February 19, 2026 • 37 mins
The Elmira Police Department named Alfred Raymond Murray Jr. as the lone suspect in the 1964 murder of 12-year-old Mary Simpson.
The case remained unsolved for 62 years, but it was never forgotten. After getting a grant from the Season of Justice in 2022, Elmira police, with the assistance of the FBI, reopened the case using modern forensic methods.
In 2023, the Elmira Police Department partnered with the Criminal Investigation Resource Center at Russell Sage College, and the case was organized and digitized, allowing for a review of evidence and forensics.
Forensic evidence from the case was sent to Othram's laboratory in the Woodlands, Texas, where scientists were able to build a comprehensive DNA profile of the unknown suspect.
The profile was used by the FBI's forensic genetic genealogy team, and working together with the Elmira Police Department, investigators found the suspect, Alfred Raymond Murray Jr.
Murray died on March 16, 2004, at the age of 73, almost 40 years to the day. Mary Simpson vanished on March 15, 1964. She was 12.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.00 Introduction Update Mary Simpson
05:12.41 Finding identity of killer
10:00.17 A rookie cop in 1964 would be in his/her 80s now
15:00.91 Community was looking for Mary Simpson, 12
20:03.67 Killer shoved dirt in Mary's mouth
25:04.15 Predator will stand over victim
30:40.23 Othram did genetic genealogy
31:37.91 Murray may have been responsible for multiple sexual assaults on children for years
34:57.02 Mary's body covered in rocks and dirt, choked to death
37:02.08 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Body bats, But Joseph's gotten.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
More all the small things true care, truth brings. I'll
take one lift your ride, best trip always. I know
you'll be at my show, watching, waiting, commiserating. That's the
(00:26):
opening line from a Blink one e two song that
came out many years ago. Now, obviously this deals with
an individual's love life. But there is truth in here,
particularly as it applies to forensics. It is in fact
all of the small things. And I would submit to
(00:48):
you that if you take true care, you will have truth.
But sometimes truth doesn't come in them, idiot. Sometimes it
takes a day, a week, a month, or maybe over
(01:09):
sixty years. Today we're going to be speaking about a
case that we have already spoken of. As a matter
of fact, this is a follow up. It's a follow
up involving the rape and murder of a young girl
(01:32):
from way way back in the early sixties. Today, once
again we are going to take up the case of
Mary Simpson. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Brother Dave.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You never know what element of any particular case, at
any particular time is going to factor in to the
solving of a case. And today I've got a number
I want to give you. Okay, this is one of
those numbers where to say that it's mind blowing is
(02:17):
kind of an understatement, because when you think about Mary's
case that we have previously mentioned, it's one of our
author cases. We knew that she had met a very
brutal end, but we didn't know who perpetrated her death, right,
And it was stated at that particular time when we
(02:40):
did that initial episode that all things would be revealed. Well,
they were revealed, and this number that this involves goes
back to how those investigators all the way back in
time handled Mary's case with such care that they preserved
(03:02):
the items that would in fact lead back to the solving.
The number I want to give you is zero point
zero three nanograms. Now, to put it in perspective, when
(03:24):
you think about a nanogram, it's obviously part of the
nanogram is a measurement that's used within the metric system.
So just to kind of round this out, okay, we
have milligrams. People are familiar with milligrams as they apply
to medications that you might take, and a milligram is
(03:49):
one thousandth of a gram, all right, So below a
milligram is actually a microgram, and so a microgram is
one millionth of a gram. Dave, a nanogram. A nanogram
(04:10):
is so tiny, is so tiny, it is one billionth
of a gram. Okay, now the aforementioned evidence, hold onto
your hat here, because here comes the reveal that they
used in order to find the identity of Little Mary's
(04:32):
killer was zero point zero three nanograms. It's an astronomical number.
That's all of the biological evidence that they had remaining
after years of testing. And it's almost like it's almost
(04:58):
like trying to time the moon launch. You know, you
have to be very exacting, very precise if you want
to make sure that your astronauts get there. Uh, there's
other calculations that we can do as as as as
an example, so.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I think nanogram was when my granny made me, you know,
a banana pie, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, no, no, this is so this is when Mary
and we had already talked about this when Mary was
brutally brutally murders Joe.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Is that we said when we were doing the show, Yeah,
that we knew it had been solved, which is why
we did the show. But the Almira police were not
ready to release the name of the individual. Yeah, but
they had set a time for it, and at the
time you and I thought, well, we will do an update.
I'll put an I'll put an asterisk on the show
and say here's your update, here's the guy that did it.
(05:59):
But when that update came, it was so significant Joe
reaches out and said, day, we need to do an
update show. That's why we're doing this is to just
add an asterisk and put a name next to it.
Was not enough to do an update this case. This
young little girl deserved more, She deserved better and this criminal, Joe,
(06:25):
I'm going to ask you one very simple question before
you go and tell us everything else. He was the
suspect passing through or did he live in Elmira?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
He lived there.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
He lived there, within probably five miles of Mary's home.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know it's kind of rote to say, but you
know there are demons among us, hiding night, Yeah, hiding
in playing sight. This case actually kind of out of
all the ones that we've recently done. I thought about
this twelve year old girl that was found out there
in this kind of forested area and left, and it
(07:13):
really pricked my heart.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Man.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I mean it was and it had been going on,
you know, for sixty one years. I think in Mary's case,
she has a sister who is up up in age and.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Older than Mary name and Mary.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and you know, me and brother Dave, we we
want to honor the dead, We want to keep we
want to breathe life into these lives that have been
led and that these people and families have been robbed of.
(07:51):
And you know, you get a case like Mary, brother,
they ain't ain't too many people left, man, man, you know,
and how many more are there out there there like this, you.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Know, and the city Elmira worked on it. They never
let this case.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
They never ever did.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
They held on and I understand why it's so close.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It is a big time Joe come.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
On, yeah, I know. And a big tip of the
cap to Elmira on this. And they're chief of police,
oh my lord boy, just to push through with this.
But yeah, so what we understand is that and I
found this kind of interesting when they collected they saved
Mary's dress that she had on and her underwear and Dave,
(08:38):
they actually knew enough to put them in the freezer.
Oh wow, point in time.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, that's the first time you've actually said that out loud.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's the first time. Yeah, And so I don't know
how it was packaged. I'm assuming it was probably which
is still kind of the the standard. Maybe packaged in
brown paper bag and sealed, placed into a freezer of
some kind, and it had to be transferred. Over the years,
(09:09):
you know, things will break down, but they maintained the integrity.
And that's something we talk a lot about in forensics,
the integrity of scenes and the integrity of evidence. And
I don't know, there's been a lot of cases lately
that shall remain unnamed where I have been kind of
(09:32):
shredded over by virtue of what I'm seeing as far
as forensic practice out there, and I say that I'm
going to use the negative to teach my kids with
at Jack State, Dave, this is one of those cases
where I would hold this up as a positive case
doing all the right things, because you know, investigators are
(09:53):
dead and gone, dead and gone. Man. You know some
guy that may have been thirty and sixties, you know,
in the early sixties or forty working as a detective
and investigator, there's a high probability he's no longer with us.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
But those key.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Cop at twenty two years old in nineteen sixty. It
would be in his eighties now.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. And it wouldn't have
been a rookie cop working this. It would have been,
probably by their measure, a seasoned investigator up there in
Elmira and New York. But you know, it's isn't it
interesting how it kind of echoes through Tom the steps
that you take back during that period of time, even
though you were shy of the you know, of the technology,
(10:38):
you didn't have it, but you plug into it and
all of that work. You know, what a great legacy
to leave behind. You know, there's that old story and
I don't know if this is true or not. Maybe
you can validate this for me. Did they actually decapitate
Disney when he died and Crouch anically froze his body?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Is that real? I'd heard that about.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Ted Williams too, And you know they wanted in order
so that the science could catch up with the body,
you know. And I don't know if those stories are
true or not. I've heard them mentioned over the years,
but this is one of those things where brother science
did in fact catch up. It caught up with this
case of Mary Mary Simpson. But the beauty part is
(11:31):
it caught up with the perpetrator as well. Unfortunately he
doesn't get to pay the price, at least in this life. Dave,
(11:59):
let's step back just a second, because you know, I'm
assuming that everybody has heard the story, but there's probably
people that haven't. I think that it would be really
good for our friends to, you know, let's revisit, you know,
kind of what we know about what happened with Mary
leading up to, you know, ultimately the discovery of her remains.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Mary Simpson was twelve years old and she was walking
home from her grandmother's house. Now, this is one of
those stories, Joe, that when you and I were talking
about it, you realize there are parts of a story
that get told early that aren't necessarily as accurate as
(12:42):
the story you hear later, and they kind of get
blurred together. And this is a story similar to that,
but in every telling of the tale, twelve year old
Mary Simpson was walking from her relatives home to her
own home, all right, she was, And we're talking about Elmira,
(13:05):
And in Elmira, New York, this is an area near
the Pennsylvania state border, and it's not an urban jungle.
It's a very country area and a very small area
in that everybody pretty much knows one another. So walking
(13:25):
down the street in nineteen sixty four not an uncommon occurrence.
As twelve year old Mary was walking near East Market
and Harriet Streets in Elmira, New York. She didn't return
to her home that evening and her father reports her missing.
Immediately searches began. They didn't begin with a call to
(13:52):
the police. They were all they being family and friends,
were already searching for Mary the minute she didn't come home.
Minute it was realized, Hey, she should already be here.
Let's retrace her footstep. She's not here, she's not there,
let's look. I think they looked for three hours before
they actually notified the police, and by the time they did,
everybody in town pretty much knew we got a twelve
(14:12):
year old missing. We had something like that happen here
and where I live in a very small area as well.
And the same thing happened a couple of weeks ago
while Brailer was at wrestling practice. Hannah called and she said, Dad,
there's a kid missing. And I'm like how old? She
was like eight, you know, And so I'm not kidding.
(14:34):
She finds out about it at practice at the high school.
I go there fifteen minutes later, and within thirty minutes
people are fanned out looking okay, And by the time
police were called, which was only about an hour later,
maybe maybe not even that long, we found a little
boy okay, and thankfully he wasn't taken off. He really
was lost. He is a a seven eight year old
(14:57):
boy who actually did walk away following a dog. And anyway,
I say that because that's kind of what I thought
of with this story. They were already really looking. Family friends,
people are getting involved before they actually say we can't
find here, call the police, and the police come in
and we're talking ten o'clock at night. They start looking,
they don't stop looking. What we did find out in
(15:18):
investigating this story is that this was a town turned
upside down looking for twelve year old Mary Simpson because
she vanished.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Mary's body was discovered.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Can you imagine stuff like this. It doesn't happen, right,
you know, we think about it. You know you were
mentioning this child that went missing near where you live, right, Well, yeah,
I mean it does happen. Of course, that had a
very happy ending. But yeah, dude, back in the sixties
like this, in the early sixties, it just it didn't happen,
(15:54):
do you remember. I mean people talk about this. You
had accountability. See how I canna say this? There was
There was neighborhood accountability with kids. You know, if you
were doing something wrong out in the street, somebody, one
of your neighbors would come out and chastise you for
it and say I'm going to tell your mom, I'm
going to or grab you by the wrist and drag
(16:16):
you home and say guess what I saw them doing.
And it wasn't a matter of like the parents saying,
don't you put your hands on my kid. You know,
they'd look at their kid and say, mssus Smith said
you were doing something?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
What were you doing? You know like that. It was
a different world, dude, it really was.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because back then
your neighbor could beat you if you were wrong. You know. Yeah, now,
well now it doesn't happen so and some things are good,
some things are bad. But in that I'm so glad
you pointed out because there was an accountability that everybody
felt involved and got involved and now that we know
what actually happened, I wonder if the purp actually got
(16:55):
out there and helped.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Look, Oh my gosh, now think about that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Mary's Simpson's body was found after four days, and she
was discovered in a wooded area near Combs Hill Road
in Southport by the Way. Until recently, I hadn't given
out names of streets and things like that when we
do stories, because if you're not from the area, it
doesn't mean a lot. But you know, I have found
myself using Google Earth and other map things to look
(17:23):
and I did with this particular story. I wanted to
know what does it look like now, because if it's
rustic now, if it's still countryfiede now you know it
was that way then yes, And that's why I said
at the very beginning, Joe, this was a country area,
very rural. But four days and when they did find her,
(17:44):
her remains have been partially concealed under debris and large stones.
Investigators determined she had been sexually assaulted and strangled. Her
mouth had been stuffed with twigs and dirt, and I wondered, Joe,
if the stuffing of the twigs and the dirt was
(18:04):
significant psychologically or would it have destroyed evidence left behind.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'm so glad you asked that question because it popped
into my mind just a moment ago. I don't recall
ever having had a case where I've had cases where
people have had debris in their mouth and its primarily
happens with drowning, but in a homicide, I don't recall
ever having had this. And to your point, I think
(18:35):
there's a couple of ways to look at this. First off,
it goes to a lack of preparedness on the part
of the individual that was facilitating this, and maybe panic
set in. So you know, just like we talk about
weapons of opportunity, and I think that you could use
(18:56):
something like this in order to muffle sound, and that is,
you know, an object or items that are opportunistic on
the part of this individual because he's trying to quiet
her down. I can only imagine she did not go willingly.
Investigators are now speculating, I think, and I'd come across
(19:18):
this bit that she was either snatched or lured into
a vehicle to facilitate the distance where she wound up.
That this is not something that and it's not a
huge distance. Don't get me wrong because I know you
were talking about geography, but they really think that she
had been in a vehicle, and I found that that
quite compelling. But here here's something else too, Dave. We
(19:43):
talk about convenience, but here's another part this could also
be there's this is kind of it lists into this
area of utter humiliation where you're controlling somebody, you're actually
stuffing dirt into their mouth. This little, precious twelve year
(20:04):
old girl, so very innocent, you know, had you know,
gone to grandma's house. I was on our way to
Grandma's house, and you know, she's there in her little
skirt and it's it's cold out too. You know, this
was not in the warmest time of the year, you
know when this occurred. I wonder what other kind of
(20:27):
clothing items that she had and what became of those.
But the brutality of this, and another piece that I
found out, Dave, and this was really striking to me.
Apparently the area where she was found was locally known
as a lover's lane. I know, right, And listen, you know,
(20:50):
back in my younger days, we all knew where to
go to watch the quote unquote submarine races. Right, You've
heard that term before, you know, and everybody he was
aware of that, and the community would be aware of it.
But Tave didn't it. They didn't make it out there
in their search as someone else other than the search
(21:12):
party found her.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, it was a dad and his sons that were
out hunting or out for a hike, I think, yeah, yeah,
and they just kind of came across this area. That
was what they had not been searched. One thing I
did want to point out, the population of Elmira Joe
was in decline at the time this happened. It was
to give you an idea about forty six thousand people
(21:37):
lived in Elmira in the early sixties spread out. This
is not like a huge, you know, a very small area.
It spread out county wide. But the population was on
in decline in nineteen fifty it was just under fifty thousand.
By nineteen seventy under forty thousand, So there was a
twenty thousand person decline or a ten thousand person and
(22:00):
decline rather from nineteen fifty to nineteen seventy. So that's
why I asked you early on, was the guy they
actually discovered was the suspect. Was he in Elmira at
the time because it's a population in decline. I mean,
new people are not moving in. The people that are
there have been there and that makes it even more
(22:23):
sick when you get down to the nitty gritty. So
you've got an area that's not searched, as you mentioned,
a lover's lane. Those areas are a bit outside of
town because you need privacy. You need an area of darkness,
an area that has some blockage from the road so
you can't just be seen, which is what transpired here.
(22:44):
That's why it took four days and again her body
was not found by people searching for her. Although this
man and his sons could have been hiking to look
for they.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Could have been yeah, yeah, yeah, and they would have
been aware, right yes, I mean you can imagine how
that news would have traveled. And it was some days
later before they found her. But you know, this just
goes to show that even in the smallest of towns,
no matter where you are, evil can visit at any
(23:20):
moment in time. Dave. You remember I had mentioned earlier
about the measurement, right, we think about what was left behind. Well,
(23:46):
it turns out that the sourcing of this biological element
was not blood, it was not saliva. It was ejaculate.
So we're talking about semen that was deposited. And for
people that don't know the average male, and this is
(24:08):
very broad ranging as to volume, the average male is
going to ejaculate anywhere from one point five to five
grams of ejaculate. Okay, So with her remaining after all
(24:29):
of these years, this is why I'm saying, it's like
threadning a needle. Dude, they had point zero three nanograms
remaining out of that initial deposition. And you know, we
can you know how I talked about the humiliation factor.
You know, with the dirt in the mouth, there is
(24:51):
a high probability that she may have been deceased when
he ejaculated. And this does happen with sexual predators. And again,
and I don't want to be too grotesque here, but
you know, this is body bags. I got to talk
(25:11):
about it. There will be these times where these predators
will stand over a victim and they want to be
able to look them in the eye and perform this
way before them because it's the ultimate and humiliation. Okay,
what a horrible thing to think about about this precious
(25:33):
young girl that this happens to and this may very
well have occurred after her death. It could I guess
it could have been anti mortem. But he wanted to
shut her up. So what does he do. Well, he
asphyxiates her and he stuffs things in her mouth. And
(25:53):
you know, I don't know. There's no way that we
could ever really know if this was this event of
the ejaculation onto her body was anti mortem or post mortem,
but yet there it is, and they were able to
preserve it. Dave. They said that all of these years later,
(26:16):
after it was determined that they the police said that
they knew who this was that did this. They had
a separate release that came just a few days ago.
So while we're back on the air where they said
that they were going to identify and Buddy.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Did they ever Oh my gosh, Joe, when they called
the press conference for February tenth, and we were watching
it as the very beginning, I told you we were
just going to say, you know, put a tag on here,
here's the name of the guy. But we found out
the man that committed this offense was named Alfred Raymond
(26:57):
Murray Junior. He was thirty two years old at the
time he murdered Mary Simpson, who was twelve. He was
thirty two years old. Then he died in two thousand
and four, so there was no justice. No, But Joe,
(27:22):
I think about this and I'm thinking, he lives forty
years after he murders this twelve year old. He's living
in that community. Every year, they're doing searches, every year,
they're talking about it. This isn't a case that just
went away. It was a real stain for Elmira in
a positive way in that the community took it upon themselves.
(27:45):
We've got to solve this. This is not us, you know,
letting this go is not us. And the law enforcement
there stayed with it. They didn't let it go and
they kept pulling it back out and Joe, it took
a lot of work to solve this case. It wasn't
just getting this little bit of evidence tested. It took
(28:07):
time to pull all of the files together to just
take You've got sixty years of evidence. Every interview that
was conducted has to be digitized, and you know, you
got to put it where it can be searched, where
it can be here. Because everything even though you get
authorm and they can put together you know, the technical aspects,
which is still mind blowing to somebody with my limited mental.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Queen to do a live recording of bodybacks from AUTHRUM headquarters,
that's what we need to do. Wouldn't that be cool?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I don't know if I could speak in those in
the presence of those individuals. I feel like I really.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Ought too, though, But yeah, that's that's what's amazing. I
got to let me let me throw out another another
shout out here. There's a college that, yeah, it's up
there named russell Sage College, and their professor, there's a
(29:03):
professor there that took it upon themselves to get to
get this group of students together, and Dave. They they reviewed.
Now get this if you want to, if you want
to talk about the train not stopping, Dave, there are
six thousand documents related to Mary's homicide, six thousand and
(29:28):
those kids reviewed every bit of that. And you know
that this kind of leads back to not quitting on
a case. Interestingly enough, with this this uh, this guy,
you know person that has been identified this Murray fellow.
(29:49):
Did you know that the case had been taken up
again in two thousand and three he was at that
moment time dying. He had some kind of terminal illness
and would die a year later. They had taken remember
how the there was a diminishment of the sample, Well,
(30:13):
they had plugged the sample into CODIS, the National date
database for sexual assault, and they came up with zilch.
It wasn't until twoenty twenty two to twenty three in
that time period where this university gets a hold of it.
(30:34):
It breathes new life into Mary's case. And the police
up there were resolute and saying, look, we're going to
get this thing salved. Let's check out author them and
see what they can offer here. And sure enough they
got a bingo on this thing and it came back
(30:54):
through you know, their forensic genetic genealogy that they can do.
But dave one troubling thing that the chief of police
mentioned in this. They believe that Alfred Murray, who is
a father or was a father and a grandfather, was
(31:19):
responsible perhaps for multiple sexual assaults wait for it, on
children over the years. And this had started all the
way back well lord only knows you know what he
had done prior to Mary. Okay, and then how many
(31:43):
of these cases are there? They're not saying at this
point in time, did any of them end up like
Mary's case. One person was opining about the fact that
he may have not have been a a murderer, but
he he was a sexual assaulter and she put up
(32:07):
a fight and he panicked at that moment in time.
And look, no one will ever know, you know, what
the case is, you know, relative to that dynamic that
had occurred, you know, that evening out there on what
they're referring to as a lover's lane area. But you know,
the thread, give me a little license here, this genetic thread,
(32:29):
if you will, has continued own load these many years,
and you know, and it's it's through the efforts at
AUTHORM that the thing was eventually solved. But Authorm was
kind of the finish line here. It was all of
these detectives and technicians and the students and the community
you know, that stayed engaged with using and made sure
that they were going to push it across finish line.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Actually, I'm glad you have brought that up a couple
of different times about the community being involved because they
didn't allow it to continue, you know, or they didn't
allow to go on and just dust it under because
it was unpleasant, But this is what the chief of
police said. His record shows talking about Murray. His record
show's repeated criminal involvement over the decades involving offenses involving children.
(33:13):
While no single incident proves responsibility, this history is consistent
with the forensics findings and circumstances of this homicide, which
means there could have been a number of reports of
attacks on children that were never reported. I think the
shocking thing about this show are there any unsolved homicides
(33:35):
in the areas where Murray traveled, Because he was only
thirty two at the time, and we know that he
lived forty more years after that. I dare say, you
don't start with snatching a child off the street and
kill them within miles of where you snatched them, within
miles of where you live in the community where you're
(33:57):
raising your own children and grand children. That he didn't
do it somewhere else, and do even more before and after.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, you don't go to zero to a thousand. Okay,
this is a progression and what he has left in
his wake. And this guy, Dave on March the nineteenth,
twenty four was actually buried with full military honors. He
(34:34):
was honored flag drape coffin. He was buried in local
cemetery up there, And I think about Mary right now.
I think about her left alone in those woods, would
(34:55):
brush stacked all over, stones and garbage stuffed in her mouth,
having had the life choked out of her by this guy.
I'm never going to mention his name again, but I will.
(35:18):
I will in fact mention Mary. I'm going to say,
right now, Mary, Teresa Simpson, your case has been solved.
We're going to honor her. And this episode is dedicated
to not just Mary, but to her family, those that
(35:41):
remain in all of those people for all of these
years that have kept this case alive and brought it
to a resolution. There is always hope. There is always
hope in circumstances that seem in fact hopeless, and our
friends at Othram a part of that facilitation. Again, I
(36:04):
tell you, if there is any way that you can
check out authorm and their website dnasolves dot com, go there,
visit it, because you know there might be another case
in your little community that's much like Mary's. Okay, unsolved
families with empty chairs everywhere. Go there, take a look
(36:28):
at it, and you can select from any of the
cases on there, and they're not asking for fortune, they
just need a few bucks. Send some bucks that way.
Something that intrigues you, something that is intellectually stimulating, or
something that tugs at your heart strengths Okay, because Mary
was and is loved, and there's so many people out
(36:52):
there that seem like all hope has faded. In Mary's case,
it didn't, and we're so thankful for that. Here are bodybags.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Mhm.
Body bats, But Joseph's gotten.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
More all the small things true care, truth brings. I'll
take one lift your ride, best trip always. I know
you'll be at my show, watching, waiting, commiserating. That's the
(00:26):
opening line from a Blink one e two song that
came out many years ago. Now, obviously this deals with
an individual's love life. But there is truth in here,
particularly as it applies to forensics. It is in fact
all of the small things. And I would submit to
(00:48):
you that if you take true care, you will have truth.
But sometimes truth doesn't come in them, idiot. Sometimes it
takes a day, a week, a month, or maybe over
(01:09):
sixty years. Today we're going to be speaking about a
case that we have already spoken of. As a matter
of fact, this is a follow up. It's a follow
up involving the rape and murder of a young girl
(01:32):
from way way back in the early sixties. Today, once
again we are going to take up the case of
Mary Simpson. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Brother Dave.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You never know what element of any particular case, at
any particular time is going to factor in to the
solving of a case. And today I've got a number
I want to give you. Okay, this is one of
those numbers where to say that it's mind blowing is
(02:17):
kind of an understatement, because when you think about Mary's
case that we have previously mentioned, it's one of our
author cases. We knew that she had met a very
brutal end, but we didn't know who perpetrated her death, right,
And it was stated at that particular time when we
(02:40):
did that initial episode that all things would be revealed. Well,
they were revealed, and this number that this involves goes
back to how those investigators all the way back in
time handled Mary's case with such care that they preserved
(03:02):
the items that would in fact lead back to the solving.
The number I want to give you is zero point
zero three nanograms. Now, to put it in perspective, when
(03:24):
you think about a nanogram, it's obviously part of the
nanogram is a measurement that's used within the metric system.
So just to kind of round this out, okay, we
have milligrams. People are familiar with milligrams as they apply
to medications that you might take, and a milligram is
(03:49):
one thousandth of a gram, all right, So below a
milligram is actually a microgram, and so a microgram is
one millionth of a gram. Dave, a nanogram. A nanogram
(04:10):
is so tiny, is so tiny, it is one billionth
of a gram. Okay, now the aforementioned evidence, hold onto
your hat here, because here comes the reveal that they
used in order to find the identity of Little Mary's
(04:32):
killer was zero point zero three nanograms. It's an astronomical number.
That's all of the biological evidence that they had remaining
after years of testing. And it's almost like it's almost
(04:58):
like trying to time the moon launch. You know, you
have to be very exacting, very precise if you want
to make sure that your astronauts get there. Uh, there's
other calculations that we can do as as as as
an example, so.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
I think nanogram was when my granny made me, you know,
a banana pie, you know.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Yeah, no, no, this is so this is when Mary
and we had already talked about this when Mary was
brutally brutally murders Joe.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Is that we said when we were doing the show, Yeah,
that we knew it had been solved, which is why
we did the show. But the Almira police were not
ready to release the name of the individual. Yeah, but
they had set a time for it, and at the
time you and I thought, well, we will do an update.
I'll put an I'll put an asterisk on the show
and say here's your update, here's the guy that did it.
(05:59):
But when that update came, it was so significant Joe
reaches out and said, day, we need to do an
update show. That's why we're doing this is to just
add an asterisk and put a name next to it.
Was not enough to do an update this case. This
young little girl deserved more, She deserved better and this criminal, Joe,
(06:25):
I'm going to ask you one very simple question before
you go and tell us everything else. He was the
suspect passing through or did he live in Elmira?
Speaker 1 (06:38):
He lived there.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
He lived there, within probably five miles of Mary's home.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You know it's kind of rote to say, but you
know there are demons among us, hiding night, Yeah, hiding
in playing sight. This case actually kind of out of
all the ones that we've recently done. I thought about
this twelve year old girl that was found out there
in this kind of forested area and left, and it
(07:13):
really pricked my heart.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Man.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
I mean it was and it had been going on,
you know, for sixty one years. I think in Mary's case,
she has a sister who is up up in age and.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Older than Mary name and Mary.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
Yeah, and you know, me and brother Dave, we we
want to honor the dead, We want to keep we
want to breathe life into these lives that have been
led and that these people and families have been robbed of.
(07:51):
And you know, you get a case like Mary, brother,
they ain't ain't too many people left, man, man, you know,
and how many more are there out there there like this, you.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Know, and the city Elmira worked on it. They never
let this case.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
They never ever did.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
They held on and I understand why it's so close.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It is a big time Joe come.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
On, yeah, I know. And a big tip of the
cap to Elmira on this. And they're chief of police,
oh my lord boy, just to push through with this.
But yeah, so what we understand is that and I
found this kind of interesting when they collected they saved
Mary's dress that she had on and her underwear and Dave,
(08:38):
they actually knew enough to put them in the freezer.
Oh wow, point in time.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, that's the first time you've actually said that out loud.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's the first time. Yeah, And so I don't know
how it was packaged. I'm assuming it was probably which
is still kind of the the standard. Maybe packaged in
brown paper bag and sealed, placed into a freezer of
some kind, and it had to be transferred. Over the years,
(09:09):
you know, things will break down, but they maintained the integrity.
And that's something we talk a lot about in forensics,
the integrity of scenes and the integrity of evidence. And
I don't know, there's been a lot of cases lately
that shall remain unnamed where I have been kind of
(09:32):
shredded over by virtue of what I'm seeing as far
as forensic practice out there, and I say that I'm
going to use the negative to teach my kids with
at Jack State, Dave, this is one of those cases
where I would hold this up as a positive case
doing all the right things, because you know, investigators are
(09:53):
dead and gone, dead and gone. Man. You know some
guy that may have been thirty and sixties, you know,
in the early sixties or forty working as a detective
and investigator, there's a high probability he's no longer with us.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
But those key.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Cop at twenty two years old in nineteen sixty. It
would be in his eighties now.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, yeah, you're you're absolutely right. And it wouldn't have
been a rookie cop working this. It would have been,
probably by their measure, a seasoned investigator up there in
Elmira and New York. But you know, it's isn't it
interesting how it kind of echoes through Tom the steps
that you take back during that period of time, even
though you were shy of the you know, of the technology,
(10:38):
you didn't have it, but you plug into it and
all of that work. You know, what a great legacy
to leave behind. You know, there's that old story and
I don't know if this is true or not. Maybe
you can validate this for me. Did they actually decapitate
Disney when he died and Crouch anically froze his body?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Is that real? I'd heard that about.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Ted Williams too, And you know they wanted in order
so that the science could catch up with the body,
you know. And I don't know if those stories are
true or not. I've heard them mentioned over the years,
but this is one of those things where brother science
did in fact catch up. It caught up with this
case of Mary Mary Simpson. But the beauty part is
(11:31):
it caught up with the perpetrator as well. Unfortunately he
doesn't get to pay the price, at least in this life. Dave,
(11:59):
let's step back just a second, because you know, I'm
assuming that everybody has heard the story, but there's probably
people that haven't. I think that it would be really
good for our friends to, you know, let's revisit, you know,
kind of what we know about what happened with Mary
leading up to, you know, ultimately the discovery of her remains.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Mary Simpson was twelve years old and she was walking
home from her grandmother's house. Now, this is one of
those stories, Joe, that when you and I were talking
about it, you realize there are parts of a story
that get told early that aren't necessarily as accurate as
(12:42):
the story you hear later, and they kind of get
blurred together. And this is a story similar to that,
but in every telling of the tale, twelve year old
Mary Simpson was walking from her relatives home to her
own home, all right, she was, And we're talking about Elmira,
(13:05):
And in Elmira, New York, this is an area near
the Pennsylvania state border, and it's not an urban jungle.
It's a very country area and a very small area
in that everybody pretty much knows one another. So walking
(13:25):
down the street in nineteen sixty four not an uncommon occurrence.
As twelve year old Mary was walking near East Market
and Harriet Streets in Elmira, New York. She didn't return
to her home that evening and her father reports her missing.
Immediately searches began. They didn't begin with a call to
(13:52):
the police. They were all they being family and friends,
were already searching for Mary the minute she didn't come home.
Minute it was realized, Hey, she should already be here.
Let's retrace her footstep. She's not here, she's not there,
let's look. I think they looked for three hours before
they actually notified the police, and by the time they did,
everybody in town pretty much knew we got a twelve
(14:12):
year old missing. We had something like that happen here
and where I live in a very small area as well.
And the same thing happened a couple of weeks ago
while Brailer was at wrestling practice. Hannah called and she said, Dad,
there's a kid missing. And I'm like how old? She
was like eight, you know, And so I'm not kidding.
(14:34):
She finds out about it at practice at the high school.
I go there fifteen minutes later, and within thirty minutes
people are fanned out looking okay, And by the time
police were called, which was only about an hour later,
maybe maybe not even that long, we found a little
boy okay, and thankfully he wasn't taken off. He really
was lost. He is a a seven eight year old
(14:57):
boy who actually did walk away following a dog. And anyway,
I say that because that's kind of what I thought
of with this story. They were already really looking. Family friends,
people are getting involved before they actually say we can't
find here, call the police, and the police come in
and we're talking ten o'clock at night. They start looking,
they don't stop looking. What we did find out in
(15:18):
investigating this story is that this was a town turned
upside down looking for twelve year old Mary Simpson because
she vanished.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Mary's body was discovered.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Can you imagine stuff like this. It doesn't happen, right,
you know, we think about it. You know you were
mentioning this child that went missing near where you live, right, Well, yeah,
I mean it does happen. Of course, that had a
very happy ending. But yeah, dude, back in the sixties
like this, in the early sixties, it just it didn't happen,
(15:54):
do you remember. I mean people talk about this. You
had accountability. See how I canna say this? There was
There was neighborhood accountability with kids. You know, if you
were doing something wrong out in the street, somebody, one
of your neighbors would come out and chastise you for
it and say I'm going to tell your mom, I'm
going to or grab you by the wrist and drag
(16:16):
you home and say guess what I saw them doing.
And it wasn't a matter of like the parents saying,
don't you put your hands on my kid. You know,
they'd look at their kid and say, mssus Smith said
you were doing something?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
What were you doing? You know like that. It was
a different world, dude, it really was.
Speaker 3 (16:34):
I'm so glad you brought that up, because back then
your neighbor could beat you if you were wrong. You know. Yeah, now,
well now it doesn't happen so and some things are good,
some things are bad. But in that I'm so glad
you pointed out because there was an accountability that everybody
felt involved and got involved and now that we know
what actually happened, I wonder if the purp actually got
(16:55):
out there and helped.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Look, Oh my gosh, now think about that.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Mary's Simpson's body was found after four days, and she
was discovered in a wooded area near Combs Hill Road
in Southport by the Way. Until recently, I hadn't given
out names of streets and things like that when we
do stories, because if you're not from the area, it
doesn't mean a lot. But you know, I have found
myself using Google Earth and other map things to look
(17:23):
and I did with this particular story. I wanted to
know what does it look like now, because if it's
rustic now, if it's still countryfiede now you know it
was that way then yes, And that's why I said
at the very beginning, Joe, this was a country area,
very rural. But four days and when they did find her,
(17:44):
her remains have been partially concealed under debris and large stones.
Investigators determined she had been sexually assaulted and strangled. Her
mouth had been stuffed with twigs and dirt, and I wondered, Joe,
if the stuffing of the twigs and the dirt was
(18:04):
significant psychologically or would it have destroyed evidence left behind.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
I'm so glad you asked that question because it popped
into my mind just a moment ago. I don't recall
ever having had a case where I've had cases where
people have had debris in their mouth and its primarily
happens with drowning, but in a homicide, I don't recall
ever having had this. And to your point, I think
(18:35):
there's a couple of ways to look at this. First off,
it goes to a lack of preparedness on the part
of the individual that was facilitating this, and maybe panic
set in. So you know, just like we talk about
weapons of opportunity, and I think that you could use
(18:56):
something like this in order to muffle sound, and that is,
you know, an object or items that are opportunistic on
the part of this individual because he's trying to quiet
her down. I can only imagine she did not go willingly.
Investigators are now speculating, I think, and I'd come across
(19:18):
this bit that she was either snatched or lured into
a vehicle to facilitate the distance where she wound up.
That this is not something that and it's not a
huge distance. Don't get me wrong because I know you
were talking about geography, but they really think that she
had been in a vehicle, and I found that that
quite compelling. But here here's something else too, Dave. We
(19:43):
talk about convenience, but here's another part this could also
be there's this is kind of it lists into this
area of utter humiliation where you're controlling somebody, you're actually
stuffing dirt into their mouth. This little, precious twelve year
(20:04):
old girl, so very innocent, you know, had you know,
gone to grandma's house. I was on our way to
Grandma's house, and you know, she's there in her little
skirt and it's it's cold out too. You know, this
was not in the warmest time of the year, you
know when this occurred. I wonder what other kind of
(20:27):
clothing items that she had and what became of those.
But the brutality of this, and another piece that I
found out, Dave, and this was really striking to me.
Apparently the area where she was found was locally known
as a lover's lane. I know, right, And listen, you know,
(20:50):
back in my younger days, we all knew where to
go to watch the quote unquote submarine races. Right, You've
heard that term before, you know, and everybody he was
aware of that, and the community would be aware of it.
But Tave didn't it. They didn't make it out there
in their search as someone else other than the search
(21:12):
party found her.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Yeah, it was a dad and his sons that were
out hunting or out for a hike, I think, yeah, yeah,
and they just kind of came across this area. That
was what they had not been searched. One thing I
did want to point out, the population of Elmira Joe
was in decline at the time this happened. It was
to give you an idea about forty six thousand people
(21:37):
lived in Elmira in the early sixties spread out. This
is not like a huge, you know, a very small area.
It spread out county wide. But the population was on
in decline in nineteen fifty it was just under fifty thousand.
By nineteen seventy under forty thousand, So there was a
twenty thousand person decline or a ten thousand person and
(22:00):
decline rather from nineteen fifty to nineteen seventy. So that's
why I asked you early on, was the guy they
actually discovered was the suspect. Was he in Elmira at
the time because it's a population in decline. I mean,
new people are not moving in. The people that are
there have been there and that makes it even more
(22:23):
sick when you get down to the nitty gritty. So
you've got an area that's not searched, as you mentioned,
a lover's lane. Those areas are a bit outside of
town because you need privacy. You need an area of darkness,
an area that has some blockage from the road so
you can't just be seen, which is what transpired here.
(22:44):
That's why it took four days and again her body
was not found by people searching for her. Although this
man and his sons could have been hiking to look
for they.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Could have been yeah, yeah, yeah, and they would have
been aware, right yes, I mean you can imagine how
that news would have traveled. And it was some days
later before they found her. But you know, this just
goes to show that even in the smallest of towns,
no matter where you are, evil can visit at any
(23:20):
moment in time. Dave. You remember I had mentioned earlier
about the measurement, right, we think about what was left behind. Well,
(23:46):
it turns out that the sourcing of this biological element
was not blood, it was not saliva. It was ejaculate.
So we're talking about semen that was deposited. And for
people that don't know the average male, and this is
(24:08):
very broad ranging as to volume, the average male is
going to ejaculate anywhere from one point five to five
grams of ejaculate. Okay, So with her remaining after all
(24:29):
of these years, this is why I'm saying, it's like
threadning a needle. Dude, they had point zero three nanograms
remaining out of that initial deposition. And you know, we
can you know how I talked about the humiliation factor.
You know, with the dirt in the mouth, there is
(24:51):
a high probability that she may have been deceased when
he ejaculated. And this does happen with sexual predators. And again,
and I don't want to be too grotesque here, but
you know, this is body bags. I got to talk
(25:11):
about it. There will be these times where these predators
will stand over a victim and they want to be
able to look them in the eye and perform this
way before them because it's the ultimate and humiliation. Okay,
what a horrible thing to think about about this precious
(25:33):
young girl that this happens to and this may very
well have occurred after her death. It could I guess
it could have been anti mortem. But he wanted to
shut her up. So what does he do. Well, he
asphyxiates her and he stuffs things in her mouth. And
(25:53):
you know, I don't know. There's no way that we
could ever really know if this was this event of
the ejaculation onto her body was anti mortem or post mortem,
but yet there it is, and they were able to
preserve it. Dave. They said that all of these years later,
(26:16):
after it was determined that they the police said that
they knew who this was that did this. They had
a separate release that came just a few days ago.
So while we're back on the air where they said
that they were going to identify and Buddy.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Did they ever Oh my gosh, Joe, when they called
the press conference for February tenth, and we were watching
it as the very beginning, I told you we were
just going to say, you know, put a tag on here,
here's the name of the guy. But we found out
the man that committed this offense was named Alfred Raymond
(26:57):
Murray Junior. He was thirty two years old at the
time he murdered Mary Simpson, who was twelve. He was
thirty two years old. Then he died in two thousand
and four, so there was no justice. No, But Joe,
(27:22):
I think about this and I'm thinking, he lives forty
years after he murders this twelve year old. He's living
in that community. Every year, they're doing searches, every year,
they're talking about it. This isn't a case that just
went away. It was a real stain for Elmira in
a positive way in that the community took it upon themselves.
(27:45):
We've got to solve this. This is not us, you know,
letting this go is not us. And the law enforcement
there stayed with it. They didn't let it go and
they kept pulling it back out and Joe, it took
a lot of work to solve this case. It wasn't
just getting this little bit of evidence tested. It took
(28:07):
time to pull all of the files together to just
take You've got sixty years of evidence. Every interview that
was conducted has to be digitized, and you know, you
got to put it where it can be searched, where
it can be here. Because everything even though you get
authorm and they can put together you know, the technical aspects,
which is still mind blowing to somebody with my limited mental.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Queen to do a live recording of bodybacks from AUTHRUM headquarters,
that's what we need to do. Wouldn't that be cool?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
I don't know if I could speak in those in
the presence of those individuals. I feel like I really.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Ought too, though, But yeah, that's that's what's amazing. I
got to let me let me throw out another another
shout out here. There's a college that, yeah, it's up
there named russell Sage College, and their professor, there's a
(29:03):
professor there that took it upon themselves to get to
get this group of students together, and Dave. They they reviewed.
Now get this if you want to, if you want
to talk about the train not stopping, Dave, there are
six thousand documents related to Mary's homicide, six thousand and
(29:28):
those kids reviewed every bit of that. And you know
that this kind of leads back to not quitting on
a case. Interestingly enough, with this this uh, this guy,
you know person that has been identified this Murray fellow.
(29:49):
Did you know that the case had been taken up
again in two thousand and three he was at that
moment time dying. He had some kind of terminal illness
and would die a year later. They had taken remember
how the there was a diminishment of the sample, Well,
(30:13):
they had plugged the sample into CODIS, the National date
database for sexual assault, and they came up with zilch.
It wasn't until twoenty twenty two to twenty three in
that time period where this university gets a hold of it.
(30:34):
It breathes new life into Mary's case. And the police
up there were resolute and saying, look, we're going to
get this thing salved. Let's check out author them and
see what they can offer here. And sure enough they
got a bingo on this thing and it came back
(30:54):
through you know, their forensic genetic genealogy that they can do.
But dave one troubling thing that the chief of police
mentioned in this. They believe that Alfred Murray, who is
a father or was a father and a grandfather, was
(31:19):
responsible perhaps for multiple sexual assaults wait for it, on
children over the years. And this had started all the
way back well lord only knows you know what he
had done prior to Mary. Okay, and then how many
(31:43):
of these cases are there? They're not saying at this
point in time, did any of them end up like
Mary's case. One person was opining about the fact that
he may have not have been a a murderer, but
he he was a sexual assaulter and she put up
(32:07):
a fight and he panicked at that moment in time.
And look, no one will ever know, you know, what
the case is, you know, relative to that dynamic that
had occurred, you know, that evening out there on what
they're referring to as a lover's lane area. But you know,
the thread, give me a little license here, this genetic thread,
(32:29):
if you will, has continued own load these many years,
and you know, and it's it's through the efforts at
AUTHORM that the thing was eventually solved. But Authorm was
kind of the finish line here. It was all of
these detectives and technicians and the students and the community
you know, that stayed engaged with using and made sure
that they were going to push it across finish line.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Actually, I'm glad you have brought that up a couple
of different times about the community being involved because they
didn't allow it to continue, you know, or they didn't
allow to go on and just dust it under because
it was unpleasant, But this is what the chief of
police said. His record shows talking about Murray. His record
show's repeated criminal involvement over the decades involving offenses involving children.
(33:13):
While no single incident proves responsibility, this history is consistent
with the forensics findings and circumstances of this homicide, which
means there could have been a number of reports of
attacks on children that were never reported. I think the
shocking thing about this show are there any unsolved homicides
(33:35):
in the areas where Murray traveled, Because he was only
thirty two at the time, and we know that he
lived forty more years after that. I dare say, you
don't start with snatching a child off the street and
kill them within miles of where you snatched them, within
miles of where you live in the community where you're
(33:57):
raising your own children and grand children. That he didn't
do it somewhere else, and do even more before and after.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Yeah, you don't go to zero to a thousand. Okay,
this is a progression and what he has left in
his wake. And this guy, Dave on March the nineteenth,
twenty four was actually buried with full military honors. He
(34:34):
was honored flag drape coffin. He was buried in local
cemetery up there, And I think about Mary right now.
I think about her left alone in those woods, would
(34:55):
brush stacked all over, stones and garbage stuffed in her mouth,
having had the life choked out of her by this guy.
I'm never going to mention his name again, but I will.
(35:18):
I will in fact mention Mary. I'm going to say,
right now, Mary, Teresa Simpson, your case has been solved.
We're going to honor her. And this episode is dedicated
to not just Mary, but to her family, those that
(35:41):
remain in all of those people for all of these
years that have kept this case alive and brought it
to a resolution. There is always hope. There is always
hope in circumstances that seem in fact hopeless, and our
friends at Othram a part of that facilitation. Again, I
(36:04):
tell you, if there is any way that you can
check out authorm and their website dnasolves dot com, go there,
visit it, because you know there might be another case
in your little community that's much like Mary's. Okay, unsolved
families with empty chairs everywhere. Go there, take a look
(36:28):
at it, and you can select from any of the
cases on there, and they're not asking for fortune, they
just need a few bucks. Send some bucks that way.
Something that intrigues you, something that is intellectually stimulating, or
something that tugs at your heart strengths Okay, because Mary
was and is loved, and there's so many people out
(36:52):
there that seem like all hope has faded. In Mary's case,
it didn't, and we're so thankful for that. Here are bodybags.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Mhm.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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