to
be fixed.
It's, it's the very thing aboutyou that makes you human.
And it's a, it's an invitation.
To love, really.
I mean, it's an invitation toexperience God's mercy and grace
and kindness The thing thatkeeps us from experiencing God's
(27:26):
kindness to us in anxiety Isusually our lack of kindness
toward ourselves closes thedoor, closes the door to his
kindness.
And, um, and so that's, that'sthe, thing is, can you see your
anxiety through the eyes of loveas a part of you that's trying
(27:46):
to help you?
If you, if you see it as a, apest in your house that you need
to push out the door or beat itwith a stick, as you were saying
earlier, that's, it's, it's onlygoing to dig in its heels.
It's only going to get moreanxious and more out of control.
Um,
Jeff (28:03):
earlier, I think recently personally both on the podcast
and, uh, in but about the movieinside out
Adam (28:16):
oh yeah.
So
Jeff (28:17):
because it's main, uh, what I want to conflict how a
person anxiety.
Adam (28:28):
Mm
Jeff (28:30):
mean, you've, you've always done such an excellent
job of explaining through, butwhy don't you tell us about,
tell us about the role ofanxiety in
Adam (28:39):
Yeah, so in Inside Out 2, Riley's now in middle school,
you know, and she's, she'sanxious.
There's a, there's a, if youhaven't seen the film, the
supporting cast Riley'semotions, which are personified.
And in the second film, as Imentioned, anxiety is introduced
as the new emotion.
That reflects her experience ofmoving into adolescence.
(29:00):
And what you see in the movie ishow anxiety steps in over and
over to protect Riley by warningher of potential dangers and
uncertainties.
she's facing all kinds of newchallenges like puberty and
social pressures and going to anew school with new friends
being, you know, academicexpectations you know, all her
(29:21):
raging hormones.
And she's, she's going throughall this change and anxiety
steps in however, you know, asyou and I both know, Jeff, while
anxiety's intentions are to keepher safe, can also overwhelm
there's a really powerful scene.
(29:42):
You remember the scene late inthe movie where anxiety's
totally spun out?
And running around the controlboard and Riley's mind.
And I mean, literally spinningaround and around and, uh,
Riley's having a panic attack.
You can, you can see what'sgoing on inside of her where
anxiety is spun out.
And then you can see what'sgoing on outside of she's having
(30:02):
this panic attack.
And
Jeff (30:04):
And it is interesting too, like all the, you know, it is a
movie where these emotions buteach of the other emotions have
feelings about
Adam (30:14):
that's right.
Yeah,
Jeff (30:16):
So it's not just Riley's experience, but it's the other
parts of
Adam (30:24):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (30:25):
has this kind of global impact you know, I, my friends
have described it as like peopleon an inner tube in the water, a
relationship to one another inrole.
And if it's over functioning, itcauses all kinds of panic
Adam (30:44):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
And Joy, uh, the character, the,the emotion Joy inside Riley,
uh, played by Amy Poehler, um,Anxiety played by Maya Hawke,
they're the main two that arekind of at each other.
You know, in the first film itwas Joy and Sadness, and they
learned at the end of the film,spoiler alert, that the only way
(31:06):
For the, for Riley to flourishas if they are integrated and
they befriend one another andthey have to actually, they
actually have to have eachexist.
You can't have one without theother.
And in this film, it's joy andanxiety who are trying to,
they're on their own.
There's a lot of tension betweenthem and they're, they're on
this journey of, befriendingeach other.
(31:26):
And what happens in that scenewhere Riley's totally spun out
or anxiety is totally spun out,uh, joy moves toward anxiety.
You, you know, you see ithappening inside Riley's mind
and joy feels compassion for Andyou learn that that's, that's
the key.
I mean, if you can look at thepart of you that's anxious with
(31:47):
compassion and what happens isjoy guides anxiety to let Riley
and then the panic stops.
And when anxiety finally stepsback, she looks at joy bereft
and she says, this is a directquote.
I was just trying to and I'll behonest with you, Jeff.
(32:09):
I mean, I get emotional now whenI was in the theater, I lost it
during that I lost it.
I, I think I just felt, I feltso much myself of me anxiety
that are, that are trying toprotect me.
But what you realize, and I'dlove to hear your thoughts on
(32:30):
this you, realize in that momentall along anxiety was not the
antagonist Anxiety was just,just trying to and
Jeff (32:40):
sorry, I might have looked a little distracted in that
moment.
But our family's coming over fordinner tonight.
And one of my grand dogs justcame up to say hi to me Came in,
got a few she left.
Adam (32:54):
that's all you're good for.
Just, just a few scratches.
Jeff (32:59):
her anxious heart
Adam (33:02):
Yep.
Jeff (33:02):
was ready to come see peppa and Yeah, no, but yeah,
yeah, you are right and justtrying to protect I mean but
think about that think about theexact thing levels or story of
your anxiety my anxiety was It'scarrying the burden of having a
(33:28):
mom who was ill.
Um, and facing a world at timesI didn't anxiety was the energy
that moved me to try to figurethings You know, they say for
sixes, they, they don't describethemselves as smart or
(33:48):
intelligence, but street smart.
And, uh, there's a certain sensewhere I'm, I'm always observing
the world, trying to absorbwhatever I can, because I don't
feel like I'm enough to Uh,there's what, what security do
where can I find Um, And so our,our, that part of our heart that
(34:15):
carries anxiety is, it's a giftthat needs to be affirmed.
And that was part of what washappening is anxiety had good
plans at and other times wasover functioning in life and
actually get in the way andactually creating more harm for
and more harm for us.
(34:36):
Because when you sustain thatmuch in high levels of anxiety
for longer periods of time, thebody doesn't thrive And so we
Transcribed But, and that's oneof the ways that the Enneagram
actually becomes very helpful isthat we don't have to talk about
anxiety in generalized but weget to talk about it and how it
(34:57):
shows up very specifically.
And so in our next episode,we're actually going to walk
through each of the nine typesand talk about how each of the
nine types, anxiety shows up intheir and sort of like the
trailhead of a hiking trail.
It's going to be the path thatwhen you experience it, your
(35:18):
inclination is to want toindulge it.
But it's actually a path to becurious about and to walk
through rather than away It'slike a, like that old children's
book, going on a bear hunt,
Adam (35:34):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (35:35):
No, no grass, tall, wavy graph.
Adam (35:38):
Can't go around it.
Jeff (35:39):
go under
Adam (35:40):
Can't go over it.
Jeff (35:41):
got to go through it.
Adam (35:43):
Got to.
Jeff (35:43):
And your anxiety has something to teach you about the
And, and, uh, it, it actuallycan lead you to profound
intimacy with others.
you start to embrace, and, andintimacy with God.
When you start to embrace therole anxiety is playing in your
(36:03):
life.
Adam (36:04):
That's right.
Jeff (36:05):
It's not something that you have to be afraid of.
But the more that I attune and,uh, look towards my anxiety, the
more that it feels seen, itfeels and the better parts of
the more grounded parts actuallycan provide the kind of guidance
(36:29):
and protection And each day thatI walk, that's what's happening.
That anxious part of my heart isseeing, Oh, adult Jeff's going
to take care of us At least forthe morning walk.
We'll see what happens
Adam (36:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll see.
We'll see where we are aroundlunch, but, but right
Jeff (36:53):
That's so true.
Adam (36:54):
yeah,
Jeff (36:55):
it's so
Adam (36:56):
Well, thanks Jeff for, for unpacking that for us.
And I'm really excited aboutthese next couple episodes.
You know, that we're, we'regoing to talk about the role, as
you said, anxiety is, playingand how it shows up for each
Enneagram type.
And then, uh, two episodes fromnow, we're going to talk about
practices of self leadership.
Where, when you see anxiety, youcan not come at it with a
(37:18):
broomstick or whatever weapon ofchoice, but you can actually
have, uh, some, some healthyresponses we call healthy self
leadership and ways that you cannavigate your anxiety when it
shows up.
So, yeah.
Thank you for joining us forthis discussion about anxiety
and the Enneagram.
Uh, if you found this helpful,be sure to like, and subscribe,
(37:40):
and share this episode with afriend.
And, you know, don't forget toask us your questions.
You can reach out to us in thecomments, or email us at info at
your Enneagram coach.
com.
And we'll hope, hope you'll joinus for the next couple of
episodes as we continue thisconversation.
Like I said, in our nextepisode, Jeff and I are going to
talk about how each Enneagramtype experiences anxiety, and we
(38:01):
can't wait to see in thatepisode.
Thanks for joining us.
Have a great
Jeff (38:05):
Thanks, everybody.
Hey friends, today we're going to be talking about
anxiety and specifically, whatdo you think is the most anxious
type on the Enneagram?
You know, we have so manystereotypes that we lean towards
when we think about the term ofanxiety and all the stereotypes
and that we put on eachindividual type.
Well, we're about to blow yourmind because we're going to talk
(00:20):
about anxiety, but how it showsup for each Enneagram type.
And before we get there, inorder for us to have a better
understanding, a more helpful.
Healthy relationship withanxiety, we're going to have to
define it.
And so we're thankful that youjoined us today.
We're going to dive in deep onwhat is anxiety in this episode.
Then we're going to apply it toeach Enneagram type.
(00:41):
And then we're going to comeback with a third episode in the
series to talk through how eachtype can handle anxiety.
Their own anxiety shows up.
Well, welcome to your Enneagramcoach, the podcast.
I am Jeff McCord, CEO and cofounder where we've helped
millions of people around theglobe to help discover, explore,
and become the person thatthey've always longed to be.
(01:02):
I'm here today with our directorof coaching, Adam Breckenridge,
Adam.
Always great to be with you
Adam (01:08):
Always great to be with you.
How about two sixes
Jeff (01:12):
Two.
Adam (01:13):
talking about anxiety?
Jeff (01:15):
That's what, see, now you say that, but that's one of the
stereotypes is that sixes mightbe the most anxious on the
Enneagram and I, I would beg todiffer.
Um, but I will say too, that,um, is kind of ironic, but why
(01:36):
shouldn't we though, like, causeif, if we were the most anxious,
then that means that we'vehandled the most anxiety.
Adam (01:42):
That's right.
That's right.
We're the experts on anxiety
Jeff (01:47):
Welcome to the hood.
Adam (01:52):
That is that is the name of our spinoff podcast
Jeff (01:57):
Welcome to the, uh, sometimes when, you know, Beth's
a nine and so she has a linethat comes down to six.
Yeah.
And, and I did say thatcorrectly.
It comes down to six.
Like she's got to, um, whenshe's not doing well, she gets
pretty anxious and spun out.
But, uh, I, I sometimes jokewith her like, Hey, Beth, you
can't let, you can't handleliving down need to get out of
my neighborhood.
Adam (02:20):
Let me let me worry
Jeff (02:24):
Oh, man.
Think about that.
When you think about Enneagramcouple types, uh, which one of
you is carrying the anxiety ofthe Oh, we've got a lot of
thoughts about anxiety,everybody.
A lot of Well, like I saidbefore, we've got, we're, for
these next few episodes, we'regoing to be talking about what
is anxiety.
We're going to show you how itshows up for each Enneagram
(02:45):
type, uh, and then we're goingto talk about what are ways to
handle What are ways to have abetter relationship to the
anxiety that we may or may nothave named So Adam's been doing
some excellent research on thistopic and it I have found him to
be tremendously helpful in beingable to been going on in my own
(03:08):
life.
And so Adam, why don't you startus off and just give us great
definition.
I'm going to say a cleardefinition.
You know, anxieties, sometimesit can be very expansive and
ambiguous at other times,clarity once you give us a
definition of kind of a workingdefinition for what anxiety is
and how it shows
Adam (03:29):
yeah, yeah.
I'll my best, shot.
So I think we'll start by namingthat anxiety is not just a six
thing it, you know, we jokeabout that, but anxiety really
is a common human common humanemotional experience and it can
manifest in a lot of differentways.
It can manifest mentally.
Constant worry, worst casescenario, thinking, restless
(03:51):
thoughts.
Uh, it shows up in, uh,physiological responses, like in
our emotions, tension in thebody, increased blood pressure,
racing heart, sweating, torelax, brain fog, muscle
tension, digestive issues, badsleep.
Um, so it's, it's this commonemotional experience that shows
(04:12):
up in different all, we're allfamiliar
Jeff (04:16):
Well, Adam, you know, whenever I hear you talk about
that, what, what I think ofwhenever I hear those my
sexiness shows up more stronglywhen I am And I wonder if that's
true for each Enneagram type isthat the, expression of our
(04:40):
type, our way of relating to theworld.
When it's the strongest is whenanxiety is Anxiety is when
something's not right in theworld.
And I have a pattern, bothphysiologically and
psychologically, as to how Idefault to try to address what's
(05:00):
wrong in the world.
Adam (05:03):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (05:05):
And it, it shows up differently for all of just
because you move towards tryingto be stronger, um, less
anxious, less connected with theworld, maybe more independent.
That doesn't mean that you'renot any less anxious.
Adam (05:20):
That's right.
Jeff (05:20):
be the style that respond to whenever you are
Adam (05:26):
That's right.
That's right.
And
Jeff (05:28):
thought I was an eight for five years.
Let's just get real here.
I thought I was an eight forfive until I sat down with a
therapist who was, he introducedone of my mentors to the
Enneagram program.
So he'd been saved for a while,this is back in 2001, and we sat
down with him, this was now in2011, and he said, Jeff, looking
(05:51):
at your story, I think you're asix, not an I was livid.
I did not touch the Enneagramfor a year after that.
I was so upset
Adam (06:02):
You didn't want to hear that.
Jeff (06:03):
want to admit
Adam (06:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, as we're going to see,
Jeff (06:12):
you've studied anxiety a lot.
No.
What, what was it that led youto want to study anxiety?
Adam (06:22):
well, I too had a therapist, um, encourage me and
lead me on a journey of buildinga relationship with my own
anxiety.
Uh, my, my own anxiety was notjust, not just something that
needed to be managed.
And sometimes, you know,especially if it's chronic
anxiety or an anxiety disorder.
(06:44):
that really overwhelms andinterferes with our ability to
function in everyday life.
Like there's, there's certain,you know, management strategies
that can be life saving and lifechanging, but you also have to
build a relationship with theanxiety.
So for me, it was, uh, uh, atherapist guiding me on a
journey of connecting with myown anxiety.
And then Uh, started doing thatin the relational dance with my
(07:07):
wife of like helping her build arelationship with the part of me
that's anxious, but then helpmyself trying to build a
relationship with the part ofher that's anxious.
And the more, you know, uh, Ikind of traveled down that path,
the more I realized that everytype is carrying anxiety and it
just shows up differently.
And we're going to get into thisand, you know, The next couple
(07:28):
of episodes, but you know, formy type one friends, there's a
certain anxiety driving theperfectionism.
And there's, it's a, it's aninteresting dance.
It's an interesting kind ofvicious cycle of there's an
anxiety pushing perfectionism.
I mean, we might call the, wecall them core fears, Jeff,
anxiety is just fear it's justthe word, take that fear to its,
(07:52):
to its, you know, impairedplace.
And it's a core anxiety thatevery type has.
And so the more imperfection,the one encounters, the more
anxious they become and the morethey double down Trying to
perfect and the, you know, the,the, that, that's the, that gets
into a cycle and you could walkthe wheel and do that with every
type, you know, that there's ananxiety, even as you were
(08:13):
talking about with the eight,the bravado and the strength of
an eight.
Yes, it's a gift and it can alsobe an attempt at getting bigger
than the anxiety that's Um, it'sa strategy.
So it, but it was to answer yourquestion.
It was my own exploration of myanxiety that kind of thrust me
into this doing this kind ofwork for the last, Probably Um,
(08:39):
but man, we're seeing thisreally play out in culture, you
know, and everybody's writingabout this.
Everybody's talking about this.
You know, what reallyexaggerated.
This is covid covid reallythrough, you know, gas on the
proverbial fire of anxiety, bothsituational anxiety.
You know, which is around workand bills and parenting and
(09:00):
conflict in life andrelationships and chronic
anxiety.
And, um, we're, we're currentlyliving in a moment that's marked
by tons of, you know, this iselection moment, you know, as
we're recording this.
And so there's financialworries, there's political
unrest, there's economicuncertainty.
Everybody's kind of feeling thetension.
(09:20):
Social media exaggerates this.
And so we're, we're seeing theimpact that this has on anxiety.
And I think it might've been youthat sent me an article that
said, you know, there are over40 million adults in the are now
diagnosed with anxietydisorders.
over the adult population.
(09:40):
And then there was anothersurvey.
This is the one you sent me thatdiscovered that 41 percent of Of
America, 41 percent of Americanadults are currently peak stress
uh, in, in their life.
And so think everybody's kind ofstressed out right now.
Jeff, would you, would youagree?
Jeff (10:01):
amped.
Everybody And, you know, I, Iwould say this, I, I experience
this on multiple levels.
But I, I certainly experienceit, um, because I, in my
relationships with people,whether professionally because
(10:21):
they, I notice that people arequickly, will say stuff like,
I'm out, or they just stopengaging.
It, it could be a, a simplerequest that maybe a friend
would ordinarily immediatelyrespond to, but then you start
to notice day or a full day toget text We experience this
(10:42):
professionally whenever we sendout emails to people.
hear back from them.
It, we're so overwhelmed.
It's almost like we're, we'rejust starting to shut down and
disassociate.
Adam (10:54):
that's
Jeff (10:56):
It's been interesting, like people buying books right
now.
People are buying fantasy Andwhy?
They're trying to get out.
the And it's 100 percentunderstandable.
How many of us ever grew up witha parent who helped us to
organize our emotions and ourbodies whenever we felt
(11:20):
overwhelmed and anxious?
Oftentimes we were, it was morelike we were shamed by their
responses.
Oh, put, put yourself together,get yourself together or
minimizing.
This is not that big of a
Adam (11:31):
Not that big a deal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nothing to worry about.
Oh man, you can slap a Bibleverse on it.
Right.
Um, be anxious about nothing.
Don't be anxious about anything,Jeff.
Don't be anxious about anything.
I mean, what is there to worryabout?
Jeff (11:47):
sure, sure.
Tell us, tell us more aboutthis.
Uh, do not fear, which is thecommand.
Do not
Adam (11:54):
You know what we call that by the way, and maybe we're but
we call that spiritualpharmacology where it's, Oh,
you're anxious.
Take a couple of Bible versesand call me tomorrow.
This will fix your problem.
And of
Jeff (12:05):
Adam, why is it?
No, I mean, we're, I know we'rebeing provocative and if Beth
were here, she'd probably say,
Adam (12:10):
She said, all right guys, that's enough.
Jeff (12:13):
why do you think it is that And that maybe that's not
even how the Bible intendedthose
Adam (12:19):
Well, that's, that's the answer is that it's actually not
because it's not a relationalUm, the whole thing when the,
when the scriptures say, do notbe afraid is there's always a,
there's always a, it's not justdon't be afraid.
Like it's a black and whitemoral command.
If you're, if you're afraid,it's, it's a sin.
It actually never
Jeff (12:34):
Get your stuff together.
Adam (12:36):
no.
Yeah.
It's do not, you don't have tobe afraid because I'm here.
It's, it's always, it's a, it'san invitation to relationship of
bring your fear to me, thereason you don't have to be
afraid is because I'm not goingto abandon you.
I'll be with And so it's not a,Hey, you're wrong.
If you're afraid, it's, it'syour fear is a window into the
heart of God.
And it's an invitation to bewith God and connect with God
(12:58):
and your fear.
And that's what Jesus is doingwhen he's teaching on the
hillside.
He's like, you guys don't haveto be anxious.
Um, um, I'm with you and I loveyou and I'm for you.
Um, but he's certainly notshaming us for anxiety.
It's, it's this, it's arelational approach, but Hey,
can I tell you this?
And then, then we can shiftgears.
If we, if you want to shiftgears, we can.
The reason why we do thatthough, to, to ourselves and
(13:20):
other people, the reason why wesay, Oh, Hey, just don't be
afraid.
The Bible says, don't worry.
The person that does that doesthat because they're anxious.
They're having feelings youranxiety is actually making me So
I need to shut you down.
So here's a Bible verse that'sgoing to shut you down, put you
(13:42):
in your place, help you, youknow, now it's, now it's on you
and I don't have to carry it.
So anytime we go into fix itit's because the person fixing
is anxious, whether they realizeit or not, and they're trying to
out of their own And, uh, and soall that does Jeff is bring us
back
Jeff (14:06):
everybody is.
And it's profoundly isolating.
I have found in my own life inlight of the anxiety I'm
projecting onto others, uh, I,and in companionship with the
anxiety, I think others arefeeling, I, I just politically,
like our, I just feel like ourneighborhood volatile, tension
(14:32):
I, I don't feel safe or beingable to express my own I don't
know who I'm dealing
Adam (14:43):
That's right.
Jeff (14:44):
And, and I've developed this mindset, like I anyone to
share what I'm really thinkingor experiencing when things are
happening I've got thoughts, Ihave fears, I have, yeah,
reasons why I believe certainthings, but to be able to
actually share those out loudjust seems like such a
Adam (15:09):
Yeah.
Well, you know,
Jeff (15:09):
what's interesting, go
Adam (15:10):
go ahead.
Well, I was actually about toask you a question.
Why don't you, finish that
Jeff (15:16):
Well, what's been interesting since, many of you
may already know, but lastOctober, I'm coming up on one
year, I had a bypass multiple Ithink they replaced them all.
and it, but since then I startedwalking, uh, they'd given me,
uh, I don't know, aprescription, I guess, but I
(15:39):
needed to look to be able towalk one mile day within one
month after my surgery.
And that just, that put goalorientation part of my heart,
the athletic part of my heartinto action.
And so, but now I walk, uh, mostdays I walk about four And I
(15:59):
will say, and I, that the reasonwhy I have increased that to
that Much walking, like I, Iwalked out of my first New
Balance shoes, like I'd walkedso much.
The, the soles were coming offand there was aggregate on the
sidewalks that I watched wereliterally tearing up the walked
(16:21):
It's because I, I sense that myanxiety decreases.
It has probably been the numberone thing that I've ever done
address my walk.
And the reason why I'm up tofour miles most days, it's
because there's that muchanxiety
Adam (16:38):
Uh huh.
Yeah.
Can you say more about that?
That's what I was going to askis since, since we're already
talking about, you the anxietythat you're carrying and I'm
happy to share as well, but I'mjust curious as a six, how would
you describe your relationshipto anxiety, especially during
Anxious times.
Jeff (16:59):
my most acute times.
And I was just listening aboutthis, last night, as a um, is
before I go to And what thisparticular segment of the
podcast was discussing was whydo we these emotional responses
(17:20):
that finally Now, for many ofus, we've it, where we're going
to in hopes that we'll just beable to Some people might choose
alcohol, uh, some people mightchoose a little bit of food or
going to help them to fallasleep, maybe medications, it's
(17:44):
almost anxiety just shows up andsays, you're, you can't get away
And for me, it's just racingthoughts.
I wake up at thinking about, I'mnot even thinking reasonably.
I was this morning, uh, I wokeup, thinking about something
that didn't even was trying to
Adam (18:06):
Oh
Jeff (18:07):
uh, cause I'm halfway dreaming and halfway awake
trying to figure something out.
I carry the anxiety in my body.
It, I mean, it's right there inthe pit of my stomach.
Adam (18:17):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (18:18):
It shows up in over and over and over the problem.
and it, it's particularlyburdensome.
And what, what walking has done,like I, I literally have the
image with each step I'mtransferring the anxiety trying
(18:38):
to let my body And even therhythms are lines in the
sidewalks.
We live in a fairly newneighborhood and so the
sidewalks are still put togetherand not cracking and stuff, but
they're, you know, the littlelines to prevent cracking the
side.
It's almost rhythmic, uh, as theline, the line, which is of the
(19:02):
origin story EMDR, which is atherapeutic And those kinds of
Things calm down for me and Inotice on days that I don't uh,
I just start the day amped andracing and trying to solve every
(19:23):
rather than the How about you?
How does it show
Adam (19:29):
Yeah.
It's funny that you say, um,right before bed for me, it's
often first thing in the Um, I,I think that's when I, when I
mostly notice anxiety, I thinkI, you know, when you wake up,
you're, you're, You, you know,you're kind of defenseless,
you're not at your strongest,you're sort of, you're pretty
(19:50):
vulnerable, you know, and, andthere's a whole day in front of
you and there's a big to do liston that, you know, for that day.
And there's, there's things fromthe past days to do list that
you didn't complete.
And, um, immediately there'skids that need me and need
something from me and everybodyneeds something from me.
(20:11):
And, uh, I think that's, that'sthe moment, which is why.
You know, what I've tried to doto counter not push away.
Not, not push away my anxiety,but, uh, as we're going to talk
about in a minute, welcome itand encounter it with kindness
is I try to start my day withsome silence and solitude, just
some time alone to myself.
(20:32):
Um, kind of like you're talkingabout going for a walk.
I'm talking about sitting downand You know, not jumping, not
even jumping straight into abook or scripture or do just
cause that even that can be adistraction from my anxiety.
I need to start my day.
If I, if I'm at my best, I'mstarting my alone for, you know,
(20:53):
somewhere between five to 20minutes just by myself alone
now, you know, There's adifference between the ideal and
the real, uh, in real life thatdoesn't happen every day.
You know, a lot of times we wakeup just, just in enough time to
get everybody fed for breakfastand get out the door to get the
kids to school.
Then I got to get back and jumpinto my first Um, but you know,
(21:17):
that's where I noticed it showup.
I noticed it show up inparenting a lot.
Um, I mean, you talk about.
If anxiety has something to dowith control, you're pretty out
of these other human beings thatyou're responsible for.
You can't keep them breathing.
You can't make them, make wisechoices.
You can't, you
Jeff (21:38):
Adam, in my recovery meeting, we have a specific
Adam (21:45):
uh,
Jeff (21:48):
the typical serenity prayer is God grant me the
accept the things that thecourage to I can and our
program, um, and the, the, It'smuch more It gets me every time
I say it, but it's God grant methe serenity to accept courage
(22:16):
and the wisdom to know that thatone is
Adam (22:19):
Ooh,
Jeff (22:21):
See that, see that's where it lands right at the end, like
the wisdom to know that one isme, like I'm the only one I
Can't change anybody How much ofour anxiety in that, that,
between
Adam (22:35):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Jeff (22:39):
you mentioned something earlier about reading scripture.
You know, I, it makes me think,you know, the first thing in the
morning, if you're getting up todo, if you're getting up to try
and solve the problems of theday,
Adam (22:56):
that's a recipe for anxiety.
Jeff (22:58):
you're, you're literally activating your, nervous system
in a way as to be more anxious.
But what you were saying isthat, and this is what I've
experienced for myself, mywalking is an act of kindness
towards
Adam (23:15):
that's
Jeff (23:16):
It is attuning to myself, being in silence and solitude.
So for me, I've stoppedlistening to on my walks because
books rev my mind up and rev thedreams and, um, desires,
aspirations.
Adam (23:33):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (23:34):
I love love reading,
Adam (23:37):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (23:38):
but it activates.
Adam (23:39):
Yeah.
And then, you know what?
Jeff (23:40):
Dan Allender once, I said, what, what, what should you do
if you don't have the money togo to a counselor?
What should you do when you'reon long, slow
Adam (23:49):
Yep.
Jeff (23:51):
Slow down and take care of it.
Show up in loving kindness
Adam (23:59):
a, it's a game changer.
If, if you try to match youranxiety with, resolutions.
If you see your anxiety as, um,I mean your anxiety is not the
problem.
It's usually the solution.
It's usually a part of youthat's working really hard to
(24:20):
try to fix something for you andhelp you with something.
And we're going to, that'swhere, that's where we're going
to land this conversation.
Jeff (24:25):
Right.
Well, keep going with that,Adam, because this, you've heard
us use the phrase a couple oftimes, having a relationship
with And for most of us, we're,we're trying to kick it out and
beat it with a stick and try toget it out of our house, like a,
like a, a pest in our home.
Adam (24:46):
Yeah, yeah.
How, how, and how's that workingfor you?
Jeff (24:49):
you can't.
Adam (24:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about that.
I think, but you know, before weend this conversation, let's
talk the role that anxiety isThe last thing we want to do,
and I hope to the listener you,really lean in The last thing we
want to do is shame anyone'sanxiety.
The reality is anxiety is tryingto Anxiety at its core is a
(25:15):
survival mechanism designed toprotect us.
It's like the mind's way ofalerting us to potential danger,
perceived threats.
It pushes us to take action tostay safe.
In this sense, anxiety has goodIt's trying to keep, you know,
keep us aware and prepared,whether that's helping us plan
(25:37):
for future challenges or, uh,avoid risks, meet deadlines.
It's a signal that somethingneeds our attention and it often
feels overwhelming.
feels very uncomfortable, uh,but still its role is to ensure
that we are vigilant.
We are equipped to respond tosituations that, that might
compromise or hurt our wellbeingor the wellbeing of people we
(25:59):
love.
And so when properly understood,anxiety can be, let me say it
this way.
When properly understood andproperly led related, related
to.
In a healthy way, anxiety can bea really helpful part of us that
motivates us to, to makedecisions that support our
growth and safety.
(26:20):
And you know, Jeff, you and I
Jeff (26:22):
this, Adam, the, you're hinting at but you didn't come
out and to follow up with just a
Adam (26:31):
yeah, yeah.
Jeff (26:33):
Are you saying God made us a way as to
Adam (26:41):
Well, it's, it's certainly, uh, baked into the
human experience.
I mean, there's no way tonavigate life in a world that's
in a world that's unsafe.
Um, and not feel anxious.
And if, if properly understood,anxiety is not the thing that's
wrong with you, that you need tofix or shame or, you know, get
(27:04):
better in order for you to feelokay with yourself or for God or
whoever to feel okay with you.
Anxiety is not the thing aboutyou that's broken that needs to
be fixed.
It's, it's the very thing aboutyou that makes you human.
And it's a, it's an invitation.
To love, really.
I mean, it's an invitation toexperience God's mercy and grace
and kindness The thing thatkeeps us from experiencing God's
(27:26):
kindness to us in anxiety Isusually our lack of kindness
toward ourselves closes thedoor, closes the door to his
kindness.
And, um, and so that's, that'sthe, thing is, can you see your
anxiety through the eyes of loveas a part of you that's trying
(27:46):
to help you?
If you, if you see it as a, apest in your house that you need
to push out the door or beat itwith a stick, as you were saying
earlier, that's, it's, it's onlygoing to dig in its heels.
It's only going to get moreanxious and more out of control.
Um,
Jeff (28:03):
earlier, I think recently personally both on the podcast
and, uh, in but about the movieinside out
Adam (28:16):
oh yeah.
So
Jeff (28:17):
because it's main, uh, what I want to conflict how a
person anxiety.
Adam (28:28):
Mm
Jeff (28:30):
mean, you've, you've always done such an excellent
job of explaining through, butwhy don't you tell us about,
tell us about the role ofanxiety in
Adam (28:39):
Yeah, so in Inside Out 2, Riley's now in middle school,
you know, and she's, she'sanxious.
There's a, there's a, if youhaven't seen the film, the
supporting cast Riley'semotions, which are personified.
And in the second film, as Imentioned, anxiety is introduced
as the new emotion.
That reflects her experience ofmoving into adolescence.
(29:00):
And what you see in the movie ishow anxiety steps in over and
over to protect Riley by warningher of potential dangers and
uncertainties.
she's facing all kinds of newchallenges like puberty and
social pressures and going to anew school with new friends
being, you know, academicexpectations you know, all her
(29:21):
raging hormones.
And she's, she's going throughall this change and anxiety
steps in however, you know, asyou and I both know, Jeff, while
anxiety's intentions are to keepher safe, can also overwhelm
there's a really powerful scene.
(29:42):
You remember the scene late inthe movie where anxiety's
totally spun out?
And running around the controlboard and Riley's mind.
And I mean, literally spinningaround and around and, uh,
Riley's having a panic attack.
You can, you can see what'sgoing on inside of her where
anxiety is spun out.
And then you can see what'sgoing on outside of she's having
(30:02):
this panic attack.
And
Jeff (30:04):
And it is interesting too, like all the, you know, it is a
movie where these emotions buteach of the other emotions have
feelings about
Adam (30:14):
that's right.
Yeah,
Jeff (30:16):
So it's not just Riley's experience, but it's the other
parts of
Adam (30:24):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (30:25):
has this kind of global impact you know, I, my friends
have described it as like peopleon an inner tube in the water, a
relationship to one another inrole.
And if it's over functioning, itcauses all kinds of panic
Adam (30:44):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
And Joy, uh, the character, the,the emotion Joy inside Riley,
uh, played by Amy Poehler, um,Anxiety played by Maya Hawke,
they're the main two that arekind of at each other.
You know, in the first film itwas Joy and Sadness, and they
learned at the end of the film,spoiler alert, that the only way
(31:06):
For the, for Riley to flourishas if they are integrated and
they befriend one another andthey have to actually, they
actually have to have eachexist.
You can't have one without theother.
And in this film, it's joy andanxiety who are trying to,
they're on their own.
There's a lot of tension betweenthem and they're, they're on
this journey of, befriendingeach other.
(31:26):
And what happens in that scenewhere Riley's totally spun out
or anxiety is totally spun out,uh, joy moves toward anxiety.
You, you know, you see ithappening inside Riley's mind
and joy feels compassion for Andyou learn that that's, that's
the key.
I mean, if you can look at thepart of you that's anxious with
(31:47):
compassion and what happens isjoy guides anxiety to let Riley
and then the panic stops.
And when anxiety finally stepsback, she looks at joy bereft
and she says, this is a directquote.
I was just trying to and I'll behonest with you, Jeff.
(32:09):
I mean, I get emotional now whenI was in the theater, I lost it
during that I lost it.
I, I think I just felt, I feltso much myself of me anxiety
that are, that are trying toprotect me.
But what you realize, and I'dlove to hear your thoughts on
(32:30):
this you, realize in that momentall along anxiety was not the
antagonist Anxiety was just,just trying to and
Jeff (32:40):
sorry, I might have looked a little distracted in that
moment.
But our family's coming over fordinner tonight.
And one of my grand dogs justcame up to say hi to me Came in,
got a few she left.
Adam (32:54):
that's all you're good for.
Just, just a few scratches.
Jeff (32:59):
her anxious heart
Adam (33:02):
Yep.
Jeff (33:02):
was ready to come see peppa and Yeah, no, but yeah,
yeah, you are right and justtrying to protect I mean but
think about that think about theexact thing levels or story of
your anxiety my anxiety was It'scarrying the burden of having a
(33:28):
mom who was ill.
Um, and facing a world at timesI didn't anxiety was the energy
that moved me to try to figurethings You know, they say for
sixes, they, they don't describethemselves as smart or
(33:48):
intelligence, but street smart.
And, uh, there's a certain sensewhere I'm, I'm always observing
the world, trying to absorbwhatever I can, because I don't
feel like I'm enough to Uh,there's what, what security do
where can I find Um, And so our,our, that part of our heart that
(34:15):
carries anxiety is, it's a giftthat needs to be affirmed.
And that was part of what washappening is anxiety had good
plans at and other times wasover functioning in life and
actually get in the way andactually creating more harm for
and more harm for us.
(34:36):
Because when you sustain thatmuch in high levels of anxiety
for longer periods of time, thebody doesn't thrive And so we
Transcribed But, and that's oneof the ways that the Enneagram
actually becomes very helpful isthat we don't have to talk about
anxiety in generalized but weget to talk about it and how it
(34:57):
shows up very specifically.
And so in our next episode,we're actually going to walk
through each of the nine typesand talk about how each of the
nine types, anxiety shows up intheir and sort of like the
trailhead of a hiking trail.
It's going to be the path thatwhen you experience it, your
(35:18):
inclination is to want toindulge it.
But it's actually a path to becurious about and to walk
through rather than away It'slike a, like that old children's
book, going on a bear hunt,
Adam (35:34):
Oh yeah.
Jeff (35:35):
No, no grass, tall, wavy graph.
Adam (35:38):
Can't go around it.
Jeff (35:39):
go under
Adam (35:40):
Can't go over it.
Jeff (35:41):
got to go through it.
Adam (35:43):
Got to.
Jeff (35:43):
And your anxiety has something to teach you about the
And, and, uh, it, it actuallycan lead you to profound
intimacy with others.
you start to embrace, and, andintimacy with God.
When you start to embrace therole anxiety is playing in your
(36:03):
life.
Adam (36:04):
That's right.
Jeff (36:05):
It's not something that you have to be afraid of.
But the more that I attune and,uh, look towards my anxiety, the
more that it feels seen, itfeels and the better parts of
the more grounded parts actuallycan provide the kind of guidance
(36:29):
and protection And each day thatI walk, that's what's happening.
That anxious part of my heart isseeing, Oh, adult Jeff's going
to take care of us At least forthe morning walk.
We'll see what happens
Adam (36:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We'll see.
We'll see where we are aroundlunch, but, but right
Jeff (36:53):
That's so true.
Adam (36:54):
yeah,
Jeff (36:55):
it's so
Adam (36:56):
Well, thanks Jeff for, for unpacking that for us.
And I'm really excited aboutthese next couple episodes.
You know, that we're, we'regoing to talk about the role, as
you said, anxiety is, playingand how it shows up for each
Enneagram type.
And then, uh, two episodes fromnow, we're going to talk about
practices of self leadership.
Where, when you see anxiety, youcan not come at it with a
(37:18):
broomstick or whatever weapon ofchoice, but you can actually
have, uh, some, some healthyresponses we call healthy self
leadership and ways that you cannavigate your anxiety when it
shows up.
So, yeah.
Thank you for joining us forthis discussion about anxiety
and the Enneagram.
Uh, if you found this helpful,be sure to like, and subscribe,
(37:40):
and share this episode with afriend.
And, you know, don't forget toask us your questions.
You can reach out to us in thecomments, or email us at info at
your Enneagram coach.
com.
And we'll hope, hope you'll joinus for the next couple of
episodes as we continue thisconversation.
Like I said, in our nextepisode, Jeff and I are going to
talk about how each Enneagramtype experiences anxiety, and we
(38:01):
can't wait to see in thatepisode.
Thanks for joining us.
Have a great
Jeff (38:05):
Thanks, everybody.
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