December 30, 2025 • 38 mins
There are five types of dismemberment, and in this episode, Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss necromaniac dismemberment and communication dismemberment.nt.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.03 Introduction - Dismemberment Part 2
02:14.70 Defensive Dismemberment
04:41.09 Walshe "Sudden Adult Death Syndrome"
10:00.54 Taylor Schabusiness
14:55.62 Dhamer/necromaniac
19:41.14 Ed Gein, items of clothing found
24:25.94 Gein made utensils out of human remains
29:21.85 Sending a "message"
34:36.30 Bodies dumped in shallow grave
38:28.38 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Body dies, but Joseph's gotten more. The downside I think
of human remains, particularly when they are dismembered human remains,
is the fact that without the entire body, you can't
(00:22):
tell the full story. And so many of these cases
that pop up in the news or that we as
practitioners have worked over the course of our lives, can
be very frustrating because sometimes you'll only find one part,
and just like in life, you can't tell the full
(00:45):
story of someone just because of a single element. It
goes much deeper and there's always that fragment bit, not
just in the sense from a scientific standpoint, but also
in the narrative of someone's life. This is going to
be part two of our discussion regarding the different types
(01:12):
of dismemberment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags.
We're back at it, Brother Dave, We're back at it.
We've talked about three different types. There's five, and in
the first segment that we cut the other day with
(01:36):
the first three, we you know, we kind of touched
I'm not going to say lightly, because it wasn't lightly,
but we went into the different types from that perspective,
and of course the most common. The most common is
what's referred to as defensive dismemberment, right where I think
(01:57):
that many people that engage in this behavior, they suddenly
have this epiphantal moment with oh my Lord, what in
the world have I gotten myself into? And they're trying to,
you know, split the body up so that they can
get as much distance between themselves and the body and
maybe deposit it somewhere, just to get away from those
(02:22):
things that are going to tie them back to some
kind of horrendous case. And listen, there are actually cases
out there day where the person did not necessarily have
a hand in the death of the individual. And I'm
actually reflective right now. And forgive me, I can't remember
(02:44):
the guy's name, but there was the guy that was
the attorney and his dad is also kind of a
defract or, however you want to put it, judge. And
they had moved to Florida from Michigan, and the dad
was like up in the seventies. The son and the
dad were doing coke together. Oh yeah, I remember remember that,
(03:06):
and that the son panicked. I think that the dad
had a massive heart attack, which doesn't surprise me. I
mean he's he's up in age and he's snorting coke
with his son, and the son actually dismember the dad
and the head is gone forever and ever. Amen, they
(03:27):
still haven't located the head. And he was charged, I think,
and I remember covering that trial on long crime. He was.
He was charged in the case, but he was only
found guilty of you know, abuse of a corpse, I think,
is what it came down to. So not all of
these cases actually involve, you know, a homicide, unlike the
(03:50):
case we're just coming off of with Brian Walsh right
where he tried to sell everybody on this idea that
what was it? He said? He said, I wanted to
spare my children. I wanted to spare my children the
horror of their mother having died. Oh okay, cool, So
you're gonna chop up your their mother and deposit her
(04:12):
body all over the place. What a humanitarian you are? Right?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
You are? You know, that mental giant, you know coming
up with that as a game plan, because if you know,
his wife dies sudden adult death syndrome and instead of
calling nine to one one where they could come in
and take a look and figure out what happened, no,
he doesn't. That that's the normal call people make, because hey,
if she died in the bed, Joe, if she dies
(04:37):
there and she's just laying in the bed sudden adult
death syndrome, then by golly, uh, there there's nothing he
can worry about, nothing he has to worry about. They
will come in, they will examine and figure out. Wow,
but what he chooses to do, I mean, if you
believe his story, see now, if you don't believe his story,
(04:58):
then what happens of him cutting up his life on
a is just beyond the pale. You know, it's just
none of his reasoning stands up. But as we've gone
through these, Joe, these dismemberments, you remember at Crime Con Orlando,
when we get an entire segment on dismemberments, and you know,
I don't know if there are more happening or if
(05:18):
we're just hearing about more, because there is so much,
you know, uh, so many people are creating content now
online that we hear about these cases. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Well, it's it's listen. I mean, look, I'm chief among
centers here, all right. It is it's something that's obviously
entered into our conversations on a regular basis and listen,
it's it's salacious. I mean, I'll have to admit it.
But you know, look, if don't, don't don't throw stones
(05:51):
at the glass house, because everything in true crime can
be silacious, all right, you just got to pick your poison, right, right,
and so but I think I think that what kicks
it up a notch is that it's how the dead
or treated, you know, after the event. You know that
someone would go to this extent because I got to
tell you if someone came up to me and made
(06:14):
the argument, they were like, well, they killed them, so
what you know, what would stop them from going to
the next step. I'm going to tell you what would
stop them from going to the next step. Because to
kill someone, just say, if you shot them, you executed them,
shot them in the back of the head. That's okay, Yeah,
you committed a homicide. Right. That's completely different than Hey,
(06:39):
where's Papa's carpenter saw out in the you know, out
in the shed. Let me go get that and let
me get a tarp, let me get all this other
coutremm that I need in order to you know, to
break down this body. Completely different set of circumstances here,
all right, So yeah, there is there is actually a
darker place you can go to.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Well, could we not blame this on television and video
games because that used to work, you know, we used
to hear that all the time when you and I
were growing up. It's like the reason these juvenile linquins
are doing all this is because of television and music
of movies is desensitizing them to all of these things.
And it's like, a man, you have opened my eyes
to the history of crazy murders and the infliction of pain.
(07:28):
I'll never forget what you showed me on the case
where the in Great Britain where the body was found
under a parking lot, remember, and oh yeah, and you
explained who was that Richard? Thank you God that park
Yeah yeah, and when? And I will encourage you friends
to look for that one Richard. The third was an
episode if you haven't heard it, where Joe Scott. I
(07:50):
learned so much, you know, on that one episode because
it was stuff I'd never heard before, and it was evil.
I mean, it was just.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well you know what they did to his body afterwards,
I think, and you know and that again you've got
all kinds of intrigues that are involved there, and you
know the crown, the crown that was eventually going to
go to Henry the Eight's father, you know, the tutors
after they invaded. But I got to tell you, and
it goes without saying. You know, evil has always existed,
(08:23):
It's just it exists in various degrees. And we can
kind of see that played out. You know. We we
had talked about, you know, the defensive dismemberment, and then
we've got this aggressive dismemberment that comes where you've got
an individual like Chander you know, Chandler Halderson that's ripping
(08:44):
his parents to pieces. And it's not he he killed
them obviously, but there was so much there's so much
psychopathology there about him being held accountable in his life
about son, you need to get a job. What are
you doing? He's lying to him. He building this thing out,
and you can kind of see how he treats the bodies,
(09:04):
you know, afterwards, of both his mama and his daddy,
you know, and you think about that, and you think about, well, what,
you know, what child is this? You know, you begin
to think about that, uh, and how he just kind
of rips him the shreds and trying to feign go
around feigning you know, well have you seen my mom
(09:26):
and dad? I can't find him anywhere. You've seen my mommy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Year old idiot.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know, it's it's ridiculous, and you know you and
then you've got the I think this other element here
that we we had talked about the idea of offensive dismemberment,
and yes, it's offensive, but this is offensive in the
sense that it's not just it's not just the the killing,
(10:00):
it's the dismemberment and control over these individuals. You know,
there's that that connotation of dominance. Uh we I think
that should business is the yeah, yeah, you know, she's
she's a prime example because she was actually she had
(10:22):
dominated this poor kid. And I say kid, he's you know, grown,
grown man. But kind of the you know, PSTA resistance.
It's it's she's actually engaging with him throughout this entire
thing and dominating him to have sex, you know, even
going into the post mortem state. Though I don't think
(10:42):
that that's classic necrophilia necessarily, it's it's kind of playing
out this long stream of things because if you you know,
if you go back to to this young woman, the
mother of two, that we had talked about that on
the tender date and you know her the guy that
(11:04):
you know that goes and takes her out, you know,
they go to a ball game. Then afterwards he kills
her and begins to you know, cut her to pieces
in a bathtub in her own home with a limb saw.
And you know, again that's that's the idea of you know,
the some people come prepared I think, to do these
sorts of things. You know, you think about we had
(11:28):
talked yesterday about the black Dahlia. That person was prepared
that did the bisection on her. They had the right
tools in this case with a young mother out in Seattle.
The guy just used an instrument of opportunity. But I
can tell you this, we're still not done yet. We
still have two more categories to talk about, and trust me,
(11:54):
they are as horrific as the first three. You know, Dave,
Sometimes in when you work in forensics and you get
(12:20):
to meet people nationally, not just like in your own
little jurisdiction, because you know, we're kind of enslaved to
our jurisdiction that's where we work. You know, you don't
you don't get out. Don't get out of the house much,
all right. So if you go to a national meeting,
or if you interact with people, for let's say you're
put on a national task course like I was years ago,
(12:45):
sometimes you'll come across some of the most fascinating types
of people. And I guess it was in ninety four
ninety five I found myself eating a steakhouse with a
huge group of people in my field, and seated across
the table from me, Uh, was a guy that that
(13:09):
I think a lot of because he's brilliant. Off the charts.
I'll put to you this way. This guy is so smart.
He actually went got his MD because he was a
forensic pathologist. And then after the fact, he went back
and got a PhD focusing in medical history. Wow, and
(13:33):
began teaching at University of Michigan Medical School. And I
love you know, I love history and so but his
one of his big claims to fame was fact that
he's he's the guy that was tasked with doing all
of the examinations on Damer's victims.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Oh and he was.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
He was the chief medical examiner for Milwaukee County.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, And so Uh. You know, when I sat there
across the table from Jeff Jensen and I began to
listen to him talk about, you know, in that what
they found in that dirty, filthy apartment there in Milwaukee, which,
by the way, that building no longer exists for good reason.
You know, they tore that damn thing down, just like
(14:18):
they did with Gacy, and they tore his house down
to but you know that that residue still exists, and
certainly I think that probably with Domer there will always
be a stain of that. But you know, he he was,
He's actually an individual that is a necromaniac. Can you
(14:44):
explain that?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Because that term in and of itself tells me a lot,
But not being in the field, Okay, most of us
don't recognize. We know, necrophilia is having conjugal relations with
a dead body, correct.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, yeah, it is. And there's a real dark side
obviously to this, because well they're they're they're absenting the
I don't know, the the the life so that they
(15:20):
can take the body and do with the body what
they want. Okay, And here here's the real, you know,
kind of grotesque thing. There's so much to choose from, right,
it's like a buffet. They're still involved in this behavior,
even to the point where bodies will be in states
(15:42):
of decay and still engaging in this behavior, which is
one of the more fascinating things about again not necessarily
my my Baileywick, but you have to begin to talk
about things like the psychopathology here. You know, after you
have taken a body and essentially uh, you know, particulated
(16:04):
the body, you you have to make it sustainable or
maintain it to the point so that it will suit
your needs. It's the ultimate you know, use the term
I think in the first episode of objectification, you know,
where a body is actually taken and turned into turned
(16:25):
into a plaything, and that you know, that's what happened
with with Dahmer uh and all of these young men
that he essentially you know killed up there in that apartment. Uh,
you know, bits were everywhere, you know, and he he
actually uh kind of chronicled his activities. There were a
(16:48):
number of polaroid photographs that he had taken back in
the day of polaroids of states of the body. You know.
I remember one that really stands out. There's a young
man's in a bath tub and he's completely. You know,
there's no other way to put it. He's field dressed.
You know, he's split right down the middle. He's absent
of all of his organs. He's just laying there. Uh.
(17:10):
And then you know you think about the uh he
gets into this this sphere. It's it's like with with
with this necromaniac dismemberment, there is not just objectifying the body,
but there's an element with some of these cases that
(17:34):
goes to ingestion of bodies as well. You know where
you know with Domer uh, you know, he was famously
known as Cannibal and of course another another you know,
famous or infamous resident of Wisconsin is going to be
ed Geen and the same thing, you know, kind of
(17:54):
applied to him. Though he was not in the pure sense,
I think he was not necessarily a serial killer, but
he truly was a necrophile because he was a graver robber.
Now he did kill people, you know, but you know
with Dohmer, you know, Dahmer started stacking the bodies. Man,
he was going out and looking for living subjects, and
(18:17):
you know the whole idea of drilling holes into people's
brains and are into the skulls and injecting them with bleach,
because you want to create a zombie, you know, somebody
that you can put your arm around and hold on
to them, you know, like some kind of doll or something.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you think ed Geen we did an entire episode
on him, But do you think that ed Geen has
a lot more victims that we don't know about?
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah? I think that. I think that that could be
a possibility. The only thing that for me, you know,
when you look where Plainfield, Wisconsin is still to this day,
all right, and I urge anybody to check it out
on the map. It's not like he's living in the
greater Milwaukee area, okay, because and he you know, old
(19:03):
old Ed didn't get out of house much, okay, you know,
and we all know the story about his mom and
you know all the stuff that you know of course
that that book Psycho was based on. You know, where
he's got this dependency upon his mother. He didn't leave
her side much. And I would think that in a
population as small as Plainfield, in that little county up there,
(19:26):
you you would really notice if there were a lot
of people going missing, you know, that would be associated
with a serial event. Now, they did fun items of
clothing around the house. I think that there were see
if that's right, I think that there was young girls
(19:47):
clothing that was found in the house. And I don't
know that they were ever able to specifically tie that back,
you know, to to to anybody. Wo. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Let me ask you something if you told me something
that I hadn't. This goes back a couple of years ago.
We were talking about Bundy and you mentioned Bundy going
back to the bodies as they were deteriorating and putting
make up on them and dressing them, and uh, that
was I thought that was one of those things that
was kind of added to the story to tell around
a campfire, you know, about the guy with the hook
(20:27):
for a hand, you know, and she that's what I
thought that was. I didn't realize until you told me
that it was a real thing that you know, Bundy
was into necrophilia. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I think that a lot of these serial killers
are to a great degree, you know, and I know
that you know many people, many people will say that
the necromaniac dismemberment is something that is you hear the
most about it because it's so over the top even
in the realm of dismemberment. It's so over the top
(20:59):
and ors Hollywood has used it as a trope you
know throughout you know, you even look at the movie
seven you know, What's in the box? What's in the box?
And you know you see that, you think you think
to yourself, well, how how many other of these individuals, uh,
(21:21):
you know, have some kind of fascination like this. I
even think of like the gainsviol Ripper, where there was
a decapitation involved in that. I think that that was
you know, sexually motivated, but I don't know that that
was necessarily that probably doesn't fit into this category most
of the time. I believe that most of these people
(21:42):
have to have access to remains for a protracted period
of time, and I think that that does put them
into the realm of somebody that that would you know,
fancy themself a lover of the dead if you will.
You see this, uh played out with with Dahmer obviously,
(22:03):
and of course with Gain with the grave robbing. Not
all these people that rob graves though, have a sexual
proclivity for the dead. You know, there's there's we could
probably do an entire episode on on the idea of
why do people rob graves? Yeah, yeah, and you know
(22:25):
there's uh, there's one category in here that I think
and this kind of goes outside of the the the
necromaniac uh piece. We dave, you and I have covered
several of these cases now where people are dismembering bodies
(22:45):
these funeral homes and other people, and they're selling the
parts for medical experiments. All right, and that's a dismemberment, okay,
So you they see the body as having some kind
of utility financial, you know, utility, uh for for them.
I don't know what category that would necessarily fit into.
(23:09):
It's not aggressive, it's certainly not not defensive, it's not offensive.
So that might be an entirely different group that you
and I, you know, just sitting there chatting. I'm I'm
thinking about this. I feel like, you know, we're just
a couple of friends sitting here having coffee, you know,
and thinking about we may have discovered an entire different
(23:30):
category of people that have utility for human remains. And
you don't you hate to think of it that way,
but they're you know, they're breaking up bodies in order
to sell the parts. So and I don't I guess
that could be sexualized, but I don't think that, you know,
they're sexualizing the dead. They they're just trying to make
a buck real quick. So maybe there's oh, I got
(23:51):
it here, here's our term. We're going to use economic
economic dismemberment. How does that sound?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
There? You go? Now, now you got me. Okay, now
you got me, nomic dismemberment.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I'm making any lord a mercy. Yeah. So you know
you've got you've got these these groups of people that
that are out there that engage in this behavior. It's
hard to know where the line is I think, uh
uh for for these people, uh, you know. And of
course if you look at gen Gen used used human remains.
(24:24):
They had utility for him. You know, he's making you know,
he's making utensils, you know, out of human remains. Uh.
You know, the skull cap, the calvarium itself was being
used as a bowl to either eat soup or cereal
out of.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Or do you think you were really using them? They
weren't just there for display for him.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I don't know, That's that's an excellent question. Uh. There
was a chair I think that he had that famously
was tanned hide of humans. He had the you know,
I've heard it referred to as the nipple suit or
the nipple jacket that he had, that he had created
the this guy had. You know, if he wasn't so twisted,
(25:02):
he had a great life he could have made, you know,
I don't know, being a tanner or something somewhere, or
a furniture maker, but he chose to go down this
very very dark road. And it's just being in contact
with these elements and thinking about, you know, what in
the world would drive a person to do this. I
have no idea, but I do know that as dark
(25:27):
as this gets, there is one more group, and that
group has to do with I'll give you a hint messaging.
(25:50):
Some time ago, Dave, you and I had discussion about
it seems like methodologies of execution or something. An episode
that we did that was like that. And I want
to kind of take us back in time real quick,
because this has direct bearing on this next category of
(26:10):
just memory that we're going to talk about. Back when
I guess it was sixteen fifty No, it had to
be before that. Give me one quick second. Let me
let me reference this. It was sixteen forty nine, Charles,
(26:34):
the first of England. King Charles was taken into what's
called the Banqueting House, which is not too far away
from Parliament, and he was let out into a scaffle
and he had his head chopped off. Well, his head
(26:57):
was chopped off essentially the direction of several several people
that you know that found him guilty of a variety
of things, offenses against the English people. And but chief
among these was Oliver Cromwell. And Oliver Cromwell had led,
(27:18):
had led this kind of puritanical revolt that you know
where he goes through, and you know it it ended
in you know, they had a horrific civil war, civil
wars of course, or the most brutal wars that you
can possibly have, and even going over into Ireland and
killing people you know that were Catholic, and you know,
(27:39):
and going up to Scotland and killing people up there
because their religion and all this sort of thing. Well,
King Charles's son, King Charles the Second, was actually spirited
away and he lived in exile, and Oliver Cromwell the
(28:00):
Lord Protector of of Great Britain or England, and his
son did too. His sons uh succeeded him well. When
the son died. King Charles the Second came back and promptly.
What King Charles the Second did was they dug Oliver
(28:20):
Cromwell's body up. Wow. They took his corpse and cut
his head off, and I think they dipped it in tar,
and they put it on a spike and put it
out for public displays so that everybody everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Could see it. They're gonna people are gonna walk by
and see this dismembered head on a stick and just
walk by and say, hey, Chuck, yea.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
They may have or Charlie, I don't know. Uh. Uh,
you know, oh Charlie. Uh. And again you think about
that generation of people, you know, and that that was
certainly a stark reminder of what happens. Uh. And I'm
not saying that, you know, Charles first was an angel.
(29:15):
He certainly wasn't by any stretch of imagination. Cromwell was
pretty evil though, And they sent you know, they certainly
sent a message and they understood messaging back then, Dave,
It's no different than today. This still, this still goes on.
It has gone on for a long long time. I
(29:35):
think that this is something that is as old as time.
You know, we we see all the many how many
terrible horror movies have we seen over the years where
you'll see a skull sitting up on a stick, you know,
and automatically you see the skull and the stick. You know,
something's afoot here or something I had here, you know,
(29:57):
so you know, you know, take care of where you go.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Communication is dis memory. I love that title. Communication dismemberment.
You are communicating when somebody drives of your driveway and
they start seeing heads on you know. Yeah, you're you're
telling me something right there. I better have a really
good reason for being here.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah. Yeah, if you think that the old the old
sign that says you're currently being watched, you're currently under
camera surveillance. If you think that works, let's grab a
couple of skulls and put them out here. Yeah. So
this this next category that that we're going to speak about,
and then it's a final category, is called communication dismemberment.
(30:38):
There are any number of things that have happened over
the years, you know, from and this is kind of interesting.
You people that have been kidnapped where and this does
happen where they will cut off a finger and they
will send it to people that's not just something that
(31:00):
you that you see in in the movies necessarily. Uh.
One of my favorite movies, of course, The Big Lebowski.
They send the pinky toe with the green paint green
toenail paint. But yeah, in all seriousness, you do send
a message. Uh. This is unfortunately, I think probably for
(31:22):
for us what we will really you know, know this
are it's we can reflect on. This is how it's
used in Latin America currently by many of the drug cartels.
There's a scene in I don't know if it's I
think it's one of Thecario movies where they're down south
(31:43):
of the border, and uh, Del Torrio's character, you know,
makes mention of the fact that and I might be
getting this mixed up. But when you see it, when
you see a body, they're not necessarily guilty of anything.
It's just a local that they're sending a message. And
it will be children there too, that you know where
(32:05):
the bodies are dismemberment and put up for display, that
we control this area.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
It makes sense, Joe. Some people need to be told
directly who's doing what to who. And I'm gonna be
honest if I'm a visitor, if I am in If
I'm in Central America on vacation and I'm tooling out
to my cabana and I see heads that are on
the end of a stick on my path, I'm going
(32:34):
to turn around and go back. I'm going to realize
this is not my vacation hotspot, and I will leave. Now.
For those living there, it means something totally different. It means, well,
your brother and sister are now dead, You're next. I mean, yeah,
that's what they're doing. They're communicating. And I'm not trying
to be flippant, but that's what they're doing. They're communicating
(32:55):
with body parts.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah. I think one of the more strike things that
you know, we covered. Do you remember we covered the
Lord of Mercy. What was the case? It was just
across a border where they were they had a huge
rendering down plant of where they were getting rid of bodies,
and people knew what that what that spot was being
(33:19):
utilized for. But I think that one of the cases
that really jumps out to mind, particularly the American mind
or other travelers from abroad that wind up, you know,
along the Yukatan coast, was this butchery that took place
in Cancun, you know, because so many people. It would
(33:39):
be hard to find somebody I think probably in my
friend group that hasn't been to Cancun cosmol because it's
an easy trip. It used to be really cheap, you know,
to go down there. David got to tell you, I
don't know. I don't know if if I'm going to
be hopping on a plane to go down there because
it's so it seems to be so unstable.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Let me give you the opening line from a reporter
out of the area. It says this arrests made in
Cancun after five dismembered bodies found in taxi, three other
victims dumped in a shallow grave. Prosecutors said Monday they
have arrested six members of a drug gang in the
Mexican resort of Cancun that allegedly killed and hacked up
(34:26):
five people with a machete and dumped three other victims
in a shallow grave. Now they don't say it here,
but do you think that those bodies that were dumped
in a shallow grave were chopped up or were they
just killed and dismissed?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
No, I don't think that there's I don't everything that
is done with these people has a meaning. To it.
You know, you're sending a message like that, and again
this goes to mutilation. Yeah, we had you know, we
had talked about what, you know, what was done with
the black Dahlia. It wasn't just enough to bisect her,
(35:05):
but they cut a smile into her face. I don't
know what kind of message that's actually sending to somebody
that's some kind of psychosexual you know thing. This is
something different though, because it's like, you know, we all wonder.
I think I know that we all do. People will say, well,
what actually happens when we die? This is you know,
what happens to us, not just you know, on spiritual level,
(35:28):
what happens to our bodies? And what can you know?
Because it's like, we're going to disfigure you so badly
that your family is not going to be able to
view you, or if they do, that's going to sink
in and it's going to be part and parcel of
the story that you leave behind. We opened this episode,
you know, talking about, you know, the stories that that
(35:49):
our bodies leave behind. But Dave, this is not just
merely limited to Latin America, you know, Mexico, Central America,
those places. This is actually you know this whole, this whole,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You're trying to find a polite way to say something
that is not polite and has no lightweight.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Joe, there's really not this has visited our shores, now, okay,
because you just I mean just up. I think it
was in New York MS thirteen up there. We've got
you know, we've got these these cases. I think that
it was for uh, for four murders, you know that
took place at the hands of MS thirteen. And you
(36:36):
know it's not just them, it's it's their henchmen that
are involved in this in this as well. And this
is this is messaging. I remember, you know, talking to
a few people up up in New York. They are
in law enforcement in various areas of the state, and
they were expressing, expressing how simple life used to be
when they were just dealing with local gangs. And this
(36:58):
is a totally different animal, you know, they have to
deal with now with these international games that are in
this environment, and they do business in a completely different
way than we do in our American mindset. The messaging here,
you know, is that this is our territory, this is
what we do. This is our industry, this is our business,
(37:19):
and woe betide the individual that crosses our path, because
this is going to happen to them. You know, if
you're willing to do these sorts of things, if you're
willing to actually just destroy a body in death, there's
not too many other things I think that you would
(37:42):
not be willing to do. Kill the innocent, and certainly
a scar community and scar families forever and ever with dismemberment.
Though it is a wide variety of rationales for people
that enter into to this practice, it's hard to believe
(38:04):
that people kind of move forward and jump off of
this precipice into the great unknown, because until you're around
elements of a body that have had, as we say
in the more, had the cold steel put to them,
it's the like of something that most can even begin
(38:25):
to imagine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body
bags
Body dies, but Joseph's gotten more. The downside I think
of human remains, particularly when they are dismembered human remains,
is the fact that without the entire body, you can't
(00:22):
tell the full story. And so many of these cases
that pop up in the news or that we as
practitioners have worked over the course of our lives, can
be very frustrating because sometimes you'll only find one part,
and just like in life, you can't tell the full
(00:45):
story of someone just because of a single element. It
goes much deeper and there's always that fragment bit, not
just in the sense from a scientific standpoint, but also
in the narrative of someone's life. This is going to
be part two of our discussion regarding the different types
(01:12):
of dismemberment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags.
We're back at it, Brother Dave, We're back at it.
We've talked about three different types. There's five, and in
the first segment that we cut the other day with
(01:36):
the first three, we you know, we kind of touched
I'm not going to say lightly, because it wasn't lightly,
but we went into the different types from that perspective,
and of course the most common. The most common is
what's referred to as defensive dismemberment, right where I think
(01:57):
that many people that engage in this behavior, they suddenly
have this epiphantal moment with oh my Lord, what in
the world have I gotten myself into? And they're trying to,
you know, split the body up so that they can
get as much distance between themselves and the body and
maybe deposit it somewhere, just to get away from those
(02:22):
things that are going to tie them back to some
kind of horrendous case. And listen, there are actually cases
out there day where the person did not necessarily have
a hand in the death of the individual. And I'm
actually reflective right now. And forgive me, I can't remember
(02:44):
the guy's name, but there was the guy that was
the attorney and his dad is also kind of a
defract or, however you want to put it, judge. And
they had moved to Florida from Michigan, and the dad
was like up in the seventies. The son and the
dad were doing coke together. Oh yeah, I remember remember that,
(03:06):
and that the son panicked. I think that the dad
had a massive heart attack, which doesn't surprise me. I
mean he's he's up in age and he's snorting coke
with his son, and the son actually dismember the dad
and the head is gone forever and ever. Amen, they
(03:27):
still haven't located the head. And he was charged, I think,
and I remember covering that trial on long crime. He was.
He was charged in the case, but he was only
found guilty of you know, abuse of a corpse, I think,
is what it came down to. So not all of
these cases actually involve, you know, a homicide, unlike the
(03:50):
case we're just coming off of with Brian Walsh right
where he tried to sell everybody on this idea that
what was it? He said? He said, I wanted to
spare my children. I wanted to spare my children the
horror of their mother having died. Oh okay, cool, So
you're gonna chop up your their mother and deposit her
(04:12):
body all over the place. What a humanitarian you are? Right?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
You are? You know, that mental giant, you know coming
up with that as a game plan, because if you know,
his wife dies sudden adult death syndrome and instead of
calling nine to one one where they could come in
and take a look and figure out what happened, no,
he doesn't. That that's the normal call people make, because hey,
if she died in the bed, Joe, if she dies
(04:37):
there and she's just laying in the bed sudden adult
death syndrome, then by golly, uh, there there's nothing he
can worry about, nothing he has to worry about. They
will come in, they will examine and figure out. Wow,
but what he chooses to do, I mean, if you
believe his story, see now, if you don't believe his story,
(04:58):
then what happens of him cutting up his life on
a is just beyond the pale. You know, it's just
none of his reasoning stands up. But as we've gone
through these, Joe, these dismemberments, you remember at Crime Con Orlando,
when we get an entire segment on dismemberments, and you know,
I don't know if there are more happening or if
(05:18):
we're just hearing about more, because there is so much,
you know, uh, so many people are creating content now
online that we hear about these cases. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Well, it's it's listen. I mean, look, I'm chief among
centers here, all right. It is it's something that's obviously
entered into our conversations on a regular basis and listen,
it's it's salacious. I mean, I'll have to admit it.
But you know, look, if don't, don't don't throw stones
(05:51):
at the glass house, because everything in true crime can
be silacious, all right, you just got to pick your poison, right, right,
and so but I think I think that what kicks
it up a notch is that it's how the dead
or treated, you know, after the event. You know that
someone would go to this extent because I got to
tell you if someone came up to me and made
(06:14):
the argument, they were like, well, they killed them, so
what you know, what would stop them from going to
the next step. I'm going to tell you what would
stop them from going to the next step. Because to
kill someone, just say, if you shot them, you executed them,
shot them in the back of the head. That's okay, Yeah,
you committed a homicide. Right. That's completely different than Hey,
(06:39):
where's Papa's carpenter saw out in the you know, out
in the shed. Let me go get that and let
me get a tarp, let me get all this other
coutremm that I need in order to you know, to
break down this body. Completely different set of circumstances here,
all right, So yeah, there is there is actually a
darker place you can go to.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Well, could we not blame this on television and video
games because that used to work, you know, we used
to hear that all the time when you and I
were growing up. It's like the reason these juvenile linquins
are doing all this is because of television and music
of movies is desensitizing them to all of these things.
And it's like, a man, you have opened my eyes
to the history of crazy murders and the infliction of pain.
(07:28):
I'll never forget what you showed me on the case
where the in Great Britain where the body was found
under a parking lot, remember, and oh yeah, and you
explained who was that Richard? Thank you God that park
Yeah yeah, and when? And I will encourage you friends
to look for that one Richard. The third was an
episode if you haven't heard it, where Joe Scott. I
(07:50):
learned so much, you know, on that one episode because
it was stuff I'd never heard before, and it was evil.
I mean, it was just.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Well you know what they did to his body afterwards,
I think, and you know and that again you've got
all kinds of intrigues that are involved there, and you
know the crown, the crown that was eventually going to
go to Henry the Eight's father, you know, the tutors
after they invaded. But I got to tell you, and
it goes without saying. You know, evil has always existed,
(08:23):
It's just it exists in various degrees. And we can
kind of see that played out. You know. We we
had talked about, you know, the defensive dismemberment, and then
we've got this aggressive dismemberment that comes where you've got
an individual like Chander you know, Chandler Halderson that's ripping
(08:44):
his parents to pieces. And it's not he he killed
them obviously, but there was so much there's so much
psychopathology there about him being held accountable in his life
about son, you need to get a job. What are
you doing? He's lying to him. He building this thing out,
and you can kind of see how he treats the bodies,
(09:04):
you know, afterwards, of both his mama and his daddy,
you know, and you think about that, and you think about, well, what,
you know, what child is this? You know, you begin
to think about that, uh, and how he just kind
of rips him the shreds and trying to feign go
around feigning you know, well have you seen my mom
(09:26):
and dad? I can't find him anywhere. You've seen my mommy.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Year old idiot.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
You know, it's it's ridiculous, and you know you and
then you've got the I think this other element here
that we we had talked about the idea of offensive dismemberment,
and yes, it's offensive, but this is offensive in the
sense that it's not just it's not just the the killing,
(10:00):
it's the dismemberment and control over these individuals. You know,
there's that that connotation of dominance. Uh we I think
that should business is the yeah, yeah, you know, she's
she's a prime example because she was actually she had
(10:22):
dominated this poor kid. And I say kid, he's you know, grown,
grown man. But kind of the you know, PSTA resistance.
It's it's she's actually engaging with him throughout this entire
thing and dominating him to have sex, you know, even
going into the post mortem state. Though I don't think
(10:42):
that that's classic necrophilia necessarily, it's it's kind of playing
out this long stream of things because if you you know,
if you go back to to this young woman, the
mother of two, that we had talked about that on
the tender date and you know her the guy that
(11:04):
you know that goes and takes her out, you know,
they go to a ball game. Then afterwards he kills
her and begins to you know, cut her to pieces
in a bathtub in her own home with a limb saw.
And you know, again that's that's the idea of you know,
the some people come prepared I think, to do these
sorts of things. You know, you think about we had
(11:28):
talked yesterday about the black Dahlia. That person was prepared
that did the bisection on her. They had the right
tools in this case with a young mother out in Seattle.
The guy just used an instrument of opportunity. But I
can tell you this, we're still not done yet. We
still have two more categories to talk about, and trust me,
(11:54):
they are as horrific as the first three. You know, Dave,
Sometimes in when you work in forensics and you get
(12:20):
to meet people nationally, not just like in your own
little jurisdiction, because you know, we're kind of enslaved to
our jurisdiction that's where we work. You know, you don't
you don't get out. Don't get out of the house much,
all right. So if you go to a national meeting,
or if you interact with people, for let's say you're
put on a national task course like I was years ago,
(12:45):
sometimes you'll come across some of the most fascinating types
of people. And I guess it was in ninety four
ninety five I found myself eating a steakhouse with a
huge group of people in my field, and seated across
the table from me, Uh, was a guy that that
(13:09):
I think a lot of because he's brilliant. Off the charts.
I'll put to you this way. This guy is so smart.
He actually went got his MD because he was a
forensic pathologist. And then after the fact, he went back
and got a PhD focusing in medical history. Wow, and
(13:33):
began teaching at University of Michigan Medical School. And I
love you know, I love history and so but his
one of his big claims to fame was fact that
he's he's the guy that was tasked with doing all
of the examinations on Damer's victims.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Oh and he was.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
He was the chief medical examiner for Milwaukee County.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, And so Uh. You know, when I sat there
across the table from Jeff Jensen and I began to
listen to him talk about, you know, in that what
they found in that dirty, filthy apartment there in Milwaukee, which,
by the way, that building no longer exists for good reason.
You know, they tore that damn thing down, just like
(14:18):
they did with Gacy, and they tore his house down
to but you know that that residue still exists, and
certainly I think that probably with Domer there will always
be a stain of that. But you know, he he was,
He's actually an individual that is a necromaniac. Can you
(14:44):
explain that?
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Because that term in and of itself tells me a lot,
But not being in the field, Okay, most of us
don't recognize. We know, necrophilia is having conjugal relations with
a dead body, correct.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, yeah, it is. And there's a real dark side
obviously to this, because well they're they're they're absenting the
I don't know, the the the life so that they
(15:20):
can take the body and do with the body what
they want. Okay, And here here's the real, you know,
kind of grotesque thing. There's so much to choose from, right,
it's like a buffet. They're still involved in this behavior,
even to the point where bodies will be in states
(15:42):
of decay and still engaging in this behavior, which is
one of the more fascinating things about again not necessarily
my my Baileywick, but you have to begin to talk
about things like the psychopathology here. You know, after you
have taken a body and essentially uh, you know, particulated
(16:04):
the body, you you have to make it sustainable or
maintain it to the point so that it will suit
your needs. It's the ultimate you know, use the term
I think in the first episode of objectification, you know,
where a body is actually taken and turned into turned
(16:25):
into a plaything, and that you know, that's what happened
with with Dahmer uh and all of these young men
that he essentially you know killed up there in that apartment. Uh,
you know, bits were everywhere, you know, and he he
actually uh kind of chronicled his activities. There were a
(16:48):
number of polaroid photographs that he had taken back in
the day of polaroids of states of the body. You know.
I remember one that really stands out. There's a young
man's in a bath tub and he's completely. You know,
there's no other way to put it. He's field dressed.
You know, he's split right down the middle. He's absent
of all of his organs. He's just laying there. Uh.
(17:10):
And then you know you think about the uh he
gets into this this sphere. It's it's like with with
with this necromaniac dismemberment, there is not just objectifying the body,
but there's an element with some of these cases that
(17:34):
goes to ingestion of bodies as well. You know where
you know with Domer uh, you know, he was famously
known as Cannibal and of course another another you know,
famous or infamous resident of Wisconsin is going to be
ed Geen and the same thing, you know, kind of
(17:54):
applied to him. Though he was not in the pure sense,
I think he was not necessarily a serial killer, but
he truly was a necrophile because he was a graver robber.
Now he did kill people, you know, but you know
with Dohmer, you know, Dahmer started stacking the bodies. Man,
he was going out and looking for living subjects, and
(18:17):
you know the whole idea of drilling holes into people's
brains and are into the skulls and injecting them with bleach,
because you want to create a zombie, you know, somebody
that you can put your arm around and hold on
to them, you know, like some kind of doll or something.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you think ed Geen we did an entire episode
on him, But do you think that ed Geen has
a lot more victims that we don't know about?
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah? I think that. I think that that could be
a possibility. The only thing that for me, you know,
when you look where Plainfield, Wisconsin is still to this day,
all right, and I urge anybody to check it out
on the map. It's not like he's living in the
greater Milwaukee area, okay, because and he you know, old
(19:03):
old Ed didn't get out of house much, okay, you know,
and we all know the story about his mom and
you know all the stuff that you know of course
that that book Psycho was based on. You know, where
he's got this dependency upon his mother. He didn't leave
her side much. And I would think that in a
population as small as Plainfield, in that little county up there,
(19:26):
you you would really notice if there were a lot
of people going missing, you know, that would be associated
with a serial event. Now, they did fun items of
clothing around the house. I think that there were see
if that's right, I think that there was young girls
(19:47):
clothing that was found in the house. And I don't
know that they were ever able to specifically tie that back,
you know, to to to anybody. Wo. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Let me ask you something if you told me something
that I hadn't. This goes back a couple of years ago.
We were talking about Bundy and you mentioned Bundy going
back to the bodies as they were deteriorating and putting
make up on them and dressing them, and uh, that
was I thought that was one of those things that
was kind of added to the story to tell around
a campfire, you know, about the guy with the hook
(20:27):
for a hand, you know, and she that's what I
thought that was. I didn't realize until you told me
that it was a real thing that you know, Bundy
was into necrophilia. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
And I think that a lot of these serial killers
are to a great degree, you know, and I know
that you know many people, many people will say that
the necromaniac dismemberment is something that is you hear the
most about it because it's so over the top even
in the realm of dismemberment. It's so over the top
(20:59):
and ors Hollywood has used it as a trope you
know throughout you know, you even look at the movie
seven you know, What's in the box? What's in the box?
And you know you see that, you think you think
to yourself, well, how how many other of these individuals, uh,
(21:21):
you know, have some kind of fascination like this. I
even think of like the gainsviol Ripper, where there was
a decapitation involved in that. I think that that was
you know, sexually motivated, but I don't know that that
was necessarily that probably doesn't fit into this category most
of the time. I believe that most of these people
(21:42):
have to have access to remains for a protracted period
of time, and I think that that does put them
into the realm of somebody that that would you know,
fancy themself a lover of the dead if you will.
You see this, uh played out with with Dahmer obviously,
(22:03):
and of course with Gain with the grave robbing. Not
all these people that rob graves though, have a sexual
proclivity for the dead. You know, there's there's we could
probably do an entire episode on on the idea of
why do people rob graves? Yeah, yeah, and you know
(22:25):
there's uh, there's one category in here that I think
and this kind of goes outside of the the the
necromaniac uh piece. We dave, you and I have covered
several of these cases now where people are dismembering bodies
(22:45):
these funeral homes and other people, and they're selling the
parts for medical experiments. All right, and that's a dismemberment, okay,
So you they see the body as having some kind
of utility financial, you know, utility, uh for for them.
I don't know what category that would necessarily fit into.
(23:09):
It's not aggressive, it's certainly not not defensive, it's not offensive.
So that might be an entirely different group that you
and I, you know, just sitting there chatting. I'm I'm
thinking about this. I feel like, you know, we're just
a couple of friends sitting here having coffee, you know,
and thinking about we may have discovered an entire different
(23:30):
category of people that have utility for human remains. And
you don't you hate to think of it that way,
but they're you know, they're breaking up bodies in order
to sell the parts. So and I don't I guess
that could be sexualized, but I don't think that, you know,
they're sexualizing the dead. They they're just trying to make
a buck real quick. So maybe there's oh, I got
(23:51):
it here, here's our term. We're going to use economic
economic dismemberment. How does that sound?
Speaker 2 (23:56):
There? You go? Now, now you got me. Okay, now
you got me, nomic dismemberment.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
I'm making any lord a mercy. Yeah. So you know
you've got you've got these these groups of people that
that are out there that engage in this behavior. It's
hard to know where the line is I think, uh
uh for for these people, uh, you know. And of
course if you look at gen Gen used used human remains.
(24:24):
They had utility for him. You know, he's making you know,
he's making utensils, you know, out of human remains. Uh.
You know, the skull cap, the calvarium itself was being
used as a bowl to either eat soup or cereal
out of.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Or do you think you were really using them? They
weren't just there for display for him.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I don't know, That's that's an excellent question. Uh. There
was a chair I think that he had that famously
was tanned hide of humans. He had the you know,
I've heard it referred to as the nipple suit or
the nipple jacket that he had, that he had created
the this guy had. You know, if he wasn't so twisted,
(25:02):
he had a great life he could have made, you know,
I don't know, being a tanner or something somewhere, or
a furniture maker, but he chose to go down this
very very dark road. And it's just being in contact
with these elements and thinking about, you know, what in
the world would drive a person to do this. I
have no idea, but I do know that as dark
(25:27):
as this gets, there is one more group, and that
group has to do with I'll give you a hint messaging.
(25:50):
Some time ago, Dave, you and I had discussion about
it seems like methodologies of execution or something. An episode
that we did that was like that. And I want
to kind of take us back in time real quick,
because this has direct bearing on this next category of
(26:10):
just memory that we're going to talk about. Back when
I guess it was sixteen fifty No, it had to
be before that. Give me one quick second. Let me
let me reference this. It was sixteen forty nine, Charles,
(26:34):
the first of England. King Charles was taken into what's
called the Banqueting House, which is not too far away
from Parliament, and he was let out into a scaffle
and he had his head chopped off. Well, his head
(26:57):
was chopped off essentially the direction of several several people
that you know that found him guilty of a variety
of things, offenses against the English people. And but chief
among these was Oliver Cromwell. And Oliver Cromwell had led,
(27:18):
had led this kind of puritanical revolt that you know
where he goes through, and you know it it ended
in you know, they had a horrific civil war, civil
wars of course, or the most brutal wars that you
can possibly have, and even going over into Ireland and
killing people you know that were Catholic, and you know,
(27:39):
and going up to Scotland and killing people up there
because their religion and all this sort of thing. Well,
King Charles's son, King Charles the Second, was actually spirited
away and he lived in exile, and Oliver Cromwell the
(28:00):
Lord Protector of of Great Britain or England, and his
son did too. His sons uh succeeded him well. When
the son died. King Charles the Second came back and promptly.
What King Charles the Second did was they dug Oliver
(28:20):
Cromwell's body up. Wow. They took his corpse and cut
his head off, and I think they dipped it in tar,
and they put it on a spike and put it
out for public displays so that everybody everybody.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Could see it. They're gonna people are gonna walk by
and see this dismembered head on a stick and just
walk by and say, hey, Chuck, yea.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
They may have or Charlie, I don't know. Uh. Uh,
you know, oh Charlie. Uh. And again you think about
that generation of people, you know, and that that was
certainly a stark reminder of what happens. Uh. And I'm
not saying that, you know, Charles first was an angel.
(29:15):
He certainly wasn't by any stretch of imagination. Cromwell was
pretty evil though, And they sent you know, they certainly
sent a message and they understood messaging back then, Dave,
It's no different than today. This still, this still goes on.
It has gone on for a long long time. I
(29:35):
think that this is something that is as old as time.
You know, we we see all the many how many
terrible horror movies have we seen over the years where
you'll see a skull sitting up on a stick, you know,
and automatically you see the skull and the stick. You know,
something's afoot here or something I had here, you know,
(29:57):
so you know, you know, take care of where you go.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Communication is dis memory. I love that title. Communication dismemberment.
You are communicating when somebody drives of your driveway and
they start seeing heads on you know. Yeah, you're you're
telling me something right there. I better have a really
good reason for being here.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Yeah. Yeah, if you think that the old the old
sign that says you're currently being watched, you're currently under
camera surveillance. If you think that works, let's grab a
couple of skulls and put them out here. Yeah. So
this this next category that that we're going to speak about,
and then it's a final category, is called communication dismemberment.
(30:38):
There are any number of things that have happened over
the years, you know, from and this is kind of interesting.
You people that have been kidnapped where and this does
happen where they will cut off a finger and they
will send it to people that's not just something that
(31:00):
you that you see in in the movies necessarily. Uh.
One of my favorite movies, of course, The Big Lebowski.
They send the pinky toe with the green paint green
toenail paint. But yeah, in all seriousness, you do send
a message. Uh. This is unfortunately, I think probably for
(31:22):
for us what we will really you know, know this
are it's we can reflect on. This is how it's
used in Latin America currently by many of the drug cartels.
There's a scene in I don't know if it's I
think it's one of Thecario movies where they're down south
(31:43):
of the border, and uh, Del Torrio's character, you know,
makes mention of the fact that and I might be
getting this mixed up. But when you see it, when
you see a body, they're not necessarily guilty of anything.
It's just a local that they're sending a message. And
it will be children there too, that you know where
(32:05):
the bodies are dismemberment and put up for display, that
we control this area.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
It makes sense, Joe. Some people need to be told
directly who's doing what to who. And I'm gonna be
honest if I'm a visitor, if I am in If
I'm in Central America on vacation and I'm tooling out
to my cabana and I see heads that are on
the end of a stick on my path, I'm going
(32:34):
to turn around and go back. I'm going to realize
this is not my vacation hotspot, and I will leave. Now.
For those living there, it means something totally different. It means, well,
your brother and sister are now dead, You're next. I mean, yeah,
that's what they're doing. They're communicating. And I'm not trying
to be flippant, but that's what they're doing. They're communicating
(32:55):
with body parts.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah. I think one of the more strike things that
you know, we covered. Do you remember we covered the
Lord of Mercy. What was the case? It was just
across a border where they were they had a huge
rendering down plant of where they were getting rid of bodies,
and people knew what that what that spot was being
(33:19):
utilized for. But I think that one of the cases
that really jumps out to mind, particularly the American mind
or other travelers from abroad that wind up, you know,
along the Yukatan coast, was this butchery that took place
in Cancun, you know, because so many people. It would
(33:39):
be hard to find somebody I think probably in my
friend group that hasn't been to Cancun cosmol because it's
an easy trip. It used to be really cheap, you know,
to go down there. David got to tell you, I
don't know. I don't know if if I'm going to
be hopping on a plane to go down there because
it's so it seems to be so unstable.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Let me give you the opening line from a reporter
out of the area. It says this arrests made in
Cancun after five dismembered bodies found in taxi, three other
victims dumped in a shallow grave. Prosecutors said Monday they
have arrested six members of a drug gang in the
Mexican resort of Cancun that allegedly killed and hacked up
(34:26):
five people with a machete and dumped three other victims
in a shallow grave. Now they don't say it here,
but do you think that those bodies that were dumped
in a shallow grave were chopped up or were they
just killed and dismissed?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
No, I don't think that there's I don't everything that
is done with these people has a meaning. To it.
You know, you're sending a message like that, and again
this goes to mutilation. Yeah, we had you know, we
had talked about what, you know, what was done with
the black Dahlia. It wasn't just enough to bisect her,
(35:05):
but they cut a smile into her face. I don't
know what kind of message that's actually sending to somebody
that's some kind of psychosexual you know thing. This is
something different though, because it's like, you know, we all wonder.
I think I know that we all do. People will say, well,
what actually happens when we die? This is you know,
what happens to us, not just you know, on spiritual level,
(35:28):
what happens to our bodies? And what can you know?
Because it's like, we're going to disfigure you so badly
that your family is not going to be able to
view you, or if they do, that's going to sink
in and it's going to be part and parcel of
the story that you leave behind. We opened this episode,
you know, talking about, you know, the stories that that
(35:49):
our bodies leave behind. But Dave, this is not just
merely limited to Latin America, you know, Mexico, Central America,
those places. This is actually you know this whole, this whole,
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You're trying to find a polite way to say something
that is not polite and has no lightweight.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Joe, there's really not this has visited our shores, now, okay,
because you just I mean just up. I think it
was in New York MS thirteen up there. We've got
you know, we've got these these cases. I think that
it was for uh, for four murders, you know that
took place at the hands of MS thirteen. And you
(36:36):
know it's not just them, it's it's their henchmen that
are involved in this in this as well. And this
is this is messaging. I remember, you know, talking to
a few people up up in New York. They are
in law enforcement in various areas of the state, and
they were expressing, expressing how simple life used to be
when they were just dealing with local gangs. And this
(36:58):
is a totally different animal, you know, they have to
deal with now with these international games that are in
this environment, and they do business in a completely different
way than we do in our American mindset. The messaging here,
you know, is that this is our territory, this is
what we do. This is our industry, this is our business,
(37:19):
and woe betide the individual that crosses our path, because
this is going to happen to them. You know, if
you're willing to do these sorts of things, if you're
willing to actually just destroy a body in death, there's
not too many other things I think that you would
(37:42):
not be willing to do. Kill the innocent, and certainly
a scar community and scar families forever and ever with dismemberment.
Though it is a wide variety of rationales for people
that enter into to this practice, it's hard to believe
(38:04):
that people kind of move forward and jump off of
this precipice into the great unknown, because until you're around
elements of a body that have had, as we say
in the more, had the cold steel put to them,
it's the like of something that most can even begin
(38:25):
to imagine. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body
bags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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