March 12, 2026 • 40 mins
The recent Jeffrey Epstein document dump contains an email sent to an Albuquerque, New Mexico, radio talk show from an anonymous individual claiming to be a former employee at Jeffrey Epstein's Zorro Ranch.
The author claims two young foreign girls died by strangulation during "Rough, Fetish Sex" and their bodies were buried in an area of the Zorro Ranch that is made up of 1244 acres of cattle grazing land leased from the state of New Mexico.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the ranch and what it is going to take to find bodies that may have been buried ten or more years ago.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.09 Introduction
01:45.78 Zorro Ranch
05:47.46 Epstein-Zorro Ranch, 2 Foreign girls died
10:06.37 Annie Farmer was taken to Zorro Ranch
15:36.26 Finding information about the land
20:27.00 Caliche, ground that feels like cement
25:15.06 Zorro Ranch had Fire-House
30:00.50 Putting a team together to search
35:04.18 How young are the girls?
40:35.79 No soft tissue, maybe hair
42:20.62 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quody dits, but Joseph's gotten more. I've always had an
affinity for the phrase looking for a needle in a haystack,
and it seems extreme, it really does. You know when
you when you first hear that that term, you're thinking,
(00:21):
my lord, how you know how granular is this bit
of information that you're looking for that it is this
complex in order to kind of, I don't know, tease
it out of everything else that surrounds it. And I've
worked cases like that where you walk onto a scene
I have I have vivid memories and these are the
(00:43):
worst vivid memories of walking into death scenes of people
that have died in their apartments and they are orders
and it's a nightmare scenario. It's as bad as you
might think that it is, because you're trying to understand
wise person is dead, and it would be very easy
to dismiss them and say, well, they had these issues
(01:03):
and that sort of thing. But still you never know
what is hidden within those canyons of stacked newspapers and
old magazines and saved beer cans and all manner of
things I've seen in these apartments. Today, though, we're going
to talk about a case that's currently in the news,
(01:25):
or what we think might be cases. We don't really
know yet. But what we do know is that authorities
are now apparently on the hunt, on the search of
their own local haystack, looking for not one, but maybe
(01:46):
two needles. What I'm talking about is the former Zoro
ranch in New Mexico, not too far away from Santa Fe,
the two young women were allegedly murdered and buried. Coming
to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University,
(02:08):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. I
thought of you, Dave, when I saw an article drop,
and it was I guess a week ago about this
very topic that authorities were going, and about a week
(02:31):
or two prior to that, they said that they were
on the scent, are thinking about going. And this harkened
back to an earlier conversation that you and I had had,
what was it two years ago? I guess where I said,
I'm no profit, no profit, all right, But what I
said was they got to check that place out, because
(02:51):
if I was looking for a dude that had had
in their custody allegedly young women who could not be traced,
perhaps from Eastern European countries. Where am I going to
try to get rid of them? A huge body that
couldn't speak English, you know, that couldn't you know, really
take care of themselves in the vastness of America. And
(03:14):
my lord, when I found out about that in ranch,
I was thinking, that's a prime spot, dude.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, for those of you who don't know why, we're
talking about Jeffrey Epstein and his Zoro Ranch in New Mexico.
In the Treasure Trove dump of documents of Epstein was
an email, an anonymous email that was sent to a broadcaster,
a conservative talk show host named Eddie Aragon in Albuquerque,
(03:43):
New Mexico. It was sent to him in November of
twenty nineteen, three months after the death of Jeffrey Epstein,
and in this email, a person who was on staff
at Zoro Ranch, Jeffrey Epstein's Zoro Ranch, writes in this
letter that there were two young foreign girls that died
(04:09):
at the ranch during rough fetish sex. They were strangled,
died a strangulation during rough sex, and their bodies were
buried on part of Zoro Ranch property, specifically an area
of the ranch that is leased by Epstein's company from
(04:29):
the state of New Mexico for cattle grazing. So this
very specific thing is told in email form to this
talk show host. And by the way, Joe the person
also in this email, offered to share seven videos that
the employee took of people at Zoro Ranch having sex
(04:54):
with underage girls. And this individual offered to sell these
thumb drive of these seven videos and exchanged for one bitcoin.
Now I looked it up November of twenty nineteen, one
bitcoin cost about eight grand, so eight thousand dollars. Well,
Eddie Aragon did not pay the money. As a matter
(05:17):
of fact, he didn't reply to the email. He called
the FBI. He thought that the email was very specific enough,
and so he turned it over to the FBI and
then never heard anything more about it. You wouldn't have
heard about it now except for the email dump, I
mean the in document dump from Epstein that has come out.
(05:38):
And that's why right now plans are being made to
search what used to be called Zoro Ranch owned by
Jeffrey Epstein, and by the way, he owned it from
nineteen ninety three until after his death, his company still
owned it. They finally sold it and it's changed hand
twice since then.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But it was roughly within his within his a state
for about twenty years, right, Yes, it was, because I
mean his estate was settled in twenty three. Is that?
Am I accurate about that? I think it approximates that
at least. And I think the question is how much
time did he actually stay there? Because this is what
(06:18):
I do. I don't know a lot about rich folks,
but this is something I do know, is that there's
the reason they're rich. They have the ability to hold
on to their money the way other people might not
think about it. And so they will purchase things, you know,
like ranches, okay, because they can shelter money there. And
(06:42):
you know, you know, I wouldn't know if Jeffrey Epstein
could tell the difference between a Longhorn or Holstein. I
have no idea, you know, you know what I'm saying.
He's not one of these people that strikes me that
you know, kind of came up through the roots, you know,
you know, the of the common clay of people out there.
(07:02):
You know that he would understand. But what he does understand,
or apparently understood on some level, is that you have
shelter money and so it's not surprising, you know, that
you would have a purchase of a place like this.
And my lord, this thing is massive. I mean I'm
talking okay, roughly eight thousand acres right.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, it depends, Joe, It depends on who you're actually
talking to. And again now it goes back to, well,
who you're going to believe? Which source do you believe
it's either seven thousand acres or thirteen thousand square acres?
You know, I don't know, but it's a lot. It's
a lot of property. What we do know, though, is
that Epstein acquired the property from the former governor of
(07:43):
New Mexico, Bruce King. Epstein bought it in ninety three,
and then he leased twelve hundred and forty four acres
of grazing cattle land. Grazing land. Rather, he leased this
land from the State of New Mexico in ninety seven
and ninety nine. The reason I'm pointing those two things
out to you. Nineteen ninety seven and nineteen ninety nine,
(08:04):
the State of New Mexico leased the property to Jeffrey Epstein. Now,
Jeffrey Epstein was accused by Annie Farmer in nineteen ninety six.
Annie and her sister Maria Farmer were taken in by
Gillenn Maxwell, just like all the other girls were trafficked.
(08:28):
And Annie Farmer, underage which was fifteen I think at
the time, ended up in New Mexico. She's an artie painter,
you know, art thing. And anyway, long story, longer, go
look up Annie Farmer and her sister Marie, because Annie
Farmer spoke out early and often, and so whenever I
heard about Virginia Goufrey and people like that, Annie Farmer
(08:52):
was suffering PTSD way before any of those things came along,
and was standing up saying, hey, you got to put
a stop to this guy. Nobody did, Joe. And as
a matter of fact, even after Andy Farmer made those claims,
the state of New Mexico leased land to Jeffrey Epstein.
It was only in twenty nineteen after his death that
(09:14):
the Attorney general or vice attorney general in New Mexico said, oh,
we got to stop this. This is horrible, and so
they canceled the lease, the land lease. But the thing
about the land lease show and the reason it's important
to know how big it is and where it is
is because that's where according to the email, received by
the talk show hosting Albu Greek. That's where we would
(09:36):
find the bodies of two young girls, foreigners, foreigner, just
like you said we would. Joe, just like you said,
you wondered what they did with him, and I at
the time, I thought, Ah, he's probably right, but I
don't get it. I didn't see it. I just I
could not grasp that. Now I do. You were right along?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, Lord knows. I don't want to be right
about any of this stuff. You know, in the perfect world,
I wish none of it was going on because I
don't want to pollute my brain any further with it,
you know, because there's you know, there's evil that just
surrounds this whole thing, and you know, I have my
own thoughts about, you know, the idea that it's rooted
(10:22):
in demonic forces as far as I'm concerned. And the
the thing about it is is that, uh, if you're
if you are involved, and this is Dave, let's face it.
Let's look at this. Let's look at this from an
investigative standpoint instead of let's try to detach ourselves just
(10:45):
for a moment from uh, the emotion of it all,
and look at it from. If you're investigating a case
like this, edits root. This is a criminal enterprise, and
you've got multiple conspirators that are engaged in this behavior,
whatever it is where they're to trafficking, whether it is solicitation,
whether it was acquisition, and anything else that's peripheral to that.
(11:08):
And that's the way the police have to approach this
because it's really really easy. And understand, don't get me wrong,
I'm not diminishing the victims. It's really easy to get
caught up in the in the emotion of it. But
the emotion is not going to get you into court.
And well, it might get you into court, but it's
not going to push you across the finish line when
it comes to proof, and you're going to have to
(11:28):
have scientific proof. You're going to have to have the
circumstantial bits and pieces that are going to come together
that are going to form this mosaic. You know that,
you know that those that are left can be held
to account, Okay, and so when you my point here
is that if you're engaging in this behavior, you're acquiring
(11:49):
these and people all right, regardless of their age, all right,
you're requiring you're acquiring people to satisfy this criminal uh,
this criminal behavior. All right, what are you going to
do with them afterwards? And if you and as we know,
(12:09):
people that are psychopaths like this, and this is pure psychopathy,
they can dehumanize fellow humans to the point where they
become garbage and they're easy to dispose of. They you know,
they satisfy whatever need that they might have and they're
going to move on to the next. It's not like,
(12:32):
you know that there's any kind of intimacy or love
or respect or anything that's involved in this. This comes
down to it always has come down to the victims.
And you know, if you're if you're a grown adult,
you do what you want to do, you know. But
we're talking about my focus. Here are individuals that are
(12:52):
our kids, you know, and how were they acquired? And
then how can they protect themselves in the face of
all this, particularly when you've got very powerful names that
are involved in all of this. How are you going
to protect yourself? You're some kid from Eastern Europe or
I don't know, Western Europe, wherever the hell you're from,
and you can't speak the language, and you're certainly at
(13:14):
a disadvantage somebody's been waving cash in front of your face.
We're going to take care of you for the rest
of your life, or we're going to set you up
in something. And the next thing you know, you're out
in New Mexico and it looks like you've been set
down on the surface of Mars, and surrounding you, as
far as the eye can see, is nothing but tumbleweed
(13:37):
and calleche and a vast mansion and a man who
has designs on what he's going to do with you,
and none of it is good. I don't talk a
(14:05):
lot about my son on air, but I gotta I
gotta tell you something real quick, brother. I had a
conversation with my son, who's a geospacial scientist, and I
had to have that conversation with him before we came
to air so that I could understand some things, because
(14:26):
you know, his his area of expertise is looking at landforms,
all right, and using all kinds of modalities to do that.
And of course, proud Papa, I think that he's absolutely brilliant,
you know, and he is. And so I had a
conversation with him, not so much as a father to son,
but as an old you know, forensic scientist to somebody
(14:50):
that deals in in geo analysis, you know, and those
tools that those people use.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And I was like, son with analysis is to well, yeah, we're.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Taking you know, taking taking imagery of landforms and trying
to understand them, you know, from from a bird's of view,
if you will. And that's kind of the narrow way
or very broad broadway, not narrow way broadway of explaining
it to somebody that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Sometimes I'll have dinner with him and Dave, He'll start
speaking to me and it's like, what are you speaking in,
you know, in ancient Greek? I have no idea what
you're saying, but it's fascinating because he's he's certainly got
a lens on the world that no one else has.
And you know he you know, when you're talking about
you know, geo information systems and all these sorts of
(15:38):
things that and you know, reading satellite imagery and light
art and all these things that drone stuff, you know,
it's it's mind blowing. And the technology, you know, we
talk a lot about technology that we have, you know,
in in forensics now, but you begin to think about,
you know, the stuff that they can do with satellite
imagery and uh, photo imagery and all that stuff, and
(15:59):
that's the world that he you know, that he inhabits.
So I pose this to him. I was like, I
was like, son, let's say you had to tackle a
problem and you were trying to gather information about a
large parcel of land, and that you were doing this,
I don't know for whatever reason, intelligence gathering or maybe
(16:21):
you're going to do an assessment of land for say
somebody's going to purchase land, which is something that they do.
They do all these things. What's the best way to
tackle this? I said, are you going to use satellite imagery?
And he's like, okay, Dad, here's that works. He said.
What you're going to do is you're going to go
back and you're going to gather what kind of satellite
(16:44):
imagery existed of the Zoro ranch prior to him purchasing it,
if there is anything that predates you know that nineteen
ninety three, and then you work forward from that, any
kind of imagery where there's been passovers where you can
kind of see the change in the topography, you know,
(17:05):
the way the landforms, you know, like building structure, How
did that impact you know, the local land. Also, if
you've got animals out there, are they impacting the environment?
All this stuff is hydrology, you know he talks about,
and you know, just all this stuff that is just
so far beyond my pay grade. But it made me, really,
you know, have have a moment of clarity about it,
(17:26):
because I kind of sense that this was the case.
But he was talking about how if you're going to
try to validate something, if you're going to send in
military terms information down range, you know, to to pass
it on to people that are in the intel world,
you have to know from where you're coming from before
you know where you're going really and to assess that
(17:47):
land and like if anything has changed. And you know,
he took me through the steps of this. It's like,
would you use like satellite imagery? He said, yeah, in
the beginning you would. But he said, what's really critical
about a land form like this is that is going
to be multi spectral analysis cameras on either planes or
(18:09):
drones flying over where they're kind of going back and
forth and back and forth, and that gets you an
idea of what you're looking like looking at in the present,
and you go back and you compare that to satellite
imagery that may or may not exist. I don't know
if it does or not. And then you see how
the land changes, because when people introduce themselves into a space,
(18:30):
they're going to begin clearing space, all right, And the
land out there I mentioned in our Clothes in the
first segment, I talked about Collichi Colichi and you had
an experience with this, Dave. I know, having lived in
New Mexico for a while, is this hard clay? And
it is. It's I would say that it's like a
(18:53):
naturally occurring to asphalt. Almost. If you were to try
to put a shovel to it, good luck, because it
doesn't give. It doesn't There's not a lot to give
with it. So if you're going to try to do
anything with the composition of the soil out there, you
better break out the heavy equipment. And this brings us
(19:16):
back to this place being a ranch, right, you don't
have you're not going to have as much change there,
for instance, as say if you went to the beach,
if you went to the Gulf coast, all right, and
you've got shifting sand, you've got rain pouring torrential rain
that changes, you know, the hydrology around there. Will change
(19:39):
everything in a second. All you got to do is
look at people that have beach houses that are no
longer beach houses or waterhouses, you know, because things change
like that not so much here things stay in place.
And so from an investigative standpoint, if I'm looking for bodies, Dave,
I'm talking about, this is a true opportunity because you
(20:00):
might be looking at a real entumbement here. Okay, where
because the nature of the soil that you're talking about
breaking up and digging, because what we've heard is that
these bodies are buried, right. We haven't heard burned, we had,
you know, thrown away. We've heard buried in the cattle
(20:24):
grazing land. In the cattle grazing land. Yeah, and I
don't know if that, if that, And again I'm no geologist, okay,
which I think they need to have one on the team,
by the way, just FYI hear if that changes from
say some ridgeline, where the geology will change, you know,
because it'll rise up out of an area and you
(20:45):
don't know what kind of stone is underlying all that
and all that stuff that geologists get into. But just
digging a hole out there and putting a body or
bodies into these into these these holes that I still contend.
In order to big a dig, a big enough one,
you're going to have to have heavy equipment. You're going
(21:06):
to have at least a bobcat probably in order to
facilitate this. And again going back to the fact that
this is a ranch. If you have a ranch, you
have to have heavy equipment. All right, And what was
it you said, You said something interesting about the ranch
that they actually had that people might be interested to find.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, this place is so big. Just so you know,
the house that was built on this property by Epstein
is twenty six thousand square feet. That's the house they built.
Joe his living room in this big house as supposedly
as big as my home. That's how big of a house.
But this property is so large, with such a large house,
(21:46):
there's a helipad, there's a private landing strip where you
can land a jet beyond that shit they have, don't Yeah,
you know you've got the smaller jets. I'm not talking
about a seven thirty seven.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
But you know, no, no, I know what you're saying.
But that's differ sent a cub pint crop.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, it's not a piper cub it's not one of
those prop planes, but all of that Joe, and they
have their own fire not their own fire department. You've
got a fire house. That means there's a fire truck
and there's the means for putting out fires, which, by
the way, when you're out in an area like that,
(22:22):
you do have occasional wildfires that come up.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
There's a movie that came out several years ago called
Hell or High Water. Yeah, and Jeff Bridges, he places
Texas Ranger and he's driving. They're trying to catch his brothers,
who are Robin Banks and Ben Foster and Chris Oh.
It's a great movie. Yeah, the guy that did well.
(22:45):
I'm not going down that path right now, but there's
a scene in it where they're headed towards a bank
and they come upon these guys driving cattle on horseback
and there's a fire. There's a fire on the planes
and they're driving the cattle down towards the river and
the cowboy tells the sheriff. He goes, no wonder, my
kids won't get into this. Twenty twenty and I'm on
(23:07):
a I'm on a horse driving cattle down to the
river to get away from a fire. Well, yeah, and
Jeff Bridges' partner says, show we call it in and
he looks and he goes, who these boys are on
their own? And that's why Jeffrey Epstein had his own
fire department out there with a truck and the means
(23:29):
to put out fires because if they get started, they
will go for a long while before they just run
out of fuel. So that's how big this area was
that he had his own fire Yeah, his own firehouse.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah. And look, if you if you're looking to do
away or get rid of something, you know, how many
cases have we cover, brother where you know, we're talking
about this member of remains where people are putting them
in trash bags and are alongside of the road, and
you could you could just in for somebody out there
and nobody's going to come along. No one's going to
(24:05):
find it, you know, it's it's out there. But the
fact that they went to the trouble of doing roughly
and entombment here, which is bizarre to me in this environment,
why would you choose to do if that's if that
is in fact you securely Yeah, yeah, Well all right, Joe,
(24:27):
let me ask you something because you know, you and
I have talked about as bodies.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
As they degrade, Yeah, animals feast, yeah. And if you
don't bury a body, there are wild animals that will
take the remains and scatter them. Now, even if you've
got a lot of acreage, even if you've got a
(24:54):
lot of area, you are leaving something to chance if
you just leave it, leave the remains on top, so
other than chopping it up and burning, which not everybody
has the stomach for. And most of the stories we
do about those people that get caught. So if we
go to down to this and think, okay, we've got
two young girls foreign two young foreign girls have died
(25:17):
strangled during rough secks, and Epstein needs to get rid
of the bodies. And by the way, it was at
the behest of Gilain Maxwell Madame g is how she
was referred to, that the bodies were disposed of, buried
in that grassy area that was supposed to be for cattle,
which they didn't have any cattle to graze, by the way.
(25:40):
So I'm wondering if the land that has the grass
would be different than the grass over here by the
arroyo with the tumbleweeds, and the lizards, and you know,
I'm guessing it would be I mean it.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Would yeah, I would think that it would be. Geologically,
some of it's going to shift. And and that's why
whatever team that they're putting together, and this is started
in the office of the State Attorney General, all right,
the whole impetus behind this, and whatever their rationale is,
I have no idea. I'm just glad somebody's moving on it.
(26:15):
But I can tell you this from an investigative standpoint,
this is not to be taken lightly. And listen, if
you've got individuals that have been missing all these years,
they're not going anywhere. Take your time, plan, put your
teams together, and think. Think before you ever stick a
(26:36):
shovel in dirt, because something, something might be out there
and you don't want to run the risk of being
a bull in the proverbial china shop. Okay, So they're
(27:03):
going to set about this task allegedly, you know, first off,
I want to see the teams. I want to see
what the teams consist of.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
If you were putting a team together, who would you have,
What type of people would you have?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Joe, The first people I'm going after to begin with
are not going to be crime scene people. They're going
to I'm going to backfill with them. The person I'm
going to find, and it's not just going to be
one team, It's going to be multiple teams. The person
I'm going to find is going to be the best
forensic anthropologist I can find out there, even if it
(27:36):
means going to the Smithsonian, even if it means going
to the body Farm at ut wherever, I have to
go to Maple Center in Florida, there's a number of
them that are out there. I don't know what capabilities
that both the universities in the bigger universities in New
Mexico have the University of New Mexico in New Mexico
(27:59):
State have no idea. But I'm going after the best
forensic anthropologist. I'm not talking about somebody that just kind
of toys with it and dabbles around with it and
you know, yeah, I'll do this when I'm not, you know,
working on cultural anthropology. That's not who I'm looking for.
I want a true forensic osteologist, Somebody that understands bone,
somebody that also understands the nature of the land. I'm
(28:25):
really going to want a content area expert that understands
the topography out there and the geology. That's another person
that's going to be on the team. I would want
to have somebody that is a true geologist that actually
and there are people, David, I don't know if you
know that there are people out there that that work
or that have experience as forensic geologists, so they will
(28:46):
communicate with like forensic anthropologists when they're going to do
a dig. You're looking for certain certain elements that you're
you know, that make up and compose that environment. I'm
going to want at least a consult on this, and
then I'm going to backfill with top end, top end
crime scene people that can go out and document everything
(29:08):
along the way. And it has to be done, you
have to. You're going to take a real broad area
here and listen this person whoever this person, this anonymous
person that's not really anonymous because I think their name
was redacted out of wonder where there is a name.
First off, you're going to have investigators going to be
(29:29):
pressing them for information if they're still you know, upright
in a vertical position at this point, and I'm going
to press them for every bit of info that they
have specific to this area. Now, tell us precisely where
you know that this occurred, and or where you were
told that it occurred, and wherever I was told that
(29:52):
it occurred, and they're sending me out there, I'm going
to double that space because most of the time, most
of the time, you're going to come up with buck bupkus. Initially,
and particularly now since time has kind of gone by,
I think that we're looking I think that you proposed
a year. I don't want to put this all on you,
but the year twenty thirteen fourteen was kind of mentioned.
(30:16):
Perhaps you got to give yourself some wiggle room in there,
but hey, that's better than nineteen ninety three. You know,
when you purchased this place, that's what.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I thought we were going to be looking at. I
thought we were going to be back into any But
when I saw the reply that it was they meant
the term mentioned was six years ago, and this is
twenty nineteen, so give or take a year on either side,
but even then that was scar.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Here's the beauty of this, well, here's the beauty of
this dependent upon how bodies are treated. I don't know.
First off, I don't know that there are bodies. But secondly,
let's just go down this road. If there are bodies,
we don't know how they were treated in the post
mortem state in order to get rid of them. Where
they stripped of all clothing. Okay, Well, don't know that.
(31:05):
Maybe they wanted to bury the clothing or anything any
Maybe they may have buried any kind of personal items
they came in on a plane with them. Here, they're
just going to dump them all in the hole, okay.
And because of the nature of the soil out there,
and I would assume that probably once they backfilled a hole,
(31:27):
if they used a bit of heavy equipment, guess what
they will have done with this dave that you would
not say if somebody's disposing somebody, you know, down in
the swamp or something, they will take this equipment and
they'll run back and forth over the top of this thing,
and so they'll compress it. You know. We you know,
one of the things we look for in clandestine burials
(31:50):
is we look for depressed areas in the soil. We
also look for mounded areas. You know, you think about
the classic grave site where you got this kind of
mound of dirt. If you're talking about now, since twenty
thirteen and fourteen. If they went in there and they
ran back and forth over this area with a piece
of heavy equipment, they could have compacted this significantly. And
(32:14):
it's had time that with the naked eye the unaided eye,
you're not going to be able to pick up on
the nuanced area. That's why we go back to, you know,
the imagery that I was talking about, like a multi
spectrum camera where you're use an infrared and they can
do these flyovers. Well, they'll see that land that has
not been that has never been touched by man. And
(32:34):
I'm talking about turned earth. The earth has never been turned,
and all of a sudden, people that read this stuff
can see where areas have been turned, and it may
have been turned in the distant past, you know, maybe
a decade before, maybe two decades before. The say this
does not look like this. This is going to be
a target area. And you circle that area and you
begin to search that as best you can. But what
(32:59):
lies been neath there is going to be critical because
first off, all they said were two girls and that
they were foreign, Well they might be preserved so well,
Dave that you're going to be able to pull bony
structures still they might be preserved to that point. There's
not going to be soft tissue or anything like that. However,
you can have teeth, You can have enough of a
(33:23):
skeleton where you can begin to decide, well, which guy
you know, first off, is it animal or is it human?
And secondly male female? You know, what's the status of
the skeleton. Can we age the skeleton? You know, can
we bracket the skeleton by ten years? Maybe five years?
Ten years? They said, young? So are we talking are
(33:46):
we talking before the EPI facile plate plates are you know,
kind of sealed off and the growth plates and all
that sort of stuff. Is that sealed off or is
this before they're sealed off? Do we have all the
teeth that have erupted? You know girls talking about girls
have twelve year molars erupt. I don't put anything past
(34:06):
these people, you know, as far as age ranges go.
You know some of the stuff that we've heard, so
that's going to be critical here. You might find a
body out there. I don't know, but is the body
or bodies that are connected back to this event and
you want that kind of explanation and once you're able
to get them out, if you find bodies, which is
(34:27):
again going to be very difficult. They're going to be
using ground penetrating radar if they target in on spot.
You can't just take ground penetrating radar and run over,
you know, thousands of yards of earth. That's not the
way this works at all. But if you can target
in on an area and you begin to move this
thing back and forth, you can pick up on disruptions
(34:48):
in the substrata here, you know, where you can see
something that's kind of mounded up there, or some cases
you can actually see that a lot of bones, which
is kind of cool. It might be too late to
use what we call methane probes, where you probe down
into the earth to see if there's any kind of
decomposing organic matter down there.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Would you have dogs out there with you when you
did that.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I suppose that you could. Again, I don't know about
in this kind of environment. I don't know what kind
of success you would have. But the canons are amazing.
I mean, they truly are some things they can pick
up on that we otherwise might not be able to.
But what this all comes down to is that this
(35:34):
thing has to be organized to the point where there's
not going to be any stone left in turn, no
pun intended, where you're going to be able to focus
in on the job at hand. You're going to have
somebody that's leading the team that has no political interest
in this whatsoever. They're pure scientists. They just want to
(35:56):
know what the facts are. They just want to try
to find it, to discover are their bodies there, and
if they are there, how do we go about recovering
them in the most effective way possible where we get
everything out of the ground, and then who's going to
analyze it? You know, downrange from there. The upside with
New Mexico in particular, something I really dig about that
(36:18):
state is that they don't have corners. It was one
of the first states that has a statewide medical Examiner's office. Okay,
and they're really good. They're based out of they're based
out of Albuquerque. I've had several friends that have worked
there as they're called medical investigators out there, But yeah,
I've had several friends. I was actually on a national
(36:40):
national task force with one of them, probably one of
the sharpest people I've ever met. He's retired now, but
yet they've got a long history of having a highly
effective medical legal death investigation resources. And they've even got
a forensic forensic pathology training program at their medical school there,
which is a real upside. I've known two or three
(37:01):
people that have gone through that program. So couple that
with really good forensic anthropology, and you know, I don't know,
I don't know what they'll find.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I was curious if the area in the Southwest, and
in particular in this place in New Mexico, lack of
humidity is a real thing. It's a I mean, we're
the polar opposite where Joe and I happen to live.
And by the way, we're not burden Earnie. We do
not live together. We just happen to be geographically very close.
(37:31):
But we live in one hundred percent humidity. If it's
ninety seven percent humidity, we're like, oh break today. Wow,
we don't even have you know what halftime, We don't
know if our water works or not. We just go
outside and take a bath, Just take a bar soap.
You're done. But when you go to this part of
New Mexico, I remember one time three percent humidity really
(37:53):
three percent? So does that have an impact on the reservation.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, of course it does. In the short term in particular,
it does. But you know you'll see like for instance,
in southwest one of the particularly with shallow surface burials,
and also remains that are on the surface that have
not been touched by scavengers, which are it's kind of
a hard thing. What you will see that occurs out
(38:19):
there are naturally occurring mummies, or you'll get you'll get
some mumpflicational remains, so things. You know, because the skin,
the soft tissue becomes desiccated, essentially, it dries out. Just
think beef jerky here, okay, And so it becomes desiccated,
and so you're retaining retaining soft tissue, you know, in
(38:40):
a short period of time. Now, you know, with a
burial we're talking you know, decade down range. Now, if
we're thinking about the twenty three, twenty four, a decade
plus now, I doubt very seriously you'd have any any
soft tissue left behind, but you might have hair, you know,
you're going to have these other in only the bony
(39:00):
artifacts are going to be there, which is still for me.
You know, it's like we've always talked about Dave. Every
every death investigation literally begins with identification because if you
cannot get somebody identified, then you're closed off from the
(39:21):
rest of this world that's going to provide information for you.
And that's the key to all of it. It's the
key also to whoever it is that is the group
of predators that have been involved in this case for
so long, and that's where the big mystery is.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
We talk a lot about who's on this list, who's
on that list, But the one thing that's always left
in the dust, the one thing that we never have
life breathed into. For many of these cases, we don't
know who they are. We find out who they are.
(40:02):
If we find a body and we find out who
they are, that is the beginning of the true investigation
because it's with that person that you can go back
and you can kind of get a picture of their life,
maybe way back when. How would somebody that's under age
make it to the US. How is it that they
(40:23):
made it into the US, How perhaps did they make
it to some isolated location in the middle of the
high desert in New Mexico. That is the big question,
and what became of them afterwards. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
(40:46):
and this is Bodybags
Quody dits, but Joseph's gotten more. I've always had an
affinity for the phrase looking for a needle in a haystack,
and it seems extreme, it really does. You know when
you when you first hear that that term, you're thinking,
(00:21):
my lord, how you know how granular is this bit
of information that you're looking for that it is this
complex in order to kind of, I don't know, tease
it out of everything else that surrounds it. And I've
worked cases like that where you walk onto a scene
I have I have vivid memories and these are the
(00:43):
worst vivid memories of walking into death scenes of people
that have died in their apartments and they are orders
and it's a nightmare scenario. It's as bad as you
might think that it is, because you're trying to understand
wise person is dead, and it would be very easy
to dismiss them and say, well, they had these issues
(01:03):
and that sort of thing. But still you never know
what is hidden within those canyons of stacked newspapers and
old magazines and saved beer cans and all manner of
things I've seen in these apartments. Today, though, we're going
to talk about a case that's currently in the news,
(01:25):
or what we think might be cases. We don't really
know yet. But what we do know is that authorities
are now apparently on the hunt, on the search of
their own local haystack, looking for not one, but maybe
(01:46):
two needles. What I'm talking about is the former Zoro
ranch in New Mexico, not too far away from Santa Fe,
the two young women were allegedly murdered and buried. Coming
to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University,
(02:08):
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. I
thought of you, Dave, when I saw an article drop,
and it was I guess a week ago about this
very topic that authorities were going, and about a week
(02:31):
or two prior to that, they said that they were
on the scent, are thinking about going. And this harkened
back to an earlier conversation that you and I had had,
what was it two years ago? I guess where I said,
I'm no profit, no profit, all right, But what I
said was they got to check that place out, because
(02:51):
if I was looking for a dude that had had
in their custody allegedly young women who could not be traced,
perhaps from Eastern European countries. Where am I going to
try to get rid of them? A huge body that
couldn't speak English, you know, that couldn't you know, really
take care of themselves in the vastness of America. And
(03:14):
my lord, when I found out about that in ranch,
I was thinking, that's a prime spot, dude.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, for those of you who don't know why, we're
talking about Jeffrey Epstein and his Zoro Ranch in New Mexico.
In the Treasure Trove dump of documents of Epstein was
an email, an anonymous email that was sent to a broadcaster,
a conservative talk show host named Eddie Aragon in Albuquerque,
(03:43):
New Mexico. It was sent to him in November of
twenty nineteen, three months after the death of Jeffrey Epstein,
and in this email, a person who was on staff
at Zoro Ranch, Jeffrey Epstein's Zoro Ranch, writes in this
letter that there were two young foreign girls that died
(04:09):
at the ranch during rough fetish sex. They were strangled,
died a strangulation during rough sex, and their bodies were
buried on part of Zoro Ranch property, specifically an area
of the ranch that is leased by Epstein's company from
(04:29):
the state of New Mexico for cattle grazing. So this
very specific thing is told in email form to this
talk show host. And by the way, Joe the person
also in this email, offered to share seven videos that
the employee took of people at Zoro Ranch having sex
(04:54):
with underage girls. And this individual offered to sell these
thumb drive of these seven videos and exchanged for one bitcoin.
Now I looked it up November of twenty nineteen, one
bitcoin cost about eight grand, so eight thousand dollars. Well,
Eddie Aragon did not pay the money. As a matter
(05:17):
of fact, he didn't reply to the email. He called
the FBI. He thought that the email was very specific enough,
and so he turned it over to the FBI and
then never heard anything more about it. You wouldn't have
heard about it now except for the email dump, I
mean the in document dump from Epstein that has come out.
(05:38):
And that's why right now plans are being made to
search what used to be called Zoro Ranch owned by
Jeffrey Epstein, and by the way, he owned it from
nineteen ninety three until after his death, his company still
owned it. They finally sold it and it's changed hand
twice since then.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
But it was roughly within his within his a state
for about twenty years, right, Yes, it was, because I
mean his estate was settled in twenty three. Is that?
Am I accurate about that? I think it approximates that
at least. And I think the question is how much
time did he actually stay there? Because this is what
(06:18):
I do. I don't know a lot about rich folks,
but this is something I do know, is that there's
the reason they're rich. They have the ability to hold
on to their money the way other people might not
think about it. And so they will purchase things, you know,
like ranches, okay, because they can shelter money there. And
(06:42):
you know, you know, I wouldn't know if Jeffrey Epstein
could tell the difference between a Longhorn or Holstein. I
have no idea, you know, you know what I'm saying.
He's not one of these people that strikes me that
you know, kind of came up through the roots, you know,
you know, the of the common clay of people out there.
(07:02):
You know that he would understand. But what he does understand,
or apparently understood on some level, is that you have
shelter money and so it's not surprising, you know, that
you would have a purchase of a place like this.
And my lord, this thing is massive. I mean I'm
talking okay, roughly eight thousand acres right.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, it depends, Joe, It depends on who you're actually
talking to. And again now it goes back to, well,
who you're going to believe? Which source do you believe
it's either seven thousand acres or thirteen thousand square acres?
You know, I don't know, but it's a lot. It's
a lot of property. What we do know, though, is
that Epstein acquired the property from the former governor of
(07:43):
New Mexico, Bruce King. Epstein bought it in ninety three,
and then he leased twelve hundred and forty four acres
of grazing cattle land. Grazing land. Rather, he leased this
land from the State of New Mexico in ninety seven
and ninety nine. The reason I'm pointing those two things
out to you. Nineteen ninety seven and nineteen ninety nine,
(08:04):
the State of New Mexico leased the property to Jeffrey Epstein. Now,
Jeffrey Epstein was accused by Annie Farmer in nineteen ninety six.
Annie and her sister Maria Farmer were taken in by
Gillenn Maxwell, just like all the other girls were trafficked.
(08:28):
And Annie Farmer, underage which was fifteen I think at
the time, ended up in New Mexico. She's an artie painter,
you know, art thing. And anyway, long story, longer, go
look up Annie Farmer and her sister Marie, because Annie
Farmer spoke out early and often, and so whenever I
heard about Virginia Goufrey and people like that, Annie Farmer
(08:52):
was suffering PTSD way before any of those things came along,
and was standing up saying, hey, you got to put
a stop to this guy. Nobody did, Joe. And as
a matter of fact, even after Andy Farmer made those claims,
the state of New Mexico leased land to Jeffrey Epstein.
It was only in twenty nineteen after his death that
(09:14):
the Attorney general or vice attorney general in New Mexico said, oh,
we got to stop this. This is horrible, and so
they canceled the lease, the land lease. But the thing
about the land lease show and the reason it's important
to know how big it is and where it is
is because that's where according to the email, received by
the talk show hosting Albu Greek. That's where we would
(09:36):
find the bodies of two young girls, foreigners, foreigner, just
like you said we would. Joe, just like you said,
you wondered what they did with him, and I at
the time, I thought, Ah, he's probably right, but I
don't get it. I didn't see it. I just I
could not grasp that. Now I do. You were right along?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, well, Lord knows. I don't want to be right
about any of this stuff. You know, in the perfect world,
I wish none of it was going on because I
don't want to pollute my brain any further with it,
you know, because there's you know, there's evil that just
surrounds this whole thing, and you know, I have my
own thoughts about, you know, the idea that it's rooted
(10:22):
in demonic forces as far as I'm concerned. And the
the thing about it is is that, uh, if you're
if you are involved, and this is Dave, let's face it.
Let's look at this. Let's look at this from an
investigative standpoint instead of let's try to detach ourselves just
(10:45):
for a moment from uh, the emotion of it all,
and look at it from. If you're investigating a case
like this, edits root. This is a criminal enterprise, and
you've got multiple conspirators that are engaged in this behavior,
whatever it is where they're to trafficking, whether it is solicitation,
whether it was acquisition, and anything else that's peripheral to that.
(11:08):
And that's the way the police have to approach this
because it's really really easy. And understand, don't get me wrong,
I'm not diminishing the victims. It's really easy to get
caught up in the in the emotion of it. But
the emotion is not going to get you into court.
And well, it might get you into court, but it's
not going to push you across the finish line when
it comes to proof, and you're going to have to
(11:28):
have scientific proof. You're going to have to have the
circumstantial bits and pieces that are going to come together
that are going to form this mosaic. You know that,
you know that those that are left can be held
to account, Okay, and so when you my point here
is that if you're engaging in this behavior, you're acquiring
(11:49):
these and people all right, regardless of their age, all right,
you're requiring you're acquiring people to satisfy this criminal uh,
this criminal behavior. All right, what are you going to
do with them afterwards? And if you and as we know,
(12:09):
people that are psychopaths like this, and this is pure psychopathy,
they can dehumanize fellow humans to the point where they
become garbage and they're easy to dispose of. They you know,
they satisfy whatever need that they might have and they're
going to move on to the next. It's not like,
(12:32):
you know that there's any kind of intimacy or love
or respect or anything that's involved in this. This comes
down to it always has come down to the victims.
And you know, if you're if you're a grown adult,
you do what you want to do, you know. But
we're talking about my focus. Here are individuals that are
(12:52):
our kids, you know, and how were they acquired? And
then how can they protect themselves in the face of
all this, particularly when you've got very powerful names that
are involved in all of this. How are you going
to protect yourself? You're some kid from Eastern Europe or
I don't know, Western Europe, wherever the hell you're from,
and you can't speak the language, and you're certainly at
(13:14):
a disadvantage somebody's been waving cash in front of your face.
We're going to take care of you for the rest
of your life, or we're going to set you up
in something. And the next thing you know, you're out
in New Mexico and it looks like you've been set
down on the surface of Mars, and surrounding you, as
far as the eye can see, is nothing but tumbleweed
(13:37):
and calleche and a vast mansion and a man who
has designs on what he's going to do with you,
and none of it is good. I don't talk a
(14:05):
lot about my son on air, but I gotta I
gotta tell you something real quick, brother. I had a
conversation with my son, who's a geospacial scientist, and I
had to have that conversation with him before we came
to air so that I could understand some things, because
(14:26):
you know, his his area of expertise is looking at landforms,
all right, and using all kinds of modalities to do that.
And of course, proud Papa, I think that he's absolutely brilliant,
you know, and he is. And so I had a
conversation with him, not so much as a father to son,
but as an old you know, forensic scientist to somebody
(14:50):
that deals in in geo analysis, you know, and those
tools that those people use.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
And I was like, son with analysis is to well, yeah, we're.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Taking you know, taking taking imagery of landforms and trying
to understand them, you know, from from a bird's of view,
if you will. And that's kind of the narrow way
or very broad broadway, not narrow way broadway of explaining
it to somebody that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
You know.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Sometimes I'll have dinner with him and Dave, He'll start
speaking to me and it's like, what are you speaking in,
you know, in ancient Greek? I have no idea what
you're saying, but it's fascinating because he's he's certainly got
a lens on the world that no one else has.
And you know he you know, when you're talking about
you know, geo information systems and all these sorts of
(15:38):
things that and you know, reading satellite imagery and light
art and all these things that drone stuff, you know,
it's it's mind blowing. And the technology, you know, we
talk a lot about technology that we have, you know,
in in forensics now, but you begin to think about,
you know, the stuff that they can do with satellite
imagery and uh, photo imagery and all that stuff, and
(15:59):
that's the world that he you know, that he inhabits.
So I pose this to him. I was like, I
was like, son, let's say you had to tackle a
problem and you were trying to gather information about a
large parcel of land, and that you were doing this,
I don't know for whatever reason, intelligence gathering or maybe
(16:21):
you're going to do an assessment of land for say
somebody's going to purchase land, which is something that they do.
They do all these things. What's the best way to
tackle this? I said, are you going to use satellite imagery?
And he's like, okay, Dad, here's that works. He said.
What you're going to do is you're going to go
back and you're going to gather what kind of satellite
(16:44):
imagery existed of the Zoro ranch prior to him purchasing it,
if there is anything that predates you know that nineteen
ninety three, and then you work forward from that, any
kind of imagery where there's been passovers where you can
kind of see the change in the topography, you know,
(17:05):
the way the landforms, you know, like building structure, How
did that impact you know, the local land. Also, if
you've got animals out there, are they impacting the environment?
All this stuff is hydrology, you know he talks about,
and you know, just all this stuff that is just
so far beyond my pay grade. But it made me, really,
you know, have have a moment of clarity about it,
(17:26):
because I kind of sense that this was the case.
But he was talking about how if you're going to
try to validate something, if you're going to send in
military terms information down range, you know, to to pass
it on to people that are in the intel world,
you have to know from where you're coming from before
you know where you're going really and to assess that
(17:47):
land and like if anything has changed. And you know,
he took me through the steps of this. It's like,
would you use like satellite imagery? He said, yeah, in
the beginning you would. But he said, what's really critical
about a land form like this is that is going
to be multi spectral analysis cameras on either planes or
(18:09):
drones flying over where they're kind of going back and
forth and back and forth, and that gets you an
idea of what you're looking like looking at in the present,
and you go back and you compare that to satellite
imagery that may or may not exist. I don't know
if it does or not. And then you see how
the land changes, because when people introduce themselves into a space,
(18:30):
they're going to begin clearing space, all right, And the
land out there I mentioned in our Clothes in the
first segment, I talked about Collichi Colichi and you had
an experience with this, Dave. I know, having lived in
New Mexico for a while, is this hard clay? And
it is. It's I would say that it's like a
(18:53):
naturally occurring to asphalt. Almost. If you were to try
to put a shovel to it, good luck, because it
doesn't give. It doesn't There's not a lot to give
with it. So if you're going to try to do
anything with the composition of the soil out there, you
better break out the heavy equipment. And this brings us
(19:16):
back to this place being a ranch, right, you don't
have you're not going to have as much change there,
for instance, as say if you went to the beach,
if you went to the Gulf coast, all right, and
you've got shifting sand, you've got rain pouring torrential rain
that changes, you know, the hydrology around there. Will change
(19:39):
everything in a second. All you got to do is
look at people that have beach houses that are no
longer beach houses or waterhouses, you know, because things change
like that not so much here things stay in place.
And so from an investigative standpoint, if I'm looking for bodies, Dave,
I'm talking about, this is a true opportunity because you
(20:00):
might be looking at a real entumbement here. Okay, where
because the nature of the soil that you're talking about
breaking up and digging, because what we've heard is that
these bodies are buried, right. We haven't heard burned, we had,
you know, thrown away. We've heard buried in the cattle
(20:24):
grazing land. In the cattle grazing land. Yeah, and I
don't know if that, if that, And again I'm no geologist, okay,
which I think they need to have one on the team,
by the way, just FYI hear if that changes from
say some ridgeline, where the geology will change, you know,
because it'll rise up out of an area and you
(20:45):
don't know what kind of stone is underlying all that
and all that stuff that geologists get into. But just
digging a hole out there and putting a body or
bodies into these into these these holes that I still contend.
In order to big a dig, a big enough one,
you're going to have to have heavy equipment. You're going
(21:06):
to have at least a bobcat probably in order to
facilitate this. And again going back to the fact that
this is a ranch. If you have a ranch, you
have to have heavy equipment. All right, And what was
it you said, You said something interesting about the ranch
that they actually had that people might be interested to find.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Yeah, this place is so big. Just so you know,
the house that was built on this property by Epstein
is twenty six thousand square feet. That's the house they built.
Joe his living room in this big house as supposedly
as big as my home. That's how big of a house.
But this property is so large, with such a large house,
(21:46):
there's a helipad, there's a private landing strip where you
can land a jet beyond that shit they have, don't Yeah,
you know you've got the smaller jets. I'm not talking
about a seven thirty seven.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
But you know, no, no, I know what you're saying.
But that's differ sent a cub pint crop.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, it's not a piper cub it's not one of
those prop planes, but all of that Joe, and they
have their own fire not their own fire department. You've
got a fire house. That means there's a fire truck
and there's the means for putting out fires, which, by
the way, when you're out in an area like that,
(22:22):
you do have occasional wildfires that come up.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
You know.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
There's a movie that came out several years ago called
Hell or High Water. Yeah, and Jeff Bridges, he places
Texas Ranger and he's driving. They're trying to catch his brothers,
who are Robin Banks and Ben Foster and Chris Oh.
It's a great movie. Yeah, the guy that did well.
(22:45):
I'm not going down that path right now, but there's
a scene in it where they're headed towards a bank
and they come upon these guys driving cattle on horseback
and there's a fire. There's a fire on the planes
and they're driving the cattle down towards the river and
the cowboy tells the sheriff. He goes, no wonder, my
kids won't get into this. Twenty twenty and I'm on
(23:07):
a I'm on a horse driving cattle down to the
river to get away from a fire. Well, yeah, and
Jeff Bridges' partner says, show we call it in and
he looks and he goes, who these boys are on
their own? And that's why Jeffrey Epstein had his own
fire department out there with a truck and the means
(23:29):
to put out fires because if they get started, they
will go for a long while before they just run
out of fuel. So that's how big this area was
that he had his own fire Yeah, his own firehouse.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah. And look, if you if you're looking to do
away or get rid of something, you know, how many
cases have we cover, brother where you know, we're talking
about this member of remains where people are putting them
in trash bags and are alongside of the road, and
you could you could just in for somebody out there
and nobody's going to come along. No one's going to
(24:05):
find it, you know, it's it's out there. But the
fact that they went to the trouble of doing roughly
and entombment here, which is bizarre to me in this environment,
why would you choose to do if that's if that
is in fact you securely Yeah, yeah, Well all right, Joe,
(24:27):
let me ask you something because you know, you and
I have talked about as bodies.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
As they degrade, Yeah, animals feast, yeah. And if you
don't bury a body, there are wild animals that will
take the remains and scatter them. Now, even if you've
got a lot of acreage, even if you've got a
(24:54):
lot of area, you are leaving something to chance if
you just leave it, leave the remains on top, so
other than chopping it up and burning, which not everybody
has the stomach for. And most of the stories we
do about those people that get caught. So if we
go to down to this and think, okay, we've got
two young girls foreign two young foreign girls have died
(25:17):
strangled during rough secks, and Epstein needs to get rid
of the bodies. And by the way, it was at
the behest of Gilain Maxwell Madame g is how she
was referred to, that the bodies were disposed of, buried
in that grassy area that was supposed to be for cattle,
which they didn't have any cattle to graze, by the way.
(25:40):
So I'm wondering if the land that has the grass
would be different than the grass over here by the
arroyo with the tumbleweeds, and the lizards, and you know,
I'm guessing it would be I mean it.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Would yeah, I would think that it would be. Geologically,
some of it's going to shift. And and that's why
whatever team that they're putting together, and this is started
in the office of the State Attorney General, all right,
the whole impetus behind this, and whatever their rationale is,
I have no idea. I'm just glad somebody's moving on it.
(26:15):
But I can tell you this from an investigative standpoint,
this is not to be taken lightly. And listen, if
you've got individuals that have been missing all these years,
they're not going anywhere. Take your time, plan, put your
teams together, and think. Think before you ever stick a
(26:36):
shovel in dirt, because something, something might be out there
and you don't want to run the risk of being
a bull in the proverbial china shop. Okay, So they're
(27:03):
going to set about this task allegedly, you know, first off,
I want to see the teams. I want to see
what the teams consist of.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
If you were putting a team together, who would you have,
What type of people would you have?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Joe, The first people I'm going after to begin with
are not going to be crime scene people. They're going
to I'm going to backfill with them. The person I'm
going to find, and it's not just going to be
one team, It's going to be multiple teams. The person
I'm going to find is going to be the best
forensic anthropologist I can find out there, even if it
(27:36):
means going to the Smithsonian, even if it means going
to the body Farm at ut wherever, I have to
go to Maple Center in Florida, there's a number of
them that are out there. I don't know what capabilities
that both the universities in the bigger universities in New
Mexico have the University of New Mexico in New Mexico
(27:59):
State have no idea. But I'm going after the best
forensic anthropologist. I'm not talking about somebody that just kind
of toys with it and dabbles around with it and
you know, yeah, I'll do this when I'm not, you know,
working on cultural anthropology. That's not who I'm looking for.
I want a true forensic osteologist, Somebody that understands bone,
somebody that also understands the nature of the land. I'm
(28:25):
really going to want a content area expert that understands
the topography out there and the geology. That's another person
that's going to be on the team. I would want
to have somebody that is a true geologist that actually
and there are people, David, I don't know if you
know that there are people out there that that work
or that have experience as forensic geologists, so they will
(28:46):
communicate with like forensic anthropologists when they're going to do
a dig. You're looking for certain certain elements that you're
you know, that make up and compose that environment. I'm
going to want at least a consult on this, and
then I'm going to backfill with top end, top end
crime scene people that can go out and document everything
(29:08):
along the way. And it has to be done, you
have to. You're going to take a real broad area
here and listen this person whoever this person, this anonymous
person that's not really anonymous because I think their name
was redacted out of wonder where there is a name.
First off, you're going to have investigators going to be
(29:29):
pressing them for information if they're still you know, upright
in a vertical position at this point, and I'm going
to press them for every bit of info that they
have specific to this area. Now, tell us precisely where
you know that this occurred, and or where you were
told that it occurred, and wherever I was told that
(29:52):
it occurred, and they're sending me out there, I'm going
to double that space because most of the time, most
of the time, you're going to come up with buck bupkus. Initially,
and particularly now since time has kind of gone by,
I think that we're looking I think that you proposed
a year. I don't want to put this all on you,
but the year twenty thirteen fourteen was kind of mentioned.
(30:16):
Perhaps you got to give yourself some wiggle room in there,
but hey, that's better than nineteen ninety three. You know,
when you purchased this place, that's what.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
I thought we were going to be looking at. I
thought we were going to be back into any But
when I saw the reply that it was they meant
the term mentioned was six years ago, and this is
twenty nineteen, so give or take a year on either side,
but even then that was scar.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Here's the beauty of this, well, here's the beauty of
this dependent upon how bodies are treated. I don't know.
First off, I don't know that there are bodies. But secondly,
let's just go down this road. If there are bodies,
we don't know how they were treated in the post
mortem state in order to get rid of them. Where
they stripped of all clothing. Okay, Well, don't know that.
(31:05):
Maybe they wanted to bury the clothing or anything any
Maybe they may have buried any kind of personal items
they came in on a plane with them. Here, they're
just going to dump them all in the hole, okay.
And because of the nature of the soil out there,
and I would assume that probably once they backfilled a hole,
(31:27):
if they used a bit of heavy equipment, guess what
they will have done with this dave that you would
not say if somebody's disposing somebody, you know, down in
the swamp or something, they will take this equipment and
they'll run back and forth over the top of this thing,
and so they'll compress it. You know. We you know,
one of the things we look for in clandestine burials
(31:50):
is we look for depressed areas in the soil. We
also look for mounded areas. You know, you think about
the classic grave site where you got this kind of
mound of dirt. If you're talking about now, since twenty
thirteen and fourteen. If they went in there and they
ran back and forth over this area with a piece
of heavy equipment, they could have compacted this significantly. And
(32:14):
it's had time that with the naked eye the unaided eye,
you're not going to be able to pick up on
the nuanced area. That's why we go back to, you know,
the imagery that I was talking about, like a multi
spectrum camera where you're use an infrared and they can
do these flyovers. Well, they'll see that land that has
not been that has never been touched by man. And
(32:34):
I'm talking about turned earth. The earth has never been turned,
and all of a sudden, people that read this stuff
can see where areas have been turned, and it may
have been turned in the distant past, you know, maybe
a decade before, maybe two decades before. The say this
does not look like this. This is going to be
a target area. And you circle that area and you
begin to search that as best you can. But what
(32:59):
lies been neath there is going to be critical because
first off, all they said were two girls and that
they were foreign, Well they might be preserved so well,
Dave that you're going to be able to pull bony
structures still they might be preserved to that point. There's
not going to be soft tissue or anything like that. However,
you can have teeth, You can have enough of a
(33:23):
skeleton where you can begin to decide, well, which guy
you know, first off, is it animal or is it human?
And secondly male female? You know, what's the status of
the skeleton. Can we age the skeleton? You know, can
we bracket the skeleton by ten years? Maybe five years?
Ten years? They said, young? So are we talking are
(33:46):
we talking before the EPI facile plate plates are you know,
kind of sealed off and the growth plates and all
that sort of stuff. Is that sealed off or is
this before they're sealed off? Do we have all the
teeth that have erupted? You know girls talking about girls
have twelve year molars erupt. I don't put anything past
(34:06):
these people, you know, as far as age ranges go.
You know some of the stuff that we've heard, so
that's going to be critical here. You might find a
body out there. I don't know, but is the body
or bodies that are connected back to this event and
you want that kind of explanation and once you're able
to get them out, if you find bodies, which is
(34:27):
again going to be very difficult. They're going to be
using ground penetrating radar if they target in on spot.
You can't just take ground penetrating radar and run over,
you know, thousands of yards of earth. That's not the
way this works at all. But if you can target
in on an area and you begin to move this
thing back and forth, you can pick up on disruptions
(34:48):
in the substrata here, you know, where you can see
something that's kind of mounded up there, or some cases
you can actually see that a lot of bones, which
is kind of cool. It might be too late to
use what we call methane probes, where you probe down
into the earth to see if there's any kind of
decomposing organic matter down there.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Would you have dogs out there with you when you
did that.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
I suppose that you could. Again, I don't know about
in this kind of environment. I don't know what kind
of success you would have. But the canons are amazing.
I mean, they truly are some things they can pick
up on that we otherwise might not be able to.
But what this all comes down to is that this
(35:34):
thing has to be organized to the point where there's
not going to be any stone left in turn, no
pun intended, where you're going to be able to focus
in on the job at hand. You're going to have
somebody that's leading the team that has no political interest
in this whatsoever. They're pure scientists. They just want to
(35:56):
know what the facts are. They just want to try
to find it, to discover are their bodies there, and
if they are there, how do we go about recovering
them in the most effective way possible where we get
everything out of the ground, and then who's going to
analyze it? You know, downrange from there. The upside with
New Mexico in particular, something I really dig about that
(36:18):
state is that they don't have corners. It was one
of the first states that has a statewide medical Examiner's office. Okay,
and they're really good. They're based out of they're based
out of Albuquerque. I've had several friends that have worked
there as they're called medical investigators out there, But yeah,
I've had several friends. I was actually on a national
(36:40):
national task force with one of them, probably one of
the sharpest people I've ever met. He's retired now, but
yet they've got a long history of having a highly
effective medical legal death investigation resources. And they've even got
a forensic forensic pathology training program at their medical school there,
which is a real upside. I've known two or three
(37:01):
people that have gone through that program. So couple that
with really good forensic anthropology, and you know, I don't know,
I don't know what they'll find.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
I was curious if the area in the Southwest, and
in particular in this place in New Mexico, lack of
humidity is a real thing. It's a I mean, we're
the polar opposite where Joe and I happen to live.
And by the way, we're not burden Earnie. We do
not live together. We just happen to be geographically very close.
(37:31):
But we live in one hundred percent humidity. If it's
ninety seven percent humidity, we're like, oh break today. Wow,
we don't even have you know what halftime, We don't
know if our water works or not. We just go
outside and take a bath, Just take a bar soap.
You're done. But when you go to this part of
New Mexico, I remember one time three percent humidity really
(37:53):
three percent? So does that have an impact on the reservation.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah, of course it does. In the short term in particular,
it does. But you know you'll see like for instance,
in southwest one of the particularly with shallow surface burials,
and also remains that are on the surface that have
not been touched by scavengers, which are it's kind of
a hard thing. What you will see that occurs out
(38:19):
there are naturally occurring mummies, or you'll get you'll get
some mumpflicational remains, so things. You know, because the skin,
the soft tissue becomes desiccated, essentially, it dries out. Just
think beef jerky here, okay, And so it becomes desiccated,
and so you're retaining retaining soft tissue, you know, in
(38:40):
a short period of time. Now, you know, with a
burial we're talking you know, decade down range. Now, if
we're thinking about the twenty three, twenty four, a decade
plus now, I doubt very seriously you'd have any any
soft tissue left behind, but you might have hair, you know,
you're going to have these other in only the bony
(39:00):
artifacts are going to be there, which is still for me.
You know, it's like we've always talked about Dave. Every
every death investigation literally begins with identification because if you
cannot get somebody identified, then you're closed off from the
(39:21):
rest of this world that's going to provide information for you.
And that's the key to all of it. It's the
key also to whoever it is that is the group
of predators that have been involved in this case for
so long, and that's where the big mystery is.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
We talk a lot about who's on this list, who's
on that list, But the one thing that's always left
in the dust, the one thing that we never have
life breathed into. For many of these cases, we don't
know who they are. We find out who they are.
(40:02):
If we find a body and we find out who
they are, that is the beginning of the true investigation
because it's with that person that you can go back
and you can kind of get a picture of their life,
maybe way back when. How would somebody that's under age
make it to the US. How is it that they
(40:23):
made it into the US, How perhaps did they make
it to some isolated location in the middle of the
high desert in New Mexico. That is the big question,
and what became of them afterwards. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
(40:46):
and this is Bodybags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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