December 25, 2025 • 48 mins
Part one of a two part episode covering dismemberment. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack talk about the Black Dahlia case that is back in the headlines again, as well as Ed Gein, and other dismemberment killers we have covered. Imagine opening your garbage can to bring it back up the driveway empty, but it is too heavy, open the door and see a foot! One of the many cases covered in this episode of Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Transcribe Highlights
00:01.14 Introduction - Dismemberment
04:20.66 The Black Dahlia case
08:32.33 Margins very neat, cut around midline
14:16.00 Books written by children of "killers"
18:55.24 Defensive Dismemberment
24:49.40 Trying to put distance between suspect and victim
30:15.74 What was the point of the Halderson dismemberment
35:15.67 Victim killed in bedroom
40:07.05 Opening garbage bin and seeing a foot
45:06.71 Schabusiness - Charged with Third Degree sexual abuse
47:43.87 Conclusion part one.....
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality times with Joseph Scott More. I'm not, by any
means the brightest guy in the world. I think that
a lot of it, Any knowledge that I have that
I've been blessed with, comes from repetition and being around it.
What I do you know for so long, you know,
(00:22):
you just kind of absorb it after a while. It
doesn't mean that you're that you're intuitively makes sense there,
intuitively intelligent. It just means that you can absorb information.
And my my area is very specific, okay, in death investigation,
(00:42):
And granted there are all kinds of subcategories within death investigation,
but for me, it always has been the best way
to learn things is to compartmentalize them, and I picked
them up. I was a big advocate when I was
an undergraduate in college of using index cards to run
through before I would do testing and that sort of thing.
(01:04):
I love that because it really made me learn the information.
But you know, that kind of breaking down of things
lending itself to absorption of knowledge. It's certainly a way
that we work in the Morgue. We don't just essentially
(01:26):
do all of our dissections at one time. We take
it peace by peace and learning from each individual element
of the human body what we can to try to
arrive at a cause and ultimately a manner of death.
(01:48):
But you know, there are people out there, and we've
talked about them on the show, who do their own
compartmentalizing of human remains. They break them down into various
elements and also for various reasons, which we're going to
discuss today. Today we're going to talk about the five
(02:13):
the five types of dismemberment that we come across in
the field in forensic science, in medical legal debt investigation.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bats and Dave,
you know you can verify this. I had already mentioned
(02:37):
to you that I wanted to do this going into
the end of the year, that because we've talked so
much about dismemberment, I kind of wanted to cap this
thing off relative to what we're trying to do when
we bring these cases, and just to go ahead and
get this out of the way. I do, in fact
believe that there is an uptick in the number of
(02:59):
dismemberments that are covered in the news. I can't scientifically
verify that. Hopefully I can, maybe I can get my
graduate assistant on that and start collecting some data. But
people dismember for all different reasons. But the reason I'm
saying to you I need you to validate upfront that
I had already said this to you maybe a week
(03:21):
or so back, that I wanted to do this episode
Body Bags, because just yesterday, without any prior knowledge, there
has been an article that has dropped that where it
is that, I think it was in the Post, I'm
not sure. I think it was in the Post and
maybe the Daily Daily Mail, Elie Times, where they are
(03:45):
now saying that there is a connection between the Black
Dahlia and the Zodiac Killer. Now I'm not here to,
you know, to talk about those cases necessarily, particularly the
Zodiac because I don't know that that'll ever be solved,
and certainly at this distance in time, I don't know
(04:08):
that the Black Dahlia case, but it's one of the
first cases I think that many people ever heard about
where there was and really made a big splash where
there was a dismemberment. Well, and it was a very
particular kind of dismemberment.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
In the case of Elizabeth Short, who was the Black Dahlia.
If you remember Joe, this case, we have on this program,
talked about how b roll footage for television and pictures
actually means a lot about getting coverage for a case.
There are always there are always cases. I don't want
(04:43):
to knock any missing person's case or death or anything
like that, but I'll give you an example, John b
and a Ramsey. She had Granted, she's a child who
is found dead in her own home. They thought she
was kidding. I mean that whole story. But the reason
it caught the attention of the world was all the
b roll video that was shown every time they mentioned
(05:06):
the case. Here we go, we got the girl on stage.
We've got her dancing, We've got her you know, trust up,
wearing makeup and all that at five and six years old.
And as newspeople cover stories, they look for that. They
look for things that will make their story stand out,
whether it's the producer trying to make your leg up
on the next gig or whatever, and so that actually
(05:26):
matters in the coverage that happens, especially when a story
is static, meaning there's no new information coming out. In
the case of Elizabeth Short, the very first time I
ever saw the story, Joe, it was photos, pictures taking
at the scene of this dismembered woman and how her
body was positioned in pieces, and the description of how
(05:49):
her body was found and people were walking you know,
you are talking about in the post World War era
of it was after World War two.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right, forty yeah, it was forty second.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But Elizabeth short her she was called the Black Dahlia
because she was seen by a woman walking with her
child and a stroller and by others before the police
were ever called. And you had a newsperson with his
camera taking photos as police arrived on the scene.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
So before any official photos were taken of this victim,
they were already produced. They were already going through the film,
you know, and getting it on the paper the next day.
So that story gained a lot of momentum because of
the physical description and the pictures that fit that. Because
no matter what you say, a body that is dismembered
(06:49):
and is sitting in grass for all to see is
a shocking thing, no matter who you are or where
you are. It's not something we ever expect to see
in our life.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
No, it's not. And can you imagine this, this mother
pushing you know, her her baby down the street, and
this is kind of a and this is a weird
thing to say now, an undeveloped area of Los Angeles.
It was like and when you take a look, you
can actually see where I'm not going to say that
things had been you know, that things had been stubbed,
(07:22):
you know, ready to build a house over them, relative
to plumbing and all that, but it looked like that.
You could tell where sidewalks had been poured and and
so forth and so on. And her body is laying
that out there, and she, Elizabeth Short, had been bisected
and bisected here obviously by too. And again this goes
(07:43):
to the the process of dismemberment. She's cut across it
if you just think about it in the well, if
she's standing up, she's cut in the horizontal plane or
you know, around her equator of her body. Okay, and so,
and when you see her, her arms are actually bent
(08:05):
at the elbow and over her head, palms up. Her
legs are spread, which I've actually seen that before in
a series of serial killings where the legs were always
spread apart. It's like it's like a humiliation kind of
thing that's going on, and you know, you're literally laid
(08:26):
bare before the world and in the margins, the margins
of the incisions were very very neat What do you
mean you say margins? The margins like where the dissection
actually took place. So when she's cut in this kind
of equatorial position around her midline, there's not like, you know,
(08:47):
how we'll get these cases and we'll talk about them.
It's like, you know, if somebody had done this like
in a fever, they were using all manner of tools.
This was very specific, all right, And this this goes
to someone that that you know, I hate to use
the term training, but it was someone that had a
certain level of comfort and probably privacy, and most important time,
(09:10):
very little blood left in the body, so that gives
you an indication the body had probably been drained. And
here's something else. Did you know that her bowels were
actually neatly tucked beneath her body as she was laid out?
I don't know, right, yeah, but when you look at
(09:30):
her body down the long axis, so if we're standing
at the top of her head, looking down the long
axis from the top of her head to her feet,
did you know that the body is actually offset, which
is really weird, like.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
The lower to I'm sorry, it's on purpose.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I don't know. You went to the person that did this,
went to so much trouble to do a need incision
or a bisection, actually taking the body completely apart, but
yet you don't take the time to align the body.
The body is kind of offset. Now you know, I'm
not caring with a c stark out here. I can't
(10:07):
sit here and as a forensic psychologist, which I ain't
and don't want to be, I can't sit here and
tell you what kind of profile this person had. However,
I can tell you that the body is obviously askew
the other thing, and I find this fascinating. We'll talk
about movies in just a second, but when you think
about her body, I think about the Batman with Heath
(10:33):
Ledger in it, because she actually had a smile cut
into her face. Her face was actually was just so
disfigured and it goes from the corner of her mouth
up just turning up, and I swear, Dave, it looks
just like the smile that Heath Ledger had in the
Batman movie, which to me, in that canon of movies
(10:55):
is probably the best. Heath Ledger was incredible as a joker,
and I think very disturbing, but you know, just that
was carved into her face, and I wonder if if
they got that idea and reflect that. You know, you
and I talk about movies every now and then on
the show. I got to tell you there was a
movie that came out in two thousand and six which
(11:17):
was directed by De Palma, and it was a complete
dumpster fire. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was
in that movie. I was really really hoping that it
was going to be one of these things that really
knocked our socks off, and it was a dumpster fire
with really bad smell to it. I don't know how else.
But interestingly enough, going back to the Zodiac connection, David Fincher,
(11:43):
who did I think he did seven? He was slated
to do that movie. He didn't do it. He's the
one that winds up doing the Zodiac movie, which was fantastic,
that had Jake Gillenhall in it, and that movie was
was actually even though you didn't see like a slash
(12:04):
or anything, it was quite terrifying.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
All right now, Joe, what is happening now? And we
did talk about this. You and I talked about the
Black Dahlia story. Like last week, and for there to
be some movement on this story now this week and
today it's all over. I'm surprised at a connection between
(12:26):
the Zodiac, which is predominantly San Francisco, northern California exactly.
You have, you know, the Black Dahlia, which is one
murder case in southern California in the you know, in
a neighborhood in the forties, residential neighborhood in the south
part of Los Angeles. I guess I'm trying to figure
out based on a number of things that have been
(12:51):
said about the Black Dahlia case. There's a man who
has written a book about his father, believing that his father,
who was a surgeon, actually was the murderer. And he
has this whole thing cooked up where his dad got
her home and I say, just drain it over blood
in the bathtub kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah. No, And I actually went off. There's a tape
of me on YouTube, I think, and I was on
with Vinnie Politan on h l N years ago, and
I don't know if it's the same guy, but I
go off. I was. I was actually I did a phoner.
I was nowhere and they said we want you to
comment on this book that's just come out. I said, oh,
I'll be glad. It was says, if you've got this
(13:32):
much information. At that time, there were still a lot
of family members that were alive. I guess there still
are of Zodiac victims. If you've got this information, get
an attorney, go to San Francisco, to the PD and
these other associated and get in their face and say,
I've got this information. What can you do with it?
Was let's get some resolutions for this. It just seems
(13:54):
so mercenary for me. Yeah about it, Yeah, because my
daddy did it. And then of course I get these
responses like, well he made an attempt to go to
the chief of Police of San Francisco. Yeah, well nothing
ever came of that, you know, because there was supposed
to be DNA connectivity. But with this case, what they're
saying now and again, this is another amateur sleuth that
(14:16):
has come on to this thing. They're opining that this
case in particular is connected to the Zodiac. And the
one suspect is a guy that was a combat medic
in World War Two, okay, and that he had some
disturbances and this sort of thing, and he had gotten
(14:36):
into fights and was really unbalanced, and so he actually
winds up changing his name because they were initially looking
at him as a witness into Black Dahlia. And eventually
he changes his name and bounces out of town right
and abandons like his family and everything else. Well, he
makes his way back to the Bay Area. I think
(15:00):
in the early sixties. I might be way off here,
but that's kind of how the story is going, makes contact,
I think with his daughter maybe again, I don't really know,
and he essentially has gone off his nut apparently and
involved himself somehow in these so called Zodiac killings. And
(15:22):
I still don't know that there's substance proof that these
kind of interlaced that what they have said or interlaced
cases are actually connected. I don't know that there's ever
been positive proof that that, you know, that actually happened was.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
In the Zodiac, similar to Berkowitz, you know, shooting couples, and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, there was the elements of that. You had the
one cab driver that was like, what's that area that's
like really really ritzy in or used to be in
in Is it spy Spyglass Hill or whatever. It's like
a naghtor I can't remember that. I love Samrich, I
used to love San Francisco, but he was shot of Cabby.
He was shot. He was a single that was shot
(16:02):
there in his car and they had the lovers on
lover Lane, the lover's lane. Then he varies and attacks
this young couple out by lake with a knife, right,
you know that sort of thing, kind of change. But
with those cases there was this is a big standout
to me. There was no dismemberment.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So I was going to ask you, yeah, I don't
remember anything ever being And yet the Dahlia is a
one off. You know, we don't have another case in
southern California within that same time frame where anything like
what happened with Elizabeth Short was reported as happening again.
And somebody who would go to this great effort to
(16:38):
present the body in such a way where the sharp
where it wasn't an amateur or wasn't somebody who didn't
know what they were doing cut up her body. Right,
you were talking about how her body was positioned a
little off center, but still the cutting was professional or experienced. Yes,
straining of the blood was experienced. I mean, there was
a lot going on with that one. Body. And it
(17:01):
doesn't seem like people start at that level. It's like
they grow into that level.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Right, And a corpse is a corpse, you know, like
if you can turn someone by your own hand into
a corpse, in other words, kill them that body. That body.
People love to throw the round the term around objectification
all the time, and they use it, I think incorrectly.
(17:29):
This is truly the epitome of turning turning a person
into a doll, if you will, and breaking that person
apart by any means necessary. But it fits this case,
does at least the black dolue fits into one specific category.
Some of the stuff I'm going to reveal might just
(17:49):
shock you. I hate the white question, but dismemberment is
one of those things where you'll get that a lot.
(18:13):
Why why why would? And I think that it's one
of these things that people cannot take the measure of,
Dave because they it's so foreign, because it's so grotesque
and over the top. And you and I have spoken
about this in the past where you know, I'll say it.
(18:35):
It wasn't enough just to kill the person. You've got
to go another step deeper into evil here. And so
with that said, I felt that it was incumbent upon
us to kind of to kind of talk about, you know,
some of these some of these cases, and you know,
the first the first stop along the tour here is
(18:57):
something that's called defensive of dismemberment. And most of the
time this is more of a this this is dismemberment
is used. It has specific utility. In other words, you
can't you cannot move the body. You have to do
(19:20):
something after you have killed an individual, to fragment or
to parse up or however you want to frame it. Uh,
you have to break this body down into elements just
to make it manageable. David. Some some of these cases,
these people can be rather rotund because that's very difficult
(19:42):
to manage. Or there's a reason they call it dead weight.
And what's you know, really kind of ghastly about this.
Dismemberment of a morbidly obese person is particularly nasty business.
And there are a multiplicity of reasons why. But it
(20:02):
just it takes it to a whole new level. But
I think if I remember correctly, Dave, there was a
case that you and I and it wasn't so much
this case. It was out of Oklahoma. This case had
anything to do with you had somebody that was morbidly obese.
(20:26):
You had and you and I were both shocked by this.
I remember when we laid this down, we had multiple
people that were dissected. Dave. I know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And when you're talking about four men, Okay, immediately, I'm
gonna be honest with you, that shocks me. And I
don't think it should shock me anymore than any other
group of four that were found dead and are pulled
from a river. But Joe, the fact that we've got
four men and they were all very young, and I
mean we're talking twenty nine, thirty and thirty two, that
(20:59):
just tells you a lot about the men who were killed,
But it doesn't tell you a whole lot else. Show
are police chief there at the time, his name of
Joe Prentiss, and he actually said at a news conference
all four bodies were dismembered before being placed in the river,
(21:19):
and that is what caused difficulty in determining identities, and
that's why it took so long. So do they know
where they all killed at the same time, in the
same place and then taken out in a job boat
and tossed over the sidelight.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Chum that's an excellent question, and there's not too much.
You know, there's not a lot you know, in a river.
River is going to act. You know, in some landlocked
place like Oklahoma where this took place, river is going
to primarily be used to disguise a body, all right,
(21:54):
because there's not It's not like you're going to the
Everglades or South Louisiana. You know where you got the swamp.
Crawfish will feed on bodies. Most lakes, most ponds and
creeks and rivers in that area of the country have
got plenty of crawfish, and there might be as the
body begins to soften, you can have other scavengers that
(22:18):
might come along, like catfish. Probably to a certain degree.
Other species might feed on bodies, but you're not going
to have kind of the wholesale total disruption of the body. Now,
the aquatic environment is going to break break these bits
(22:38):
down quicker because the body is in fact dissected. If
I'm not mistaken, was it in this particular case. I
can't remember the the guy used tools in this and
it seems like they were power tools. I'm not mistaken.
And what had happened is the perpetrator in this case,
(22:59):
coftees fell stealing from him and he owned like a
junk yard or something like this. And what's really weird
is these guys had showed up on bicycles to do this.
That kind of stood out in my mind as what.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It does because you're dealing with you know what, if
you're twenty nine years old, thirty thirty two and you're
riding a bicycle, Yeah, everybody does that when they're seven.
Not when you're thirty, unless you're mountain biking or in
a race for something. Unless you have you don't just
tool around town or.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
If you live in London or New York, right, you know,
but not in rural Oklahoma and I can't. And these
guys were these guys were big guys, and you know,
they were like outdoorsy kind of guys. A couple of them,
they're they're they're they obviously used you know, the news
media use these images of these subjects wearing like utility
worker vests. These guys or like they were road crew.
(23:50):
These guys had worked out, they were hard workers, you know,
or worked you know, worked in the real world. Uh.
They both got those kind of farmer tans. Going on
in this sort of thing. But apparently this guy thought
that they were stealing from him. And you know, I
remember after this guy facilitated this, and I remember telling
you at the time, there's no telling what type of
(24:12):
instruments this guy had because he ran he ran a
junk yard, and you know, you if you're doing dealing
with things like scrap metal, there's all kinds of ways
to break up bodies. But this is going to be
a defensive dismemberment because he's trying to put as much
distance between himself and these bodies as he can. He's
got to do something to dispose of them. When you
(24:35):
begin to think about, you know, what am I going
to do with with four grown men and their bodies.
What's kind of odd about this is that even after
this had done, he went to all the trouble to
dissect the bodies. I guess he's sitting around wringing his hands,
because he bolts. He hops in a car and drives
off to Florida. At this point in time. Of course,
(24:56):
they eventually catch this guy. But you know, one more
point I'd like to make about this case is the
fact that when they're trying to put these bodies back together.
You've got four guys that probably all approximate the same size.
And when you take four bodies and let's just say
(25:18):
they're all bisected, okay, which just means cut in two.
I think that there was probably more extensive cutting than that.
You still have to put pieces together to make them match.
And it's not like it's some kind of toy set
where it's you insert slot B into slot A and
you've got a connection with this piece. It's not like
(25:38):
that because you're having to scientifically connect them together, which
can be problematic. But in this case, you've got an
individual that used the facility of his location in order
to make this happen and try to get as much
distance between him and the bodies. It's because many people
(26:02):
will essentially kill people and not put distance between themselves
and leave them around. This guy made an effort to
get these bodies away from him, and it's still the
wheel still came off, Dave.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You know interesting you use that term because they never
located the bicycles that these four men took out of
the house. You know, they'd leave one of the family
member's homes and all four of these adult men go
tooling at nine o'clock at night. Down the road, they
end up at Joseph Kennedy salvageyard where they're up to
no good. And by the way, police got this information
(26:36):
from a fifth man who was invited onto the crime spree,
and he's the one that went to police. I don't
know if he came to them after they went missing,
before the bodies were found, don't know, but they did
have an insider that came up and said, hey, they
were stealing stuff and I was invited, but I didn't go,
or I'd have been in there with them. And that's
(26:56):
how they were able to tie this together. Because if
you just find body parts floating in a river, you know,
that's a that's a tough sell. And you mentioned Kennedy.
Joseph Kennedy takes off, you know, for Daytona, Florida, which
is where they got him, and they rested him there
in Daytona, Florida, and had to at Daytona Beach and
had to actually extradute him back to Oklahoma where he
(27:17):
was formerly charged with four counts of first degree murder.
And they never I don't think they ever found the
gun that he shot them first. Okay, he kills them
with a gun. Then he dismembers them.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, because you can't. What's he going to do. He's
going to try to knock each one of these guys
in the head with a ball pen hair. You have
to do this quickly in order to knock these guys
down and take them by surprise. And you know that,
you know that that goes into the elements of what
would be the motivation. Because I don't know about you,
but I've had things stolen from me and I do
(27:53):
have rage. I'm sure you've had rage. When you've had
things that have stolen from you, you have anger it,
you know, on the surface, it does make you, I think, aggressive,
But it's not the same as the second type of dismemberment,
which is actually referred to as aggressive dismemberment. Now, you know,
(28:16):
how do we kind of break this down with aggressive dismemberment,
which is number two along our continuum here of dismemberments,
it's the second most common. It's most of the time
it is there is a little fire that's burning within
somebody where they are angry over probably a protracted period
(28:42):
of time. They might see themselves as failure. They might
not want to be held accountable for something horrific that
they have done. And I say horrific, that's not the
correct word. Let's just say that. In the case of
(29:02):
Chandler Halderson out of Wisconsin, his whole thing was he
had been lying to both his mom and dad, Dave
for a protracted period of time, deceiving them, you know,
trying to you know, trying to make them think that
he was out in the job market, that he's working,
and they're confronting him about this, and all of a sudden,
(29:24):
this kid snaps. You have to think that, you know,
it was his motivation, anger and laziness, you know, and
that one moment that he decided to put ford motion
into his life. He didn't do it in the area
of studying to improve himself or whatever. I know what
(29:44):
I'm going to do. I'm going to kill my parents
and then I'm gonna you know, split them up into
pieces and try to get rid of their bodies.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Dave, and he actually, I had to cover this case. Yeah,
I think you run it a lot too.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was, and I was.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
We spent a lot of time looking at the case
piece by piece literally to try to determine what really
was going on here because I think sometimes when we see,
especially a child that attacks parents, we try to think
was there something underlying? Was there something else here? Because
for us we think there has to be something more.
(30:26):
It couldn't really have just been that he had been
lying for so long and he knew he was caught
and they were going to cut off funding his lifestyle.
You know that he was the jig was up, and
now he's left with, well, if I kill them, I'll
get all their stuff and live my life. You know,
that's where we get stuck with that sometimes because we
have to we in our own minds have to figure
(30:46):
out why would anybody do this? Yes, and there is
no rhyme or reason to it. It really makes no
sense when you've got a young person that chooses this
path as a decision they think is a good way
to go about life right now for them and their parents.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, and I think that he you know, I guess again,
this goes to motivation and it's not necessarily my Bailey Wick.
But when you see what he did to their bodies,
he's got them, you know, he's got He's got them
in multiple pieces, and he's you can tell that he's
(31:23):
kind of frenzied because he's trying to decide how he's
going to divest himself of his parents' remains. Can you
imagine being that? Well, I don't think you can. Hopefully
you can't, but hopefully neither can I. But all of
a sudden you're faced with kind of eye popping situation
where it's like, oh, okay, I've literally pulled the trigger
on my parents, and what am I going to do now?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Multiple gunshot wounds, you know, yeah, they did it was
a hunting accident. You're not you know, you're not out
hunting with Dick Cheney. You can't say it was an
accident right to your parents. They've got multiple gunshot wounds.
So your next best choice, I mean, think about it.
The best choice this guy had made led him to this.
So we're not dealing with a mental or mature individual.
(32:06):
We're dealing with an idiot who chose one idiot action
after another. Man. You mentioned frenzied in his way of dismembering. Yes,
how would that be different in terms of what you
would see as you're looking at the I hate to
make it sound like you're putting a puzzle together, but
I would imagine that's what you're doing trying to figure
out everything.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, you are you. You're in a situation where I
think that you cannot. You don't your brain is not
ordered to the point. And this actually goes, I think
to the fact that he's not some psychopath, because a
psychopath could actually sit there and think about very in
(32:46):
a very ordered manner. If they're going to do this,
this is you know, part A, Part B, Part C.
That's not what he did. He even attempted to burn
the bodies in in the I think, in the fireplace
in the home. He winds up distributing the bodies at
(33:07):
a cabin that was up the road, you know, from
the family home. And you know, he's lied about what
became of them. Where did they go?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
He's the one that reported him missing.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and if I remember correctly, he walked down the
road to neighbors' houses and asked them, have you seen
my parents? And the one thing that really stands out
to me is there's that that one woman they had
a video of her. I don't know if she had
her phone out or whatever it was, she let him
in her house. And this is in the wake of this,
and he's like I'm just here looking for my parents.
(33:43):
Can you help me? And I'm thinking, oh, my lord, boy,
did she dodge bullet? This case, Dave, and I don't
know if you remember this, but this case is not
too dissimilar from one other one that was an aggressive
dismemberment and it was the two women. It was a
(34:03):
daughter and a granddaughter. And this was in Maryland.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Oh yes, I remember, in the basement, yeah, yeah, where
the daughter had killed the grandmother and they they had
used or she had used a chainsaw and made her daughter.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Act as a lookout to see if the sisters of
grandmother were going to show up. And what makes this
so I think that this was again another aggression related
kind of thing with the dismemberment, what are you going
to do? Because they tried this is the part that
got me. Not that the rest of it with a
(34:43):
chainsaw and everything doesn't get me. But they tried to
render her down on a barbecue grill in the backyard. Yep.
And again that goes to you this anger. There's no
honoring of the dead here. And actually she retained the
body parts. They were in the basement, in the basement,
down down in the house where she had actually been killed.
(35:03):
She had been killed up in her room, and so
there was a lot of blood deposition. You've got a
chainsaw that generates high velocity blood deposition almost looks like
high velocity gunshot wounds, and it would be everywhere. One
of the most messy undertakings that you can possibly have.
(35:24):
But you know, we've left you with two at this point,
we've still got, believe it or not, three more different
types of dismemberment to go hold on to your hat.
(35:52):
We've had this discussion going Dave about the types of dismemberment,
probably one of the most chilling ones that you know,
they're all chilling by their own right, but there is
there is a type of dismemberment that is out there
that actually drives a person. It's I think that that
(36:15):
the actual dismemberment of the body is the end game.
It's the thrill of it.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Because there is a sexual connotation. I think that even
if you look perhaps back at the Gainsol Ripper, you
know that the movie screen was based on there was
a sexual element to that. I believe. I believe there
were at least one, maybe two. I can't recall. My
brain's foggy right now, the decapitations. But you know, with
(36:48):
with with offensive dismemberment, there's an element that they believe
that is sexual in nature. The person probably has a
taste of sadism. That's part of who they are. It's
part of the person that they are. The you know,
the case I think that first came to mind for
(37:10):
me and I mentioned this case a lot because it's
so horrific is the murder of Ingrad Lynn up in Seattle,
you know where she had been on a dating app
and you know, she was a nurse, had two small kids,
had a good relationship with their ex husband. I think
the ex husband was Yeah, she was gorgeous, had you know,
(37:31):
the ex husband had the kids, so she could go
out on a date. They went to a Mariner's ball
game in Seattle, and they being the person that she
hooked up with on the dating app, David, This this
did not end well.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
John Robert Charlton was his name. Yeah, takes the right
to us a Seattle Mariner's game. What a great first date,
you know if you're.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
That's I, Hey, nook, I got to say that was
mine and Kim's first date.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Man.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
We went to see the Toronto Blue Jays in interleague
play against the Braves. Wow, it took her on a
Friday night. Yeah, I'll never forget. It was nineteen ninety eight.
John Smoltz pitched and he lost four to Oh.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Wow, you should have never gone out with her again
after that. I'll come on at any rate. So Charlton
takes her out and they go on this date. And
you mentioned the ex husband watching the children so she
could go on this date, which is there are a
few people that I know, thankfully, who have survived the
divorce and maintained a good relationship for their children, and
(38:35):
that's what they were attempting to do. Which that tells
me a lot about the person we're talking about here
in Ingrid's case, because it takes a certain intestinal fortitude,
but others first, and to put herself in a position
with this person she doesn't know, and to go to
a very safe first date in the ball game, she's
(38:56):
reported missing the next day and she's last seen, you know,
going out on the date. The thing that got me
about this one, and you might have to correct me,
because wasn't it a homeowner?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
That had because Seattle being what it is, not knocking
and my sister lives in Seattle and she's a school teacher.
But my sister they have they have cans, you know,
between recycling and not recycling, and boy, if you put
the wrong thing in the wrong can, you're in trouble.
And that's what came to mind on this, because this
(39:34):
had something to do with the recycling that caused this
neighbor to look and go, hey, this ain't mine. I
didn't put this here.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, he went out there and goes to you know,
when if you live in a city that does trash
pick up and you go you put your ben out
by the road, when you go to pull it back in,
you don't expect it to still be heavy. No, okay,
So this guy is pulling the trash ben back in.
(40:04):
It's heavy. He's like, what is this? He opens the
lid up. If I remember correctly, he's staring down at
a foot yes and yeah. No, it's one of the
most horrific things.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And here's where my mind went. Yeah, when we first
had this, Joe, my first thought was, Okay, the case
is broken because this homeowner, because the homeowner had the
body was in his trash hand as he's pulling it
back up. If the killer had been a couple hours
or minutes earlier. Yep, she would have been in the
(40:38):
trash and nobody would have known.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
No, I'm so glad you said that, because that's indicative
of a tom Stamp relative when that particular remain was
placed in there. So you know that he must have
deposited this after the trash run had taken place, you know,
because you wouldn't have had this reaction from the home, right,
So dragging it back in looks down and I can't
(41:03):
even imagine, you know, I've got visions of myself walking
up my bathroom with a cup of coffee in my hand,
and I'm walking back up the driveway, you know, with
the bind trailing behind me, and you feel this weight
and you open it up. And as it turns out,
when she did not show up to pick up the
kids or no, wait, that wasn't the way it was,
(41:25):
the husband ex husband brought the kids back to their home,
she didn't answer the door, and he's like one of
the first people I think it was. It was one
of her relatives that he alerted to call the mom.
They made entry and she's nowhere to be found. And
that was just so far outside of the norm. But
(41:47):
you know what was eventually discovered other than her remains
after a period of time that had been you know,
subsequently deposited in various bends around the air area. They
discovered that whoever did this had actually used a limb saw,
(42:07):
which if you think about the big curved handle, you know,
with a thin blade.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Hands like a handsaw, not a power saw.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
No, not a power saw, but like a limbsaw. And
so and he did this in the bathroom because you
could see they still had they had trace evidence around
the drain. They had it in the drain trap of
blood and tissue. Because you're going to generate if you,
I urge everybody, if you get a chance to take
(42:36):
a look at one of these saws, look down the
long axis of the saw and you'll see that the
teeth are not perfectly aligned. They're kind of offset a
little bit. Well, have you ever wondered why when you
look at one of these saws, if you ever saw
the limb off, there's a lot of sawdust that gets
caught up in there. And that's because it's very destructive, okay,
very very destructive. It really goes through these limbs in
(42:57):
a very efficient way. However, it gather up all of
this dust and the bark and everything else that's particulated
at that point in time. It's the same thing with
bone and muscle and any kind of sinew that it
goes through, and the skin and the hair. You know,
you'll get that caught up on the blade as well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
You know, Joe, how they got him, you know how
they figured out who it was?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Please tell me.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It was her mom. Okay? When when the mom is
called by the ex husband and they make entry into
her house, Okay, she's not Lynna's not home, angry, she's
nowhere to be found. And so they look around and
they find her purse, and they find her phone. Mom
picks up her phone and she knows who she was
going to go out on a date with, knowing that
(43:39):
she was going out with Charlton. So what does she do?
Using the cell phone in the residence, Lenn's mother calls
Charlton and hey, what happened? Where is she? And as
soon as she hung up from the phone, she called
the police. She used herself, her daughter's cell phone to
(44:00):
call the police and say hey, or actually, you know what,
She sent a text to Charlton that's what it was.
It was not voice of his text. Sorry. And then
she called the police and that's when they discovered the
blood and everything else a Charlton's place.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, and they're trying to say, you know, the police
are trying to pet upon attended. I keep following in
that trap. They're trying to put this thing together relative
to who she had finally had contact with. And look
at the top of this, And what's really weird, Dave,
is this perpetrator is homeless man, you know, and he
(44:32):
when you see him in the interviews, he looks like
a kind of a well put together guy, but he's
living on streets, you know, up in Seattle, unlike you know,
the case involving and we're I can't say we're just
coming off of this. It seems like it has been
going on forever and ever. And this is that damn
Taylorship business case as well. And again I think this
(44:55):
falls into the category of offensive dismemberment because this poor
guy that she just absolutely wrecked, he he's kind of
this to me. He just he always came off and
everything that I read about him, everything that I saw,
he kind of came off as as kind of a
(45:19):
passive kind of guy. She's twenty five. Shad Tyron, who
is the victim here, is twenty four. You know, she's
actually charged in this case, Dave of you know, like
I said, and that's why I believe it goes to
this homicide obviously because she killed him, but third degree
(45:39):
sexual abuse and mutilating a corpse. Yeah, and you know
she had she had actually done this done in the
basement of his mother's home. Man.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, and you know it was it was Shad Durian's
mom who actually discovered yeah, and parts of his anatomy,
parts of his body.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
And police found that her business used knives that were
found in the home. Okay, just knives found in the
home Joe to dismember a body after after she killed him,
she continued to have sex with his dead body. Now,
(46:27):
there are so many questions I have about that that,
to be honest with you, I don't even want to
ask because I don't want my brain to go down
that path. Right, But immediately I'm thinking, really, that's I
know that you cannot just say just because I don't
understand the proclivity that it makes that person insane. I
just can't think of a sane person who would do that.
(46:48):
But based on her activity and what she did after
and the way she presents herself, yep, I think she
perfectly knew exactly what she was doing the entire time,
because it wasn't oops, messed up it was you know,
it wasn't. Hey man, we're into this really kinky stuff.
We like to take it really close to death as
we climax. It wasn't any of that, Joe.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
No, No, it wasn't. And that's why I think that
she's touched by sadism here. I don't mean satanism, I
mean sadism. She has this desire, I think, to inflict pain,
and I think through the pain and the sexual dominant
dominance that she exerted over this guy, not just in life, Dave,
but in death as well. I think that that came
(47:31):
out at the end game here. Just like with all
of these offensive dismemberment cases, it plays out so that
it's a it's it's an event where these individuals can
in fact bring themselves to sexual satisfaction, even if it
(47:51):
means murder and dismemberment. That was part one of the
types of implement Part two is coming up I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Quality times with Joseph Scott More. I'm not, by any
means the brightest guy in the world. I think that
a lot of it, Any knowledge that I have that
I've been blessed with, comes from repetition and being around it.
What I do you know for so long, you know,
(00:22):
you just kind of absorb it after a while. It
doesn't mean that you're that you're intuitively makes sense there,
intuitively intelligent. It just means that you can absorb information.
And my my area is very specific, okay, in death investigation,
(00:42):
And granted there are all kinds of subcategories within death investigation,
but for me, it always has been the best way
to learn things is to compartmentalize them, and I picked
them up. I was a big advocate when I was
an undergraduate in college of using index cards to run
through before I would do testing and that sort of thing.
(01:04):
I love that because it really made me learn the information.
But you know, that kind of breaking down of things
lending itself to absorption of knowledge. It's certainly a way
that we work in the Morgue. We don't just essentially
(01:26):
do all of our dissections at one time. We take
it peace by peace and learning from each individual element
of the human body what we can to try to
arrive at a cause and ultimately a manner of death.
(01:48):
But you know, there are people out there, and we've
talked about them on the show, who do their own
compartmentalizing of human remains. They break them down into various
elements and also for various reasons, which we're going to
discuss today. Today we're going to talk about the five
(02:13):
the five types of dismemberment that we come across in
the field in forensic science, in medical legal debt investigation.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bats and Dave,
you know you can verify this. I had already mentioned
(02:37):
to you that I wanted to do this going into
the end of the year, that because we've talked so
much about dismemberment, I kind of wanted to cap this
thing off relative to what we're trying to do when
we bring these cases, and just to go ahead and
get this out of the way. I do, in fact
believe that there is an uptick in the number of
(02:59):
dismemberments that are covered in the news. I can't scientifically
verify that. Hopefully I can, maybe I can get my
graduate assistant on that and start collecting some data. But
people dismember for all different reasons. But the reason I'm
saying to you I need you to validate upfront that
I had already said this to you maybe a week
(03:21):
or so back, that I wanted to do this episode
Body Bags, because just yesterday, without any prior knowledge, there
has been an article that has dropped that where it
is that, I think it was in the Post, I'm
not sure. I think it was in the Post and
maybe the Daily Daily Mail, Elie Times, where they are
(03:45):
now saying that there is a connection between the Black
Dahlia and the Zodiac Killer. Now I'm not here to,
you know, to talk about those cases necessarily, particularly the
Zodiac because I don't know that that'll ever be solved,
and certainly at this distance in time, I don't know
(04:08):
that the Black Dahlia case, but it's one of the
first cases I think that many people ever heard about
where there was and really made a big splash where
there was a dismemberment. Well, and it was a very
particular kind of dismemberment.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
In the case of Elizabeth Short, who was the Black Dahlia.
If you remember Joe, this case, we have on this program,
talked about how b roll footage for television and pictures
actually means a lot about getting coverage for a case.
There are always there are always cases. I don't want
(04:43):
to knock any missing person's case or death or anything
like that, but I'll give you an example, John b
and a Ramsey. She had Granted, she's a child who
is found dead in her own home. They thought she
was kidding. I mean that whole story. But the reason
it caught the attention of the world was all the
b roll video that was shown every time they mentioned
(05:06):
the case. Here we go, we got the girl on stage.
We've got her dancing, We've got her you know, trust up,
wearing makeup and all that at five and six years old.
And as newspeople cover stories, they look for that. They
look for things that will make their story stand out,
whether it's the producer trying to make your leg up
on the next gig or whatever, and so that actually
(05:26):
matters in the coverage that happens, especially when a story
is static, meaning there's no new information coming out. In
the case of Elizabeth Short, the very first time I
ever saw the story, Joe, it was photos, pictures taking
at the scene of this dismembered woman and how her
body was positioned in pieces, and the description of how
(05:49):
her body was found and people were walking you know,
you are talking about in the post World War era
of it was after World War two.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Right, forty yeah, it was forty second.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
But Elizabeth short her she was called the Black Dahlia
because she was seen by a woman walking with her
child and a stroller and by others before the police
were ever called. And you had a newsperson with his
camera taking photos as police arrived on the scene.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
So before any official photos were taken of this victim,
they were already produced. They were already going through the film,
you know, and getting it on the paper the next day.
So that story gained a lot of momentum because of
the physical description and the pictures that fit that. Because
no matter what you say, a body that is dismembered
(06:49):
and is sitting in grass for all to see is
a shocking thing, no matter who you are or where
you are. It's not something we ever expect to see
in our life.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
No, it's not. And can you imagine this, this mother
pushing you know, her her baby down the street, and
this is kind of a and this is a weird
thing to say now, an undeveloped area of Los Angeles.
It was like and when you take a look, you
can actually see where I'm not going to say that
things had been you know, that things had been stubbed,
(07:22):
you know, ready to build a house over them, relative
to plumbing and all that, but it looked like that.
You could tell where sidewalks had been poured and and
so forth and so on. And her body is laying
that out there, and she, Elizabeth Short, had been bisected
and bisected here obviously by too. And again this goes
(07:43):
to the the process of dismemberment. She's cut across it
if you just think about it in the well, if
she's standing up, she's cut in the horizontal plane or
you know, around her equator of her body. Okay, and so,
and when you see her, her arms are actually bent
(08:05):
at the elbow and over her head, palms up. Her
legs are spread, which I've actually seen that before in
a series of serial killings where the legs were always
spread apart. It's like it's like a humiliation kind of
thing that's going on, and you know, you're literally laid
(08:26):
bare before the world and in the margins, the margins
of the incisions were very very neat What do you
mean you say margins? The margins like where the dissection
actually took place. So when she's cut in this kind
of equatorial position around her midline, there's not like, you know,
(08:47):
how we'll get these cases and we'll talk about them.
It's like, you know, if somebody had done this like
in a fever, they were using all manner of tools.
This was very specific, all right, And this this goes
to someone that that you know, I hate to use
the term training, but it was someone that had a
certain level of comfort and probably privacy, and most important time,
(09:10):
very little blood left in the body, so that gives
you an indication the body had probably been drained. And
here's something else. Did you know that her bowels were
actually neatly tucked beneath her body as she was laid out?
I don't know, right, yeah, but when you look at
(09:30):
her body down the long axis, so if we're standing
at the top of her head, looking down the long
axis from the top of her head to her feet,
did you know that the body is actually offset, which
is really weird, like.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
The lower to I'm sorry, it's on purpose.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I don't know. You went to the person that did this,
went to so much trouble to do a need incision
or a bisection, actually taking the body completely apart, but
yet you don't take the time to align the body.
The body is kind of offset. Now you know, I'm
not caring with a c stark out here. I can't
(10:07):
sit here and as a forensic psychologist, which I ain't
and don't want to be, I can't sit here and
tell you what kind of profile this person had. However,
I can tell you that the body is obviously askew
the other thing, and I find this fascinating. We'll talk
about movies in just a second, but when you think
about her body, I think about the Batman with Heath
(10:33):
Ledger in it, because she actually had a smile cut
into her face. Her face was actually was just so
disfigured and it goes from the corner of her mouth
up just turning up, and I swear, Dave, it looks
just like the smile that Heath Ledger had in the
Batman movie, which to me, in that canon of movies
(10:55):
is probably the best. Heath Ledger was incredible as a joker,
and I think very disturbing, but you know, just that
was carved into her face, and I wonder if if
they got that idea and reflect that. You know, you
and I talk about movies every now and then on
the show. I got to tell you there was a
movie that came out in two thousand and six which
(11:17):
was directed by De Palma, and it was a complete
dumpster fire. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was
in that movie. I was really really hoping that it
was going to be one of these things that really
knocked our socks off, and it was a dumpster fire
with really bad smell to it. I don't know how else.
But interestingly enough, going back to the Zodiac connection, David Fincher,
(11:43):
who did I think he did seven? He was slated
to do that movie. He didn't do it. He's the
one that winds up doing the Zodiac movie, which was fantastic,
that had Jake Gillenhall in it, and that movie was
was actually even though you didn't see like a slash
(12:04):
or anything, it was quite terrifying.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
All right now, Joe, what is happening now? And we
did talk about this. You and I talked about the
Black Dahlia story. Like last week, and for there to
be some movement on this story now this week and
today it's all over. I'm surprised at a connection between
(12:26):
the Zodiac, which is predominantly San Francisco, northern California exactly.
You have, you know, the Black Dahlia, which is one
murder case in southern California in the you know, in
a neighborhood in the forties, residential neighborhood in the south
part of Los Angeles. I guess I'm trying to figure
out based on a number of things that have been
(12:51):
said about the Black Dahlia case. There's a man who
has written a book about his father, believing that his father,
who was a surgeon, actually was the murderer. And he
has this whole thing cooked up where his dad got
her home and I say, just drain it over blood
in the bathtub kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah. No, And I actually went off. There's a tape
of me on YouTube, I think, and I was on
with Vinnie Politan on h l N years ago, and
I don't know if it's the same guy, but I
go off. I was. I was actually I did a phoner.
I was nowhere and they said we want you to
comment on this book that's just come out. I said, oh,
I'll be glad. It was says, if you've got this
(13:32):
much information. At that time, there were still a lot
of family members that were alive. I guess there still
are of Zodiac victims. If you've got this information, get
an attorney, go to San Francisco, to the PD and
these other associated and get in their face and say,
I've got this information. What can you do with it?
Was let's get some resolutions for this. It just seems
(13:54):
so mercenary for me. Yeah about it, Yeah, because my
daddy did it. And then of course I get these
responses like, well he made an attempt to go to
the chief of Police of San Francisco. Yeah, well nothing
ever came of that, you know, because there was supposed
to be DNA connectivity. But with this case, what they're
saying now and again, this is another amateur sleuth that
(14:16):
has come on to this thing. They're opining that this
case in particular is connected to the Zodiac. And the
one suspect is a guy that was a combat medic
in World War Two, okay, and that he had some
disturbances and this sort of thing, and he had gotten
(14:36):
into fights and was really unbalanced, and so he actually
winds up changing his name because they were initially looking
at him as a witness into Black Dahlia. And eventually
he changes his name and bounces out of town right
and abandons like his family and everything else. Well, he
makes his way back to the Bay Area. I think
(15:00):
in the early sixties. I might be way off here,
but that's kind of how the story is going, makes contact,
I think with his daughter maybe again, I don't really know,
and he essentially has gone off his nut apparently and
involved himself somehow in these so called Zodiac killings. And
(15:22):
I still don't know that there's substance proof that these
kind of interlaced that what they have said or interlaced
cases are actually connected. I don't know that there's ever
been positive proof that that, you know, that actually happened was.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
In the Zodiac, similar to Berkowitz, you know, shooting couples, and.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, there was the elements of that. You had the
one cab driver that was like, what's that area that's
like really really ritzy in or used to be in
in Is it spy Spyglass Hill or whatever. It's like
a naghtor I can't remember that. I love Samrich, I
used to love San Francisco, but he was shot of Cabby.
He was shot. He was a single that was shot
(16:02):
there in his car and they had the lovers on
lover Lane, the lover's lane. Then he varies and attacks
this young couple out by lake with a knife, right,
you know that sort of thing, kind of change. But
with those cases there was this is a big standout
to me. There was no dismemberment.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
So I was going to ask you, yeah, I don't
remember anything ever being And yet the Dahlia is a
one off. You know, we don't have another case in
southern California within that same time frame where anything like
what happened with Elizabeth Short was reported as happening again.
And somebody who would go to this great effort to
(16:38):
present the body in such a way where the sharp
where it wasn't an amateur or wasn't somebody who didn't
know what they were doing cut up her body. Right,
you were talking about how her body was positioned a
little off center, but still the cutting was professional or experienced. Yes,
straining of the blood was experienced. I mean, there was
a lot going on with that one. Body. And it
(17:01):
doesn't seem like people start at that level. It's like
they grow into that level.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Right, And a corpse is a corpse, you know, like
if you can turn someone by your own hand into
a corpse, in other words, kill them that body. That body.
People love to throw the round the term around objectification
all the time, and they use it, I think incorrectly.
(17:29):
This is truly the epitome of turning turning a person
into a doll, if you will, and breaking that person
apart by any means necessary. But it fits this case,
does at least the black dolue fits into one specific category.
Some of the stuff I'm going to reveal might just
(17:49):
shock you. I hate the white question, but dismemberment is
one of those things where you'll get that a lot.
(18:13):
Why why why would? And I think that it's one
of these things that people cannot take the measure of,
Dave because they it's so foreign, because it's so grotesque
and over the top. And you and I have spoken
about this in the past where you know, I'll say it.
(18:35):
It wasn't enough just to kill the person. You've got
to go another step deeper into evil here. And so
with that said, I felt that it was incumbent upon
us to kind of to kind of talk about, you know,
some of these some of these cases, and you know,
the first the first stop along the tour here is
(18:57):
something that's called defensive of dismemberment. And most of the
time this is more of a this this is dismemberment
is used. It has specific utility. In other words, you
can't you cannot move the body. You have to do
(19:20):
something after you have killed an individual, to fragment or
to parse up or however you want to frame it. Uh,
you have to break this body down into elements just
to make it manageable. David. Some some of these cases,
these people can be rather rotund because that's very difficult
(19:42):
to manage. Or there's a reason they call it dead weight.
And what's you know, really kind of ghastly about this.
Dismemberment of a morbidly obese person is particularly nasty business.
And there are a multiplicity of reasons why. But it
(20:02):
just it takes it to a whole new level. But
I think if I remember correctly, Dave, there was a
case that you and I and it wasn't so much
this case. It was out of Oklahoma. This case had
anything to do with you had somebody that was morbidly obese.
(20:26):
You had and you and I were both shocked by this.
I remember when we laid this down, we had multiple
people that were dissected. Dave. I know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
And when you're talking about four men, Okay, immediately, I'm
gonna be honest with you, that shocks me. And I
don't think it should shock me anymore than any other
group of four that were found dead and are pulled
from a river. But Joe, the fact that we've got
four men and they were all very young, and I
mean we're talking twenty nine, thirty and thirty two, that
(20:59):
just tells you a lot about the men who were killed,
But it doesn't tell you a whole lot else. Show
are police chief there at the time, his name of
Joe Prentiss, and he actually said at a news conference
all four bodies were dismembered before being placed in the river,
(21:19):
and that is what caused difficulty in determining identities, and
that's why it took so long. So do they know
where they all killed at the same time, in the
same place and then taken out in a job boat
and tossed over the sidelight.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Chum that's an excellent question, and there's not too much.
You know, there's not a lot you know, in a river.
River is going to act. You know, in some landlocked
place like Oklahoma where this took place, river is going
to primarily be used to disguise a body, all right,
(21:54):
because there's not It's not like you're going to the
Everglades or South Louisiana. You know where you got the swamp.
Crawfish will feed on bodies. Most lakes, most ponds and
creeks and rivers in that area of the country have
got plenty of crawfish, and there might be as the
body begins to soften, you can have other scavengers that
(22:18):
might come along, like catfish. Probably to a certain degree.
Other species might feed on bodies, but you're not going
to have kind of the wholesale total disruption of the body. Now,
the aquatic environment is going to break break these bits
(22:38):
down quicker because the body is in fact dissected. If
I'm not mistaken, was it in this particular case. I
can't remember the the guy used tools in this and
it seems like they were power tools. I'm not mistaken.
And what had happened is the perpetrator in this case,
(22:59):
coftees fell stealing from him and he owned like a
junk yard or something like this. And what's really weird
is these guys had showed up on bicycles to do this.
That kind of stood out in my mind as what.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
It does because you're dealing with you know what, if
you're twenty nine years old, thirty thirty two and you're
riding a bicycle, Yeah, everybody does that when they're seven.
Not when you're thirty, unless you're mountain biking or in
a race for something. Unless you have you don't just
tool around town or.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
If you live in London or New York, right, you know,
but not in rural Oklahoma and I can't. And these
guys were these guys were big guys, and you know,
they were like outdoorsy kind of guys. A couple of them,
they're they're they're they obviously used you know, the news
media use these images of these subjects wearing like utility
worker vests. These guys or like they were road crew.
(23:50):
These guys had worked out, they were hard workers, you know,
or worked you know, worked in the real world. Uh.
They both got those kind of farmer tans. Going on
in this sort of thing. But apparently this guy thought
that they were stealing from him. And you know, I
remember after this guy facilitated this, and I remember telling
you at the time, there's no telling what type of
(24:12):
instruments this guy had because he ran he ran a
junk yard, and you know, you if you're doing dealing
with things like scrap metal, there's all kinds of ways
to break up bodies. But this is going to be
a defensive dismemberment because he's trying to put as much
distance between himself and these bodies as he can. He's
got to do something to dispose of them. When you
(24:35):
begin to think about, you know, what am I going
to do with with four grown men and their bodies.
What's kind of odd about this is that even after
this had done, he went to all the trouble to
dissect the bodies. I guess he's sitting around wringing his hands,
because he bolts. He hops in a car and drives
off to Florida. At this point in time. Of course,
(24:56):
they eventually catch this guy. But you know, one more
point I'd like to make about this case is the
fact that when they're trying to put these bodies back together.
You've got four guys that probably all approximate the same size.
And when you take four bodies and let's just say
(25:18):
they're all bisected, okay, which just means cut in two.
I think that there was probably more extensive cutting than that.
You still have to put pieces together to make them match.
And it's not like it's some kind of toy set
where it's you insert slot B into slot A and
you've got a connection with this piece. It's not like
(25:38):
that because you're having to scientifically connect them together, which
can be problematic. But in this case, you've got an
individual that used the facility of his location in order
to make this happen and try to get as much
distance between him and the bodies. It's because many people
(26:02):
will essentially kill people and not put distance between themselves
and leave them around. This guy made an effort to
get these bodies away from him, and it's still the
wheel still came off, Dave.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
You know interesting you use that term because they never
located the bicycles that these four men took out of
the house. You know, they'd leave one of the family
member's homes and all four of these adult men go
tooling at nine o'clock at night. Down the road, they
end up at Joseph Kennedy salvageyard where they're up to
no good. And by the way, police got this information
(26:36):
from a fifth man who was invited onto the crime spree,
and he's the one that went to police. I don't
know if he came to them after they went missing,
before the bodies were found, don't know, but they did
have an insider that came up and said, hey, they
were stealing stuff and I was invited, but I didn't go,
or I'd have been in there with them. And that's
(26:56):
how they were able to tie this together. Because if
you just find body parts floating in a river, you know,
that's a that's a tough sell. And you mentioned Kennedy.
Joseph Kennedy takes off, you know, for Daytona, Florida, which
is where they got him, and they rested him there
in Daytona, Florida, and had to at Daytona Beach and
had to actually extradute him back to Oklahoma where he
(27:17):
was formerly charged with four counts of first degree murder.
And they never I don't think they ever found the
gun that he shot them first. Okay, he kills them
with a gun. Then he dismembers them.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, because you can't. What's he going to do. He's
going to try to knock each one of these guys
in the head with a ball pen hair. You have
to do this quickly in order to knock these guys
down and take them by surprise. And you know that,
you know that that goes into the elements of what
would be the motivation. Because I don't know about you,
but I've had things stolen from me and I do
(27:53):
have rage. I'm sure you've had rage. When you've had
things that have stolen from you, you have anger it,
you know, on the surface, it does make you, I think, aggressive,
But it's not the same as the second type of dismemberment,
which is actually referred to as aggressive dismemberment. Now, you know,
(28:16):
how do we kind of break this down with aggressive dismemberment,
which is number two along our continuum here of dismemberments,
it's the second most common. It's most of the time
it is there is a little fire that's burning within
somebody where they are angry over probably a protracted period
(28:42):
of time. They might see themselves as failure. They might
not want to be held accountable for something horrific that
they have done. And I say horrific, that's not the
correct word. Let's just say that. In the case of
(29:02):
Chandler Halderson out of Wisconsin, his whole thing was he
had been lying to both his mom and dad, Dave
for a protracted period of time, deceiving them, you know,
trying to you know, trying to make them think that
he was out in the job market, that he's working,
and they're confronting him about this, and all of a sudden,
(29:24):
this kid snaps. You have to think that, you know,
it was his motivation, anger and laziness, you know, and
that one moment that he decided to put ford motion
into his life. He didn't do it in the area
of studying to improve himself or whatever. I know what
(29:44):
I'm going to do. I'm going to kill my parents
and then I'm gonna you know, split them up into
pieces and try to get rid of their bodies.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Dave, and he actually, I had to cover this case. Yeah,
I think you run it a lot too.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I was, and I was.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
We spent a lot of time looking at the case
piece by piece literally to try to determine what really
was going on here because I think sometimes when we see,
especially a child that attacks parents, we try to think
was there something underlying? Was there something else here? Because
for us we think there has to be something more.
(30:26):
It couldn't really have just been that he had been
lying for so long and he knew he was caught
and they were going to cut off funding his lifestyle.
You know that he was the jig was up, and
now he's left with, well, if I kill them, I'll
get all their stuff and live my life. You know,
that's where we get stuck with that sometimes because we
have to we in our own minds have to figure
(30:46):
out why would anybody do this? Yes, and there is
no rhyme or reason to it. It really makes no
sense when you've got a young person that chooses this
path as a decision they think is a good way
to go about life right now for them and their parents.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, and I think that he you know, I guess again,
this goes to motivation and it's not necessarily my Bailey Wick.
But when you see what he did to their bodies,
he's got them, you know, he's got He's got them
in multiple pieces, and he's you can tell that he's
(31:23):
kind of frenzied because he's trying to decide how he's
going to divest himself of his parents' remains. Can you
imagine being that? Well, I don't think you can. Hopefully
you can't, but hopefully neither can I. But all of
a sudden you're faced with kind of eye popping situation
where it's like, oh, okay, I've literally pulled the trigger
on my parents, and what am I going to do now?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
Multiple gunshot wounds, you know, yeah, they did it was
a hunting accident. You're not you know, you're not out
hunting with Dick Cheney. You can't say it was an
accident right to your parents. They've got multiple gunshot wounds.
So your next best choice, I mean, think about it.
The best choice this guy had made led him to this.
So we're not dealing with a mental or mature individual.
(32:06):
We're dealing with an idiot who chose one idiot action
after another. Man. You mentioned frenzied in his way of dismembering. Yes,
how would that be different in terms of what you
would see as you're looking at the I hate to
make it sound like you're putting a puzzle together, but
I would imagine that's what you're doing trying to figure
out everything.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, you are you. You're in a situation where I
think that you cannot. You don't your brain is not
ordered to the point. And this actually goes, I think
to the fact that he's not some psychopath, because a
psychopath could actually sit there and think about very in
(32:46):
a very ordered manner. If they're going to do this,
this is you know, part A, Part B, Part C.
That's not what he did. He even attempted to burn
the bodies in in the I think, in the fireplace
in the home. He winds up distributing the bodies at
(33:07):
a cabin that was up the road, you know, from
the family home. And you know, he's lied about what
became of them. Where did they go?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
He's the one that reported him missing.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and if I remember correctly, he walked down the
road to neighbors' houses and asked them, have you seen
my parents? And the one thing that really stands out
to me is there's that that one woman they had
a video of her. I don't know if she had
her phone out or whatever it was, she let him
in her house. And this is in the wake of this,
and he's like I'm just here looking for my parents.
(33:43):
Can you help me? And I'm thinking, oh, my lord, boy,
did she dodge bullet? This case, Dave, and I don't
know if you remember this, but this case is not
too dissimilar from one other one that was an aggressive
dismemberment and it was the two women. It was a
(34:03):
daughter and a granddaughter. And this was in Maryland.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Oh yes, I remember, in the basement, yeah, yeah, where
the daughter had killed the grandmother and they they had
used or she had used a chainsaw and made her daughter.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Act as a lookout to see if the sisters of
grandmother were going to show up. And what makes this
so I think that this was again another aggression related
kind of thing with the dismemberment, what are you going
to do? Because they tried this is the part that
got me. Not that the rest of it with a
(34:43):
chainsaw and everything doesn't get me. But they tried to
render her down on a barbecue grill in the backyard. Yep.
And again that goes to you this anger. There's no
honoring of the dead here. And actually she retained the
body parts. They were in the basement, in the basement,
down down in the house where she had actually been killed.
(35:03):
She had been killed up in her room, and so
there was a lot of blood deposition. You've got a
chainsaw that generates high velocity blood deposition almost looks like
high velocity gunshot wounds, and it would be everywhere. One
of the most messy undertakings that you can possibly have.
(35:24):
But you know, we've left you with two at this point,
we've still got, believe it or not, three more different
types of dismemberment to go hold on to your hat.
(35:52):
We've had this discussion going Dave about the types of dismemberment,
probably one of the most chilling ones that you know,
they're all chilling by their own right, but there is
there is a type of dismemberment that is out there
that actually drives a person. It's I think that that
(36:15):
the actual dismemberment of the body is the end game.
It's the thrill of it.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Because there is a sexual connotation. I think that even
if you look perhaps back at the Gainsol Ripper, you
know that the movie screen was based on there was
a sexual element to that. I believe. I believe there
were at least one, maybe two. I can't recall. My
brain's foggy right now, the decapitations. But you know, with
(36:48):
with with offensive dismemberment, there's an element that they believe
that is sexual in nature. The person probably has a
taste of sadism. That's part of who they are. It's
part of the person that they are. The you know,
the case I think that first came to mind for
(37:10):
me and I mentioned this case a lot because it's
so horrific is the murder of Ingrad Lynn up in Seattle,
you know where she had been on a dating app
and you know, she was a nurse, had two small kids,
had a good relationship with their ex husband. I think
the ex husband was Yeah, she was gorgeous, had you know,
(37:31):
the ex husband had the kids, so she could go
out on a date. They went to a Mariner's ball
game in Seattle, and they being the person that she
hooked up with on the dating app, David, This this
did not end well.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
John Robert Charlton was his name. Yeah, takes the right
to us a Seattle Mariner's game. What a great first date,
you know if you're.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
That's I, Hey, nook, I got to say that was
mine and Kim's first date.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Man.
Speaker 1 (37:59):
We went to see the Toronto Blue Jays in interleague
play against the Braves. Wow, it took her on a
Friday night. Yeah, I'll never forget. It was nineteen ninety eight.
John Smoltz pitched and he lost four to Oh.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Wow, you should have never gone out with her again
after that. I'll come on at any rate. So Charlton
takes her out and they go on this date. And
you mentioned the ex husband watching the children so she
could go on this date, which is there are a
few people that I know, thankfully, who have survived the
divorce and maintained a good relationship for their children, and
(38:35):
that's what they were attempting to do. Which that tells
me a lot about the person we're talking about here
in Ingrid's case, because it takes a certain intestinal fortitude,
but others first, and to put herself in a position
with this person she doesn't know, and to go to
a very safe first date in the ball game, she's
(38:56):
reported missing the next day and she's last seen, you know,
going out on the date. The thing that got me
about this one, and you might have to correct me,
because wasn't it a homeowner?
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
That had because Seattle being what it is, not knocking
and my sister lives in Seattle and she's a school teacher.
But my sister they have they have cans, you know,
between recycling and not recycling, and boy, if you put
the wrong thing in the wrong can, you're in trouble.
And that's what came to mind on this, because this
(39:34):
had something to do with the recycling that caused this
neighbor to look and go, hey, this ain't mine. I
didn't put this here.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yeah, he went out there and goes to you know,
when if you live in a city that does trash
pick up and you go you put your ben out
by the road, when you go to pull it back in,
you don't expect it to still be heavy. No, okay,
So this guy is pulling the trash ben back in.
(40:04):
It's heavy. He's like, what is this? He opens the
lid up. If I remember correctly, he's staring down at
a foot yes and yeah. No, it's one of the
most horrific things.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And here's where my mind went. Yeah, when we first
had this, Joe, my first thought was, Okay, the case
is broken because this homeowner, because the homeowner had the
body was in his trash hand as he's pulling it
back up. If the killer had been a couple hours
or minutes earlier. Yep, she would have been in the
(40:38):
trash and nobody would have known.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
No, I'm so glad you said that, because that's indicative
of a tom Stamp relative when that particular remain was
placed in there. So you know that he must have
deposited this after the trash run had taken place, you know,
because you wouldn't have had this reaction from the home, right,
So dragging it back in looks down and I can't
(41:03):
even imagine, you know, I've got visions of myself walking
up my bathroom with a cup of coffee in my hand,
and I'm walking back up the driveway, you know, with
the bind trailing behind me, and you feel this weight
and you open it up. And as it turns out,
when she did not show up to pick up the
kids or no, wait, that wasn't the way it was,
(41:25):
the husband ex husband brought the kids back to their home,
she didn't answer the door, and he's like one of
the first people I think it was. It was one
of her relatives that he alerted to call the mom.
They made entry and she's nowhere to be found. And
that was just so far outside of the norm. But
(41:47):
you know what was eventually discovered other than her remains
after a period of time that had been you know,
subsequently deposited in various bends around the air area. They
discovered that whoever did this had actually used a limb saw,
(42:07):
which if you think about the big curved handle, you know,
with a thin blade.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Hands like a handsaw, not a power saw.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
No, not a power saw, but like a limbsaw. And
so and he did this in the bathroom because you
could see they still had they had trace evidence around
the drain. They had it in the drain trap of
blood and tissue. Because you're going to generate if you,
I urge everybody, if you get a chance to take
(42:36):
a look at one of these saws, look down the
long axis of the saw and you'll see that the
teeth are not perfectly aligned. They're kind of offset a
little bit. Well, have you ever wondered why when you
look at one of these saws, if you ever saw
the limb off, there's a lot of sawdust that gets
caught up in there. And that's because it's very destructive, okay,
very very destructive. It really goes through these limbs in
(42:57):
a very efficient way. However, it gather up all of
this dust and the bark and everything else that's particulated
at that point in time. It's the same thing with
bone and muscle and any kind of sinew that it
goes through, and the skin and the hair. You know,
you'll get that caught up on the blade as well.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
You know, Joe, how they got him, you know how
they figured out who it was?
Speaker 1 (43:18):
Please tell me.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
It was her mom. Okay? When when the mom is
called by the ex husband and they make entry into
her house, Okay, she's not Lynna's not home, angry, she's
nowhere to be found. And so they look around and
they find her purse, and they find her phone. Mom
picks up her phone and she knows who she was
going to go out on a date with, knowing that
(43:39):
she was going out with Charlton. So what does she do?
Using the cell phone in the residence, Lenn's mother calls
Charlton and hey, what happened? Where is she? And as
soon as she hung up from the phone, she called
the police. She used herself, her daughter's cell phone to
(44:00):
call the police and say hey, or actually, you know what,
She sent a text to Charlton that's what it was.
It was not voice of his text. Sorry. And then
she called the police and that's when they discovered the
blood and everything else a Charlton's place.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
Yeah, and they're trying to say, you know, the police
are trying to pet upon attended. I keep following in
that trap. They're trying to put this thing together relative
to who she had finally had contact with. And look
at the top of this, And what's really weird, Dave,
is this perpetrator is homeless man, you know, and he
(44:32):
when you see him in the interviews, he looks like
a kind of a well put together guy, but he's
living on streets, you know, up in Seattle, unlike you know,
the case involving and we're I can't say we're just
coming off of this. It seems like it has been
going on forever and ever. And this is that damn
Taylorship business case as well. And again I think this
(44:55):
falls into the category of offensive dismemberment because this poor
guy that she just absolutely wrecked, he he's kind of
this to me. He just he always came off and
everything that I read about him, everything that I saw,
he kind of came off as as kind of a
(45:19):
passive kind of guy. She's twenty five. Shad Tyron, who
is the victim here, is twenty four. You know, she's
actually charged in this case, Dave of you know, like
I said, and that's why I believe it goes to
this homicide obviously because she killed him, but third degree
(45:39):
sexual abuse and mutilating a corpse. Yeah, and you know
she had she had actually done this done in the
basement of his mother's home. Man.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yeah, and you know it was it was Shad Durian's
mom who actually discovered yeah, and parts of his anatomy,
parts of his body.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
And police found that her business used knives that were
found in the home. Okay, just knives found in the
home Joe to dismember a body after after she killed him,
she continued to have sex with his dead body. Now,
(46:27):
there are so many questions I have about that that,
to be honest with you, I don't even want to
ask because I don't want my brain to go down
that path. Right, But immediately I'm thinking, really, that's I
know that you cannot just say just because I don't
understand the proclivity that it makes that person insane. I
just can't think of a sane person who would do that.
(46:48):
But based on her activity and what she did after
and the way she presents herself, yep, I think she
perfectly knew exactly what she was doing the entire time,
because it wasn't oops, messed up it was you know,
it wasn't. Hey man, we're into this really kinky stuff.
We like to take it really close to death as
we climax. It wasn't any of that, Joe.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
No, No, it wasn't. And that's why I think that
she's touched by sadism here. I don't mean satanism, I
mean sadism. She has this desire, I think, to inflict pain,
and I think through the pain and the sexual dominant
dominance that she exerted over this guy, not just in life, Dave,
but in death as well. I think that that came
(47:31):
out at the end game here. Just like with all
of these offensive dismemberment cases, it plays out so that
it's a it's it's an event where these individuals can
in fact bring themselves to sexual satisfaction, even if it
(47:51):
means murder and dismemberment. That was part one of the
types of implement Part two is coming up I'm Joseph
Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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