March 3, 2025 • 67 mins
In this episode, Beth and Jeff welcome Adam Young to the podcast to discuss his extensive work on trauma and story work, highlighted in his upcoming book. The conversation delves into the intricate process of bringing personal and professional experiences together to facilitate healing and integration. Adam shares his journey of discovering the impact of formative stories on his life and the essence of 'story work,' emphasizing the importance of confronting and engaging with one's personal narratives at a granular level. The discussion further explores various attachment styles, the influence of past trauma on present relationships, and the critical role of kindness towards oneself in the healing process. Beth and Jeff also share their personal experiences, illustrating how these concepts have been transformative in their lives.
Thank you to our guest:
Adam Young - https://adamyoungcounseling.com/
His new book - https://a.co/d/2L8Axc1
We have many more amazing Enneagram for Moms resources at www.enneagramformoms.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jeff (00:00):
Adam, well, welcome to the podcast.
(00:02):
Beth and I have been lookingforward to talking to you about
this work that you've been infor the past several years and
are thrilled, thrilled that, um,that we get to have you on the
podcast to talk about such animportant book.
So welcome.
Adam (00:17):
Thank you.
It's a delight to be here to seeyou both.
Thank you.
Jeff (00:22):
And, and so we talked a little bit, uh, just before the
show, but this is not somethingthat you just wrote overnight.
This is something that you'veactually been painstakingly, uh,
writing over the past number ofyears.
I, what is it, what's it likefor you to take personal work,
(00:43):
professional work, and then tryto put something together that
you, I know that you carry atremendous burden and passion
for the sake of others to findhealing.
But to put that all into a book,that seems like a lot of
pressure, but it, I mean, it's aworthy venture because it's been
so helpful, uh, even to usalready.
So what was that process likefor you?
Okay.
Adam (01:24):
to be introduced to the idea that I had a story and that
the symptoms in my life,anxiety, depression, difficulty
with relationships, marriage,difficulties, difficulties with
God, that all of these symptoms,difficulties, being alone, just
with Adam, that these symptoms.
may be rooted in my story.
(01:48):
And by story, I really meanstories, plural, because all of
us have so many stories ofthings that we experienced
between the ages of zero and 18when we were with our primary
caretakers that havesignificantly affected Uh, the
way we see the world, the way weexperience the world,
(02:09):
particularly the way we relateto the people who are closest to
us.
So, it was, writing it was alabor of love to my younger self
and to, and to all the peoplethat want like a concise, clear,
Explanation of what we mean whenwe invite people into story
(02:31):
work.
Jeff (02:32):
Yeah, now you use a word there that I want to help
clarify because it's, it'sworthy of distinction.
The idea of story.
A lot of people, they might gosee a therapist and therapists
have been trained in all kindsof various modalities and using
different metaphors and analogyto describe what their processes
(02:53):
are.
But you're using the term storywork.
Can you define that for peopleso that they understand exactly
what you mean and how that'sdifferent?
Adam (03:02):
Sure.
Great question.
So if I were to have been askedas a 35 year old man, Hey Adam,
what's your story?
I would have told like a 30, 000foot overview of, you know, I
grew up in a family of five.
I have two twin brothers thatare two years younger than me.
My dad, uh, was a Vietnam vet.
(03:24):
Um, I had some emotional,physical abuse as a kid.
I was super close to my mom andI would have been able to put
some words.
To what I would call my story,but it would have been very high
level, very general.
And when we talk about storywork, what we're really talking
(03:47):
about is getting into theparticularity of, on the ground
level, telling of two, three,four of the formative stories.
That you may remember from yourgrowing up years and lots of
people have memories orfragments of memories, slices of
(04:09):
memories, portions of memories,and they dismiss those as quote
unquote, no big deal because theposture is that happened 30
years ago.
I don't see how that could stillbe affecting me today.
So, for example, When I was inmiddle school, I was ruthlessly
mocked because a rumor startedthat I shaved my legs.
(04:31):
I didn't have a lot of hair onmy legs as a boy.
I was later, a late developer interms of puberty and it was
brutal.
So I can tell you that storylike I just did or I could tell
you one of the stories.
of when it happened, who did it,where I was, what I felt, what
(04:55):
the sensations in my body were,what I did when I went home from
school that day after havingbeen humiliated in front of, you
know, my classmates.
And even now as I'm talking withparticularity, You can probably
feel the shift in your own body.
Jeff (05:12):
Yes.
Adam (05:13):
When we talk about story work, we're talking about
particularity.
I'm not talking about, I had analcoholic father.
I'm talking about, it was my10th birthday.
My mother was there, my friend,this is not my story, I'm making
this up.
My friends were there.
My dad got there late and hecame home drunk and he
(05:35):
humiliated me in front of myfriends at my 10 year old
birthday party.
That's a ground level, that'sthe beginning of a ground level
story, telling of the story withparticularity.
So story work is about theincidents.
It's about the scenes.
(05:56):
It's
Jeff (05:56):
Now, one of the things that what you're emphasizing
there and so just for ourlisteners, uh, Adam and I went
through some training with DanAllender back in the
Beth (06:09):
10,
Jeff (06:10):
000 years ago, probably 10 years ago.
Um, yeah.
And, One of the things thatwhere you were very helpful and
at times interpreting what I wasexperiencing through that
training because you had alreadydone so much work regarding the
brain.
What?
Why is it?
That when we get into theparticulars of story, of
(06:31):
retelling a story and gettinginto the details.
And I remember a story that Itook to that training and I was
walking through a neighborhood,but I only had shorts and a tank
top on.
And I was being invited to talk.
What did the grass feel like onmy feet?
What did the, you didn't haveshoes on.
What was it like walking milesin the Texas summer with no
(06:55):
shoes on?
Like, we were getting verygranular on what my experience
was like whenever I was thatyoung,
Adam (07:03):
Yes.
Jeff (07:04):
but that's part of the process, the healing process
here.
What, what's happening uniquelywhen we're telling specific
detailed stories?
What's happening in our bodiesand brain whenever we're doing
those things?
Um,
Adam (07:41):
Absolutely, but it also affects our bodies And the
nature of trauma is that itcauses fragmentation What is
fragmentation?
It's the separation of regionsof your brain from one another
and so the brain is a complexsystem.
Complex systems are more stablewhen they are differentiated and
(08:03):
linked both.
The nature of the grass underyour feet or the hot Texas
pavement under your feet, whenyou experience trauma, the
memory of the sensations Of thehorrific event, get separated
from your thoughts about theevent, get separated from your
(08:27):
emotions that you experienced inthe event, get separated from
the timestamp of theautobiographical memory of the
event, and all that stuff getsseparated.
In Christian language, it's theopposite of shalom.
Jeff (08:42):
Okay.
Adam (08:43):
Shalom is about integration.
It's about connection.
Brains function best when theyare high, the neurons in your
brain are highly connected withone another.
But when we have a traumaticexperience.
That stuff gets separated,fragmented, disconnected, which
(09:04):
is why 30 years later, you mightsee an expression on your wife's
face or a edge in your husband'svoice, and you are reacting to
that.
And you don't know why, and youcall it an overreaction, but
it's not.
You are responding to deeplevels of memory in your body
(09:29):
that his tone of voice or herfacial expression evoked.
Jeff (09:34):
Yeah, well, an interesting story just to illustrate this,
to kind of give it, make it realand live.
Um, Beth and I were in Floridathis week, Cocoa Beach, and
People kept recommending to usto go to the Ron Jon surf shop.
It's like the second largest RonJon surf shop in the United
(09:59):
States.
I guess there's another onecalled California.
And
Beth (10:02):
which we kind of laughed because if anyone knows
Jeff (10:05):
us, we
Beth (10:06):
both grew up.
In the middle of the UnitedStates.
Nowhere close to anybody in theworld.
We don't do beach
Jeff (10:11):
life.
So we're not,
Beth (10:12):
like, beach goers of any sort of imagination.
So we were like, really?
Like, you really think we shouldgo?
And we're like, alright, we'llgo.
You know, like, people say it'sone of those things you just
gotta check off.
And I'm like, okay.
So we go.
Jeff (10:24):
So we, we walk in, and We're doing this just to say
that we did it and we're walkingthe downstairs is the guy
section and we did I was like,hey, those are I need a new
swimsuit Which that that hadstory to it because as our
listeners know I had a heartattack I've lost a ton of weight
and I'm still in the process ofrecovering and living in this
(10:49):
new body that That would be acool one.
That'd be great.
And there's a button, a shortsleeved button up that, yeah,
that'd be great for you.
And I'm like, no, I'm not thatkind of guy.
I'm not the skater guy.
So that gets into all kinds ofstory work.
Well, we, we decided, okay, wegot to go upstairs.
(11:10):
And so we're going to go lookupstairs.
Well, we get up the steps andthen we take a left.
And the first section wasbathing suits, women's bathing
suits.
What happened for you then?
Beth (11:25):
I almost, I instantly kind of said, Why are we here?
We don't need to be here.
Like there's nothing here forus.
Like I was so annoyed.
Like, I don't want to be here.
This isn't my kind of stuff.
Like I was, I was
Jeff (11:41):
agitated and
Beth (11:41):
agitated.
Jeff (11:42):
So like right there, that's what Adam had just said.
Like, why are you reacting thisway?
Beth (11:48):
Which normally if people say that, then I get more
reactive because it's more like.
It feels like it's more, uh, whyare you, and that goes into
other story work.
Adam (12:01):
Yep.
Jeff (12:01):
Okay, we're, yeah, so now she's got memories of people
responding to her when somethingis happening, but they're
saying, I mean, what, what wasyour mom's line?
Don't be so dramatic.
So Beth's having an experienceand as we keep trying to walk
(12:21):
around, you're noticing likethere were bikinis there, there
were crop tops there, likeyou're picking up on specific.
Types of clothing
Beth (12:33):
and getting
Jeff (12:33):
more agitated.
Beth (12:34):
Yeah, but so growing up in kind of the 1980s Christian
focus on the family type of Erafor my parents you were not not
only were you not allowed towear anything of that sort To
even think you might wearsomething, you were bad.
(12:58):
So just to even be around it, itfelt like all of, um, that
culture was in the room with me,
Adam (13:08):
Yes.
Yes.
Beth (13:10):
did not want to participate.
Like, I didn't want to, I didn'twant to have to, let's say
caretake, really, this culturethat wasn't even physically
there, but I felt responsible.
To it in the moment and Ididn't, I didn't wanna have to
deal with it.
I would rather have not been atthe store than to have to face
(13:30):
that memory.
Jeff (13:31):
And then there's other dynamics to it as well, because
there was, it was expensive.
There was money involved and,and like,'cause we ended up
talking about this mm-hmmBecause you don't spend money
Yeah.
On this kind of stuff.
I dunno how to have fun.
basically, which was, that's areally big deal because it was a
new topic of conversation.
Four little younger Beths.
(13:54):
is dangerous because there areso many rules from an
Evangelical context.
Camp culture.
Be good.
Dress modestly.
Boys are over, uh, sexualized.
Girls are sexualized.
Beth (14:14):
Just go along to get along.
So what does my older brotherwant to do?
What do my parents want to do?
Like that's it.
Just to make them happy and thenyou don't go to
Jeff (14:22):
stores like this to buy stuff and have fun Even though
there was money in your family.
There was still always thisdon't spend money on yourself
Dynamic
Beth (14:30):
don't be selfish.
Don't be
Jeff (14:33):
so what what ends up happening is is that for?
Three hours?
Beth (14:39):
Maybe not that long, but yeah, at least two hours.
I was very dysregulated.
We go
Jeff (14:42):
out to dinner to go grab some pizza, which was pretty
good, and,
Beth (14:47):
but you're still feeling it.
And Jeff's like trying to askreally good questions and my, my
logical brain, right, my adultbrain could see that, that my
husband's wanting to engage inmy story, but the, what I would,
and you would, I, you'll have tofill this in, because I really,
I am interested in yourviewpoints on this.
(15:08):
What I would say is my avoidantattachment style, at the moment,
because we talked earlier abouthow I go back and forth between
avoidant and ambivalent.
My avoidant personality, orattachment, was saying, Why is
he asking me all thesequestions?
Like I'm about ready.
I'm being set up for something.
I'm gonna get caught.
I'm gonna do something wrong I'mgonna say something wrong and
(15:30):
then this is gonna go south andit did It did do that.
And then I'm spinning in mymind.
See I can't do anything, right?
I'm getting it all wrong now.
Now he's feeling bad now I'm youknow, and it and then I really
just went way offline into mytrauma response So having
(15:53):
complex trauma went into that,and so I'm really dysregulated.
Thankfully, Jeff, of course,knowing all that I'm going
through and working through andhave done his own work, he knew
where I was at.
He just hung in there.
But it definitely took some timefor that dysregulation to come
back to a, a place where myfrontal lobe was able to come
(16:18):
back online, and we couldactually have An adult
conversation versus little Bethybeing all dysregulated.
So, I'd love to hear.
Yeah,
Jeff (16:26):
so Adam, people who are listening, um, they know this
kind of experience and they stayquiet about it in their
marriages.
They're deeply ashamed of it.
They don't have any sense ofdirection, hope, understanding,
any interpretive grid tounderstand what's happening.
Tons of shame, tons ofpowerlessness.
(16:49):
So, Beth has used a number ofdifferent categories in
retelling that story, which arecategories that you're using in
your book.
Adam (16:58):
Yeah.
Jeff (16:58):
So how is it that your, this paradigm that you're
offering to people through yourbook, how is that, how can that
help someone like Beth, who isnew and maybe could find hope in
doing some story work?
Adam (17:14):
Yes.
Uh, well, first of all, thanksfor sharing the, that.
It's not a vignette.
It is a vignette, but it's fromyour life.
But it's not only from yourlife, it's from your very recent
life.
Jeff (17:30):
This was Thursday.
Yeah, it's Monday.
Adam (17:35):
that's such a gift to your listeners, just to hear the
story gives so many people thesense of, I am not alone.
I am not alone.
Beth had this experience.
Okay, so let's talk a little bitabout, I love the categories
that you've offered.
You found yourself in that surfshop remembering some really
(18:02):
unpleasant stuff, but you had nosensation of recall, so you
didn't know it was a memory.
You just had the bodilysensation of, I don't want to be
in the bathing suit area of thissurf shop.
Jeff (18:16):
Um,
Adam (18:43):
engages and that engagement alone stirred up even
more accusation inside and, andall my heart.
I mean, even as you werenarrating it, I was just like.
Oh, that was a hard couple ofhours.
Jeff (19:03):
It was,
Adam (19:04):
That was a hard couple of hours for your body because you
were remembering.
Jeff (19:14):
It's interesting the way that you just said that, Adam,
that it was not necessarilycognitive nor willful.
Adam (19:24):
No, it was automatic.
Jeff (19:27):
I mean, you've been in these circles, Adam, and you
know, like, there is a sense towhere it is sometimes
communicated, particularlywithin a Christian worldview, to
take a thought captive.
And,
Adam (19:42):
right.
Jeff (19:45):
and, and this is where, like, Beth, I know, is part of
the, the, the sorrow that shecarries is that she wants to
turn it off.
She wants to catch it quick andnot have to suffer for a few
hours.
Adam (19:58):
Sure.
Jeff (20:00):
And, but, and, but she doesn't even know that it's
happening.
Beth (20:03):
Or where it's coming from or, or how to stop it.
Adam (20:07):
right.
Beth (20:08):
a lot of times, like I said, is when you're trying to
engage with me.
Jeff (20:13):
Oh, I am, I am, your body is responding to, you're not
even responding to menecessarily.
No,
Beth (20:23):
well, I mean, in the past, before I realized I had complex
trauma, I thought I wasresponding to you
Adam (20:30):
Of course.
Beth (20:31):
because you're the, you're right here.
But then of course, reading yourbook, Adam, when you talk about
implicit and explicit memory, Iwas like, Oh man, this is making
so much more sense.
It's like, I am reacting toJeff, not because of him, but
because of what I went throughin the past.
(20:52):
But all I can see is that thisis my husband in front of me,
and so what makes me sad, andI'd love to hear your thought on
this, is that I would blame himfor what I was feeling in the
moment, because that's all Icould see or feel or experience.
I didn't understand that mystory Was actually what was
(21:13):
playing a bigger role in thatmoment.
Yeah.
Adam (21:32):
with your husband, and that although I'm sure Jeff was
not loving you perfectly, youwere very aware that what you
were feeling and experiencingfrom him was being filtered
through your past stories as agirl.
And that in that sense, you arereacting not merely to Jeff in
(21:53):
the present, but to your pastexperiences of trauma.
Jeff (21:59):
Right.
Adam (22:00):
And that is the nature of intimate relationships for all
of us who have trauma.
Jeff (22:07):
us.
Adam (22:08):
All of us.
There's no way out of that bind.
But, not everyone has thecourage that you do to
acknowledge it.
Because it can feel veryvulnerable to acknowledge that.
Because you're, you're takingresponsibility for your agony
(22:29):
that's stored in the cells ofyour body from years and years
ago before you even met Jeff.
And you're saying to Jeff, look,I'm feeling this from you, but
I'm aware that there are otherstories at play, besides what I
experience as your cruelty, oryour dismissiveness, or your
(22:51):
combativeness, or whatever itis.
And that is a, uh, the courage,the honesty, the loveliness of
that confession.
If we entered all of ourconflicts, With that awareness,
that alone would change thenature of the conflict.
Jeff (23:11):
Well,
Beth (23:11):
it did, like today.
It was a great example, and weshared a little bit of this
beforehand.
I was listening to your book,which I, I had an advanced copy,
and so I have Speechify, whichis an amazing app for people
like me who have a readingdisability.
So I was listening to your book,as I'm This
Jeff (23:30):
episode is sponsored by Speechify.
Beth (23:32):
Yeah, seriously, if you all It's a game
Jeff (23:35):
saver for Beth.
It's,
Beth (23:36):
uh, literally a game, a game saver.
But I was listening to it on theway to pick up my parents to
help them go to a doctor'sappointment.
I knew I was setting myself up,but like Jeff said later, no,
you were engaging your story.
You knew that you were learningabout how to engage your story
as you went to go engage yourstory with your parents.
(23:59):
And so then when I came home,what's, what's so wonderful is
that as Jeff, as we know, youtwo started your real journeys
of recovery about 10 years ago,Jeff has been on this journey
and What's been great is that asI've been able to see, oh wait,
(24:20):
this isn't about Jeff.
This is about the pain and thesorrow that I have not known or
been able to recognize or namein the past.
And so when I came home, I wasvery dysregulated and I knew I
probably was going to be andJeff's like, would you like to
talk about it?
And,
Jeff (24:41):
and some of that, I will say for our listeners, some of
the terms that you'll hear Bethuse are terms that we have
adopted To stay away from othershaming terms.
Beth came home upset.
That actually could be a veryactivating way to characterize
what's happening in her.
And so we've tried to come upwith terms that somehow help her
(25:04):
give her hope.
Like, something's happeninginside of me that I don't need
to be ashamed about and that Iadd to freedom to me.
Beth (25:12):
But it's also been helpful because what, so as I, again,
Okay.
I have a lot of avoidanttendencies.
When I got home, I knew that mywonderful loving tender husband
would know because he asked meto get him Starbucks.
And I was like, I just can't,I'm sorry.
(25:33):
You're going to have to makeyourself comfortable.
I
Jeff (25:35):
felt the text.
Yeah.
Beth (25:37):
I knew he would.
So when I got home, I knew hewould be curious and.
He would be there for me if Iwas willing, and I, I honestly
didn't know if I could or wantedto talk about it.
Adam (25:53):
Yep.
Beth (25:53):
I was fearful of my dysregulation, just like it was
in my family of origin.
They couldn't handle my beingupset or frustrated.
And so, Whenever I see you notknowing what to do with my
dysregulation or it frustratingyou or, or a lot of times me
blaming you maybe for it or youfeeling like I'm blaming you.
(26:16):
So I was like, Hey, I am reallyspun out, triggered, whatever
word you want to use.
And you were like, would youlike to talk about it?
And I was really scared.
And not because you're a scaryperson.
Jeff (26:31):
You literally said, I don't feel safe right now.
Beth (26:33):
And I, and I, of course I couched it saying.
But that's not because of you.
But not because of you.
And you said, you don't have tosay that.
But that was because you've doneyour own work.
And I do appreciate that.
But as I sat down and I startedexplaining what I experienced,
what I was going through.
Honestly, a lot of my sorrowright now is that I have been
(26:55):
unpacking my story and I'mseeing things.
That I didn't want to see orrecognize or know many years
ago, or as a child, and now Isee it and can name it, but I
don't, it's like, I don't knowhow to fully yet move through it
(27:20):
all.
Especially when you know thatmaybe your family, you know,
parents being older are able togo there.
And so having to love them, Imean, I love them, you know,
they're wonderful, sweet people,and we have a story.
And I have a story that I needto unpack and understand how it
(27:43):
affects me today.
But I don't have the capacity tounpack it really with them.
So you allowing me to unpack ittoday.
It was really, really helpful,and I was really afraid because
I knew my emotions were huge.
And in my family of origin, thatwas not okay.
(28:06):
Unless, unless you're happy.
Your emotions are big and happy.
That's okay.
Jeff (28:11):
Well, Adam, and this speaks to something that Beth is
alluding to.
We, we have a lot of reasons whywe don't want to engage our
stories.
Adam (28:23):
Sure.
Jeff (28:24):
For Beth, it's, I don't know how to talk to my sibling,
I don't know, my, my parents areaging.
Beth (28:32):
Well, I'm gonna keep the peace, I'm a nine.
And then there's,
Jeff (28:34):
there's, so there's, there's relational reasons.
Then there's personal reasons,there's personality reasons, and
just as an aside, I wanted tosay this, this is why we say
that each Enneagram type is likea Sherman Williams paint color.
You don't just go to buy a blue,there's a million blues.
Adam (28:53):
Yeah.
Jeff (28:54):
And, and like the particulars of your nineness
matter a lot more than just thegeneric, I'm a nine.
Beth (29:03):
Like your dad being a nine, we're so
Jeff (29:06):
different.
So different.
So different.
And your experience of it.
Your story of it is unique toyou, so just keep that in mind.
But, Adam, I mean, I, that's oneof the things that it, it, it
feels scary to engage thesethings.
But, and Beth has really, Idon't want to, I don't want to,
I don't want to feel this wayanymore, is what she'll
(29:26):
sometimes say to me.
What are some of the otherphrases that you hear from
people of why they don't want toengage their stories?
Adam (29:35):
Oh, yeah.
Woo.
Um, although it's notarticulated this way, Beth said
it really well.
She said, I didn't want to seewhat, what was true or I don't
want to see.
What what was true?
That's a big one.
I mean, it is very hard for usto acknowledge the truth of the
(30:02):
heartache of the devastation ofour lives.
And every no one escapes beingharmed in this world.
So even if you grew up.
In a family I want listeners toknow you don't have to
experience trauma to be able toexperience the healing power of
story work what you need to bewilling to do is to look at the
(30:24):
truth.
of what actually happened foryou as a boy or a girl in your
particular family.
Uh, another reason that peopleare reluctant to do this work
is, um, my parents did the bestthey could.
My parents are alive.
My parents, um, I don't want toblame my parents is a common
(30:45):
objection that I hear.
And we're not talking aboutblaming anyone.
There's a difference betweenblaming So blaming is a posture.
It's a pointed finger.
It's a posture of condemnationand naming is this is true.
Jeff (31:07):
Okay.
Adam (31:11):
of my relationship with my mother when I was in third
grade.
Like naming what was true.
Another way of getting at thatis it's simply in the, in
biblical language, it's cominginto the light.
Jeff (31:24):
Um, Silence.
Adam (31:40):
Uh, and it, and it can be very dysregulating and
unravelling.
It's this sense of, I've heardthis a million times, Adam, if I
go where you're inviting me togo, I will start crying and I
will never stop.
Woo, okay.
Well, I understand why you'rereluctant to go there then,
(32:03):
because you believe that if yougo there, you will start to
heave and wail and sob, andyou'll never get up off the
floor, and you need to be a wifeand a mother and a co worker,
etc.
And so that's an overwhelmingproposition for you.
And I get it.
I get it.
However, if it's the truth thatsets us free, Might there be
(32:28):
deep redemptive value in lookingat some of the core stories of
our wounding?
There's a passage in Jeremiah,it's in Jeremiah 6, it's
repeated in Jeremiah 8, whereGod gets mad at the leadership
of Israel because they dress thewounds of his people as though
(32:49):
they were not serious.
Peace, peace, everything's finewhen everything is not fine.
Sadly, many of us do that withour own wounds.
We say, peace, peace, that was30 years ago, I don't think it's
still affecting me today.
Uh, they did the best theycould.
Uh, they didn't mean to harm me.
(33:11):
Um, I was just overdramatic.
And we are dressing the woundswithin us as though they are not
serious.
And in my experience, in myopinion, uh, God longs for us to
take our wounds as seriously asGod does.
Jeff (33:30):
And one of the things that Beth has mentioned a few times,
uh, which is another Aspect ofnaming that's you as you read
through your book that help thatis very, very helpful.
And that's this idea ofattachment styles.
And there's all kinds oflanguage, different language for
different concepts, differentapplications of it.
(33:52):
I remember, um, you know,hearing about it at first for,
um, moms, uh, new moms ofnewborns, whenever they would,
they were talking aboutattachment and wanting to have
baby on skin, that kind ofstuff.
There was all kinds of, uh,conversation about attachment
styles.
And you've heard Beth mentionedabout being ambivalent or, um,
(34:12):
you've mentioned disorganizedand avoided.
Tell us a little bit about what.
What that part of theconversation means and how
that's related to story work.
Adam (34:24):
Sure.
Your, your attachment stylesimply refers to the way in
which your nervous system hasbeen wired to relate to the
people who are closest to you.
And so, uh, the essence ofwhat's called avoidant
attachment is that you grew upwith a dismissive, rejecting, or
(34:44):
shaming primary caretaker.
And as a result, whenever youexpressed emotion or longing, It
was dismissed.
It was shamed.
It was rejected.
It was shut down.
And by the age of 5, 6, 10, 15,you realize, I'm alone in the
(35:05):
world and there is not going tobe any interactive regulation of
my body and my big feelings.
I have to do that by myself.
There is no person in my world,mother, father, stepmother,
stepfather, who is willing to bewith me in my big feelings and
(35:26):
help me regulate them.
They're not interested in that.
And so what you learn is, I'vegot to regulate my body by
myself.
I'm on my own.
That's avoidant attachment.
The essence of what's calledambivalent attachment is that
you had a caretaker that wasinconsistent and intrusive.
(35:48):
By inconsistent, I mean theywere there for you one minute.
This is my story.
I'm an ambivalently attachedman.
My mother would be there for melots of times.
super there for me until shewasn't because she was too
preoccupied with her own trauma,her own feelings, her own needs.
(36:08):
And all of a sudden I wasutterly alone.
And the madness of thatuncertainty creates distrust in
the nervous system.
In other words, I grow up tobecome an adult and my felt
experiences.
Are you going to be there for meor not, Jeff, as my close
friend?
(36:28):
One minute you are, the nextminute I don't expect you to be.
Why?
Because that's how my nervoussystem has learned the world
works.
And so, in close relationships,people who are ambivalently
attached are often experiencedas needy or clingy.
Why?
Because I need constantreassurance that you're going to
(36:49):
be there for me.
You did it this morning.
Great.
But it's this afternoon.
Now, in contrast to those twotypes of attachment, there is
secure attachment.
And secure attachment is whenyou have an embodied sense of
hope that anytime there'srelational rupture, anytime
(37:12):
there's conflict, therelationship will be restored.
We will become closer throughthis.
It's inevitable and it's goingto happen soon.
And if listeners are listeningto that and they're like, I
can't imagine that.
Well, then you're not securelyattached.
And I understand it's hard forme to even imagine that.
(37:33):
But all of us can move frominsecure attachment styles to
increasingly to secureattachment.
That's the work of healing.
Jeff (37:43):
so I want
Beth (37:44):
to go there.
Okay, so I want to go there.
Because I have my own questionsabout that.
So, um, so we talked a littlebit before we got on.
That some will talk aboutdisorganized, how you can kind
of fluctuate between theambivalent and the avoidant.
So I'd love to kind of go there,but I also want to go to what
(38:06):
you're saying about that you canheal and find secure attachment.
The reason why I want to gothere is and what that process
looks like, because as you'resaying that, I'm like, yes,
because as I've been doing myown work and being able to see
Jeff.
For all that he really is, thatI have secure attachment with
(38:29):
him, all that I, all thatdysregulation was past story.
Now, I mean, of course we'remarried, so obviously there's
things that we've had to workon, but, but ultimately he is my
secure attachment, but I stillfelt the insecure attachment
struggles But now that I'mstarting the healing process, I
(38:53):
can, like, when we went to the,the Ron John store, as we were
in the car, there's part of mybrain that's like, doom and
gloom.
This is the worst.
I can't think of anything else.
And yet there's this part of me,this, it's almost like we're
watching the show Severance andit feels like my brain has been
severed.
Like I go into dysregulation andtrauma brain.
Adam (39:15):
Yep.
Beth (39:16):
But then it's like I'm reintegrating, I'm so into this
show, but it's like I'mreintegrating where I'm like
wait, no, I know Jeff and I,we're fine, like he's fine, he's
right there with me, he'shanging in there, he's not
allowing this dysregulation tothrow him off, off pace, I am
okay, he loves me.
And that, that these little,like, glimmers of hope come in
(39:39):
at the moment.
I'd love for you to talk about,because, because I still feel at
times helpless and hopeless.
Like, my story still feels attimes like it's going to eat me
whole.
Adam (39:51):
Yes.
Beth (39:53):
But then I have these glimpses of hope.
And so it's like this back andforth.
So can you walk us through that?
Adam (39:58):
Sure.
First of all, what you'redescribing is normal and natural
because you have neurons.
Jeff is giving you different,and here's the better word,
novel.
experiences for your nervoussystem.
Jeff (40:14):
Well, thank you, Adam.
Thank you.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna put that onmy, I'm a novel husband.
Adam (40:21):
so you come home dysregulated from your day.
This was two hours ago and youexpect your, by expect, I mean,
your nervous system has beenconditioned and primed to expect
Jeff to be disgusted with thefact that you are.
Overwhelmed
Jeff (40:42):
Right.
Not so much from him, but frompast.
Yeah.
Adam (40:45):
from past you've your neurons have been primed to
expect that the close people inyour life are not going to
welcome you in this state
Jeff (40:56):
Right.
Adam (40:57):
because you've had thousands experience of
experiences of that as a girlwhere you were called a drama
queen where you were cursed andaccused and named poorly.
But then, you risk letting Jeffknow a little bit, even in the
way you did the text.
You let him know a little bit,I'm not okay.
(41:21):
And that risk is, I think,properly named repentance on
your part.
You're doing something that you,that there's no reason you
should do.
Jeff (41:32):
I mean, that, well, I've not thought of it that way,
Adam, but she knew that thattext was risky because it was an
act of self care
Adam (41:42):
yes.
Jeff (41:43):
when she wanted to just care or go into codependency and
like, yeah, I'll do whatever.
I'll keep giving myself to makeyou happy.
And she said, no.
Okay.
Adam (42:10):
that?
In my opinion, you have a hungerin your gut for more, for more
vitality, for more freedom, formore goodness.
And there's, and that's almostunexplainable and inexplicable,
but it's beautiful and glorious.
And you risk with your husband.
(42:32):
Now, do you have experienceswith your husband of risking and
it going well?
Sure.
And you're building on those.
So the brain changes withnovelty and surprise.
But there has to be the risk ofsaying, Jeff, I don't feel safe.
Jeff (42:49):
Um,
Adam (42:49):
I'm not saying that you're an unsafe man, but right now,
I'm not feeling safe in my ownbody, and I'm feeling
dysregulated, and I don't knowwhat you're gonna do with me.
Like, those sentences are sorisky and so holy, and they're
giving your brain a differentexperience of the relational
(43:11):
world.
That's one of the ways, the keyingredients to the healing
process.
Jeff (43:20):
of the dynamic here, and we'll get into another topic
that's addressed in the book.
So in that moment, um, one,there is just kind of the fight
of, I want to stay present withmy husband and want to receive
his initiative, but my body'snot feeling it.
(43:44):
And so, so to say.
I don't feel safe, but that'snot because of you.
And I'm not sure I want to talk.
Um, I've got another greatfriend who, this guy has spoken
so dearly into my life, healways has privilege to speak
into my life, but he will alwaysask, um, can I share something
(44:09):
with you?
Before he shares something withme.
Um, but it, it's invitational.
And so, I've tried to mirrorthat with Beth.
But part of the difficulty whereBeth is at now is shame.
So, she's, she's identified thisattachment style.
(44:31):
It feels overwhelming as if, Oh,this is neurological.
Is this, like, never going tochange?
That's part of the negativeinner critic belief.
But then, she's also wanting toreceive in that moment from me.
And, so for her it's, thefeeling of shame of like, man,
even when my husband wants tooffer me intimacy and
(44:54):
connection, I don't have thecapacity to hold that.
Adam (45:00):
Yeah.
Jeff (45:00):
But you speak about kindness and the importance of
kindness, not necessarilykindness from other people,
kindness towards yourself,
Adam (45:12):
Yep.
Jeff (45:14):
which is, uh, and I, I remember when Allender, uh,
Quoted Paul that kindness leadsto repentance, and I have used
that ever since.
And I can't remember, I'mforgetting the artist's name,
but he actually wrote a songcalled Be Kind to Yourself.
Adam (45:36):
Andrew Peterson.
Jeff (45:37):
Yes.
I weep at the song every damntime I hear it.
Because I am, I, I'm not kind.
I, I, I walk now and my walksare, can be wearisome because my
hour long walks in the morningcan be fierce
Adam (45:57):
Yes.
Jeff (45:58):
of the lack of kindness.
How, how is it as a category ofhow we are to relate to ourself
of kindness important in doingstory work?
Adam (46:09):
Oh, uh, number one.
Top of the list importance.
Why?
You've already said it well,it's the kindness of God that
leads to repentance.
Very often, my posture towardsAdam when Adam is dysregulated,
(46:31):
because that happens to mefrequently as an ambivalently
attached man, My body gets intosimilar amped up places that
Beth's body was in just twoshort hours ago.
And when my body gets into thatplace, the question is, Adam,
how do you feel about that fact?
(46:52):
How do you feel towards the partof you that is scared right now?
Jeff (46:56):
Hi,
Adam (46:57):
What's your posture towards the part of you that's
feeling overwhelming shame rightnow?
Jeff (47:03):
of the
Adam (47:04):
ago, my posture was to say it's unkind was an
understatement.
I mean, it was just punishing.
It was, you shouldn't be afraidyou shouldn't, or you should be
more mature and shouldn't bedealing with this shame, or you
should be more mature.
You should have grown more.
(47:25):
You're an expert on this.
You have a podcast.
You should be further along,Adam, and not as affected by
that situation or by that personor by that email.
And you can hear, in my tone,the accusations.
Jeff (47:39):
Okay.
Um,
Adam (48:17):
that, in that moment, we can then ask this question.
What does my body need?
What does my heart need?
And what would kindness to mybody and my heart look like in
this moment?
Just asking that question, notknowing the answer, just asking
(48:37):
it, begins to unravel thestructures of evil in our lives.
And the answer to that questionfor me might be, I need my wife
to put her hand on my heart as Ilie down and rest.
answer might be, I need to puton the playlist of music that I
know soothes my heart.
(48:59):
The answer might be, I need totake a 10 minute walk around the
block and call a friend that Iknow understands me well and put
some words to what I'm grapplingwith.
In other words, I might need toreach out for care.
The, the answer is far lessimportant than asking the
question, what does kindnessmean?
(49:21):
Yes.
Look like to my heart and bodyright now.
That's what begins to get us outof the cycles of self contempt.
Jeff (49:29):
Well, I just hearing the way that you phrase that it, it
reminds me of those bigquestions of the Bible, like
Jesus, even asking the question,do you want to be healed?
Like it, I even asking yourself.
Like, because I've asked youthat question, what do you need
right now, needs to be askedwith kindness because you
(49:54):
quickly realize you've neverknown how to take care of
yourself.
Adam (49:58):
Yeah.
Jeff (49:59):
And there's, I mean, I, I think about our, the story of
our parents, we, we certainlyunderstood how to self medicate
and they trained us in thosestrategies, right?
But, but.
You know, how often did theyever take us aside when we were
(50:19):
spun out to go and coach usthrough how to process a
failure, a mistake?
Adam (50:26):
Yes.
Jeff (50:27):
Um, those aren't skills that we're necessarily taught.
Um, and even though we were, wehad the Enneagram and I was
going through all this training,I mean, we could talk to our
kids over and over again oftimes that we even missed with
them.
Um, And, you know, which becomeactually a model of those
(50:50):
conversations for them with ourgrandchildren.
Um, it, the, and, you know, itmakes me think there was a quote
by a missionary once, I don'tremember the missionary's name,
but Um, the quote that Iremembered, it was, Can you
strain infinite love?
(51:12):
Can you exhaust eternalkindness?
And so, to recognize that God'slove, His kindness, whatever
attribute you want to put inthere, is infinite, eternal, and
unchangeable.
Always
Adam (51:27):
Yes.
And always available.
But will I join it particularlywhen I am in need?
Like Beth was two hours ago.
Will I join it in those moments?
Jeff (51:41):
right.
Beth (51:43):
And I will say, for me, those are the moments.
I isolate
Adam (51:49):
Yes.
Yes.
And that's the nature of thebyproduct of trauma, is that we
tend to isolate in those precisemoments when we're most in need
of care.
Jeff (52:05):
Well, I don't, I mean, so I know that we've been kind of
leading the conversation andkind of through our own
experience, but what else aboutthe book that, what's something
that maybe we haven't coveredthat you'd want to make sure
that you highlight about howthis particular work can be
helpful for people?
So
Adam (52:32):
um, some words, some guidance, a path.
To exploring their own storiesand so the book is laid out, you
know, your family.
What if you explored your familyof origin story?
What if you explored your sexualstory?
We're all sexual beings and weall have stories of the
(52:56):
development of our sexuality.
And for many of us, thosestories have been unmind because
there's so much shame there.
But you you So much presumption,but your story matters to God.
And if it matters to God, willyou let it matter to you?
(53:18):
And if it matters to you, willyou write down one or two or
three?
Of the pivotal stories that youremember from your growing up
years.
So there's your family of originstory.
There's your sexual story.
There's the story that your bodyis telling you.
I have a whole chapter on that.
We are, we, especially of usevangelical types, we have to
(53:42):
come to terms with the fact thatwe're embodied creatures.
We are bodies.
Jeff (53:47):
We really don't quite grasp how significant our body
is.
It's almost, we are.
I mean, there's various forms ofthis and whether it be
Gnosticism or certaintheological traditions that de
emphasize the bodily parts ofwho we are as human beings.
Beth (54:09):
When you were, before we got on the show, you were
talking about one of thechapters in your book, Adam, is
about race and story of your ownrace.
Um, and for Jeff, you know,what's interesting is being
adopted, he didn't know hisrace.
You know, until, until we weregiven the privilege of meeting
(54:30):
his biological mom when he was30 to find out, you know, that
you are half Mexican, a fourthCherokee, and a fourth English,
and how that plays a huge rolein your story, one, because of
racism when you were younger,but also now for your health,
you know, with the diabetes andeverything, you know, there's so
(54:51):
much that plays into Jeff'sstory just on the racism.
And yeah.
Jeff (54:55):
When Adam was talking about sexuality and body.
One of the things that's beeninteresting, and I think you
experienced this about me aswell, is since I was a kid,
(55:16):
people have always reflectedback how strong I am.
And there were other boys thatenvied that.
Oh, if I were If I was as strongas Jeff, I'd be working out
more.
Jeff is lazy because he's notworking out more and yet he's so
strong or being overweight and.
(55:40):
Like I, I remember in collegefootball, my, um, body fat
percentage could, it never gotbelow like 12 or 13%, but there
are guys on the team that werein the single digits and there,
there was envy of that.
Now, I could also go over to thebench press and bench press over
400 pounds.
So there's something like it.
(56:03):
But there was ambivalencetowards this body.
Adam (56:05):
Yes.
Jeff (56:06):
after my heart attack, one of the things that came out was
how quickly my body responded.
Beth and I have talked aboutthis repeatedly where I never
got an infection.
I never had a reaction tomedication.
And my body responded when Iwalked and I pressed it with
weights and started to take careof it again.
(56:29):
It responded in kind in howgrateful I was that my body
responded.
responded because that's notalways given.
But there are beliefs, there areexperiences, like even Beth is
like, yeah, you, that's right.
Like you never got an infection.
You never had a blood clot.
You know, there was no reactionsto a medication that you had
never, that you had taken.
(56:51):
And it, it's just a part ofbeing married to Jeff and being
married to his body.
So all of that, I mean, it'sshocking to think of it, but you
bring up the race part too,because it, I remember sitting
with a diabetic specialist.
One of the criteria ofdetermining your, um,
(57:14):
inclination towards orpossibility of getting diabetes
is higher if you're of Hispanicorigin.
Adam (57:21):
Right.
Jeff (57:23):
But I grew up with very white, Texas, Caucasian family.
And so there's part of me that'slike, well, that's not me.
And then there's another part ofme.
It's like, oh no, that is me.
I just, and I carry that with meand I look at my family, my
biological family history.
And I'm like, yeah, this was.
all predictable because theywere experiencing all of these
(57:44):
things.
And so I, in some sense, I'm,I'm, I kind of, in, when I found
out that many of them struggledwith the same illnesses that I
do related to the heart and thediabetic diagnosis, I had to
grieve
Adam (58:03):
Yes.
Jeff (58:04):
and feel the sorrow and the weight of what my body has
been carrying.
Adam (58:09):
Yes.
Jeff (58:10):
That I wasn't even aware of cognitively.
And so I, you know, whenever Iget up to walk now, it's, it's
kind of, there's a certainsense, like we're, we're, we're
in this together.
I'm choosing kindness and careby going on a walk.
Beth (58:25):
Even on a day like today when it's 20 degrees.
Jeff (58:28):
He
Beth (58:30):
even said he was so cold afterwards.
It's like, I was wearing gloveswhen I was trying to work at the
computer.
I
Jeff (58:35):
couldn't, I couldn't, my body wouldn't come back.
Beth (58:38):
And I might as well close.
Um, you know, there's, like yousaid, everyone has a story, you
know, like I really did grow upin a pretty dynamic family and I
have a story,
Adam (58:50):
Yep,
Beth (58:50):
um, and I have pain.
So, there's going to be a lot ofpeople listening that are like,
wow, this makes sense, or maybeI need to step into my own story
work, but it's a big deal.
And it's a
Adam (59:04):
deal.
Beth (59:05):
And it's not easy.
Where, I mean, and your book isgreat.
So definitely get Adam's book,100%.
How else can they start doingtheir story work?
Where can, where should they go?
What should they do?
Give them some ideas.
Adam (59:21):
Sure.
Two places I know.
One is where I met your husband,Jeff, which was at the Allender
Center.
The Allender Center runs storyworkshops, which are four day
experiences where you bring astory that you write out and
it's engaged by a wise, trainedguide.
Um, and you, and that's abaptism into this work.
(59:42):
Um, the Allender center dot orgis the place you can go.
The Allender center dot org.
Um, another person that's doingwork in this area is Kurt
Thompson.
And he has, um, confession, whatthey are called confessional
communities where you can beginto explore your story, um, in
some depth for those people thatare like, Hey, I, I have a story
(01:00:06):
and I want to explore it moredeeply.
Um, if you can afford it, thereare lots of therapists or story
work coaches that are trained inthis work that will walk with
you into the details of yourstory.
(01:00:27):
And again, you can go to theallendercenter.
org, they have a find atherapist button for all the
people that have been trained inthis.
You can go to my websiteadamyoungcounseling.
com and I have a list oftherapists that have been
trained in this.
But there are increasinglyplaces where you can go and get
trauma informed story work care.
Beth (01:00:53):
Well, and also, if I can just say, also, Adam, your
podcast, if you can
Adam (01:00:58):
And my podcast! Yes, my podcast! It's called The Place
We Find Ourselves, and if you goback You know, there's like 150
plus episodes now, but go backto the beginning and listen to
especially the ones that grabyou, the titles that grab you.
And you can also listen to, Iinterview lots of people on the
(01:01:20):
podcast and they share a storythat they've written.
There's probably over 30episodes where some very
courageous volunteer comes on,reads one of their family of
origin stories, and then weengage it together.
And that's all available for youto listen to so that you can get
a sense of what does it looklike to tell a story and to
(01:01:40):
engage your story.
Jeff (01:01:43):
I, I'm mindful at the beginning of the recovery
meeting I attend, uh, they all,we always had this part of the
reading that says, if you'llcome to six consecutive
meetings, you'll start to comeout of denial.
And memories will return andrealize you may think it's too
(01:02:09):
overwhelming.
There are going to be all kindsof beliefs.
Uh, I, I can't say the truthabout my story because my family
doesn't allow me to name thetruth about my story.
And even though they may not bephysically present, they kind
of, the rule.
leads your life still.
So realize that it is, there ispatience, there's perseverance.
(01:02:32):
I do wonder, you know, Adam,when you think about for some
who might want to just grab thebook and start writing out
stories, what are someencouragements there?
And then maybe what are somecautions to give people if they
were to try to do this alonewith your book?
Um,
Adam (01:03:02):
kind of labor, like you can't do this work alone.
You can do some of it alone, butwe need each other to be named
well in the context of ourstories.
So we need other faces and othervoices to hear our stories.
I couldn't see Adam, the 10 yearold Adam, 15 year old Adam well
(01:03:28):
until there were other peoplewho heard me tell some of his
stories.
And then they said, Adam, thisis what I see in your story.
And it was like, Oh, I arrivedat a truth through the
experiences, reflections, faces,tones of voice of others who
(01:03:50):
heard my stories.
And so a word of caution wouldbe, you can do some of this work
by yourself, but you need otherpeople.
We all do.
Jeff (01:04:00):
It's shocking to me.
I mean, I, whenever I write astory down, a memory down versus
when I share it with anotherperson.
other person,
Adam (01:04:10):
Oh yeah,
Jeff (01:04:11):
which, which speaks to where, where the memory and the
healing needs to take place,like these happened physically
and embodied and need to behealed physically and embodied.
Uh, and so why it's not just ahead game of just remembering,
but it's actually experiencinghealing relationships and
(01:04:33):
letting our humanity be in, infull expression in that sense.
Beth (01:04:39):
Well, Adam, how can people, again, engage with your
work?
Let's start with your book, andthen, uh, social media places,
uh, email, and then maybe yourwebsite.
Adam (01:04:51):
sure.
The book's coming out March 4th.
It's called make sense of yourstory.
You can get it anywhere booksare sold.
Um, the podcast that I host iscalled the place we find
ourselves podcast.
It's available on all platformsand Instagram is at Adam young
counseling.
And my website is Adam youngcounseling.
(01:05:12):
com.
Beth (01:05:13):
Great.
Well, I cannot recommend more,your book, to everyone, and I
just, You know, just even froman immigrant perspective, I hope
that people will engage withyour book.
From the lens of their Enneagramtype because that's going to be
very informative and also Justto let people know that they may
(01:05:35):
not know that we've donepodcasts before we're around
trauma and type and I reallyrecommend people listening to
that if they're gonna do somestory work because we really
unpacked how each type Kind ofprocesses and goes through their
own sense of trauma and it'svery very helpful And I think
(01:05:58):
that's where a lot of our shamecan come from, you know for me
as a type 9, you know I'm like,oh, I've got to just bottle it
all up and make everyone happywhen oh, that's like the very
thing That's causing it to keepfestering inside so everyone
realize that your story in yourany room tide play a role
together and Unpacking that isso important Um, well, Adam, it
(01:06:22):
has been an absolute joy and adelight to have you with us
again.
Um, I know that we're going todefinitely have you back on our
podcast because we just lovetalking with you.
But thank you for taking thetime just to be with us.
But more importantly, thank youfor taking the time to write
this.
Even if it's just for me, itmeant the world to read your
book.
Thank you so much.
(01:06:42):
And
Jeff (01:06:42):
Adam, thank you.
You.
You were a gift to me duringthose training times, and I, I
can't express to you howmeaningful it is that you are a
gift again, um, with Beth inthis season, um, six months ago.
I, I don't think she would havebeen able to read your book, but
she has.
She's taken back terrain, uh, inher heart and, uh, it's been a
(01:07:08):
real gift.
And so you have spurred that ononce again.
So thank you.
Thank you.
You've been a very healingpresence in our lives.
Adam (01:07:16):
you're welcome.
Thank you for having me on yourpodcast.
I enjoyed our conversationimmensely.
Adam, well, welcome to the podcast.
(00:02):
Beth and I have been lookingforward to talking to you about
this work that you've been infor the past several years and
are thrilled, thrilled that, um,that we get to have you on the
podcast to talk about such animportant book.
So welcome.
Adam (00:17):
Thank you.
It's a delight to be here to seeyou both.
Thank you.
Jeff (00:22):
And, and so we talked a little bit, uh, just before the
show, but this is not somethingthat you just wrote overnight.
This is something that you'veactually been painstakingly, uh,
writing over the past number ofyears.
I, what is it, what's it likefor you to take personal work,
(00:43):
professional work, and then tryto put something together that
you, I know that you carry atremendous burden and passion
for the sake of others to findhealing.
But to put that all into a book,that seems like a lot of
pressure, but it, I mean, it's aworthy venture because it's been
so helpful, uh, even to usalready.
So what was that process likefor you?
Okay.
Adam (01:24):
to be introduced to the idea that I had a story and that
the symptoms in my life,anxiety, depression, difficulty
with relationships, marriage,difficulties, difficulties with
God, that all of these symptoms,difficulties, being alone, just
with Adam, that these symptoms.
may be rooted in my story.
(01:48):
And by story, I really meanstories, plural, because all of
us have so many stories ofthings that we experienced
between the ages of zero and 18when we were with our primary
caretakers that havesignificantly affected Uh, the
way we see the world, the way weexperience the world,
(02:09):
particularly the way we relateto the people who are closest to
us.
So, it was, writing it was alabor of love to my younger self
and to, and to all the peoplethat want like a concise, clear,
Explanation of what we mean whenwe invite people into story
(02:31):
work.
Jeff (02:32):
Yeah, now you use a word there that I want to help
clarify because it's, it'sworthy of distinction.
The idea of story.
A lot of people, they might gosee a therapist and therapists
have been trained in all kindsof various modalities and using
different metaphors and analogyto describe what their processes
(02:53):
are.
But you're using the term storywork.
Can you define that for peopleso that they understand exactly
what you mean and how that'sdifferent?
Adam (03:02):
Sure.
Great question.
So if I were to have been askedas a 35 year old man, Hey Adam,
what's your story?
I would have told like a 30, 000foot overview of, you know, I
grew up in a family of five.
I have two twin brothers thatare two years younger than me.
My dad, uh, was a Vietnam vet.
(03:24):
Um, I had some emotional,physical abuse as a kid.
I was super close to my mom andI would have been able to put
some words.
To what I would call my story,but it would have been very high
level, very general.
And when we talk about storywork, what we're really talking
(03:47):
about is getting into theparticularity of, on the ground
level, telling of two, three,four of the formative stories.
That you may remember from yourgrowing up years and lots of
people have memories orfragments of memories, slices of
(04:09):
memories, portions of memories,and they dismiss those as quote
unquote, no big deal because theposture is that happened 30
years ago.
I don't see how that could stillbe affecting me today.
So, for example, When I was inmiddle school, I was ruthlessly
mocked because a rumor startedthat I shaved my legs.
(04:31):
I didn't have a lot of hair onmy legs as a boy.
I was later, a late developer interms of puberty and it was
brutal.
So I can tell you that storylike I just did or I could tell
you one of the stories.
of when it happened, who did it,where I was, what I felt, what
(04:55):
the sensations in my body were,what I did when I went home from
school that day after havingbeen humiliated in front of, you
know, my classmates.
And even now as I'm talking withparticularity, You can probably
feel the shift in your own body.
Jeff (05:12):
Yes.
Adam (05:13):
When we talk about story work, we're talking about
particularity.
I'm not talking about, I had analcoholic father.
I'm talking about, it was my10th birthday.
My mother was there, my friend,this is not my story, I'm making
this up.
My friends were there.
My dad got there late and hecame home drunk and he
(05:35):
humiliated me in front of myfriends at my 10 year old
birthday party.
That's a ground level, that'sthe beginning of a ground level
story, telling of the story withparticularity.
So story work is about theincidents.
It's about the scenes.
(05:56):
It's
Jeff (05:56):
Now, one of the things that what you're emphasizing
there and so just for ourlisteners, uh, Adam and I went
through some training with DanAllender back in the
Beth (06:09):
10,
Jeff (06:10):
000 years ago, probably 10 years ago.
Um, yeah.
And, One of the things thatwhere you were very helpful and
at times interpreting what I wasexperiencing through that
training because you had alreadydone so much work regarding the
brain.
What?
Why is it?
That when we get into theparticulars of story, of
(06:31):
retelling a story and gettinginto the details.
And I remember a story that Itook to that training and I was
walking through a neighborhood,but I only had shorts and a tank
top on.
And I was being invited to talk.
What did the grass feel like onmy feet?
What did the, you didn't haveshoes on.
What was it like walking milesin the Texas summer with no
(06:55):
shoes on?
Like, we were getting verygranular on what my experience
was like whenever I was thatyoung,
Adam (07:03):
Yes.
Jeff (07:04):
but that's part of the process, the healing process
here.
What, what's happening uniquelywhen we're telling specific
detailed stories?
What's happening in our bodiesand brain whenever we're doing
those things?
Um,
Adam (07:41):
Absolutely, but it also affects our bodies And the
nature of trauma is that itcauses fragmentation What is
fragmentation?
It's the separation of regionsof your brain from one another
and so the brain is a complexsystem.
Complex systems are more stablewhen they are differentiated and
(08:03):
linked both.
The nature of the grass underyour feet or the hot Texas
pavement under your feet, whenyou experience trauma, the
memory of the sensations Of thehorrific event, get separated
from your thoughts about theevent, get separated from your
(08:27):
emotions that you experienced inthe event, get separated from
the timestamp of theautobiographical memory of the
event, and all that stuff getsseparated.
In Christian language, it's theopposite of shalom.
Jeff (08:42):
Okay.
Adam (08:43):
Shalom is about integration.
It's about connection.
Brains function best when theyare high, the neurons in your
brain are highly connected withone another.
But when we have a traumaticexperience.
That stuff gets separated,fragmented, disconnected, which
(09:04):
is why 30 years later, you mightsee an expression on your wife's
face or a edge in your husband'svoice, and you are reacting to
that.
And you don't know why, and youcall it an overreaction, but
it's not.
You are responding to deeplevels of memory in your body
(09:29):
that his tone of voice or herfacial expression evoked.
Jeff (09:34):
Yeah, well, an interesting story just to illustrate this,
to kind of give it, make it realand live.
Um, Beth and I were in Floridathis week, Cocoa Beach, and
People kept recommending to usto go to the Ron Jon surf shop.
It's like the second largest RonJon surf shop in the United
(09:59):
States.
I guess there's another onecalled California.
And
Beth (10:02):
which we kind of laughed because if anyone knows
Jeff (10:05):
us, we
Beth (10:06):
both grew up.
In the middle of the UnitedStates.
Nowhere close to anybody in theworld.
We don't do beach
Jeff (10:11):
life.
So we're not,
Beth (10:12):
like, beach goers of any sort of imagination.
So we were like, really?
Like, you really think we shouldgo?
And we're like, alright, we'llgo.
You know, like, people say it'sone of those things you just
gotta check off.
And I'm like, okay.
So we go.
Jeff (10:24):
So we, we walk in, and We're doing this just to say
that we did it and we're walkingthe downstairs is the guy
section and we did I was like,hey, those are I need a new
swimsuit Which that that hadstory to it because as our
listeners know I had a heartattack I've lost a ton of weight
and I'm still in the process ofrecovering and living in this
(10:49):
new body that That would be acool one.
That'd be great.
And there's a button, a shortsleeved button up that, yeah,
that'd be great for you.
And I'm like, no, I'm not thatkind of guy.
I'm not the skater guy.
So that gets into all kinds ofstory work.
Well, we, we decided, okay, wegot to go upstairs.
(11:10):
And so we're going to go lookupstairs.
Well, we get up the steps andthen we take a left.
And the first section wasbathing suits, women's bathing
suits.
What happened for you then?
Beth (11:25):
I almost, I instantly kind of said, Why are we here?
We don't need to be here.
Like there's nothing here forus.
Like I was so annoyed.
Like, I don't want to be here.
This isn't my kind of stuff.
Like I was, I was
Jeff (11:41):
agitated and
Beth (11:41):
agitated.
Jeff (11:42):
So like right there, that's what Adam had just said.
Like, why are you reacting thisway?
Beth (11:48):
Which normally if people say that, then I get more
reactive because it's more like.
It feels like it's more, uh, whyare you, and that goes into
other story work.
Adam (12:01):
Yep.
Jeff (12:01):
Okay, we're, yeah, so now she's got memories of people
responding to her when somethingis happening, but they're
saying, I mean, what, what wasyour mom's line?
Don't be so dramatic.
So Beth's having an experienceand as we keep trying to walk
(12:21):
around, you're noticing likethere were bikinis there, there
were crop tops there, likeyou're picking up on specific.
Types of clothing
Beth (12:33):
and getting
Jeff (12:33):
more agitated.
Beth (12:34):
Yeah, but so growing up in kind of the 1980s Christian
focus on the family type of Erafor my parents you were not not
only were you not allowed towear anything of that sort To
even think you might wearsomething, you were bad.
(12:58):
So just to even be around it, itfelt like all of, um, that
culture was in the room with me,
Adam (13:08):
Yes.
Yes.
Beth (13:10):
did not want to participate.
Like, I didn't want to, I didn'twant to have to, let's say
caretake, really, this culturethat wasn't even physically
there, but I felt responsible.
To it in the moment and Ididn't, I didn't wanna have to
deal with it.
I would rather have not been atthe store than to have to face
(13:30):
that memory.
Jeff (13:31):
And then there's other dynamics to it as well, because
there was, it was expensive.
There was money involved and,and like,'cause we ended up
talking about this mm-hmmBecause you don't spend money
Yeah.
On this kind of stuff.
I dunno how to have fun.
basically, which was, that's areally big deal because it was a
new topic of conversation.
Four little younger Beths.
(13:54):
is dangerous because there areso many rules from an
Evangelical context.
Camp culture.
Be good.
Dress modestly.
Boys are over, uh, sexualized.
Girls are sexualized.
Beth (14:14):
Just go along to get along.
So what does my older brotherwant to do?
What do my parents want to do?
Like that's it.
Just to make them happy and thenyou don't go to
Jeff (14:22):
stores like this to buy stuff and have fun Even though
there was money in your family.
There was still always thisdon't spend money on yourself
Dynamic
Beth (14:30):
don't be selfish.
Don't be
Jeff (14:33):
so what what ends up happening is is that for?
Three hours?
Beth (14:39):
Maybe not that long, but yeah, at least two hours.
I was very dysregulated.
We go
Jeff (14:42):
out to dinner to go grab some pizza, which was pretty
good, and,
Beth (14:47):
but you're still feeling it.
And Jeff's like trying to askreally good questions and my, my
logical brain, right, my adultbrain could see that, that my
husband's wanting to engage inmy story, but the, what I would,
and you would, I, you'll have tofill this in, because I really,
I am interested in yourviewpoints on this.
(15:08):
What I would say is my avoidantattachment style, at the moment,
because we talked earlier abouthow I go back and forth between
avoidant and ambivalent.
My avoidant personality, orattachment, was saying, Why is
he asking me all thesequestions?
Like I'm about ready.
I'm being set up for something.
I'm gonna get caught.
I'm gonna do something wrong I'mgonna say something wrong and
(15:30):
then this is gonna go south andit did It did do that.
And then I'm spinning in mymind.
See I can't do anything, right?
I'm getting it all wrong now.
Now he's feeling bad now I'm youknow, and it and then I really
just went way offline into mytrauma response So having
(15:53):
complex trauma went into that,and so I'm really dysregulated.
Thankfully, Jeff, of course,knowing all that I'm going
through and working through andhave done his own work, he knew
where I was at.
He just hung in there.
But it definitely took some timefor that dysregulation to come
back to a, a place where myfrontal lobe was able to come
(16:18):
back online, and we couldactually have An adult
conversation versus little Bethybeing all dysregulated.
So, I'd love to hear.
Yeah,
Jeff (16:26):
so Adam, people who are listening, um, they know this
kind of experience and they stayquiet about it in their
marriages.
They're deeply ashamed of it.
They don't have any sense ofdirection, hope, understanding,
any interpretive grid tounderstand what's happening.
Tons of shame, tons ofpowerlessness.
(16:49):
So, Beth has used a number ofdifferent categories in
retelling that story, which arecategories that you're using in
your book.
Adam (16:58):
Yeah.
Jeff (16:58):
So how is it that your, this paradigm that you're
offering to people through yourbook, how is that, how can that
help someone like Beth, who isnew and maybe could find hope in
doing some story work?
Adam (17:14):
Yes.
Uh, well, first of all, thanksfor sharing the, that.
It's not a vignette.
It is a vignette, but it's fromyour life.
But it's not only from yourlife, it's from your very recent
life.
Jeff (17:30):
This was Thursday.
Yeah, it's Monday.
Adam (17:35):
that's such a gift to your listeners, just to hear the
story gives so many people thesense of, I am not alone.
I am not alone.
Beth had this experience.
Okay, so let's talk a little bitabout, I love the categories
that you've offered.
You found yourself in that surfshop remembering some really
(18:02):
unpleasant stuff, but you had nosensation of recall, so you
didn't know it was a memory.
You just had the bodilysensation of, I don't want to be
in the bathing suit area of thissurf shop.
Jeff (18:16):
Um,
Adam (18:43):
engages and that engagement alone stirred up even
more accusation inside and, andall my heart.
I mean, even as you werenarrating it, I was just like.
Oh, that was a hard couple ofhours.
Jeff (19:03):
It was,
Adam (19:04):
That was a hard couple of hours for your body because you
were remembering.
Jeff (19:14):
It's interesting the way that you just said that, Adam,
that it was not necessarilycognitive nor willful.
Adam (19:24):
No, it was automatic.
Jeff (19:27):
I mean, you've been in these circles, Adam, and you
know, like, there is a sense towhere it is sometimes
communicated, particularlywithin a Christian worldview, to
take a thought captive.
And,
Adam (19:42):
right.
Jeff (19:45):
and, and this is where, like, Beth, I know, is part of
the, the, the sorrow that shecarries is that she wants to
turn it off.
She wants to catch it quick andnot have to suffer for a few
hours.
Adam (19:58):
Sure.
Jeff (20:00):
And, but, and, but she doesn't even know that it's
happening.
Beth (20:03):
Or where it's coming from or, or how to stop it.
Adam (20:07):
right.
Beth (20:08):
a lot of times, like I said, is when you're trying to
engage with me.
Jeff (20:13):
Oh, I am, I am, your body is responding to, you're not
even responding to menecessarily.
No,
Beth (20:23):
well, I mean, in the past, before I realized I had complex
trauma, I thought I wasresponding to you
Adam (20:30):
Of course.
Beth (20:31):
because you're the, you're right here.
But then of course, reading yourbook, Adam, when you talk about
implicit and explicit memory, Iwas like, Oh man, this is making
so much more sense.
It's like, I am reacting toJeff, not because of him, but
because of what I went throughin the past.
(20:52):
But all I can see is that thisis my husband in front of me,
and so what makes me sad, andI'd love to hear your thought on
this, is that I would blame himfor what I was feeling in the
moment, because that's all Icould see or feel or experience.
I didn't understand that mystory Was actually what was
(21:13):
playing a bigger role in thatmoment.
Yeah.
Adam (21:32):
with your husband, and that although I'm sure Jeff was
not loving you perfectly, youwere very aware that what you
were feeling and experiencingfrom him was being filtered
through your past stories as agirl.
And that in that sense, you arereacting not merely to Jeff in
(21:53):
the present, but to your pastexperiences of trauma.
Jeff (21:59):
Right.
Adam (22:00):
And that is the nature of intimate relationships for all
of us who have trauma.
Jeff (22:07):
us.
Adam (22:08):
All of us.
There's no way out of that bind.
But, not everyone has thecourage that you do to
acknowledge it.
Because it can feel veryvulnerable to acknowledge that.
Because you're, you're takingresponsibility for your agony
(22:29):
that's stored in the cells ofyour body from years and years
ago before you even met Jeff.
And you're saying to Jeff, look,I'm feeling this from you, but
I'm aware that there are otherstories at play, besides what I
experience as your cruelty, oryour dismissiveness, or your
(22:51):
combativeness, or whatever itis.
And that is a, uh, the courage,the honesty, the loveliness of
that confession.
If we entered all of ourconflicts, With that awareness,
that alone would change thenature of the conflict.
Jeff (23:11):
Well,
Beth (23:11):
it did, like today.
It was a great example, and weshared a little bit of this
beforehand.
I was listening to your book,which I, I had an advanced copy,
and so I have Speechify, whichis an amazing app for people
like me who have a readingdisability.
So I was listening to your book,as I'm This
Jeff (23:30):
episode is sponsored by Speechify.
Beth (23:32):
Yeah, seriously, if you all It's a game
Jeff (23:35):
saver for Beth.
It's,
Beth (23:36):
uh, literally a game, a game saver.
But I was listening to it on theway to pick up my parents to
help them go to a doctor'sappointment.
I knew I was setting myself up,but like Jeff said later, no,
you were engaging your story.
You knew that you were learningabout how to engage your story
as you went to go engage yourstory with your parents.
(23:59):
And so then when I came home,what's, what's so wonderful is
that as Jeff, as we know, youtwo started your real journeys
of recovery about 10 years ago,Jeff has been on this journey
and What's been great is that asI've been able to see, oh wait,
(24:20):
this isn't about Jeff.
This is about the pain and thesorrow that I have not known or
been able to recognize or namein the past.
And so when I came home, I wasvery dysregulated and I knew I
probably was going to be andJeff's like, would you like to
talk about it?
And,
Jeff (24:41):
and some of that, I will say for our listeners, some of
the terms that you'll hear Bethuse are terms that we have
adopted To stay away from othershaming terms.
Beth came home upset.
That actually could be a veryactivating way to characterize
what's happening in her.
And so we've tried to come upwith terms that somehow help her
(25:04):
give her hope.
Like, something's happeninginside of me that I don't need
to be ashamed about and that Iadd to freedom to me.
Beth (25:12):
But it's also been helpful because what, so as I, again,
Okay.
I have a lot of avoidanttendencies.
When I got home, I knew that mywonderful loving tender husband
would know because he asked meto get him Starbucks.
And I was like, I just can't,I'm sorry.
(25:33):
You're going to have to makeyourself comfortable.
I
Jeff (25:35):
felt the text.
Yeah.
Beth (25:37):
I knew he would.
So when I got home, I knew hewould be curious and.
He would be there for me if Iwas willing, and I, I honestly
didn't know if I could or wantedto talk about it.
Adam (25:53):
Yep.
Beth (25:53):
I was fearful of my dysregulation, just like it was
in my family of origin.
They couldn't handle my beingupset or frustrated.
And so, Whenever I see you notknowing what to do with my
dysregulation or it frustratingyou or, or a lot of times me
blaming you maybe for it or youfeeling like I'm blaming you.
(26:16):
So I was like, Hey, I am reallyspun out, triggered, whatever
word you want to use.
And you were like, would youlike to talk about it?
And I was really scared.
And not because you're a scaryperson.
Jeff (26:31):
You literally said, I don't feel safe right now.
Beth (26:33):
And I, and I, of course I couched it saying.
But that's not because of you.
But not because of you.
And you said, you don't have tosay that.
But that was because you've doneyour own work.
And I do appreciate that.
But as I sat down and I startedexplaining what I experienced,
what I was going through.
Honestly, a lot of my sorrowright now is that I have been
(26:55):
unpacking my story and I'mseeing things.
That I didn't want to see orrecognize or know many years
ago, or as a child, and now Isee it and can name it, but I
don't, it's like, I don't knowhow to fully yet move through it
(27:20):
all.
Especially when you know thatmaybe your family, you know,
parents being older are able togo there.
And so having to love them, Imean, I love them, you know,
they're wonderful, sweet people,and we have a story.
And I have a story that I needto unpack and understand how it
(27:43):
affects me today.
But I don't have the capacity tounpack it really with them.
So you allowing me to unpack ittoday.
It was really, really helpful,and I was really afraid because
I knew my emotions were huge.
And in my family of origin, thatwas not okay.
(28:06):
Unless, unless you're happy.
Your emotions are big and happy.
That's okay.
Jeff (28:11):
Well, Adam, and this speaks to something that Beth is
alluding to.
We, we have a lot of reasons whywe don't want to engage our
stories.
Adam (28:23):
Sure.
Jeff (28:24):
For Beth, it's, I don't know how to talk to my sibling,
I don't know, my, my parents areaging.
Beth (28:32):
Well, I'm gonna keep the peace, I'm a nine.
And then there's,
Jeff (28:34):
there's, so there's, there's relational reasons.
Then there's personal reasons,there's personality reasons, and
just as an aside, I wanted tosay this, this is why we say
that each Enneagram type is likea Sherman Williams paint color.
You don't just go to buy a blue,there's a million blues.
Adam (28:53):
Yeah.
Jeff (28:54):
And, and like the particulars of your nineness
matter a lot more than just thegeneric, I'm a nine.
Beth (29:03):
Like your dad being a nine, we're so
Jeff (29:06):
different.
So different.
So different.
And your experience of it.
Your story of it is unique toyou, so just keep that in mind.
But, Adam, I mean, I, that's oneof the things that it, it, it
feels scary to engage thesethings.
But, and Beth has really, Idon't want to, I don't want to,
I don't want to feel this wayanymore, is what she'll
(29:26):
sometimes say to me.
What are some of the otherphrases that you hear from
people of why they don't want toengage their stories?
Adam (29:35):
Oh, yeah.
Woo.
Um, although it's notarticulated this way, Beth said
it really well.
She said, I didn't want to seewhat, what was true or I don't
want to see.
What what was true?
That's a big one.
I mean, it is very hard for usto acknowledge the truth of the
(30:02):
heartache of the devastation ofour lives.
And every no one escapes beingharmed in this world.
So even if you grew up.
In a family I want listeners toknow you don't have to
experience trauma to be able toexperience the healing power of
story work what you need to bewilling to do is to look at the
(30:24):
truth.
of what actually happened foryou as a boy or a girl in your
particular family.
Uh, another reason that peopleare reluctant to do this work
is, um, my parents did the bestthey could.
My parents are alive.
My parents, um, I don't want toblame my parents is a common
(30:45):
objection that I hear.
And we're not talking aboutblaming anyone.
There's a difference betweenblaming So blaming is a posture.
It's a pointed finger.
It's a posture of condemnationand naming is this is true.
Jeff (31:07):
Okay.
Adam (31:11):
of my relationship with my mother when I was in third
grade.
Like naming what was true.
Another way of getting at thatis it's simply in the, in
biblical language, it's cominginto the light.
Jeff (31:24):
Um, Silence.
Adam (31:40):
Uh, and it, and it can be very dysregulating and
unravelling.
It's this sense of, I've heardthis a million times, Adam, if I
go where you're inviting me togo, I will start crying and I
will never stop.
Woo, okay.
Well, I understand why you'rereluctant to go there then,
(32:03):
because you believe that if yougo there, you will start to
heave and wail and sob, andyou'll never get up off the
floor, and you need to be a wifeand a mother and a co worker,
etc.
And so that's an overwhelmingproposition for you.
And I get it.
I get it.
However, if it's the truth thatsets us free, Might there be
(32:28):
deep redemptive value in lookingat some of the core stories of
our wounding?
There's a passage in Jeremiah,it's in Jeremiah 6, it's
repeated in Jeremiah 8, whereGod gets mad at the leadership
of Israel because they dress thewounds of his people as though
(32:49):
they were not serious.
Peace, peace, everything's finewhen everything is not fine.
Sadly, many of us do that withour own wounds.
We say, peace, peace, that was30 years ago, I don't think it's
still affecting me today.
Uh, they did the best theycould.
Uh, they didn't mean to harm me.
(33:11):
Um, I was just overdramatic.
And we are dressing the woundswithin us as though they are not
serious.
And in my experience, in myopinion, uh, God longs for us to
take our wounds as seriously asGod does.
Jeff (33:30):
And one of the things that Beth has mentioned a few times,
uh, which is another Aspect ofnaming that's you as you read
through your book that help thatis very, very helpful.
And that's this idea ofattachment styles.
And there's all kinds oflanguage, different language for
different concepts, differentapplications of it.
(33:52):
I remember, um, you know,hearing about it at first for,
um, moms, uh, new moms ofnewborns, whenever they would,
they were talking aboutattachment and wanting to have
baby on skin, that kind ofstuff.
There was all kinds of, uh,conversation about attachment
styles.
And you've heard Beth mentionedabout being ambivalent or, um,
(34:12):
you've mentioned disorganizedand avoided.
Tell us a little bit about what.
What that part of theconversation means and how
that's related to story work.
Adam (34:24):
Sure.
Your, your attachment stylesimply refers to the way in
which your nervous system hasbeen wired to relate to the
people who are closest to you.
And so, uh, the essence ofwhat's called avoidant
attachment is that you grew upwith a dismissive, rejecting, or
(34:44):
shaming primary caretaker.
And as a result, whenever youexpressed emotion or longing, It
was dismissed.
It was shamed.
It was rejected.
It was shut down.
And by the age of 5, 6, 10, 15,you realize, I'm alone in the
(35:05):
world and there is not going tobe any interactive regulation of
my body and my big feelings.
I have to do that by myself.
There is no person in my world,mother, father, stepmother,
stepfather, who is willing to bewith me in my big feelings and
(35:26):
help me regulate them.
They're not interested in that.
And so what you learn is, I'vegot to regulate my body by
myself.
I'm on my own.
That's avoidant attachment.
The essence of what's calledambivalent attachment is that
you had a caretaker that wasinconsistent and intrusive.
(35:48):
By inconsistent, I mean theywere there for you one minute.
This is my story.
I'm an ambivalently attachedman.
My mother would be there for melots of times.
super there for me until shewasn't because she was too
preoccupied with her own trauma,her own feelings, her own needs.
(36:08):
And all of a sudden I wasutterly alone.
And the madness of thatuncertainty creates distrust in
the nervous system.
In other words, I grow up tobecome an adult and my felt
experiences.
Are you going to be there for meor not, Jeff, as my close
friend?
(36:28):
One minute you are, the nextminute I don't expect you to be.
Why?
Because that's how my nervoussystem has learned the world
works.
And so, in close relationships,people who are ambivalently
attached are often experiencedas needy or clingy.
Why?
Because I need constantreassurance that you're going to
(36:49):
be there for me.
You did it this morning.
Great.
But it's this afternoon.
Now, in contrast to those twotypes of attachment, there is
secure attachment.
And secure attachment is whenyou have an embodied sense of
hope that anytime there'srelational rupture, anytime
(37:12):
there's conflict, therelationship will be restored.
We will become closer throughthis.
It's inevitable and it's goingto happen soon.
And if listeners are listeningto that and they're like, I
can't imagine that.
Well, then you're not securelyattached.
And I understand it's hard forme to even imagine that.
(37:33):
But all of us can move frominsecure attachment styles to
increasingly to secureattachment.
That's the work of healing.
Jeff (37:43):
so I want
Beth (37:44):
to go there.
Okay, so I want to go there.
Because I have my own questionsabout that.
So, um, so we talked a littlebit before we got on.
That some will talk aboutdisorganized, how you can kind
of fluctuate between theambivalent and the avoidant.
So I'd love to kind of go there,but I also want to go to what
(38:06):
you're saying about that you canheal and find secure attachment.
The reason why I want to gothere is and what that process
looks like, because as you'resaying that, I'm like, yes,
because as I've been doing myown work and being able to see
Jeff.
For all that he really is, thatI have secure attachment with
(38:29):
him, all that I, all thatdysregulation was past story.
Now, I mean, of course we'remarried, so obviously there's
things that we've had to workon, but, but ultimately he is my
secure attachment, but I stillfelt the insecure attachment
struggles But now that I'mstarting the healing process, I
(38:53):
can, like, when we went to the,the Ron John store, as we were
in the car, there's part of mybrain that's like, doom and
gloom.
This is the worst.
I can't think of anything else.
And yet there's this part of me,this, it's almost like we're
watching the show Severance andit feels like my brain has been
severed.
Like I go into dysregulation andtrauma brain.
Adam (39:15):
Yep.
Beth (39:16):
But then it's like I'm reintegrating, I'm so into this
show, but it's like I'mreintegrating where I'm like
wait, no, I know Jeff and I,we're fine, like he's fine, he's
right there with me, he'shanging in there, he's not
allowing this dysregulation tothrow him off, off pace, I am
okay, he loves me.
And that, that these little,like, glimmers of hope come in
(39:39):
at the moment.
I'd love for you to talk about,because, because I still feel at
times helpless and hopeless.
Like, my story still feels attimes like it's going to eat me
whole.
Adam (39:51):
Yes.
Beth (39:53):
But then I have these glimpses of hope.
And so it's like this back andforth.
So can you walk us through that?
Adam (39:58):
Sure.
First of all, what you'redescribing is normal and natural
because you have neurons.
Jeff is giving you different,and here's the better word,
novel.
experiences for your nervoussystem.
Jeff (40:14):
Well, thank you, Adam.
Thank you.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna put that onmy, I'm a novel husband.
Adam (40:21):
so you come home dysregulated from your day.
This was two hours ago and youexpect your, by expect, I mean,
your nervous system has beenconditioned and primed to expect
Jeff to be disgusted with thefact that you are.
Overwhelmed
Jeff (40:42):
Right.
Not so much from him, but frompast.
Yeah.
Adam (40:45):
from past you've your neurons have been primed to
expect that the close people inyour life are not going to
welcome you in this state
Jeff (40:56):
Right.
Adam (40:57):
because you've had thousands experience of
experiences of that as a girlwhere you were called a drama
queen where you were cursed andaccused and named poorly.
But then, you risk letting Jeffknow a little bit, even in the
way you did the text.
You let him know a little bit,I'm not okay.
(41:21):
And that risk is, I think,properly named repentance on
your part.
You're doing something that you,that there's no reason you
should do.
Jeff (41:32):
I mean, that, well, I've not thought of it that way,
Adam, but she knew that thattext was risky because it was an
act of self care
Adam (41:42):
yes.
Jeff (41:43):
when she wanted to just care or go into codependency and
like, yeah, I'll do whatever.
I'll keep giving myself to makeyou happy.
And she said, no.
Okay.
Adam (42:10):
that?
In my opinion, you have a hungerin your gut for more, for more
vitality, for more freedom, formore goodness.
And there's, and that's almostunexplainable and inexplicable,
but it's beautiful and glorious.
And you risk with your husband.
(42:32):
Now, do you have experienceswith your husband of risking and
it going well?
Sure.
And you're building on those.
So the brain changes withnovelty and surprise.
But there has to be the risk ofsaying, Jeff, I don't feel safe.
Jeff (42:49):
Um,
Adam (42:49):
I'm not saying that you're an unsafe man, but right now,
I'm not feeling safe in my ownbody, and I'm feeling
dysregulated, and I don't knowwhat you're gonna do with me.
Like, those sentences are sorisky and so holy, and they're
giving your brain a differentexperience of the relational
(43:11):
world.
That's one of the ways, the keyingredients to the healing
process.
Jeff (43:20):
of the dynamic here, and we'll get into another topic
that's addressed in the book.
So in that moment, um, one,there is just kind of the fight
of, I want to stay present withmy husband and want to receive
his initiative, but my body'snot feeling it.
(43:44):
And so, so to say.
I don't feel safe, but that'snot because of you.
And I'm not sure I want to talk.
Um, I've got another greatfriend who, this guy has spoken
so dearly into my life, healways has privilege to speak
into my life, but he will alwaysask, um, can I share something
(44:09):
with you?
Before he shares something withme.
Um, but it, it's invitational.
And so, I've tried to mirrorthat with Beth.
But part of the difficulty whereBeth is at now is shame.
So, she's, she's identified thisattachment style.
(44:31):
It feels overwhelming as if, Oh,this is neurological.
Is this, like, never going tochange?
That's part of the negativeinner critic belief.
But then, she's also wanting toreceive in that moment from me.
And, so for her it's, thefeeling of shame of like, man,
even when my husband wants tooffer me intimacy and
(44:54):
connection, I don't have thecapacity to hold that.
Adam (45:00):
Yeah.
Jeff (45:00):
But you speak about kindness and the importance of
kindness, not necessarilykindness from other people,
kindness towards yourself,
Adam (45:12):
Yep.
Jeff (45:14):
which is, uh, and I, I remember when Allender, uh,
Quoted Paul that kindness leadsto repentance, and I have used
that ever since.
And I can't remember, I'mforgetting the artist's name,
but he actually wrote a songcalled Be Kind to Yourself.
Adam (45:36):
Andrew Peterson.
Jeff (45:37):
Yes.
I weep at the song every damntime I hear it.
Because I am, I, I'm not kind.
I, I, I walk now and my walksare, can be wearisome because my
hour long walks in the morningcan be fierce
Adam (45:57):
Yes.
Jeff (45:58):
of the lack of kindness.
How, how is it as a category ofhow we are to relate to ourself
of kindness important in doingstory work?
Adam (46:09):
Oh, uh, number one.
Top of the list importance.
Why?
You've already said it well,it's the kindness of God that
leads to repentance.
Very often, my posture towardsAdam when Adam is dysregulated,
(46:31):
because that happens to mefrequently as an ambivalently
attached man, My body gets intosimilar amped up places that
Beth's body was in just twoshort hours ago.
And when my body gets into thatplace, the question is, Adam,
how do you feel about that fact?
(46:52):
How do you feel towards the partof you that is scared right now?
Jeff (46:56):
Hi,
Adam (46:57):
What's your posture towards the part of you that's
feeling overwhelming shame rightnow?
Jeff (47:03):
of the
Adam (47:04):
ago, my posture was to say it's unkind was an
understatement.
I mean, it was just punishing.
It was, you shouldn't be afraidyou shouldn't, or you should be
more mature and shouldn't bedealing with this shame, or you
should be more mature.
You should have grown more.
(47:25):
You're an expert on this.
You have a podcast.
You should be further along,Adam, and not as affected by
that situation or by that personor by that email.
And you can hear, in my tone,the accusations.
Jeff (47:39):
Okay.
Um,
Adam (48:17):
that, in that moment, we can then ask this question.
What does my body need?
What does my heart need?
And what would kindness to mybody and my heart look like in
this moment?
Just asking that question, notknowing the answer, just asking
(48:37):
it, begins to unravel thestructures of evil in our lives.
And the answer to that questionfor me might be, I need my wife
to put her hand on my heart as Ilie down and rest.
answer might be, I need to puton the playlist of music that I
know soothes my heart.
(48:59):
The answer might be, I need totake a 10 minute walk around the
block and call a friend that Iknow understands me well and put
some words to what I'm grapplingwith.
In other words, I might need toreach out for care.
The, the answer is far lessimportant than asking the
question, what does kindnessmean?
(49:21):
Yes.
Look like to my heart and bodyright now.
That's what begins to get us outof the cycles of self contempt.
Jeff (49:29):
Well, I just hearing the way that you phrase that it, it
reminds me of those bigquestions of the Bible, like
Jesus, even asking the question,do you want to be healed?
Like it, I even asking yourself.
Like, because I've asked youthat question, what do you need
right now, needs to be askedwith kindness because you
(49:54):
quickly realize you've neverknown how to take care of
yourself.
Adam (49:58):
Yeah.
Jeff (49:59):
And there's, I mean, I, I think about our, the story of
our parents, we, we certainlyunderstood how to self medicate
and they trained us in thosestrategies, right?
But, but.
You know, how often did theyever take us aside when we were
(50:19):
spun out to go and coach usthrough how to process a
failure, a mistake?
Adam (50:26):
Yes.
Jeff (50:27):
Um, those aren't skills that we're necessarily taught.
Um, and even though we were, wehad the Enneagram and I was
going through all this training,I mean, we could talk to our
kids over and over again oftimes that we even missed with
them.
Um, And, you know, which becomeactually a model of those
(50:50):
conversations for them with ourgrandchildren.
Um, it, the, and, you know, itmakes me think there was a quote
by a missionary once, I don'tremember the missionary's name,
but Um, the quote that Iremembered, it was, Can you
strain infinite love?
(51:12):
Can you exhaust eternalkindness?
And so, to recognize that God'slove, His kindness, whatever
attribute you want to put inthere, is infinite, eternal, and
unchangeable.
Always
Adam (51:27):
Yes.
And always available.
But will I join it particularlywhen I am in need?
Like Beth was two hours ago.
Will I join it in those moments?
Jeff (51:41):
right.
Beth (51:43):
And I will say, for me, those are the moments.
I isolate
Adam (51:49):
Yes.
Yes.
And that's the nature of thebyproduct of trauma, is that we
tend to isolate in those precisemoments when we're most in need
of care.
Jeff (52:05):
Well, I don't, I mean, so I know that we've been kind of
leading the conversation andkind of through our own
experience, but what else aboutthe book that, what's something
that maybe we haven't coveredthat you'd want to make sure
that you highlight about howthis particular work can be
helpful for people?
So
Adam (52:32):
um, some words, some guidance, a path.
To exploring their own storiesand so the book is laid out, you
know, your family.
What if you explored your familyof origin story?
What if you explored your sexualstory?
We're all sexual beings and weall have stories of the
(52:56):
development of our sexuality.
And for many of us, thosestories have been unmind because
there's so much shame there.
But you you So much presumption,but your story matters to God.
And if it matters to God, willyou let it matter to you?
(53:18):
And if it matters to you, willyou write down one or two or
three?
Of the pivotal stories that youremember from your growing up
years.
So there's your family of originstory.
There's your sexual story.
There's the story that your bodyis telling you.
I have a whole chapter on that.
We are, we, especially of usevangelical types, we have to
(53:42):
come to terms with the fact thatwe're embodied creatures.
We are bodies.
Jeff (53:47):
We really don't quite grasp how significant our body
is.
It's almost, we are.
I mean, there's various forms ofthis and whether it be
Gnosticism or certaintheological traditions that de
emphasize the bodily parts ofwho we are as human beings.
Beth (54:09):
When you were, before we got on the show, you were
talking about one of thechapters in your book, Adam, is
about race and story of your ownrace.
Um, and for Jeff, you know,what's interesting is being
adopted, he didn't know hisrace.
You know, until, until we weregiven the privilege of meeting
(54:30):
his biological mom when he was30 to find out, you know, that
you are half Mexican, a fourthCherokee, and a fourth English,
and how that plays a huge rolein your story, one, because of
racism when you were younger,but also now for your health,
you know, with the diabetes andeverything, you know, there's so
(54:51):
much that plays into Jeff'sstory just on the racism.
And yeah.
Jeff (54:55):
When Adam was talking about sexuality and body.
One of the things that's beeninteresting, and I think you
experienced this about me aswell, is since I was a kid,
(55:16):
people have always reflectedback how strong I am.
And there were other boys thatenvied that.
Oh, if I were If I was as strongas Jeff, I'd be working out
more.
Jeff is lazy because he's notworking out more and yet he's so
strong or being overweight and.
(55:40):
Like I, I remember in collegefootball, my, um, body fat
percentage could, it never gotbelow like 12 or 13%, but there
are guys on the team that werein the single digits and there,
there was envy of that.
Now, I could also go over to thebench press and bench press over
400 pounds.
So there's something like it.
(56:03):
But there was ambivalencetowards this body.
Adam (56:05):
Yes.
Jeff (56:06):
after my heart attack, one of the things that came out was
how quickly my body responded.
Beth and I have talked aboutthis repeatedly where I never
got an infection.
I never had a reaction tomedication.
And my body responded when Iwalked and I pressed it with
weights and started to take careof it again.
(56:29):
It responded in kind in howgrateful I was that my body
responded.
responded because that's notalways given.
But there are beliefs, there areexperiences, like even Beth is
like, yeah, you, that's right.
Like you never got an infection.
You never had a blood clot.
You know, there was no reactionsto a medication that you had
never, that you had taken.
(56:51):
And it, it's just a part ofbeing married to Jeff and being
married to his body.
So all of that, I mean, it'sshocking to think of it, but you
bring up the race part too,because it, I remember sitting
with a diabetic specialist.
One of the criteria ofdetermining your, um,
(57:14):
inclination towards orpossibility of getting diabetes
is higher if you're of Hispanicorigin.
Adam (57:21):
Right.
Jeff (57:23):
But I grew up with very white, Texas, Caucasian family.
And so there's part of me that'slike, well, that's not me.
And then there's another part ofme.
It's like, oh no, that is me.
I just, and I carry that with meand I look at my family, my
biological family history.
And I'm like, yeah, this was.
all predictable because theywere experiencing all of these
(57:44):
things.
And so I, in some sense, I'm,I'm, I kind of, in, when I found
out that many of them struggledwith the same illnesses that I
do related to the heart and thediabetic diagnosis, I had to
grieve
Adam (58:03):
Yes.
Jeff (58:04):
and feel the sorrow and the weight of what my body has
been carrying.
Adam (58:09):
Yes.
Jeff (58:10):
That I wasn't even aware of cognitively.
And so I, you know, whenever Iget up to walk now, it's, it's
kind of, there's a certainsense, like we're, we're, we're
in this together.
I'm choosing kindness and careby going on a walk.
Beth (58:25):
Even on a day like today when it's 20 degrees.
Jeff (58:28):
He
Beth (58:30):
even said he was so cold afterwards.
It's like, I was wearing gloveswhen I was trying to work at the
computer.
I
Jeff (58:35):
couldn't, I couldn't, my body wouldn't come back.
Beth (58:38):
And I might as well close.
Um, you know, there's, like yousaid, everyone has a story, you
know, like I really did grow upin a pretty dynamic family and I
have a story,
Adam (58:50):
Yep,
Beth (58:50):
um, and I have pain.
So, there's going to be a lot ofpeople listening that are like,
wow, this makes sense, or maybeI need to step into my own story
work, but it's a big deal.
And it's a
Adam (59:04):
deal.
Beth (59:05):
And it's not easy.
Where, I mean, and your book isgreat.
So definitely get Adam's book,100%.
How else can they start doingtheir story work?
Where can, where should they go?
What should they do?
Give them some ideas.
Adam (59:21):
Sure.
Two places I know.
One is where I met your husband,Jeff, which was at the Allender
Center.
The Allender Center runs storyworkshops, which are four day
experiences where you bring astory that you write out and
it's engaged by a wise, trainedguide.
Um, and you, and that's abaptism into this work.
(59:42):
Um, the Allender center dot orgis the place you can go.
The Allender center dot org.
Um, another person that's doingwork in this area is Kurt
Thompson.
And he has, um, confession, whatthey are called confessional
communities where you can beginto explore your story, um, in
some depth for those people thatare like, Hey, I, I have a story
(01:00:06):
and I want to explore it moredeeply.
Um, if you can afford it, thereare lots of therapists or story
work coaches that are trained inthis work that will walk with
you into the details of yourstory.
(01:00:27):
And again, you can go to theallendercenter.
org, they have a find atherapist button for all the
people that have been trained inthis.
You can go to my websiteadamyoungcounseling.
com and I have a list oftherapists that have been
trained in this.
But there are increasinglyplaces where you can go and get
trauma informed story work care.
Beth (01:00:53):
Well, and also, if I can just say, also, Adam, your
podcast, if you can
Adam (01:00:58):
And my podcast! Yes, my podcast! It's called The Place
We Find Ourselves, and if you goback You know, there's like 150
plus episodes now, but go backto the beginning and listen to
especially the ones that grabyou, the titles that grab you.
And you can also listen to, Iinterview lots of people on the
(01:01:20):
podcast and they share a storythat they've written.
There's probably over 30episodes where some very
courageous volunteer comes on,reads one of their family of
origin stories, and then weengage it together.
And that's all available for youto listen to so that you can get
a sense of what does it looklike to tell a story and to
(01:01:40):
engage your story.
Jeff (01:01:43):
I, I'm mindful at the beginning of the recovery
meeting I attend, uh, they all,we always had this part of the
reading that says, if you'llcome to six consecutive
meetings, you'll start to comeout of denial.
And memories will return andrealize you may think it's too
(01:02:09):
overwhelming.
There are going to be all kindsof beliefs.
Uh, I, I can't say the truthabout my story because my family
doesn't allow me to name thetruth about my story.
And even though they may not bephysically present, they kind
of, the rule.
leads your life still.
So realize that it is, there ispatience, there's perseverance.
(01:02:32):
I do wonder, you know, Adam,when you think about for some
who might want to just grab thebook and start writing out
stories, what are someencouragements there?
And then maybe what are somecautions to give people if they
were to try to do this alonewith your book?
Um,
Adam (01:03:02):
kind of labor, like you can't do this work alone.
You can do some of it alone, butwe need each other to be named
well in the context of ourstories.
So we need other faces and othervoices to hear our stories.
I couldn't see Adam, the 10 yearold Adam, 15 year old Adam well
(01:03:28):
until there were other peoplewho heard me tell some of his
stories.
And then they said, Adam, thisis what I see in your story.
And it was like, Oh, I arrivedat a truth through the
experiences, reflections, faces,tones of voice of others who
(01:03:50):
heard my stories.
And so a word of caution wouldbe, you can do some of this work
by yourself, but you need otherpeople.
We all do.
Jeff (01:04:00):
It's shocking to me.
I mean, I, whenever I write astory down, a memory down versus
when I share it with anotherperson.
other person,
Adam (01:04:10):
Oh yeah,
Jeff (01:04:11):
which, which speaks to where, where the memory and the
healing needs to take place,like these happened physically
and embodied and need to behealed physically and embodied.
Uh, and so why it's not just ahead game of just remembering,
but it's actually experiencinghealing relationships and
(01:04:33):
letting our humanity be in, infull expression in that sense.
Beth (01:04:39):
Well, Adam, how can people, again, engage with your
work?
Let's start with your book, andthen, uh, social media places,
uh, email, and then maybe yourwebsite.
Adam (01:04:51):
sure.
The book's coming out March 4th.
It's called make sense of yourstory.
You can get it anywhere booksare sold.
Um, the podcast that I host iscalled the place we find
ourselves podcast.
It's available on all platformsand Instagram is at Adam young
counseling.
And my website is Adam youngcounseling.
(01:05:12):
com.
Beth (01:05:13):
Great.
Well, I cannot recommend more,your book, to everyone, and I
just, You know, just even froman immigrant perspective, I hope
that people will engage withyour book.
From the lens of their Enneagramtype because that's going to be
very informative and also Justto let people know that they may
(01:05:35):
not know that we've donepodcasts before we're around
trauma and type and I reallyrecommend people listening to
that if they're gonna do somestory work because we really
unpacked how each type Kind ofprocesses and goes through their
own sense of trauma and it'svery very helpful And I think
(01:05:58):
that's where a lot of our shamecan come from, you know for me
as a type 9, you know I'm like,oh, I've got to just bottle it
all up and make everyone happywhen oh, that's like the very
thing That's causing it to keepfestering inside so everyone
realize that your story in yourany room tide play a role
together and Unpacking that isso important Um, well, Adam, it
(01:06:22):
has been an absolute joy and adelight to have you with us
again.
Um, I know that we're going todefinitely have you back on our
podcast because we just lovetalking with you.
But thank you for taking thetime just to be with us.
But more importantly, thank youfor taking the time to write
this.
Even if it's just for me, itmeant the world to read your
book.
Thank you so much.
(01:06:42):
And
Jeff (01:06:42):
Adam, thank you.
You.
You were a gift to me duringthose training times, and I, I
can't express to you howmeaningful it is that you are a
gift again, um, with Beth inthis season, um, six months ago.
I, I don't think she would havebeen able to read your book, but
she has.
She's taken back terrain, uh, inher heart and, uh, it's been a
(01:07:08):
real gift.
And so you have spurred that ononce again.
So thank you.
Thank you.
You've been a very healingpresence in our lives.
Adam (01:07:16):
you're welcome.
Thank you for having me on yourpodcast.
I enjoyed our conversationimmensely.
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