February 24, 2026 • 47 mins
The 84-year-old mother of Today Show host Savannah Guthrie, Nancy Guthrie, was last seen January 31, 2026 around 9:47pm. The next day around noon, Nancy Guthrie is reported missing. More than three weeks later she is still missing. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack explore the forensic evidence left behind and how it has been treated by officials on the ground in an attempt to uncover the one piece of evidence that will bring Nancy Guthrie home.
Transcribe Highlights
00:02.33 Introduction - Security
01:07.26 Securing a Crime Scene
03:59.01 Nancy Guthrie - Why her?
08:44.60 Sheriff's department turned scene released back to the family
13:57.53 Comparing Heuermann home
19:46.55 Blood on the ground
25:08.12 Direction blood takes investigator
29:53.66 Blood with a bubble like appearance
35:02.04 2:28am at least 20 feet away from Apple watch
40:18.20 Foot step making impression on floor
45:30.29 How often is Guthrie home cleaned?
47:41.59 Conclusion Part One
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody balance with Joseph's gotten more. There's sometimes I wonder,
I wonder am I secure enough? And when I say that,
I mean have I provided physical security for my home,
my family? Have I provided security, say, for instance, for
(00:24):
my identity for you know, my future. Security is a
watchword that we use and sometimes we just kind of
throw it around and it's very I don't know, it's
very broad. What does it actually mean? Well, I can't
necessarily go into great detail about the security that has
(00:46):
come along with financial institutions or even homes in the
sense of surveillance and all that. That's not really my
Bailey Wick. But there is one area which I pride
myself on that has to do with security, and that
is crom scenes. What does it mean to secure crom scene?
(01:13):
Because if it's not secure, everything that is of value
can be lost. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
body bags, Brother, Dave Lord, have mercy? Have we been
(01:35):
on a journey?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It has been unique in the way this story is covered.
And I think the reason is twofold and I mentioned it.
I mean in the first days when network broadcasting is
very territorial, also very incestuous and meaning that people working
at the network level on the air do come from
(01:59):
other plays and go other places and in this so
this is one of those rare occasions where the person
Savannah Guthrie is very well thought of in the community
of talent. People that have worked with her on the
air and people off the air all say great things
about her. What that means when her mother went missing,
(02:22):
everyone at the network level had a story to share
about Savannah, a good story about who she is and
how she treats other people. That's why all the borders
were down. You've got Good Morning America on ABC talking
about the Today Show, their chief competitor in that morning
(02:43):
time talking about the network person. You know, this is
a these are no nos that are not done.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Fox and Friends, Yes, and you know, polar opposites here
and yeah, I mean yeah, I got to tell you
it is amazing. Can I add a little bit to this.
I think that they're this is I'm going to a
really dark place here. I think that there is kind
(03:15):
of this sudden hint of situational awareness on the part
of a lot of these folks that are in the
public eye, because I think that your high profile nature
makes people in your close circle adjacent to you. I
(03:35):
think that it has the potential of having them targeted,
and there's an awareness and I've held that. I feel
that on one level because you know, I look at
this and i'm you know, and I just look at
the landscape out there, you know, in p mc County,
and I think out of all the houses on that street,
(03:57):
all the retirees that are there, all of the money
that is allegedly there, the affluence there. Why yeah, And
so I don't know, it's it's really dark, but I
think that, you know, you go back to, you know,
kind of these threads of connection relative to to all
of these folks, and I think that it's it hits
(04:19):
them the reality. It's a as they say, a cold
cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
That's why the case has gotten the coverage it has
because of the people involved. The network anchor of a
morning show is a high profile individual for the network.
As a matter of fact, in Savannah's case, she was
heading to Italy to cover the Winter Olympics for NBC.
So you know, there's a lot going on in this
story that still hasn't been told. But I think that's
(04:46):
why the waterwall coverage it has been three weeks now
as we begin taping this show, and that's a long
time when you look at an eighty four year old
woman being kidnapped in the middle of the night, where
we were told she's got twenty four hours and her
medication is up. She dies, I mean you remember that,
(05:07):
That's what we were told radios right off the top.
So right here from the timeline, let's go back to
January thirty first. Nancy Guthrie vanishes from her home Saturday night,
January thirty first. She went to her daughter Annie and
her husband went to that house, took an uber at
five point thirty in the afternoon, went to do dinner
(05:27):
and game night. She gets home nine forty five. At
nine forty eight, her son in law drops her off
at her home. Boy Nancy would get mad at me, Well,
who's her? Who's him? What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Home?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
All right? Son in law drops Nancy Guthrie off at
her home. Garage door closes at nine point fifty. This
is the assumption that when the garage door shuts, Nancy
is inside the home nine to fifty pm, January thirty first.
(05:59):
At one forty seven am, February first, the doorbell camera disconnects.
We'll talk about the video in a minute. At two
twelve am, camera software detects a person, but no video
exists yet. And then at two twenty eight am, Nancy Guthries'
(06:20):
pacemaker app disconnects from her phone. We have been told
it connects via Bluetooth and has about a twenty foot radius.
That's it. Once she is twenty feet away from her
Apple Watch, the pacemaker cannot and will not connect. So
(06:41):
we're going on the assignment, we being those of us
watching this and broadcasting about it, that at twenty eight am,
Nancy Guthrie's physical body was more than twenty feet away
from her Apple Watch and disconnected and has now reconnected
that we are aware of at this point. The next morning,
(07:02):
Nancy Guthrie again, the reporting was all over the place
on this. But over the last couple of years since COVID,
Nancy has met with some friends of hers on Sunday
mornings to watch the streaming of a church service out
of New York City that Savannah Guthrie attends live and
in person, and her mom would gather with some friends
(07:25):
in different homes. They rotated and they watched the service together.
So Nancy Guthrie and Tucson, Arizona was able to attend
church with her youngest daughter, Savannah while Savannah was in
New York City. Very just loving, very nice, very you know.
And that's why when Nancy Guthrie did not show up
(07:47):
at her friend's home to watch the service like they
did every other Sunday, they tried to They being her friends,
reached out. They tried texting, they tried calling, and could
not get Nancy. They could not find Nancy Guthrie that morning.
That is why the friends called Annie, Hey, can't get
(08:08):
your mom. You know what, do you know where she is?
Annie and Tomaso go to the house some of the
friends and that's when it has discovered that Nancy Guthrie
is not in her home and they call nine one
one at twelve oh three noon. Okay, that is the
basic timeline that we have operating past that timeline. Joe,
(08:32):
you from the very beginning talked about what we would
be looking for. We very broad we broadcasters investigators looking
into this case. And uh, there was what we have
been told what we have seen two different things. The
(08:54):
Pete mccownay Sheriff's Department documented the scene for about eighteen hours,
eighteen to twenty hours, so the scene was turned back
over to the family within twenty four hours of her disappearance.
Of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, the family was allowed back in.
(09:15):
That is when pictures of blood on the front entryway
was photographed by journalists and released. We saw it that way,
That's how we got the pictures of blood. So, Joe,
we know that the sheriff of p mccounty has been
under a lot of scrutiny. Riley. So this is going
(09:38):
on three weeks now. We still do not have a
person of interest or a suspect. We've had a couple
of individuals who have been interrogated, questioned, but no arrest
in this case yet. So if you would, can we
start with what we know about the entryway video, starting
(10:00):
there or wherever you want, because that's the case, that's
the timeline, that's the case. And by the way, Nancy
Guthrie has not been seen since nine forty eight pm
when she walked into her house January thirty first, and
the last indication that we have her within twenty feet
of her Apple watch was at two twenty eight am
February first.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, and then she just kind of, you know, like
a vapor just vanishes at that point in Tom Yeah,
I was Okay, I got to tell you, going back
to the blood itself, the blood deposition there that's in
the doorway. First off, I was as an investigator, I
(10:44):
was amazed. I was looking at.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It, right, Okay, As a media personality, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So as an old investigator, yeah, and
now in the media looking at it and seeing it,
I'm thinking, how am I seeing this? Because again going
back to my opening statements about security, no one should
(11:13):
be seeing this other than the principles involved in this.
It goes back to you know, the my my idea
about the investigative bubble. There should be very very people
and very very few people inside. There's not enough oxygen
in the space, if you will, And it's precious and
everything contained within that bubble is precious. Now, I can
(11:38):
tell you took the photo and I consider him to
be a friend, and it's Briannitten and Brian Inton was
doing his job as a journalist. You take the tape down,
and I tell my students this all the time, but
if you take that tape down, it's open season at
that point in time, you know everything.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Taking the tape down. What tape are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Well, well, I'm talking about the kind of mystical boundary
that is created by this, Yeah, by this three four
inch wide bit of yellow tape that says do not cross,
do not cross, or it says crime scene on it,
and that creates a boundary that you're not supposed to
(12:21):
go past. And once it comes down, all bets are
off at that point in time, because you're saying to
the public, Okay, well our work here is done, you know,
and then if people want to walk up to the house,
they can. And I'm thinking, you know, and listen, please
(12:41):
do not misconstruy what I'm saying. But taking the long
view of this, if you know who you're dealing with here,
as far as the mother of arguably one of the
most high profile media people in the Okay, people are
(13:04):
going to come to the house. We've seen that. All
you gotta do is I mean, just look at the
case of Brian Laundry. Do you remember everybody just parked
out on the street day in and day out. Yes,
you know, and that's Brian Laundry, dude. I mean, in
his family, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I was so proud of the people that did that
that they actually stood in front of that his house's parents' house.
Because at the time we didn't know where Gabby Petito was.
We just knew that that that he had actually that
Brian Laundry left down with that Gabby in a van
she bought, and then he returned in the van owned
by Gabby, but no Gabby. And they would they, being
(13:43):
the entire Laundry family, would not tell us, well, you
left with her, where is she? There is no reasonable explanation,
So tell us something.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
And there wait, let me, I got to tell you something.
Let me correct you on something real quick. Here data,
it's okay to say scumback. I saw that you were
about to say it. It's okay, you can use it.
You can use a term here on body bags.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
That's the whole family, you know, that whole family. Yeah,
how do you anyway? So the people that were standing
outside the home yelling at him, I was like, man,
I want to be one of them, you know, right?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, I agree? And again it you know, it attracts,
you know, like flies at a barbecue. You know, people
are going to show up just out of curiosity. You know,
I've been to Rex Huerman's house and there are signs
up everywhere at that location in Long Island. Yeah, because
you got gawkers that come by all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So like if people that live next door to that
house that was falling apart, and they would be like, hey,
stay off my yard or his house, you are there.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, you know what, they're so sick of it because
it's a very open space and these other houses are beautiful,
you know, and I'm standing there and and I'm looking
at this place and I'm thinking, oh my lord, a
dump and they have had to put up signs there
so people. That's evidence, I think of of our theme
(15:09):
here that that people are going to show up. And
with Nancy Guffrey, the the fact that this scene was
released so quickly. So going back to going back to
the blood.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
You said Brian Innton took that picture.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, he did. He walked up with his camera. Arguably,
I don't know. Arguably, Brian is probably the hardest working
person I know in media. I don't come across anybody.
This man travels more than anybody I know, and he
is always on air, I mean always, So anytime I'm
starting to feel sorry, for myself. All I got to
(15:51):
do is thing about Brian, you know, you know, but
he got the blunt.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
He got the picture of blood. Mike have been you
know when you said, we don't normally get that, and
I'm like, you know what I get in looking at
these Usually we're talking about seeing this way after the fact,
you know, after months, years, sometimes that's when we get
these types of pictures, but never in the investigation.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, and I'm I look at it. And there's a
term that's a provenance, you know, when you think about
provenance as it applies to antique, antiques, fine art, you know,
where you're talking about something of value where you're trying
to measure it and you're trying to understand is it
(16:40):
is it intact? Okay? And I love that term because
it kind of encapsulates the what we talk about relative
to evidence in forensic science. So here let me throw
this at you. Yeah, the fact that Brian walked up
there means that other people could have walked up there.
And let's just say that at sometime in the future
(17:04):
someone is hooked up on charges. In regards to missus Guthrie, Well,
if that blood at the front stoop right, there plays
in to this scenario. This is going to be one
of the first things that is attacked by by a
(17:27):
defense attorney because it was not secured on any level.
They released the scene at this point, and you know,
and it doesn't matter that when you had to tape
up that you sampled it, you uh sent it off
(17:50):
for testing, you know, all these sorts of things, which
is fine and good, but the fact that it's an
ongoing investigation and you fail to continue to secure this
area and it's not just the security of that Dave.
When when Brian took that image, you remember that this
person who appears on the camera went over and grabbed weeds, right,
(18:15):
you're talking about the surveillance video that we surveillance radio
and walks up and you know, holds it over the
lens and drops it. David, Oh my gosh, those weren't collected.
It's not like, okay, So if you look at the blood,
you think, okay, the blood could be sampled, you can
(18:35):
photograph it, you can do all of the testing. You
can even there's some testing, presumptive testing that we do
it scenes to determine if in fact this is blood,
if it's human versus animal, blood. We can do that stuff,
but the more granular stuff has to be done to lab. However,
those weeds are left there. You can see them captured
(18:56):
in that image. Okay, Now, I've been on scenes where
we've collected foliage before. I mean, it just happens. You know,
there's stuff because you don't know if it's if you
were to take those leaves, okay, of those little weaves
and flip them over, you don't know what's on the
underside of them. There could be blood deposition under there,
(19:19):
there could be contact trace. But when I'm looking at
this one clip, I see weeds there, and I'm thinking, so,
this is not collected, but yet it's immediately adjacent to
a blood deposition pattern that's there. It's just it boggles
the mind, just simply based in I'm only talking about
(19:43):
you know, right now, you and I have been talking
for about twenty two minutes. I'm I haven't even gotten
to everything else. It's just this one little focused area
where you can see, you know, the lug nuts on
the wheel are loose at this point. To use that
in metaphor, I guess the wheels are wobbling, all right,
(20:07):
because she's still missing out there. If I've got blood,
I'm thinking in my mind injury. If I'm thinking injury
and I know that she's elderly, I'm thinking dark thoughts
at this point in time. So it's not just you're
dealing with, say a missing person or even a kidnapping,
because I don't know that that early on they knew
(20:29):
that it was necessarily a kidnapping, or you know that
this these ransom things had popped up at that point
in time. You know, all we know now is that
we've got a missing elderly lady and she's apparently because
they have gone back and confirmed that is her blood.
And people ought not bleed without some kind of trauma,
(20:54):
and I think it's trauma related blood. And I can
go into that and tell you what I think. But
yet it's it's released, and I'm not in any way.
I'm not hammering the investigators that are on the ground.
(21:15):
This is a management issue. You know, when it comes
down to it.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Who does make that call to you? Who makes the
call when you have a scene and you've got a
crime scene based on the evidence you're seeing as an investigator,
who makes the decision. I know that if you and
I were the first to arrive. We would go ahead
and put up some tape, keep gawker, keep everybody back,
you know, from this area. But who actually makes that
determination that we are going to set the perimeter right here,
(21:44):
right now? And then who makes the decision to keep
it up and have a stay up? Because I don't
think this has ever come into play before for us
in terms of a crime scene. And I know we
did run into some odd things with Coburger and the
crime scene there, but we're fucking this is a case
where we have an a four year old woman who's missing.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, this is this is I'll put you this way.
I would I would teach this stuff at Jack State
for my sophomore, for my freshman and sophomore kids, all
right to eighteen year olds and nineteen year olds. Now,
whether or not they adhere to it, but who makes
the ultimate decision. Well, in the words of Harry S. Truman,
(22:30):
our former president, the buck stops here, you know, Dave,
the buck does stop here, and that you know, the
(22:52):
people that are working the scene, particularly a scene like
this at people painted Pima County, I think, is this
kind of rural backwater? It's not. I mean, it's not
you're in the Tucson area down there. They have crimes,
they have they they have to work cases that are
(23:16):
technically let's see, how can I put it? It requires
a technician to be on their toes, all right, because
they do have a certain volume and tempo that they
work at. So whoever's in charge of it was in
fact appointed by an elected sheriff, all right, who is
(23:38):
a politician, all right, And that's ultimately who's making the
decisions here. That's why you know, I alluded to Harry
Truman about taking responsibility for it, and you know, for
all of his comments, I have yet to hear a
(23:58):
comment about personal responsibility. You know, at best, maybe he has,
but so much stuff has been said, or he has
said so many things that is I don't know. It's
it's troubling because I don't know what else has been missed.
And when I think about the blood at the door,
(24:20):
one of the things I'm I'm concerned with is directionality
of the blood as far as does it actually lead somewhere.
And to this point, we don't have a lot of
data relative to that. Because when you you see blood
(24:43):
deposition at a threshold, you're thinking, okay, this could go
obviously one of two ways. It can lead away from
the house or it can go back into the house.
And I think that that's one of the one of
the things you have to consider here. What was what
was the direction that the blood would take you in
(25:08):
You're thinking about is there deposition leading away from the door,
maybe to the driveway or to the roadway where a
car may have been parked and she could be spirited
away in there. Or was this blood deposition indicative of
something that happened at the doorway, like if she opened
(25:29):
that door, was she struck in the face at that
immediate time? And I got to tell you this looking
at this, and also there's been some comment and I'd
like to know kind of dig into this a wee bit.
With that blood deposition, You've got these kind of large
(25:49):
satellite blood drops, and that's gravitational impact blood, like it's
free falling through the air, like you have a bloody nose,
you've got a busted lip. But contained in between the
big droplets, you've got these really tiny, almost histamin like
(26:11):
blood deposition, and that is indicative of expiated blood. And
that's somebody that is, you know, blowing out like that
as opposed to aspirated blood where you're you know, like
this and it's going back down your throat, so you've
got blood that is there. So that's that's a dynamic
(26:33):
blood deposition. Was she picked up and just kind of
lifted off the ground and either taken into the house
or taken down the driveway? Because you know, I think
some people are wondering, are there is there any indication
that you might have bloody footprints? And how would a
(26:57):
perpetrate her at the door avoid stepping in blood and
leaving a bloody footprint. Well, we don't know how much
how much she has bled, you know, is that the
only focal area of blood deposition that they have? And
then how much care was taken by whoever these perpetrators
(27:20):
are in this case that have removed her from her family.
I mean, my kids, my wife has had a bloody
nose and I've borne witness to it. I've you know,
and i haven't stepped in their blood. I'm aware of it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Joe, Could you determine how long that blood had been
in that place, because what if that blood came from
Nancy Guthrie a week before, you know, she just had
a little slip and fall, bumped her head and knogging
or whatever, and some blade came out, and could you
tell if it was a week or two old as opposed.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
To I think, yeah, that's an excellent question, Dave, Thanks
for asking that. I think that with dried blood in particular.
And keep in mind also as you well know that
area out there, it's like being in a convection of
and in the summer certainly, but you have to admit
very low humidity. So that's that's that's going to impact
(28:23):
the progression of changes in blood. Once it's left the body,
it's deposited on an area, it actually speeds up in
that environment. Here's why the absence of moisture in the
air is going to promote this blood to flake. You'll
see it. And if any of you guys at home
(28:44):
have ever you know you've been clean up around your bathroom.
Generally happens in bathroom. You'll find a spot of blood.
You'll first off, you'll look at it and you'll think
what is that and you say, oh, oh, my lord,
that's blood because it turns darker. Now you everybody's aware
that you know, when you bleed, it's kind of a
bright red color. It's got to I don't know, it
(29:07):
appears to almost have life to it, if you will.
That's kind of a ridiculous statement, but you'll see it there,
and it's kind of brilliantly red when you look at
that deposition. And again, I am basing this solely upon
this image that's coming from Briannton, okay, because this is
not like a high quality crime scene photo all right,
(29:30):
that's going to be very specific with scale and lighting
and all this kind of thing. That blood just does
not marry up with being like weeks old. Boden I
think even made a comment and this is kind of interesting.
This blood to him had the appearance of having been
(29:51):
aer rated, and that means that it's kind of there's
this when blood is coming out of a highly oxygenated
area and it's being deposited onto a surface, it'll almost
have this kind of clear bubble like appearance to it.
Whereas and it makes sense, let's say you get a
cut on your forearm, all right, or a cut on
(30:14):
your hand in your dripping blood, that blood does not
look like the same kind of blood comes out of
the nasal faarnecks area, okay, because it's oxygen rich, you're
kind of blowing it out. It's kind of like creating bubbles,
you know, that sort of thing. It's not like it's
it's not the same. It's like the kind of viscous
blood that you get if you have a cut in
(30:35):
it's free falling. So again, directionality, the nature of the deposition.
What does it tell us? I think about movement of
Missus Guthrie And we can say that it is Missus
Guthrie because they have in fact, we know now that
they've tested it and they've said that it's hers. So
(30:56):
what can you take away from that? And you know,
the blood reveals The blood reveals a lot for us,
I think, because therein it encapsulates all kinds of evidentiary
It has all manner of evidentiary value. You know, we
(31:17):
can look at the dynamics of the flow, the dynamics
of the deposition. We can determine what type of blood
it is. We can rule out animals, we can rule
out other people, we can say that it is this
literally blood typing. And then you know, you've got the
big consideration with DNA. And there's a lot of kind
(31:40):
of backchatter going on right now as you and I
are chatting Dave about commingling of DNA, and this is
going to be a big issue. I don't think that
it necessarily has so much to do with the blood here,
but there's there's so much. There are so many dynamics
working with this case as far as molecular evidence goes,
(32:03):
that trying to get this thing unspooled, if you will,
is going to be uh uh, it's going to be
the task of a titan. You're You're really gonna have
to people have to have people that are on point
with this with every every step of the way. That's why,
(32:24):
going back to earlier comments about seeing security, Dave, it
is those little things in the end that that tear
us to pieces. It's uh, it's the little foxes that
spoiled the mind.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
M Dave.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
There has been a number that has been floated, and
I really need you to help me get my mind
around there and how we kind of arrived on this number.
It is the idea that whoever entered into Missus Guthrie's
house may have been in there for I don't know
(33:21):
their ballparking a like at forty minutes this sort of thing.
Can you kind of explain the genesis of this. You're
so great at timelines, which I am not. It's one
of my big weaknesses. But it doesn't have to be specific.
But could you kind of frame that out for me,
because that's a very specific number, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think it's a I think it's a bad number.
Actually really yeah, Okay, there, the number is forty one
minutes that we allegedly supposedly have at least one kidnapper
inside the house for forty one minutes. That number is
not pulled out of thin air. It is based on
(34:02):
the one forty seven am when the doorbell camera disconnects.
The next camera out front that happened at one forty
seven am. The next one we have the next time
is two twenty eight am, when Nancy Guthrie her pacemaker
(34:23):
is no longer connecting to the Apple Watch. So that's
where the forty one minutes come from one forty seven
am to two twenty eight am. And I'm looking at
it and saying, Okay, I understand the forty one minutes, Joe,
But I think what it really does is it doesn't
(34:46):
It gets us jammed into a time frame here, but
we don't know that Nancy Guthrie was removed from the
house at two twenty eight am. We only know that
she was twenty five feet away from her Apple Watch
at the time. We do know the Apple Watch was
(35:06):
left behind in the home, Okay, we do know that
it was right there where it always was, next to
her bed. But the only thing we know is that
at two twenty eight am, she was farther than twenty
feet away and did not connect back. That's what we know.
So to think that there was forty one minutes, dude,
(35:28):
could have been hours. We don't know, And at this
point we know what we don't know is as important
as what we do know. So saying that there was
at least forty one minutes, I'll go with that, But
I don't think there's any indication you know, that she
(35:50):
left the house at two twenty eight am. I am
concerned about a number of things that I wanted to
ask you about, though, Joe. Yeah, and again we're back
to this the crime scene which was not shut down.
In a lot of times when you and I Aren
Will used Nancy Show as a prime example. On crime
stories with Nancy Grace, we oftentimes approach a subject or
(36:13):
a discussion, well, the defense will tear this up for
these reasons, and we're not doing that. We're trying to
figure out where is Nancy Guthrie and how are we
going to find her and why are we not getting
this information? And sometimes that does get into the discussion,
but there's always well, my gosh, Joe, common sense dictates
(36:36):
that this scene, this crime scene was called a crime
scene early they being investigators, were there for twenty hours
and then they gave it back to the family. There
was no reason to do that because no family was
staying there. We had Savannah Guthrie came home, came to town,
but she stayed at Annie's house for the first several days.
(36:58):
The home was empty. There was nobody at Nancy Guthrie's home.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
We know that police had they didn't have any crime
tape up. We don't even know if they were watching
it at that point. So anything could have happened in
that house that would change what possibly happened to Nancy Guthrie.
So just dealing with what we actually know, let's say
there's let's use forty minutes, okay, Joe, let's stay on that.
(37:24):
In forty minutes time, you've got at least two people
up and around that house, Nancy Guthrie and her kidnapper.
We know that because Nancy's no longer here and she
didn't leave on her own. We have a clumsy, bungling
idiot at the front door who's trying to cover up
the lens with weeds. Still boggles my mind. That you
would go to the trouble to cover yourself with multiple
(37:47):
you know, gloves on your hands and face mask and
everything else, and somehow you didn't think about, I need
to cover the lens, you know, pulling weeds to do that.
It's crazy. But once that individual is in the house, Joe,
every step they take, every step they take is going
to leave a mark. And I'm assuming, probably wrongly, but
(38:11):
I know that my feet carry dirt. You know, my
shoes carry dirt. They have little markings on the inside
that covers dirt and everything else I've stepped in. We've
got this individual walking up the driveway and assuming once
he or she takes the camera off the mount goes
into the house. We don't know if there was you know,
(38:33):
we don't know what transpired to get in the house.
We haven't seen that yet. But isn't that individual going
to leave at least footprints behind in that home from
entering in that doorway right there.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, glad you asked that, because most people, I think,
when you think of footprints, people always think, okay, they
walk through blood, they walk through mud. And for my friends,
my colleagues at work up nor you know, usually footprints
in the snow, which always is amazing to me. How
they lift prints out of the snow. That's an entirely
(39:09):
different conversation. But and they can do it, and they're
good at it. But here's here's what you don't think.
For those of you that have never been out west
and particularly in this environment, uh, if you don't live
in the Southwest, the one thing it is is dusty. Okay.
(39:31):
That's one thing that old Western movies get right about
about the uh you know that environment out there where
you see swirls of dust that are kind of you know, uh,
vortexing across the camera. You know, it's the wind blows
and that sort of thing there is that there is
issues with dust a lot of sand, right, so that
(39:54):
that transfers to the soles of your feet. Just because
it transfers to the soles of your feet, all right,
doesn't mean that when somebody steps on the ground and
walks away. You know, let's just say for you, anybody
out there, if you think about your heel contacting the
ground and you kind of a normal step, now you
can be a toe walker. But let's just say a
(40:16):
regular person heel striker, and they roll their foot across
the surface of the ground and then finish on the
tip of their toe. All right, there is going to
be a very specific uh uh print that has been
left behind. And if you have enough dust on the
sole of your shoe, it will replicate. It's like a
(40:41):
negative image of your of the soles of your feet,
all right. And so if you're wearing something has tread
patterns and the one the one person there's there's a
capture of an image. And I got to tell you
that the shoes that there that this visual where I
can visualize them, where I can see them, they look
(41:03):
like athletic shoes. So if they're athletic shoes, that means
that they're going to have a specific tread pattern. Okay, Well,
what we would do in that case is do an
electrostatic lift. And so if we suspect like an area
around a door in particular, let's say just inside the doorway.
(41:26):
If you're coming in through a garage and you're entering
in through the threshold, coming onto like a ceramic tile
surface or hardwood surface, there is a film that we
lay down and it's generally like my lare and it's
got it's attached to a device that generates an electrostatic
(41:49):
charge and it's it works based on magnetism. So when
that sheet is placed over that specific area, Dave, and
that charge is applied to it, it grabs that dust
in in the shape or what is left behind. I'm
trying to frame this so everybody wh understands the tread
(42:11):
pattern that's left behind and you carefully lift it up
and that thing is attached to that sheet. So you
don't just to have you don't simply have to have
say like trace contact from blood where it's going to,
you know, enter on. Say you transfer from the soles
of your shoes onto the receiving underlying surface. It can
(42:36):
be dust that this is that this you know, takes
place in and those things are easily eradicated. Now you
run into a problem obviously, because think about the dynamics
of of of missus Guthrie's home. Okay, when her kids
(42:56):
show up, you know, when they're first you know, alerted
nation show up. Well, we're talking about mama, right, Well,
you're frantically looking for moment, you're not thinking about where
you're stepping, all right, So any footprints are not going
to look like her. Mama's footprints. The sun in law's
(43:18):
footprints are certainly not going to look like mama's footprints.
And I doubt they took their shoes off before they
came to the house, particularly if they're in a frenzy.
You know, some people have a thing about shoes in
the house. You know, I got to take shoes off
the door, that sort of thing. But if you're looking
for mama she's missing, you're not thinking I'm going to
set my shoes aside. Well, they will have specific patterns
that they may have tracked in. Then you're going to
(43:39):
have first responders that come out there, the PD for instance,
They're going to track through there. So it's a matter
of collecting as many footprint samples as you can with
this environment and then beginning to eliminate kind of like
DNA wink wink, no, no, you know, what is a
(44:00):
fible and what's not. You know, they they might go
back to I don't know, they might go back to
the daughter and the sudden law say, hey, what kind
of shoes were you wearing when you walked in the house?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And are these the same kind of shoes that you
are how often do you wear them? Those sorts of things?
And then you've got you know, your cops. Well they
might be wearing they might have standard issue boots that
they wear, all right, and they really stand out. I
wore a very specific type I always wore boots. And
I'm not going to say the manufacturer because they're not
(44:35):
paying any damn money, but there were very specific boots
that I would wear that are commonly used by first
responders and law enforcement. And that soul pattern is distinctive. Okay, Well,
if you bring somebody in that's wearing, say, workout clothing
(44:56):
or you know, track shoes or you know, what are
athletic shoes? How do these fit into this environment? You
know where did they come from? And here's kind of
even a more granular question, when were the last time
her floors were cleaned? Now that seems kind of passe,
(45:18):
but let's just say that missus gut Thrie liked clean house. Okay, well,
does she you know, kind of nominally do it herself,
because I know that she has trouble kind of ambulating,
but some people can't get past that. You know, if
you've been cleaning your house for years and years, it's
something you kind of still like to do. Or does
she have housekeeper that comes in on a regular basis.
If she does have a housekeeper that comes in on
a regular basis, how what does regular basis mean? Were
(45:42):
the floors cleaned the day before, three days before or
have they never been cleaned? I don't have an answer
to that question. So just the tracking, just the tracking
of any kind of footprints that are going through this
house are is significant. Now if you've got blood deposition
that's being transferred by feet, okay, that puts you onto
(46:06):
a whole other level here, because now you can enter
into things like blue star and luminol, where you can
you know, get the stuff to luminous and you can
actually follow a pattern at one of the creepiest things
I think I've ever seen. To me, it always it
always had a creep factor to me. Uh, when I
was at a scene and they were using luminescence and
(46:29):
you can see, you know, somebody's tracked through blood and
you can actually see the direction they're they're walking. It's
it's different than seeing bloody footprints. To me, there's something
about that luminescence that's that's really you know, since a
chill up my spine for whatever reason, you never know,
you know, you you walk through a world of that
(46:50):
seems like peace, a place that is probably held a
lot of joy over the years, where she entertained her family,
her grandbabies coming in and out, meals and if you
(47:11):
could look back through time and see it's really tragic
because now she's missing. That anchor that held this family
together is gone, like we said earlier, like a vapor
has disappeared. This is going to continue. This is only
(47:35):
part one. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.
Quody balance with Joseph's gotten more. There's sometimes I wonder,
I wonder am I secure enough? And when I say that,
I mean have I provided physical security for my home,
my family? Have I provided security, say, for instance, for
(00:24):
my identity for you know, my future. Security is a
watchword that we use and sometimes we just kind of
throw it around and it's very I don't know, it's
very broad. What does it actually mean? Well, I can't
necessarily go into great detail about the security that has
(00:46):
come along with financial institutions or even homes in the
sense of surveillance and all that. That's not really my
Bailey Wick. But there is one area which I pride
myself on that has to do with security, and that
is crom scenes. What does it mean to secure crom scene?
(01:13):
Because if it's not secure, everything that is of value
can be lost. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is
body bags, Brother, Dave Lord, have mercy? Have we been
(01:35):
on a journey?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
It has been unique in the way this story is covered.
And I think the reason is twofold and I mentioned it.
I mean in the first days when network broadcasting is
very territorial, also very incestuous and meaning that people working
at the network level on the air do come from
(01:59):
other plays and go other places and in this so
this is one of those rare occasions where the person
Savannah Guthrie is very well thought of in the community
of talent. People that have worked with her on the
air and people off the air all say great things
about her. What that means when her mother went missing,
(02:22):
everyone at the network level had a story to share
about Savannah, a good story about who she is and
how she treats other people. That's why all the borders
were down. You've got Good Morning America on ABC talking
about the Today Show, their chief competitor in that morning
(02:43):
time talking about the network person. You know, this is
a these are no nos that are not done.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Fox and Friends, Yes, and you know, polar opposites here
and yeah, I mean yeah, I got to tell you
it is amazing. Can I add a little bit to this.
I think that they're this is I'm going to a
really dark place here. I think that there is kind
(03:15):
of this sudden hint of situational awareness on the part
of a lot of these folks that are in the
public eye, because I think that your high profile nature
makes people in your close circle adjacent to you. I
(03:35):
think that it has the potential of having them targeted,
and there's an awareness and I've held that. I feel
that on one level because you know, I look at
this and i'm you know, and I just look at
the landscape out there, you know, in p mc County,
and I think out of all the houses on that street,
(03:57):
all the retirees that are there, all of the money
that is allegedly there, the affluence there. Why yeah, And
so I don't know, it's it's really dark, but I
think that, you know, you go back to, you know,
kind of these threads of connection relative to to all
of these folks, and I think that it's it hits
(04:19):
them the reality. It's a as they say, a cold
cup of coffee.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
That's why the case has gotten the coverage it has
because of the people involved. The network anchor of a
morning show is a high profile individual for the network.
As a matter of fact, in Savannah's case, she was
heading to Italy to cover the Winter Olympics for NBC.
So you know, there's a lot going on in this
story that still hasn't been told. But I think that's
(04:46):
why the waterwall coverage it has been three weeks now
as we begin taping this show, and that's a long
time when you look at an eighty four year old
woman being kidnapped in the middle of the night, where
we were told she's got twenty four hours and her
medication is up. She dies, I mean you remember that,
(05:07):
That's what we were told radios right off the top.
So right here from the timeline, let's go back to
January thirty first. Nancy Guthrie vanishes from her home Saturday night,
January thirty first. She went to her daughter Annie and
her husband went to that house, took an uber at
five point thirty in the afternoon, went to do dinner
(05:27):
and game night. She gets home nine forty five. At
nine forty eight, her son in law drops her off
at her home. Boy Nancy would get mad at me, Well,
who's her? Who's him? What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Home?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
All right? Son in law drops Nancy Guthrie off at
her home. Garage door closes at nine point fifty. This
is the assumption that when the garage door shuts, Nancy
is inside the home nine to fifty pm, January thirty first.
(05:59):
At one forty seven am, February first, the doorbell camera disconnects.
We'll talk about the video in a minute. At two
twelve am, camera software detects a person, but no video
exists yet. And then at two twenty eight am, Nancy Guthries'
(06:20):
pacemaker app disconnects from her phone. We have been told
it connects via Bluetooth and has about a twenty foot radius.
That's it. Once she is twenty feet away from her
Apple Watch, the pacemaker cannot and will not connect. So
(06:41):
we're going on the assignment, we being those of us
watching this and broadcasting about it, that at twenty eight am,
Nancy Guthrie's physical body was more than twenty feet away
from her Apple Watch and disconnected and has now reconnected
that we are aware of at this point. The next morning,
(07:02):
Nancy Guthrie again, the reporting was all over the place
on this. But over the last couple of years since COVID,
Nancy has met with some friends of hers on Sunday
mornings to watch the streaming of a church service out
of New York City that Savannah Guthrie attends live and
in person, and her mom would gather with some friends
(07:25):
in different homes. They rotated and they watched the service together.
So Nancy Guthrie and Tucson, Arizona was able to attend
church with her youngest daughter, Savannah while Savannah was in
New York City. Very just loving, very nice, very you know.
And that's why when Nancy Guthrie did not show up
(07:47):
at her friend's home to watch the service like they
did every other Sunday, they tried to They being her friends,
reached out. They tried texting, they tried calling, and could
not get Nancy. They could not find Nancy Guthrie that morning.
That is why the friends called Annie, Hey, can't get
(08:08):
your mom. You know what, do you know where she is?
Annie and Tomaso go to the house some of the
friends and that's when it has discovered that Nancy Guthrie
is not in her home and they call nine one
one at twelve oh three noon. Okay, that is the
basic timeline that we have operating past that timeline. Joe,
(08:32):
you from the very beginning talked about what we would
be looking for. We very broad we broadcasters investigators looking
into this case. And uh, there was what we have
been told what we have seen two different things. The
(08:54):
Pete mccownay Sheriff's Department documented the scene for about eighteen hours,
eighteen to twenty hours, so the scene was turned back
over to the family within twenty four hours of her disappearance.
Of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, the family was allowed back in.
(09:15):
That is when pictures of blood on the front entryway
was photographed by journalists and released. We saw it that way,
That's how we got the pictures of blood. So, Joe,
we know that the sheriff of p mccounty has been
under a lot of scrutiny. Riley. So this is going
(09:38):
on three weeks now. We still do not have a
person of interest or a suspect. We've had a couple
of individuals who have been interrogated, questioned, but no arrest
in this case yet. So if you would, can we
start with what we know about the entryway video, starting
(10:00):
there or wherever you want, because that's the case, that's
the timeline, that's the case. And by the way, Nancy
Guthrie has not been seen since nine forty eight pm
when she walked into her house January thirty first, and
the last indication that we have her within twenty feet
of her Apple watch was at two twenty eight am
February first.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Yeah, and then she just kind of, you know, like
a vapor just vanishes at that point in Tom Yeah,
I was Okay, I got to tell you, going back
to the blood itself, the blood deposition there that's in
the doorway. First off, I was as an investigator, I
(10:44):
was amazed. I was looking at.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
It, right, Okay, As a media personality, I mean.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So as an old investigator, yeah, and
now in the media looking at it and seeing it,
I'm thinking, how am I seeing this? Because again going
back to my opening statements about security, no one should
(11:13):
be seeing this other than the principles involved in this.
It goes back to you know, the my my idea
about the investigative bubble. There should be very very people
and very very few people inside. There's not enough oxygen
in the space, if you will, And it's precious and
everything contained within that bubble is precious. Now, I can
(11:38):
tell you took the photo and I consider him to
be a friend, and it's Briannitten and Brian Inton was
doing his job as a journalist. You take the tape down,
and I tell my students this all the time, but
if you take that tape down, it's open season at
that point in time, you know everything.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Taking the tape down. What tape are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Well, well, I'm talking about the kind of mystical boundary
that is created by this, Yeah, by this three four
inch wide bit of yellow tape that says do not cross,
do not cross, or it says crime scene on it,
and that creates a boundary that you're not supposed to
(12:21):
go past. And once it comes down, all bets are
off at that point in time, because you're saying to
the public, Okay, well our work here is done, you know,
and then if people want to walk up to the house,
they can. And I'm thinking, you know, and listen, please
(12:41):
do not misconstruy what I'm saying. But taking the long
view of this, if you know who you're dealing with here,
as far as the mother of arguably one of the
most high profile media people in the Okay, people are
(13:04):
going to come to the house. We've seen that. All
you gotta do is I mean, just look at the
case of Brian Laundry. Do you remember everybody just parked
out on the street day in and day out. Yes,
you know, and that's Brian Laundry, dude. I mean, in
his family, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I was so proud of the people that did that
that they actually stood in front of that his house's parents' house.
Because at the time we didn't know where Gabby Petito was.
We just knew that that that he had actually that
Brian Laundry left down with that Gabby in a van
she bought, and then he returned in the van owned
by Gabby, but no Gabby. And they would they, being
(13:43):
the entire Laundry family, would not tell us, well, you
left with her, where is she? There is no reasonable explanation,
So tell us something.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
And there wait, let me, I got to tell you something.
Let me correct you on something real quick. Here data,
it's okay to say scumback. I saw that you were
about to say it. It's okay, you can use it.
You can use a term here on body bags.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
That's the whole family, you know, that whole family. Yeah,
how do you anyway? So the people that were standing
outside the home yelling at him, I was like, man,
I want to be one of them, you know, right?
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Yeah, I agree? And again it you know, it attracts,
you know, like flies at a barbecue. You know, people
are going to show up just out of curiosity. You know,
I've been to Rex Huerman's house and there are signs
up everywhere at that location in Long Island. Yeah, because
you got gawkers that come by all the time.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
So like if people that live next door to that
house that was falling apart, and they would be like, hey,
stay off my yard or his house, you are there.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Well, you know what, they're so sick of it because
it's a very open space and these other houses are beautiful,
you know, and I'm standing there and and I'm looking
at this place and I'm thinking, oh my lord, a
dump and they have had to put up signs there
so people. That's evidence, I think of of our theme
(15:09):
here that that people are going to show up. And
with Nancy Guffrey, the the fact that this scene was
released so quickly. So going back to going back to
the blood.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
You said Brian Innton took that picture.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yeah, he did. He walked up with his camera. Arguably,
I don't know. Arguably, Brian is probably the hardest working
person I know in media. I don't come across anybody.
This man travels more than anybody I know, and he
is always on air, I mean always, So anytime I'm
starting to feel sorry, for myself. All I got to
(15:51):
do is thing about Brian, you know, you know, but
he got the blunt.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
He got the picture of blood. Mike have been you
know when you said, we don't normally get that, and
I'm like, you know what I get in looking at
these Usually we're talking about seeing this way after the fact,
you know, after months, years, sometimes that's when we get
these types of pictures, but never in the investigation.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, and I'm I look at it. And there's a
term that's a provenance, you know, when you think about
provenance as it applies to antique, antiques, fine art, you know,
where you're talking about something of value where you're trying
to measure it and you're trying to understand is it
(16:40):
is it intact? Okay? And I love that term because
it kind of encapsulates the what we talk about relative
to evidence in forensic science. So here let me throw
this at you. Yeah, the fact that Brian walked up
there means that other people could have walked up there.
And let's just say that at sometime in the future
(17:04):
someone is hooked up on charges. In regards to missus Guthrie, Well,
if that blood at the front stoop right, there plays
in to this scenario. This is going to be one
of the first things that is attacked by by a
(17:27):
defense attorney because it was not secured on any level.
They released the scene at this point, and you know,
and it doesn't matter that when you had to tape
up that you sampled it, you uh sent it off
(17:50):
for testing, you know, all these sorts of things, which
is fine and good, but the fact that it's an
ongoing investigation and you fail to continue to secure this
area and it's not just the security of that Dave.
When when Brian took that image, you remember that this
person who appears on the camera went over and grabbed weeds, right,
(18:15):
you're talking about the surveillance video that we surveillance radio
and walks up and you know, holds it over the
lens and drops it. David, Oh my gosh, those weren't collected.
It's not like, okay, So if you look at the blood,
you think, okay, the blood could be sampled, you can
(18:35):
photograph it, you can do all of the testing. You
can even there's some testing, presumptive testing that we do
it scenes to determine if in fact this is blood,
if it's human versus animal, blood. We can do that stuff,
but the more granular stuff has to be done to lab. However,
those weeds are left there. You can see them captured
(18:56):
in that image. Okay, Now, I've been on scenes where
we've collected foliage before. I mean, it just happens. You know,
there's stuff because you don't know if it's if you
were to take those leaves, okay, of those little weaves
and flip them over, you don't know what's on the
underside of them. There could be blood deposition under there,
(19:19):
there could be contact trace. But when I'm looking at
this one clip, I see weeds there, and I'm thinking, so,
this is not collected, but yet it's immediately adjacent to
a blood deposition pattern that's there. It's just it boggles
the mind, just simply based in I'm only talking about
(19:43):
you know, right now, you and I have been talking
for about twenty two minutes. I'm I haven't even gotten
to everything else. It's just this one little focused area
where you can see, you know, the lug nuts on
the wheel are loose at this point. To use that
in metaphor, I guess the wheels are wobbling, all right,
(20:07):
because she's still missing out there. If I've got blood,
I'm thinking in my mind injury. If I'm thinking injury
and I know that she's elderly, I'm thinking dark thoughts
at this point in time. So it's not just you're
dealing with, say a missing person or even a kidnapping,
because I don't know that that early on they knew
(20:29):
that it was necessarily a kidnapping, or you know that
this these ransom things had popped up at that point
in time. You know, all we know now is that
we've got a missing elderly lady and she's apparently because
they have gone back and confirmed that is her blood.
And people ought not bleed without some kind of trauma,
(20:54):
and I think it's trauma related blood. And I can
go into that and tell you what I think. But
yet it's it's released, and I'm not in any way.
I'm not hammering the investigators that are on the ground.
(21:15):
This is a management issue. You know, when it comes
down to it.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Who does make that call to you? Who makes the
call when you have a scene and you've got a
crime scene based on the evidence you're seeing as an investigator,
who makes the decision. I know that if you and
I were the first to arrive. We would go ahead
and put up some tape, keep gawker, keep everybody back,
you know, from this area. But who actually makes that
determination that we are going to set the perimeter right here,
(21:44):
right now? And then who makes the decision to keep
it up and have a stay up? Because I don't
think this has ever come into play before for us
in terms of a crime scene. And I know we
did run into some odd things with Coburger and the
crime scene there, but we're fucking this is a case
where we have an a four year old woman who's missing.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Yeah, this is this is I'll put you this way.
I would I would teach this stuff at Jack State
for my sophomore, for my freshman and sophomore kids, all
right to eighteen year olds and nineteen year olds. Now,
whether or not they adhere to it, but who makes
the ultimate decision. Well, in the words of Harry S. Truman,
(22:30):
our former president, the buck stops here, you know, Dave,
the buck does stop here, and that you know, the
(22:52):
people that are working the scene, particularly a scene like
this at people painted Pima County, I think, is this
kind of rural backwater? It's not. I mean, it's not
you're in the Tucson area down there. They have crimes,
they have they they have to work cases that are
(23:16):
technically let's see, how can I put it? It requires
a technician to be on their toes, all right, because
they do have a certain volume and tempo that they
work at. So whoever's in charge of it was in
fact appointed by an elected sheriff, all right, who is
(23:38):
a politician, all right, And that's ultimately who's making the
decisions here. That's why you know, I alluded to Harry
Truman about taking responsibility for it, and you know, for
all of his comments, I have yet to hear a
(23:58):
comment about personal responsibility. You know, at best, maybe he has,
but so much stuff has been said, or he has
said so many things that is I don't know. It's
it's troubling because I don't know what else has been missed.
And when I think about the blood at the door,
(24:20):
one of the things I'm I'm concerned with is directionality
of the blood as far as does it actually lead somewhere.
And to this point, we don't have a lot of
data relative to that. Because when you you see blood
(24:43):
deposition at a threshold, you're thinking, okay, this could go
obviously one of two ways. It can lead away from
the house or it can go back into the house.
And I think that that's one of the one of
the things you have to consider here. What was what
was the direction that the blood would take you in
(25:08):
You're thinking about is there deposition leading away from the door,
maybe to the driveway or to the roadway where a
car may have been parked and she could be spirited
away in there. Or was this blood deposition indicative of
something that happened at the doorway, like if she opened
(25:29):
that door, was she struck in the face at that
immediate time? And I got to tell you this looking
at this, and also there's been some comment and I'd
like to know kind of dig into this a wee bit.
With that blood deposition, You've got these kind of large
(25:49):
satellite blood drops, and that's gravitational impact blood, like it's
free falling through the air, like you have a bloody nose,
you've got a busted lip. But contained in between the
big droplets, you've got these really tiny, almost histamin like
(26:11):
blood deposition, and that is indicative of expiated blood. And
that's somebody that is, you know, blowing out like that
as opposed to aspirated blood where you're you know, like
this and it's going back down your throat, so you've
got blood that is there. So that's that's a dynamic
(26:33):
blood deposition. Was she picked up and just kind of
lifted off the ground and either taken into the house
or taken down the driveway? Because you know, I think
some people are wondering, are there is there any indication
that you might have bloody footprints? And how would a
(26:57):
perpetrate her at the door avoid stepping in blood and
leaving a bloody footprint. Well, we don't know how much
how much she has bled, you know, is that the
only focal area of blood deposition that they have? And
then how much care was taken by whoever these perpetrators
(27:20):
are in this case that have removed her from her family.
I mean, my kids, my wife has had a bloody
nose and I've borne witness to it. I've you know,
and i haven't stepped in their blood. I'm aware of it.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Joe, Could you determine how long that blood had been
in that place, because what if that blood came from
Nancy Guthrie a week before, you know, she just had
a little slip and fall, bumped her head and knogging
or whatever, and some blade came out, and could you
tell if it was a week or two old as opposed.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
To I think, yeah, that's an excellent question, Dave, Thanks
for asking that. I think that with dried blood in particular.
And keep in mind also as you well know that
area out there, it's like being in a convection of
and in the summer certainly, but you have to admit
very low humidity. So that's that's that's going to impact
(28:23):
the progression of changes in blood. Once it's left the body,
it's deposited on an area, it actually speeds up in
that environment. Here's why the absence of moisture in the
air is going to promote this blood to flake. You'll
see it. And if any of you guys at home
(28:44):
have ever you know you've been clean up around your bathroom.
Generally happens in bathroom. You'll find a spot of blood.
You'll first off, you'll look at it and you'll think
what is that and you say, oh, oh, my lord,
that's blood because it turns darker. Now you everybody's aware
that you know, when you bleed, it's kind of a
bright red color. It's got to I don't know, it
(29:07):
appears to almost have life to it, if you will.
That's kind of a ridiculous statement, but you'll see it there,
and it's kind of brilliantly red when you look at
that deposition. And again, I am basing this solely upon
this image that's coming from Briannton, okay, because this is
not like a high quality crime scene photo all right,
(29:30):
that's going to be very specific with scale and lighting
and all this kind of thing. That blood just does
not marry up with being like weeks old. Boden I
think even made a comment and this is kind of interesting.
This blood to him had the appearance of having been
(29:51):
aer rated, and that means that it's kind of there's
this when blood is coming out of a highly oxygenated
area and it's being deposited onto a surface, it'll almost
have this kind of clear bubble like appearance to it.
Whereas and it makes sense, let's say you get a
cut on your forearm, all right, or a cut on
(30:14):
your hand in your dripping blood, that blood does not
look like the same kind of blood comes out of
the nasal faarnecks area, okay, because it's oxygen rich, you're
kind of blowing it out. It's kind of like creating bubbles,
you know, that sort of thing. It's not like it's
it's not the same. It's like the kind of viscous
blood that you get if you have a cut in
(30:35):
it's free falling. So again, directionality, the nature of the deposition.
What does it tell us? I think about movement of
Missus Guthrie And we can say that it is Missus
Guthrie because they have in fact, we know now that
they've tested it and they've said that it's hers. So
(30:56):
what can you take away from that? And you know,
the blood reveals The blood reveals a lot for us,
I think, because therein it encapsulates all kinds of evidentiary
It has all manner of evidentiary value. You know, we
(31:17):
can look at the dynamics of the flow, the dynamics
of the deposition. We can determine what type of blood
it is. We can rule out animals, we can rule
out other people, we can say that it is this
literally blood typing. And then you know, you've got the
big consideration with DNA. And there's a lot of kind
(31:40):
of backchatter going on right now as you and I
are chatting Dave about commingling of DNA, and this is
going to be a big issue. I don't think that
it necessarily has so much to do with the blood here,
but there's there's so much. There are so many dynamics
working with this case as far as molecular evidence goes,
(32:03):
that trying to get this thing unspooled, if you will,
is going to be uh uh, it's going to be
the task of a titan. You're You're really gonna have
to people have to have people that are on point
with this with every every step of the way. That's why,
(32:24):
going back to earlier comments about seeing security, Dave, it
is those little things in the end that that tear
us to pieces. It's uh, it's the little foxes that
spoiled the mind.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
M Dave.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
There has been a number that has been floated, and
I really need you to help me get my mind
around there and how we kind of arrived on this number.
It is the idea that whoever entered into Missus Guthrie's
house may have been in there for I don't know
(33:21):
their ballparking a like at forty minutes this sort of thing.
Can you kind of explain the genesis of this. You're
so great at timelines, which I am not. It's one
of my big weaknesses. But it doesn't have to be specific.
But could you kind of frame that out for me,
because that's a very specific number, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I think it's a I think it's a bad number.
Actually really yeah, Okay, there, the number is forty one
minutes that we allegedly supposedly have at least one kidnapper
inside the house for forty one minutes. That number is
not pulled out of thin air. It is based on
(34:02):
the one forty seven am when the doorbell camera disconnects.
The next camera out front that happened at one forty
seven am. The next one we have the next time
is two twenty eight am, when Nancy Guthrie her pacemaker
(34:23):
is no longer connecting to the Apple Watch. So that's
where the forty one minutes come from one forty seven
am to two twenty eight am. And I'm looking at
it and saying, Okay, I understand the forty one minutes, Joe,
But I think what it really does is it doesn't
(34:46):
It gets us jammed into a time frame here, but
we don't know that Nancy Guthrie was removed from the
house at two twenty eight am. We only know that
she was twenty five feet away from her Apple Watch
at the time. We do know the Apple Watch was
(35:06):
left behind in the home, Okay, we do know that
it was right there where it always was, next to
her bed. But the only thing we know is that
at two twenty eight am, she was farther than twenty
feet away and did not connect back. That's what we know.
So to think that there was forty one minutes, dude,
(35:28):
could have been hours. We don't know, And at this
point we know what we don't know is as important
as what we do know. So saying that there was
at least forty one minutes, I'll go with that, But
I don't think there's any indication you know, that she
(35:50):
left the house at two twenty eight am. I am
concerned about a number of things that I wanted to
ask you about, though, Joe. Yeah, and again we're back
to this the crime scene which was not shut down.
In a lot of times when you and I Aren
Will used Nancy Show as a prime example. On crime
stories with Nancy Grace, we oftentimes approach a subject or
(36:13):
a discussion, well, the defense will tear this up for
these reasons, and we're not doing that. We're trying to
figure out where is Nancy Guthrie and how are we
going to find her and why are we not getting
this information? And sometimes that does get into the discussion,
but there's always well, my gosh, Joe, common sense dictates
(36:36):
that this scene, this crime scene was called a crime
scene early they being investigators, were there for twenty hours
and then they gave it back to the family. There
was no reason to do that because no family was
staying there. We had Savannah Guthrie came home, came to town,
but she stayed at Annie's house for the first several days.
(36:58):
The home was empty. There was nobody at Nancy Guthrie's home.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Joe.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
We know that police had they didn't have any crime
tape up. We don't even know if they were watching
it at that point. So anything could have happened in
that house that would change what possibly happened to Nancy Guthrie.
So just dealing with what we actually know, let's say
there's let's use forty minutes, okay, Joe, let's stay on that.
(37:24):
In forty minutes time, you've got at least two people
up and around that house, Nancy Guthrie and her kidnapper.
We know that because Nancy's no longer here and she
didn't leave on her own. We have a clumsy, bungling
idiot at the front door who's trying to cover up
the lens with weeds. Still boggles my mind. That you
would go to the trouble to cover yourself with multiple
(37:47):
you know, gloves on your hands and face mask and
everything else, and somehow you didn't think about, I need
to cover the lens, you know, pulling weeds to do that.
It's crazy. But once that individual is in the house, Joe,
every step they take, every step they take is going
to leave a mark. And I'm assuming, probably wrongly, but
(38:11):
I know that my feet carry dirt. You know, my
shoes carry dirt. They have little markings on the inside
that covers dirt and everything else I've stepped in. We've
got this individual walking up the driveway and assuming once
he or she takes the camera off the mount goes
into the house. We don't know if there was you know,
(38:33):
we don't know what transpired to get in the house.
We haven't seen that yet. But isn't that individual going
to leave at least footprints behind in that home from
entering in that doorway right there.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, glad you asked that, because most people, I think,
when you think of footprints, people always think, okay, they
walk through blood, they walk through mud. And for my friends,
my colleagues at work up nor you know, usually footprints
in the snow, which always is amazing to me. How
they lift prints out of the snow. That's an entirely
(39:09):
different conversation. But and they can do it, and they're
good at it. But here's here's what you don't think.
For those of you that have never been out west
and particularly in this environment, uh, if you don't live
in the Southwest, the one thing it is is dusty. Okay.
(39:31):
That's one thing that old Western movies get right about
about the uh you know that environment out there where
you see swirls of dust that are kind of you know, uh,
vortexing across the camera. You know, it's the wind blows
and that sort of thing there is that there is
issues with dust a lot of sand, right, so that
(39:54):
that transfers to the soles of your feet. Just because
it transfers to the soles of your feet, all right,
doesn't mean that when somebody steps on the ground and
walks away. You know, let's just say for you, anybody
out there, if you think about your heel contacting the
ground and you kind of a normal step, now you
can be a toe walker. But let's just say a
(40:16):
regular person heel striker, and they roll their foot across
the surface of the ground and then finish on the
tip of their toe. All right, there is going to
be a very specific uh uh print that has been
left behind. And if you have enough dust on the
sole of your shoe, it will replicate. It's like a
(40:41):
negative image of your of the soles of your feet,
all right. And so if you're wearing something has tread
patterns and the one the one person there's there's a
capture of an image. And I got to tell you
that the shoes that there that this visual where I
can visualize them, where I can see them, they look
(41:03):
like athletic shoes. So if they're athletic shoes, that means
that they're going to have a specific tread pattern. Okay, Well,
what we would do in that case is do an
electrostatic lift. And so if we suspect like an area
around a door in particular, let's say just inside the doorway.
(41:26):
If you're coming in through a garage and you're entering
in through the threshold, coming onto like a ceramic tile
surface or hardwood surface, there is a film that we
lay down and it's generally like my lare and it's
got it's attached to a device that generates an electrostatic
(41:49):
charge and it's it works based on magnetism. So when
that sheet is placed over that specific area, Dave, and
that charge is applied to it, it grabs that dust
in in the shape or what is left behind. I'm
trying to frame this so everybody wh understands the tread
(42:11):
pattern that's left behind and you carefully lift it up
and that thing is attached to that sheet. So you
don't just to have you don't simply have to have
say like trace contact from blood where it's going to,
you know, enter on. Say you transfer from the soles
of your shoes onto the receiving underlying surface. It can
(42:36):
be dust that this is that this you know, takes
place in and those things are easily eradicated. Now you
run into a problem obviously, because think about the dynamics
of of of missus Guthrie's home. Okay, when her kids
(42:56):
show up, you know, when they're first you know, alerted
nation show up. Well, we're talking about mama, right, Well,
you're frantically looking for moment, you're not thinking about where
you're stepping, all right, So any footprints are not going
to look like her. Mama's footprints. The sun in law's
(43:18):
footprints are certainly not going to look like mama's footprints.
And I doubt they took their shoes off before they
came to the house, particularly if they're in a frenzy.
You know, some people have a thing about shoes in
the house. You know, I got to take shoes off
the door, that sort of thing. But if you're looking
for mama she's missing, you're not thinking I'm going to
set my shoes aside. Well, they will have specific patterns
that they may have tracked in. Then you're going to
(43:39):
have first responders that come out there, the PD for instance,
They're going to track through there. So it's a matter
of collecting as many footprint samples as you can with
this environment and then beginning to eliminate kind of like
DNA wink wink, no, no, you know, what is a
(44:00):
fible and what's not. You know, they they might go
back to I don't know, they might go back to
the daughter and the sudden law say, hey, what kind
of shoes were you wearing when you walked in the house?
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And are these the same kind of shoes that you
are how often do you wear them? Those sorts of things?
And then you've got you know, your cops. Well they
might be wearing they might have standard issue boots that
they wear, all right, and they really stand out. I
wore a very specific type I always wore boots. And
I'm not going to say the manufacturer because they're not
(44:35):
paying any damn money, but there were very specific boots
that I would wear that are commonly used by first
responders and law enforcement. And that soul pattern is distinctive. Okay, Well,
if you bring somebody in that's wearing, say, workout clothing
(44:56):
or you know, track shoes or you know, what are
athletic shoes? How do these fit into this environment? You
know where did they come from? And here's kind of
even a more granular question, when were the last time
her floors were cleaned? Now that seems kind of passe,
(45:18):
but let's just say that missus gut Thrie liked clean house. Okay, well,
does she you know, kind of nominally do it herself,
because I know that she has trouble kind of ambulating,
but some people can't get past that. You know, if
you've been cleaning your house for years and years, it's
something you kind of still like to do. Or does
she have housekeeper that comes in on a regular basis.
If she does have a housekeeper that comes in on
a regular basis, how what does regular basis mean? Were
(45:42):
the floors cleaned the day before, three days before or
have they never been cleaned? I don't have an answer
to that question. So just the tracking, just the tracking
of any kind of footprints that are going through this
house are is significant. Now if you've got blood deposition
that's being transferred by feet, okay, that puts you onto
(46:06):
a whole other level here, because now you can enter
into things like blue star and luminol, where you can
you know, get the stuff to luminous and you can
actually follow a pattern at one of the creepiest things
I think I've ever seen. To me, it always it
always had a creep factor to me. Uh, when I
was at a scene and they were using luminescence and
(46:29):
you can see, you know, somebody's tracked through blood and
you can actually see the direction they're they're walking. It's
it's different than seeing bloody footprints. To me, there's something
about that luminescence that's that's really you know, since a
chill up my spine for whatever reason, you never know,
you know, you you walk through a world of that
(46:50):
seems like peace, a place that is probably held a
lot of joy over the years, where she entertained her family,
her grandbabies coming in and out, meals and if you
(47:11):
could look back through time and see it's really tragic
because now she's missing. That anchor that held this family
together is gone, like we said earlier, like a vapor
has disappeared. This is going to continue. This is only
(47:35):
part one. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags.
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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