Episode 254: The Greatest Gift You Can Give Your Kids

We are so happy to have Heather (4) and Bruce (3) MacFadyen on the show today. Heather is a well-known parenting mentor in the online space through her podcast, Don’t Mom Alone.

It’s really fun to hear today how their Enneagram types influence their parenting styles. 

Mentioned in this episode:

Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson

Don’t Mom Alone episode: Bruce Labels His Feelings

Heather's Book: Don’t Mom Alone

We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com. 

FREE Enneagram resources here: https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/podcastresources 

Find an Enneagram Coach - https://myenneagramcoach.com/ 

Become an Enneagram Coach Course - https://www.yourenneagramcoach.com/bec 

#Enneagram #PersonalityTypes #EnneagramCoach

Episode Transcript

Beth (00:00):
Well, hey everyone, I'm Beth McCord, and this is your
Enneagram Coach, the podcast.
today we're excited to haveHeather and Bruce McFadden on
our show to talk about what it'slike to parent from their
Enneagram types.

Jeff (00:11):
So Heather is an Enneagram 4 and the host of a very popular
podcast, Don't Mom Alone.
She's a speaker and now she'sadding to all of that and being
an author to all the list ofthings that she does.
Her husband, Bruce, is a three,and he's here as well to let us
coach them through what it'slike to parent from the
perspective of a type four and atype three, uh, relationship.

(00:35):
So not only are we just applyingan enneagram to marriage, but
now what it looks like with thekids.
It's even

Beth (00:40):
more complected when we add the kids to it.
Oh man, it's going to get reallyfun.

Jeff (00:44):
It's really super fun here, but, uh, welcome to the
show McFadden's we're so gladyou're with us.

Beth (00:50):
Thank you for having us.

Jeff (00:51):
Thank you.

Beth (00:52):
All right.
Well, let's dive right in.
And why don't you guys tell us alittle bit about yourselves, you
know, who you are, what you do.
I know Jeff said a little bit,but let's dive a little bit
further.
And then how many kids you haveand what are their ages?

Heather (01:05):
Well, thank you for reminding me that now I get to
say author, my resume just grewa little bit.
That's super fun.
My wing three is very excited.

Jeff (01:14):
Do you have a name for your three wing?
We've actually named all of ourparts.
She's a

Heather (01:19):
showgirl.
She's quite a showgirl.
Lucy, Audrey, one of those,yeah, she's a showgirl.
Oh yeah, I totally feel that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we live in Dallas, Texas, andum, I am a professional.
Licensed speech, speech, I can'teven say it, speech language
pathologist, uh, and did thatfor years before podcasting.

(01:40):
And then, uh, we have four boysthat are ages nine to 16.
Wow.

Jeff (01:46):
Four boys.
Four

Heather (01:47):
boys.
That's amazing.

Jeff (01:49):
And, and what's, uh, what's that been like for you
raising four boys?

Heather (01:54):
It's so easy.
Everyone should do it.
It's like a breeze, especiallyif you squeeze them in six
years.
It's so easy.
Right.
Exactly.
No, it's been the most refiningbloodbath work on my inner self
that I've ever had in all my 44years.
We have

Beth (02:10):
a good friend who's raising three girls and they're
ages nine, six, and five.
And I think he would say prettymuch the same thing, but from
the other side.
That's right.
Yeah.

Jeff (02:20):
So Bruce, tell us a little bit about you.

Bruce (02:23):
I am in the investment business and just do my best to
be a calm father.
I think that is the one thingthat I've learned is rarely does
more intensity help a situation.
So as a three.
Want to achieve and I learned inmany ways the best way to
achieve was actually to chillout

Jeff (02:46):
Wow, yeah, we heard a great line the other day that It
was a pastor who's a three andhis staff tell him take the cape
off Just, uh, to like, Hey,relax, we're, everything's fine.
Like we, we don't need to pushany harder.

Beth (03:02):
Like, like we value you.
Your, your worth is so high inour, you know, in our eyes.
You don't have to be thesuperhero.

Jeff (03:10):
Have your boys ever said, dad, just chill out.

Bruce (03:15):
I think

Heather (03:16):
they

Bruce (03:21):
would, they would have when, when I was more intense
and at all, they were younger,but I think if I was still the
way that I was.
Um, I, I would have earned thata lot.

Heather (03:31):
And I think now it's less about the superhero.
It's less about, it's, it's moretask oriented.

Jeff (03:37):
Sure.

Heather (03:38):
Yeah.
Forward momentum.
Yep.
Yeah.
Energy.

Beth (03:41):
Yeah.
Okay.
So how did you guys discover theEnneagram?

Heather (03:46):
Oh my goodness.
That's a really good question.
I don't even know.

Bruce (03:50):
Well, I'll start by saying I grew up with a mom that
was obsessed with industrialpsychology.
So.

Jeff (03:56):
Okay.

Bruce (03:58):
For being a, uh, a young kid.
I mean, honestly, like 10 yearsold, I was taking assessments.
All of us, me, I have threesisters and we did something
called the Berkman, um, uh,which is great.
Very, very, it's like going PhDon yourself.
Um, and so obviously everybodygets exposed to Myers Briggs.
Um, and, um, and I would sayEnneagram has probably been more

(04:20):
over the last.
Seven, eight years, um, that Istarted to get more familiar
with it.

Heather (04:25):
Yeah, I really have no clue where the first time I
heard about it, but it justfeels like it's been a part of
conversations and learning andreading.

Jeff (04:37):
Do you remember finding out that, uh, that you, finding
out your numbers and discoveringhow the NEA Yeah, what was that
process like?

Bruce (04:45):
I did it as a part of a corporate retreat.
The very first time, um, infact, it's funny that you
mentioned that because I hadtaken it and I'm a three wing
two and studied that and I waslike, okay, that kind of makes
sense.
And Heather.
You, you probably were familiarwith it, but one time he came
back and you had been at somesort of Enneagram event and you
came back and you said, I knowwhat you are.

(05:05):
You're a seven.
I said, I'm not.
I'm actually a three wing too.

Heather (05:09):
And it took me a really long time.
So I was like, no, you really,you're so fun.
So engaging, you're alwaysgoing, going, going, and that to
me was a really, you know, oneof my first experiences of you
don't type other people.
Right?
Because their behavior and whythey're doing it is so vastly
different.
People don't believe that I'm afour because I'm the self, uh,

(05:32):
preservation

Beth (05:33):
four.
Yes, the counter type, uh

Heather (05:34):
huh.
Yeah.
What would they typically thinkyou?
They think I'm a six or a seven.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's very common.
In that region.
Yeah.
So.
Fascinating.
Yeah.
And if I think back to mychildhood, oh my goodness, it's
very helpful to have thelanguage around four.
I was told by, I have oldersiblings, um, I was kind of like
the second set of kids and theolder siblings would.

(05:58):
Tell stories of how I cried fora year, you know, like
everything was so over the topand I just very imaginative and
Spent a lot of time incemeteries And I don't meet a
lot of people that they talkabout that, me and my friend, I
was homeschooled.
And we would go to cemeteriesand write down the names of

(06:18):
people and their dates andcreate stories off of what we
found on the headstones and Idon't think a lot of people did
that for fun.
That's not a

Bruce (06:26):
four thing?

Heather (06:27):
No, that is.
That's what I'm saying.
It's a weird thing that I didn'ttell people because it's so odd,
but then when I found out aboutfours, I was like, Oh, that
makes sense.
It didn't bother me.
Yeah, being in, I wasn'toverwhelmed by the concept of a
cemetery, right?
I was more marveling at theconnections and yes, the people
and I, you know, even when you'dfind like several Yes headstones

(06:51):
next to each other likeconnecting the dots.
Oh, they died when they were 27and she anyway

Jeff (06:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's fascinating.
I don't know if I've shared thatbefore,

Heather (07:00):
guys.
I don't know.
It's the first

Beth (07:02):
time.
You still love me?
That's great.
Yes.

Jeff (07:05):
That's right.
I think that's so intriguing.
So Bruce, you're next.
Uh, any, uh, dark hobbies youhad as a kid that you've never
told anyone?

Heather (07:14):
I like your story.
I've never done that.
I like your story, though, ofhow you used to play with Hot
Wheels cars.
Mm.
And, you know, you would Youwanted them to crash.
So you would bang one up andyou'd throw it in there to look
like it crashed.
I don't know if that goes with,well, if I had

Bruce (07:29):
five matching ones, I would get a hammer on one.
And then when I have like caraccidents, I'd throw out the
good one and put in the bad one,but I don't know if that's a
three thing.

Heather (07:36):
I don't know.
I just thought it was very fun.
That was a fun story.

Jeff (07:39):
Now, I'm curious, um, so how long have you been married?
21 years.
21 years.
And 22 years.
You know That

Heather (07:50):
COVID thing.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.
The whole year is 2020 didn'texist.
I don't Yeah,

Jeff (07:55):
we're off now.
Um, I'm curious.
Do you Now, through the lens ofthe Enneagram, what do you think
it was that attracted you to oneanother, but through the lens of
your Enneagram types?

Bruce (08:09):
That's a good question.
I've actually had not thought ofthat before.
I

Heather (08:12):
think, if I think about stances, and then I think about
attachment theory,

Jeff (08:17):
there's an

Heather (08:17):
element to the fact that he is in the aggressive
stance, and then he is a healthythree.
His parents did a really goodjob.
He's very securely attached.
That my withdrawn stance, um, orI'm Anxiously attached.
I think that is so I needed I'mattracted to that because there

(08:37):
was such confidence and he spokeso highly about other people was
so positive that I hadn'texperienced that.
And so I was really drawn tothat security.
Yeah, kind of knew what he wasdoing, knew who he was.
Yep.
And knew where we were going.
Yeah, like,

Jeff (08:53):
yes, that

Heather (08:53):
was absolutely What did you like about me?
So

Bruce (08:58):
I I guess in my head I'm trying to like tie it to any
gram, but I'm not gonna try I'mgonna leave that to you guys.
Yes But I think the one of thethings that drew me to Heather
were her mannerisms Like justthe quirkiness and maybe that is
a fourth thing.
I don't know but like Just Idon't know just the way that she

(09:22):
would respond to things nonverbally like for whatever
reason like I Was physicallyattracted to her mannerisms like
kind of who she is my oddityWhich is

Beth (09:35):
so funny Right as you were saying that she's like doing
this little dance in her chair,you know Yeah, no one else can
see it but us and I'm like, oh,there it is

Jeff (09:45):
She's super quirky and I love it.
Was it was it was itplayfulness?
Was it?
What did it do for you in Psy?
I mean, aside from just beingattractive, was it, was it
comforting to you?
Was it

Beth (09:57):
relaxing?
It made me

Bruce (09:58):
smile.

Beth (10:00):
Uh

Bruce (10:00):
huh.
Yeah.
It made me smile, like it wasjust very, it was, um, it drew
me towards her, um, and it justmade me enjoy being with her.

Beth (10:10):
That's great.

Jeff (10:11):
You know, it's interesting.
So as many of our listenersknow, we've made 45 different
marriage courses, one for eachcouple time.
And as we were building andrecording and research, all of
it.
And even our team, like we wouldget to certain couple types and
like, Oh man, I don't, I don'tthink this could ever work.

(10:32):
And then you get, then we wouldremind ourselves like, Oh no,
that's their couple type.
We're friends with them.
They've got a great marriage.
And you know, many might thinkthat the three, four
combination, like that, thatwould be crazy.
Fours want to express themselvesand express emotion and threes
want to perform.
Like can set aside andcompartmentalize emotion so that

(10:53):
they can get stuff done and keepmoving forward like that must be
a nightmare But there you areyou actually found something
that was really comforting tothe both of you that Actually
could help you to become thepeople God wanted you to become
a fuller person.
Yeah

Heather (11:08):
That makes you love me more when he's saying that
because it's positive, thank youSo let's talk about the dark
side I didn't like that.
She hung out in cemeteries

Beth (11:26):
Right, right that would have changed the game

Jeff (11:29):
Well, not as cute.
So, this particular podcast,though, we're going to be
talking about parenting and howthe Enneagram helps to give
language to, uh, why we think,feel, and behave as it relates
to parenting.
And so, um, What is this

Beth (11:45):
not?

Jeff (11:46):
This is not Typing your kids

Beth (11:49):
or how to raise a one, a type one child or a type two
trap.
Like that's not what we're herefor.
We're here to really talk aboutwhat is it like for us to parent
through our type?
You know, God created us to beour type, you know, and, and
each of our types, when we're atour healthiest and aligned with
the truth of the gospel, wereflect him and his glory, but.

(12:11):
When we're misaligned or out ofalignment, our parenting is also
going to go in that direction,and it wreaks havoc within
ourselves and in all of ourrelationships.
You know,

Jeff (12:19):
uh, uh, Kurt Thompson, uh, he's written a number of books,
um, Anatomy of the Soul, Soul ofShame.
But one of the, I rememberseeing a YouTube video and he's
talking about attachment in thebrain.
But one of the things he said inpassing was, is that for
parents, one of the greatestgifts that you can give to your
kids is to understand your ownstory.

(12:40):
Because if you don't, you'regoing to reenact and coach your
children into that story.
And, by God's grace, they'regonna push back on that.
They're gonna resist it.
Uh, and you're going to miss theopportunity to find healing and
to help them to become thepeople God intends for them to
be, to be able to differentiatefrom you.

(13:00):
And so the Enneagram helps togive language to all those
things.

Beth (13:03):
Yeah.
And so we've got severalquestions for you guys, but
before we dive into thequestions, I just want for
everyone that's listening to beaware of the type three and the
type four.
So I'm going to just kind oftalk about the core motivations
of both types cause that willset the stage.
So for the type three, they'rethe admirable achievers and they
fear being a failure, worthless,inefficient, exposed, um, not

(13:27):
having high regard in the eyesof others and they desire to be
successful, to be admired.
To, uh, be worthwhile to others,to be valuable, um, and to have
high status and high regards inthe eyes of others.
But they struggle with the coreweakness of deceit.
Now deceit here means that theydeceive themselves into
believing that they're only theimage they present to others.

(13:50):
And so they feel like they haveto embellish a certain persona.
Whichever person they're aroundor whatever culture they're
around put on a polished personaso that others will see it and
admire them.
So they think they're as good astheir last success or their last
glittering image.
So they're constantly strivingfor that.
But what they long to hear,their core longing, is you are

(14:13):
love for simply being you.
You don't have to achieve yourscene.
And so, that's the type three.
So the type four is theintrospective individualist, and
they fear being mundane, plain,ordinary.
Uh, their emotions cut off.
They can't express theiremotions or go down deep.
Um, but they desire to expressthemselves, to know themselves

(14:36):
fully, to be their mostauthentic self, to be original.
Now, they struggle with the coreweakness of envy and envy here
means that they feel thatthere's something tragically
flawed or missing inside them.
And that when they look around,others possess a quality that
they feel like they're lacking.
And so, In order to, in a sense,win other people's approval and

(14:58):
love and affection and to beseen and understood, they put on
or they pull out withinthemselves this unique part of
themselves, this very specialpart for others to see and love.
What they long to hear is youare seen and loved for exactly
who you are, special and unique.
Now in just saying those two, dothose resonate with you guys?

(15:20):
And if so, how?

Bruce (15:22):
I can say that's spot on for me.
The, the good and the bad,right?
Right.
Sure.
We'll talk about that.
I

Heather (15:29):
was, I was reading that out to him from what you all
sent us.
And my son was listening in andthey were all tuning in when I
got positive.
And then the second it wentnegative, they both shut it up.
He goes, why are you saying thatabout dad?
Don't say that about dad.
I was like, I'm not, I'm justreading.

Jeff (15:48):
That's fascinating.
I accept

Heather (15:51):
it.
He accepts it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that you've ownedthat.
Yeah.
Much better.
Yeah.

Jeff (15:57):
Well, the first question I wanted to ask, just in general,
where do you feel like you shinein your parenting style?

Heather (16:08):
I mean, I feel.
I feel.
Do you, I'm curious if the hearttriad starts sentences with I
feel and the other ones startwith I think.
It's very common.
It is

Jeff (16:18):
common, and it's also vernacular, right?
I mean, sometimes we havethoughts that we explain as
feelings, so it's, it's a littlebit of

Heather (16:24):
I never ever say I think.

Beth (16:27):
I've had that same curious thought as well, and I've kind
of paid attention, but then it'sreally weird when it gets to us,
those of us that are in the gutcenter, because it's not a
thought.
It's not a feeling.
Yeah, it's like this other, butwe have, I mean the English
language really only allows forthinking and feeling.
I mean occasionally people say,why have this gut feeling?

(16:48):
But most people don't.
I don't know how to accept orreceive that information.
It's like, well, that soundskind of sketchy, you know, you
don't even know what you'retalking about.
So all that to be said, I thinkto say all that to say, I think
you're onto something, butbecause of the English language,
I don't think we can quite putit the way it should be.
But anyway,

Heather (17:08):
so yeah, you feel, well, yeah, I, I think, I think,
I feel that it is.
In the realm of feelings with myboys, I definitely was okay
sitting with them.
It just happened on the drivehome.
A lot of tears coming out of oneof my kids and just, um, not

(17:28):
fixing it, but saying, I'm sadwith you.
That sounds really hard.
You have a lot of, you know,sounds like you're really sad.
And I, that seems like they'reable to express their emotions
about things.
Um, I think that's the positiveside.
Yes.

(17:48):
Because

Beth (17:48):
I have a quick question.
When he's crying, expressinghimself, and you're saying those
amazing things that so many ofus wish everyone else would say
when we're sad, you know,instead of just trying to fix us
and make us feel better, withinmyself as a nine who's more in
the optimistic spectrum and wantpeople to be happy, I might say
that, but really internally I'mcalculating to when can I make

(18:10):
this person feel better?
So I'm just curious from a typefour mom, is that easy to do
what you just said?
And is it natural?
And do you feel the inclinationto make them happy?
Or from a force perspective, areyou like, is it just almost like
breathing air that you can sitthere in those emotions?

Heather (18:31):
I think I'm okay with a lot of the fluctuations.
I think in that particularmoment, I did start to feel some
anger towards what caused him tobe sad and wanted to kind of.
I had to watch myself and bevery careful that I didn't say
words that made him the victim.
My natural inclination was he'sthe victim here.

(18:54):
I need to that's not okay andkind of take on.
If I was in that situation, howvictimized I would feel instead
of just sitting in the feelingand let it be what it is and not
add layers to what it is.
Sure.
That was hard for me to not, tonot, to really just let him have

(19:16):
his story with it.

Beth (19:18):
But it sounds like it's really easy for you to say what
you said, like, Oh my gosh,that's so sad.
That must be hard and kind ofjust sit there in it.
Is that

Heather (19:26):
true?

Beth (19:26):
That's true.

Heather (19:27):
That's taken a little bit more training.
We've done a lot of 12 step andprocessing groups.
Okay, good To be trained in inthose words.
Yeah, so that they're accessibleWhen I want to just be like I
can't believe they did that andI you know, yes calling the mom
of the kid Yes going on mamabear, but

Bruce (19:47):
yeah, I think everything she does really good is really
well is Kind of stopping andenjoying the moment and the
experience.
And, um, you know, everybody'shalf birthday is get celebrated
except for mine.
Right.
Mine's right about aroundThanksgiving.
So everybody forgets.
Remember until my annual, myannual birthday.

(20:09):
But I think she does a reallygreat job of, of, uh, focusing
on an experience.
Like.
And just making sure that wedon't, we stop and smell the
roses.

Jeff (20:19):
Yes.
And Bruce, where do you shine?

Bruce (20:22):
Um, positivity.
Uh huh.

Jeff (20:25):
Yeah.

Bruce (20:26):
Yeah.
I, um, yeah, I, I think I, I seethe positive sign usually, um,
when I don't, it's really bad.
When I can't find it, it's, it'sreally, really ugly, but, um,
yeah, I think that's, yeah.

Jeff (20:42):
How do you think you would have handled a similar situation
as what Heather faced today inthe car?

Bruce (20:50):
That is a good question.
Um, I don't think they cry asfreely with me, not because I'm
dumb approved, but I, it's justprobably less familiar.
I don't know that I ask thequestions necessarily, too, that
lead to the tears.
And when it probably starts, Iprobably, you know, reframe and
take them a different direction.
Yeah.
You

Heather (21:10):
would typically make a joke.
Or if you're in their presenceand you're not driving a car,
you would Yeah.

Bruce (21:21):
I don't, I don't think just soaking in their emotions,
you know, they would've knownwhat to do with that with me,
because I've probably not beenable to be that for them.

Jeff (21:32):
I'm just curious, do you cry in front of your kids?
Like have the boys seen you crybefore?

Bruce (21:38):
I guess not.
Cause they make comments aboutthat.
I don't really cry that much.

Heather (21:44):
Well, and just I can remember two times.
Uh huh.
Yeah.

Jeff (21:48):
That's great.
You actually named it twice.
Wow.

Beth (21:52):
Well, I know two times.
I mean, just so that othersunderstand, like for threes,
they grew up with this kind ofrecord player message in their
mind that would say somethingsimilar to, you know, you
shouldn't have your own feelingsand your own identity.
Therefore you need to push yourfeelings and your true identity
to the side and become whateveris the most successful.

(22:13):
image or accomplishment, youknow, whatever that is for.
Your family, your school, yourwhatever, whatever it is, that's
what you need to become.
And so threes have become veryskilled at pushing aside those
feelings, um, and stayingproductive and positive and, um,
yeah, and excelling.
Does that sound true for you,Bruce?

Bruce (22:34):
For sure.

Beth (22:35):
We, yeah, go

Bruce (22:36):
ahead.
Well, I was, I, we're probablygoing the same place with this,
but our small group about fouryears ago or so, we started
doing the feelings card

Heather (22:42):
with our 12 step.
Yeah.
Um,

Bruce (22:45):
and that was.

Heather (22:46):
We did an episode on it.
If you go to don't mom alone.
com and you search Bruce labels,his feelings.
I love it.
If you're a three and you needhelp or a male three, he talks
about that experience.
Well, yeah,

Bruce (22:59):
cause I mean, it, it was for maybe for three, I don't
know if this is a three thing ora male thing or what, but.
For, for me, it was definitely,I did not have a word or words
for how I was feeling.

Beth (23:10):
Yes.

Bruce (23:11):
And I still struggle with that.
Heather last weekend, she'slike, something's bothering.
I'm like, no, no, I'm fine.
And it took me two days to beable to figure out what she was
saying.
And then I told her, she's like,yeah, I've been married with you
long enough to where I know whenyou're sitting on something, but
I literally don't.

Heather (23:30):
Yeah,

Bruce (23:31):
and

Heather (23:31):
I think what you liked about the feelings card and you
say this in the episode is thaton the one we have It has the
eight primary and then it haslike some what they typically
can break down into but then ithas what your body does

Bruce (23:41):
Physical manifestation and so like one of them was like
in your stomach or your neckLike you like where you
literally have a negative and Iand I I will get like a tense
Like shoulders or neck orstomach.
And when I literally looked atthose and I started at the
physical manifestation and wentto the other side, I saw fear
and shame.
I can't remember which was whichand I thought, so back in, I was

(24:04):
like, let me think about that.
Let me think about those timeswhere those were like real
problems.
And I was like.
Yeah, I was like, that's exactlywhat it was.
As

Jeff (24:12):
you're literally right now holding on to your neck.
Yeah, well, I am.

Bruce (24:17):
My neck is fine.
It's been a time.
But, but, but no, but it was, itwas really, it was helpful to
kind of in many ways reverseengineer that and look at the
physical manifestation in orderto feel that this wasn't just
some fuzzy thing, but this wasactually, there was a physical
manifestations to feelings.
Yeah.
And that's definitely not mynature to understand that.

Heather (24:39):
Yeah, you've done really good work.
You've done really good work.
I'm very

Jeff (24:42):
proud of you.
So the next question is, wheredo you feel like that you
struggle the most as a parent

Heather (24:57):
There was always some method or some, if I'd had
Instagram back then.
Oh my gosh.
I say the same thing.
Oh, that says it a lot.
I could not have done it.
Heather, Heather.

Jeff (25:09):
We were so baby wise.
Like you have, we killed babywise.

Beth (25:14):
See our kids are 21 and 23.
So this is back in the day.
I

Heather (25:17):
had the baby wise and then the baby whisperer and
there was one other one and I'mlooking at them and they're
saying opposite things and I'mthinking, oh no.
There's not a formula, shoot,but I really, I would come to
him and I'm like, okay, wherewe're making a mistake is we
need to X, Y, and Z, and I wouldcome in with a new idea all the

(25:37):
time.
And so everyone says, in orderto be a good parent, you just
need to be consistent.
Oh my goodness, we, we wereconsistent at being
inconsistent.
There you go.
I was consistent

Jeff (25:50):
in being anxious, so hope that helped you kids.
Me too.
Nate and Libby, it's all yoursnow.

Heather (25:54):
Me too.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I think that that waswhere it's a challenge of
feeling like I'm just missingone little thing.
Um, I think.
Learning about where you go inhealth and stress was also
helpful that I needed to kind ofhave a something else in
motherhood.
So that I didn't just give ofmyself completely and lose

(26:17):
myself in motherhood.

Beth (26:19):
Well, what's interesting is a lot of Enneagram books and
things that people listen to,they don't kind of take it this
next step that I'm going to talkabout.
I learned it first from RussHudson and some of the work he
was doing.
presenting is that and what wecall it at your Enneagram coach
is the blind spot.
So the same line that you go ingrowth at home you can actually

(26:42):
access some of the less healthyattributes um, of that same
type.
So for you normally for the fourgoing to the one Can look, you
know, amazing.
And so many great aspects of theone is pulling that four into
this really great trajectory ofgrowth.
But at home, the one canactually come out in some
negative ways.
Can you see how that mighthappen at home?

Heather (27:05):
Yes.
So my, I was telling y'allbefore we started recording, my
mom, I think is a one.
And so I have that inner voice.
And then I also definitely amvery critical of myself.
I mean, it's in my book whereBruce says.
Does any mom think she's doing agood job because I would always
do the whole diatribe at the endof the day of all the ways I

(27:25):
messed up and wouldn't givemyself a break and he was like,
I think because you care somuch, you're doing a great job.
Yes.
Yeah.
The intention.
I never, I never counted theintention.
I never.
Looked at all the things I'ddone in that day as wins.
I just felt like there's a way Icould have done it better and I
was missing it.

Beth (27:46):
Well, and if you think about, so you got the four that
struggles with the envy.
So, and I think all moms aregoing to struggle with this.
Like, like you said, looking atPinterest or Instagram or blog,
mommy blogs, etc.
Oh, I'm not doing it right.
So, you know, we all kind ofstruggle with that.
But, but, but, you know, forlike.
Um, at your core, the coreweakness is envy and all you're
seeing is this barrage ofinformation of how you're

(28:08):
missing it.
You're missing something like,Oh, you are tragically flawed.
You know, that's what themessages are saying.
And then in the home, like I'msaying, the blind spot, you also
pulling some of the less healthyaspects of one.
So that inner critic is jumpingon all the things that you made
a mistake in that all the blogsor the Instagram posts are

(28:30):
saying you didn't do it right.
And so you can.
I mean, like for me, my heartgoes out to you, like, Oh my
gosh, I wish I could just like,you know, hug you as that
younger mom.
Like I see you and I see howmuch you're struggling and the
shame that must well up with,you know, the, the noise from
the outside, but also theheaviness on the inside.

(28:51):
Is that kind of how it felt?

Heather (28:52):
Yes.
Yeah.
And I think what I see as aripple effect of that is.
My voice being more critical ofthemselves or critical of each
other.
Um, when we got some.
Parent coaching from connectedfamilies.
They said, okay, how about youguys at dinner?
Talk about what went?
Well And how about if someonemakes a mistake you follow the

(29:16):
scripture that grace is biggerthan whatever You know happened
like give each other that orhave a do over like something
goes wrong and do a do overbecause there was such a
Especially after my mom livedwith us for a year, there was
just a lot of critical spirit inour home that felt, and still

(29:36):
can a lot of times come up whenwe're not all in good places.
And that's why his positivity isso helpful.
Yes.
That this tone of, it's not okayto make any mistakes.

Jeff (29:46):
Yeah.
Well, Bruce, what about you?
Where is it that you feel likeyou struggle as a parent or what
do you wish you could improve?

Bruce (29:58):
Thank you for that.
You know, it's, um, I have toturn off my, I don't know if I'm
turning off my three, but I'mturning off the, the achiever,
the need to kind of get thingsdone, I have to turn that off.
I can't like just slow it down.
It has to be on or off.
So for instance, I do thelaundry.

Jeff (30:16):
Um,

Bruce (30:18):
Well, I do it for myself and the boys.
Heather does her own laundry.
She's the one that.
I have special detergent, Iguess.
But, but like we all know, likelaundry is not the problem.
It's, it's the hard part.
It's the folding, right?
So I, every, you know, Saturdaymorning I go and I get all the
laundry and I Who knows what'sgoing to happen to him?
It's very exciting because itwas, it was the first time I saw

(30:41):
the whole thing unfolded, right?
And I was just sitting therethinking, who's next?
I think it's, it's a really bigreason to enjoy it.
And I think that's a, that's a,it's a, that's a really big
reason.
It's like, that's a big reasonto get your hands on it, because
it's like, the, the good news, Imean, you know, it's it's, you

(31:02):
Can wear the boys out andheather

Heather (31:05):
a lot like a lot of reminders You keep us on task,
but I feel bad that that becomesyour job because it's not very
connected to be The boss.
Sure.
You know, people aren't friendswith the boss.
So, I mean, he's even, he's evenlike, really efficiently, dinner

(31:27):
time, like he, everyone has arole, goals and roles, that was
a thing you created.
Everyone would sit down and havetheir goals for the quarter, and
then their roles that theyplayed in the house, and so,
which part of dinner were youresponsible for, which part of
the house were you responsiblefor.
Yes.
Which is helpful'cause Iwouldn't innately think of that

(31:48):
structure.
I wouldn't do that.
And I need it.

Jeff (31:52):
Yeah.

Heather (31:52):
Um, to function well, but I, I, I push against it.
Yeah.

Beth (31:56):
Well, here's the, th the funny thing.
So as a nine at the home,there'll be more three like
things that come out.
That's my blind spot, man.
I have created so many amazingchore charts.
Uh.
Uh, McCord, um, Castle Zones,like we're gonna like, we're
setting this all up.
Okay, you're doing this, you'redoing this, and then every week

(32:17):
we'll switch, it's gonna begreat.
And then we even like, I thinkwhen our kids were like 10, was
like, okay, so again, they'relike 23 and 20.
Um, so.
Like on, uh, the computer, thischore thing finally came out and
like they could win all thesekind of cool things if they put
in their chores and I thoughtwe're going to kill it.
Finally, never worked because Iwon't continue the process.

(32:41):
It was a nine, you know, it'slike I set it up like a great
three would, but I don't havegreat follow through.
And so it always, you don't

Heather (32:48):
want to cause the conflict because they're all
like say.

Beth (32:50):
They're so excited about first, like, Oh, this is going
to be amazing.
We're going to earn points andlike toys and all this stuff.
And then like a week later, noone cares.
And I'm like, I don't want tofight about this.
I don't really want to push.
So Bruce, you probably arekilling it and doing such a
great job by having all thezones and, and doing such a
great job.
He's a good executor.
Yes, exactly.

(33:11):
Not

Heather (33:11):
executor, like an executionist.
Not that.
Right, right.
I haven't figured out that.
No, no, that's not even, you'reall close

Jeff (33:18):
to what I'm saying.
That would be a character defectin your parenting.
Yes.
Clearly.
Deceit would

Beth (33:23):
be strong in that situation.
Yes.
Well,

Jeff (33:26):
that does speak to something, because, uh, as it
relates to goals and roles, um,one of the questions that we ask
is, when your kids are 30,Twenties, it's pretty bumpy,
they're trying to find out whothey are separate from parents,
but when they're 30, uh, Bruce,you can start with you, who, who

(33:47):
do you hope or what do you hopeyour kids, your boys will be
whenever they're 30?

Beth (33:52):
Yeah, well, like what are their virtues?
And

Jeff (33:54):
maybe how the, the goals and roles are connected to that,
like the kind of person they arewhen they get older.

Bruce (34:02):
Um, I want them to really know who they are and how
they're gifted.
And I think more than else, Iwant them to be, um, my hope for
them would be that they're.
They're living their

Jeff (34:16):
giftedness.

Bruce (34:16):
Um, I don't know if that's your exact question, but
I think it really starts fromthat.
And, and, and we, we talk aboutthat a lot, you know, and, you
know, each of our boys havedifferent areas of giftedness
and, you know, um, really tryingto encourage them in that.
And I think really that's,that's really where, um, I think
I, I start because I feel likeif they're have a good sense of

(34:40):
who they are and they're, andthey're going after those
passions, then I think they'regoing to.
have a more healthy lifestyle,they're more likely to have a
better spiritual life, a betterfamily life, and a better
professional life.

Jeff (34:52):
And, and what do you think, how would you feel if
that didn't happen?

Bruce (35:00):
Yeah, I mean, well, as a three, I would, I would feel
that I failed.

Jeff (35:06):
Yes.
Now if, and I'm assuming thereare times that the boys don't
come through.
And do you often time take theresponsibility or feel the
responsibility whenever theymake mistakes?

Bruce (35:24):
I don't know.
Do you think I do?

Heather (35:26):
One of them got on the watch list for grades.
Did you take on responsibilityfor that?

Jeff (35:31):
This was about to get really dark whenever you said
put them on the watch list likewhat?
That term means so much now

Heather (35:38):
That is a very strong word for a middle school.
Yes.
Yes, it is It's one of our

Bruce (35:44):
kids who normally does really good and really well
Yeah, really well in school andhe kind of took the pedal the
foot off the pedal and to behonest He kind of does it him
like he does well in school kindof without a lot of

Jeff (35:53):
effort.

Bruce (35:54):
Effort and, and with a lot of effort from us either.
And then all of a sudden we getthis notification that he was
struggling at school.

Heather (36:00):
It's in one subject.
I don't feel like we

Bruce (36:02):
overreacted to that.
I was just trying to find anexample

Heather (36:04):
where you might feel like you needed to, like, own
that or.
I

Bruce (36:09):
think, I really try to not burden them with that, maybe
that expectation of, you know,my expectation of them.

Heather (36:19):
Or like with, with Quade and, we have a high
schooler, right?
So there's a little bit of.

Jeff (36:25):
Mm hmm.

Heather (36:26):
You know the next big thing for him is getting into
college.
Yeah, so do you feel ownershipover his Journey right now to
getting into college.

Bruce (36:34):
I think I Feel that more than i'm communicating that yeah

Jeff (36:40):
Yeah,

Bruce (36:40):
like I I recognize that adding like I think about like
what would be helpful What whatwould it would not have been
helpful?
As far as an approach to me, ifI was getting that back when I
was their age.
And so that tends to be a filterfor me.

Jeff (36:55):
Yeah.

Bruce (36:55):
Um, and I think, frankly, I think the more that's pushed
on me, as I think back from aparent, I think the less I would
be more likely to benefit fromthat wisdom.
I feel like I'd, I'd benefitmore from it if, if I kind of
had to learn some of that.
So I think we, I think sometimeswhat I feel I want to say and

(37:17):
what I actually say will tend tobe.
Um, abridged,

Beth (37:21):
a

Bruce (37:22):
more, a more constructive vision casting rather than this,
this, this, and this are wrong.

Beth (37:29):
Sure.
Yeah.

Jeff (37:31):
So Heather, what about you?
The boys are 30.

Heather (37:35):
Yeah.
Well, it's funny that he, yeah,he, it's interesting to hear the
different answers.
Um, cause in my head I was like,well, if I'm thinking real
ideal, I do hope that they are.
And very happy marriages and,um, loving parents and, uh, you

(37:55):
know, I do want them to be incommunity and serving people
well at whatever area that is intheir life, you know.
their assignments and so I dothink of like the whole and I'm
thinking, I'm realizing a lot ofit is connectedness to other
people and to where they are so.

(38:17):
Yeah,

Jeff (38:18):
yeah.
And what would it mean to you asa mom and to your four heart if
they weren't connected to peoplein their thirties?
That they had difficulty inmarriage or maybe having babies
and occupation, they haven'tfound clarity on what they want
to do.

Beth (38:39):
I'm very sad.
I could, I could literally, Icould see your countenance
change.
That would be so hard to watch.
I think this is like such agreat, like, if we can just
pause for a second for theaudience to recognize the fours,
their emotions.
are so vast and deep and real,and their minds can really take

(39:05):
them to another place and thenthey feel that other place.
So like I could literally, asJeff was saying it, watch you
imagine this path as if yourkids are there and how you, and
like you literally embodied it.
And so that is such a gift of afour to be able to do that
because it allows you to also bewith people in their sorrow.

(39:26):
and to feel their feelings.
So I just kind of wanted peoplein the audience to hear the
specialness of that ability.
Even though I know it doesn'tnecessarily always feel, you
know, special.
Because here you're envisioning,you know, a trajectory of the
potential of your boys going ina direction you don't want.
But thank you for You know, justexuding such a beautiful part of

(39:47):
the Type 4.
welcome.

Jeff (39:48):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
One of the dynamics that happen,I'm assuming this happens with
other parents, I know it does,but I'm going to give you guys
the benefit of the doubt.
Sometimes in parenting.
Uh, I might initiate something,Beth may initiate something, but

(40:12):
the other spouse disagrees, andso we end up dancing about
parenting, and we're notactually parenting the child.
Like the child's like, hey, canyou guys do this another time?
I don't need to be here forthis.
Yeah.
But, but I am curious, I mean,uh, now, uh, seeing you both and
talking with you about this andasking you the same question and

(40:32):
having different responses, um,what is it like for you?
How do you relate as a couplewhenever there are disagreements
about parenting a child?

Beth (40:44):
And what would be the typical things maybe you are
different on?

Bruce (40:49):
Well, I think, I think how we approach that has had a
very different history.
Like, I think maybe one place tostart would be back when we had
our first and he was a baby.
About putting him to bed.

Heather (41:04):
Oh, you know, the whole cry it out situation.
Yes.
Yes, we do.
So our, our first had a lot ofreflux.
He had a really hard timesleeping for a very long time
and.
I did not like hearing him cry,and so, and Bruce was totally
fine with it.
I didn't enjoy it, I just feltlike it was necessary.

(41:27):
It was necessary to get to thegoal.

Beth (41:30):
But even right there, that is such a classic 4 3 thing,
because the 3 is like, hey, Whatis efficient and what is best is
this path over here.
And it's not that I love to hearmy child cry, but the fastest
way to get us all to the otherside is this path, and we just
need to stick to it.
Whereas the four feels all thefeels of what's going on, you

(41:52):
know, and that makes it reallychallenging.
And to be, even as you

Jeff (41:55):
describe it, Beth, I, I feel the ambivalence in my heart
from those moments as a father.
Like, what do I do now?
Mm-Hmm.
I, I want to comfort child.
But is that going to set us backon them being able to self
soothe and sleep through thenight?
Well, you're sex is coming out.
And then all of a sudden you putin, yeah, that's right.
There's a whole committee goingon right now.

(42:15):
Like, well, does God think aboutall this?
Is he disappointed in me or ishe even with me?
I don't know.
And then

Beth (42:22):
you're like, I'm going to go buy several books on Amazon
to figure this out.
Oh,

Jeff (42:26):
that's the worst.
I can't.

Beth (42:28):
Because you know, it's true.
It's the worst.

Jeff (42:31):
I would totally have a dozen parenting books on
sleeping the next week.

Beth (42:36):
Okay.
Back to you guys.
That's right.

Jeff (42:40):
Thanks for joining us.
We're going to do our thing now.
You're having like an

Heather (42:42):
internal moment as we're talking about it.
Yeah, no, I, I really think, Imean, that caused major conflict
for a little bit because I, Iwould just look at him and say,
I would say it's my baby and I'mgoing in there.
Like I just couldn't.
So the one time he did sleeptraining, uh, I was actually
gone for the weekend.
Oh, she didn't

Bruce (43:02):
know I was going to be doing sleep training.
She was gone.
It was my opportunity for, to docrying out.
I've never

Jeff (43:08):
heard

Bruce (43:09):
of sleep training.

Beth (43:12):
Poor guy, one, his, his kids are in his twenties and,
and.
To I don't think you, we didn'treally read up on all the things
except for that one book.
So anyway, so you did sleeptraining and how did it go?

Bruce (43:25):
Well, I mean, it was now

Heather (43:27):
sleeps.

Bruce (43:29):
Keep in mind at this point, he was like well over a
year.
I mean, he was, it wasn't likewe were trying to get an eight
month old.
Maybe he had been.
Crying when we had

Heather (43:37):
his siblings and you could swaddle them put in a
pacifier and they just go tosleep.
Yeah Yes.
Oh, this is what people weretalking about.
It wasn't something wrong withus like and now, you know
Anyway, there's a lot more tothat even of learning about who
he is and his wiring and evenlike his neurology and stuff So
well Heather just to pick up onsomething.

Jeff (43:59):
I mean the fact that you got bigger you raised your arm
This is my baby Did you feellike you needed to get big?

Heather (44:09):
Oh, there's a whole thing there.
Bruce is four years older thanme.
Oh, okay.
I'm elderly.
He's elderly.
He was, he was a senior when Iwas a freshman when we met at
college.
But there's a part of me thatreally just let him make the

(44:29):
choices, make the decision, bethe ultimate voice in our family
because of that age gap.
Yeah.
And.
Me being more back and forth andnot really confident of what I
think, um, or believe aboutthings.
And so, I, when I really let,like, when that gut or that
heart was just, like, rearingup, it, it was a lot to push

(44:52):
through and say no, enough, thisreally matters to me.
And I think our marriage hasgrown, one, when we started
taking walks and it was a moreside by side relationship.
He was asking for advice onwork.
I would talk about my work andOur marriage grew a ton during

(45:13):
that time, but then even with mehaving this business and being
an author I have selfdifferentiated a lot and Come
into my own of what I reallythink is important, right?
But I but when it comes to ourkids, I think Sometimes I will
feel like there's a really bigproblem.

(45:34):
I'm sensing these two boys arereally not getting along and
it's very important that we dealwith that.
And I'm trying to, it's almostlike I'm trying to be the neck
to turn his attention to it.
And, cause he's just goingforward, his head is straight
and I'm like, no, no, look righthere.
This is a really big problem.
And I think before.
His dismissiveness of it made methink well then it maybe it's

(45:56):
not a problem And I think I'mlearning to kind of own Where I
am right and then also trust himwhen I'm making a bigger deal
out of something.
That's not a deal

Jeff (46:04):
Well, and you guys are so awesome.
I mean one you're able toarticulate All the various
dynamics that are happening andI, I, I know that that comes as
a consequence of doing a lot ofwork, uh, and walking through
some very meaningful and deepconversations.
So thank you.
Um, even for my kids when we hada season of really profound

(46:27):
sorrow.
gift I was able to give to mykids is to do my own work.
Um, and they saw it and knowthat it's okay to go to the,
those places because you'regoing to, God's going to do
something there.
Well, we, so.
We've got a lot of questionsthat we could ask going but I
Want to you can choose the lastquestion.

(46:49):
Okay, which one you want toanswer?
So I'm gonna give you fouroptions And you get to choose
Number one is this what are youravoid at all cost rules?
like this will never happen inour home or

Heather (47:05):
though the rule is What is the rule I would stick to it?
That's right.
So Beth

Jeff (47:10):
was teased as a child by her brother So there was never
an option no matter how muchconflict she had to face that
Our kids could tease each otherat all like immediately stop But
okay, number two is are thereever situations where your child
embarrasses you?

(47:33):
So, like, where your sense ofproving your worth as a parent
is showing up because your kid'snot doing what you want them to
do.
Number three is, do yourchildren ever give you feedback?
And what is that feedback?
Um, and if they're not givingyou feedback, why?
Or the last one is what's yourdominant style of, or your

(47:55):
preferable style of engagingwith your children?
Is it teaching, correcting,affirmation, coaching?
Is it just being present,physically present?
Or whatever that style might be.

Heather (48:07):
So which question sounds, I think, I think I'm
going to pick number two becauseI feel like it really fits with
me being a four wing three andhim being a three.
Okay.
Yeah.
You can both really different

Jeff (48:16):
questions too.
That's perfect.
Yeah.
I'm

Heather (48:18):
going to pick that one because it really, it also fits
with my book a lot.
Great.

Jeff (48:23):
Let's do

Heather (48:23):
that.
Chapter 1, 2, 3, all about mereally working through my kids,
separating my kids behavior frommy worth as a mom.

Jeff (48:32):
Yes.
That is the question.

Heather (48:34):
It was, I'm just saying that was my story.
Yes.
Like that is literally, myjourney as a mom was they can be
wrong and I can be okay.

Jeff (48:44):
Well let's be honest, I mean in our 20s when we are
differentiating from ourparents, we are wrestling with
that question that.
Am I going to be who I want tobe or who my parents need me to
be?
And so it is if you've notrealized that in some ways you
are Battling still with yourparents in your head when you're
parenting then you've got somework to do That's for our

(49:06):
audience not necessarily for youguys, but um, well, why don't
you explain a little bit moreHeather?
Like what what is it personallyfor you?

Heather (49:13):
Uh, I think that it was another layer of performance,
you know a layer of Okay, thembeing good, out in public, tells
other people I'm a good mom andthen I'm okay.
Then I'm feeling good about whoI am as a person.

(49:34):
Instead of, And that just becameincreasingly harder to do the
more boys I had.
The kinds of boys I had.
And the fact that there's four.
There are four of them and oneof me and they are more high
energy.
Um, you come from a very highenergy family.
We haven't had diagnoses ofattention things, but we

(49:55):
probably have some attentionthings going on.
And so there was legitimate.
But then when I'm trying tocontrol all that chaos and it's,
I ended up having a panic attackand a chicken drive through line
because I could no longerpretend.
Because I wasn't okay inside.
And I was pretending that I wasokay on the outside so that I

(50:18):
would be approved by others.
And that, I just combusted.

Jeff (50:22):
Yes.

Beth (50:22):
Couldn't,

Heather (50:22):
couldn't hold.

Beth (50:23):
That is such a perfect example of a four of the three
wing.
Seriously, cause like,literally, cause your core is
The four to be your mostauthentic self, like to show the
world, this is who I am.
I'm proud of who I am.
This is what I can offer that'sunique and different and
special.
And yet the three is saying,whoa, whoa, whoa, there are all

(50:43):
these rules that we need to holdto so that people see this like
glittering image as a mom.
And we have to do that first andforemost because people see it
or, or the lack thereof.
And that's going to devalue us.
And you could only hold that forso long.
And then the four is just goingto burst through and say enough.

(51:05):
I have to be me.

Heather (51:09):
Well, you layer on top of that Christianity.
Sure.
And I was current, I was writingthe God centered mom blog, like
God centered mom and Godcentered mom was my podcast.
And that had shifted from I'm,you know, I am self centered and
child centered and now I want tobe God centered to.

(51:30):
Everyone thinking, I, I alreadyam the God centered mom, like I
figured it.
So I was trying to, in myeffort, in this appearance of
being very faithful andspiritual, hold that in.
Yep.

Jeff (51:45):
Well, Bruce, in our few remaining minutes, uh, what's
your, uh, dominant or prime orpreferable style of engaging
with your children?
And as examples, do you feellike you're doing a lot of
teaching, a lot of correcting?
Is it affirmation based?
Is it coaching based or, youknow, is it just, I am present
and available to you?

Bruce (52:04):
I would say it's first and foremost affirmation based.
Um, I think, um, that, um, thatcomes easy to me and I enjoy it
and I enjoy, you know, so, soall that, I think number one is,
is that I think number two isvery much a kind of, uh, begin

(52:24):
with the end in mind and reallykind of have them, you know, try
to.
Talk a little bit more forwardthinking so rather than talk
about like doing something rightnow.
It's more about

Jeff (52:35):
yeah,

Bruce (52:35):
you know where we're going And so I would say those
are probably right, but I wouldsay the affirmation is easily
the number one.
Do you agree?

Heather (52:43):
Yes, I think it is a very big gift to these boys.
They have no idea that thedominant father figure in their
life is a kind voice in theirhead.
That is a gift for a lifetimethat so many people are trying
to overcome.
In particular, in therelationship with God, they
can't imagine a God who isloving and kind and they have

(53:04):
you.
And my dad was that way.
He was very loving and kind andprobably what drew me to you as
well.
It's just your positivityreminded me of my dad.

Beth (53:13):
Well, and it's also a great example of a three with a
two wing.
So threes are great encouragers,twos are great encouragers, twos
are wanting to get in there andconnect and help and support.
So it sounds like you're veryinvolved with a boy's lives.
Uh, your affirmations are, Tunedinto them, uh, just instead of
just kind of, you know, like arock skipping on the pond.

(53:35):
Um, but then the other reallygreat thing that threes are good
at is starting with the end inmind.
That is literally what a threedoes because a three is never
going to take on a challenge ora task or a goal or a mission
without the end in mind.
Because for them, they want tomake sure, can I accomplish it?

(53:55):
You know, I, they're not justgoing to.
Just, you know, open the doorto, you know, a dark room and
just go like, okay, I'm going tocalculate this.
Do I have enough time?
Do I have enough resources?
Do I have enough skill?
And so having the end in mind isreally helpful and not everyone
can do it like a three.
That's just not everyone'ssuperpower.
And so to teach your sons how todo that, if they're not threes

(54:16):
and you've got four boys, sothere's the likelihood of none
of them are threes.
So you're teaching them a skillthat they may not naturally
have.
So that's a really.
really cool thing.

Jeff (54:26):
Hey, you have been a gift.
This is, uh, we appreciate justbeing with you and your
willingness to engage.
And I think it, uh, you're soinsightful in being able to
connect with your heart and yourparenting and your big story.
So thank you so much.
And all

Beth (54:42):
the work that you have done in the 22 years to get
here, you know, and it does takejust as an encouragement.
And I think you guys would saythe same as an encouragement to
those that are new to parentingor in those toddler years.
Hang on, keep going, keeplearning about yourself, keep
growing, it's bumpy, it can beturbulent, it can be rocky, but

(55:04):
these are all things that God isusing to help us to grow closer
to Him, closer to one another,and closer to our kids.
Would you guys agree?

Heather (55:12):
Completely.
Completely.
And talk to other people.
We were at dinner the othernight with a couple, okay, so
they're a 6 and a 7.
Uh huh.
And we have walked with them.
I mean, they've shown up todinners and said, they just had
a fight, you know, we are real,real.

Bruce (55:26):
And they're still working through the fight as they're
coming in.
Yeah, not over.
You know,

Heather (55:32):
she's the six and he's the seven and they were using
this analogy of like, well, he'sthe red shiny balloon and she's
the tack who's just coming inand popping it.
And she said, well, that's kindof a negative.
Let's think of something else.
And so they came up and I thinkit's so fantastic that he's the
red shiny balloon and she is thestring.

(55:53):
And so without him, she wouldjust be a string on the ground
and not having any fun.
And without her, he would bejust floating off in outer
space.
And so they kind of ground eachother.
Literally

Beth (56:03):
what we say.
So my dad and my mom are theexact same couple type
combination.
And we literally talk about howhe is like this balloon.
And she's actually the oneholding onto the balloon.
But you lift your head up tolook at a balloon, right?
Or a kite.
So your head's up instead ofjust.
Kind of being in the negative,but then my dad literally would

(56:23):
fly away without my mom and whoknows where he would be.
In some like fun fantasy world.
He was a

Jeff (56:31):
pediatric allergist and when our son started to wear
Costumes but not just forHalloween or four right all
every day is a new costume.
Yeah, you have four boys, youknow

Heather (56:45):
Yeah, we've had those stages.
Yeah Just decided I'm

Jeff (56:48):
gonna dress up like spider man and be a doctor for a day
and but that It happened and itwas a gift to everybody there,
but your mom had to ground melike you need to be
professional.
They're not gonna trust you.

Beth (57:04):
If every day it's a different costume may not work
out.
Right.
Maybe once a year, Bruce.
Maybe.
I'm, sorry.
My dad is Bruce.

Jeff (57:11):
That's right.
Yeah, not you, Bruce.

Beth (57:13):
I just realized like you're probably thinking why is
she saying my name?
Well, thank you guys for comingon our show today.
We are just so thrilled to getto know you and hear your story
and what God has done in andthrough your 22 years of
marriage, but also yourparenting.
And I just want to remindeveryone out there that
Heather's first book, we're soexcited about this.

(57:33):
This is being released October12th, and it's called Don't Mom
Alone.
And boy, do not mom alone, forsure.
Like we all think we should dothat because we feel shame and
guilt and all the things, butplease go check out our book.
Her podcast has the same name.
Check out her podcast, um, andthen we'll link all the show
notes, um, and everything wetalked about there so you can

(57:55):
all, uh, check out her book, herpodcast, and everything we
talked about.

Jeff (57:59):
Well, friends, the kind of conversations that we can have
with people is something thatyou can do as well.
And here in a few weeks, we'regoing to be opening up our new
Uh, Enneagram marriage andfamily coaching certification.
And so we hope you'll go andtake a look because there's
tremendous opportunities to beable to extend God's grace to
some very, uh, dear parts of ourhearts.
And, uh, uh, people need helpand, um, we're glad to train

(58:23):
people to be able to do that.

Beth (58:24):
But as always, remember that the Enneagram reveals your
need for Jesus, not your need towork harder.
It's the gospel that transformsus.
We'll see you on the nextepisode.