October 21, 2024 • 55 mins
This week on the podcast, we're continuing to talk about anxiety by breaking down the ways each Enneagram type experiences and manifests anxiety. This episode is packed with practical insights that will help you identify and navigate your anxiety in a way that aligns with your type.
You'll learn:
- What anxiety triggers each Enneagram type
- How each type manifests stress—whether through overthinking, avoidance, or perfectionism
- Contextual examples that will help you see how anxiety plays a role in your life
Why understanding your anxiety patterns is the first step in practicing self-leadership
Thank you to our guest:
Adam Breckenridge - https://myenneagramcoach.com/coach/adam-breckenridge/
We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com.
FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources
Find an Enneagram Coach - https://myenneagramcoach.com/
Become an Enneagram Coach Course - https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/bec
#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Adam (00:00):
What is anxiety?
(00:01):
How does it impact eachEnneagram type?
And what are some ways that eachtype can respond to anxiety and
navigate it with more clarity?
Welcome to your Enneagram coach,the podcast, where we have
helped millions of people aroundthe world to discover, explore,
and become the person that youhave always longed to be.
(00:22):
My name is Adam Breckenridge.
I'm the director of coaching,and I am joined by my friend and
fearless co founder and JeffMcCord.
Jeff, welcome.
Jeff (00:34):
Hey, you know, it's interesting you use the word
fearless.
Well, I'm sensitive to the topictalking about anxiety.
Adam (00:40):
Yeah, I use it on purpose.
You don't have any anxiety,right?
Jeff (00:43):
No, no, no.
I dealt with that a long timeago.
Adam (00:47):
I've dealt with that.
I put that in its place.
Jeff (00:50):
right.
Uh, no role in my You know, Iwonder, there's a fun phrase
that I'm often use, uh, thatI've learned in the recovery
world.
But I first heard it from a longtimer from, he was AA, he said,
Hey Jeff, if you're, if it's notmessy, you're not doing it
right.
(01:10):
And you know, when I think aboutdoing any kind of personal
development work that if you'renot scared, you're probably not
doing it right.
And so I'm not sure the goal isto be fearless.
There, there's a certain senseto where if we're.
If we're engaging in new terrainin our hearts, there, there
ought to be fear because there'sopposition there.
(01:31):
Um, there's, there's unknowns,uh, in that land.
to actually venture towards it,be really, really scary.
Adam (01:39):
Yep.
Yep.
And, and, and, and, you know,not to get too far off topic
cause fear and anxiety arekissing cousins.
Right.
But, uh, but our fear gives us agift.
I think it might've been shipDodd who said, if I.
if I'm going to, I'm going to goto war, uh, I want to go to war
with people who are afraid.
Um,
Jeff (02:00):
You don't want idiots who are just like no fear whatsoever
and
Adam (02:04):
Yeah, I mean, that's right.
the fear is going to cause youto be careful.
It's going to cause you out foryourself and your, and those
around you and protect thosearound you.
So, yeah, I think if you're notdoing it scared, you're not
doing And, um, You know, whatwe're talking about in these
episodes is, um, you know, arelative to fear, which is
(02:26):
anxiety.
And we're talking about how eachEnneagram type experiences
anxiety.
And just to briefly define it,as we did in the last episode,
anxiety can be a little.
elusive and difficult to pindown and define what exactly our
best stab at this would beanxiety is a common human
emotional experience that canmanifest, you know, mentally, it
(02:49):
can manifest in physiologicalresponses, but it's a common
human experience.
Sometimes there is situationalanxiety.
Which everyone faces.
This is work, bills, parenting,conflict, life, relationships.
And then there's also a chronicanxiety.
Think of this as more likeanxiety disorders that can, um,
(03:11):
that can really kind of hinderour ability to cope or function
with everyday life.
But I want to come back to thebasic.
understanding of this is acommon human emotional
experience that everyone,including every Enneagram type,
uh, experiences.
And so what we're going to do inthis episode is talk about how
each type experiences anxiety.
(03:32):
How does it show up?
What are the trail heads, youknow, of anxiety for each type?
And I think, you know, Jeff,we're going to do this in
triads.
So, um, do you want to kick usoff with the gut triad and talk
about eights, nines, and ones,and maybe what are some of the
common anxiety activators andwhat are the trail heads or how
(03:52):
does anxiety show up for thosetypes?
Jeff (03:55):
well, one of the phrases that we use, we use the term
core motivations a lot here atUnigram Coach.
And the number one is the corefear.
But as we talked a little bit inthe last episode, you could just
change out fear with anxiety.
There's a core angst in the soulof each of all the different
NIME types that really is thekey activator that that's what
(04:18):
sort of triggers it turns on theanxiety and all the other
relational style characteristicsof each Enneagram type.
So let's just take a look attype one for a second.
So the the The core fear isbeing wrong, bad or corruptible.
And so, uh, they're going to beactivated when there's this,
(04:39):
there's imperfections.
Um, there's criticism, there'sunmet high standards.
If people aren't takingresponsibility, uh, people
aren't following the rules,whether that be the, for
themselves or that, whether thatbe for others, right?
Because each of the subtypeskind of, they're, they're
different.
That inner critic is fighting sowhat this can look like at times
(05:01):
is that for the one is thatthey're feeling stressed, that
something's out of order orincorrect.
So there's a, unwarranted focus.
an obsessiveness about beingright.
Um, when you hear about, uh, it,it's the resentment that the
(05:22):
ones are continuously caringwhen people aren't living up to
expectations or doing the thingsthat they want to do now, that's
going to be hard for the one torecognize, or maybe they'll
recognize the resentment, butthey won't recognize the real
anger that's behind all of that.
And they certainly wouldn't wantto say that they're actually Um,
(05:43):
you know, whenever, you know,the one as a child, their
anxiety shows up by takingresponsibility in areas where
they felt like their parentsweren't.
And so responsibility can be atrailhead a type one,
specifically whenever they'reexperiencing anxiety.
what comes to mind for you whenyou think of type ones and how
(06:04):
anxiety shows up for them?
Adam (06:07):
I think initially because we're in an election season.
Uh, for type ones can, can fallinto a bit black and white
thinking right or wrong, good orbad.
And so an opposing viewpoint.
Can, can be a real activator,you know, can, can be something
that really causes anxiety toget triggered.
There can, you know, and for atype one, you know, you're
(06:30):
operating in anxiety.
If you have, um, a small windowof tolerance for a different
viewpoint.
You know, um, and if, if you'refalling into the black and white
thinking, um, you know, and, andthen again, just kind of like
you mentioned, the, the, theclassic example is, uh, just
mistakes, not being able toembrace the gift of their own
(06:52):
imperfections.
Um, seeing the imperfections inthemselves and the inner critic
really exaggerating the anxietyof, you need to fix this, you
need to reform this, You need toget better, you know, better
than this.
Um, those moralistic innercritics.
Uh, really amp up and exaggeratethe anxiety.
Um, and
Jeff (07:11):
Adam, it that makes me realize that, you know, perhaps
with the type ones, and be sureto put in the comments and let,
let's support one another inthis there's a great phrase
that, uh, a mentor from adistance that both Adam and I
have Steve Cuss, who's written alot about anxiety.
Um, he's got, uh, theexpectation gap I think now and
(07:32):
also managing leadershipanxiety, which is, um.
Leadership is a broad term forhim.
That's for anybody inrelationship.
Really?
It's not just in organizationshe says you have to name it to
tame it And what we're trying todo is to help you to name things
and so if you're a type one Orany type as we're going through
(07:54):
this, why don't you try to namewhere your anxiety is coming
from and how it shows up?
Cause it's not just showing upfront and center.
You may call it something else.
And so you may be learningsomething, but let's just help
one another out to learn how toname what's together,
particularly for do.
(08:15):
But you know, it makes me thinkof when, For the type six, it's
the racing thoughts.
It's the flywheel of thoughtsthat go through a mind that is
an easy indicator of anxiety.
But what you just described forthe type one, it's the inner
critic.
If your inner critic is out ofcontrol, that's anxiety.
Adam (08:32):
yep.
Anxiety.
Jeff (08:33):
That is your way of trying to handle fear in your
Adam (08:36):
Yeah.
Jeff (08:37):
to make things right.
And it's going to get, it's,it's hyper focused.
It's hypercritical.
Um, it's just, disproportionate.
To what is Well, why don't wemove on?
So the goal here in thisparticular episode is that we're
going to be naming it now in thenext episode We're going to be
(08:58):
talking about well what to dowhenever you start to find your
own heart at at unrest itdisorganized the Oh, it spun out
as a term that Beth and I use,uh, whenever we feel a little
disorganized or, uh, feel likewe're not on our best game.
But let's talk about the Type8s.
(09:19):
Now, Type 1s and Type 8s seem tooften always have their
composure and, um, are, uh,Maybe a little less influenced
by other people.
And we think, oh man, they,they're never anxious.
They always know what to do.
Um, and they're, they alwaysthink that they're doing
something right.
They always think they're doingit the right way.
Right.
But you know, for the, A, their,their core anxiety, say, is
(09:44):
being controlled or harmed,being powerless.
And the disproportionateresponse to that is always be in
power and don't be vulnerable.
Be impenetrable by other peopleand relationships.
(10:05):
Now whether that be cultural,where they try fiercely to live
the independent life.
But to the degree that you aretrying to be independent
impenetrable, unharmable,there's anxiety that's fueling
all that.
And you know it's anxiety toobecause you know what happens
for a lot of twos and a lot ofeights is that eventually their
(10:28):
bodies catch up with them andthey start to experience
sickness because they can'tmanage life.
You're not intended.
You're human being withlimitations.
You're a human being withboundaries and you can't carry
it all and so there'll be allkinds of other little sideways
(10:49):
behaviors and thoughts andBehaviors that'll try to help
you to cope with the pressurethat you have put on yourself to
not be harmed I was about to sayAndrew.
I don't know why I was going toI don't even know an Andrew.
I was thinking maybe there's anAndrew who's an eight.
I don't know.
Adam, what comes to mind for youwhen you think of the type
Adam (11:10):
well, first of all, anytime someone calls me by the
wrong name, I use what is aclassic old man joke.
And if, if you're a listener andyou don't know this joke, You're
welcome.
And it's, Uh, can call mewhatever you want.
Just don't call me late fordinner.
I don't know.
I mean, are you familiar withthis joke?
Jeff (11:31):
Uh, Adam, there, there are times where you give us an
insight into Arkansans, I'veheard you pronounce it.
And I think that was one of thembecause, uh, I've not ever heard
that
Adam (11:44):
You didn't have that one in Texas growing up in Mesquite,
Jeff (11:46):
me late for dinner.
Adam (11:48):
Yeah.
You can call me whatever youwant.
Just Don't call me late fordinner.
How about
Jeff (11:51):
one from Liam Neeson, uh, in Airplane, Don't Call Me
Shirley?
Adam (11:55):
Wait, wait, not Liam Neeson.
Liam Neeson is the, uh, is thelike taken guy.
Who's like, uh, All I can thinkabout now is Liam Neeson and
airplane, and that would be anamazing
Jeff (12:12):
Dude.
Well, I mean,
Adam (12:13):
You're thinking of
Jeff (12:14):
not to, say that I've ever watched the show, but I know
that he makes an appearance inthe movie Ted where he's talking
about, uh, our tricks for kids.
Adam (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, You're thinking of Leslie Nielsen.
His,
Jeff (12:30):
same initials.
It was close.
Adam (12:32):
Don't call me Shirley.
Jeff (12:34):
Don't
Adam (12:34):
Sure.
Surely you can't be serious.
And he says, I am serious.
And Don't call me.
Jeff (12:44):
Okay.
Adam (12:46):
All right.
Oh, Hey, we've annoyed
Jeff (12:50):
that just, that's, that's what just happened.
That's how we deal with ouranxiety.
Adam was concerned aboutaddressing the anxiety of an
eight for fear of offending themand or Jeff was and so then I
just went on this long joke ofgoing through actors with the
letters L and N and uh,different phrases they've used
(13:11):
in the various movies they'vebeen part of.
So there you go.
Adam (13:14):
And now all the eights, the eights are offended were
about to get, deeper into theexample of how anxiety shows up
and then we went on our, we wenton our tangent and so there's,
they're still waiting, they're,they're waiting on us to, to,
Jeff (13:27):
We're exercising.
Maybe they're getting anxiousand angry with us.
Adam (13:31):
Yeah.
How does it make you feel as youguys are listening and waiting?
Um, what are you feeling rightnow that, uh, rage that you're
noticing is a cold anxiety.
But you know, I think here's aline and you know, every, every
line I have, I, you know, everycliche or line I have, I took
someone else, but, um, a goodway to think about anxiety if
(13:53):
you're as an eight, you may belistening to this and thinking,
no, no, no, no, I don't feelanxious.
I don't ever walk in a room andfeel anxious.
I I'm self assured.
I feel, um, confident on my owntwo feet.
I can walk in any room and I'mthe leader.
Um, I don't feel anxious, butit's helpful to say, no, this is
your anxiety.
Like we, like we did with thetype one, like the inner critic.
(14:15):
Um, that, that is, that is youranxiety, um, for the six, the
worst case scenario thinking,um, that is your anxiety, uh,
for an eight, your bravado oryour strength, your bigness, um,
Your rage.
Don't think of rage.
Like the incredible Hulk Rage isjust big energy and your, your
(14:38):
bravado often is your anxiety.
And here's the, here's the line.
Anxiety is me trying to getbigger than, than the fear
that's inside of an
Jeff (14:49):
you mentioned it in the last episode that oftentimes, if
you're getting big because ofsomeone else's anxiety, it's
because you're afraid ofanxiety.
Adam (14:58):
You're anxious.
Yeah.
And so the, the, the, the thingis, it's, it's, it's like a dog
shows it's showing its teeth,right?
Like you would look at the dogand you're going, man, he's
tough and big and strong.
And loud and aggressive.
And I don't want to mess withhim, but if you could, if you
could zoom inside the, the soulof the dog or the mind of the
(15:20):
dog, kind of the way we get tosee inside Riley's mind and
inside out, you would know thatthe dog is afraid.
The dog is anxious.
That's, that's why the dog is,is displaying bravado.
He's, he's using his strategy,uh, to protect himself.
And, and this is, this is oftenfor an eight, how it shows up.
(15:42):
And, you know, if you feel likesomeone, here's some situational
examples.
If you're in a situation whereyou feel like someone is going
to try to take advantage of youor manipulate you, um, someone's
going to try to use their powerand position to mistreat you or.
Someone that's in your circle,aides are very protective of
those in their circle andthey're very protective of the
(16:04):
vulnerable.
And if you feel like someoneelse is going to pose a threat,
you have, there's an anxietyabout that.
And that's a good thing.
That's where I'm saying is like,Jeff and I were trying to say
that not anxiety by default isnot bad.
It's trying to, trying to help.
Um, You know, so these are justsome examples of, of how it
might show up.
(16:25):
If, if you feel attacked, youknow, if you feel restricted or
controlled, um, if you feelthreatened in some way, you're
going to notice the, thestrength emerge and most likely
that is your anxiety.
Jeff (16:41):
That's awesome, Adam.
I really appreciate it.
I even think of, uh, yeah, we'vebeen recently been attending a
few different, um, large groupgatherings and, uh, and as I
talk about AIDS, they, they,oftentimes, and as I talk with
AIDS, they sometimes boast abouthow much they don't care.
(17:01):
And that was the equal butopposite error, but that is that
is defined by I'm going to be sofiercely independent.
my independency I mean, evenbeing in a room that feels a
little leaderless.
the eight waiting to find out ifsomeone's going to lead or not,
Adam (17:21):
That's anxiety.
Jeff (17:22):
a, there's angst in the room that you may or may not
need to Now the great thing isthat there are eights who will
step in the gap when And ittakes, it certainly takes wisdom
to understand how to have aright relationship with an
anxiety But sometimes it couldbe for the eight to pay the path
(17:44):
to call someone else out to
Adam (17:47):
Uh huh.
Jeff (17:48):
to help a leader.
Well, let's move on to typenine.
Uh, so type nine is their coreangst, their core anxiety, core
fear is the loss ofrelationship, the loss of
connection.
And so when the reason why theyhave so much trouble with.
Arguments with conflict isbecause of the anxiety that it
creates in them that this is thebeginning of the end.
(18:10):
That this is how they're goingto lose connection.
So how much stress they feel,um, whenever there's even
disagreements between otherfamily members that may not even
be related to them.
So they've lost a sense of Uh,carrying a sense of just nines,
read the room, they can feel theangst, the anxiety in the room.
(18:31):
And sometimes that can behelpful, but sometimes it's a
real burden for them becauseit's, was telling someone, it's
almost like the, uh, superpowersthat come with, uh, the
characters in the movies X inthe movie X Men that they need
to learn how to yield.
This gift that they um, wantingto move to solutions, losing
(18:54):
your sense of identity in orderto get to a solution to make
people happy.
That, that's anxiety that'smotivating What comes to mind
for you, Adam?
Adam (19:03):
Yeah.
I think about my, you know, I'm,I'm, I'm really close to type
nines.
You know, my wife is a typenine.
And so when I think aboutcontext and, you know,
contextual examples for her,it's like if, if she and I are
having a confrontation, she'sprobably most likely a one to
one nine with me.
And so if we're having aconfrontation or a disagreement,
(19:26):
I can see the anxiety and, and,and, and she, you know, she
doesn't pursue, it's more likeshut down.
That's how anxiety shows up forher.
And so if you're a nine and youfall into, um, sort of a
relational narcolepsy, you know,of just, I'm going to disappear,
which is also the thing they'remost afraid of is, you know,
being overlooked.
(19:47):
And, but it's like, I'm, I'mgoing to, to disappear.
I'm going to withdraw.
That is her anxiety.
That's it.
It, that's, that's how it'sshowing up.
And, um, now I also see heranxiety show up in an anger,
know, she's in that gut triad,right?
So there's a, there's a, there'sa common desire for justice.
(20:11):
And, you know, our eights andones friends are very attuned to
this as well.
But if she, if she perceivesthat there's a justice, you
know, being overlooked, youknow, uh, people not receiving
justice, someone's being, um,You know, the marginalized or
the, the defenseless are being,you know, harmed in some way.
Like there's a, there's an angstand an anger that shows up and
(20:34):
it, it is an anxiety of, I'vegot to do something about this.
Somebody has to do somethingabout this, you know?
And again, that's, that's,that's, that part of her is, Has
good intentions, you know, um,but that's what comes to me for
the nine, you know, chaos, um,any, you know, where, where
(20:54):
there seems to be chaos and alack of unity, uh, whether
that's just in the, in our homeor relation in certain
relationships, like all of thoseare, are, are contexts where the
anxiety is going to, but mostlywith me.
It mostly if, if, if she, if sheand I are having a disagreement
that doesn't get resolved,that's, that's where that's
going to be the main trigger foranxiety and it'll show up in her
(21:17):
sort of disappearing,
Jeff (21:20):
It is interesting to, even as we put these themes together
and now we're kind of blendinginto subtypes, is that how each
type experiences anxiety can bedirectly tied to their subtype
as well.
Mm hmm.
So, if you, if you've gone thatfar or maybe want to be
interested in something maybeit's not just with your anxiety,
it's not just with one person,but with a group of communal
(21:45):
anxiety, uh, to take a look atsome of the subtypes because
that could really answer some ofthe questions that people may
have where, where does theiranxiety Well, let's take a look
at the heart trend and I'll letyou, uh, lead off on each of
the, the two threes and fours.
Adam (22:00):
absolutely.
Yeah.
So let's talk about our type twofriends.
The core.
Angst as you said, Jeff, or thecore anxiety, core fear a type
two, is that fear of beingunloved Or unwanted?
Um, there's an anxiety thatcomes from not, not feeling
appreciated, not feeling wanted,not feeling needed.
(22:23):
Um, you know, that's the, the,the.
core desire of a two is just, isto be loved and wanted, um, for
who they are.
And so if that need, I mean,that's a, and that's a basic
need for every human being, buttwos have a particular, um,
desire for that and a particularvulnerability needing that.
And if that need is not beingmet, there is an anxiety that's
(22:46):
going to show up.
And you know, uh, it's almostlike a separation anxiety, um,
of, I don't, I I'm not sure Ibelong and matter with the
people I want to belong andmatter with.
And so there's the, there's agap between me and this person
and all the tension.
Uh, and, uh, and, and here's,here's one way it often shows
(23:09):
up.
Anxiety can show up in the formof shame of like, maybe I'm not
wanted.
Maybe I'm not.
Maybe I'm unwanted, you know,maybe I'm
Jeff (23:18):
even when I think of twos, I think of how much they insert
their presence into otherpeople's lives.
So a two, in order to addresstheir own fears around being
unwanted, will insert themselvesinto the lives of others, so
that others don't feel unwanted,hoping that ease their own
anxiety about how they
Adam (23:39):
And let me say this, you, you, you talk about inserting
yourself, like, like be a movinginto someone else's life.
Um, here's one way, you know,your anxiety shows up as a two
is if you're exhausted, if youare, um, feel really
underappreciated yet you'repouring out, if you're over
(24:02):
functioning, Uh, in people'slives, you're people pleasing,
these are these, it's like, it'slike the Jeff Foxworthy, like,
there's your sign.
Remember that from the nineties?
It's like,
Jeff (24:15):
Well, but that wasn't, that wasn't Jeff Foxworthy,
Adam (24:18):
Well, it wasn't.
Jeff (24:19):
No, it was the other guy.
I don't remember his name.
He was the shorter guy.
Um, not Larry, the cable guy.
Adam (24:28):
Ron.
Jeff (24:29):
No, that was the drinking guy.
Adam (24:32):
yeah.
Okay.
Well here,
Jeff (24:35):
Google it.
Hold on just a
Adam (24:36):
who, who,
Jeff (24:37):
cause you corrected my Liam Neeson reference earlier.
So,
Adam (24:43):
in, in the naked gun
Jeff (24:45):
Bill Ingvall.
Ha ha.
Gotcha.
Adam (24:48):
Ingvall.
You did get me.
Here's your sign.
Jeff (24:50):
Yeah.
Adam (24:52):
He's the one that did, here's your sign.
Jeff (24:54):
He did.
Yeah.
He tells stories about statingthe obvious.
Adam (24:59):
Okay.
Well, Bill Ingvall, but it's,it's like, here's your anxiety.
You know, it's like, if you wantto know how it's showing up, if
you're, if you're exhausted,over functioning, there it is.
Jeff (25:10):
Yep.
There it is.
It was funny.
I was, uh, we were doing amarriage retreat.
So Beth and I did our firstextended marriage retreat,
Enneagram, uh, really formarriages.
Uh, it was an incredibleexperience and we were so
impacted by, uh, the willingnessof these couples to follow our
(25:31):
lead and.
To trust us and we are sothrilled to see the impact of
what it meant for them to beable to have conversations with
new language but one guy Came upto me it was actually over
dinner and he said hey Jeff, youknow, you're a funny guy Then
you'll make these reallyprovocative questions and go
(25:54):
really deep Because do you useyour your humor to kind of
diffuse a room?
I was like, you can, you can getout of my kitchen.
Like you're,
Adam (26:06):
for sure.
Yeah,
Jeff (26:08):
using other things to diffuse the anxiety is common
for all the
Adam (26:14):
that's right.
Jeff (26:16):
just the way that we cope with talk about type three.
Adam (26:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The core anxiety cause for athree or is that core angst or
core fear is a fear failure.
a fear of being unworthy, uh, ofsuccess.
a fear of others looking back atAre you looking at yourself?
Are you looking at otherslooking back at With, with eyes
(26:42):
of disappointment anddisapproval.
Um, you're not enough, you know,you're a
Jeff (26:48):
I felt the, I feel anxiety when you just said that when
someone's looking back at youwith the eyes of disappointment,
like yeesh,
Adam (26:54):
yeah, Nobody wants
Jeff (26:56):
that
Adam (26:57):
nobody wants that.
Nobody wants that.
And for the three, again,there's a particular fear of
that.
And, and I have a lot ofcompassion for my three friends
who carry that.
And you know, that, that anxietyoccurs when they feel that
they're just when they're notbeing productive, they're not,
they're not being productive.
They're not being successful.
They're not, They're not, youknow, being recognized for their
(27:19):
achievements.
That's the core anxiety causefor them.
And then, you know, there's lotsof contextual examples of how
this shows up.
You know, it's, it's, it canshow up in a, uh,
overperforming.
If you're a three and you, uh,You are exhausted from pouring
out and performing and doing,um, you know, that.
(27:41):
that's, that's a good sign thatthat's your anxiety, you know,
um, when you feel like you haveto, to, uh, constantly be
getting better, you know,there's a fine line between self
development and anxious selfdevelopment, like what I would
call compulsive.
Self development, you know,there's a compulsivity to the,
(28:03):
to, I've got to get better.
I've got to, I've got tooutcompete this cannot lose, you
know, there's a differencebetween, um, doing your best and
having to be the best.
I mean, if you're doing yourbest as a three, and this is
what we do, we tell, we tellthis to our kids all the time.
If they've got a test or asoftball game or something, it's
(28:23):
like, Hey, do your best.
That's all we can ask.
And if you strike out, youstrike out.
You know, I mean, it's okay thatyou have feelings about striking
out.
It's okay that that makes youangry.
It's okay that that's okay.
But just if you're doing yourbest, then you're doing your
best.
but if you have to be the uh,that's a pressure that the soul
can't sustain.
(28:44):
And I'm telling you, it, it's,it's a recipe for anxiety.
It is your anxiety.
What, what about you, Jeff?
What, what, what comes to mindfrom the three?
Jeff (28:51):
Well, I, I'm starting to realize that I, I, as I think
about each of the types, thisidea of projection, uh, is
coming to mind for me a lot inthese themes because some, I
just think so much like for athree, threes when working in
teams and groups, like they getreally frustrated with
incompetent leaders.
(29:13):
Or teams that aren't functioningefficiently or family.
That's not going along with theplans that they've made for the
family, whether it like bevacation or just getting through
the, the weekend, um, sports,let's say, and the schedule that
needs to take place.
So whenever, Other people aren'tcoming through the way that they
(29:33):
want them to come through.
They're projecting this sense ofit of anxiety of we, we, this is
the schedule.
This is the efficient way.
This is the productive way andwe need to be efficient and
productive.
Uh, despite who we may, what wemay be feeling or experiencing
in our life, you have to keepproducing.
And that's where the anxiety iscoming from from the type three.
(29:55):
Now they're the ones that can bethe most, Disengaged from their
heart.
And so a three may not name itas anxiety.
They may name it as frustrationum, they may or may not even be
willing to name that they'refeeling something and The family
may all be looking at them likewe can tell you're upset about
(30:16):
But you're not telling us butit's all over your mind Face and
we can read it from your body,your nonverbal, but the idea I
think of projection is a way ofunder seeing a trail head of
what am I holding other peoplethat maybe I'm, that I'm anxious
about in my own
Adam (30:35):
Yeah.
Can I put it in a word?
Here's, here's a word.
If that my three friends oftentry to disguise their anxiety as
this word and it's the wordambition.
Um, nothing wrong with ambition.
I mean, that's, those arevirtues, but oftentimes we, we,
(30:57):
we try to sort of baptize ouranxiety as this is, this is just
ambition.
I'm just trying to, I'm justtrying to do my best, you know,
I'm just, and it's, and what'sthat saying of every person that
died on Mount Everest was once ahighly ambitious person.
Um, you know, Ambition is avirtue.
So, you know, my favorite thingto say these days, especially
(31:20):
when people like to take soundbites and take things out of
context.
uh, but my favorite thing to sayis don't hear what I'm not
saying.
Um, I'm not saying ambition isbad.
I'm saying it's, it's like inthe same way that the eight
might say, no, this is just mystrength.
I'm just, this is, this iscalled confidence.
Well, yeah, but there's a goldand shadow side to that.
(31:41):
The gold is, is your ambitioncan, can, can take you to great
places make everybody around youbetter.
But the shadow side of yourambition is that it's a comp,
it's actually a compulsivitythat doesn't know how to stop.
And that's anxiety.
What you call ambition isactually anxiety.
Does that make sense?
Jeff (32:01):
Yep.
It does.
Adam (32:02):
Well, let's talk about force.
Um, let's talk about force.
Uh, Round out the heart triadhere.
So the, the, the core anxietycause the core angst or core
fear four friends is really afear of not having a, an
identity or personalsignificance.
It's an, it's an anxiety causedby feelings of inadequacy,
(32:26):
especially being misunderstood.
really the, the shame of beingmisunderstood causes a, a, a
strong angst for the four.
Um, you know, if, if, if, ifthey're, if they're feeling as
though they're not seen asspecial, honored, as special.
If, if, you know, if, if, ifyou're not valuing their
(32:47):
uniqueness, um, there's, there'sjust an, there's a, there's an
angst that they carry.
Another way that anxiety showsup is by internalizing other
people's pain.
You know, uh, fours have anincredible gift for empathy and
for sitting in a place of Uh,but there can be some
transference that happens there.
(33:08):
And so stories about peoplehurting or in despair or
situations that appear hopelesstoo much four.
And these, these are things thatcan activate that anxiety.
Uh, but what, what, what goes onin you when you think about the
four?
As they relate to anxiety?
Jeff (33:27):
a few experiences that I've had, uh, with type fours,
uh, one would be, I, I hear theache in their heart whenever
they share stories of theirfantasy Fours have a tendency to
fantasize conversations andrelationships and they will
predict or forecast, uh, howconversations are going to go or
(33:50):
what people will say about themfeel about them.
And they experience it as ifit's If you're, if you're
fantasizing about conversations,that's, that's anxiety think
too, it's, it's kind of aninteresting phenomena if you've
been around fours a lot, andparticularly if you're close to
them where they kind of lettheir guard down.
(34:12):
But sometimes I experience thearrogance in order to compensate
for what they perceive asinadequacy, or maybe that
they're too unique or flawed,that they actually come across
as arrogant and certain.
(34:32):
Like no one can understand depthof this topic, this artist,
this, uh, procedure the way thatI can.
And it, it's almost as a way ofdealing, we're not having to
deal with the angst that'sinside their heart, that they're
(34:53):
going to force you to understandtheir value.
It's very nuanced, but I, it,it, it always surprises it'd be
like with a six to be quitehonest with you.
Cause I, a lot of peopleexperience me as strong and
decisive.
And, but, uh, that is purely acoping mechanism because there's
(35:16):
a lot of fear on the other sideof it.
It just shows up in a particularway in my various And so it, I
quite, Jeff describes himself asbeing and anxious, but yet he
comes across strong and arrogantdecisive, like he doesn't want
your feedback and he's justmaking a decision.
(35:37):
sometimes that kind of strengthis actually anxiety
Adam (35:41):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (35:41):
And I've just experienced that sometimes with fours.
Adam (35:45):
Mm-Hmm.
.Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the four you get.
Sometimes the, um, I think whereI see anxiety show up sometimes
is just in a, just in a, aheightened sensitivity.
If it just, there's, there'sjust a, um.
Almost like an intolerance for,uh, for, for anything really.
(36:09):
and so, you know, when you getto That place of every there's,
there's a constant defensivenessand, um, and that's, that's,
that's anxiety, you know?
Um, Jeff, why don't you finishus out with the head triad and
we get to dive deeper into,deeper into, deeper into our own
type here.
Jeff (36:26):
it was fun.
We were recently at the, um, momat mom con and a wonderful
experience.
And so fun to.
with all of our listeners of thepodcast and people who follow us
on Instagram.
So, uh, super, super fun.
But, you know, here we were inthe context of, Thousands of
(36:48):
women, um, and, uh, we would runinto fives and they were always
like, I know I'm, there'sprobably not many of us here.
And there, there actuallyweren't that many fives there.
And, um, they definitely werethe quieter ones.
And, uh, but you know, they werethere and, uh, they were, there
were probably more of them thanwhat we, uh, would have
expected, at least what theywould have expected.
(37:09):
But, the core anxiety of thefive is being overwhelmed or
depleted.
Anxiety arises from a lack oftime, space, or energy in order
to And, you know, if, for thefive, the way this shows up is
if they find themselvesincreasingly trying to get away.
(37:34):
Where maybe they're, they, maybethey're like these moms at mom
con where they've got young kidsthat there's, there's really not
an opportunity to get away, um,that they, they have to be
present, but they're alwaysthinking about trying to get
away.
That's that sense of anxiety.
(37:54):
You know, I think too, uh,Whenever five start to,
disproportionately focus onstudying the nuances of a
particular topic that areunnecessary to meet the needs of
the in order to know all thedetails about how it That can be
(38:15):
a form of anxiety.
Now, it can also be sort of likea hobbyist and just simply done
out of playful curiosity andintrigue, like the engineer who
wants to understand how, youknow, the, the toy works.
And so they disassemble thingsin order to put it back together
to see how it works.
So it can function for the fivein both ways, but the fives will
(38:35):
know that whenever, or at leastthey know the experience of
when.
They get obsessively focused ona topic and give more and more
The other thing is the, theavoidance of feeling incompetent
or uninformed, that it, itactually creates anxiety for
(38:57):
them.
That, that is anxiety for them,is trying to avoid Anything else
you'd add?
Adam (39:05):
Yeah, I think the only thing I would add?
is, um, because a lot of fiveswill hear you, we'll hear you
say, um, increasingly trying towithdraw and they will, they
will just point out that that's,inerrant to their type.
I mean, they, they need, theyneed more time and space to
(39:25):
recharge.
Um, to, you know, and, and fiveslove solitude and, you know,
they're okay with, you know,more time to themselves.
The only thing I would say isthere's a fundamental difference
between solitude and isolation.
And so, um, if you areisolating, And that is where you
are putting up, you know,proverbial walls, thick, tall
(39:50):
walls to keep other people out.
And you are retreating to your,to your intellectual world.
And that's the real estate whereyou're sort of camping out.
Um, and, and you're isolating,that is your anxiety.
Solitude is different.
Solitude is a basic human need.
Again, everybody needs it.
Even our type seven friends,either the or the most
(40:12):
extroverted pers person on theplanet, needs time alone to
themselves recharge, um, toreconnect, uh, solitude's a, a
need.
Uh, but, but if you'reisolating, uh, no one's meant
for that.
And, and that, that is youranxiety, the isolation, the,
the, the, the withdrawing.
Jeff (40:31):
You know, one thing that did come to mind as I was fives
do isolate themselves anddistance themselves relationally
is, uh, they deny their need ortheir experience of
Adam (40:47):
Mm
Jeff (40:49):
And a lot of fives would say like, they don't, don't have
feelings or they don't know howto explain what they're feeling.
They don't have words to That'sactually anxiety showing
Emotions are dangerous.
Uh, emotions can beoverwhelming.
You know, if one of the corelongings is for the, the five
(41:11):
that their needs are okay, andthat at some point as a young
child, they decided that theirneeds were a problem and that
they wanted to take care ofthemselves apart from parents
then, you know, emotions wouldsay like, no, I'm a person who
has needs, who needs attunementfrom parents.
So even isolation, like it's a,it is a movement of anxiety.
(41:38):
please come after Please comeand find me All right, let's
look at type six.
Now we're in the hood.
this always happens whenever weget to to the type you know,
we're just talking about theneighborhood we live in.
But, um, so the core angst ofthe six is being without support
(42:00):
or guidance.
it emerged, emerges frominsecurity and uncertainty.
so situations that we're facinglike now in I don't, I don't
know the rules to play by inorder to feel safe.
There are no rules,
Adam (42:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (42:17):
There's nothing that I can sense that I can find a sense of
control or power.
powerless.
And also there's a theme oflearned helplessness that's a
helplessness that's actually.
taught and caught by, uh, it'sreally all the types, feeling
powerless helpless and trying tofind mechanisms with, to adopt
(42:46):
safe again.
You know, Adam, I, the craziestthing I, we, when we're at this
mom con, I was thinking aboutour next event that we're going
to, which is the extraordinarywomen conference in Charlotte at
the end of October.
Adam (43:00):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (43:01):
well, as many of you know, when I think it was Hurricane,
is it Helen?
Helena?
Helen?
I but, um, it's the hurricanethat recently rocked North
Carolina, uh, and, easternTennessee.
Well, one of the highways to getto Charlotte is, uh, Has been
knocked out like it literally,some erosion that happened in
(43:24):
the highway collapsed.
Seriously, I, I probably spenttwo hours thinking about this.
I even went to Google maps tolook at it and to see which
different ways we're going tohave to go in order to drive to
get there.
But it was keeping me up tryingto figure it out.
And I was half asleep again,trying to figure out how in the
world we're going to get.
(43:44):
The Charlotte and how long is itgoing to take The answer was
simply clear.
Like there were things that Icould do.
There were Beth and I can breakup the trip and, uh, have a fun
little weekend together on ourway there.
And on our way back fears about,uh, did I make a mistake and not
booking a flight?
Uh, what's it, are we going tohave to go through these smaller
(44:06):
towns?
Are they're going to have someroad problems as well?
How are we going to make thisthing?
And that's just the idea.
Like, I don't, no one's going totell me what.
I'm going to have to figure thisout, but I was carrying it in a
very anxious way.
It wasn't about planning.
It was about something way morethan feeling worried about
future events, um, experiencingthe experiences of the body, my
(44:29):
anxiety shows up in my stomach,it my neck, but it's primarily
through the in my head.
Um, man, I, I, Regret's anotherbig one for me.
I, I know that regret is usuallyanxiety showing up that don't
make this kind of decisionagain.
Adam (44:47):
Hmm.
Jeff (44:48):
you know, I was the one that was responsible for
preparing all the items that weneeded to take for our booth Um
for this big event and we wereflying there So I had to make
sure that things were shipped tothe right place I are packed the
right things I didn't I made amistake and I regretted it But I
I thought that we could take abag Weighing 70 pounds.
(45:09):
It was actually 50, but then onthe way back, uh, I probably
spent at least two or threehours thinking through how to
make sure our bags were allwithin the 50 pound range so
that we could get it backwithout having
Adam (45:23):
You're like, I'm not going to make that mistake again.
Jeff (45:25):
That's right.
So regret's a big one.
How do you, how does youranxiety show up, Adam?
Adam (45:31):
Yeah, Well, also being a six and I think I'll, I'll say
this through, through the lensof subtypes, you know, I, I, I
mean you use all three subtypes,but I certainly identify more
with the self preservation sixthese days.
And so it usually shows up inobsessive thoughts about, um,
not having enough.
(45:51):
Fill in the blank, just nothaving enough, you know, not,
not being enough, not havingenough, not having what it
takes.
And some of that is,
Jeff (46:01):
food when we have I don't know.
Adam (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean that, and that's, that'sfunny.
that you mentioned that becauseI, um, you know, I love to, to
smoke meat and barbecue and I'malways super, Uh nervous about
checking the internaltemperature of food, you know,
before I serve it to my
Jeff (46:21):
that right?
Adam (46:22):
yeah, cause I don't want to be the ones to poison my
family and friends and beresponsible for their deaths,
you know?
Um,
Jeff (46:29):
Dude, that got serious really fast.
Adam (46:32):
that's where, see what I mean?
And, and Hey, there's youranxiety.
it gets to worst case scenarioreal fast, when you go from zero
to 60, you know, in threeseconds, um, two seconds or
whatever, that's, that's youranxiety.
And, um, you know, worst casescenario thinking, uh,
(46:53):
constantly seeking reassurance,the inability to trust yourself
and your own judgment, man,those are, those are all
manifestations of anxiety forthe six.
And I'm, I'm, all of those.
Yeah.
Jeff (47:07):
let's just talk about type seven, which is another type
that we might consider.
Sevens don't have anxiety.
They're all about having fun.
And, uh, always next to the newadventure.
But they carry a core angstabout them, a core fear of being
trapped in pain and deprived offreedom, the loss of decisions.
(47:27):
And so, whenever they start toexperience limitations or they
start to experience routine or,uh, heaven forbid, boredom,
there will be an angst aboutthem.
Now that anxiety is not going tolook the same as the type six or
the type four.
It's going to look unique to thetype seven.
(47:50):
But there's a sense ofrestlessness, of new experience,
new adventure, the newness ofthe next thing.
Uh, that's anxiety andperceiving that they are limited
or restricted that they may notbe.
That may just be normal humanboundaries and expectations and
responsibility, but those can beexperienced in an anxious heart
(48:13):
as a way of feeling trapped ordeprived of something.
And so they'll be anxiouslytrying to free themselves Um.
There's stories of people inpain and despair that forces
them to feel, uh, negativeemotions.
Can be very, um, uh, what, uh,activating for the type 7 to
(48:35):
feel anxiety.
They may kind of stay away fromcertain things that would help
make them feel or cause them tocertain emotions of sadness and
hurt.
They may want to avoid thosethings because they don't want
to, um, experience the negativein their perception.
And so there's this ongoingvigilance and angst of avoiding
(48:57):
anything that's going to benegative or pessimistic.
In your relationships with typesevens and coaching type sevens,
how do you see their anxiety
Adam (49:07):
Yeah, um, inability to stop, to be still, um, uh, uh,
you know, just constantly,almost compulsively asking the
question, what's next?
You know, um, and, and when, Ihave a, I have a friend who has
a, one of his sons, he's prettysure is a seven.
(49:29):
We're all pretty sure he's aseven and they're, they can be
in the middle of enjoying afamily movie night with popcorn
and snacks and they finally geteverything.
They've been looking forward toit all week and they get
everything spread out and hisson will, before they even take
the first bite, his son willsay, what are we doing tomorrow?
What are we going to do tomorrowmorning?
(49:50):
Dad, what are we doing?
What are we doing?
What are we doing after themovie?
And he'll say in a very nonshaming way, he'll say, Hey,
right now we're, focused onwhat's what's now, not what's
And, um, and, and we'll, we'll,we'll talk about what's next
soon, but right now we'refocused on what's next, what's
now, not what's next.
And I think for sevens, theinability to focus on what's
(50:11):
now, particularly being like,what's now inside of you.
What, where are you, where areyou emotionally?
Um, so if you're constant, ifyou're doing constant activity,
um, know, constant stimulation,overindulgence, you may call it
fun.
Uh, but if you are, you know,there's a, there's a concept
called pleasure stacking, uh,where it's like just one fun
(50:37):
thing after another, you know,just.
And, and nothing, I mean, a giftfrom
Jeff (50:42):
you know this to be true if you have ever planned a
Disney trip,
Adam (50:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (50:47):
where you overplan it and you end up just being exhausted
and upset that you did this toyourself.
Adam (50:53):
Yeah.
Well, you know, what's funny,the, uh, Jewish rabbis talk
about pleasure stacking as, aslike a, a command on the
Sabbath.
They say like the Sabbath is asnow day.
Remember when you were a kid andyou get a snow day and it's
like, this is a day, God says,do what you want to do.
Rest, I will keep the worldspinning while you play.
(51:14):
Uh, it's, it's an exercise intrusting God to let go of
everything and just play.
And so the Jewish rabbis wouldtalk about pleasure stacking,
eat, drink, be merry, have fun,like do the things that you want
to do and do it with God, butlike get out there and so
pleasure stacking is a great wayto enjoy your life.
But if it is your life, there'syour anxiety.
(51:37):
Uh, if it is your life.
anxiety and the inability to, tojust be present and be still and
not be distracted.
Um, and sevens feel it.
If you put them in a place whereyou take away their freedom or
they feel boxed in and they're,they have to sit there.
Um, and, and, you know, when I'mworking with a seven as a
(51:58):
client, I just, I'm so, I try tobe really gentle and
compassionate and just help themname that, that like the
fidgeting energy, howuncomfortable you are in the
wondering mind is becauseyou're, you're dying to get out
of this moment.
want to get out of here andthat's called anxiety and that's
okay.
Um, but that's Yeah, how itshows up.
I think
Jeff (52:19):
I'll end with this fun little story.
Um, the same mentor thatintroduced me to the Enneagram
here, we would go on walkstogether during seminary.
And, uh, there was one day wewere walking around campus and
we, uh, saw this guy running andwe were just admiring that this
guy was out there running onthis.
(52:39):
You know, side road to thehighway and we were admiring and
wishing we were runners and whatthat would mean for our health
and our weight and all thosedifferent things.
but a couple minutes later, acop goes down the same road with
their lights on
Adam (52:54):
that's why it was running.
Jeff (52:56):
and, uh, uh, my friend, uh, he's, he's a therapist as
well.
And he goes, you know, Jeff, We,uh, you know, we see people
running.
We always think, where are theygoing?
What are they striving But werarely ask the question, what
are they running And when Ithink about type sevens, like,
yeah, it's true that we mayadmire them for their fun and
(53:19):
want to participate and join inand think, ah, I wish my life
was something like that.
But, uh, oftentimes there, thatenergy can be coming from
anxiety where they're actuallyrunning from something that.
God's inviting him to understandtheir own core needs that their
hearts can rest
Adam (53:38):
Mm.
Hmm.
Jeff (53:40):
well friends, I hope you enjoyed today.
I hope this, as we began thisidea of naming it to tainment,
that hopefully you're findingsome insights in how Each of the
types how anxiety shows up in anunexpected ways Now once we talk
through these it may be veryclear to you like, oh, okay I
didn't realize that was anxiety.
(54:01):
And so hopefully that's helpful.
But if hey if put it in thecomments, uh, and be sure to
Yeah, be sure to email us butlet's make this a community
thing where How does anxietyshow up for your type in your
own experience?
And maybe that's going to behelpful to other types or people
who care dearly or inrelationship with a person of
(54:22):
your type.
Uh, so be sure to put in thecomments how anxiety is showing
up for you, uh, in your ownpersonal life.
In this next episode, we'regoing to pay the path for you in
order to tame it.
What does it look like that whenyou are experiencing anxiety,
what are you supposed to do withit?
If we are supposed to have arelationship with this, and this
is something that God has givenus, well, the, He gave it to us
(54:45):
for a reason, and it actuallydraws us closer to Him.
Now, we're not going tospiritually bypass and just
quote verses at you, but we'regoing to provide some helpful
things that take into accountall of your sense of humanity,
and the needs that you have as ahuman being, so that your heart
can come to rest.
To be seen, to be heard, to havea sense of support and
(55:05):
encouragement so that your heartcan come to rest and your
anxiety doesn't have to playsuch a significant role and
carry such a heavy burden.
So thanks for hanging out withus.
If you missed the previousepisode, where we're defining
anxiety, be sure to take alisten to that.
We've got one more.
We're going to talk through, uh,how each type, what practices
would be helpful for you and howto tame your anxiety.
(55:28):
Uh, be sure to leave, ask usyour questions in the comments,
or you can email us at info atyour Enneagram coach.
com.
Hope you'll join us next timefor our next episode, Adam.
It's always great to be withyou.
Adam (55:39):
Same.
We'll see in the next episode.
Jeff (55:41):
Thanks everybody.
What is anxiety?
(00:01):
How does it impact eachEnneagram type?
And what are some ways that eachtype can respond to anxiety and
navigate it with more clarity?
Welcome to your Enneagram coach,the podcast, where we have
helped millions of people aroundthe world to discover, explore,
and become the person that youhave always longed to be.
(00:22):
My name is Adam Breckenridge.
I'm the director of coaching,and I am joined by my friend and
fearless co founder and JeffMcCord.
Jeff, welcome.
Jeff (00:34):
Hey, you know, it's interesting you use the word
fearless.
Well, I'm sensitive to the topictalking about anxiety.
Adam (00:40):
Yeah, I use it on purpose.
You don't have any anxiety,right?
Jeff (00:43):
No, no, no.
I dealt with that a long timeago.
Adam (00:47):
I've dealt with that.
I put that in its place.
Jeff (00:50):
right.
Uh, no role in my You know, Iwonder, there's a fun phrase
that I'm often use, uh, thatI've learned in the recovery
world.
But I first heard it from a longtimer from, he was AA, he said,
Hey Jeff, if you're, if it's notmessy, you're not doing it
right.
(01:10):
And you know, when I think aboutdoing any kind of personal
development work that if you'renot scared, you're probably not
doing it right.
And so I'm not sure the goal isto be fearless.
There, there's a certain senseto where if we're.
If we're engaging in new terrainin our hearts, there, there
ought to be fear because there'sopposition there.
(01:31):
Um, there's, there's unknowns,uh, in that land.
to actually venture towards it,be really, really scary.
Adam (01:39):
Yep.
Yep.
And, and, and, and, you know,not to get too far off topic
cause fear and anxiety arekissing cousins.
Right.
But, uh, but our fear gives us agift.
I think it might've been shipDodd who said, if I.
if I'm going to, I'm going to goto war, uh, I want to go to war
with people who are afraid.
Um,
Jeff (02:00):
You don't want idiots who are just like no fear whatsoever
and
Adam (02:04):
Yeah, I mean, that's right.
the fear is going to cause youto be careful.
It's going to cause you out foryourself and your, and those
around you and protect thosearound you.
So, yeah, I think if you're notdoing it scared, you're not
doing And, um, You know, whatwe're talking about in these
episodes is, um, you know, arelative to fear, which is
(02:26):
anxiety.
And we're talking about how eachEnneagram type experiences
anxiety.
And just to briefly define it,as we did in the last episode,
anxiety can be a little.
elusive and difficult to pindown and define what exactly our
best stab at this would beanxiety is a common human
emotional experience that canmanifest, you know, mentally, it
(02:49):
can manifest in physiologicalresponses, but it's a common
human experience.
Sometimes there is situationalanxiety.
Which everyone faces.
This is work, bills, parenting,conflict, life, relationships.
And then there's also a chronicanxiety.
Think of this as more likeanxiety disorders that can, um,
(03:11):
that can really kind of hinderour ability to cope or function
with everyday life.
But I want to come back to thebasic.
understanding of this is acommon human emotional
experience that everyone,including every Enneagram type,
uh, experiences.
And so what we're going to do inthis episode is talk about how
each type experiences anxiety.
(03:32):
How does it show up?
What are the trail heads, youknow, of anxiety for each type?
And I think, you know, Jeff,we're going to do this in
triads.
So, um, do you want to kick usoff with the gut triad and talk
about eights, nines, and ones,and maybe what are some of the
common anxiety activators andwhat are the trail heads or how
(03:52):
does anxiety show up for thosetypes?
Jeff (03:55):
well, one of the phrases that we use, we use the term
core motivations a lot here atUnigram Coach.
And the number one is the corefear.
But as we talked a little bit inthe last episode, you could just
change out fear with anxiety.
There's a core angst in the soulof each of all the different
NIME types that really is thekey activator that that's what
(04:18):
sort of triggers it turns on theanxiety and all the other
relational style characteristicsof each Enneagram type.
So let's just take a look attype one for a second.
So the the The core fear isbeing wrong, bad or corruptible.
And so, uh, they're going to beactivated when there's this,
(04:39):
there's imperfections.
Um, there's criticism, there'sunmet high standards.
If people aren't takingresponsibility, uh, people
aren't following the rules,whether that be the, for
themselves or that, whether thatbe for others, right?
Because each of the subtypeskind of, they're, they're
different.
That inner critic is fighting sowhat this can look like at times
(05:01):
is that for the one is thatthey're feeling stressed, that
something's out of order orincorrect.
So there's a, unwarranted focus.
an obsessiveness about beingright.
Um, when you hear about, uh, it,it's the resentment that the
(05:22):
ones are continuously caringwhen people aren't living up to
expectations or doing the thingsthat they want to do now, that's
going to be hard for the one torecognize, or maybe they'll
recognize the resentment, butthey won't recognize the real
anger that's behind all of that.
And they certainly wouldn't wantto say that they're actually Um,
(05:43):
you know, whenever, you know,the one as a child, their
anxiety shows up by takingresponsibility in areas where
they felt like their parentsweren't.
And so responsibility can be atrailhead a type one,
specifically whenever they'reexperiencing anxiety.
what comes to mind for you whenyou think of type ones and how
(06:04):
anxiety shows up for them?
Adam (06:07):
I think initially because we're in an election season.
Uh, for type ones can, can fallinto a bit black and white
thinking right or wrong, good orbad.
And so an opposing viewpoint.
Can, can be a real activator,you know, can, can be something
that really causes anxiety toget triggered.
There can, you know, and for atype one, you know, you're
(06:30):
operating in anxiety.
If you have, um, a small windowof tolerance for a different
viewpoint.
You know, um, and if, if you'refalling into the black and white
thinking, um, you know, and, andthen again, just kind of like
you mentioned, the, the, theclassic example is, uh, just
mistakes, not being able toembrace the gift of their own
(06:52):
imperfections.
Um, seeing the imperfections inthemselves and the inner critic
really exaggerating the anxietyof, you need to fix this, you
need to reform this, You need toget better, you know, better
than this.
Um, those moralistic innercritics.
Uh, really amp up and exaggeratethe anxiety.
Um, and
Jeff (07:11):
Adam, it that makes me realize that, you know, perhaps
with the type ones, and be sureto put in the comments and let,
let's support one another inthis there's a great phrase
that, uh, a mentor from adistance that both Adam and I
have Steve Cuss, who's written alot about anxiety.
Um, he's got, uh, theexpectation gap I think now and
(07:32):
also managing leadershipanxiety, which is, um.
Leadership is a broad term forhim.
That's for anybody inrelationship.
Really?
It's not just in organizationshe says you have to name it to
tame it And what we're trying todo is to help you to name things
and so if you're a type one Orany type as we're going through
(07:54):
this, why don't you try to namewhere your anxiety is coming
from and how it shows up?
Cause it's not just showing upfront and center.
You may call it something else.
And so you may be learningsomething, but let's just help
one another out to learn how toname what's together,
particularly for do.
(08:15):
But you know, it makes me thinkof when, For the type six, it's
the racing thoughts.
It's the flywheel of thoughtsthat go through a mind that is
an easy indicator of anxiety.
But what you just described forthe type one, it's the inner
critic.
If your inner critic is out ofcontrol, that's anxiety.
Adam (08:32):
yep.
Anxiety.
Jeff (08:33):
That is your way of trying to handle fear in your
Adam (08:36):
Yeah.
Jeff (08:37):
to make things right.
And it's going to get, it's,it's hyper focused.
It's hypercritical.
Um, it's just, disproportionate.
To what is Well, why don't wemove on?
So the goal here in thisparticular episode is that we're
going to be naming it now in thenext episode We're going to be
(08:58):
talking about well what to dowhenever you start to find your
own heart at at unrest itdisorganized the Oh, it spun out
as a term that Beth and I use,uh, whenever we feel a little
disorganized or, uh, feel likewe're not on our best game.
But let's talk about the Type8s.
(09:19):
Now, Type 1s and Type 8s seem tooften always have their
composure and, um, are, uh,Maybe a little less influenced
by other people.
And we think, oh man, they,they're never anxious.
They always know what to do.
Um, and they're, they alwaysthink that they're doing
something right.
They always think they're doingit the right way.
Right.
But you know, for the, A, their,their core anxiety, say, is
(09:44):
being controlled or harmed,being powerless.
And the disproportionateresponse to that is always be in
power and don't be vulnerable.
Be impenetrable by other peopleand relationships.
(10:05):
Now whether that be cultural,where they try fiercely to live
the independent life.
But to the degree that you aretrying to be independent
impenetrable, unharmable,there's anxiety that's fueling
all that.
And you know it's anxiety toobecause you know what happens
for a lot of twos and a lot ofeights is that eventually their
(10:28):
bodies catch up with them andthey start to experience
sickness because they can'tmanage life.
You're not intended.
You're human being withlimitations.
You're a human being withboundaries and you can't carry
it all and so there'll be allkinds of other little sideways
(10:49):
behaviors and thoughts andBehaviors that'll try to help
you to cope with the pressurethat you have put on yourself to
not be harmed I was about to sayAndrew.
I don't know why I was going toI don't even know an Andrew.
I was thinking maybe there's anAndrew who's an eight.
I don't know.
Adam, what comes to mind for youwhen you think of the type
Adam (11:10):
well, first of all, anytime someone calls me by the
wrong name, I use what is aclassic old man joke.
And if, if you're a listener andyou don't know this joke, You're
welcome.
And it's, Uh, can call mewhatever you want.
Just don't call me late fordinner.
I don't know.
I mean, are you familiar withthis joke?
Jeff (11:31):
Uh, Adam, there, there are times where you give us an
insight into Arkansans, I'veheard you pronounce it.
And I think that was one of thembecause, uh, I've not ever heard
that
Adam (11:44):
You didn't have that one in Texas growing up in Mesquite,
Jeff (11:46):
me late for dinner.
Adam (11:48):
Yeah.
You can call me whatever youwant.
Just Don't call me late fordinner.
How about
Jeff (11:51):
one from Liam Neeson, uh, in Airplane, Don't Call Me
Shirley?
Adam (11:55):
Wait, wait, not Liam Neeson.
Liam Neeson is the, uh, is thelike taken guy.
Who's like, uh, All I can thinkabout now is Liam Neeson and
airplane, and that would be anamazing
Jeff (12:12):
Dude.
Well, I mean,
Adam (12:13):
You're thinking of
Jeff (12:14):
not to, say that I've ever watched the show, but I know
that he makes an appearance inthe movie Ted where he's talking
about, uh, our tricks for kids.
Adam (12:23):
Yeah, yeah, You're thinking of Leslie Nielsen.
His,
Jeff (12:30):
same initials.
It was close.
Adam (12:32):
Don't call me Shirley.
Jeff (12:34):
Don't
Adam (12:34):
Sure.
Surely you can't be serious.
And he says, I am serious.
And Don't call me.
Jeff (12:44):
Okay.
Adam (12:46):
All right.
Oh, Hey, we've annoyed
Jeff (12:50):
that just, that's, that's what just happened.
That's how we deal with ouranxiety.
Adam was concerned aboutaddressing the anxiety of an
eight for fear of offending themand or Jeff was and so then I
just went on this long joke ofgoing through actors with the
letters L and N and uh,different phrases they've used
(13:11):
in the various movies they'vebeen part of.
So there you go.
Adam (13:14):
And now all the eights, the eights are offended were
about to get, deeper into theexample of how anxiety shows up
and then we went on our, we wenton our tangent and so there's,
they're still waiting, they're,they're waiting on us to, to,
Jeff (13:27):
We're exercising.
Maybe they're getting anxiousand angry with us.
Adam (13:31):
Yeah.
How does it make you feel as youguys are listening and waiting?
Um, what are you feeling rightnow that, uh, rage that you're
noticing is a cold anxiety.
But you know, I think here's aline and you know, every, every
line I have, I, you know, everycliche or line I have, I took
someone else, but, um, a goodway to think about anxiety if
(13:53):
you're as an eight, you may belistening to this and thinking,
no, no, no, no, I don't feelanxious.
I don't ever walk in a room andfeel anxious.
I I'm self assured.
I feel, um, confident on my owntwo feet.
I can walk in any room and I'mthe leader.
Um, I don't feel anxious, butit's helpful to say, no, this is
your anxiety.
Like we, like we did with thetype one, like the inner critic.
(14:15):
Um, that, that is, that is youranxiety, um, for the six, the
worst case scenario thinking,um, that is your anxiety, uh,
for an eight, your bravado oryour strength, your bigness, um,
Your rage.
Don't think of rage.
Like the incredible Hulk Rage isjust big energy and your, your
(14:38):
bravado often is your anxiety.
And here's the, here's the line.
Anxiety is me trying to getbigger than, than the fear
that's inside of an
Jeff (14:49):
you mentioned it in the last episode that oftentimes, if
you're getting big because ofsomeone else's anxiety, it's
because you're afraid ofanxiety.
Adam (14:58):
You're anxious.
Yeah.
And so the, the, the, the thingis, it's, it's, it's like a dog
shows it's showing its teeth,right?
Like you would look at the dogand you're going, man, he's
tough and big and strong.
And loud and aggressive.
And I don't want to mess withhim, but if you could, if you
could zoom inside the, the soulof the dog or the mind of the
(15:20):
dog, kind of the way we get tosee inside Riley's mind and
inside out, you would know thatthe dog is afraid.
The dog is anxious.
That's, that's why the dog is,is displaying bravado.
He's, he's using his strategy,uh, to protect himself.
And, and this is, this is oftenfor an eight, how it shows up.
(15:42):
And, you know, if you feel likesomeone, here's some situational
examples.
If you're in a situation whereyou feel like someone is going
to try to take advantage of youor manipulate you, um, someone's
going to try to use their powerand position to mistreat you or.
Someone that's in your circle,aides are very protective of
those in their circle andthey're very protective of the
(16:04):
vulnerable.
And if you feel like someoneelse is going to pose a threat,
you have, there's an anxietyabout that.
And that's a good thing.
That's where I'm saying is like,Jeff and I were trying to say
that not anxiety by default isnot bad.
It's trying to, trying to help.
Um, You know, so these are justsome examples of, of how it
might show up.
(16:25):
If, if you feel attacked, youknow, if you feel restricted or
controlled, um, if you feelthreatened in some way, you're
going to notice the, thestrength emerge and most likely
that is your anxiety.
Jeff (16:41):
That's awesome, Adam.
I really appreciate it.
I even think of, uh, yeah, we'vebeen recently been attending a
few different, um, large groupgatherings and, uh, and as I
talk about AIDS, they, they,oftentimes, and as I talk with
AIDS, they sometimes boast abouthow much they don't care.
(17:01):
And that was the equal butopposite error, but that is that
is defined by I'm going to be sofiercely independent.
my independency I mean, evenbeing in a room that feels a
little leaderless.
the eight waiting to find out ifsomeone's going to lead or not,
Adam (17:21):
That's anxiety.
Jeff (17:22):
a, there's angst in the room that you may or may not
need to Now the great thing isthat there are eights who will
step in the gap when And ittakes, it certainly takes wisdom
to understand how to have aright relationship with an
anxiety But sometimes it couldbe for the eight to pay the path
(17:44):
to call someone else out to
Adam (17:47):
Uh huh.
Jeff (17:48):
to help a leader.
Well, let's move on to typenine.
Uh, so type nine is their coreangst, their core anxiety, core
fear is the loss ofrelationship, the loss of
connection.
And so when the reason why theyhave so much trouble with.
Arguments with conflict isbecause of the anxiety that it
creates in them that this is thebeginning of the end.
(18:10):
That this is how they're goingto lose connection.
So how much stress they feel,um, whenever there's even
disagreements between otherfamily members that may not even
be related to them.
So they've lost a sense of Uh,carrying a sense of just nines,
read the room, they can feel theangst, the anxiety in the room.
(18:31):
And sometimes that can behelpful, but sometimes it's a
real burden for them becauseit's, was telling someone, it's
almost like the, uh, superpowersthat come with, uh, the
characters in the movies X inthe movie X Men that they need
to learn how to yield.
This gift that they um, wantingto move to solutions, losing
(18:54):
your sense of identity in orderto get to a solution to make
people happy.
That, that's anxiety that'smotivating What comes to mind
for you, Adam?
Adam (19:03):
Yeah.
I think about my, you know, I'm,I'm, I'm really close to type
nines.
You know, my wife is a typenine.
And so when I think aboutcontext and, you know,
contextual examples for her,it's like if, if she and I are
having a confrontation, she'sprobably most likely a one to
one nine with me.
And so if we're having aconfrontation or a disagreement,
(19:26):
I can see the anxiety and, and,and, and she, you know, she
doesn't pursue, it's more likeshut down.
That's how anxiety shows up forher.
And so if you're a nine and youfall into, um, sort of a
relational narcolepsy, you know,of just, I'm going to disappear,
which is also the thing they'remost afraid of is, you know,
being overlooked.
(19:47):
And, but it's like, I'm, I'mgoing to, to disappear.
I'm going to withdraw.
That is her anxiety.
That's it.
It, that's, that's how it'sshowing up.
And, um, now I also see heranxiety show up in an anger,
know, she's in that gut triad,right?
So there's a, there's a, there'sa common desire for justice.
(20:11):
And, you know, our eights andones friends are very attuned to
this as well.
But if she, if she perceivesthat there's a justice, you
know, being overlooked, youknow, uh, people not receiving
justice, someone's being, um,You know, the marginalized or
the, the defenseless are being,you know, harmed in some way.
Like there's a, there's an angstand an anger that shows up and
(20:34):
it, it is an anxiety of, I'vegot to do something about this.
Somebody has to do somethingabout this, you know?
And again, that's, that's,that's, that part of her is, Has
good intentions, you know, um,but that's what comes to me for
the nine, you know, chaos, um,any, you know, where, where
(20:54):
there seems to be chaos and alack of unity, uh, whether
that's just in the, in our homeor relation in certain
relationships, like all of thoseare, are, are contexts where the
anxiety is going to, but mostlywith me.
It mostly if, if, if she, if sheand I are having a disagreement
that doesn't get resolved,that's, that's where that's
going to be the main trigger foranxiety and it'll show up in her
(21:17):
sort of disappearing,
Jeff (21:20):
It is interesting to, even as we put these themes together
and now we're kind of blendinginto subtypes, is that how each
type experiences anxiety can bedirectly tied to their subtype
as well.
Mm hmm.
So, if you, if you've gone thatfar or maybe want to be
interested in something maybeit's not just with your anxiety,
it's not just with one person,but with a group of communal
(21:45):
anxiety, uh, to take a look atsome of the subtypes because
that could really answer some ofthe questions that people may
have where, where does theiranxiety Well, let's take a look
at the heart trend and I'll letyou, uh, lead off on each of
the, the two threes and fours.
Adam (22:00):
absolutely.
Yeah.
So let's talk about our type twofriends.
The core.
Angst as you said, Jeff, or thecore anxiety, core fear a type
two, is that fear of beingunloved Or unwanted?
Um, there's an anxiety thatcomes from not, not feeling
appreciated, not feeling wanted,not feeling needed.
(22:23):
Um, you know, that's the, the,the.
core desire of a two is just, isto be loved and wanted, um, for
who they are.
And so if that need, I mean,that's a, and that's a basic
need for every human being, buttwos have a particular, um,
desire for that and a particularvulnerability needing that.
And if that need is not beingmet, there is an anxiety that's
(22:46):
going to show up.
And you know, uh, it's almostlike a separation anxiety, um,
of, I don't, I I'm not sure Ibelong and matter with the
people I want to belong andmatter with.
And so there's the, there's agap between me and this person
and all the tension.
Uh, and, uh, and, and here's,here's one way it often shows
(23:09):
up.
Anxiety can show up in the formof shame of like, maybe I'm not
wanted.
Maybe I'm not.
Maybe I'm unwanted, you know,maybe I'm
Jeff (23:18):
even when I think of twos, I think of how much they insert
their presence into otherpeople's lives.
So a two, in order to addresstheir own fears around being
unwanted, will insert themselvesinto the lives of others, so
that others don't feel unwanted,hoping that ease their own
anxiety about how they
Adam (23:39):
And let me say this, you, you, you talk about inserting
yourself, like, like be a movinginto someone else's life.
Um, here's one way, you know,your anxiety shows up as a two
is if you're exhausted, if youare, um, feel really
underappreciated yet you'repouring out, if you're over
(24:02):
functioning, Uh, in people'slives, you're people pleasing,
these are these, it's like, it'slike the Jeff Foxworthy, like,
there's your sign.
Remember that from the nineties?
It's like,
Jeff (24:15):
Well, but that wasn't, that wasn't Jeff Foxworthy,
Adam (24:18):
Well, it wasn't.
Jeff (24:19):
No, it was the other guy.
I don't remember his name.
He was the shorter guy.
Um, not Larry, the cable guy.
Adam (24:28):
Ron.
Jeff (24:29):
No, that was the drinking guy.
Adam (24:32):
yeah.
Okay.
Well here,
Jeff (24:35):
Google it.
Hold on just a
Adam (24:36):
who, who,
Jeff (24:37):
cause you corrected my Liam Neeson reference earlier.
So,
Adam (24:43):
in, in the naked gun
Jeff (24:45):
Bill Ingvall.
Ha ha.
Gotcha.
Adam (24:48):
Ingvall.
You did get me.
Here's your sign.
Jeff (24:50):
Yeah.
Adam (24:52):
He's the one that did, here's your sign.
Jeff (24:54):
He did.
Yeah.
He tells stories about statingthe obvious.
Adam (24:59):
Okay.
Well, Bill Ingvall, but it's,it's like, here's your anxiety.
You know, it's like, if you wantto know how it's showing up, if
you're, if you're exhausted,over functioning, there it is.
Jeff (25:10):
Yep.
There it is.
It was funny.
I was, uh, we were doing amarriage retreat.
So Beth and I did our firstextended marriage retreat,
Enneagram, uh, really formarriages.
Uh, it was an incredibleexperience and we were so
impacted by, uh, the willingnessof these couples to follow our
(25:31):
lead and.
To trust us and we are sothrilled to see the impact of
what it meant for them to beable to have conversations with
new language but one guy Came upto me it was actually over
dinner and he said hey Jeff, youknow, you're a funny guy Then
you'll make these reallyprovocative questions and go
(25:54):
really deep Because do you useyour your humor to kind of
diffuse a room?
I was like, you can, you can getout of my kitchen.
Like you're,
Adam (26:06):
for sure.
Yeah,
Jeff (26:08):
using other things to diffuse the anxiety is common
for all the
Adam (26:14):
that's right.
Jeff (26:16):
just the way that we cope with talk about type three.
Adam (26:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The core anxiety cause for athree or is that core angst or
core fear is a fear failure.
a fear of being unworthy, uh, ofsuccess.
a fear of others looking back atAre you looking at yourself?
Are you looking at otherslooking back at With, with eyes
(26:42):
of disappointment anddisapproval.
Um, you're not enough, you know,you're a
Jeff (26:48):
I felt the, I feel anxiety when you just said that when
someone's looking back at youwith the eyes of disappointment,
like yeesh,
Adam (26:54):
yeah, Nobody wants
Jeff (26:56):
that
Adam (26:57):
nobody wants that.
Nobody wants that.
And for the three, again,there's a particular fear of
that.
And, and I have a lot ofcompassion for my three friends
who carry that.
And you know, that, that anxietyoccurs when they feel that
they're just when they're notbeing productive, they're not,
they're not being productive.
They're not being successful.
They're not, They're not, youknow, being recognized for their
(27:19):
achievements.
That's the core anxiety causefor them.
And then, you know, there's lotsof contextual examples of how
this shows up.
You know, it's, it's, it canshow up in a, uh,
overperforming.
If you're a three and you, uh,You are exhausted from pouring
out and performing and doing,um, you know, that.
(27:41):
that's, that's a good sign thatthat's your anxiety, you know,
um, when you feel like you haveto, to, uh, constantly be
getting better, you know,there's a fine line between self
development and anxious selfdevelopment, like what I would
call compulsive.
Self development, you know,there's a compulsivity to the,
(28:03):
to, I've got to get better.
I've got to, I've got tooutcompete this cannot lose, you
know, there's a differencebetween, um, doing your best and
having to be the best.
I mean, if you're doing yourbest as a three, and this is
what we do, we tell, we tellthis to our kids all the time.
If they've got a test or asoftball game or something, it's
(28:23):
like, Hey, do your best.
That's all we can ask.
And if you strike out, youstrike out.
You know, I mean, it's okay thatyou have feelings about striking
out.
It's okay that that makes youangry.
It's okay that that's okay.
But just if you're doing yourbest, then you're doing your
best.
but if you have to be the uh,that's a pressure that the soul
can't sustain.
(28:44):
And I'm telling you, it, it's,it's a recipe for anxiety.
It is your anxiety.
What, what about you, Jeff?
What, what, what comes to mindfrom the three?
Jeff (28:51):
Well, I, I'm starting to realize that I, I, as I think
about each of the types, thisidea of projection, uh, is
coming to mind for me a lot inthese themes because some, I
just think so much like for athree, threes when working in
teams and groups, like they getreally frustrated with
incompetent leaders.
(29:13):
Or teams that aren't functioningefficiently or family.
That's not going along with theplans that they've made for the
family, whether it like bevacation or just getting through
the, the weekend, um, sports,let's say, and the schedule that
needs to take place.
So whenever, Other people aren'tcoming through the way that they
(29:33):
want them to come through.
They're projecting this sense ofit of anxiety of we, we, this is
the schedule.
This is the efficient way.
This is the productive way andwe need to be efficient and
productive.
Uh, despite who we may, what wemay be feeling or experiencing
in our life, you have to keepproducing.
And that's where the anxiety iscoming from from the type three.
(29:55):
Now they're the ones that can bethe most, Disengaged from their
heart.
And so a three may not name itas anxiety.
They may name it as frustrationum, they may or may not even be
willing to name that they'refeeling something and The family
may all be looking at them likewe can tell you're upset about
(30:16):
But you're not telling us butit's all over your mind Face and
we can read it from your body,your nonverbal, but the idea I
think of projection is a way ofunder seeing a trail head of
what am I holding other peoplethat maybe I'm, that I'm anxious
about in my own
Adam (30:35):
Yeah.
Can I put it in a word?
Here's, here's a word.
If that my three friends oftentry to disguise their anxiety as
this word and it's the wordambition.
Um, nothing wrong with ambition.
I mean, that's, those arevirtues, but oftentimes we, we,
(30:57):
we try to sort of baptize ouranxiety as this is, this is just
ambition.
I'm just trying to, I'm justtrying to do my best, you know,
I'm just, and it's, and what'sthat saying of every person that
died on Mount Everest was once ahighly ambitious person.
Um, you know, Ambition is avirtue.
So, you know, my favorite thingto say these days, especially
(31:20):
when people like to take soundbites and take things out of
context.
uh, but my favorite thing to sayis don't hear what I'm not
saying.
Um, I'm not saying ambition isbad.
I'm saying it's, it's like inthe same way that the eight
might say, no, this is just mystrength.
I'm just, this is, this iscalled confidence.
Well, yeah, but there's a goldand shadow side to that.
(31:41):
The gold is, is your ambitioncan, can, can take you to great
places make everybody around youbetter.
But the shadow side of yourambition is that it's a comp,
it's actually a compulsivitythat doesn't know how to stop.
And that's anxiety.
What you call ambition isactually anxiety.
Does that make sense?
Jeff (32:01):
Yep.
It does.
Adam (32:02):
Well, let's talk about force.
Um, let's talk about force.
Uh, Round out the heart triadhere.
So the, the, the core anxietycause the core angst or core
fear four friends is really afear of not having a, an
identity or personalsignificance.
It's an, it's an anxiety causedby feelings of inadequacy,
(32:26):
especially being misunderstood.
really the, the shame of beingmisunderstood causes a, a, a
strong angst for the four.
Um, you know, if, if, if, ifthey're, if they're feeling as
though they're not seen asspecial, honored, as special.
If, if, you know, if, if, ifyou're not valuing their
(32:47):
uniqueness, um, there's, there'sjust an, there's a, there's an
angst that they carry.
Another way that anxiety showsup is by internalizing other
people's pain.
You know, uh, fours have anincredible gift for empathy and
for sitting in a place of Uh,but there can be some
transference that happens there.
(33:08):
And so stories about peoplehurting or in despair or
situations that appear hopelesstoo much four.
And these, these are things thatcan activate that anxiety.
Uh, but what, what, what goes onin you when you think about the
four?
As they relate to anxiety?
Jeff (33:27):
a few experiences that I've had, uh, with type fours,
uh, one would be, I, I hear theache in their heart whenever
they share stories of theirfantasy Fours have a tendency to
fantasize conversations andrelationships and they will
predict or forecast, uh, howconversations are going to go or
(33:50):
what people will say about themfeel about them.
And they experience it as ifit's If you're, if you're
fantasizing about conversations,that's, that's anxiety think
too, it's, it's kind of aninteresting phenomena if you've
been around fours a lot, andparticularly if you're close to
them where they kind of lettheir guard down.
(34:12):
But sometimes I experience thearrogance in order to compensate
for what they perceive asinadequacy, or maybe that
they're too unique or flawed,that they actually come across
as arrogant and certain.
(34:32):
Like no one can understand depthof this topic, this artist,
this, uh, procedure the way thatI can.
And it, it's almost as a way ofdealing, we're not having to
deal with the angst that'sinside their heart, that they're
(34:53):
going to force you to understandtheir value.
It's very nuanced, but I, it,it, it always surprises it'd be
like with a six to be quitehonest with you.
Cause I, a lot of peopleexperience me as strong and
decisive.
And, but, uh, that is purely acoping mechanism because there's
(35:16):
a lot of fear on the other sideof it.
It just shows up in a particularway in my various And so it, I
quite, Jeff describes himself asbeing and anxious, but yet he
comes across strong and arrogantdecisive, like he doesn't want
your feedback and he's justmaking a decision.
(35:37):
sometimes that kind of strengthis actually anxiety
Adam (35:41):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (35:41):
And I've just experienced that sometimes with fours.
Adam (35:45):
Mm-Hmm.
.Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the four you get.
Sometimes the, um, I think whereI see anxiety show up sometimes
is just in a, just in a, aheightened sensitivity.
If it just, there's, there'sjust a, um.
Almost like an intolerance for,uh, for, for anything really.
(36:09):
and so, you know, when you getto That place of every there's,
there's a constant defensivenessand, um, and that's, that's,
that's anxiety, you know?
Um, Jeff, why don't you finishus out with the head triad and
we get to dive deeper into,deeper into, deeper into our own
type here.
Jeff (36:26):
it was fun.
We were recently at the, um, momat mom con and a wonderful
experience.
And so fun to.
with all of our listeners of thepodcast and people who follow us
on Instagram.
So, uh, super, super fun.
But, you know, here we were inthe context of, Thousands of
(36:48):
women, um, and, uh, we would runinto fives and they were always
like, I know I'm, there'sprobably not many of us here.
And there, there actuallyweren't that many fives there.
And, um, they definitely werethe quieter ones.
And, uh, but you know, they werethere and, uh, they were, there
were probably more of them thanwhat we, uh, would have
expected, at least what theywould have expected.
(37:09):
But, the core anxiety of thefive is being overwhelmed or
depleted.
Anxiety arises from a lack oftime, space, or energy in order
to And, you know, if, for thefive, the way this shows up is
if they find themselvesincreasingly trying to get away.
(37:34):
Where maybe they're, they, maybethey're like these moms at mom
con where they've got young kidsthat there's, there's really not
an opportunity to get away, um,that they, they have to be
present, but they're alwaysthinking about trying to get
away.
That's that sense of anxiety.
(37:54):
You know, I think too, uh,Whenever five start to,
disproportionately focus onstudying the nuances of a
particular topic that areunnecessary to meet the needs of
the in order to know all thedetails about how it That can be
(38:15):
a form of anxiety.
Now, it can also be sort of likea hobbyist and just simply done
out of playful curiosity andintrigue, like the engineer who
wants to understand how, youknow, the, the toy works.
And so they disassemble thingsin order to put it back together
to see how it works.
So it can function for the fivein both ways, but the fives will
(38:35):
know that whenever, or at leastthey know the experience of
when.
They get obsessively focused ona topic and give more and more
The other thing is the, theavoidance of feeling incompetent
or uninformed, that it, itactually creates anxiety for
(38:57):
them.
That, that is anxiety for them,is trying to avoid Anything else
you'd add?
Adam (39:05):
Yeah, I think the only thing I would add?
is, um, because a lot of fiveswill hear you, we'll hear you
say, um, increasingly trying towithdraw and they will, they
will just point out that that's,inerrant to their type.
I mean, they, they need, theyneed more time and space to
(39:25):
recharge.
Um, to, you know, and, and fiveslove solitude and, you know,
they're okay with, you know,more time to themselves.
The only thing I would say isthere's a fundamental difference
between solitude and isolation.
And so, um, if you areisolating, And that is where you
are putting up, you know,proverbial walls, thick, tall
(39:50):
walls to keep other people out.
And you are retreating to your,to your intellectual world.
And that's the real estate whereyou're sort of camping out.
Um, and, and you're isolating,that is your anxiety.
Solitude is different.
Solitude is a basic human need.
Again, everybody needs it.
Even our type seven friends,either the or the most
(40:12):
extroverted pers person on theplanet, needs time alone to
themselves recharge, um, toreconnect, uh, solitude's a, a
need.
Uh, but, but if you'reisolating, uh, no one's meant
for that.
And, and that, that is youranxiety, the isolation, the,
the, the, the withdrawing.
Jeff (40:31):
You know, one thing that did come to mind as I was fives
do isolate themselves anddistance themselves relationally
is, uh, they deny their need ortheir experience of
Adam (40:47):
Mm
Jeff (40:49):
And a lot of fives would say like, they don't, don't have
feelings or they don't know howto explain what they're feeling.
They don't have words to That'sactually anxiety showing
Emotions are dangerous.
Uh, emotions can beoverwhelming.
You know, if one of the corelongings is for the, the five
(41:11):
that their needs are okay, andthat at some point as a young
child, they decided that theirneeds were a problem and that
they wanted to take care ofthemselves apart from parents
then, you know, emotions wouldsay like, no, I'm a person who
has needs, who needs attunementfrom parents.
So even isolation, like it's a,it is a movement of anxiety.
(41:38):
please come after Please comeand find me All right, let's
look at type six.
Now we're in the hood.
this always happens whenever weget to to the type you know,
we're just talking about theneighborhood we live in.
But, um, so the core angst ofthe six is being without support
(42:00):
or guidance.
it emerged, emerges frominsecurity and uncertainty.
so situations that we're facinglike now in I don't, I don't
know the rules to play by inorder to feel safe.
There are no rules,
Adam (42:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (42:17):
There's nothing that I can sense that I can find a sense of
control or power.
powerless.
And also there's a theme oflearned helplessness that's a
helplessness that's actually.
taught and caught by, uh, it'sreally all the types, feeling
powerless helpless and trying tofind mechanisms with, to adopt
(42:46):
safe again.
You know, Adam, I, the craziestthing I, we, when we're at this
mom con, I was thinking aboutour next event that we're going
to, which is the extraordinarywomen conference in Charlotte at
the end of October.
Adam (43:00):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (43:01):
well, as many of you know, when I think it was Hurricane,
is it Helen?
Helena?
Helen?
I but, um, it's the hurricanethat recently rocked North
Carolina, uh, and, easternTennessee.
Well, one of the highways to getto Charlotte is, uh, Has been
knocked out like it literally,some erosion that happened in
(43:24):
the highway collapsed.
Seriously, I, I probably spenttwo hours thinking about this.
I even went to Google maps tolook at it and to see which
different ways we're going tohave to go in order to drive to
get there.
But it was keeping me up tryingto figure it out.
And I was half asleep again,trying to figure out how in the
world we're going to get.
(43:44):
The Charlotte and how long is itgoing to take The answer was
simply clear.
Like there were things that Icould do.
There were Beth and I can breakup the trip and, uh, have a fun
little weekend together on ourway there.
And on our way back fears about,uh, did I make a mistake and not
booking a flight?
Uh, what's it, are we going tohave to go through these smaller
(44:06):
towns?
Are they're going to have someroad problems as well?
How are we going to make thisthing?
And that's just the idea.
Like, I don't, no one's going totell me what.
I'm going to have to figure thisout, but I was carrying it in a
very anxious way.
It wasn't about planning.
It was about something way morethan feeling worried about
future events, um, experiencingthe experiences of the body, my
(44:29):
anxiety shows up in my stomach,it my neck, but it's primarily
through the in my head.
Um, man, I, I, Regret's anotherbig one for me.
I, I know that regret is usuallyanxiety showing up that don't
make this kind of decisionagain.
Adam (44:47):
Hmm.
Jeff (44:48):
you know, I was the one that was responsible for
preparing all the items that weneeded to take for our booth Um
for this big event and we wereflying there So I had to make
sure that things were shipped tothe right place I are packed the
right things I didn't I made amistake and I regretted it But I
I thought that we could take abag Weighing 70 pounds.
(45:09):
It was actually 50, but then onthe way back, uh, I probably
spent at least two or threehours thinking through how to
make sure our bags were allwithin the 50 pound range so
that we could get it backwithout having
Adam (45:23):
You're like, I'm not going to make that mistake again.
Jeff (45:25):
That's right.
So regret's a big one.
How do you, how does youranxiety show up, Adam?
Adam (45:31):
Yeah, Well, also being a six and I think I'll, I'll say
this through, through the lensof subtypes, you know, I, I, I
mean you use all three subtypes,but I certainly identify more
with the self preservation sixthese days.
And so it usually shows up inobsessive thoughts about, um,
not having enough.
(45:51):
Fill in the blank, just nothaving enough, you know, not,
not being enough, not havingenough, not having what it
takes.
And some of that is,
Jeff (46:01):
food when we have I don't know.
Adam (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean that, and that's, that'sfunny.
that you mentioned that becauseI, um, you know, I love to, to
smoke meat and barbecue and I'malways super, Uh nervous about
checking the internaltemperature of food, you know,
before I serve it to my
Jeff (46:21):
that right?
Adam (46:22):
yeah, cause I don't want to be the ones to poison my
family and friends and beresponsible for their deaths,
you know?
Um,
Jeff (46:29):
Dude, that got serious really fast.
Adam (46:32):
that's where, see what I mean?
And, and Hey, there's youranxiety.
it gets to worst case scenarioreal fast, when you go from zero
to 60, you know, in threeseconds, um, two seconds or
whatever, that's, that's youranxiety.
And, um, you know, worst casescenario thinking, uh,
(46:53):
constantly seeking reassurance,the inability to trust yourself
and your own judgment, man,those are, those are all
manifestations of anxiety forthe six.
And I'm, I'm, all of those.
Yeah.
Jeff (47:07):
let's just talk about type seven, which is another type
that we might consider.
Sevens don't have anxiety.
They're all about having fun.
And, uh, always next to the newadventure.
But they carry a core angstabout them, a core fear of being
trapped in pain and deprived offreedom, the loss of decisions.
(47:27):
And so, whenever they start toexperience limitations or they
start to experience routine or,uh, heaven forbid, boredom,
there will be an angst aboutthem.
Now that anxiety is not going tolook the same as the type six or
the type four.
It's going to look unique to thetype seven.
(47:50):
But there's a sense ofrestlessness, of new experience,
new adventure, the newness ofthe next thing.
Uh, that's anxiety andperceiving that they are limited
or restricted that they may notbe.
That may just be normal humanboundaries and expectations and
responsibility, but those can beexperienced in an anxious heart
(48:13):
as a way of feeling trapped ordeprived of something.
And so they'll be anxiouslytrying to free themselves Um.
There's stories of people inpain and despair that forces
them to feel, uh, negativeemotions.
Can be very, um, uh, what, uh,activating for the type 7 to
(48:35):
feel anxiety.
They may kind of stay away fromcertain things that would help
make them feel or cause them tocertain emotions of sadness and
hurt.
They may want to avoid thosethings because they don't want
to, um, experience the negativein their perception.
And so there's this ongoingvigilance and angst of avoiding
(48:57):
anything that's going to benegative or pessimistic.
In your relationships with typesevens and coaching type sevens,
how do you see their anxiety
Adam (49:07):
Yeah, um, inability to stop, to be still, um, uh, uh,
you know, just constantly,almost compulsively asking the
question, what's next?
You know, um, and, and when, Ihave a, I have a friend who has
a, one of his sons, he's prettysure is a seven.
(49:29):
We're all pretty sure he's aseven and they're, they can be
in the middle of enjoying afamily movie night with popcorn
and snacks and they finally geteverything.
They've been looking forward toit all week and they get
everything spread out and hisson will, before they even take
the first bite, his son willsay, what are we doing tomorrow?
What are we going to do tomorrowmorning?
(49:50):
Dad, what are we doing?
What are we doing?
What are we doing after themovie?
And he'll say in a very nonshaming way, he'll say, Hey,
right now we're, focused onwhat's what's now, not what's
And, um, and, and we'll, we'll,we'll talk about what's next
soon, but right now we'refocused on what's next, what's
now, not what's next.
And I think for sevens, theinability to focus on what's
(50:11):
now, particularly being like,what's now inside of you.
What, where are you, where areyou emotionally?
Um, so if you're constant, ifyou're doing constant activity,
um, know, constant stimulation,overindulgence, you may call it
fun.
Uh, but if you are, you know,there's a, there's a concept
called pleasure stacking, uh,where it's like just one fun
(50:37):
thing after another, you know,just.
And, and nothing, I mean, a giftfrom
Jeff (50:42):
you know this to be true if you have ever planned a
Disney trip,
Adam (50:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jeff (50:47):
where you overplan it and you end up just being exhausted
and upset that you did this toyourself.
Adam (50:53):
Yeah.
Well, you know, what's funny,the, uh, Jewish rabbis talk
about pleasure stacking as, aslike a, a command on the
Sabbath.
They say like the Sabbath is asnow day.
Remember when you were a kid andyou get a snow day and it's
like, this is a day, God says,do what you want to do.
Rest, I will keep the worldspinning while you play.
(51:14):
Uh, it's, it's an exercise intrusting God to let go of
everything and just play.
And so the Jewish rabbis wouldtalk about pleasure stacking,
eat, drink, be merry, have fun,like do the things that you want
to do and do it with God, butlike get out there and so
pleasure stacking is a great wayto enjoy your life.
But if it is your life, there'syour anxiety.
(51:37):
Uh, if it is your life.
anxiety and the inability to, tojust be present and be still and
not be distracted.
Um, and sevens feel it.
If you put them in a place whereyou take away their freedom or
they feel boxed in and they're,they have to sit there.
Um, and, and, you know, when I'mworking with a seven as a
(51:58):
client, I just, I'm so, I try tobe really gentle and
compassionate and just help themname that, that like the
fidgeting energy, howuncomfortable you are in the
wondering mind is becauseyou're, you're dying to get out
of this moment.
want to get out of here andthat's called anxiety and that's
okay.
Um, but that's Yeah, how itshows up.
I think
Jeff (52:19):
I'll end with this fun little story.
Um, the same mentor thatintroduced me to the Enneagram
here, we would go on walkstogether during seminary.
And, uh, there was one day wewere walking around campus and
we, uh, saw this guy running andwe were just admiring that this
guy was out there running onthis.
(52:39):
You know, side road to thehighway and we were admiring and
wishing we were runners and whatthat would mean for our health
and our weight and all thosedifferent things.
but a couple minutes later, acop goes down the same road with
their lights on
Adam (52:54):
that's why it was running.
Jeff (52:56):
and, uh, uh, my friend, uh, he's, he's a therapist as
well.
And he goes, you know, Jeff, We,uh, you know, we see people
running.
We always think, where are theygoing?
What are they striving But werarely ask the question, what
are they running And when Ithink about type sevens, like,
yeah, it's true that we mayadmire them for their fun and
(53:19):
want to participate and join inand think, ah, I wish my life
was something like that.
But, uh, oftentimes there, thatenergy can be coming from
anxiety where they're actuallyrunning from something that.
God's inviting him to understandtheir own core needs that their
hearts can rest
Adam (53:38):
Mm.
Hmm.
Jeff (53:40):
well friends, I hope you enjoyed today.
I hope this, as we began thisidea of naming it to tainment,
that hopefully you're findingsome insights in how Each of the
types how anxiety shows up in anunexpected ways Now once we talk
through these it may be veryclear to you like, oh, okay I
didn't realize that was anxiety.
(54:01):
And so hopefully that's helpful.
But if hey if put it in thecomments, uh, and be sure to
Yeah, be sure to email us butlet's make this a community
thing where How does anxietyshow up for your type in your
own experience?
And maybe that's going to behelpful to other types or people
who care dearly or inrelationship with a person of
(54:22):
your type.
Uh, so be sure to put in thecomments how anxiety is showing
up for you, uh, in your ownpersonal life.
In this next episode, we'regoing to pay the path for you in
order to tame it.
What does it look like that whenyou are experiencing anxiety,
what are you supposed to do withit?
If we are supposed to have arelationship with this, and this
is something that God has givenus, well, the, He gave it to us
(54:45):
for a reason, and it actuallydraws us closer to Him.
Now, we're not going tospiritually bypass and just
quote verses at you, but we'regoing to provide some helpful
things that take into accountall of your sense of humanity,
and the needs that you have as ahuman being, so that your heart
can come to rest.
To be seen, to be heard, to havea sense of support and
(55:05):
encouragement so that your heartcan come to rest and your
anxiety doesn't have to playsuch a significant role and
carry such a heavy burden.
So thanks for hanging out withus.
If you missed the previousepisode, where we're defining
anxiety, be sure to take alisten to that.
We've got one more.
We're going to talk through, uh,how each type, what practices
would be helpful for you and howto tame your anxiety.
(55:28):
Uh, be sure to leave, ask usyour questions in the comments,
or you can email us at info atyour Enneagram coach.
com.
Hope you'll join us next timefor our next episode, Adam.
It's always great to be withyou.
Adam (55:39):
Same.
We'll see in the next episode.
Jeff (55:41):
Thanks everybody.
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