January 1, 2026 • 46 mins
Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" - Final Four - Top Downloads 2025
4. DELUSIONAL.PATHETIC. AVERAGE. YOU ARE NOTHING. FAILED RAPPER: BRYAN KOHBERGBER
3. Shocking Discovery: Forensic Anthropology and the Suicide of Gabby Petito's Killer
2. EXPLOSIVE PROOF! Maddie and Kaylee Fought Back Against Cowardly Attacker
1. SHOCKING TRUTH! XANA Caught BK And Fought The Devil!
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the four most downloaded episodes of 2025, including:
- The victim impact statements in the Bryan Kohberger sentencing
- The forensic anthropology helping discover what happened to Gabby Petito's killer, Brian Laundrie
- The proof that Maddie, Kaylee, and Xana fought their killer to the death.
Transcript Highlights
00:00.29 Introduction: Top Four Shows 2025
05:09.62 Alivea Goncalves comments to Kohberger
10:30.82 Goncalves family impact on coverage
15:14.87 Forensic Anthropology - Brian Laundrie
20:00.57 Laundrie parents went right to his body
25:04.93 Kohberger murders
30:14.65 Explanation of attack
35:21.98 Butt of Kay-bar used as hammer
39:55.41 "I'm going to help you"
45:31.86 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Bodybags, but Joseph's gotten more.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Here we are, we're going to be. This is episode
the second episode of our top ten list for twenty
twenty five. And again before I name the final four,
I would like just for a moment again to thank
you all of my friends out there that have supported
(00:28):
brother David and myself through our journey in twenty twenty
five on Bodybacks. And I'm sure if if twenty twenty
six is going to be anything like twenty twenty five was,
we'll have much much more to talk about. With that said,
(00:50):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and for the end of twenty
twenty five, this is Bodybacks. Well, I'd have to say
I would have to say that if I could, I
don't know, give kind of a visual image here, I'd
(01:12):
say that the last four are our top four episodes
for most downloaded over the course of twenty twenty five.
I'd have to say that it's a great big exclamation
point on a series of cases, or a series of
events rather that seem like they would never end, and
(01:34):
they came to an abrupt end, and we had more answers,
certainly at the end of the year than we did
than when we started. I think that in any criminal investigation,
and certainly with forensics, you want that kind of a
culmative event, you know that. And again, we don't use
(01:55):
the word closure on this show because we believe in it.
It's not something that's real, but at least it has
given us an idea and certainly the families that are
involved in these cases, an idea as to which way
the wind is blowing and maybe to a certain extent,
what the future holes man.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
You know, Joe, I think that one of the interesting
tidbits on the program this year was the amount of
time not just you and I, but crime coverage in
general spent on the Brian Coberger case. And you know,
(02:37):
there's a couple of moments in crime where you kind
of remember where you were when something happened, like the O. J.
Simpson trial when they said not guilty, and you know,
if it doesn't fit, you must have quit those types
of things. And with regard to one of the biggest
cases this year, the Idaho murders, was the sentencing of
(03:01):
Brian Coberger. But it wasn't just the sentencing. A lot
of us were hoping that at sentencing there would be allocution.
He would actually be forced to say what he did.
And it may be why, but at least what he did,
you know, specifically walking in the house, going doing what
we wanted to hear that. I felt like it was old.
(03:23):
I felt like that I cannot believe they didn't make
him do that Joe as part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
On one hand, and you know my thoughts about this,
I agree with it because the template that always have
in my mind about any kind of alocution always goes
back to BTK, where he was compelled by the courts
in Kansas to say specifically what he had done. And
there's all kinds of legal ease involved in this, and
how you know they say, you know, there's several people
(03:53):
that have said over time, you can't actually compel them
to do that, or let me rephrase that, it's not
that you can't compel them, it's there are certain points
of leverage that you have to have the gears of
everything in order to set this up so that the
court can then leverage him into saying it. And for
whatever reason, the prosecution, the courts, however you want to
(04:15):
frame it, they didn't have the will to do it.
But I look at this and that brings us to
episode the fourth most downloaded episode that brings me to
the family of k Leagansalves because with the fourth, though
(04:37):
he did not allocute, there was a certain let's see
I do I say this? There was there was a
certain amount of it's not joy I don't know really
how to there was there was something that came full
(04:57):
circle in that moment to sit there and watch him
with those dead eyes kind of squirm, you know, as
Olivia Kaylee's sister stood there at the lectern, and you
know that she directed her comments at him and just
(05:21):
said precisely what she wanted. There was no like weeping, uh,
there was no you know, kind of circumventing what the
reality was for her. It was dead on. She was
like General Patton. Yeah, that knew that she had an
objective and she didn't care what God in the way.
(05:43):
She was going to make make her voice heard in
this environment. And that's kind of summed up in the
way that that we entitled this episode Dave and just
let me and this is again the fourth one, and
these are this is you know, kind of loosely paraphrasing
what she said, but the title of this was delusional
(06:04):
pathetic average, you are nothing failed rapper Brian Coberger and
you know it really put really did put that exclamation
point on this case. I think we had heard a
(06:24):
lot from other people, but Olivia is like one of
these people that kind of floats in out of the mist,
you don't really she is one of these characters that
had not really and I'm not diminishing her by saying characters,
but I'm looking at this from a narrative perspective. If
we're watching a play almost Shakespearean here where she all
(06:44):
of a sudden just kind of you know, walks into
the stage and she just drops the hammer of the
gods at this moment in time, that's you know, for me,
out of all of the episodes in the top ten,
this is probably the one that really grabbed me by
my road and brought us back to the reality of
what this family had gone through at the hands of
(07:06):
this monster day.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
One of the things about this case joke the Gonzavaz
family is the reason we know a lot of the
information we know because from the very beginning they were
the ones who spoke out. It was Kaylee's mom and
dad who went on TV because they were frustrated, you know,
and they didn't always come off the best, but they were.
(07:32):
The thing is is that you could understand why, you know,
they were what they were dealing with, the shock and
the emotional pain, anguish and just frustration at everything. And
when Olivia Gonzabz talking about her sister, there was one
phrase that she said, and I thought it was really
dead on. She said, you orchestrated this like you thought
(07:56):
you were God. Now look at you, begging a court
room for scraps. You spent months preparing and still all
it took was my sister and a sheath that in
capital encapsulates so much.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, and that's something that you know that it's there.
It's kind of like the distillation of spirits. You get
down to the root of it, you get there to
that point where if anyone could say something that power
you know that's contained in that that hit it's really
you know, he's hard to read, I think, and that
(08:40):
you know, there's been a lot made out of that,
you know, with those dead, hollow eyes, you know his
kind of hooded, hooded stare that he has. You know
that he gazes out at everybody in a very menacing way. Yeah,
and you know, for that moment in time, he was
(09:02):
not the most dangerous person in that room. He really wasn't.
And you know, I wouldn't presume to, you know, to
frame the Gonzalezes as dangerous people. However, I think that
taken on the whole, you look at what they had
been through. There's a term I like to use when
life has been really bad for me, and I'll say,
(09:25):
it feels like it feels as though I've been drug
through a keyhole. And I think a lot of people
can identify with that. And for this family in particular,
where you know this their child, their sister is gone
forever and ever. Amen, we make a lot in forensics
and for those that work as investigators, saying that that
(09:49):
we speak for those that can no longer speak for them.
We give those who no longer have a voice a
voice in the matter. Any attempt that I have ever
made is incredibly feeble compared to what we saw Gonzales
do at that luck turn that day, you know, when
(10:10):
she really went right to the heart of the matter
and described him about you know, who he was, what
he was, what he had done to their family, and
just ripping it to shreds. We you don't and I
would not want to know. I would not want to
know the quiet conversations that they had had amongst them
(10:31):
as a family, you know, when they sit around and
they you know, what in the world are we going
to do? And I think that it goes back to
the dad. He was like, well, I know what we're
not going to do. We're not going to sit here,
and we're not going to sit here, you know, and
issue forth lamentations and just you know, tear our clothing
(10:53):
and all that. We're going to get up and we're
going to sally forth and we're going to do what
we have to do in order to get peace in
the in the set of circumstances, because I think that
at the end of the day, they felt like they
owed it to this child that was gone and that
they were robbed up.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think, and to the others. I think they felt
like there was such a void of what was being presented.
There was a lot of chatter going on about what
took place in that house, but there wasn't a lot
of information coming from the sources that need they needed
it from. But I didn't want to ask you about
this because when this case first broke, there was the
(11:35):
I don't want it. She wasn't the corner, but she
was the public, the elected official, right who said that.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
No, No, she was a corner. She's the elected corner,
the corner, yeah, and also an attorney, right.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And yet she went in and said that they had
all been killed in their sleep. Now she walked the
crime scene and had the temerity to say they were
all killed in their sleep. And now what we know
of the crime scene, you know what took place in there,
that the families actually knew a lot more, you know,
(12:12):
than we were all being told. Not like anybody owes
us anything. I'm not suggesting that. It's just that what
that woman said, she should have just kept her mouth shut.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
If she's going to say something, let me let me
take it one foot step further. If you like that one,
I got another one for you. If that's what she
said at that moment in time. And remember that was
just within I guess we could render it down to
within hours. They were certainly days of this horrific slaughter.
(12:44):
That was the first bit of information that had been
released to the public. Just imagine how insulting that is
to the family and families when they suddenly discovered, Dave,
that none of that, none of that was reality. And
(13:04):
because they have information that comes to them in these
private conversations that they have with folks, and suddenly all
that stuff that is said early on, because you know,
when you say that someone died in their sleep, that
implies a peaceful passing exactly. And I can tell you this,
(13:24):
this was anything but peaceful, and it was horrific, and
it the information that came out later, which we're going
to cover in just a moment or two, was anything
but placid. There was no solemnity in it. There was
(13:46):
no hope that they had quietly passed on in their sleep.
They went to a very very dark spot. And I
think therein lies some of the impetus that drove the
family in particular to get up there and address him
face to face, steering directly into the face of the devil. Well,
(14:25):
Dave shifting, shifting our focus back across the country geographically,
but yet still dealing with a family, a family that
that has mourned for for several years now. Our number
three entry into the top ten most downloaded episodes of
(14:48):
body Bags comes back to a case that you and
I have covered since again since it's its occurrence, and
that's the Gabby Petito case. The third episode or the
third most downloaded episode of body Bags for twenty twenty
five was entitled Shocking Discovery, Forensic Anthropology and the Suicide
(15:11):
of Gabby Patito's killer. I think that many people have
had questions for a protracted period of time, and I
don't I don't know if you recall this, this this
previous crime con that we attended. It was myself and Cheryl,
(15:33):
Cheryl McCullum mack as people know her, and Nancy up
on stage was actually uh Gabby's mom and her stepfather,
and we talked about they talked about the case, and
of course the at that session, most of the time
(15:55):
was spent on trying to, you know, talk about gab
life and the fund that they had set up. But
we got some insights I think, into the world that
she inhabited along with laundry, and also some insights I
think that go to maybe some suspicions about the skeletal
(16:20):
remains of ron laundry that were found down there in
that swam.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Dave, which was why we did the episode because there
was a lot of there was a lot wrong with
this case, and I think a lot of us who
follow crime stories and things like that looked at him.
Wait a minute, man, this guy, Brian Laundry goes with
his fiance Gabby Petito, cross country in a van she
(16:48):
bought and paid for. They're traveling, and he ends up
coming home to Florida alone without Gabby. Immediately, immediately I
want police out there getting him, you know, bright lights
and water dripping, whatever it takes. Where is Gabby? You
know that's her car and you're here, She's not. Where
(17:10):
is she? And why do you know what happened? I
and a lot of us don't understand. You know, why
can't they get this info? It seems so direct, And
I remember at the time going this seems so obvious.
Why are we not getting answers here from the again
speaking for the family, Why are they not being told
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And how can Brian Laundry's family be covering for him?
You know, what's going on here? How do you do
this to another human being? And of course, during the
coverage of what took place, while we were you know,
looking for Gabby and you know, Brian Laundry takes off.
You know, there are people standing outside their house, you
(17:50):
know if you remember yelling, you know, and where's Gabby?
And it's like, how can you people not even what's
wrong with you that you can't stand up here and say,
we don't know, I mean, give us some answer here man.
That doesn't add up, you know, And I think that
was the frustrating part of that entire case, because it
wasn't just Brian Laundry and Gabby Batido. It was their family,
(18:15):
you know, the family of Gabby wondering, well, what happened
to our daughter? And then you've got Brian Laundry's family
covering for him, knowing full well something bad has happened.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, something obviously you know that that was the case.
You know, where was Gabby? But all along, you know,
once Gabby has found I've got a great little insight
into this per that conversation we had up on stage.
I was fascinated by this. But and that was the
route obviously of this episode all along. You know, after
(18:48):
Gabby is found out there in Wyoming, it turns out
that you know, Laundry's remains were uh, you know, we're
within a cannon shot of of you know, his parents domicile,
also his domicile, you know, living with mom and dad
(19:14):
and in a very specific area that is. And I
made comment about it several times about how harsh this
environment is, how hard it is on human remains once
you got down Florida. Right, yeah, they're they're in Florida.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He just set that up, you know. He he went
into this area where his family had regularly camped and
he kind of hit himself out there when without anybody knowing, right,
I mean, we didn't know where Brian Laundry was. His
parents weren't talking in the area.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And they weren't talking. But you know, when when it
all came down to brass tacks, interestingly enough, the family,
his family got involved and lo and behold, they went
right to where the body was.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah? It really is crazy. And uh, just this little
anecdote I think here when we were on stage with
with with Gabby's family, her stepdad said, so, actually the
mother said something very interesting, Dave. I believe in angels,
(20:22):
I truly do, and and I believe that they, uh,
they watch over us. And she had made reference to this.
Do you know that when Gabby's remains were found in
this area out in Wyoming. You think about scavengers, You
think about how you know if a body was there
(20:44):
that it wouldn't it would not be intact. And interestingly enough,
when they found Gabby's remains and they were you know,
through the natural course of biology, they're they're decomposing, okay,
But Dave, her body was intact. When you get to
(21:08):
look at brian laundry, and this was kind of one
of the main thrust of this episode, He's in that
swampy area. His remains are scattered, you know there there's
been feasting going on, you know, on his remains, and
you take a look this kind of dichotomy, you know,
between the two, and you think about and look, none
(21:30):
of us are perfect, right. I don't know what kind
of life you know, Gabby lead or you know, or Laundry.
I can only hazard guess. But you know, you see
that even in death, you know, in this particular case
at least, that her body, though decomposing, was almost pristine.
His is scattered in this horrible environment where you've got
(21:52):
rising water, you've got all manner of critters that inhabit
this area. I have had all kinds of people that
have reached out to me over the course of the years.
You know, what could have you know, happened to his body.
I remember for a while people were saying, well, you know,
an alligator got him, you know, or an alligator you know,
(22:12):
haul off part of his body, and that that was
That was not that was inaccurate. You know, that's not
what happened. That's not how alligators work.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Isn't it funny how when somebody goes into this into
Florida on the in there's marshy water, it's always gators
and it never turns out to be that way. It's
never there. But there's blame for everything.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
The gators are, well, they're the apex. They're the apex predator,
you know in in North America. I mean, they truly are.
But what was fascinating about this case is that Brian
laundry when the assessment was done on his body by
the forensic anthropologists. And this is a very difficult case
(22:52):
to work uh forensically, to try to gather as much
of the remains that are left the bony remains. When
they did find his skull. We do know that he
was as well documented, he's right handed, well, he's got
this kind of weird, atypical gunshot wound where the entrance
(23:17):
per the forensic anthropologist has noted, and it's it's in
the left aspect of his head, and it's up in
a in kind of an odd location almost the it's
not occipital, which is posterior, but it's up in the
parietal area the well more to the side and up.
(23:42):
All right, that's all I'll say at this point. And
I think that Gabby's stepfather has his own thoughts about
this and about what what could have led to this.
I found them very interesting, I'll say that much. The
fact that that he is deceased out there in this
(24:03):
location his you know, his body was found rather quickly
after his family got involved in the search. You know,
for the first time they're actually doing something, and you know,
lo and behold, there he was this I know, though, Gabby,
(24:25):
unlike many of the victims that we cover on this show,
we always hear a lot about perpetrators, don't we, Dave.
We always hear their names, and they linger, they linger
forever and ever. But in the case of Gabby Petito,
her case and her name will never be forgotten. Well,
(24:59):
here we go, Dave, We're bringing it home. We've got
two episodes left of the most downloaded episodes of twenty
twenty five for body Bags. And in this particular case,
with these two episodes, they all focus on well, let's see,
(25:23):
how can I let's say this. They all focus on
an event, but that event actually involves four homicides. And
you know where I'm going with this day. We're going
back to Moscow, Idaho, and to the slaughter of these
four university students. And for us at number two the
(25:49):
most downloaded, the second most downloaded is entitled Explosive Proof.
Maddie and Kaylee fought back against a cowardly attack, and Dave,
I gotta I gotta lay it out for you. You
and I have talked about this quite a bit off air,
and we talked about in a lot of people have,
I know, but for you and I, for the purposes
(26:10):
of our show, we've talked about this a lot relative
to the dynamics of what went on in that in
that upstairs bedroom, because a lot of people thought that
it began up there.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah it we I say we, and I'm talking about
collectively those who followed this case. I found myself reaching
out and looking in a number of sources. I wouldn't
have normally looked at Joe to figure out what had
transpired because nothing made sense. You know, the problem with
(26:47):
the entire case was that what we were told from
the beginning that they were killed in their sleep, and
then what came out at the end. You know, we
were piecing together along the way. If you're a member,
we covered this in the dateline leaks that episode where
a lot of information came out that some of it
was true, some of it wasn't. But what we came
(27:10):
up with when everything was said and done was that
there was a fight and Maddie and Kaylee fought back.
And I don't know, I mean this from the I
don't know how we could get the story that they
died in their sleep. You know, to this what we
(27:33):
know took place that really bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't,
but it really does bother me. But based on the
information that we found out from the police reports, the
coroner's findings indicated that both Maddie and Kaylee had injuries
(27:54):
consistent with a struggle. Now we know that Coburger snuck
into the house, and we know that his first attack
was on Maddie and Kaylee. Based on the timeline that
we've been given Joe, we know that he arrives and
goes up the stairs shortly after four o'clock. We know
(28:15):
that Xana Cronodle has just received her door dash from
Jack in the Box and so she's awake in her room,
probably with Ethan, and Coburger goes past that room straight
up the stairs into Mattie in Kaylee's room. We know
that there was some noise going on that was heard
(28:36):
because we had the one of the roommates saying that
she thought Mattie was playing with her dog.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yep, that noise.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The physical evidence shows that Madison had wounds on her
forearms and hands. Kaylee had wounds around her mouth. Her
father indicated someone and had pressed in to keep her quiet.
She had more than twenty stab wounds. We know that
(29:09):
both girls were beaten. Now, Joe, based on the room
and where the girls were found, they put up a
heck of a fight, and as we mentioned at the
beginning of the show, Olivia Gonzavz talking about Coberger's plan
(29:29):
and how he spent all this time planning and it
came down to her sister you know, Kaylee and that sheath,
that knife sheath, because those were the two things that
brought about evidence that put him in that room. But Joe,
when we were covering this story, this was explosive new information,
(29:49):
which is why these are the two most downloaded episodes
of the year.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I'd agree with you. Yeah, tell her a.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Little bit about that attack though, Coburger.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, it really paints paints a picture, a horrific picture.
We know that. I think one of the watchwords here
is containment. And when I say that, I'm talking about
the attack itself. He's essentially got both of these young
women penned in. They're not going anywhere because he's in
between them and a location where they could have exited,
(30:22):
the single door that leads into this bedroom. And then
you've got these objects that are within the room. Most
I think most significant is this bed, you know, because
one of the things that has been talked about is that,
you know, one of these young women had you know,
(30:45):
she's already graduated. Essentially, she's moved out, she's come back
to see her friend and they are co sleeping, you know,
in this area, which is something that they had done
since they were little bitty things. Yeah, you know, and
and when he sets upon them, where are they're going
to go? But again going back, and this is what
(31:10):
really lit a fire with me. You had mentioned the
corner early on, because I see that corner. You don't
hear a lot in the news about corners, okay, and
because I have a special place in my life and
in what I have done in my life with the
(31:32):
training of corners, the educational corners, that person suddenly is
thrust into the spotlight, and they're reflective of all corners, okay,
whether you like it or not. And I know a
lot of people would say, well, that doesn't mean that
all corner, No, it doesn't. However, when you're not talked
about a lot in the news and suddenly you're thrust
into the spotlight. So that's what lit the little flame
(31:55):
in me, I think early on. And that you know,
as I stated earlier, that does comments rose shortly after
these events. So when we begin to learn about what
happened in that bedroom, it goes to invalidate all of
those things, those notions that were placed out there. And
(32:16):
it really I'm supposed to be as objective as possible. However,
you know, you kind of feel, you know, my objectivity
kind of fades into the background. You know, when you
understand that there's not you know, you begin to question
and you know, what kind of scientific assessment had been
done at that point? Even from the perspective, you know,
it begins, It begins for me to talk about, well,
(32:40):
how were the bodies even assessed? Because you know what
one of the big things turned out and you mentioned
this just a moment ago, Dave about the deliveries and
when he came into the room, is the assessment of time? Right, Well,
you're if you're trying to tell us that they were asleep,
that they died in their sleep, does what kind of
(33:00):
assessment did you actually do on the bodies as far
as post mortem interval and all those things, because as
it turned out, things didn't go to trial and if
you needed that critical bit of information, because we're all
about timelines, aren't we. It's not just the injuries themselves.
You know that that goes into question your your I
(33:25):
don't know your compli pract right, and so you're and
then you contect you you try to contextualize the injuries
and as we found out with Kaylee, I'm not saying
that that Maddie's were were not brutal. It truly was.
She was attacked over and over again, over again with
(33:46):
a sharp instrument. But Kaylee, there's so much anger involved
in this day. And I'm talking about fractured facial facial structures,
you know, the driving of its blade, you know, into
her face. Uh. And we talked about the blunt force trauma.
You had mentioned it earlier where and there. Do you
remember there were these weird patterns that they talked about,
(34:08):
these kind of linear circum circum not circumventual, but but
there were these kind of weird looking patterns. And I
felt like that those patterns matched up with the handle
on k bar, you know, because they're grooved. Uh. And
also I remember talking about how that knife, if you
(34:28):
look at it, the knife is a military knife, and
so it's not just essentially used. I think people think
military knife that it's used as as a means to
attack another person. It's not, because when you're in the military,
you need something a utility knife that serves a multiple
a multiplicity of purpose. Uh. If you flip that k
(34:50):
bar over upside down so that it's inverted to handle itself,
the end of the handle. The butt of it looks
like a hammer head. I think it's even protagonal or
pentagonal in shape. It's got edges on it, so you
can use it like in the field if you want
to reseal a box or you're trying to nail something up,
you could flip that knife over and use it as
(35:12):
a hammer. That's that's one of the things that they're
seeing here, you know, with Kaylee, and they're contained in
this area. But she did in fact fight back. We
know that she did. We've got a combination of DNA
that's found beneath her fingernails. You know, at the scene.
(35:32):
There's contact that's going on. So no, in answer to
the big question here, they did not die in their sleep, Dave.
That's just not that's not a reality. It's not a
real thing.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Well, the one thing we did find out beyond okay, upstairs,
we understand that that was in all probability the first attack,
because it's the only one that actually makes sense when
you look at what transpired. So COBT goes up the
stairs attacks now based on other physical evidence and audio evidence,
(36:07):
kay Legan's Xanda Kernodle, here's something going on upstairs and
goes up the stairs to check. Now, this is the
Dave mac theory of what took place. Because they never
actually said this out loud. There have been a lot
of comments about what possibly happened, but based on everything
we looked at, it sounded to me that Xana, who
(36:30):
is that got her food from Jack in the Box
and sitting there eating Ethan, is crashed out in the
bed sleep and she hears something going on. It sounds
more than just playing around, and it sounds you know,
you're gonna hear a struggle. That sounds a lot different
than anything else you've ever heard before, so you're gonna
go check it out. And it sounded to me that
Xana went up the stairs to see what was going on.
(36:54):
And I think it was Xana startling Coberg that caused
him to leave that knife shep because he wasn't thinking
at that point. It was paniced. He thought he was
getting away with killing these girls and private nobody's going
to catch him.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, and that's I think that you're spot on there.
And of course that brings us to the number one
most downloaded episode of Bodybacks for twenty twenty five, and
this episode entitled Shocking Truth Xanna caught BK and fought
the devil, and boy did she ever. You know, how
(37:29):
many times do you think Dave, over the course of
her living in this space with her friends upstairs, how
many times do you think that maybe late nights she
had egressed up that staircase just to go have a chat, yep,
just to talk about what your day was like, or
maybe share food. Hey, the deliveries here, I'll just bring
it up and we'll sit on the floor and we'll eat,
(37:51):
you know. And so this one particular time, Xana, for
whatever number of reasons, whether it was she was alerted
to who some type of sound or or something had happened.
I think that going back to the comment, and I'm
still interested in what where this comment arises about. You
(38:14):
can hear a person say I'm going to help you,
and that's that's very sinister. Oh my lord, that is
And we heard about that early on, didn't we.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, we did.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, And and the fact, you know, you you begin
to look back at this thing and you think about
how dark this case really was. Uh. But yeah, it
turns out that that you know Xanna, who we learned
a lot about her family and kind of the status
of her life, you know, just trying to make her
(38:45):
way in this world. Uh, trying to you know, fit
in with everybody else. She's got a boyfriend that's over
with her, in in in the person of Ethan, who's
in the bed. Uh he's you know, later found it
looks as though that he he was in bed. You know,
we thought, you know, early on, you know, there were
(39:07):
all these things that had come up, you know, where
he you know, he may have been in the doorway,
you know, there was a lot of the speculative uh
stuff that was floating about there. But Xana alerted and David,
do you think that he chased her about that floor?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I think that when she was up the stairs, okay,
trying to I think that, like most of us, I
heard something. I'm gonna go check it out. And as
we get closer to it, we slowed down to get
an eyeball and that's when maybe he turned, maybe she
gassed maybe, you know, I don't know, but I think
he came out of that room, chasing her down the stairs.
I think he caught her and that was where the
(39:45):
attack began, on the stairs, all the way down into
the room. Based on the injuries, and where she was
actually found. I believe that's what happened. And again, now
going back to some of the things that were said
you mentioned and the term of Coberger's saying I'm going
to help you. You know, that was something that we
heard early on, and I put a lot of stock
(40:09):
in that because it sounds like something you know, evil
would say.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, it really does, just so that I can I'm
going to help you, just so I can get closer
to you, you know, exactly. You put your guard down.
I'm here to help you. I really, you know. There's
all kinds of what ifs in this case, Dave. There
always will be because we still don't we still don't
have a weapon, right, and there will always be all
kinds of what ifs relative to it. But it's it's
(40:36):
I find it particularly interesting that Xanna, in her own way,
was kind of a key I think, to establishing the
timeline and the activities you know, up till that point.
When she stepped out of that room, she sealed her fate,
I think at that point in time because still even
(40:56):
though he had he was in a position where he
had two victims and maybe he was only counting on one.
This is something he can still control, Dave. Okay, and
as you look into those dead eyes that he has,
you know that he wanted to be in control of everything.
(41:17):
Xana is the red herring here. You know, she pops
onto the radar. He's alerted to her and what she's doing.
You know that I've been spotted. Now. You know, hell
is about to follow, you know, because I've got to
kill anybody that is going to get in my way.
The rest of these the one roommate that peeked out
(41:40):
of the door, she needs to get down on her
knees every single day of her life and think the
sweet Lord above that she's still with us, because I
think that a lot of it has to do that.
He was just exhausted at that point. You know, no
one will ever convince me any different that this was
not sexually motivated thing that was going on. And it's
(42:02):
almost like a climax had taken place with him, this release,
if you will, and then he's running on pure adrenaline
and anger. You know, how dare you you know, interrupt
what I'm doing here? And you know, when you take
the total view of this case and the dynamics of it,
(42:23):
and also the the interesting way that a lot of
the data was communicated to everybody out there that's sitting
and watching this every day. I don't know that there
will ever be another case like this. I hope that
there won't be, but you and I know, I know
that I might be a bit more jaded than you,
(42:45):
but I think I know that I think we understand
that there will be something that will arise that will
be absolutely horrific. I don't think that there will be
anytime in the foreseeable future where the names of these
victims and the events of that night will be struck
(43:05):
from our memory. It's something that will stay with us
forever and ever. And Dave, I got to say to you,
it's been my deep pleasure to talk about these cases
and hopefully be of some service to people that try
to understand the dynamics of injuries and understand forensics a
little bit better. Because this in and of itself is
(43:26):
probably one of the more complicated cases that we've had
to go through. I hope that I've done my best
as a teacher and someone that tries to keep the
public informed. It's been a great year for us. Twenty
twenty five has been and we look forward to a
great twenty twenty six with body Bags. So I'd like
to say just thank you, Dave, thank you for everything
(43:47):
you've done for the show and for me personally. And
I have a good feeling that twenty twenty six is
going to have great things in store for both of
us and for the show.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
What say you, I'm right back at you. I think
I'm appreciative of how you've been able to I'm appreciative
of the fact that you share your knowledge, you know
your history, and not just your book knowledge, but your
history in the field to help all of us understand
the crimes better more than just the fascination, the preurery
(44:19):
and interests that most many people have, to actually get
into the mechanations of what took place, how it happened,
and what these things mean. A lot of times we
jump to conclusions, those of us who are not educated,
you know, we think something means something that it doesn't,
and you actually have a way of breaking that down
to show us that something we didn't find important actually
(44:42):
is the turn of the case. And I'm appreciative of that.
It has been a great year and I look forward
to twenty twenty six. The show continues to grow, and
it's because of you, and I don't know. My only
recommendation is that maybe instead of doing twenty seven shows
a day, that maybe you take it down to twenty
five because you know you have You've become the go
(45:08):
to guy by every network, and congratulations for that. I've
watched you, oh well, thank you from the beginning to
where you are now, and it's been phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right, well, I couldn't do it with that your sage,
advice and ladies and gentlemen, I got the best producer
in the business. Dave mac is on fire with everything
he does. He is a great colleague, and most of all,
he's a great friend. And we look forward. Dave and
I both look forward. We're going to be journeying out
over the course of twenty twenty six and will have
(45:40):
a couple of stops along the way. I hope that
we see you guys out there, come up and chat
with us. We'll be glad to entertain your thoughts and
have a conversation, maybe even a cup of coffee. You
never know, But thank you again, my friends, thank you
for a great twenty twenty five, and here's to the
upcoming year. Twenty six. I pray for peace for everyone.
(46:03):
I pray for peace for our country, and most of all,
I pray for peace for the families, families that are
left behind the wake of all of the horror that's
out there. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Bodybags, but Joseph's gotten more.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Here we are, we're going to be. This is episode
the second episode of our top ten list for twenty
twenty five. And again before I name the final four,
I would like just for a moment again to thank
you all of my friends out there that have supported
(00:28):
brother David and myself through our journey in twenty twenty
five on Bodybacks. And I'm sure if if twenty twenty
six is going to be anything like twenty twenty five was,
we'll have much much more to talk about. With that said,
(00:50):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and for the end of twenty
twenty five, this is Bodybacks. Well, I'd have to say
I would have to say that if I could, I
don't know, give kind of a visual image here, I'd
(01:12):
say that the last four are our top four episodes
for most downloaded over the course of twenty twenty five.
I'd have to say that it's a great big exclamation
point on a series of cases, or a series of
events rather that seem like they would never end, and
(01:34):
they came to an abrupt end, and we had more answers,
certainly at the end of the year than we did
than when we started. I think that in any criminal investigation,
and certainly with forensics, you want that kind of a
culmative event, you know that. And again, we don't use
(01:55):
the word closure on this show because we believe in it.
It's not something that's real, but at least it has
given us an idea and certainly the families that are
involved in these cases, an idea as to which way
the wind is blowing and maybe to a certain extent,
what the future holes man.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
You know, Joe, I think that one of the interesting
tidbits on the program this year was the amount of
time not just you and I, but crime coverage in
general spent on the Brian Coberger case. And you know,
(02:37):
there's a couple of moments in crime where you kind
of remember where you were when something happened, like the O. J.
Simpson trial when they said not guilty, and you know,
if it doesn't fit, you must have quit those types
of things. And with regard to one of the biggest
cases this year, the Idaho murders, was the sentencing of
(03:01):
Brian Coberger. But it wasn't just the sentencing. A lot
of us were hoping that at sentencing there would be allocution.
He would actually be forced to say what he did.
And it may be why, but at least what he did,
you know, specifically walking in the house, going doing what
we wanted to hear that. I felt like it was old.
(03:23):
I felt like that I cannot believe they didn't make
him do that Joe as part of the deal.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
On one hand, and you know my thoughts about this,
I agree with it because the template that always have
in my mind about any kind of alocution always goes
back to BTK, where he was compelled by the courts
in Kansas to say specifically what he had done. And
there's all kinds of legal ease involved in this, and
how you know they say, you know, there's several people
(03:53):
that have said over time, you can't actually compel them
to do that, or let me rephrase that, it's not
that you can't compel them, it's there are certain points
of leverage that you have to have the gears of
everything in order to set this up so that the
court can then leverage him into saying it. And for
whatever reason, the prosecution, the courts, however you want to
(04:15):
frame it, they didn't have the will to do it.
But I look at this and that brings us to
episode the fourth most downloaded episode that brings me to
the family of k Leagansalves because with the fourth, though
(04:37):
he did not allocute, there was a certain let's see
I do I say this? There was there was a
certain amount of it's not joy I don't know really
how to there was there was something that came full
(04:57):
circle in that moment to sit there and watch him
with those dead eyes kind of squirm, you know, as
Olivia Kaylee's sister stood there at the lectern, and you
know that she directed her comments at him and just
(05:21):
said precisely what she wanted. There was no like weeping, uh,
there was no you know, kind of circumventing what the
reality was for her. It was dead on. She was
like General Patton. Yeah, that knew that she had an
objective and she didn't care what God in the way.
(05:43):
She was going to make make her voice heard in
this environment. And that's kind of summed up in the
way that that we entitled this episode Dave and just
let me and this is again the fourth one, and
these are this is you know, kind of loosely paraphrasing
what she said, but the title of this was delusional
(06:04):
pathetic average, you are nothing failed rapper Brian Coberger and
you know it really put really did put that exclamation
point on this case. I think we had heard a
(06:24):
lot from other people, but Olivia is like one of
these people that kind of floats in out of the mist,
you don't really she is one of these characters that
had not really and I'm not diminishing her by saying characters,
but I'm looking at this from a narrative perspective. If
we're watching a play almost Shakespearean here where she all
(06:44):
of a sudden just kind of you know, walks into
the stage and she just drops the hammer of the
gods at this moment in time, that's you know, for me,
out of all of the episodes in the top ten,
this is probably the one that really grabbed me by
my road and brought us back to the reality of
what this family had gone through at the hands of
(07:06):
this monster day.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
One of the things about this case joke the Gonzavaz
family is the reason we know a lot of the
information we know because from the very beginning they were
the ones who spoke out. It was Kaylee's mom and
dad who went on TV because they were frustrated, you know,
and they didn't always come off the best, but they were.
(07:32):
The thing is is that you could understand why, you know,
they were what they were dealing with, the shock and
the emotional pain, anguish and just frustration at everything. And
when Olivia Gonzabz talking about her sister, there was one
phrase that she said, and I thought it was really
dead on. She said, you orchestrated this like you thought
(07:56):
you were God. Now look at you, begging a court
room for scraps. You spent months preparing and still all
it took was my sister and a sheath that in
capital encapsulates so much.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, and that's something that you know that it's there.
It's kind of like the distillation of spirits. You get
down to the root of it, you get there to
that point where if anyone could say something that power
you know that's contained in that that hit it's really
you know, he's hard to read, I think, and that
(08:40):
you know, there's been a lot made out of that,
you know, with those dead, hollow eyes, you know his
kind of hooded, hooded stare that he has. You know
that he gazes out at everybody in a very menacing way. Yeah,
and you know, for that moment in time, he was
(09:02):
not the most dangerous person in that room. He really wasn't.
And you know, I wouldn't presume to, you know, to
frame the Gonzalezes as dangerous people. However, I think that
taken on the whole, you look at what they had
been through. There's a term I like to use when
life has been really bad for me, and I'll say,
(09:25):
it feels like it feels as though I've been drug
through a keyhole. And I think a lot of people
can identify with that. And for this family in particular,
where you know this their child, their sister is gone
forever and ever. Amen, we make a lot in forensics
and for those that work as investigators, saying that that
(09:49):
we speak for those that can no longer speak for them.
We give those who no longer have a voice a
voice in the matter. Any attempt that I have ever
made is incredibly feeble compared to what we saw Gonzales
do at that luck turn that day, you know, when
(10:10):
she really went right to the heart of the matter
and described him about you know, who he was, what
he was, what he had done to their family, and
just ripping it to shreds. We you don't and I
would not want to know. I would not want to
know the quiet conversations that they had had amongst them
(10:31):
as a family, you know, when they sit around and
they you know, what in the world are we going
to do? And I think that it goes back to
the dad. He was like, well, I know what we're
not going to do. We're not going to sit here,
and we're not going to sit here, you know, and
issue forth lamentations and just you know, tear our clothing
(10:53):
and all that. We're going to get up and we're
going to sally forth and we're going to do what
we have to do in order to get peace in
the in the set of circumstances, because I think that
at the end of the day, they felt like they
owed it to this child that was gone and that
they were robbed up.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think, and to the others. I think they felt
like there was such a void of what was being presented.
There was a lot of chatter going on about what
took place in that house, but there wasn't a lot
of information coming from the sources that need they needed
it from. But I didn't want to ask you about
this because when this case first broke, there was the
(11:35):
I don't want it. She wasn't the corner, but she
was the public, the elected official, right who said that.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
No, No, she was a corner. She's the elected corner,
the corner, yeah, and also an attorney, right.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And yet she went in and said that they had
all been killed in their sleep. Now she walked the
crime scene and had the temerity to say they were
all killed in their sleep. And now what we know
of the crime scene, you know what took place in there,
that the families actually knew a lot more, you know,
(12:12):
than we were all being told. Not like anybody owes
us anything. I'm not suggesting that. It's just that what
that woman said, she should have just kept her mouth shut.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
If she's going to say something, let me let me
take it one foot step further. If you like that one,
I got another one for you. If that's what she
said at that moment in time. And remember that was
just within I guess we could render it down to
within hours. They were certainly days of this horrific slaughter.
(12:44):
That was the first bit of information that had been
released to the public. Just imagine how insulting that is
to the family and families when they suddenly discovered, Dave,
that none of that, none of that was reality. And
(13:04):
because they have information that comes to them in these
private conversations that they have with folks, and suddenly all
that stuff that is said early on, because you know,
when you say that someone died in their sleep, that
implies a peaceful passing exactly. And I can tell you this,
(13:24):
this was anything but peaceful, and it was horrific, and
it the information that came out later, which we're going
to cover in just a moment or two, was anything
but placid. There was no solemnity in it. There was
(13:46):
no hope that they had quietly passed on in their sleep.
They went to a very very dark spot. And I
think therein lies some of the impetus that drove the
family in particular to get up there and address him
face to face, steering directly into the face of the devil. Well,
(14:25):
Dave shifting, shifting our focus back across the country geographically,
but yet still dealing with a family, a family that
that has mourned for for several years now. Our number
three entry into the top ten most downloaded episodes of
(14:48):
body Bags comes back to a case that you and
I have covered since again since it's its occurrence, and
that's the Gabby Petito case. The third episode or the
third most downloaded episode of body Bags for twenty twenty
five was entitled Shocking Discovery, Forensic Anthropology and the Suicide
(15:11):
of Gabby Patito's killer. I think that many people have
had questions for a protracted period of time, and I
don't I don't know if you recall this, this this
previous crime con that we attended. It was myself and Cheryl,
(15:33):
Cheryl McCullum mack as people know her, and Nancy up
on stage was actually uh Gabby's mom and her stepfather,
and we talked about they talked about the case, and
of course the at that session, most of the time
(15:55):
was spent on trying to, you know, talk about gab
life and the fund that they had set up. But
we got some insights I think, into the world that
she inhabited along with laundry, and also some insights I
think that go to maybe some suspicions about the skeletal
(16:20):
remains of ron laundry that were found down there in
that swam.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
Dave, which was why we did the episode because there
was a lot of there was a lot wrong with
this case, and I think a lot of us who
follow crime stories and things like that looked at him.
Wait a minute, man, this guy, Brian Laundry goes with
his fiance Gabby Petito, cross country in a van she
(16:48):
bought and paid for. They're traveling, and he ends up
coming home to Florida alone without Gabby. Immediately, immediately I
want police out there getting him, you know, bright lights
and water dripping, whatever it takes. Where is Gabby? You
know that's her car and you're here, She's not. Where
(17:10):
is she? And why do you know what happened? I
and a lot of us don't understand. You know, why
can't they get this info? It seems so direct, And
I remember at the time going this seems so obvious.
Why are we not getting answers here from the again
speaking for the family, Why are they not being told
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
You know?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
And how can Brian Laundry's family be covering for him?
You know, what's going on here? How do you do
this to another human being? And of course, during the
coverage of what took place, while we were you know,
looking for Gabby and you know, Brian Laundry takes off.
You know, there are people standing outside their house, you
(17:50):
know if you remember yelling, you know, and where's Gabby?
And it's like, how can you people not even what's
wrong with you that you can't stand up here and say,
we don't know, I mean, give us some answer here man.
That doesn't add up, you know, And I think that
was the frustrating part of that entire case, because it
wasn't just Brian Laundry and Gabby Batido. It was their family,
(18:15):
you know, the family of Gabby wondering, well, what happened
to our daughter? And then you've got Brian Laundry's family
covering for him, knowing full well something bad has happened.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Yeah, something obviously you know that that was the case.
You know, where was Gabby? But all along, you know,
once Gabby has found I've got a great little insight
into this per that conversation we had up on stage.
I was fascinated by this. But and that was the
route obviously of this episode all along. You know, after
(18:48):
Gabby is found out there in Wyoming, it turns out
that you know, Laundry's remains were uh, you know, we're
within a cannon shot of of you know, his parents domicile,
also his domicile, you know, living with mom and dad
(19:14):
and in a very specific area that is. And I
made comment about it several times about how harsh this
environment is, how hard it is on human remains once
you got down Florida. Right, yeah, they're they're in Florida.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
He just set that up, you know. He he went
into this area where his family had regularly camped and
he kind of hit himself out there when without anybody knowing, right,
I mean, we didn't know where Brian Laundry was. His
parents weren't talking in the area.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
And they weren't talking. But you know, when when it
all came down to brass tacks, interestingly enough, the family,
his family got involved and lo and behold, they went
right to where the body was.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah? It really is crazy. And uh, just this little
anecdote I think here when we were on stage with
with with Gabby's family, her stepdad said, so, actually the
mother said something very interesting, Dave. I believe in angels,
(20:22):
I truly do, and and I believe that they, uh,
they watch over us. And she had made reference to this.
Do you know that when Gabby's remains were found in
this area out in Wyoming. You think about scavengers, You
think about how you know if a body was there
(20:44):
that it wouldn't it would not be intact. And interestingly enough,
when they found Gabby's remains and they were you know,
through the natural course of biology, they're they're decomposing, okay,
But Dave, her body was intact. When you get to
(21:08):
look at brian laundry, and this was kind of one
of the main thrust of this episode, He's in that
swampy area. His remains are scattered, you know there there's
been feasting going on, you know, on his remains, and
you take a look this kind of dichotomy, you know,
between the two, and you think about and look, none
(21:30):
of us are perfect, right. I don't know what kind
of life you know, Gabby lead or you know, or Laundry.
I can only hazard guess. But you know, you see
that even in death, you know, in this particular case
at least, that her body, though decomposing, was almost pristine.
His is scattered in this horrible environment where you've got
(21:52):
rising water, you've got all manner of critters that inhabit
this area. I have had all kinds of people that
have reached out to me over the course of the years.
You know, what could have you know, happened to his body.
I remember for a while people were saying, well, you know,
an alligator got him, you know, or an alligator you know,
(22:12):
haul off part of his body, and that that was
That was not that was inaccurate. You know, that's not
what happened. That's not how alligators work.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Isn't it funny how when somebody goes into this into
Florida on the in there's marshy water, it's always gators
and it never turns out to be that way. It's
never there. But there's blame for everything.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
The gators are, well, they're the apex. They're the apex predator,
you know in in North America. I mean, they truly are.
But what was fascinating about this case is that Brian
laundry when the assessment was done on his body by
the forensic anthropologists. And this is a very difficult case
(22:52):
to work uh forensically, to try to gather as much
of the remains that are left the bony remains. When
they did find his skull. We do know that he
was as well documented, he's right handed, well, he's got
this kind of weird, atypical gunshot wound where the entrance
(23:17):
per the forensic anthropologist has noted, and it's it's in
the left aspect of his head, and it's up in
a in kind of an odd location almost the it's
not occipital, which is posterior, but it's up in the
parietal area the well more to the side and up.
(23:42):
All right, that's all I'll say at this point. And
I think that Gabby's stepfather has his own thoughts about
this and about what what could have led to this.
I found them very interesting, I'll say that much. The
fact that that he is deceased out there in this
(24:03):
location his you know, his body was found rather quickly
after his family got involved in the search. You know,
for the first time they're actually doing something, and you know,
lo and behold, there he was this I know, though, Gabby,
(24:25):
unlike many of the victims that we cover on this show,
we always hear a lot about perpetrators, don't we, Dave.
We always hear their names, and they linger, they linger
forever and ever. But in the case of Gabby Petito,
her case and her name will never be forgotten. Well,
(24:59):
here we go, Dave, We're bringing it home. We've got
two episodes left of the most downloaded episodes of twenty
twenty five for body Bags. And in this particular case,
with these two episodes, they all focus on well, let's see,
(25:23):
how can I let's say this. They all focus on
an event, but that event actually involves four homicides. And
you know where I'm going with this day. We're going
back to Moscow, Idaho, and to the slaughter of these
four university students. And for us at number two the
(25:49):
most downloaded, the second most downloaded is entitled Explosive Proof.
Maddie and Kaylee fought back against a cowardly attack, and Dave,
I gotta I gotta lay it out for you. You
and I have talked about this quite a bit off air,
and we talked about in a lot of people have,
I know, but for you and I, for the purposes
(26:10):
of our show, we've talked about this a lot relative
to the dynamics of what went on in that in
that upstairs bedroom, because a lot of people thought that
it began up there.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah it we I say we, and I'm talking about
collectively those who followed this case. I found myself reaching
out and looking in a number of sources. I wouldn't
have normally looked at Joe to figure out what had
transpired because nothing made sense. You know, the problem with
(26:47):
the entire case was that what we were told from
the beginning that they were killed in their sleep, and
then what came out at the end. You know, we
were piecing together along the way. If you're a member,
we covered this in the dateline leaks that episode where
a lot of information came out that some of it
was true, some of it wasn't. But what we came
(27:10):
up with when everything was said and done was that
there was a fight and Maddie and Kaylee fought back.
And I don't know, I mean this from the I
don't know how we could get the story that they
died in their sleep. You know, to this what we
(27:33):
know took place that really bothers me. Maybe it shouldn't,
but it really does bother me. But based on the
information that we found out from the police reports, the
coroner's findings indicated that both Maddie and Kaylee had injuries
(27:54):
consistent with a struggle. Now we know that Coburger snuck
into the house, and we know that his first attack
was on Maddie and Kaylee. Based on the timeline that
we've been given Joe, we know that he arrives and
goes up the stairs shortly after four o'clock. We know
(28:15):
that Xana Cronodle has just received her door dash from
Jack in the Box and so she's awake in her room,
probably with Ethan, and Coburger goes past that room straight
up the stairs into Mattie in Kaylee's room. We know
that there was some noise going on that was heard
(28:36):
because we had the one of the roommates saying that
she thought Mattie was playing with her dog.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yep, that noise.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The physical evidence shows that Madison had wounds on her
forearms and hands. Kaylee had wounds around her mouth. Her
father indicated someone and had pressed in to keep her quiet.
She had more than twenty stab wounds. We know that
(29:09):
both girls were beaten. Now, Joe, based on the room
and where the girls were found, they put up a
heck of a fight, and as we mentioned at the
beginning of the show, Olivia Gonzavz talking about Coberger's plan
(29:29):
and how he spent all this time planning and it
came down to her sister you know, Kaylee and that sheath,
that knife sheath, because those were the two things that
brought about evidence that put him in that room. But Joe,
when we were covering this story, this was explosive new information,
(29:49):
which is why these are the two most downloaded episodes
of the year.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, I'd agree with you. Yeah, tell her a.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Little bit about that attack though, Coburger.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Yeah, it really paints paints a picture, a horrific picture.
We know that. I think one of the watchwords here
is containment. And when I say that, I'm talking about
the attack itself. He's essentially got both of these young
women penned in. They're not going anywhere because he's in
between them and a location where they could have exited,
(30:22):
the single door that leads into this bedroom. And then
you've got these objects that are within the room. Most
I think most significant is this bed, you know, because
one of the things that has been talked about is that,
you know, one of these young women had you know,
(30:45):
she's already graduated. Essentially, she's moved out, she's come back
to see her friend and they are co sleeping, you know,
in this area, which is something that they had done
since they were little bitty things. Yeah, you know, and
and when he sets upon them, where are they're going
to go? But again going back, and this is what
(31:10):
really lit a fire with me. You had mentioned the
corner early on, because I see that corner. You don't
hear a lot in the news about corners, okay, and
because I have a special place in my life and
in what I have done in my life with the
(31:32):
training of corners, the educational corners, that person suddenly is
thrust into the spotlight, and they're reflective of all corners, okay,
whether you like it or not. And I know a
lot of people would say, well, that doesn't mean that
all corner, No, it doesn't. However, when you're not talked
about a lot in the news and suddenly you're thrust
into the spotlight. So that's what lit the little flame
(31:55):
in me, I think early on. And that you know,
as I stated earlier, that does comments rose shortly after
these events. So when we begin to learn about what
happened in that bedroom, it goes to invalidate all of
those things, those notions that were placed out there. And
(32:16):
it really I'm supposed to be as objective as possible. However,
you know, you kind of feel, you know, my objectivity
kind of fades into the background. You know, when you
understand that there's not you know, you begin to question
and you know, what kind of scientific assessment had been
done at that point? Even from the perspective, you know,
it begins, It begins for me to talk about, well,
(32:40):
how were the bodies even assessed? Because you know what
one of the big things turned out and you mentioned
this just a moment ago, Dave about the deliveries and
when he came into the room, is the assessment of time? Right, Well,
you're if you're trying to tell us that they were asleep,
that they died in their sleep, does what kind of
(33:00):
assessment did you actually do on the bodies as far
as post mortem interval and all those things, because as
it turned out, things didn't go to trial and if
you needed that critical bit of information, because we're all
about timelines, aren't we. It's not just the injuries themselves.
You know that that goes into question your your I
(33:25):
don't know your compli pract right, and so you're and
then you contect you you try to contextualize the injuries
and as we found out with Kaylee, I'm not saying
that that Maddie's were were not brutal. It truly was.
She was attacked over and over again, over again with
(33:46):
a sharp instrument. But Kaylee, there's so much anger involved
in this day. And I'm talking about fractured facial facial structures,
you know, the driving of its blade, you know, into
her face. Uh. And we talked about the blunt force trauma.
You had mentioned it earlier where and there. Do you
remember there were these weird patterns that they talked about,
(34:08):
these kind of linear circum circum not circumventual, but but
there were these kind of weird looking patterns. And I
felt like that those patterns matched up with the handle
on k bar, you know, because they're grooved. Uh. And
also I remember talking about how that knife, if you
(34:28):
look at it, the knife is a military knife, and
so it's not just essentially used. I think people think
military knife that it's used as as a means to
attack another person. It's not, because when you're in the military,
you need something a utility knife that serves a multiple
a multiplicity of purpose. Uh. If you flip that k
(34:50):
bar over upside down so that it's inverted to handle itself,
the end of the handle. The butt of it looks
like a hammer head. I think it's even protagonal or
pentagonal in shape. It's got edges on it, so you
can use it like in the field if you want
to reseal a box or you're trying to nail something up,
you could flip that knife over and use it as
(35:12):
a hammer. That's that's one of the things that they're
seeing here, you know, with Kaylee, and they're contained in
this area. But she did in fact fight back. We
know that she did. We've got a combination of DNA
that's found beneath her fingernails. You know, at the scene.
(35:32):
There's contact that's going on. So no, in answer to
the big question here, they did not die in their sleep, Dave.
That's just not that's not a reality. It's not a
real thing.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Well, the one thing we did find out beyond okay, upstairs,
we understand that that was in all probability the first attack,
because it's the only one that actually makes sense when
you look at what transpired. So COBT goes up the
stairs attacks now based on other physical evidence and audio evidence,
(36:07):
kay Legan's Xanda Kernodle, here's something going on upstairs and
goes up the stairs to check. Now, this is the
Dave mac theory of what took place. Because they never
actually said this out loud. There have been a lot
of comments about what possibly happened, but based on everything
we looked at, it sounded to me that Xana, who
(36:30):
is that got her food from Jack in the Box
and sitting there eating Ethan, is crashed out in the
bed sleep and she hears something going on. It sounds
more than just playing around, and it sounds you know,
you're gonna hear a struggle. That sounds a lot different
than anything else you've ever heard before, so you're gonna
go check it out. And it sounded to me that
Xana went up the stairs to see what was going on.
(36:54):
And I think it was Xana startling Coberg that caused
him to leave that knife shep because he wasn't thinking
at that point. It was paniced. He thought he was
getting away with killing these girls and private nobody's going
to catch him.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, and that's I think that you're spot on there.
And of course that brings us to the number one
most downloaded episode of Bodybacks for twenty twenty five, and
this episode entitled Shocking Truth Xanna caught BK and fought
the devil, and boy did she ever. You know, how
(37:29):
many times do you think Dave, over the course of
her living in this space with her friends upstairs, how
many times do you think that maybe late nights she
had egressed up that staircase just to go have a chat, yep,
just to talk about what your day was like, or
maybe share food. Hey, the deliveries here, I'll just bring
it up and we'll sit on the floor and we'll eat,
(37:51):
you know. And so this one particular time, Xana, for
whatever number of reasons, whether it was she was alerted
to who some type of sound or or something had happened.
I think that going back to the comment, and I'm
still interested in what where this comment arises about. You
(38:14):
can hear a person say I'm going to help you,
and that's that's very sinister. Oh my lord, that is
And we heard about that early on, didn't we.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yes, we did.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Yeah, And and the fact, you know, you you begin
to look back at this thing and you think about
how dark this case really was. Uh. But yeah, it
turns out that that you know Xanna, who we learned
a lot about her family and kind of the status
of her life, you know, just trying to make her
(38:45):
way in this world. Uh, trying to you know, fit
in with everybody else. She's got a boyfriend that's over
with her, in in in the person of Ethan, who's
in the bed. Uh he's you know, later found it
looks as though that he he was in bed. You know,
we thought, you know, early on, you know, there were
(39:07):
all these things that had come up, you know, where
he you know, he may have been in the doorway,
you know, there was a lot of the speculative uh
stuff that was floating about there. But Xana alerted and David,
do you think that he chased her about that floor?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
I think that when she was up the stairs, okay,
trying to I think that, like most of us, I
heard something. I'm gonna go check it out. And as
we get closer to it, we slowed down to get
an eyeball and that's when maybe he turned, maybe she
gassed maybe, you know, I don't know, but I think
he came out of that room, chasing her down the stairs.
I think he caught her and that was where the
(39:45):
attack began, on the stairs, all the way down into
the room. Based on the injuries, and where she was
actually found. I believe that's what happened. And again, now
going back to some of the things that were said
you mentioned and the term of Coberger's saying I'm going
to help you. You know, that was something that we
heard early on, and I put a lot of stock
(40:09):
in that because it sounds like something you know, evil
would say.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, it really does, just so that I can I'm
going to help you, just so I can get closer
to you, you know, exactly. You put your guard down.
I'm here to help you. I really, you know. There's
all kinds of what ifs in this case, Dave. There
always will be because we still don't we still don't
have a weapon, right, and there will always be all
kinds of what ifs relative to it. But it's it's
(40:36):
I find it particularly interesting that Xanna, in her own way,
was kind of a key I think, to establishing the
timeline and the activities you know, up till that point.
When she stepped out of that room, she sealed her fate,
I think at that point in time because still even
(40:56):
though he had he was in a position where he
had two victims and maybe he was only counting on one.
This is something he can still control, Dave. Okay, and
as you look into those dead eyes that he has,
you know that he wanted to be in control of everything.
(41:17):
Xana is the red herring here. You know, she pops
onto the radar. He's alerted to her and what she's doing.
You know that I've been spotted. Now. You know, hell
is about to follow, you know, because I've got to
kill anybody that is going to get in my way.
The rest of these the one roommate that peeked out
(41:40):
of the door, she needs to get down on her
knees every single day of her life and think the
sweet Lord above that she's still with us, because I
think that a lot of it has to do that.
He was just exhausted at that point. You know, no
one will ever convince me any different that this was
not sexually motivated thing that was going on. And it's
(42:02):
almost like a climax had taken place with him, this release,
if you will, and then he's running on pure adrenaline
and anger. You know, how dare you you know, interrupt
what I'm doing here? And you know, when you take
the total view of this case and the dynamics of it,
(42:23):
and also the the interesting way that a lot of
the data was communicated to everybody out there that's sitting
and watching this every day. I don't know that there
will ever be another case like this. I hope that
there won't be, but you and I know, I know
that I might be a bit more jaded than you,
(42:45):
but I think I know that I think we understand
that there will be something that will arise that will
be absolutely horrific. I don't think that there will be
anytime in the foreseeable future where the names of these
victims and the events of that night will be struck
(43:05):
from our memory. It's something that will stay with us
forever and ever. And Dave, I got to say to you,
it's been my deep pleasure to talk about these cases
and hopefully be of some service to people that try
to understand the dynamics of injuries and understand forensics a
little bit better. Because this in and of itself is
(43:26):
probably one of the more complicated cases that we've had
to go through. I hope that I've done my best
as a teacher and someone that tries to keep the
public informed. It's been a great year for us. Twenty
twenty five has been and we look forward to a
great twenty twenty six with body Bags. So I'd like
to say just thank you, Dave, thank you for everything
(43:47):
you've done for the show and for me personally. And
I have a good feeling that twenty twenty six is
going to have great things in store for both of
us and for the show.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
What say you, I'm right back at you. I think
I'm appreciative of how you've been able to I'm appreciative
of the fact that you share your knowledge, you know
your history, and not just your book knowledge, but your
history in the field to help all of us understand
the crimes better more than just the fascination, the preurery
(44:19):
and interests that most many people have, to actually get
into the mechanations of what took place, how it happened,
and what these things mean. A lot of times we
jump to conclusions, those of us who are not educated,
you know, we think something means something that it doesn't,
and you actually have a way of breaking that down
to show us that something we didn't find important actually
(44:42):
is the turn of the case. And I'm appreciative of that.
It has been a great year and I look forward
to twenty twenty six. The show continues to grow, and
it's because of you, and I don't know. My only
recommendation is that maybe instead of doing twenty seven shows
a day, that maybe you take it down to twenty
five because you know you have You've become the go
(45:08):
to guy by every network, and congratulations for that. I've
watched you, oh well, thank you from the beginning to
where you are now, and it's been phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Right, well, I couldn't do it with that your sage,
advice and ladies and gentlemen, I got the best producer
in the business. Dave mac is on fire with everything
he does. He is a great colleague, and most of all,
he's a great friend. And we look forward. Dave and
I both look forward. We're going to be journeying out
over the course of twenty twenty six and will have
(45:40):
a couple of stops along the way. I hope that
we see you guys out there, come up and chat
with us. We'll be glad to entertain your thoughts and
have a conversation, maybe even a cup of coffee. You
never know, But thank you again, my friends, thank you
for a great twenty twenty five, and here's to the
upcoming year. Twenty six. I pray for peace for everyone.
(46:03):
I pray for peace for our country, and most of all,
I pray for peace for the families, families that are
left behind the wake of all of the horror that's
out there. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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