November 4, 2024 • 54 mins
In this episode, we dive into type-specific practices to help calm anxiety. Anxiety affects all of us differently based on our Enneagram type, and there are unique practices you can use to manage your stress and find balance.
Here’s a glimpse of what we cover:
- Type 1: Self-Compassion - Embrace imperfection; engage in creative hobbies.
- Type 2: Boundaries - Set healthy limits; prioritize self-care and “me-time.”
- Type 3: Authenticity - Practice being true to yourself; take breaks to rest.
- Type 4: Gratitude - Focus on what’s fulfilling; keep a gratitude journal.
- Type 5: Grounding - Use breathwork and meditation; maintain meaningful connections.
- Type 6: Self-Trust - Build confidence through small successes; challenge negative thoughts.
- Type 7: Mindfulness - Tolerate discomfort; practice calming activities like yoga.
- Type 8: Vulnerability - Trust others; practice relaxation techniques.
- Type 9: Assert Needs - Address avoidance; role-play difficult conversations.
Thank you to our guest:
Adam Breckenridge - https://myenneagramcoach.com/coach/adam-breckenridge/
We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com.
FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources
Find an Enneagram Coach - https://myenneagramcoach.com/
Become an Enneagram Coach Course - https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/bec
#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff (00:00):
Hey friends.
It looks like we've got yourattention because we are talking
about anxiety and how anxietyshows up for Enneagram type.
If you haven't taken a look yet,be sure to check out the two
previous episodes where we talkabout what is anxiety and how it
shows up for each Enneagramtype.
Now, in this particular episode,we're going to be discussing
(00:20):
what, what do you do?
Okay.
You, uh, How does it showing up?
And then what are you going todo about it?
Is it something that alwaysneeds to be eliminated?
Is it actually helpful?
And your body's telling yousomething, all of these things
we take into consideration.
So today we want this to be ahelpful episode for you to
discuss how to handle anxietyaccording to your type.
(00:41):
So, what exactly is it and howdoes it impact each Enneagram
type and what are some ways inwhich each type can respond to
anxiety to regulate themselvesand to navigate their in their
professional lives clarity andmore, uh, serenity.
Well, welcome to your Enneagramcoach the podcast.
(01:03):
I am Jeff McCord Co founder andCEO and here I'm with Adam
Breckinridge the director ofcoaching Adam.
We're glad you're here
Adam (01:13):
So good to be with you, Jeff, as always.
Jeff (01:16):
the funny thing is we were just talking before I You've got
two sixes talking about anxiety,uh, which stereotypically sixes
have, um, yeah, sixes have themost, are supposed to have the
most anxiety.
And I have to say, I woke up, mybody was on.
I mean, I, It just seems like mynervous system dealing with some
(01:40):
fear and uncertainty, wonderingif there's anyone outside of me,
it's going to give me a sense ofdirection and solve some of the
things that I'm worried about.
you know, anxiety really doesplay a significant role in each
type's life and we seem to bekind of
Adam (02:01):
That's right.
Yeah.
It sounds like you're prime andready to have a conversation
about anxiety this morning.
You know, I, I woke up in asimilar way.
I really did.
I woke up in a similar way thismorning.
Um, and I was reminded, wetalked about this, you know, a
couple, couple episodes ago thatthere was an article that, that,
that said that, um, you know,and I'm, and I'm thankful for
(02:22):
research like this because itreminds me that I'm, it makes me
feel less lonely when I realizedthat.
You and me and my six friendsare not, we don't have the
corner market on anxiety.
Anxiety really is a humanphenomenon.
And we talked about this articlethat said that, you know, 41
percent of American adults areexperiencing peak stress levels
for the year.
(02:42):
Um, right now.
And, you know, uh, the AmericanPsychiatric Association does,
does this annual mental healthpoll.
And this year, so far this year,43 percent of adults say they
feel more anxious than they didthe previous Um, the previous
year it was 37 percent in 2023.
In 32 percent of adults.
And so, Right now people areparticularly anxious.
(03:05):
Uh, you know, current events areplaying into that economy,
election, all kinds of stuffthat's going on there.
But, but Yeah.
I think Jeff, what, I guess whatI'm trying to say is I feel you
when you say you wake up anxiousthis morning, I feel You And you
know, I think probably ourlisteners and our audience feel
you
Jeff (03:26):
You know, and it's interesting for me that I, I'm
not sure that, well, to behonest with you, I, when
probably 2011 I was on asabbatical and we actually spent
some time with the marriage andfamily guy, uh, therapist, who
originally introduced ourfriends to the Enneagram back in
(03:48):
2001.
And for years I thought I was atype eight.
Uh, because the way in which Iwould handle my anxiety was I
would isolate and shut down.
I don't necessarily getfrenetic, uh, it's not something
that I show other people aroundme.
(04:13):
Um, And, you know, part of thattoo is, uh, I was a place kicker
in college and so learning howto just shut it all down and
focus on the job and not getoverwhelmed by all the things
that are happening around you.
Uh, maybe that was a skill thatI learned,
Adam (04:28):
Yeah.
Jeff (04:29):
I remember, uh, after doing some story work, so I had
done some exercises around thehighs and uh, all the highs were
associated with having a mentor.
And the guy said, I, I, I'm notsure you're an eight.
I like what you're telling me isthat you're a six.
I was pissed.
(04:49):
really, really angry because Ididn't want to answer.
I didn't want to name.
My anxiety.
Now, a gentleman that we bothfollow and appreciate, um, Steve
cuss, um, at the best domainname ever, Steve
Adam (05:04):
I know.
Jeff (05:05):
um, a.
com, but he, you know, he usesthe phrase, you've got to name
it to tame it.
that's the important thing aboutwhy we're going through each of
the nine types, because not eachnight may not think of
themselves as being anxious.
But the kind of frenetic energy,overcorrection, hypervigilance
(05:28):
that comes from each of thetypes.
Like if, if Jeff goes quiet,he's trying to shut it down.
Adam (05:37):
Yeah.
Jeff (05:38):
I've got a cold, um, infection, so I might know,
Adam, I mean, what, what are youthinking?
Why are we so afraid to admit toour anxiety?
Adam (05:50):
Well, I think the greatest fear of all is to be vulnerable
and nothing puts you in touchwith your vulnerability like
admitting your anxiety.
I mean, your anxiety.
Your anxiety is pointing toyour, your neediness, your
vulnerability, your limitations,your weaknesses.
Um, it's, it, it, it humanizesyou is what it does.
(06:13):
And I think we don't want to behuman.
Not in that way.
Not, not in a vulnerable.
And that's that's that old C.
S.
Lewis line, right?
Where he's like to love anythingis to be vulnerable.
And that's our greatest fear in
Jeff (06:23):
See, that's really interesting.
Yeah, we have a lot ofambivalence.
Towards our humanity and Uh,Steve talks about being rightly
sized humans, but one, we can'ttreat our limitations and
weaknesses with contempt to denythem.
And nor can we.
(06:44):
overcorrect and tried to besuperhuman and to be able to
work hard enough with whateverour type Enneagram type
strategies may be to actually besuperhuman and to eliminate
neediness,
Adam (06:58):
That's right.
Jeff (06:59):
but tons of ambivalence towards this.
And, and sadly, I, I, you know,we're coming into the holiday
season.
And so for many of us, we'regoing to be tight.
We're going to be with ourfamilies.
Our family had a relation, we,our family had a relationship
with our anxiety and our type,uh, has certain, it was been
impacted, nuanced by how ourneeds were related to by our
(07:26):
caregivers growing up.
And so for many of us, just, wechose these paths because as
kids they were the mostreasonable paths to deal with
our anxiety.
But in our adulthood, we startto find that that actually
causes problems for uspersonally, in our
relationships, in ourprofessional lives, spiritual
(07:48):
communities, whereovercompensation has, started to
bear its
Adam (07:56):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
It's interesting because thepathway to relationship is
vulnerability.
When you have an ambivalence orat best an ambivalence, at worst
a shame toward yourvulnerability.
Like if you just despise yourhumanness, your limitations, you
despise your neediness.
Um, you take yourself out ofvulnerability, which means you
(08:19):
take yourself out ofrelationship.
And so a lot of times we wonder,why are my relationships
struggling?
Why do I feel so disconnectedfrom myself?
Why do I feel so isolated fromGod or whatever?
And it, it, it, it happens whenwe take ourselves out of
vulnerability.
Um, so therefore kind of goingback to something we've said in
previous episodes, your anxietyis not just a thing that's wrong
(08:43):
with You that needs to be fixed.
If viewed rightly, it's actuallyan invitation into being known,
being seen, being vulnerable,and therefore it's, it's an
invitation into relationship.
Jeff (08:56):
You know, it's interesting when I think of, uh, The verses
in the Bible talk about fear,but not fearing, I typically
read them through the lens ofshame.
Do not fear.
that's just not going to be areality for going to fear.
(09:20):
Um, but there's always theinvitation for I'm with you cast
all your anxieties on himbecause he cares for
Adam (09:28):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Jeff (09:30):
mean, what's the Philippians four?
Adam (09:35):
Oh,
Jeff (09:36):
yeah, gosh, I can't believe I'm forgetting the
Adam (09:38):
you're talking that.
You're talking about, are youtalking about the peace of peace
of God That surpasses allunderstanding?
Jeff (09:43):
that's right.
I want, I'm trying to combine inmy head flippings to do nothing
out of selfish ambition or vainconceit, but that's not what I'm
looking for.
Adam (09:53):
4 is the whole like, be anxious about
Jeff (09:55):
There you go.
That's it.
but in prayer and petitionpresent your request to God.
And the peace of God, whichtranscends all understanding
will guard your hearts.
And the reality is like, no, no,hide your anxiety in shame.
Shame's actually trying, or theanxiety is trying to move
relationship that you need help.
(10:19):
hard to name that I need becausewe, we, when we have asked for
help, maybe we have a history ofshamed or.
Uh, when we express needs, wehave guilt that comes with it.
And we don't want that.
We don't want rejection.
Uh, we certainly don't want toface the loneliness that if we
have a spouse who doesn't relatewell to our neediness.
(10:43):
or if maybe it's the dynamic ofthe relationship is.
you're not needy, so they can beand they don't know what to do
whenever you have a need.
There's all kinds of dynamics toit that give us good reason to
not experience our anxiety.
today we're going to talk aboutwhat to do about it.
And so we're going to go throughthe triads.
(11:05):
We'll start at the top of theenneagram.
So why don't we jump into a typeeight first, uh, and how they
experience anxiety.
Now.
And I, you know, the reality is,is that we wouldn't say that
many, that aides are anxiouspeople, if you know what to look
for, they can be, they'reincredibly anxious.
(11:27):
It just looks very strong.
Adam (11:30):
that's right, think about It like this, so, so take that
word strong, that you just said,there's a strong response, and
there is a withdrawn response,so think about anxiety showing
up in each Enneagram type, Inthe form of exaggerations
Sometimes it's going to show upin, in an exaggerated response.
(11:52):
So it's, it's bravado, it's bigenergy.
It's doubling down on something.
It's becoming more aggressive.
It's becoming moreperfectionistic.
it's, you know, it's, it has, ithas an, a more of aggressive
attack with response to it.
So it shows up in exaggerations,exaggerated responses, but other
times it shows up indiminishments.
So.
(12:12):
You know, so many gram types,their anxiety shows up and in
their relational narcolepsy,they fall asleep, they withdraw,
they retreat, they move away.
Um, and so if you pay attentionto the strategies and how
diminished are the strategies,how exaggerated are the
strategies there, therein liesthe anxiety.
And so
Jeff (12:32):
It is interesting.
I, I sometimes, uh, will reflectback to I, I feel alone with
Adam (12:42):
right.
Jeff (12:42):
Like, I, don't, I don't feel like you're, we're, open
with one another, that I can beopen with you because you're not
being open about what's reallygoing on inside.
And this is particularly cancome across with AIDS because
they can be so independent.
Adam (13:00):
Mm
Jeff (13:01):
Um,
Adam (13:02):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (13:02):
they can be sort of isolated uh, at times, you know,
they're always boasting aboutwanting to step in and take
control or have control over,the relationships in their peer
groups.
And that's all anxiety.
Adam (13:17):
That's all anxiety.
Yeah.
It's all anxiety because it'sprotecting something.
And you know, anxiety is aprotector.
We talked about that from insideout too when, when the key
character anxiety says, I wasjust trying to protect her.
So for the eight, I thinkthere's an overcorrected,
overcorrection response toanxiety, um, where you, you push
(13:41):
others out of the way.
to get what you want.
you get big, which is really aform of rage.
Rage is less breaking stuff andhulking out.
Rage is just a big response.
Rage is, I'm trying to getbigger than the fear that's
inside of me.
And so, uh, eights will get kindof big, you know, they become
(14:01):
more assertive, moreconfrontational, and there's
nothing wrong with beingassertive and confrontational
and being direct.
Those are, Those are gifts, butI'm saying this, there's an
exaggeration to it.
They become more assertive.
Um, they kind of throw theirweight around.
They say, you know, you have todeal with And, uh, there's a
(14:21):
certain dominant domination thatthey bring into relationships
and that's an overcorrection totheir anxiety.
Um, A more helpful, healthyresponse to anxiety, which is
what we're talking about in thisepisode, would be for the eights
to practice vulnerability andrelent and the discipline of
relinquishing, relinquishingcontrol or the illusion of
(14:43):
control.
So, um, I think AIDs feel, theyexperience anxiety when they
feel powerless and when theyfeel vulnerable.
And so, it's kind of this, uh,counter, counter formation
practices.
How do, how do you grow in thatas you, you actually practice
vulnerability,
Jeff (15:01):
Can you imagine what that would look like?
Cause I'm thinking of teamcoaching that I've done and
presentations and workshops forvarious when there was an eight
in the room, can you imagine aneight showing up one day where
the team is sort of in, uh,they're in a difficult or
anxious moment where a project'snot going and an eight saying,
(15:27):
You know, I'm looking at thisproject and I, where it stands
right now, I'm really scared.
scared that we're going to andI'm inclined to take it over.
But I really want to make surethat we, I think we can all
tackle this together, but we're,we're going to, we're going to
need some additional
Adam (15:48):
Yeah.
Jeff (15:49):
Can you imagine what that would do for, I mean, I remember
one team, um, they, they taggedtheir, uh, their leader as your
eightness.
Adam (15:58):
ha ha.
Jeff (16:00):
And it was, it was sort of like a batch versus taking that
as, Oh no, you're seeing theunhealthy side of and versus the
vulnerable side because it, youknow, for an eight to move
towards their anxiety so that itmoves them towards people and
out of isolation and to be ableto address the real fear that's
(16:23):
in betrayal,
Adam (16:25):
Oh, Oh, Yes.
Jeff (16:28):
it's going to be through vulnerability.
Adam (16:31):
That's right.
That's
Jeff (16:32):
sometimes that's going to mean passing on taking
leadership and takingresponsible
Adam (16:39):
Yep.
And the aides listening to thisare going to say, Yeah.
but, and, you know, I want tooffer you this, this
encouragement of, uh, there's a,there's a, there's a discernment
to this.
I mean, you don't just practicevulnerability with just anyone.
There are people that will useit against you, but, but
unfortunately the only wayforward is to.
(16:59):
To put yourselves in, putyourself in situations where
you're practicing and Jeff'syour example of an eight leader
on a team delegating and, youknow, letting go of control,
like, let, you know, lettingother people drive and trusting
other people to be responsiblewith it.
That's, that's a, that's aperfect example of kind of what
this, how this looks in everydaylife, what this looks like.
(17:20):
Um, shall we talk about the, uh,let's talk about type nine.
Both of us are married to nines,
Jeff (17:26):
We are.
Adam (17:27):
so we have
Jeff (17:27):
anxious at all.
She's usually very calm, verywise, and sober minded.
Uh, I think I've said in theprevious episode, whenever
experienced Beth anxiety, youdon't, don't live in this hood.
Like you need to go home.
(17:48):
get out of my six world.
Adam (17:50):
let me have this one.
Jeff (17:52):
You can't handle this, this down here in the six world
of the Enneagram symbol.
Uh,
Adam (17:59):
that's right.
That's right.
Yes.
And so, of course, we know our,our type nines do experience
anxiety.
And I think an overcorrection,uh, you know, an unhealthy
response to it as they sort ofdouble down on their withdrawal.
Um, and so there's an, there'san escape.
They're looking for the escapehatch, you know, and usually the
(18:21):
escape hatch is just withinthemselves.
You know, whereas seven, it'sjust
Jeff (18:26):
a strong word for it,
Adam (18:30):
Yeah.
That's what it is.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Jeff (18:34):
numb, fill, or blind
Adam (18:37):
That's right.
That's That's right.
And that, that's, that's not thebest response.
It, it, it, it
Jeff (18:45):
I love your kind words.
That's not the best I feel likeyou're talking to your wife now,
like, Hey,
Adam (18:53):
yeah, she's going to,
Jeff (18:54):
there are other options.
Adam (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
She's going to listen to this.
Well, she knows because thething that we say all the time
in our house is if we don't dealwith the emotion or the anxiety,
it doesn't go away.
It gets worse.
That's, that's something we, we,I mean, it, it becomes impaired.
It comes out sideways.
It just, it just gets worse.
(19:18):
Uh, it may go to sleep.
And that, that's its ownproblem.
If it goes to sleep, it's sortof this sleeping dragon and it
will wake up, it will wake up,and so you have to deal with the
emotion and the anxiety that'sthe surface.
um, so with that in mind, a morehelpful strategy for our, our
nines is, um, to address theavoidance, uh, and assert your
(19:42):
needs, You know, um, you know,practice addressing your
avoidance tendencies, address ithead on.
What, as you said earlier, inthe words of our friend, Steve,
name it so you can tame it,name, name your, you know, Hey,
I'm engaging in inoculatingactivity.
I'm withdrawing.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm fallingasleep again.
(20:03):
Name those avoidance tendencies.
And then,
Jeff (20:06):
hard for nines.
At least this is what myexperience has been with The
reason she doesn't want toParticularly name it with me,
so, I mean, even just yesterday,she came into, we, work from
home, and she's on our backpatio, and then I'm, in my
office, she comes in, and Icould tell that she's pretty
(20:27):
sad, and she was overwhelmed.
Well, nines don't want to be aburden to anyone.
And she's got a whole host ofstories where her needs were a
problem in her family of origin.
And so she learned to isolateand disassociate from very early
on.
And so for her to come into myoffice saying, I, I need
(20:50):
attunement means that I'minconveniencing another person,
which is the last thing that anine wants to be is a burden to
other people.
They're trying to make them allhappy.
Adam (21:02):
I know.
I know.
But that's huge.
I mean, you just, you just gaveus the example because
addressing avoidance, the otherthing I said was asserting your
needs.
So for Beth to walk in youroffice and say, I, here's what I
need.
I mean, I need attunement.
I need somebody to see me.
I need Um, or I need to confrontyou Ooh, that's, that's, you
(21:28):
talk about step, you
Jeff (21:29):
Yeah, that's another world.
That's another planet.
Like might as well be Mars.
We're just trying to get to themoon here, Adam.
We're having trouble with that.
And now you're talking aboutgoing to Mars.
Adam (21:38):
Exactly.
Well, it all feels veryvulnerable.
we're talking about in thisepisode is that vulnerability is
the, is the hard thing, butthat's what anxiety is inviting
us And all of these are going toalways feel counterintuitive.
I mean, they're all counterformation practices.
You've got to go The oppositeway.
Usually you've got to go right.
You've got to go.
You've Got to go right into thecave,
Jeff (22:00):
the let's talk about type ones then.
Adam (22:03):
Yeah, let's do it.
So type ones, um, you know,their response to anxiety is
going to often be to become moreperfectionistic.
Like the louder, the innercritic and the more aggressive,
the inner critic, um, that's,that's, that's your anxiety.
And
Jeff (22:20):
that shows up towards themselves or towards or towards
organizing life so that thecritic can show up in a variety
of different ways.
But if there's this fixation ongetting it right and trying
harder to get things rightputting the pressure on other
people to join them in gettingit that's anxiety.
Adam (22:41):
Yes.
And it harms their relationshipsbecause it harms their working
relationships because they'remicro, they become
micromanagers, they becomeperfectionistic.
So there's, there's no tolerancefor mistakes.
Um, And, uh, and, and, and ithurts their, their personal
private relationships because oftheir intolerance of mistakes
and their refusal to hear thatthey can't, like they can't hear
(23:05):
other people's opinions orsuggestions or thoughts because
they're, it's, you know, my way,the right, way, all the way, my
way or the highway.
So that's not who they reallyare.
It's not who they want to be.
It's a part of them that isworking out of anxiety.
And so if, if they can learn toinstead practice self
compassion.
And embrace the gift ofimperfection.
(23:27):
Um, be kind to yourself.
You know, you, you have, youhave no business treating
yourself worse than God wouldSo, so many of my one friends
are like, they'll say out oftheir left brain, Oh, I know God
loves And they'll say with theirright brain, but I'm an idiot
and I can't do anything.
Right.
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Those two things can't livetogether, you know?
(23:48):
So you, you don't get to say Godloves me and I'm made in his
image and I'm beautiful and I'm,I'm an idiot and I'm, I suck.
And like, you can't, you, youcan't do that.
So, uh, be kind to yourself.
You know, it's that AndyKobler's try softer.
Um, and, and, and embrace thegift of imperfections, you know,
(24:09):
um, it's okay.
Nothing, nothing in this worldis perfect.
There's no such thing as balanceoutside of mathematics.
Everything is tension.
What's that Leonard Cohen line?
There's a crack in everything,but that's how the light gets
in.
Jeff (24:22):
I've not heard that before.
That's awesome.
Adam (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, So it's like, okay, there's a crack in
everything.
Okay.
That's true.
And that's also how the lightgets in.
So be the light, focus on thelight.
Uh, don't dismiss the cracks.
It's okay.
You have a gift of being areformer.
We need your, we need your gift,but, but you can't obsess.
You can't, again, exaggerationsIf you exaggerate the crack and
(24:46):
everything, that's your anxiety.
If you notice a name, the crackand everything.
And you move toward yourselfand, and the brokenness with
kindness and compassion.
That's healthy self
Jeff (25:01):
Uh, well, let's move on to type twos.
Adam (25:04):
let's do it, Jeff.
Yeah.
Do you want to, do you want toget us going on the heart triad?
Jeff (25:08):
Yeah.
So you know, what, uh,fundamentally what's causing the
anxiety for the type two is, amI loved?
And all of the activity thatcomes out of that in order to
secure love and for your needsto be taken care of.
For, you to have reciprocalrelationship with someone where
(25:31):
you're not the only oneproviding and addressing other
and serving other people, butthat they're taking care of you
as well.
And so the overcorrection wouldbe to continue to insert
yourself into other people'slives or to just.
busy yourself to deaden yourselfto the longing.
All of those are ways of copingwith the anxiety that's actually
(25:55):
going on in your heart.
it comes to the diminishment ofyourself.
You know, all of these are sortof, we, we talked a little bit
before, um, before we startedabout the gospel of anxiety.
It's something that I picked upon in a cohort with, uh, Steve
Cuss That the, the cost offollowing the anxiety for the
(26:16):
two is, they end up gettingburnt out.
They're exhausted.
And then what comes with itcomes out sideways because the
resentment starts to come out isthey start blaming it on other
people as to why they're soexhausted.
No one's taking care ofthemselves.
I have to do it for everybody,pushes everybody away when
(26:37):
they're trying to care for thetwo, whenever they're exhausted.
And so they ended up with kindof this self sabotaging behavior
that creates the very fear thatgot them to this place in, uh,
in the first place.
the healthier way of dealingwith need is that when you find
(26:57):
yourself overperforming inrelationships is to actually
begin to set boundaries, notnecessarily on other people, but
on yourself to provide care,even whenever there's an
inclination, uh, to go and toserve and to do something.
(27:18):
To take a step back.
It's, it's almost like I alwaysthink of, uh, Peter's response,
uh, at the last supper whenJesus is about to wash his feet.
He says, no, let me wash yourfeet.
And Jesus says, no, you havenothing with it.
Like it, there's a certain sensewhere Peter needed decline.
Sure.
Reasonable response when you'redealing with the savior of the
world.
Yeah.
(27:38):
Yeah.
You're going to want to wash hisfeet.
Sure.
True.
But the son of man did not cometo be served, but to serve and
for the two to deal with thediscomfort of being served,
being loved and facing the fearthat's actually driving the
behavior.
Adam (27:59):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
I think good,
Jeff (28:02):
of
Adam (28:03):
well, I think a good example of that in an image is
twos, just learn how to take offthe cape and, and put on the
oxygen mask.
Um, you know, if you findyourself needing to rescue
others, needing to be there forothers, needing to help others,
we all, we all want to honor youfor that gift.
We're all super thankful.
(28:24):
And when we need you, you'rethere.
You are there and, and, but youhave to take care of yourself.
So it's as, it's as simple.
It's not easy, but it's thissimple.
It's scheduling me time to, torecharge, to ensure your own
emotional balance.
You know, it's, it's learninghow to say no, which by the way,
(28:45):
It's not that you're bad.
It's not that people are bad atsaying no.
Every, every time you say yes tosomething, there isn't an errant
no inside that.
Yes.
So if I say yes to, you know,joining, um, a city basketball
league for, you know, men whoare age 40 to 45, uh, I'm saying
no to something.
Jeff (29:04):
for that, by the way,
Adam (29:05):
I don't know.
I don't, I don't know.
Jeff (29:08):
I'm not
Adam (29:08):
And what jet
Jeff (29:09):
the ball.
You're like, you're a one handed
Adam (29:10):
jet Jeff's Jeff does it just for clarity for our
listeners.
Jeff's not using that phrasemetaphorically.
Like I have a small set ofshoulders, so I can't carry the
weight of something.
He's being very literal.
I have a really, really, reallybad left shoulder.
I can't, I
Jeff (29:25):
You got one arm to dribble, to pass, to shoot.
I mean, you're just playing.
Adam (29:29):
There's a guy in our church who likes to, he's not
being, he's kind of being tonguein cheek, but he likes to come
up to me and I feel some, I feelsome shame saying this, but
there's a joke in there, but helikes to come up to me and say,
Adam, is there anything youcan't do?
Which there's tons of things.
And he knows that there's tonsof things, but I always respond
to him and say, yeah, lift myleft arm above my head.
(29:50):
Like I can't, I can't do it.
I can't do it.
Um, so, but that to bring itback to the twos, that's a good
phrase Uh, no, I'm unwilling todo it, you know?
And every time you say yes tosomething, you're saying no to
something else.
You're saying no to time withsomeone, time with yourself,
time with God, whatever.
(30:10):
So it's, it's, it's, it's asimple, not easy as learning to
say no and taking time to Yeah.
Jeff, Jeff, you want to tell usabout type three?
Jeff (30:19):
let's dive into type three, man.
I am noticing dude, I, my, mycold is, it's been lingering for
over a week now and I can telllike it's shaping my voice and
I'm wanting to sniff and cough.
I got all kinds of things goingon.
So sorry about my voice folks,but, uh, we'll keep, uh, we'll
keep trying so for the typethree, you know, the threes
(30:41):
don't always look good.
anxious, they look like they'vegot it together.
And that's what they've learnedsince childhood as to how to
deal with their anxiety, I wantto look put together.
particularly when they becomeparents, where they're looking
for their family to join them inthe effort to look like they've
got it together.
But it's the mask.
(31:03):
And further distance they getfrom the mask, or they get from
their true self and buy into themask, Sadly, the more
hyperactive, hypervigilant andovercorrection actually losing
their sense of self and don'teven remember what a true self
(31:28):
And so they, they shape shift.
They, they adapt to becomewhatever others value They're
reading the room.
They're reading the community.
What does it look like to beNow, the strategy for the three
is when you start to notice theparticular image that you're
(31:49):
trying to curate, or you startto see that your, your family or
your friends are not joining inyour, in your effort to look
good, Is to actually be honestwith what you fear in the
moment.
The, the fear that you, failuremay be a possibility that
(32:10):
mistakes have been made to beable to admit that you have need
and that you need others in yourand to stop putting the
expectations on leaders aroundyou or team members or family a
great litmus test to know howanxious Now, the good news is,
(32:31):
is that God's put in certainrestraints in our lives.
And so for the three, you'llstart to notice that your body,
start to experience someweariness, some burnout.
to, like, the loneliness of thethree, whenever people, you've
pushed so many people away.
no one, feeling like no onereally knows you or cares about
(32:54):
you.
Well, that's some of therepercussions of what it means
to live according to the mask toliving out the anxious life.
And it comes at the of yourself,of being loved and appreciated
be in the presence of others whowill attune to you be present
with you and show you love.
And that would be very difficultan anxious
Adam (33:18):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll jump in and say, you know,uh, one example of what it could
look like to, you know, practiceauthenticity and rest kind of
the counter formation to anxietyfor the six.
Um, I mean for the three is, uh,I would prioritize relationships
over accomplishments.
(33:40):
Um, There's a, there's a saying,the quality of your life and
work.
So notice the word work in thequality of your life and work
depends on the quality of yourrelationships.
Um, I can't remember her name,something Carnes.
I think she may have foundedhospice, Jeff.
She, she wrote, she wrote alittle, she wrote a little
pamphlet and, uh, I have it backhere on my bookshelf.
(34:02):
You can read it in like 10minutes, but it's a pamphlet on
how to sit with someone whenthey're dying.
And, um, I remember reading as apastor years ago and, you know,
one of the things she says inthere is there is this human
phenomenon, it's been recordedAll over the world, all over the
world, spoken in differentlanguages where people on their
deathbed say, they never say, Iwish I would have accomplished I
(34:24):
wish I would have worked longer.
I wish I would have workedharder.
The thing, top of consciousness,top of heart, pulsating in their
body is relationships,relationships, relationships,
who mattered most to you, who,who do you belong with and
matter to, and who belongs toyou and matters to you.
And so for the three, it'srealizing that you can never
(34:46):
accomplish or achieve enough,and the thing that makes your
life.
The things that makes your lifeworth and worthy is the, the
people right in front of you.
So it's, it's, look, prioritizerelationships over
accomplishments is, is, is gonnacalm your anxiety down quite a
bit.
Jeff (35:03):
All righty.
Well, let's look into the typefour.
the type fours, uh, when I hearof, uh, the things that fours
are anxious about, um, numberone, some fours will be very
honest about their anxiety andthey kind of wear it on their
and they lead with it.
Others are much more privateabout it.
(35:25):
and they don't want to drawattention to their suffering.
But with all that being said,what comes to mind for me when
the four's anxiety is online,the imagination.
projecting onto the world thatanxiety and the anxiety's
interpretation of relationshipsor circumstances.
(35:50):
So they're, You know, the, theStoics were, um, wrote about it,
about suffering more than isnecessary because worry, uh,
it's not even happened yet andyou're already starting to
suffer.
but it hasn't happened.
And I think the reality is forthe four suffering before it
happens
Adam (36:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (36:12):
maybe, maybe that if can just.
plan it, if I can feel it now,it won't hurt as I'll be able to
face the disappointment, in thereally no one's going to be
there
Adam (36:28):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (36:28):
the reality is, is that rarely, uh, are those
projections And it puts peoplein a, in a negative spot because
there's no way that they'regoing to come because you've
already pinioned hold them onwhat you think they believe
about So you've just projectedyour own lies about who you are
(36:52):
onto them.
But when a four is hard as itrests, and they practice
gratitude.
And they start to get someemotional equanimity, emotional
So we're, we're not entertainingthe, the fanciful dreams about
(37:12):
how people may or may not loveus, may or may not receive us or
act according to our to ourdesires we start to accept life
and reality life and reality'sterms, start to experience
emotional sobriety.
Adam (37:32):
That's right.
Jeff (37:33):
And so part of this is just, I mean, simple practices
like, uh, just practicinggratitude.
That rather than allowingyourself fantasize about these
actually put it down on paperand start writing out what is it
that you're actually gratefulHow are people in reality
(37:54):
showing to help that part ofyour heart that needs to hear
that you're okay, that you are
Adam (38:01):
mm hmm, mm hmm, Yeah, look up, look up the, the
neuroscience of gratitude.
And the studies that have beendone, uh, by Cindy stellar on
anxiety and gratitude cannot coexist in the brain.
It's interesting where, whereanxiety and gratitude lives.
And I'm, I'm off my skis here.
So I'm not, I'm not aneuroscientist, but, um, I, I do
(38:24):
know how to read.
Uh, so, so I'm regurgitating,I'm regurgitating what I've
read, but that, that, that,That's They, you know, they,
they exist in the same neurocenters.
And so it's really hard for themto live together.
So that anxiety, that feeling ofsomething's missing, that
gnawing, anxious feeling of I'minadequate and something's
missing.
The gratitude journal and thepractice of gratitude, it's not
(38:47):
reframing.
It's not inauthentic.
It's not the power of positivethinking, even.
It's it's just actually thediscipline of gratitude.
And that alone will combat you,the emotional spiraling falling
the anxiety.
Jeff (39:07):
It's scarcity.
Adam (39:09):
That's right.
Jeff (39:09):
There's not enough.
And all types will deal withthat idea and gratitude reminds
small gifts that have been thatmorsels along the
Adam (39:23):
That's right.
Jeff (39:23):
remind us Well, we've got the five, six and sevens, uh,
left to go here, Adam.
Adam (39:31):
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Yeah.
So for, for fives, you know, theoverreaction to anxiety is you
may see yourself going deeperinto your mind.
Spending more time, you know,withdrawn, more time learning,
thinking, problem solving, youbecome more detached from
reality.
Um, and, and so that's, that'swhat You might notice.
(39:53):
That would be an overcorrection.
Again, some solitude is, isnecessary and helpful, but if
you're going into full blownisolation and withdrawal, that's
an exaggerated response.
Um, and that would be, uh, thatwould be an anxious reaction.
So a strategy is to, you know,set limits on your isolation.
Which again, it's, it's alwaysgoing to feel like going into
(40:15):
the cave and doing the thingthat feels hard, the upstream
practice.
But if you can, if you canmaintain small, but meaningful.
relationships and socialconnections, even in the midst
of your, your solitude.
Um, you can, you're going to,you're going to help yourself
from falling deeper into the,the emotional withdrawal and the
(40:35):
anxiety.
Um, in addition to that, Ithink, you know, grounding
activities for the five likebreath, work, meditation, those
kinds of things, help themreconnect with the present
moment and get.
It's interesting, get back intheir body.
And so what fives do to surviveis they, they go out of their
body.
We all, we all are going out ofour body.
(40:56):
We all have escapists, you know,strategies to get outside of our
body and that's, and the anxietythat's there, but they, they do
it by going into their heads.
And so the, the breath work,meditation, those kinds of
practices bring you back intoyour body so that you can heal.
What is the anxiety within?
Um, rather than be controlled byit and live reacting to it.
(41:19):
So, Jeff, you have any thoughts?
Jeff (41:21):
got a very strong five part to my heart.
And, For a while now, I've beenwalking I'll walk for most days.
I walk about an hour each ButI've stopped listening to books.
it's not that listening to booksis bad.
(41:42):
It's habit to be in andConstantly learning, but I would
realize that I would bringanxiety to And that would
translate into this kind ofhyper focus or, or over
performing, uh, in our Wantingto bring change or insight into
(42:04):
But whenever I transition tolistening to music and I, um,
one of my favorite ones tolisten to is a band called, I
think it's mute.
M U E.
And we've joked about it byfamily joke.
We laugh at me because of itbecause it's, techno marching
band
Adam (42:25):
Yeah.
You introduced me to this band.
It's incredible.
Jeff (42:28):
and it's it's super fun, but it's very rhythmic and it's
interesting because I'm muchmore attuned So, you know last
October I had a heart incidentand that led to getting multiple
bypass And so I I'm much moreattuned to my breathing heart
rate feeling of my feet hittingthe pavement Even the just the
(42:53):
experience of being outside forthat period Um, I'm much more
attuned to my body.
I, I will say I, I don't walkwith Beth or other people.
Usually I just but I wouldimagine even for the five that
even a couple, the couplewalking with a spouse or with a
(43:16):
family just to get you in tuneout of your head, and into
reality your body with anotherperson.
can be incredibly anxietyreducing connected with other
people and to kind of get out oftrying to take care Now we've
(43:37):
talked a lot about sixesalready, but, uh, you know,
Adam, if we want to share alittle bit more about the six
world, uh, where, please, pleasedo so and fill us in on how it
is that you have mastered youranxiety and live the serene
life.
Adam (43:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm, uh, I'm better atteaching this than I am doing
it.
And, uh, but so I don't know ifI've mastered but I will say
that there is an overcorrectionresponse to anxiety that I've
noticed in myself and in othersixes.
Um, and it's a complicatedresponse.
Sometimes it, it's, it's thisreaction of blind loyalty, You
(44:15):
know, to a person or ideology.
Uh, sometimes it's, uh, um, Youget paralyzed by overthinking.
That's an overcorrection.
If you find yourselfoverthinking, uh, worst case
scenario, fantasizing, andyou're stuck, um, that's, you
know, you're spun out and stuckin anxiety.
Or this is an interestingresponse, Jeff, but sometimes
(44:36):
sixes just become rebellious.
And that's, that's, that's likethe eight.
You know, type energy.
So, you know, one to one, sixmight respond to their anxiety
by becoming rebellious toward aperson or a system.
Um, and so, you know, that's,that, that, that's how, you
know, the over overreaction orovercorrection of, of a six can
(44:56):
show up when they're anxious.
Now, a strategy for that is, um,focus what's on what's inside
your control rather than what'soutside of your control.
Um, and then developing selftrust and self affirmation.
You know, um, Six is anxietyoften comes from, from this
insecurity or self doubt.
And then just from the fear ofthe unknown, like I don't have
(45:19):
control of, I don't, I don'tknow, and I don't have control
of what I don't And so, um, youknow, to, to, to limit that, to
limit the worst case scenariothinking you can practice,
there's a healthy way to docognitive reframing, you know,
challenging the negativebeliefs, uh, challenging the,
the distorted beliefs, remindingyourself of what is true.
(45:41):
Um, and then find someone thatyou trust that can hold up the
mirror and look at you and say,Hey, you, you can trust
yourself.
Um, one of the most helpfulmoments I ever had in my life
was there's a mutual friend thatwe also have named Rich Plass.
I can literally remember where Iwas standing in Louisville,
Kentucky, when Rich put his handon my chest, he just stuck his
(46:02):
hand out and put his hand on mychest and said, Adam.
You can trust And for a moment,I felt like Superman.
I felt like I could, you know?
Now, unfortunately, I, I haven'tstayed in that same place of
confidence, but I come back tothat moment often, and I remind
myself, okay, I can trustmyself, you know?
(46:24):
Um, so what about you, Jeff, asa six?
What, what's, what's going on inyou as we talk about the six and
their response
Jeff (46:30):
of the things that, because I just had this flywheel
of a mind can just go, go.
I'm ruminating on the samethings.
I will find myself ruminatingand coming up.
I mean, we're, we're creating anew course for people who want
to use the Enneagram inrelationships.
(46:51):
was literally half asleepplanning out how to.
how to structure this particularexperience and I can't, I don't
remember what I was thinking.
I just remember waking up like,what have you been, what do you
do?
Cause I I'm anxious.
I'm scared about And my mind isrunning.
(47:12):
of the things that's reallyhelped are, are actually written
prayers, but the two that cometo mind that I use the most are
one, the and number two is theLord's prayer.
there, There just happens to bea number of people that I'm, I'm
mindful of in our neighborhoodare going through very difficult
(47:37):
even medically for And so I, Idon't know what to pray, but
when I can pray, I pray the, theLord's prayer.
Adam (47:47):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (47:50):
because, uh, because of how it's, encompasses so much,
even the things that I might notordinarily be I can eloquently
and try to form this nice andwhat gives me a sense of
boundaries what you were justsaying that I, I'm not
superhuman.
(48:11):
I don't know it I don't know allthe specifics So as I walk by
their house, I simply just And Ido that with a simple childlike
don't know what to pray But Iknow that when Jesus said you
don't know what to pray.
Here's what to pray
Adam (48:32):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
It's funny that you talk aboutthe prayers.
I have a, on my desk, I keepthis prayer of surrender and
it's, it's from my friends overat the Eden Project, but it, it
says, I'll just read it.
It's really short, but it says,uh, blessed Trinity, grant me
the grace to open up to yourpresence, receive what you give,
(48:54):
release what you take.
lack what you withhold and dowhat you require.
And I find my, it's, it justputs you in a posture of open
And I find myself that when I'min this posture, it's hard to
stay.
overwhelmed by anxiety.
I'm not saying the anxiety justmagically goes away, but I'm
(49:16):
saying it creates some healthyspace between me and the anxious
part.
Um, so I agree with you, Jeff,on those prayers, uh, can be
super helpful and grounding.
Well, should we talk aboutsevens?
Jeff (49:28):
let's round it off with type sevens
Adam (49:30):
Let's do it.
We save the most fun for last.
Um, yeah, so sevens, you know,the overreaction response to
anxiety is maybe to, to, tobecome a, uh, A bit flighty, you
know, to, to, to just be theinability to be present.
I've what's next.
I've got to stay stimulated, youknow, and I've got to search for
new people, new experiences,have more fun, stay entertained.
(49:55):
You may find yourself lashingout.
Um, you know, maybe evendemanding that, that, you know,
you get the satisfaction and,and the, the fun and freedom
that you desire.
So you don't want any kind ofrestraints on you.
Those are all evidences ofanxiety and kind of
overreactions or overcorrectionsrather to your anxiety.
Um, a more helpful strategy andmore helpful response would be
(50:19):
to, uh, tolerate discomfort,which is really, really tough,
hard to do, uh, and practicemindfulness.
Practice being present.
That's what I mean bymindfulness.
Um, you know, the anxiety onlygets kicked up and, and, and it
throws gas on the anxiety, onthe fire of the anxiety to
constantly seek stimulation.
(50:40):
Cause there's no, it's neverenough.
And so the more you, the morestimulated, stimulation or
experiences you seek, the moreyou want, the more the anxiety
grows.
And so to practice being stilland being present, Again, it's
coming back into your bodyrather than escaping your body.
I know that's the fear.
(51:00):
That's the vulnerability.
That's the cave.
I don't want to go in there.
I don't want, I don't want todeal with what's in but that's
actually the way forward, uh, isto, to tolerate the moments of
discomfort where you return hometo yourself, back inside your
body.
and face what you've and facethe feelings you have about what
(51:23):
you've lived and be honest aboutit.
Um, and so, you know, there'smindfulness apps, there's group
work you can do.
There's, I would find, find acoach, find a therapist, you
know, find a spiritual director,someone that can help you just
learn to be still and do, dothis healthy introspection.
Uh, so Jeff, what are yourthoughts about a seven?
Jeff (51:44):
Yeah, the one thing that I am mindful of in my
relationships with sevens, uh,that oftentimes I, don't feel
that they're present.
They might be frenetic withsomething else that's going on,
but there's, there's like anover functioning, a hyper energy
that they bring don't feel likethey're there with Now, the sad
(52:08):
thing is, is that Sevens createtheir own loneliness they're,
they're not sitting with people.
Now, there are some types ofseven that try to avoid, the
negative experiences orproblematic, disruptive by
(52:30):
leading the team, leading thegroup of friends, the sad thing
is that they're not present tothem
Adam (52:40):
That's right.
Jeff (52:41):
to remember that you and your peers are, they are the
gift.
They are the experience thatwhat you're longing for is to
someone to be, to sit And whatthey're longing for is not your
great fun ideas, just to bepresent for you to be present
with them because you have theopportunity, the strength to
(53:04):
bring light very difficult, uh,circumstances.
it's not this hyper energy to goand and to get things done.
more about being at rest.
having a non anxious lives ofothers and experiencing from
(53:24):
other people.
Adam (53:26):
That's right.
Yeah.
Jeff (53:30):
we hope you found, uh, this particular, these three
episodes helpful and, you know,in light of all the things that
are going on culturally andpersonally, uh, and
relationally, there's a lot oftransition happening and we hope
that you come to anunderstanding of how your
anxiety is particular type andthat you've learned something
about those around you thatyou're in a relationship about
(53:52):
how their anxiety and so we hopeyou found some sense of
direction, you know, give ussome feedback.
We'd love to see your commentsand to help us understand, maybe
even help others to understandhow anxiety and what you've done
about your anxiety, how it showsup in your life.
So be sure to leave us somecomments, uh, and be sure to
like and subscribe, um, so thatyou can get more content as we
(54:13):
were planning for the holidaysand the podcast coming up.
Um, if you do have questions,don't forget, you will always
reach out to us at info at yourenneagram coach.
com.
We'd be happy answer yourquestions there.
Um, and so, uh, Adam, thanksagain for hanging out with me
and talking about this.
Uh, and I really do hope thatpeople have been encouraged and
(54:34):
have a little bit of directionon how to deal with, uh, their
own anxiety in a particularlyanxious season of
Adam (54:41):
it's been a pleasure.
Hey friends.
It looks like we've got yourattention because we are talking
about anxiety and how anxietyshows up for Enneagram type.
If you haven't taken a look yet,be sure to check out the two
previous episodes where we talkabout what is anxiety and how it
shows up for each Enneagramtype.
Now, in this particular episode,we're going to be discussing
(00:20):
what, what do you do?
Okay.
You, uh, How does it showing up?
And then what are you going todo about it?
Is it something that alwaysneeds to be eliminated?
Is it actually helpful?
And your body's telling yousomething, all of these things
we take into consideration.
So today we want this to be ahelpful episode for you to
discuss how to handle anxietyaccording to your type.
(00:41):
So, what exactly is it and howdoes it impact each Enneagram
type and what are some ways inwhich each type can respond to
anxiety to regulate themselvesand to navigate their in their
professional lives clarity andmore, uh, serenity.
Well, welcome to your Enneagramcoach the podcast.
(01:03):
I am Jeff McCord Co founder andCEO and here I'm with Adam
Breckinridge the director ofcoaching Adam.
We're glad you're here
Adam (01:13):
So good to be with you, Jeff, as always.
Jeff (01:16):
the funny thing is we were just talking before I You've got
two sixes talking about anxiety,uh, which stereotypically sixes
have, um, yeah, sixes have themost, are supposed to have the
most anxiety.
And I have to say, I woke up, mybody was on.
I mean, I, It just seems like mynervous system dealing with some
(01:40):
fear and uncertainty, wonderingif there's anyone outside of me,
it's going to give me a sense ofdirection and solve some of the
things that I'm worried about.
you know, anxiety really doesplay a significant role in each
type's life and we seem to bekind of
Adam (02:01):
That's right.
Yeah.
It sounds like you're prime andready to have a conversation
about anxiety this morning.
You know, I, I woke up in asimilar way.
I really did.
I woke up in a similar way thismorning.
Um, and I was reminded, wetalked about this, you know, a
couple, couple episodes ago thatthere was an article that, that,
that said that, um, you know,and I'm, and I'm thankful for
(02:22):
research like this because itreminds me that I'm, it makes me
feel less lonely when I realizedthat.
You and me and my six friendsare not, we don't have the
corner market on anxiety.
Anxiety really is a humanphenomenon.
And we talked about this articlethat said that, you know, 41
percent of American adults areexperiencing peak stress levels
for the year.
(02:42):
Um, right now.
And, you know, uh, the AmericanPsychiatric Association does,
does this annual mental healthpoll.
And this year, so far this year,43 percent of adults say they
feel more anxious than they didthe previous Um, the previous
year it was 37 percent in 2023.
In 32 percent of adults.
And so, Right now people areparticularly anxious.
(03:05):
Uh, you know, current events areplaying into that economy,
election, all kinds of stuffthat's going on there.
But, but Yeah.
I think Jeff, what, I guess whatI'm trying to say is I feel you
when you say you wake up anxiousthis morning, I feel You And you
know, I think probably ourlisteners and our audience feel
you
Jeff (03:26):
You know, and it's interesting for me that I, I'm
not sure that, well, to behonest with you, I, when
probably 2011 I was on asabbatical and we actually spent
some time with the marriage andfamily guy, uh, therapist, who
originally introduced ourfriends to the Enneagram back in
(03:48):
2001.
And for years I thought I was atype eight.
Uh, because the way in which Iwould handle my anxiety was I
would isolate and shut down.
I don't necessarily getfrenetic, uh, it's not something
that I show other people aroundme.
(04:13):
Um, And, you know, part of thattoo is, uh, I was a place kicker
in college and so learning howto just shut it all down and
focus on the job and not getoverwhelmed by all the things
that are happening around you.
Uh, maybe that was a skill thatI learned,
Adam (04:28):
Yeah.
Jeff (04:29):
I remember, uh, after doing some story work, so I had
done some exercises around thehighs and uh, all the highs were
associated with having a mentor.
And the guy said, I, I, I'm notsure you're an eight.
I like what you're telling me isthat you're a six.
I was pissed.
(04:49):
really, really angry because Ididn't want to answer.
I didn't want to name.
My anxiety.
Now, a gentleman that we bothfollow and appreciate, um, Steve
cuss, um, at the best domainname ever, Steve
Adam (05:04):
I know.
Jeff (05:05):
um, a.
com, but he, you know, he usesthe phrase, you've got to name
it to tame it.
that's the important thing aboutwhy we're going through each of
the nine types, because not eachnight may not think of
themselves as being anxious.
But the kind of frenetic energy,overcorrection, hypervigilance
(05:28):
that comes from each of thetypes.
Like if, if Jeff goes quiet,he's trying to shut it down.
Adam (05:37):
Yeah.
Jeff (05:38):
I've got a cold, um, infection, so I might know,
Adam, I mean, what, what are youthinking?
Why are we so afraid to admit toour anxiety?
Adam (05:50):
Well, I think the greatest fear of all is to be vulnerable
and nothing puts you in touchwith your vulnerability like
admitting your anxiety.
I mean, your anxiety.
Your anxiety is pointing toyour, your neediness, your
vulnerability, your limitations,your weaknesses.
Um, it's, it, it, it humanizesyou is what it does.
(06:13):
And I think we don't want to behuman.
Not in that way.
Not, not in a vulnerable.
And that's that's that old C.
S.
Lewis line, right?
Where he's like to love anythingis to be vulnerable.
And that's our greatest fear in
Jeff (06:23):
See, that's really interesting.
Yeah, we have a lot ofambivalence.
Towards our humanity and Uh,Steve talks about being rightly
sized humans, but one, we can'ttreat our limitations and
weaknesses with contempt to denythem.
And nor can we.
(06:44):
overcorrect and tried to besuperhuman and to be able to
work hard enough with whateverour type Enneagram type
strategies may be to actually besuperhuman and to eliminate
neediness,
Adam (06:58):
That's right.
Jeff (06:59):
but tons of ambivalence towards this.
And, and sadly, I, I, you know,we're coming into the holiday
season.
And so for many of us, we'regoing to be tight.
We're going to be with ourfamilies.
Our family had a relation, we,our family had a relationship
with our anxiety and our type,uh, has certain, it was been
impacted, nuanced by how ourneeds were related to by our
(07:26):
caregivers growing up.
And so for many of us, just, wechose these paths because as
kids they were the mostreasonable paths to deal with
our anxiety.
But in our adulthood, we startto find that that actually
causes problems for uspersonally, in our
relationships, in ourprofessional lives, spiritual
(07:48):
communities, whereovercompensation has, started to
bear its
Adam (07:56):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
It's interesting because thepathway to relationship is
vulnerability.
When you have an ambivalence orat best an ambivalence, at worst
a shame toward yourvulnerability.
Like if you just despise yourhumanness, your limitations, you
despise your neediness.
Um, you take yourself out ofvulnerability, which means you
(08:19):
take yourself out ofrelationship.
And so a lot of times we wonder,why are my relationships
struggling?
Why do I feel so disconnectedfrom myself?
Why do I feel so isolated fromGod or whatever?
And it, it, it, it happens whenwe take ourselves out of
vulnerability.
Um, so therefore kind of goingback to something we've said in
previous episodes, your anxietyis not just a thing that's wrong
(08:43):
with You that needs to be fixed.
If viewed rightly, it's actuallyan invitation into being known,
being seen, being vulnerable,and therefore it's, it's an
invitation into relationship.
Jeff (08:56):
You know, it's interesting when I think of, uh, The verses
in the Bible talk about fear,but not fearing, I typically
read them through the lens ofshame.
Do not fear.
that's just not going to be areality for going to fear.
(09:20):
Um, but there's always theinvitation for I'm with you cast
all your anxieties on himbecause he cares for
Adam (09:28):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Jeff (09:30):
mean, what's the Philippians four?
Adam (09:35):
Oh,
Jeff (09:36):
yeah, gosh, I can't believe I'm forgetting the
Adam (09:38):
you're talking that.
You're talking about, are youtalking about the peace of peace
of God That surpasses allunderstanding?
Jeff (09:43):
that's right.
I want, I'm trying to combine inmy head flippings to do nothing
out of selfish ambition or vainconceit, but that's not what I'm
looking for.
Adam (09:53):
4 is the whole like, be anxious about
Jeff (09:55):
There you go.
That's it.
but in prayer and petitionpresent your request to God.
And the peace of God, whichtranscends all understanding
will guard your hearts.
And the reality is like, no, no,hide your anxiety in shame.
Shame's actually trying, or theanxiety is trying to move
relationship that you need help.
(10:19):
hard to name that I need becausewe, we, when we have asked for
help, maybe we have a history ofshamed or.
Uh, when we express needs, wehave guilt that comes with it.
And we don't want that.
We don't want rejection.
Uh, we certainly don't want toface the loneliness that if we
have a spouse who doesn't relatewell to our neediness.
(10:43):
or if maybe it's the dynamic ofthe relationship is.
you're not needy, so they can beand they don't know what to do
whenever you have a need.
There's all kinds of dynamics toit that give us good reason to
not experience our anxiety.
today we're going to talk aboutwhat to do about it.
And so we're going to go throughthe triads.
(11:05):
We'll start at the top of theenneagram.
So why don't we jump into a typeeight first, uh, and how they
experience anxiety.
Now.
And I, you know, the reality is,is that we wouldn't say that
many, that aides are anxiouspeople, if you know what to look
for, they can be, they'reincredibly anxious.
(11:27):
It just looks very strong.
Adam (11:30):
that's right, think about It like this, so, so take that
word strong, that you just said,there's a strong response, and
there is a withdrawn response,so think about anxiety showing
up in each Enneagram type, Inthe form of exaggerations
Sometimes it's going to show upin, in an exaggerated response.
(11:52):
So it's, it's bravado, it's bigenergy.
It's doubling down on something.
It's becoming more aggressive.
It's becoming moreperfectionistic.
it's, you know, it's, it has, ithas an, a more of aggressive
attack with response to it.
So it shows up in exaggerations,exaggerated responses, but other
times it shows up indiminishments.
So.
(12:12):
You know, so many gram types,their anxiety shows up and in
their relational narcolepsy,they fall asleep, they withdraw,
they retreat, they move away.
Um, and so if you pay attentionto the strategies and how
diminished are the strategies,how exaggerated are the
strategies there, therein liesthe anxiety.
And so
Jeff (12:32):
It is interesting.
I, I sometimes, uh, will reflectback to I, I feel alone with
Adam (12:42):
right.
Jeff (12:42):
Like, I, don't, I don't feel like you're, we're, open
with one another, that I can beopen with you because you're not
being open about what's reallygoing on inside.
And this is particularly cancome across with AIDS because
they can be so independent.
Adam (13:00):
Mm
Jeff (13:01):
Um,
Adam (13:02):
Mm hmm.
Jeff (13:02):
they can be sort of isolated uh, at times, you know,
they're always boasting aboutwanting to step in and take
control or have control over,the relationships in their peer
groups.
And that's all anxiety.
Adam (13:17):
That's all anxiety.
Yeah.
It's all anxiety because it'sprotecting something.
And you know, anxiety is aprotector.
We talked about that from insideout too when, when the key
character anxiety says, I wasjust trying to protect her.
So for the eight, I thinkthere's an overcorrected,
overcorrection response toanxiety, um, where you, you push
(13:41):
others out of the way.
to get what you want.
you get big, which is really aform of rage.
Rage is less breaking stuff andhulking out.
Rage is just a big response.
Rage is, I'm trying to getbigger than the fear that's
inside of me.
And so, uh, eights will get kindof big, you know, they become
(14:01):
more assertive, moreconfrontational, and there's
nothing wrong with beingassertive and confrontational
and being direct.
Those are, Those are gifts, butI'm saying this, there's an
exaggeration to it.
They become more assertive.
Um, they kind of throw theirweight around.
They say, you know, you have todeal with And, uh, there's a
(14:21):
certain dominant domination thatthey bring into relationships
and that's an overcorrection totheir anxiety.
Um, A more helpful, healthyresponse to anxiety, which is
what we're talking about in thisepisode, would be for the eights
to practice vulnerability andrelent and the discipline of
relinquishing, relinquishingcontrol or the illusion of
(14:43):
control.
So, um, I think AIDs feel, theyexperience anxiety when they
feel powerless and when theyfeel vulnerable.
And so, it's kind of this, uh,counter, counter formation
practices.
How do, how do you grow in thatas you, you actually practice
vulnerability,
Jeff (15:01):
Can you imagine what that would look like?
Cause I'm thinking of teamcoaching that I've done and
presentations and workshops forvarious when there was an eight
in the room, can you imagine aneight showing up one day where
the team is sort of in, uh,they're in a difficult or
anxious moment where a project'snot going and an eight saying,
(15:27):
You know, I'm looking at thisproject and I, where it stands
right now, I'm really scared.
scared that we're going to andI'm inclined to take it over.
But I really want to make surethat we, I think we can all
tackle this together, but we're,we're going to, we're going to
need some additional
Adam (15:48):
Yeah.
Jeff (15:49):
Can you imagine what that would do for, I mean, I remember
one team, um, they, they taggedtheir, uh, their leader as your
eightness.
Adam (15:58):
ha ha.
Jeff (16:00):
And it was, it was sort of like a batch versus taking that
as, Oh no, you're seeing theunhealthy side of and versus the
vulnerable side because it, youknow, for an eight to move
towards their anxiety so that itmoves them towards people and
out of isolation and to be ableto address the real fear that's
(16:23):
in betrayal,
Adam (16:25):
Oh, Oh, Yes.
Jeff (16:28):
it's going to be through vulnerability.
Adam (16:31):
That's right.
That's
Jeff (16:32):
sometimes that's going to mean passing on taking
leadership and takingresponsible
Adam (16:39):
Yep.
And the aides listening to thisare going to say, Yeah.
but, and, you know, I want tooffer you this, this
encouragement of, uh, there's a,there's a, there's a discernment
to this.
I mean, you don't just practicevulnerability with just anyone.
There are people that will useit against you, but, but
unfortunately the only wayforward is to.
(16:59):
To put yourselves in, putyourself in situations where
you're practicing and Jeff'syour example of an eight leader
on a team delegating and, youknow, letting go of control,
like, let, you know, lettingother people drive and trusting
other people to be responsiblewith it.
That's, that's a, that's aperfect example of kind of what
this, how this looks in everydaylife, what this looks like.
(17:20):
Um, shall we talk about the, uh,let's talk about type nine.
Both of us are married to nines,
Jeff (17:26):
We are.
Adam (17:27):
so we have
Jeff (17:27):
anxious at all.
She's usually very calm, verywise, and sober minded.
Uh, I think I've said in theprevious episode, whenever
experienced Beth anxiety, youdon't, don't live in this hood.
Like you need to go home.
(17:48):
get out of my six world.
Adam (17:50):
let me have this one.
Jeff (17:52):
You can't handle this, this down here in the six world
of the Enneagram symbol.
Uh,
Adam (17:59):
that's right.
That's right.
Yes.
And so, of course, we know our,our type nines do experience
anxiety.
And I think an overcorrection,uh, you know, an unhealthy
response to it as they sort ofdouble down on their withdrawal.
Um, and so there's an, there'san escape.
They're looking for the escapehatch, you know, and usually the
(18:21):
escape hatch is just withinthemselves.
You know, whereas seven, it'sjust
Jeff (18:26):
a strong word for it,
Adam (18:30):
Yeah.
That's what it is.
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
Jeff (18:34):
numb, fill, or blind
Adam (18:37):
That's right.
That's That's right.
And that, that's, that's not thebest response.
It, it, it, it
Jeff (18:45):
I love your kind words.
That's not the best I feel likeyou're talking to your wife now,
like, Hey,
Adam (18:53):
yeah, she's going to,
Jeff (18:54):
there are other options.
Adam (18:56):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
She's going to listen to this.
Well, she knows because thething that we say all the time
in our house is if we don't dealwith the emotion or the anxiety,
it doesn't go away.
It gets worse.
That's, that's something we, we,I mean, it, it becomes impaired.
It comes out sideways.
It just, it just gets worse.
(19:18):
Uh, it may go to sleep.
And that, that's its ownproblem.
If it goes to sleep, it's sortof this sleeping dragon and it
will wake up, it will wake up,and so you have to deal with the
emotion and the anxiety that'sthe surface.
um, so with that in mind, a morehelpful strategy for our, our
nines is, um, to address theavoidance, uh, and assert your
(19:42):
needs, You know, um, you know,practice addressing your
avoidance tendencies, address ithead on.
What, as you said earlier, inthe words of our friend, Steve,
name it so you can tame it,name, name your, you know, Hey,
I'm engaging in inoculatingactivity.
I'm withdrawing.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm fallingasleep again.
(20:03):
Name those avoidance tendencies.
And then,
Jeff (20:06):
hard for nines.
At least this is what myexperience has been with The
reason she doesn't want toParticularly name it with me,
so, I mean, even just yesterday,she came into, we, work from
home, and she's on our backpatio, and then I'm, in my
office, she comes in, and Icould tell that she's pretty
(20:27):
sad, and she was overwhelmed.
Well, nines don't want to be aburden to anyone.
And she's got a whole host ofstories where her needs were a
problem in her family of origin.
And so she learned to isolateand disassociate from very early
on.
And so for her to come into myoffice saying, I, I need
(20:50):
attunement means that I'minconveniencing another person,
which is the last thing that anine wants to be is a burden to
other people.
They're trying to make them allhappy.
Adam (21:02):
I know.
I know.
But that's huge.
I mean, you just, you just gaveus the example because
addressing avoidance, the otherthing I said was asserting your
needs.
So for Beth to walk in youroffice and say, I, here's what I
need.
I mean, I need attunement.
I need somebody to see me.
I need Um, or I need to confrontyou Ooh, that's, that's, you
(21:28):
talk about step, you
Jeff (21:29):
Yeah, that's another world.
That's another planet.
Like might as well be Mars.
We're just trying to get to themoon here, Adam.
We're having trouble with that.
And now you're talking aboutgoing to Mars.
Adam (21:38):
Exactly.
Well, it all feels veryvulnerable.
we're talking about in thisepisode is that vulnerability is
the, is the hard thing, butthat's what anxiety is inviting
us And all of these are going toalways feel counterintuitive.
I mean, they're all counterformation practices.
You've got to go The oppositeway.
Usually you've got to go right.
You've got to go.
You've Got to go right into thecave,
Jeff (22:00):
the let's talk about type ones then.
Adam (22:03):
Yeah, let's do it.
So type ones, um, you know,their response to anxiety is
going to often be to become moreperfectionistic.
Like the louder, the innercritic and the more aggressive,
the inner critic, um, that's,that's, that's your anxiety.
And
Jeff (22:20):
that shows up towards themselves or towards or towards
organizing life so that thecritic can show up in a variety
of different ways.
But if there's this fixation ongetting it right and trying
harder to get things rightputting the pressure on other
people to join them in gettingit that's anxiety.
Adam (22:41):
Yes.
And it harms their relationshipsbecause it harms their working
relationships because they'remicro, they become
micromanagers, they becomeperfectionistic.
So there's, there's no tolerancefor mistakes.
Um, And, uh, and, and, and ithurts their, their personal
private relationships because oftheir intolerance of mistakes
and their refusal to hear thatthey can't, like they can't hear
(23:05):
other people's opinions orsuggestions or thoughts because
they're, it's, you know, my way,the right, way, all the way, my
way or the highway.
So that's not who they reallyare.
It's not who they want to be.
It's a part of them that isworking out of anxiety.
And so if, if they can learn toinstead practice self
compassion.
And embrace the gift ofimperfection.
(23:27):
Um, be kind to yourself.
You know, you, you have, youhave no business treating
yourself worse than God wouldSo, so many of my one friends
are like, they'll say out oftheir left brain, Oh, I know God
loves And they'll say with theirright brain, but I'm an idiot
and I can't do anything.
Right.
And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Those two things can't livetogether, you know?
(23:48):
So you, you don't get to say Godloves me and I'm made in his
image and I'm beautiful and I'm,I'm an idiot and I'm, I suck.
And like, you can't, you, youcan't do that.
So, uh, be kind to yourself.
You know, it's that AndyKobler's try softer.
Um, and, and, and embrace thegift of imperfections, you know,
(24:09):
um, it's okay.
Nothing, nothing in this worldis perfect.
There's no such thing as balanceoutside of mathematics.
Everything is tension.
What's that Leonard Cohen line?
There's a crack in everything,but that's how the light gets
in.
Jeff (24:22):
I've not heard that before.
That's awesome.
Adam (24:24):
Yeah, yeah, So it's like, okay, there's a crack in
everything.
Okay.
That's true.
And that's also how the lightgets in.
So be the light, focus on thelight.
Uh, don't dismiss the cracks.
It's okay.
You have a gift of being areformer.
We need your, we need your gift,but, but you can't obsess.
You can't, again, exaggerationsIf you exaggerate the crack and
(24:46):
everything, that's your anxiety.
If you notice a name, the crackand everything.
And you move toward yourselfand, and the brokenness with
kindness and compassion.
That's healthy self
Jeff (25:01):
Uh, well, let's move on to type twos.
Adam (25:04):
let's do it, Jeff.
Yeah.
Do you want to, do you want toget us going on the heart triad?
Jeff (25:08):
Yeah.
So you know, what, uh,fundamentally what's causing the
anxiety for the type two is, amI loved?
And all of the activity thatcomes out of that in order to
secure love and for your needsto be taken care of.
For, you to have reciprocalrelationship with someone where
(25:31):
you're not the only oneproviding and addressing other
and serving other people, butthat they're taking care of you
as well.
And so the overcorrection wouldbe to continue to insert
yourself into other people'slives or to just.
busy yourself to deaden yourselfto the longing.
All of those are ways of copingwith the anxiety that's actually
(25:55):
going on in your heart.
it comes to the diminishment ofyourself.
You know, all of these are sortof, we, we talked a little bit
before, um, before we startedabout the gospel of anxiety.
It's something that I picked upon in a cohort with, uh, Steve
Cuss That the, the cost offollowing the anxiety for the
(26:16):
two is, they end up gettingburnt out.
They're exhausted.
And then what comes with itcomes out sideways because the
resentment starts to come out isthey start blaming it on other
people as to why they're soexhausted.
No one's taking care ofthemselves.
I have to do it for everybody,pushes everybody away when
(26:37):
they're trying to care for thetwo, whenever they're exhausted.
And so they ended up with kindof this self sabotaging behavior
that creates the very fear thatgot them to this place in, uh,
in the first place.
the healthier way of dealingwith need is that when you find
(26:57):
yourself overperforming inrelationships is to actually
begin to set boundaries, notnecessarily on other people, but
on yourself to provide care,even whenever there's an
inclination, uh, to go and toserve and to do something.
(27:18):
To take a step back.
It's, it's almost like I alwaysthink of, uh, Peter's response,
uh, at the last supper whenJesus is about to wash his feet.
He says, no, let me wash yourfeet.
And Jesus says, no, you havenothing with it.
Like it, there's a certain sensewhere Peter needed decline.
Sure.
Reasonable response when you'redealing with the savior of the
world.
Yeah.
(27:38):
Yeah.
You're going to want to wash hisfeet.
Sure.
True.
But the son of man did not cometo be served, but to serve and
for the two to deal with thediscomfort of being served,
being loved and facing the fearthat's actually driving the
behavior.
Adam (27:59):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Yep.
I think good,
Jeff (28:02):
of
Adam (28:03):
well, I think a good example of that in an image is
twos, just learn how to take offthe cape and, and put on the
oxygen mask.
Um, you know, if you findyourself needing to rescue
others, needing to be there forothers, needing to help others,
we all, we all want to honor youfor that gift.
We're all super thankful.
(28:24):
And when we need you, you'rethere.
You are there and, and, but youhave to take care of yourself.
So it's as, it's as simple.
It's not easy, but it's thissimple.
It's scheduling me time to, torecharge, to ensure your own
emotional balance.
You know, it's, it's learninghow to say no, which by the way,
(28:45):
It's not that you're bad.
It's not that people are bad atsaying no.
Every, every time you say yes tosomething, there isn't an errant
no inside that.
Yes.
So if I say yes to, you know,joining, um, a city basketball
league for, you know, men whoare age 40 to 45, uh, I'm saying
no to something.
Jeff (29:04):
for that, by the way,
Adam (29:05):
I don't know.
I don't, I don't know.
Jeff (29:08):
I'm not
Adam (29:08):
And what jet
Jeff (29:09):
the ball.
You're like, you're a one handed
Adam (29:10):
jet Jeff's Jeff does it just for clarity for our
listeners.
Jeff's not using that phrasemetaphorically.
Like I have a small set ofshoulders, so I can't carry the
weight of something.
He's being very literal.
I have a really, really, reallybad left shoulder.
I can't, I
Jeff (29:25):
You got one arm to dribble, to pass, to shoot.
I mean, you're just playing.
Adam (29:29):
There's a guy in our church who likes to, he's not
being, he's kind of being tonguein cheek, but he likes to come
up to me and I feel some, I feelsome shame saying this, but
there's a joke in there, but helikes to come up to me and say,
Adam, is there anything youcan't do?
Which there's tons of things.
And he knows that there's tonsof things, but I always respond
to him and say, yeah, lift myleft arm above my head.
(29:50):
Like I can't, I can't do it.
I can't do it.
Um, so, but that to bring itback to the twos, that's a good
phrase Uh, no, I'm unwilling todo it, you know?
And every time you say yes tosomething, you're saying no to
something else.
You're saying no to time withsomeone, time with yourself,
time with God, whatever.
(30:10):
So it's, it's, it's, it's asimple, not easy as learning to
say no and taking time to Yeah.
Jeff, Jeff, you want to tell usabout type three?
Jeff (30:19):
let's dive into type three, man.
I am noticing dude, I, my, mycold is, it's been lingering for
over a week now and I can telllike it's shaping my voice and
I'm wanting to sniff and cough.
I got all kinds of things goingon.
So sorry about my voice folks,but, uh, we'll keep, uh, we'll
keep trying so for the typethree, you know, the threes
(30:41):
don't always look good.
anxious, they look like they'vegot it together.
And that's what they've learnedsince childhood as to how to
deal with their anxiety, I wantto look put together.
particularly when they becomeparents, where they're looking
for their family to join them inthe effort to look like they've
got it together.
But it's the mask.
(31:03):
And further distance they getfrom the mask, or they get from
their true self and buy into themask, Sadly, the more
hyperactive, hypervigilant andovercorrection actually losing
their sense of self and don'teven remember what a true self
(31:28):
And so they, they shape shift.
They, they adapt to becomewhatever others value They're
reading the room.
They're reading the community.
What does it look like to beNow, the strategy for the three
is when you start to notice theparticular image that you're
(31:49):
trying to curate, or you startto see that your, your family or
your friends are not joining inyour, in your effort to look
good, Is to actually be honestwith what you fear in the
moment.
The, the fear that you, failuremay be a possibility that
(32:10):
mistakes have been made to beable to admit that you have need
and that you need others in yourand to stop putting the
expectations on leaders aroundyou or team members or family a
great litmus test to know howanxious Now, the good news is,
(32:31):
is that God's put in certainrestraints in our lives.
And so for the three, you'llstart to notice that your body,
start to experience someweariness, some burnout.
to, like, the loneliness of thethree, whenever people, you've
pushed so many people away.
no one, feeling like no onereally knows you or cares about
(32:54):
you.
Well, that's some of therepercussions of what it means
to live according to the mask toliving out the anxious life.
And it comes at the of yourself,of being loved and appreciated
be in the presence of others whowill attune to you be present
with you and show you love.
And that would be very difficultan anxious
Adam (33:18):
yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'll jump in and say, you know,uh, one example of what it could
look like to, you know, practiceauthenticity and rest kind of
the counter formation to anxietyfor the six.
Um, I mean for the three is, uh,I would prioritize relationships
over accomplishments.
(33:40):
Um, There's a, there's a saying,the quality of your life and
work.
So notice the word work in thequality of your life and work
depends on the quality of yourrelationships.
Um, I can't remember her name,something Carnes.
I think she may have foundedhospice, Jeff.
She, she wrote, she wrote alittle, she wrote a little
pamphlet and, uh, I have it backhere on my bookshelf.
(34:02):
You can read it in like 10minutes, but it's a pamphlet on
how to sit with someone whenthey're dying.
And, um, I remember reading as apastor years ago and, you know,
one of the things she says inthere is there is this human
phenomenon, it's been recordedAll over the world, all over the
world, spoken in differentlanguages where people on their
deathbed say, they never say, Iwish I would have accomplished I
(34:24):
wish I would have worked longer.
I wish I would have workedharder.
The thing, top of consciousness,top of heart, pulsating in their
body is relationships,relationships, relationships,
who mattered most to you, who,who do you belong with and
matter to, and who belongs toyou and matters to you.
And so for the three, it'srealizing that you can never
(34:46):
accomplish or achieve enough,and the thing that makes your
life.
The things that makes your lifeworth and worthy is the, the
people right in front of you.
So it's, it's, look, prioritizerelationships over
accomplishments is, is, is gonnacalm your anxiety down quite a
bit.
Jeff (35:03):
All righty.
Well, let's look into the typefour.
the type fours, uh, when I hearof, uh, the things that fours
are anxious about, um, numberone, some fours will be very
honest about their anxiety andthey kind of wear it on their
and they lead with it.
Others are much more privateabout it.
(35:25):
and they don't want to drawattention to their suffering.
But with all that being said,what comes to mind for me when
the four's anxiety is online,the imagination.
projecting onto the world thatanxiety and the anxiety's
interpretation of relationshipsor circumstances.
(35:50):
So they're, You know, the, theStoics were, um, wrote about it,
about suffering more than isnecessary because worry, uh,
it's not even happened yet andyou're already starting to
suffer.
but it hasn't happened.
And I think the reality is forthe four suffering before it
happens
Adam (36:11):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (36:12):
maybe, maybe that if can just.
plan it, if I can feel it now,it won't hurt as I'll be able to
face the disappointment, in thereally no one's going to be
there
Adam (36:28):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (36:28):
the reality is, is that rarely, uh, are those
projections And it puts peoplein a, in a negative spot because
there's no way that they'regoing to come because you've
already pinioned hold them onwhat you think they believe
about So you've just projectedyour own lies about who you are
(36:52):
onto them.
But when a four is hard as itrests, and they practice
gratitude.
And they start to get someemotional equanimity, emotional
So we're, we're not entertainingthe, the fanciful dreams about
(37:12):
how people may or may not loveus, may or may not receive us or
act according to our to ourdesires we start to accept life
and reality life and reality'sterms, start to experience
emotional sobriety.
Adam (37:32):
That's right.
Jeff (37:33):
And so part of this is just, I mean, simple practices
like, uh, just practicinggratitude.
That rather than allowingyourself fantasize about these
actually put it down on paperand start writing out what is it
that you're actually gratefulHow are people in reality
(37:54):
showing to help that part ofyour heart that needs to hear
that you're okay, that you are
Adam (38:01):
mm hmm, mm hmm, Yeah, look up, look up the, the
neuroscience of gratitude.
And the studies that have beendone, uh, by Cindy stellar on
anxiety and gratitude cannot coexist in the brain.
It's interesting where, whereanxiety and gratitude lives.
And I'm, I'm off my skis here.
So I'm not, I'm not aneuroscientist, but, um, I, I do
(38:24):
know how to read.
Uh, so, so I'm regurgitating,I'm regurgitating what I've
read, but that, that, that,That's They, you know, they,
they exist in the same neurocenters.
And so it's really hard for themto live together.
So that anxiety, that feeling ofsomething's missing, that
gnawing, anxious feeling of I'minadequate and something's
missing.
The gratitude journal and thepractice of gratitude, it's not
(38:47):
reframing.
It's not inauthentic.
It's not the power of positivethinking, even.
It's it's just actually thediscipline of gratitude.
And that alone will combat you,the emotional spiraling falling
the anxiety.
Jeff (39:07):
It's scarcity.
Adam (39:09):
That's right.
Jeff (39:09):
There's not enough.
And all types will deal withthat idea and gratitude reminds
small gifts that have been thatmorsels along the
Adam (39:23):
That's right.
Jeff (39:23):
remind us Well, we've got the five, six and sevens, uh,
left to go here, Adam.
Adam (39:31):
Let's do it.
Let's do it.
Yeah.
So for, for fives, you know, theoverreaction to anxiety is you
may see yourself going deeperinto your mind.
Spending more time, you know,withdrawn, more time learning,
thinking, problem solving, youbecome more detached from
reality.
Um, and, and so that's, that'swhat You might notice.
(39:53):
That would be an overcorrection.
Again, some solitude is, isnecessary and helpful, but if
you're going into full blownisolation and withdrawal, that's
an exaggerated response.
Um, and that would be, uh, thatwould be an anxious reaction.
So a strategy is to, you know,set limits on your isolation.
Which again, it's, it's alwaysgoing to feel like going into
(40:15):
the cave and doing the thingthat feels hard, the upstream
practice.
But if you can, if you canmaintain small, but meaningful.
relationships and socialconnections, even in the midst
of your, your solitude.
Um, you can, you're going to,you're going to help yourself
from falling deeper into the,the emotional withdrawal and the
(40:35):
anxiety.
Um, in addition to that, Ithink, you know, grounding
activities for the five likebreath, work, meditation, those
kinds of things, help themreconnect with the present
moment and get.
It's interesting, get back intheir body.
And so what fives do to surviveis they, they go out of their
body.
We all, we all are going out ofour body.
(40:56):
We all have escapists, you know,strategies to get outside of our
body and that's, and the anxietythat's there, but they, they do
it by going into their heads.
And so the, the breath work,meditation, those kinds of
practices bring you back intoyour body so that you can heal.
What is the anxiety within?
Um, rather than be controlled byit and live reacting to it.
(41:19):
So, Jeff, you have any thoughts?
Jeff (41:21):
got a very strong five part to my heart.
And, For a while now, I've beenwalking I'll walk for most days.
I walk about an hour each ButI've stopped listening to books.
it's not that listening to booksis bad.
(41:42):
It's habit to be in andConstantly learning, but I would
realize that I would bringanxiety to And that would
translate into this kind ofhyper focus or, or over
performing, uh, in our Wantingto bring change or insight into
(42:04):
But whenever I transition tolistening to music and I, um,
one of my favorite ones tolisten to is a band called, I
think it's mute.
M U E.
And we've joked about it byfamily joke.
We laugh at me because of itbecause it's, techno marching
band
Adam (42:25):
Yeah.
You introduced me to this band.
It's incredible.
Jeff (42:28):
and it's it's super fun, but it's very rhythmic and it's
interesting because I'm muchmore attuned So, you know last
October I had a heart incidentand that led to getting multiple
bypass And so I I'm much moreattuned to my breathing heart
rate feeling of my feet hittingthe pavement Even the just the
(42:53):
experience of being outside forthat period Um, I'm much more
attuned to my body.
I, I will say I, I don't walkwith Beth or other people.
Usually I just but I wouldimagine even for the five that
even a couple, the couplewalking with a spouse or with a
(43:16):
family just to get you in tuneout of your head, and into
reality your body with anotherperson.
can be incredibly anxietyreducing connected with other
people and to kind of get out oftrying to take care Now we've
(43:37):
talked a lot about sixesalready, but, uh, you know,
Adam, if we want to share alittle bit more about the six
world, uh, where, please, pleasedo so and fill us in on how it
is that you have mastered youranxiety and live the serene
life.
Adam (43:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm, I'm, uh, I'm better atteaching this than I am doing
it.
And, uh, but so I don't know ifI've mastered but I will say
that there is an overcorrectionresponse to anxiety that I've
noticed in myself and in othersixes.
Um, and it's a complicatedresponse.
Sometimes it, it's, it's thisreaction of blind loyalty, You
(44:15):
know, to a person or ideology.
Uh, sometimes it's, uh, um, Youget paralyzed by overthinking.
That's an overcorrection.
If you find yourselfoverthinking, uh, worst case
scenario, fantasizing, andyou're stuck, um, that's, you
know, you're spun out and stuckin anxiety.
Or this is an interestingresponse, Jeff, but sometimes
(44:36):
sixes just become rebellious.
And that's, that's, that's likethe eight.
You know, type energy.
So, you know, one to one, sixmight respond to their anxiety
by becoming rebellious toward aperson or a system.
Um, and so, you know, that's,that, that, that's how, you
know, the over overreaction orovercorrection of, of a six can
(44:56):
show up when they're anxious.
Now, a strategy for that is, um,focus what's on what's inside
your control rather than what'soutside of your control.
Um, and then developing selftrust and self affirmation.
You know, um, Six is anxietyoften comes from, from this
insecurity or self doubt.
And then just from the fear ofthe unknown, like I don't have
(45:19):
control of, I don't, I don'tknow, and I don't have control
of what I don't And so, um, youknow, to, to, to limit that, to
limit the worst case scenariothinking you can practice,
there's a healthy way to docognitive reframing, you know,
challenging the negativebeliefs, uh, challenging the,
the distorted beliefs, remindingyourself of what is true.
(45:41):
Um, and then find someone thatyou trust that can hold up the
mirror and look at you and say,Hey, you, you can trust
yourself.
Um, one of the most helpfulmoments I ever had in my life
was there's a mutual friend thatwe also have named Rich Plass.
I can literally remember where Iwas standing in Louisville,
Kentucky, when Rich put his handon my chest, he just stuck his
(46:02):
hand out and put his hand on mychest and said, Adam.
You can trust And for a moment,I felt like Superman.
I felt like I could, you know?
Now, unfortunately, I, I haven'tstayed in that same place of
confidence, but I come back tothat moment often, and I remind
myself, okay, I can trustmyself, you know?
(46:24):
Um, so what about you, Jeff, asa six?
What, what's, what's going on inyou as we talk about the six and
their response
Jeff (46:30):
of the things that, because I just had this flywheel
of a mind can just go, go.
I'm ruminating on the samethings.
I will find myself ruminatingand coming up.
I mean, we're, we're creating anew course for people who want
to use the Enneagram inrelationships.
(46:51):
was literally half asleepplanning out how to.
how to structure this particularexperience and I can't, I don't
remember what I was thinking.
I just remember waking up like,what have you been, what do you
do?
Cause I I'm anxious.
I'm scared about And my mind isrunning.
(47:12):
of the things that's reallyhelped are, are actually written
prayers, but the two that cometo mind that I use the most are
one, the and number two is theLord's prayer.
there, There just happens to bea number of people that I'm, I'm
mindful of in our neighborhoodare going through very difficult
(47:37):
even medically for And so I, Idon't know what to pray, but
when I can pray, I pray the, theLord's prayer.
Adam (47:47):
Mm-Hmm.
Jeff (47:50):
because, uh, because of how it's, encompasses so much,
even the things that I might notordinarily be I can eloquently
and try to form this nice andwhat gives me a sense of
boundaries what you were justsaying that I, I'm not
superhuman.
(48:11):
I don't know it I don't know allthe specifics So as I walk by
their house, I simply just And Ido that with a simple childlike
don't know what to pray But Iknow that when Jesus said you
don't know what to pray.
Here's what to pray
Adam (48:32):
That's right.
That's right.
That's right.
It's funny that you talk aboutthe prayers.
I have a, on my desk, I keepthis prayer of surrender and
it's, it's from my friends overat the Eden Project, but it, it
says, I'll just read it.
It's really short, but it says,uh, blessed Trinity, grant me
the grace to open up to yourpresence, receive what you give,
(48:54):
release what you take.
lack what you withhold and dowhat you require.
And I find my, it's, it justputs you in a posture of open
And I find myself that when I'min this posture, it's hard to
stay.
overwhelmed by anxiety.
I'm not saying the anxiety justmagically goes away, but I'm
(49:16):
saying it creates some healthyspace between me and the anxious
part.
Um, so I agree with you, Jeff,on those prayers, uh, can be
super helpful and grounding.
Well, should we talk aboutsevens?
Jeff (49:28):
let's round it off with type sevens
Adam (49:30):
Let's do it.
We save the most fun for last.
Um, yeah, so sevens, you know,the overreaction response to
anxiety is maybe to, to, tobecome a, uh, A bit flighty, you
know, to, to, to just be theinability to be present.
I've what's next.
I've got to stay stimulated, youknow, and I've got to search for
new people, new experiences,have more fun, stay entertained.
(49:55):
You may find yourself lashingout.
Um, you know, maybe evendemanding that, that, you know,
you get the satisfaction and,and the, the fun and freedom
that you desire.
So you don't want any kind ofrestraints on you.
Those are all evidences ofanxiety and kind of
overreactions or overcorrectionsrather to your anxiety.
Um, a more helpful strategy andmore helpful response would be
(50:19):
to, uh, tolerate discomfort,which is really, really tough,
hard to do, uh, and practicemindfulness.
Practice being present.
That's what I mean bymindfulness.
Um, you know, the anxiety onlygets kicked up and, and, and it
throws gas on the anxiety, onthe fire of the anxiety to
constantly seek stimulation.
(50:40):
Cause there's no, it's neverenough.
And so the more you, the morestimulated, stimulation or
experiences you seek, the moreyou want, the more the anxiety
grows.
And so to practice being stilland being present, Again, it's
coming back into your bodyrather than escaping your body.
I know that's the fear.
(51:00):
That's the vulnerability.
That's the cave.
I don't want to go in there.
I don't want, I don't want todeal with what's in but that's
actually the way forward, uh, isto, to tolerate the moments of
discomfort where you return hometo yourself, back inside your
body.
and face what you've and facethe feelings you have about what
(51:23):
you've lived and be honest aboutit.
Um, and so, you know, there'smindfulness apps, there's group
work you can do.
There's, I would find, find acoach, find a therapist, you
know, find a spiritual director,someone that can help you just
learn to be still and do, dothis healthy introspection.
Uh, so Jeff, what are yourthoughts about a seven?
Jeff (51:44):
Yeah, the one thing that I am mindful of in my
relationships with sevens, uh,that oftentimes I, don't feel
that they're present.
They might be frenetic withsomething else that's going on,
but there's, there's like anover functioning, a hyper energy
that they bring don't feel likethey're there with Now, the sad
(52:08):
thing is, is that Sevens createtheir own loneliness they're,
they're not sitting with people.
Now, there are some types ofseven that try to avoid, the
negative experiences orproblematic, disruptive by
(52:30):
leading the team, leading thegroup of friends, the sad thing
is that they're not present tothem
Adam (52:40):
That's right.
Jeff (52:41):
to remember that you and your peers are, they are the
gift.
They are the experience thatwhat you're longing for is to
someone to be, to sit And whatthey're longing for is not your
great fun ideas, just to bepresent for you to be present
with them because you have theopportunity, the strength to
(53:04):
bring light very difficult, uh,circumstances.
it's not this hyper energy to goand and to get things done.
more about being at rest.
having a non anxious lives ofothers and experiencing from
(53:24):
other people.
Adam (53:26):
That's right.
Yeah.
Jeff (53:30):
we hope you found, uh, this particular, these three
episodes helpful and, you know,in light of all the things that
are going on culturally andpersonally, uh, and
relationally, there's a lot oftransition happening and we hope
that you come to anunderstanding of how your
anxiety is particular type andthat you've learned something
about those around you thatyou're in a relationship about
(53:52):
how their anxiety and so we hopeyou found some sense of
direction, you know, give ussome feedback.
We'd love to see your commentsand to help us understand, maybe
even help others to understandhow anxiety and what you've done
about your anxiety, how it showsup in your life.
So be sure to leave us somecomments, uh, and be sure to
like and subscribe, um, so thatyou can get more content as we
(54:13):
were planning for the holidaysand the podcast coming up.
Um, if you do have questions,don't forget, you will always
reach out to us at info at yourenneagram coach.
com.
We'd be happy answer yourquestions there.
Um, and so, uh, Adam, thanksagain for hanging out with me
and talking about this.
Uh, and I really do hope thatpeople have been encouraged and
(54:34):
have a little bit of directionon how to deal with, uh, their
own anxiety in a particularlyanxious season of
Adam (54:41):
it's been a pleasure.
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