July 8, 2026 • 58 mins
As a child, he was the sensational frontman of the Jackson 5 who was accused of the most heinous crimes against children. As a man, his career sales figures haven't been matched by anyone:
- The only artist with five solo studio albums that each sold more than 20 million.
- His album "Thriller" is still the best-selling album of all time with over 70 million sold.
- In the first year after his death, he sold more than 75 million records worldwide.
His death is often viewed as a “sad ending” for a “troubled man,” but the truth is Michael Jackson was MURDERED! Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack discuss the shocking homicide of the man once dubbed “the King of Pop” by a man who swore to “do no harm.”
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality Box with Joseph Scott More. You ever long for sleep?
I do? You know? I got to tell you, at
this stage in my life, I am actually busier than
any other time in my life. And the sad part
(00:25):
about it is I'll lay in bed thinking about what
I have to do the next day, just kind of
ticking boxes that you go along and look, there are
some people, and I understand this, that need assistant sleeping.
You know, for a while when I was I worked
for a long time overnight with the medical Examiner in Atlanta,
(00:47):
you know, working at ten thirty to six thirty shift,
and I remember the doctor. He put me on sleep
medication and ambient and the reason is that your rhythm
gets all out of whack when you work overnights. Humans
are not meant to do that. And I always felt
like I was in a dream like state. You fatigue
(01:10):
no matter how much you sleep, and worry creeps into
your mind, right, You're always worried about things, heightened sensitivity.
But just to think about this, if you were the
biggest pop star that had ever existed in the history
of pop music, and you've got the weight of the
(01:32):
world on your shoulders, you're preparing for a tour. You've
got health concerns, maybe even financial concerns. Do you think
you might need some help sleeping? Well, we're going to
talk about sleep, and we're going to talk about a
lack of sleep, and we're going to talk about the
(01:52):
death but the King of Pop Michael Jackson. I'm Josephcott
and this is bodybacks Dave early on in your career
in radio, which I'm always fascinated by brother Dave's career
(02:13):
in radio. It just absolutely I don't know why it is,
It's just one of those things that I've always been
enamored with. So when I sit here with him, I
feel like I'm, you know, I'm kind of talking to
like the superstar, right, And no, I really mean this
because of what they have to do and particularly years ago,
(02:34):
what they had to do in that studio, and they're
kind of like in this world of their own. Did
you did you spend time working nights on the radio?
And if so, how long did what was that? Like?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I did?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I worked briefly at w k X in Raleigh, North Carolina,
and worked overnight there briefly for the summer of nineteen
blah blah blah. But I only did it for about
four months, but during that time was involved in this
h No, it was after that, and I will tell
(03:10):
you that during that time period I was indoctrinated into
the Worms. Worms was a group of individuals that got
together and indoctrinated people who worked in the in particular radio,
but in general people who work overnight, and WORMS stands
for workers of regular midnight shifts. And it had a
(03:32):
whole list of things you were allowed to do, like
mow your yard at six am on a Saturday morning.
You know, things like that. And I will tell you
it does mess with your sleep when you're used to,
you know, a regular schedule, a normal nighttime sleep schedule.
Working overnights can mess with your sleep a lot. Something
else that can too. Joe and I have talked about
(03:53):
this openly. I have been sober since August seventh of
nineteen ninety but prior to that, I had a fear
of insomnia. Is something that is very common among alcoholics,
and it is something that affected me for a long
time and even and afterwards. And I say that because
(04:13):
this is a real thing, the not being able to
go to sleep. And in this story about Michael Jackson's
passing Joe when I was looking over the minute by
minute breakdown the timeline when he went to sleep. I'm
going to say this because we've got a lot to
go through before we get to this, but I will
tell you this that from the minute he laid down, Okay,
(04:34):
not after an hour of laying there, as you mentioned,
thinking about all the things you had going on. No, no, no,
with Michael Jackson at this stage in June of two
thousand and nine, this fifty year old man, at one
point thirty in the morning goes to lay down for
bed and immediately calls out, I need something.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
To help me sleep. I can't go to sleep.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I don't know about you, but for me, I do
have to lay down and put my head on the
pillow and get comfortable before I determine I can't fall
asleep on my own. So I'm throwing that out there
that this is a real thing for Michael Jackson at
this time, and he called out for help and falling
(05:16):
asleep immediately after hitting the pillow.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Joe, Yeah, and it is. It is an incredible struggle
for many of us, you know, to I'm still fight it,
you know, to this day.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And by the way, guys, y'all know this, Joe does
deal with insomnia and not being able to sleep.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So that's really personal. And I'm not trying to hop
into your.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Bed here, no, no, no no, But I know how
it affects you, and I know how you're you are
so concerned and you know a lot of you notice
that Joe is empathetic and sympathetic about the victims. And
you cannot examine death for as long as this man
did and not have it impact your life. And Joe,
(06:04):
I'm proud of how you as a man processed that
and that you really do your first thought is always
about the victim and the victim's family, and I think
that's a great thing. And I do think that's part
and parcel of why you do have problems sleeping sometimes
it is.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It is, and it goes back to the diagnosis of PTSD.
And you know all that stuff that I went through
all those years ago, you know when I wrote that
memoir and you know it and it always impacted me,
and you interpret it from a sensory standpoint in a
different way. You know how these things are kind of
impacting your brain and all those things that you that
(06:44):
you see, you remember that you have to deal with
and and many times from any of us that are
in the space, we'll do one of two things. We'll
either go curl up and give up, or or we
will work such a pace, kind of a frenetic pace.
And a lot of that is it's not it's kind
(07:05):
of self medicating without taking medication, because you're kind of
numbing yourself, you know, to things many times. And I'm
chief among centers relative to that. And when I think
about I cannot begin to imagine the world from a
logistics standpoint, from a performance standpoint that Michael Jackson dealt with.
(07:29):
And one of the reasons I wanted to do this
episode was Kimmy and I actually went and saw the movie.
And it's something we don't go to the We don't
go to the movies that much anymore. I used to
really enjoy it. I just I get so tired of,
you know, being hammered by things that are just rehashing
(07:51):
of former stories. There's not good writing anymore, you know,
It's just it gets really really tedious. And of course
that's very subjective. On my part. I've just kind of
pushed away. And plus I think I've got every movie
platform that's out there, you know, that comes into my mind.
But there's something special about going to the theater and
we wanted, you know, we're kids of the sixties, man,
(08:13):
you know, we saw we saw Michael Jackson, you know,
performing on all the shows, you know, when he was little,
because he was like you know us, you know, to
a little bit older, but you know, still like us.
We could identify with that. I remember the Saturday Morning
cartoon with the Jackson five and of course you know,
as as you're progressing through you see him you know,
(08:35):
kind of evolved, you know. And but what really got
to me I think about the movie, and the movie
essentially ends about eighty seven or eighty eight before you
really get into the dark stuff. They did not go
down that road. But what really kind of got me
about the movie was I saw a lot of the
(08:58):
inside baseball on his childhood and growing up in that
household with Joe Jackson, and it was it was impactful,
I really have to say. You know, and when you
have to perform at that level ever since you were
a little bitty thing, you know, which he was, man,
I mean he was young, and you've got a dad
(09:20):
that's standing there with a belt in his hand. And
if you don't, if you don't perform right, you're going
to get the hell beat out of it. And that's
what it came down to. So he's you know, the
stage is kind of set if you will, Okay, I
know all these people out there, you can adjust your
course any time you want to. Good luck with all
(09:42):
of that, you know, because when that stuff is programmed
into your brain, you're going down this certain trajectory, there
are all kinds of pitfalls along the way. And I
submit to you that the stuff that we that his
the moment that he died, you know, all that stuff.
I think that it began all the way back in
the sixties in Geary, Indiana. I think that he's dragging
(10:03):
all that baggage along with him and he's trying to
numb hisself any way he possibly can, and he just
the voice is just got too loud. Bro.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Wow, that probably is park and Barcelo. What happened? You know?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I will say as we break down the autopsy of
Michael Jackson. It is over fifty pages long, and the
one thing that shocked me was I remember he was
going through rehearsals at the staple Center leading up to this,
and we were able to find a breakdown of that
timeline of that day, including the songs that he sang.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
After his passing.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
You know, he was getting ready for a world tour
called This Is It. And after his passing, producers grabbed
footage from his rehearsals at the Staple Center of all
these different songs and they created a movie out of
it called This Is It. I happened to see that
years ago, and I will tell you, Joe I was
(11:03):
blown away by his energy and well his ability, you know,
just that the talent to perform. Now this has We're
not talking about his private personal life or what he
won in court or what really transpired. It's you know,
I thought I knew that story until I actually started
researching it, and I'm just going to leave.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It at that. But here you go.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
When you're dealing with a fifty year old man who's
five foot nine and one hundred and thirty six pounds,
immediately I'm thinking that that's kind of smalls, that's not
a big guy. And what I'm watching on stage in
these rehearsals at the Staples Center as he went through
for several hours the night you know before you went
on high energy Joe.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I mean, he is out there.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
He's dancing, he's singing, he's directing, he's choreography. You know,
he's doing all of these things and very engaged. He
is very, very involved. And the timeline takes it all
the way through that evening at the rehearsal. Now what
happened to the rehearsal and the practicing and all nothing
to do with his passing. It just allows a little
inside peak at what his physical lifestyle was like the
(12:13):
night before he passes away. And all I'm thinking of
is these people on stage with him, that are working
with him, that are going through these movements, watching him
and thinking that twelve hours later he's gone. He's twelve
hours later he is no more.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, you think about just systemically, if he is being provided,
which he has provided obviously with all of these just
incredibly powerful medications, which we'll get into, how do you
go from you know, zero to one hundred because you know,
(12:47):
again going back to the movie, his nephew portrays him
in the movie, and I swear that kid and he
sang all the music, he did, the dance moves. A
kick could go on tour right now, and it amazing talent.
You see him in that dramatic representation where I didn't
realize how much Jackson was involved in all the choreography.
(13:09):
I mean he was, you know, just they covered everything
relative to that. And so that that brings me to
the point you just made about the rehearsals at the
Staples Center. When he's in that environment and you have
to be really locked in mentally, can you imagine having
to do all of this, you know, in a fossy
(13:30):
kind of way, you know, being up there on the
stage and telling everybody where their marks are. Oh, by
the way, you have to sing and you have to
dance as well, and that intensity, I can begin to
understand why you would have difficulty, you know, shutting your eyes,
finding that quiet place in your brain. Unfortunately, in the
world that Michael Jackson inhabited, it was very seldom he
(13:57):
ever heard the word no in That was his downfall.
Brother day. For those that are not familiar, can you
(14:18):
take us back to June fifth, June twenty six of
two thousand and nine and just kind of refresh our
memory as to what timeline is here.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know, it is important and that's why we talked
about it briefly a minute ago about the timeline of
what was going on in his world the day of
June twenty fifth, that evening when they rehearsed at the
Staples Center choreography for the upcoming tour, and the activity
that he was involved in that night on stage four hours.
(14:50):
It wasn't just thirty minutes in and out. We're talking
about hours on stage. Now, when Michael Jackson leaves, I'm
going I want to make sure you have all this right.
Because Michael arrives home after hours of rehearsal at the
Staple Center. He leaves around eleven thirty ish and gets
(15:14):
home renting a home in the Holmby Hills Brentwood area
of southern California. He is not living at Neverland Ranch
while he is rehearsing at the Staple Center. It's important
to know that because a lot of people get confused
on this. Michael gets home twelve thirty ish, he interacts
(15:34):
with the staff and his children. Now, children tend to
live the life of their parents, you know, in their
work schedule, and so he interacts with his children when
he gets home after his rehearsals. It is late. Now
we're talking about one o'clock in the morning. They are
then taken and put to bed. Now I said this
(15:58):
a minute ago, and it bears repeating. Just Scott Morgan
at one thirty, Michael Jackson. This is two hours after
he leaves the Staples Center. He arrives home, kisses the kids,
talks to the staff, He lays down to go to
sleep at one thirty and calls out, I need something
to help me sleep. I can't sleep. Now, Joe, I
(16:18):
mentioned this before. Most of us give it a few minutes.
We lay down, we move the pillows around, you know,
get comfortable before we say I can't sleep. Yeah, at
least I do not, Michael. He calls out immediately, and
that's when this is. I really want to hope you
can explain this because at one thirty calls out and
(16:41):
doctor Conrad Murray gives him valium.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's one thirty in the morning. At two am he
has given he calls out, I can't sleep. He's given
lords of pam Am. I saying that right, Joe, yes, yes, sure,
what is it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's at a van. It's out a van and as
a matter of fact, it's you will see it pushed
and when I mean pushed. I mean like people that
are having like a panic attack many times, many times,
at least in the past, that's been kind of the
default position for people that are like an emergency medicine,
(17:21):
because they'll push what's referred to as a bullus of adavan,
and if you've got like an ivy will say in place,
they can take it, give you an injection and it
kind of smooths you out a little bit. But again
that's it's at a it's at a bit of a
higher level than say value, okays. Valum does have a
(17:43):
calming effect you start to get in an adavan, it's
a it's got a bit more of a punch to it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
So one thirty in the morning, lays down, asked for drugs.
Doctor Murray gives him valium. Half hour later, lords apam.
An hour goes by and Michael Jackson again continues to
call out, and this time he has given additional sedative medication.
I'm gonna have to wait for you to break out
the uh the talk screen in the autopsy report, Joe,
(18:13):
because I don't know exactly what he was given then
at three o'clock, but he was administered something two hours later,
more lauras a PAM, seven p thirty midazolum. Yes, for said, Okay,
he gets that between one thirty and seven thirty. We're
(18:33):
talking during a six hour period of time. Joe Vallium,
laurasa PAM twice, additional sedative medication and then mid aolam.
And again, remember this is administered because he can't sleep. Now,
this has been something he's been treated before. He's gone
to the hospital before because he couldn't sleep. But Joe,
(18:55):
this is a lot of medication over a very free
period of time for a man who is five foot
nine and one hundred and thirty six pounds.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, it's a hell of a med looad to put
onto somebody. And we've talked about kind of in the
past on other cases, you know, kind of the smaller
you are. And it makes sense, right when you start
to put this level of medication into a system, there's
only so much that your system can handle. And also
(19:25):
it's important to remember what you just said, this is
not new territory, all right, So when he has a
level of resistance, probably because I'll give you for instance, okay,
versaid in particular, Ver said, most of the time it's
(19:47):
a benzodiazepine which falls into the same family as adavan
and valume, and these were things, but versaid itself, this
is the medication. Like for any of our friends out there.
If you've ever been through surgery, right, uh, and you're
gonna go under anesthesia right when they first put your
line in, you know, when they've got you in the
(20:08):
in the pre op area, you know, and you're you're
laying there and you're all tense and everything, they put
the line in your IV line. Many times the nurse
will come in and they'll push versaid. And the thing
about versaid is that it puts you into this almost
like dream like state, you know, and it's like everything
(20:31):
is cool, man. You know, I'm I'm ready to rock
and roll. Whatever you're gonna do to me. Uh yeah,
let's you know, let's sally forth and get the surgery done.
You're not seeing there. Oh my god, they're gonna give me.
You know, I'm gonna go through surgery. And so versaid
in and of itself is very powerful, and it's it's
generally it's a precursor to the actual anesthesia. Dave. When
(20:54):
I see this and I see this list of drugs.
First off, if if you're taking benzos all right already
to kind of chill you out, This is not something
that would be like recommended, like if you were going
in for surgery, right, they would say, you don't, you
(21:15):
need to forego the benzos. You know, if you're being
prescribed this, you've got anxiety disorder, you're coming in the
next morning, trust me, will take And this is what
they always say, trust me, if you've got anxiety, we're
going to take care of you, you know when you
get here. And you kind of got to lean into
that because what you're creating here is this kind of
toxic stew, if you will, okay, And everything leads back
(21:39):
to how it impacts your ability to breathe, your ability
the ability of your heart to function correctly. And so
now he's at a point in this timeline where they're
pushing ver said on him okay, And just that and
that alone would give any death investigator, any forensic theologists pause.
(22:01):
It would certainly give any anesthesiologists out there pause. You know,
they're taking a look at this and saying, my lord,
look at the drug wagon here. You know, that was
kind of dragon behind him, and this was this had
become kind of a norm for him, Dave.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
And that's the part that is very.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
It's it's very sad because he's under the care of
a doctor Conrad Murray. And now I want to get
to what comes next. After the entire night of medication,
which again had been an ongoing thing, at seven point thirty,
he gets doctor Conrad Murray administers more drugs. But that
(22:39):
doesn't do it. Now, Michael Jackson has been attempting to
sleep since one thirty in the morning. He's been given
a lot of drugs over several hours. I mean he's
and yet at ten forty in the morning, Joe Conrad Murray,
doctor Conrad Murray administer's propofaal. Now, before we go any further,
(23:03):
please tell us what propofol is, what it's used were usually,
because having propofol in a residence not a hospital is
not only unusual, it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
No, it's absolutely positively bananas. All right, I cannot describe
to you how out of the norm. As a matter
of fact, let me give you let me kind of
frame this out for you, okay, Because the La County
Corner did a remarkable job. They actually went out Dave
(23:41):
dig this, the chief medical examiner went out and got
a consultation, deputized an antithesiologist. Okay, as you know, like
a deputy corner for a period of time, brought him
on and they've probably consulted with this person before.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I think waitea deputized mm hm temporarily this case, like.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, it's a deputy deputy medical examiner.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Is that a common thing?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, it can be, particularly if you've got consultants on
the staff that you regularly used, and we've had, I
know in New Orleans we had deputy deputy corners that
were psychiatrists, deputy corners that were surgeons, you know, in
a consultation. In that way, they are working under the
authority of the corner and so they're called to testify.
(24:38):
You know, they have that legitimacy. You know, it kind
of drives the scene. But went out and got a
consult from this anteshesiologist. And listen to what I'm about
to say, very very carefully, because not only did the
antithesiologists in this case, they give their breakdown and they're
(24:59):
a opinion relative to the meds that were administered. There
was nowhere in the literature nowhere in the scientific literature
where the antithesiologists could find a reference for people that
had been administered this medication in a therapeutic setting that
(25:27):
happened to be in a private residence. Did you know
that the only time, the only reference they could find
at that particular time, back in two thousand and nine,
you know, when they're working this case up was an
od where somebody had gotten their hands on it and
used it in an inappropriate manner, you know, in a private,
(25:51):
private setting. This is this is something that is so
is so abnormal relative to normal practice of medicaid administering medication.
One more thing, this doctor that which again is kind
(26:11):
of a world that you and I can't really imagine.
You imagine having a doctor there at your beck and
call and you're saying, I can't sleep. And literally the doctor.
We're not talking about like a nurse's aide, you know,
God bless nurses aids, you know, CNA's. We're not talking
about an LPN. We're not talking about an RN. We're
talking about an MD. He's there, Hey, doc, I can't sleep.
(26:35):
This isn't a completely different level, all right, And this
guy is I think at best a cardiologists. No insult cardiologists.
He is a surgeon, though he's certainly not an anesthesiologist.
He's got access to propofol because he is a physician.
But just because you have access to it doesn't mean
(26:56):
that you know how to administer it. And so when
caesiologists saw this, and I can only imagine the wheels
turning in this person's mind as they're analyzing the scene
and what has been brought before them by the corner.
This is it's such an odd ball just, you know,
for a moment, just take out the factor that this
(27:18):
is Michael Jackson. If this was any other case, anes
caesiologists would be there saying, oh my lord, this is
the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. You know who
does this?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Propofol used to knock somebody out for a surgical procedure.
Had I was telling Joe earlier, I had the CT
mileogram done from my neck and they were using propofol
to knock me out. They called it the magical milk.
I think is what the guy told me, big burly
guy standing in front of me, Joe. He puts a
towel on his shoulder, on his chest like that and
(27:51):
He goes, hey, man, why don't you just lay your
head downe And I'm like why he goes, as soon
as we start this, you're going to be out. He goes,
I'll bet you a hundred bucks you're not going to
make it to ninety five back from one hundred. Well,
I knew a guy that big. First of all, he
knows what he's talking about. I'm not betting, you know,
at a loss. I got it to ninety seven, I think,
and I was gone, just boom. And it keeps you
(28:12):
like that until they turn it off, right Joe, Yeah,
it does.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And it has to be and it has to be
administered in a very particular way regarding from a therapeutic standpoint,
because when you're in this environment and you have your
minister things like this, and I talked about how it
impacts the lungs in the heart. Guess what you have
(28:39):
to have there. You have to have the ability to
like at your you know, at your fingertips. You have
to have equipment that will aid in helping someone breathe. Okay,
that wasn't there. As a matter of fact, they had
an O two canister that was there, you know, kind
(29:01):
of the oxygen that you see, thing was empty, all right,
and none of the appropriate things were around to support
this drug. And I'm glad that you mentioned what was
the reference you made to milk, just to say.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Oh, yeah, the magical milk as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
The magical milk. So we've heard this over the years,
haven't we. You know, because the statement that Jackson had
allegedly made, and this is very insightful, he said, more milk,
more milk. Now I don't know the provenance of that
(29:40):
statement necessarily, okay, But first off, if you've ever been
to surgery and they're a ministering anesthesia, okay, with procofol
it is it is milk like, it's very viscous, it's thick.
When you see it, you do look at it and
you think this, you know, this looks like something I
put over myself cereal. Okay, it's very milky in appearance.
(30:03):
And the fact that Jackson has allegedly made this comment,
you know, more milk, that gives you an idea that
he is familiar, you know, with the drug, that this
is something that is in his life regularly, because he's
not saying, you know, I need to be anesthetized, you know,
(30:28):
I need to be put to sleep, not in a
lethal manner. By the way. We're not talking about like
an animal shelter here to kill shelter. We're talking about
a man that's saying, I need more milk because that's
gonna help me sleep. The fact that he would be
(30:49):
so used to this, and the fact that he's using
this name that's associated with this drug is kind of shocking.
So when you're looking at this from an investigative standpoint
and how frequently this may have been administered to him,
that familiarity rings through. And it also because you know,
(31:11):
Michael Jackson on his own could not go or you know,
have some you know, some person that works for him
just run down to the local Walgreens or CVS and say, hey,
you know, give me a couple of bals of propofol.
All right, You're going to have to have a physician
that does this, that facilitates this, and that's that's really
(31:31):
one of the most terrifying things about this day. So,
brother Dave, you know, we were talking about propofol just
a moment ago and what exactly happened at ten forty.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Well, and this is the part that still to this day,
I don't know the answer. I'm hoping you can shed
some light on it. Okay, when doctor Conrad Murray had
been administering medication documented since one thirty in the morning,
when Michael Jackson first laid down. Now we're at ten
forty in the morning, nine hours later, Joe, and he's
(32:15):
now going to give him the propofol. And this is
not the first time. I mean, propofol has become a
regular part of Michael Jackson's going to sleep routine so
much so, according to this comes back from information we
find out later on, it was a nightly ritual almost
(32:35):
certainly more than twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Times a month.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And the reason this hits me wrong is ten forty
in the morning after a night Why did he wait
so long instead of giving all these other drugs, and
that's a lot of drugs to give one person during
that time period. Why did he just give him the
propofol at one thirty in the morning.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I don't know. You go back to drug resistance. I
think Dave and this guy being a physician, he should
have retrospectively, you know, would it could have, should have,
but just at a baseline, you should have an understanding
as a practicing physician who, by the way, was a
licensed instead of California.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And Texas and Nevada. Joe.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, So you've got these states that have recognized him
as a practitioner. Right, he should know better. He's had
medical training up to the point where the state recognizes
and he's a practitioner. Right, So what does that say? Right?
You can't necessarily judge the character of a person just
because they've passed some boards or gotten licensure or whatever
(33:40):
the case might be. But back to your point, when
we think about all of the benzos that had been
previously introduced into Jackson's system, First off, there's not enough
time to metabolize all that stuff because it's still floating,
floating around in his system. As a matter of fact,
I'll give you kind of an insight, like, when Jackson's
(34:02):
autopsy has performed, they actually find bits of drugs in
his stomach. Okay, so it's co mingled with it's kind
of a I think it's like I can't remember the
exact measurements off the top of my head, but there
was liquid in his stomach. It's kind of a brown
tan liquid, which you see many times when you open
(34:23):
the stomach and there are pill fragments. And yes, we
can appreciate pill fragments in the stomach because they're resistant
to break down. You know how we talked about things
like time release tablets and all those sorts of things. Well,
there's a way that they can kind of manufacture that
from a promacological standpoint. But there were still pill fragments
(34:43):
in his stomach, so we know that the process of
getting all of this stuff from ramped up into his
system had not completed yet, you know, because the stuff's
being absorbed through his stomach. But yet he still got
these meds in his system. And these are kind of
like building blocks or steps, if you will. Well, as
(35:04):
it turns out, these are steps toward death because he's
having to deal with this particular preexistent benzo load. And
then you take propofol and you introduced that into system
as well, and it's a recipe for disaster day.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Well, and that's why I don't understand, Joe, is that
all this time basically wasted on other drugs, making it
and weakening his health in the process before administering the propofol.
But one quick thing, Joe Michael Jackson was injured in
that pepsi commercial shoot in the early eighties.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It was not It was not covered the way it
would be now.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
His his damage was bad, His scouts was very burned,
and it caused him to take pain medication for an
extended period of time to the point where he became
dependent on the pills the medication. Would dependence on pain
medication have an impact on how valium and some of
(36:09):
these other drugs would impact Michael Jackson at the time
of Yeah, if.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
You're if you're talking about like opiate based stuff, Yeah,
you know, kind of numb the pain. And it also
it also goes goes through another barrier as well, Right,
So when an individual has a history of taking pain
meds and they know the results from that, like if
I take this, I will at least momentarily feel better,
(36:37):
all right, So I think personally that it makes you
it it opens up the door to other things, like
when you think about taking all these anti anxiety medications,
which benzos typically are, that door is open to you
as well. And you know, he's kind of working his
(37:01):
way through this kind of milky existence, no pun intended.
You know that that he's been living living this since
the eighty fourth thing we also have to consider that
he's he's got some orthopedic problems as well. I mean,
let's just think about him dancing, right, he's got back problems. Uh,
(37:22):
the you know, all the gyrations and the spinning and
all that stuff that he does as a professional performer.
That creates problems. Well from a physical standpoint where you're
going to be in pain. You know, I'm not saying
that he's like an NFL player, but we all know
that with everybody that's engaged in any kind of any
(37:44):
kind of physical activity and you do it for a
protracted time, your joints, everything else is going to be
impacted by that. It's just to what degree. So and
this is kind of, you know, it's kind of the
sad story that you continue to hear about people in entertainment.
And it's not a news story, right. There are very
(38:05):
few people and Dave, you've been around more famous people
than I certainly have a particular music industry and all that.
And I can bet you dollars to donuts most of
these people don't have what used to be called well
you have a lot of people around you there called
yes men, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take care
(38:26):
of that. I'll make that happen. I'll make this happen,
that sort of thing. We just want to keep you
happy and all that sort of thing. You got very
few people that ever say no to you, right well,
and so when you're on this trajectory, man, it's lethal, dude.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Yeah, And sadly that had been Michael Jackson's life. The
only person that ever told him no was Joe, his dad,
and Joe was not there anymore. Michael is making his
own call, and doctor Conrad Murray, as a doctor, should
have been watching out for his patient. But let's get
to this, the propofile at ten forty. Now, according to
doctor Conrad Murray, he remained in the bed room from
(39:01):
ten forty to eleven fifty. This is an important time period, Joe,
and it is the central focus of what became part
of the charging documents against Conrad Murray. A medical emergency
nine to one one was called around eleven fifty AM.
So from ten forty to eleven fifty AM, Michael Jackson
(39:24):
is put under with propofol.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
At eleven to.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Fifty, Conrad Murray notices Michael Jackson is no longer breathing
on his own. He calls nineber one CPR efforts to
begin right away. Staff members are summoned. I mean, everything
happens nine one one people arrive and paramedics on scene
make a number of observances. And when Michael Jackson has
(39:51):
found at twelve twenty six a PM, he's in cardiac arrest,
advanced life saving measures are taken, which what would that
be Joe in this condition.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, so you know, they they pushed I know, for instance, epinephrine,
which is a stimulant, you know, to try to get
his heart going once again. Uh, they've gone in through
at one point in time, they've gone in through his
femeral artery and inserted a balloon into his a order,
(40:29):
which is the major blood supply vessel in the body,
runs right down our midline. And again that again is
for the purposes of trying to breathe life back into him.
He's got evidence of resuscitation, he's got several fractured ribs
where they were actually doing compressions. That's something that you
(40:49):
commonly see. So there were these as they refer to
the heroic measures that were being taken to try to
revitalize him in some way. And they you know, and
when you have again, I go back, I go back
to this idea of this toxic soup that he's got
in his system. It's really hard, you know, to defeat
(41:11):
that on any level, you know. And some people had said, well,
he's fifty years old. He had a heart attack and
died fifty years old. Hey, if you've got some kind
of predisposition in your family where you've got severe athrosk
history of severe athrist erosis, that sort of thing, maybe
you've got a family history of heart problems. I wasn't
(41:31):
the case here, you know, when they you know, some
people said they just merely want to say, well, he
had a heart attack and died. That's not the case here. Yeah,
his heart stopped beating, but it stopped beating because of
all the meds that he had on board. They his
coronary vessels when they did the dissection on his heart
were clean. Okay, he had no occlusion or and if
(41:54):
there were, they were just like what are called just
these mural streaks, mural like mural on the wall, streaks
on the cornerator vessels. Even when they opened his order,
he just had these kind of streaks on there, you know,
like cholesterol build up, that's there. At orosclerosis, that's there,
but nothing nothing that would say, okay, he had a
(42:18):
blockage in his heart, so immediately you can check that
off the list. You know. Now the lungs are a
little bit heavy, which you expect, you know, if you're
talking about these kind of medications they make the lungs head.
He's got history of pneumonia as well, and I had
a lot of questions about that because if you're predisposed
to pneumonia, and many of us that have had pneumonia,
(42:38):
you realize that once you've had it, it's easier for
you to get it again. Okay, and he has had
pneumonia in the past. I and a lot of people
get pneumonia. But I'm just saying that in and of itself,
because they do make note of that in the autopsy,
that there's evidence that he has had pneumonia, that he
(42:59):
has pneumonia. He's got bronchitis as well that's impacting his
ability to breathe. And then all of a sudden, you know,
you take these bronchial problems that he has, and these
medications are like a bucket of gasoline that you're throwing
on this fire. It's already pre existent, you know, in
(43:22):
his respiratory system. You're really really dancing on the razor's edge.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Here, Wow, now, Joe.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
When Michael Jackson was transported to the hospital, there is
some discussion over the condition of his body at that time,
but he was declared dead at t twenty six pm.
So to get that timeline down ten forty, propofolo is
administered at eleven to fifty, Conrad Murray says he notices
(43:52):
Michael's not breathing eleven fifty one, call for help, and
it leads to his passing. Now I want to go
to something and I asked you at this because the
first paramedic on scene made a number of comments about
what transpired.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
When they got there, because.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Using propofol at this stage is weird, beyond the pale,
not something anybody's seen before. And the paramedics are not
even aware that's what it is. They don't they don't
know what they're walking into a fifty year old man
in the Holmby Hills in southern California. You know, they're
thinking cardiac arrests too, I'm sure. And when they get
(44:29):
there they find out that this is not what they expected.
It's Michael Jackson. And by the way, they ask Conrad Murray,
how long has this been going on? I want to
make sure I get this right, because, dude, the paramedics,
they don't believe what Conrad Murray is telling them.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Joe. They Conrad Murray.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Doctor Conrad Murray suggested that this had just happened, this
medical event had just transpired. They arrived fifteen minutes after
the nine one one called Joe and just happened. That
means that this just transpired with a medical doctor on site. Yeah,
And paramedics aren't buying it, and actually said, for the record,
(45:17):
I immediately asked him some information. This is the paramedics speaking.
Immediately asked him some information. What happened? How long has
this been going on? And he told me that it
just happened. This was the patient. To me that it
seemed that he had not just passed away. You realize
what he's saying here. Michael Jackson was dead at the home.
(45:38):
They transported a dead body. Is that common practice, Joe?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
It is to a certain degree. You know that I've
always been fascinated by this dynamic that happens in emergency medicine,
and I've seen it played out. You see it play
out with children many time. God bless our paramedics. But
sometimes you know, when you, for instance, you have they're
(46:03):
not immune to this. So if you have a child
that's seen, and you know the child is gone, you'll
still see them run what's called code and you know
they're they're talking about ACLS protocol here, which is the
top level of life saving all right. And so if
you work in the emergency room, I see you, if
you're an your physician, your nurse, you have to be
(46:23):
a CLS certified, right, And it's a rather rigorous program
to go through, and they understand what mets to administer,
you know, when to trust, to stimulate the heart, you know,
all these sorts of things because it's very complex. And
when they would have seen him, you know, at that
(46:45):
moment time, they would have noted that he may have
been culled to the touch. But we're talking about Michael Jackson.
So they're going to go through as many heroic measures
as they possibly can to try to bring him back,
if they can, to pull him away from the edge,
But at that point in time, he may have already
(47:07):
been over the edge, you know, his you know, even
you know, the thing about it is is that his
pupils were fixed and dilated and completely unresponsive at all. So,
you know, one of the things we look for, and
you know, the seven cardinal signs of death. We need
to do a whole episode of seven cardinal signs. Yeah,
(47:31):
the seven cardinal signs. One of the things we look
for is non reactive pupils. All right, medical personnel notice anyway,
but when we're trying to assess death. As death investigators,
I always want to make sure that the person I'm
standing over is in fact dead, because there are stories
and there are cases out there where the person was
in fact not dead. So that's one of the seven
(47:52):
cardinal signs of death. And so his pupils are fixed
and dilated, he's non responsive. They probably did external rub
on him, anything else, any kind of stimulus they could
to get him to react, but yet it was to
no avail. So they start to run this code. They're
going through the protocols. You know, they're pushing medications, they're
(48:14):
trying as many heroic measures as they can. But you know,
by the time by the time he he's gotten into
the emergency room, he was essentially pronounced dead. I think
at like four I think it's fourteen, twenty six hours
on the twenty fifth, I think, or twenty sixth, he was.
(48:37):
He was deceased at that moment in time. There was
nothing else they could do for him. And as you
know from my perspective, you know, you look at it.
If you look at it, it's like, yeah, no kidding,
there's nothing you could have done for him because the medications,
you know, because as tiny as he was, all right,
(49:01):
if you took those medications and applied those to me,
I'd be a dead man. I mean I really would.
But you know, with this resistance that's built up. One
of the remarks that I was really shocked by, the
amtesthesiologist actually mentions this in their consult. They talk about
(49:24):
that there are vials vials dave of propofol. They're around
the room. Yeah, they're there, you know, like they're physically
there and just lying about. You know, that could be
drawn up. And I know one of the big questions
that people have are is probably well, how was this administered?
(49:47):
You know, was this given as a direct injection?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
And Joe, I got to ask you, because I did
not realize this was a thing until I started prepping this,
I didn't realize the people thought and that there is
a real theory that Michael Jackson could have administered propofol
to himself and that that is what led to his death.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
You can dispel that, right.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can very easily. As a matter
of fact, he had he had an indwelling port that
was that had been placed an ivy port that was
placed in his lower left leg. Okay, so just imagine this.
Remember how you you were. You gave a great description
(50:31):
earlier talking about propofol, right when when it's administered, you
couldn't get to.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I couldn't make it in ninety seven to ninety seven,
started one, ninety nine, ninety eight.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
I think I got you beat. Last time I did
ninety five. Oh wow, Well we'll have to check check
on one another in the future anyway. So what it
would have if this was self administered, what this would
have required for him to do is first draw up
the medication, right, and he's got a check right, and
then bend ford in the bed, seek out this port
(51:07):
that's on his left leg, hit center mass on this port,
push the drug all right, and then he would have
he would you know, essentially fall back and go to sleep,
right right, That's what you would think would happen. But
you take that even more evidence of the fact he
(51:28):
couldn't do it. If you've got this, these numbers of
benzos in your system, I'll put to you this away.
Would you want to give him a set of car keys?
Oh my god, those benzos that he had in the system. No.
I mean, he might not can sleep, but I guarantee
you his gait is certainly not going to be steady.
If he's you know, everything is kind of this. You know,
(51:53):
it's not he's not hallucinating, but he's in this kind
of weird state. You know, in his brain the motor
functions are slow down significantly. And this is kind of
a delicate thing that you have to do. First off,
you're having to take the measurement on the dosage that
you're going to apply to yourself, and then hit this
spot where someone has set up an IV in his leg.
(52:16):
I don't think, Michael Jackson, maybe I'm missing something. I
don't think that he had ever set up an IV
before sight, you know, in his leg, which, by the bye,
just so folks understand, this is one of the most
difficult spots to start an IV. It takes work in
(52:38):
order to do it. It's not like doing it, you know,
in the arm, in the back of the hand, or
the crook of the arm, the antacubable fossa, it's not
like that. The leg is much more difficult, in my opinion,
And I don't think he did that, Dave, that this
goes to because you know, at the end of the day,
this is a homicide. This is a homicide, k And
(53:00):
so every bit of this is has evidentiary value, right,
And you.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
Brought it up. Why you said that, because it is
a homicide. The one thing that pains me now is
the final comment from the paramedic who was talking about
you know that this was a patient to me that
it seemed that he had not just passed away, that
some time had gone before we were notified. That's frustrating.
(53:30):
Part number one. Part number two is what the paramedics
live with to this day. Joe reflecting on this call.
This is a quote reflecting on this call. In the
days of the weeks the months afterwards. One of the
greatest regrets that all of us had was that we
had not been called sooner.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know why they weren't called sooner. In
my humble opinion, Conrad knew he was doing wrong. Oh yeah,
he And I'm sure that he went into panic mode
because this runs contrary to everything that he should have
(54:11):
been taught as a physician, or maybe he was taught.
And maybe the fact that he's now in this orbit,
this celebrity orbit, and he's willing to facilitate anything from
Michael Jackson, a fifty year old man. He's willing to
do it because it's Michael Jackson, right. He knew better,
(54:34):
And I think that probably panic set in. Maybe he
tried to do the heroics all on his own, thinking
that somehow he could pull him back from the edge,
and by the you know, by the time paramedics rolled in, Dave,
it was just it was too late. It was too late,
(54:55):
you know. The The thing about it is is that
with this physician administering these medications, the meds become weaponized. Now,
whether or not he has in tent or not is
I don't care. You know, you don't have to prove
motive on any level. It's the fact that you took
(55:17):
these steps. And I think he's tell me what he's
convicted again was convicted.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Of I remember this happens.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Michael Jackson dies June twenty sixth of two thousand and nine.
Doctor Conrad Murray was charged and was convicted by a
jury of involuntary manslaughter on November seventh, twenty eleven. The
maximum possible sentence for involuntary manslaughter four years in the
(55:44):
County Jail in Los Angeles. Conrad Murray, doctor Murray served
one year eleven months of that sentence due to good behavior.
He was released his Oh, by the way, while he
was in the jail, and we have talked to that
jail cell a lot in the last weeks on other
shows Joe, because of the individuals who are being kept
(56:07):
there at the Metropolitan Jail in Los Angeles not a
great place. But for doctor Conrad Murray, Joe, he was
kept in a solo cell. He had his own TV
and he had his own cell phone the entire time
he was in jail. One year and eleven months later
he gets released. He never gets his doctor's license, his
medical license to practice in California, Texas or Nevada doesn't matter.
(56:32):
He goes to his home country, Trinidad and Tobago becomes
gets his medical license. I don't know if he had
one there before, but he has one now and he
opened up a medical clinic.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
Wow. So if you're vacationing, by the.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
Way, medical clinic our medical institute rather DCM Medical Institute,
Trinidad and Tobago, doctor, you.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
Strongly enough to be aware, all right. But yeah, I mean,
and this is a very sad chapter. It's a sad
chapter in the sense that you know, we we think
we know celebrities, you know, we think we know know
their lives because of the things that we see, you know,
(57:22):
them demonstrating out in public, and you really don't. You
don't know what's going on behind the scenes, because after all,
it is entertainment, right there is there is kind of
a false front, you know, like when you walk onto
a Hollywood studio. You know, you go through and there
(57:45):
are all these towns that they've created storefronts, if you will,
but there's nothing behind it. It's kind of vacuous. Michael
Jackson had an amazing life relative to the music that
he created and the way he entertained is. But just
(58:05):
because you see something that is portrayed maybe in your mind,
is heroic on the outside, doesn't mean that there's not
darkness in dwelling behind the scenes. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
and this is body Bags
Quality Box with Joseph Scott More. You ever long for sleep?
I do? You know? I got to tell you, at
this stage in my life, I am actually busier than
any other time in my life. And the sad part
(00:25):
about it is I'll lay in bed thinking about what
I have to do the next day, just kind of
ticking boxes that you go along and look, there are
some people, and I understand this, that need assistant sleeping.
You know, for a while when I was I worked
for a long time overnight with the medical Examiner in Atlanta,
(00:47):
you know, working at ten thirty to six thirty shift,
and I remember the doctor. He put me on sleep
medication and ambient and the reason is that your rhythm
gets all out of whack when you work overnights. Humans
are not meant to do that. And I always felt
like I was in a dream like state. You fatigue
(01:10):
no matter how much you sleep, and worry creeps into
your mind, right, You're always worried about things, heightened sensitivity.
But just to think about this, if you were the
biggest pop star that had ever existed in the history
of pop music, and you've got the weight of the
(01:32):
world on your shoulders, you're preparing for a tour. You've
got health concerns, maybe even financial concerns. Do you think
you might need some help sleeping? Well, we're going to
talk about sleep, and we're going to talk about a
lack of sleep, and we're going to talk about the
(01:52):
death but the King of Pop Michael Jackson. I'm Josephcott
and this is bodybacks Dave early on in your career
in radio, which I'm always fascinated by brother Dave's career
(02:13):
in radio. It just absolutely I don't know why it is,
It's just one of those things that I've always been
enamored with. So when I sit here with him, I
feel like I'm, you know, I'm kind of talking to
like the superstar, right, And no, I really mean this
because of what they have to do and particularly years ago,
(02:34):
what they had to do in that studio, and they're
kind of like in this world of their own. Did
you did you spend time working nights on the radio?
And if so, how long did what was that? Like?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I did?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I worked briefly at w k X in Raleigh, North Carolina,
and worked overnight there briefly for the summer of nineteen
blah blah blah. But I only did it for about
four months, but during that time was involved in this
h No, it was after that, and I will tell
(03:10):
you that during that time period I was indoctrinated into
the Worms. Worms was a group of individuals that got
together and indoctrinated people who worked in the in particular radio,
but in general people who work overnight, and WORMS stands
for workers of regular midnight shifts. And it had a
(03:32):
whole list of things you were allowed to do, like
mow your yard at six am on a Saturday morning.
You know, things like that. And I will tell you
it does mess with your sleep when you're used to,
you know, a regular schedule, a normal nighttime sleep schedule.
Working overnights can mess with your sleep a lot. Something
else that can too. Joe and I have talked about
(03:53):
this openly. I have been sober since August seventh of
nineteen ninety but prior to that, I had a fear
of insomnia. Is something that is very common among alcoholics,
and it is something that affected me for a long
time and even and afterwards. And I say that because
(04:13):
this is a real thing, the not being able to
go to sleep. And in this story about Michael Jackson's
passing Joe when I was looking over the minute by
minute breakdown the timeline when he went to sleep. I'm
going to say this because we've got a lot to
go through before we get to this, but I will
tell you this that from the minute he laid down, Okay,
(04:34):
not after an hour of laying there, as you mentioned,
thinking about all the things you had going on. No, no, no,
with Michael Jackson at this stage in June of two
thousand and nine, this fifty year old man, at one
point thirty in the morning goes to lay down for
bed and immediately calls out, I need something.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
To help me sleep. I can't go to sleep.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
I don't know about you, but for me, I do
have to lay down and put my head on the
pillow and get comfortable before I determine I can't fall
asleep on my own. So I'm throwing that out there
that this is a real thing for Michael Jackson at
this time, and he called out for help and falling
(05:16):
asleep immediately after hitting the pillow.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Joe, Yeah, and it is. It is an incredible struggle
for many of us, you know, to I'm still fight it,
you know, to this day.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
And by the way, guys, y'all know this, Joe does
deal with insomnia and not being able to sleep.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
So that's really personal. And I'm not trying to hop
into your.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Bed here, no, no, no no, But I know how
it affects you, and I know how you're you are
so concerned and you know a lot of you notice
that Joe is empathetic and sympathetic about the victims. And
you cannot examine death for as long as this man
did and not have it impact your life. And Joe,
(06:04):
I'm proud of how you as a man processed that
and that you really do your first thought is always
about the victim and the victim's family, and I think
that's a great thing. And I do think that's part
and parcel of why you do have problems sleeping sometimes
it is.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
It is, and it goes back to the diagnosis of PTSD.
And you know all that stuff that I went through
all those years ago, you know when I wrote that
memoir and you know it and it always impacted me,
and you interpret it from a sensory standpoint in a
different way. You know how these things are kind of
impacting your brain and all those things that you that
(06:44):
you see, you remember that you have to deal with
and and many times from any of us that are
in the space, we'll do one of two things. We'll
either go curl up and give up, or or we
will work such a pace, kind of a frenetic pace.
And a lot of that is it's not it's kind
(07:05):
of self medicating without taking medication, because you're kind of
numbing yourself, you know, to things many times. And I'm
chief among centers relative to that. And when I think
about I cannot begin to imagine the world from a
logistics standpoint, from a performance standpoint that Michael Jackson dealt with.
(07:29):
And one of the reasons I wanted to do this
episode was Kimmy and I actually went and saw the movie.
And it's something we don't go to the We don't
go to the movies that much anymore. I used to
really enjoy it. I just I get so tired of,
you know, being hammered by things that are just rehashing
(07:51):
of former stories. There's not good writing anymore, you know,
It's just it gets really really tedious. And of course
that's very subjective. On my part. I've just kind of
pushed away. And plus I think I've got every movie
platform that's out there, you know, that comes into my mind.
But there's something special about going to the theater and
we wanted, you know, we're kids of the sixties, man,
(08:13):
you know, we saw we saw Michael Jackson, you know,
performing on all the shows, you know, when he was little,
because he was like you know us, you know, to
a little bit older, but you know, still like us.
We could identify with that. I remember the Saturday Morning
cartoon with the Jackson five and of course you know,
as as you're progressing through you see him you know,
(08:35):
kind of evolved, you know. And but what really got
to me I think about the movie, and the movie
essentially ends about eighty seven or eighty eight before you
really get into the dark stuff. They did not go
down that road. But what really kind of got me
about the movie was I saw a lot of the
(08:58):
inside baseball on his childhood and growing up in that
household with Joe Jackson, and it was it was impactful,
I really have to say. You know, and when you
have to perform at that level ever since you were
a little bitty thing, you know, which he was, man,
I mean he was young, and you've got a dad
(09:20):
that's standing there with a belt in his hand. And
if you don't, if you don't perform right, you're going
to get the hell beat out of it. And that's
what it came down to. So he's you know, the
stage is kind of set if you will, Okay, I
know all these people out there, you can adjust your
course any time you want to. Good luck with all
(09:42):
of that, you know, because when that stuff is programmed
into your brain, you're going down this certain trajectory, there
are all kinds of pitfalls along the way. And I
submit to you that the stuff that we that his
the moment that he died, you know, all that stuff.
I think that it began all the way back in
the sixties in Geary, Indiana. I think that he's dragging
(10:03):
all that baggage along with him and he's trying to
numb hisself any way he possibly can, and he just
the voice is just got too loud. Bro.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Wow, that probably is park and Barcelo. What happened? You know?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
I will say as we break down the autopsy of
Michael Jackson. It is over fifty pages long, and the
one thing that shocked me was I remember he was
going through rehearsals at the staple Center leading up to this,
and we were able to find a breakdown of that
timeline of that day, including the songs that he sang.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
After his passing.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
You know, he was getting ready for a world tour
called This Is It. And after his passing, producers grabbed
footage from his rehearsals at the Staple Center of all
these different songs and they created a movie out of
it called This Is It. I happened to see that
years ago, and I will tell you, Joe I was
(11:03):
blown away by his energy and well his ability, you know,
just that the talent to perform. Now this has We're
not talking about his private personal life or what he
won in court or what really transpired. It's you know,
I thought I knew that story until I actually started
researching it, and I'm just going to leave.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
It at that. But here you go.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
When you're dealing with a fifty year old man who's
five foot nine and one hundred and thirty six pounds,
immediately I'm thinking that that's kind of smalls, that's not
a big guy. And what I'm watching on stage in
these rehearsals at the Staples Center as he went through
for several hours the night you know before you went
on high energy Joe.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I mean, he is out there.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
He's dancing, he's singing, he's directing, he's choreography. You know,
he's doing all of these things and very engaged. He
is very, very involved. And the timeline takes it all
the way through that evening at the rehearsal. Now what
happened to the rehearsal and the practicing and all nothing
to do with his passing. It just allows a little
inside peak at what his physical lifestyle was like the
(12:13):
night before he passes away. And all I'm thinking of
is these people on stage with him, that are working
with him, that are going through these movements, watching him
and thinking that twelve hours later he's gone. He's twelve
hours later he is no more.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, you think about just systemically, if he is being provided,
which he has provided obviously with all of these just
incredibly powerful medications, which we'll get into, how do you
go from you know, zero to one hundred because you know,
(12:47):
again going back to the movie, his nephew portrays him
in the movie, and I swear that kid and he
sang all the music, he did, the dance moves. A
kick could go on tour right now, and it amazing talent.
You see him in that dramatic representation where I didn't
realize how much Jackson was involved in all the choreography.
(13:09):
I mean he was, you know, just they covered everything
relative to that. And so that that brings me to
the point you just made about the rehearsals at the
Staples Center. When he's in that environment and you have
to be really locked in mentally, can you imagine having
to do all of this, you know, in a fossy
(13:30):
kind of way, you know, being up there on the
stage and telling everybody where their marks are. Oh, by
the way, you have to sing and you have to
dance as well, and that intensity, I can begin to
understand why you would have difficulty, you know, shutting your eyes,
finding that quiet place in your brain. Unfortunately, in the
world that Michael Jackson inhabited, it was very seldom he
(13:57):
ever heard the word no in That was his downfall.
Brother day. For those that are not familiar, can you
(14:18):
take us back to June fifth, June twenty six of
two thousand and nine and just kind of refresh our
memory as to what timeline is here.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know, it is important and that's why we talked
about it briefly a minute ago about the timeline of
what was going on in his world the day of
June twenty fifth, that evening when they rehearsed at the
Staples Center choreography for the upcoming tour, and the activity
that he was involved in that night on stage four hours.
(14:50):
It wasn't just thirty minutes in and out. We're talking
about hours on stage. Now, when Michael Jackson leaves, I'm
going I want to make sure you have all this right.
Because Michael arrives home after hours of rehearsal at the
Staple Center. He leaves around eleven thirty ish and gets
(15:14):
home renting a home in the Holmby Hills Brentwood area
of southern California. He is not living at Neverland Ranch
while he is rehearsing at the Staple Center. It's important
to know that because a lot of people get confused
on this. Michael gets home twelve thirty ish, he interacts
(15:34):
with the staff and his children. Now, children tend to
live the life of their parents, you know, in their
work schedule, and so he interacts with his children when
he gets home after his rehearsals. It is late. Now
we're talking about one o'clock in the morning. They are
then taken and put to bed. Now I said this
(15:58):
a minute ago, and it bears repeating. Just Scott Morgan
at one thirty, Michael Jackson. This is two hours after
he leaves the Staples Center. He arrives home, kisses the kids,
talks to the staff, He lays down to go to
sleep at one thirty and calls out, I need something
to help me sleep. I can't sleep. Now, Joe, I
(16:18):
mentioned this before. Most of us give it a few minutes.
We lay down, we move the pillows around, you know,
get comfortable before we say I can't sleep. Yeah, at
least I do not, Michael. He calls out immediately, and
that's when this is. I really want to hope you
can explain this because at one thirty calls out and
(16:41):
doctor Conrad Murray gives him valium.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's one thirty in the morning. At two am he
has given he calls out, I can't sleep. He's given
lords of pam Am. I saying that right, Joe, yes, yes, sure,
what is it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's at a van. It's out a van and as
a matter of fact, it's you will see it pushed
and when I mean pushed. I mean like people that
are having like a panic attack many times, many times,
at least in the past, that's been kind of the
default position for people that are like an emergency medicine,
(17:21):
because they'll push what's referred to as a bullus of adavan,
and if you've got like an ivy will say in place,
they can take it, give you an injection and it
kind of smooths you out a little bit. But again
that's it's at a it's at a bit of a
higher level than say value, okays. Valum does have a
(17:43):
calming effect you start to get in an adavan, it's
a it's got a bit more of a punch to it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
So one thirty in the morning, lays down, asked for drugs.
Doctor Murray gives him valium. Half hour later, lords apam.
An hour goes by and Michael Jackson again continues to
call out, and this time he has given additional sedative medication.
I'm gonna have to wait for you to break out
the uh the talk screen in the autopsy report, Joe,
(18:13):
because I don't know exactly what he was given then
at three o'clock, but he was administered something two hours later,
more lauras a PAM, seven p thirty midazolum. Yes, for said, Okay,
he gets that between one thirty and seven thirty. We're
(18:33):
talking during a six hour period of time. Joe Vallium,
laurasa PAM twice, additional sedative medication and then mid aolam.
And again, remember this is administered because he can't sleep. Now,
this has been something he's been treated before. He's gone
to the hospital before because he couldn't sleep. But Joe,
(18:55):
this is a lot of medication over a very free
period of time for a man who is five foot
nine and one hundred and thirty six pounds.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Yeah, it's a hell of a med looad to put
onto somebody. And we've talked about kind of in the
past on other cases, you know, kind of the smaller
you are. And it makes sense, right when you start
to put this level of medication into a system, there's
only so much that your system can handle. And also
(19:25):
it's important to remember what you just said, this is
not new territory, all right, So when he has a
level of resistance, probably because I'll give you for instance, okay,
versaid in particular, Ver said, most of the time it's
(19:47):
a benzodiazepine which falls into the same family as adavan
and valume, and these were things, but versaid itself, this
is the medication. Like for any of our friends out there.
If you've ever been through surgery, right, uh, and you're
gonna go under anesthesia right when they first put your
line in, you know, when they've got you in the
(20:08):
in the pre op area, you know, and you're you're
laying there and you're all tense and everything, they put
the line in your IV line. Many times the nurse
will come in and they'll push versaid. And the thing
about versaid is that it puts you into this almost
like dream like state, you know, and it's like everything
(20:31):
is cool, man. You know, I'm I'm ready to rock
and roll. Whatever you're gonna do to me. Uh yeah,
let's you know, let's sally forth and get the surgery done.
You're not seeing there. Oh my god, they're gonna give me.
You know, I'm gonna go through surgery. And so versaid
in and of itself is very powerful, and it's it's
generally it's a precursor to the actual anesthesia. Dave. When
(20:54):
I see this and I see this list of drugs.
First off, if if you're taking benzos all right already
to kind of chill you out, This is not something
that would be like recommended, like if you were going
in for surgery, right, they would say, you don't, you
(21:15):
need to forego the benzos. You know, if you're being
prescribed this, you've got anxiety disorder, you're coming in the
next morning, trust me, will take And this is what
they always say, trust me, if you've got anxiety, we're
going to take care of you, you know when you
get here. And you kind of got to lean into
that because what you're creating here is this kind of
toxic stew, if you will, okay, And everything leads back
(21:39):
to how it impacts your ability to breathe, your ability
the ability of your heart to function correctly. And so
now he's at a point in this timeline where they're
pushing ver said on him okay, And just that and
that alone would give any death investigator, any forensic theologists pause.
(22:01):
It would certainly give any anesthesiologists out there pause. You know,
they're taking a look at this and saying, my lord,
look at the drug wagon here. You know, that was
kind of dragon behind him, and this was this had
become kind of a norm for him, Dave.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
And that's the part that is very.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
It's it's very sad because he's under the care of
a doctor Conrad Murray. And now I want to get
to what comes next. After the entire night of medication,
which again had been an ongoing thing, at seven point thirty,
he gets doctor Conrad Murray administers more drugs. But that
(22:39):
doesn't do it. Now, Michael Jackson has been attempting to
sleep since one thirty in the morning. He's been given
a lot of drugs over several hours. I mean he's
and yet at ten forty in the morning, Joe Conrad Murray,
doctor Conrad Murray administer's propofaal. Now, before we go any further,
(23:03):
please tell us what propofol is, what it's used were usually,
because having propofol in a residence not a hospital is
not only unusual, it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
No, it's absolutely positively bananas. All right, I cannot describe
to you how out of the norm. As a matter
of fact, let me give you let me kind of
frame this out for you, okay, Because the La County
Corner did a remarkable job. They actually went out Dave
(23:41):
dig this, the chief medical examiner went out and got
a consultation, deputized an antithesiologist. Okay, as you know, like
a deputy corner for a period of time, brought him
on and they've probably consulted with this person before.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I think waitea deputized mm hm temporarily this case, like.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, it's a deputy deputy medical examiner.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Is that a common thing?
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Yeah, it can be, particularly if you've got consultants on
the staff that you regularly used, and we've had, I
know in New Orleans we had deputy deputy corners that
were psychiatrists, deputy corners that were surgeons, you know, in
a consultation. In that way, they are working under the
authority of the corner and so they're called to testify.
(24:38):
You know, they have that legitimacy. You know, it kind
of drives the scene. But went out and got a
consult from this anteshesiologist. And listen to what I'm about
to say, very very carefully, because not only did the
antithesiologists in this case, they give their breakdown and they're
(24:59):
a opinion relative to the meds that were administered. There
was nowhere in the literature nowhere in the scientific literature
where the antithesiologists could find a reference for people that
had been administered this medication in a therapeutic setting that
(25:27):
happened to be in a private residence. Did you know
that the only time, the only reference they could find
at that particular time, back in two thousand and nine,
you know, when they're working this case up was an
od where somebody had gotten their hands on it and
used it in an inappropriate manner, you know, in a private,
(25:51):
private setting. This is this is something that is so
is so abnormal relative to normal practice of medicaid administering medication.
One more thing, this doctor that which again is kind
(26:11):
of a world that you and I can't really imagine.
You imagine having a doctor there at your beck and
call and you're saying, I can't sleep. And literally the doctor.
We're not talking about like a nurse's aide, you know,
God bless nurses aids, you know, CNA's. We're not talking
about an LPN. We're not talking about an RN. We're
talking about an MD. He's there, Hey, doc, I can't sleep.
(26:35):
This isn't a completely different level, all right, And this
guy is I think at best a cardiologists. No insult cardiologists.
He is a surgeon, though he's certainly not an anesthesiologist.
He's got access to propofol because he is a physician.
But just because you have access to it doesn't mean
(26:56):
that you know how to administer it. And so when
caesiologists saw this, and I can only imagine the wheels
turning in this person's mind as they're analyzing the scene
and what has been brought before them by the corner.
This is it's such an odd ball just, you know,
for a moment, just take out the factor that this
(27:18):
is Michael Jackson. If this was any other case, anes
caesiologists would be there saying, oh my lord, this is
the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. You know who
does this?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (27:30):
Propofol used to knock somebody out for a surgical procedure.
Had I was telling Joe earlier, I had the CT
mileogram done from my neck and they were using propofol
to knock me out. They called it the magical milk.
I think is what the guy told me, big burly
guy standing in front of me, Joe. He puts a
towel on his shoulder, on his chest like that and
(27:51):
He goes, hey, man, why don't you just lay your
head downe And I'm like why he goes, as soon
as we start this, you're going to be out. He goes,
I'll bet you a hundred bucks you're not going to
make it to ninety five back from one hundred. Well,
I knew a guy that big. First of all, he
knows what he's talking about. I'm not betting, you know,
at a loss. I got it to ninety seven, I think,
and I was gone, just boom. And it keeps you
(28:12):
like that until they turn it off, right Joe, Yeah,
it does.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
And it has to be and it has to be
administered in a very particular way regarding from a therapeutic standpoint,
because when you're in this environment and you have your
minister things like this, and I talked about how it
impacts the lungs in the heart. Guess what you have
(28:39):
to have there. You have to have the ability to
like at your you know, at your fingertips. You have
to have equipment that will aid in helping someone breathe. Okay,
that wasn't there. As a matter of fact, they had
an O two canister that was there, you know, kind
(29:01):
of the oxygen that you see, thing was empty, all right,
and none of the appropriate things were around to support
this drug. And I'm glad that you mentioned what was
the reference you made to milk, just to say.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Oh, yeah, the magical milk as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
The magical milk. So we've heard this over the years,
haven't we. You know, because the statement that Jackson had
allegedly made, and this is very insightful, he said, more milk,
more milk. Now I don't know the provenance of that
(29:40):
statement necessarily, okay, But first off, if you've ever been
to surgery and they're a ministering anesthesia, okay, with procofol
it is it is milk like, it's very viscous, it's thick.
When you see it, you do look at it and
you think this, you know, this looks like something I
put over myself cereal. Okay, it's very milky in appearance.
(30:03):
And the fact that Jackson has allegedly made this comment,
you know, more milk, that gives you an idea that
he is familiar, you know, with the drug, that this
is something that is in his life regularly, because he's
not saying, you know, I need to be anesthetized, you know,
(30:28):
I need to be put to sleep, not in a
lethal manner. By the way. We're not talking about like
an animal shelter here to kill shelter. We're talking about
a man that's saying, I need more milk because that's
gonna help me sleep. The fact that he would be
(30:49):
so used to this, and the fact that he's using
this name that's associated with this drug is kind of shocking.
So when you're looking at this from an investigative standpoint
and how frequently this may have been administered to him,
that familiarity rings through. And it also because you know,
(31:11):
Michael Jackson on his own could not go or you know,
have some you know, some person that works for him
just run down to the local Walgreens or CVS and say, hey,
you know, give me a couple of bals of propofol.
All right, You're going to have to have a physician
that does this, that facilitates this, and that's that's really
(31:31):
one of the most terrifying things about this day. So,
brother Dave, you know, we were talking about propofol just
a moment ago and what exactly happened at ten forty.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
Well, and this is the part that still to this day,
I don't know the answer. I'm hoping you can shed
some light on it. Okay, when doctor Conrad Murray had
been administering medication documented since one thirty in the morning,
when Michael Jackson first laid down. Now we're at ten
forty in the morning, nine hours later, Joe, and he's
(32:15):
now going to give him the propofol. And this is
not the first time. I mean, propofol has become a
regular part of Michael Jackson's going to sleep routine so
much so, according to this comes back from information we
find out later on, it was a nightly ritual almost
(32:35):
certainly more than twenty.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Times a month.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
And the reason this hits me wrong is ten forty
in the morning after a night Why did he wait
so long instead of giving all these other drugs, and
that's a lot of drugs to give one person during
that time period. Why did he just give him the
propofol at one thirty in the morning.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I don't know. You go back to drug resistance. I
think Dave and this guy being a physician, he should
have retrospectively, you know, would it could have, should have,
but just at a baseline, you should have an understanding
as a practicing physician who, by the way, was a
licensed instead of California.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
And Texas and Nevada. Joe.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Yeah, So you've got these states that have recognized him
as a practitioner. Right, he should know better. He's had
medical training up to the point where the state recognizes
and he's a practitioner. Right, So what does that say? Right?
You can't necessarily judge the character of a person just
because they've passed some boards or gotten licensure or whatever
(33:40):
the case might be. But back to your point, when
we think about all of the benzos that had been
previously introduced into Jackson's system, First off, there's not enough
time to metabolize all that stuff because it's still floating,
floating around in his system. As a matter of fact,
I'll give you kind of an insight, like, when Jackson's
(34:02):
autopsy has performed, they actually find bits of drugs in
his stomach. Okay, so it's co mingled with it's kind
of a I think it's like I can't remember the
exact measurements off the top of my head, but there
was liquid in his stomach. It's kind of a brown
tan liquid, which you see many times when you open
(34:23):
the stomach and there are pill fragments. And yes, we
can appreciate pill fragments in the stomach because they're resistant
to break down. You know how we talked about things
like time release tablets and all those sorts of things. Well,
there's a way that they can kind of manufacture that
from a promacological standpoint. But there were still pill fragments
(34:43):
in his stomach, so we know that the process of
getting all of this stuff from ramped up into his
system had not completed yet, you know, because the stuff's
being absorbed through his stomach. But yet he still got
these meds in his system. And these are kind of
like building blocks or steps, if you will. Well, as
(35:04):
it turns out, these are steps toward death because he's
having to deal with this particular preexistent benzo load. And
then you take propofol and you introduced that into system
as well, and it's a recipe for disaster day.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Well, and that's why I don't understand, Joe, is that
all this time basically wasted on other drugs, making it
and weakening his health in the process before administering the propofol.
But one quick thing, Joe Michael Jackson was injured in
that pepsi commercial shoot in the early eighties.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
It was not It was not covered the way it
would be now.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
His his damage was bad, His scouts was very burned,
and it caused him to take pain medication for an
extended period of time to the point where he became
dependent on the pills the medication. Would dependence on pain
medication have an impact on how valium and some of
(36:09):
these other drugs would impact Michael Jackson at the time
of Yeah, if.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
You're if you're talking about like opiate based stuff, Yeah,
you know, kind of numb the pain. And it also
it also goes goes through another barrier as well, Right,
So when an individual has a history of taking pain
meds and they know the results from that, like if
I take this, I will at least momentarily feel better,
(36:37):
all right, So I think personally that it makes you
it it opens up the door to other things, like
when you think about taking all these anti anxiety medications,
which benzos typically are, that door is open to you
as well. And you know, he's kind of working his
(37:01):
way through this kind of milky existence, no pun intended.
You know that that he's been living living this since
the eighty fourth thing we also have to consider that
he's he's got some orthopedic problems as well. I mean,
let's just think about him dancing, right, he's got back problems. Uh,
(37:22):
the you know, all the gyrations and the spinning and
all that stuff that he does as a professional performer.
That creates problems. Well from a physical standpoint where you're
going to be in pain. You know, I'm not saying
that he's like an NFL player, but we all know
that with everybody that's engaged in any kind of any
(37:44):
kind of physical activity and you do it for a
protracted time, your joints, everything else is going to be
impacted by that. It's just to what degree. So and
this is kind of, you know, it's kind of the
sad story that you continue to hear about people in entertainment.
And it's not a news story, right. There are very
(38:05):
few people and Dave, you've been around more famous people
than I certainly have a particular music industry and all that.
And I can bet you dollars to donuts most of
these people don't have what used to be called well
you have a lot of people around you there called
yes men, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll take care
(38:26):
of that. I'll make that happen. I'll make this happen,
that sort of thing. We just want to keep you
happy and all that sort of thing. You got very
few people that ever say no to you, right well,
and so when you're on this trajectory, man, it's lethal, dude.
Speaker 3 (38:37):
Yeah, And sadly that had been Michael Jackson's life. The
only person that ever told him no was Joe, his dad,
and Joe was not there anymore. Michael is making his
own call, and doctor Conrad Murray, as a doctor, should
have been watching out for his patient. But let's get
to this, the propofile at ten forty. Now, according to
doctor Conrad Murray, he remained in the bed room from
(39:01):
ten forty to eleven fifty. This is an important time period, Joe,
and it is the central focus of what became part
of the charging documents against Conrad Murray. A medical emergency
nine to one one was called around eleven fifty AM.
So from ten forty to eleven fifty AM, Michael Jackson
(39:24):
is put under with propofol.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
At eleven to.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Fifty, Conrad Murray notices Michael Jackson is no longer breathing
on his own. He calls nineber one CPR efforts to
begin right away. Staff members are summoned. I mean, everything
happens nine one one people arrive and paramedics on scene
make a number of observances. And when Michael Jackson has
(39:51):
found at twelve twenty six a PM, he's in cardiac arrest,
advanced life saving measures are taken, which what would that
be Joe in this condition.
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, so you know, they they pushed I know, for instance, epinephrine,
which is a stimulant, you know, to try to get
his heart going once again. Uh, they've gone in through
at one point in time, they've gone in through his
femeral artery and inserted a balloon into his a order,
(40:29):
which is the major blood supply vessel in the body,
runs right down our midline. And again that again is
for the purposes of trying to breathe life back into him.
He's got evidence of resuscitation, he's got several fractured ribs
where they were actually doing compressions. That's something that you
(40:49):
commonly see. So there were these as they refer to
the heroic measures that were being taken to try to
revitalize him in some way. And they you know, and
when you have again, I go back, I go back
to this idea of this toxic soup that he's got
in his system. It's really hard, you know, to defeat
(41:11):
that on any level, you know. And some people had said, well,
he's fifty years old. He had a heart attack and
died fifty years old. Hey, if you've got some kind
of predisposition in your family where you've got severe athrosk
history of severe athrist erosis, that sort of thing, maybe
you've got a family history of heart problems. I wasn't
(41:31):
the case here, you know, when they you know, some
people said they just merely want to say, well, he
had a heart attack and died. That's not the case here. Yeah,
his heart stopped beating, but it stopped beating because of
all the meds that he had on board. They his
coronary vessels when they did the dissection on his heart
were clean. Okay, he had no occlusion or and if
(41:54):
there were, they were just like what are called just
these mural streaks, mural like mural on the wall, streaks
on the cornerator vessels. Even when they opened his order,
he just had these kind of streaks on there, you know,
like cholesterol build up, that's there. At orosclerosis, that's there,
but nothing nothing that would say, okay, he had a
(42:18):
blockage in his heart, so immediately you can check that
off the list. You know. Now the lungs are a
little bit heavy, which you expect, you know, if you're
talking about these kind of medications they make the lungs head.
He's got history of pneumonia as well, and I had
a lot of questions about that because if you're predisposed
to pneumonia, and many of us that have had pneumonia,
(42:38):
you realize that once you've had it, it's easier for
you to get it again. Okay, and he has had
pneumonia in the past. I and a lot of people
get pneumonia. But I'm just saying that in and of itself,
because they do make note of that in the autopsy,
that there's evidence that he has had pneumonia, that he
(42:59):
has pneumonia. He's got bronchitis as well that's impacting his
ability to breathe. And then all of a sudden, you know,
you take these bronchial problems that he has, and these
medications are like a bucket of gasoline that you're throwing
on this fire. It's already pre existent, you know, in
(43:22):
his respiratory system. You're really really dancing on the razor's edge.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
Here, Wow, now, Joe.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
When Michael Jackson was transported to the hospital, there is
some discussion over the condition of his body at that time,
but he was declared dead at t twenty six pm.
So to get that timeline down ten forty, propofolo is
administered at eleven to fifty, Conrad Murray says he notices
(43:52):
Michael's not breathing eleven fifty one, call for help, and
it leads to his passing. Now I want to go
to something and I asked you at this because the
first paramedic on scene made a number of comments about
what transpired.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
When they got there, because.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Using propofol at this stage is weird, beyond the pale,
not something anybody's seen before. And the paramedics are not
even aware that's what it is. They don't they don't
know what they're walking into a fifty year old man
in the Holmby Hills in southern California. You know, they're
thinking cardiac arrests too, I'm sure. And when they get
(44:29):
there they find out that this is not what they expected.
It's Michael Jackson. And by the way, they ask Conrad Murray,
how long has this been going on? I want to
make sure I get this right, because, dude, the paramedics,
they don't believe what Conrad Murray is telling them.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Joe. They Conrad Murray.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
Doctor Conrad Murray suggested that this had just happened, this
medical event had just transpired. They arrived fifteen minutes after
the nine one one called Joe and just happened. That
means that this just transpired with a medical doctor on site. Yeah,
And paramedics aren't buying it, and actually said, for the record,
(45:17):
I immediately asked him some information. This is the paramedics speaking.
Immediately asked him some information. What happened? How long has
this been going on? And he told me that it
just happened. This was the patient. To me that it
seemed that he had not just passed away. You realize
what he's saying here. Michael Jackson was dead at the home.
(45:38):
They transported a dead body. Is that common practice, Joe?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
It is to a certain degree. You know that I've
always been fascinated by this dynamic that happens in emergency medicine,
and I've seen it played out. You see it play
out with children many time. God bless our paramedics. But
sometimes you know, when you, for instance, you have they're
(46:03):
not immune to this. So if you have a child
that's seen, and you know the child is gone, you'll
still see them run what's called code and you know
they're they're talking about ACLS protocol here, which is the
top level of life saving all right. And so if
you work in the emergency room, I see you, if
you're an your physician, your nurse, you have to be
(46:23):
a CLS certified, right, And it's a rather rigorous program
to go through, and they understand what mets to administer,
you know, when to trust, to stimulate the heart, you know,
all these sorts of things because it's very complex. And
when they would have seen him, you know, at that
(46:45):
moment time, they would have noted that he may have
been culled to the touch. But we're talking about Michael Jackson.
So they're going to go through as many heroic measures
as they possibly can to try to bring him back,
if they can, to pull him away from the edge,
But at that point in time, he may have already
(47:07):
been over the edge, you know, his you know, even
you know, the thing about it is is that his
pupils were fixed and dilated and completely unresponsive at all. So,
you know, one of the things we look for, and
you know, the seven cardinal signs of death. We need
to do a whole episode of seven cardinal signs. Yeah,
(47:31):
the seven cardinal signs. One of the things we look
for is non reactive pupils. All right, medical personnel notice anyway,
but when we're trying to assess death. As death investigators,
I always want to make sure that the person I'm
standing over is in fact dead, because there are stories
and there are cases out there where the person was
in fact not dead. So that's one of the seven
(47:52):
cardinal signs of death. And so his pupils are fixed
and dilated, he's non responsive. They probably did external rub
on him, anything else, any kind of stimulus they could
to get him to react, but yet it was to
no avail. So they start to run this code. They're
going through the protocols. You know, they're pushing medications, they're
(48:14):
trying as many heroic measures as they can. But you know,
by the time by the time he he's gotten into
the emergency room, he was essentially pronounced dead. I think
at like four I think it's fourteen, twenty six hours
on the twenty fifth, I think, or twenty sixth, he was.
(48:37):
He was deceased at that moment in time. There was
nothing else they could do for him. And as you
know from my perspective, you know, you look at it.
If you look at it, it's like, yeah, no kidding,
there's nothing you could have done for him because the medications,
you know, because as tiny as he was, all right,
(49:01):
if you took those medications and applied those to me,
I'd be a dead man. I mean I really would.
But you know, with this resistance that's built up. One
of the remarks that I was really shocked by, the
amtesthesiologist actually mentions this in their consult. They talk about
(49:24):
that there are vials vials dave of propofol. They're around
the room. Yeah, they're there, you know, like they're physically
there and just lying about. You know, that could be
drawn up. And I know one of the big questions
that people have are is probably well, how was this administered?
(49:47):
You know, was this given as a direct injection?
Speaker 3 (49:50):
And Joe, I got to ask you, because I did
not realize this was a thing until I started prepping this,
I didn't realize the people thought and that there is
a real theory that Michael Jackson could have administered propofol
to himself and that that is what led to his death.
Speaker 2 (50:08):
You can dispel that, right.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
Oh yeah, yeah, I can very easily. As a matter
of fact, he had he had an indwelling port that
was that had been placed an ivy port that was
placed in his lower left leg. Okay, so just imagine this.
Remember how you you were. You gave a great description
(50:31):
earlier talking about propofol, right when when it's administered, you
couldn't get to.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
I couldn't make it in ninety seven to ninety seven,
started one, ninety nine, ninety eight.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
I think I got you beat. Last time I did
ninety five. Oh wow, Well we'll have to check check
on one another in the future anyway. So what it
would have if this was self administered, what this would
have required for him to do is first draw up
the medication, right, and he's got a check right, and
then bend ford in the bed, seek out this port
(51:07):
that's on his left leg, hit center mass on this port,
push the drug all right, and then he would have
he would you know, essentially fall back and go to sleep,
right right, That's what you would think would happen. But
you take that even more evidence of the fact he
(51:28):
couldn't do it. If you've got this, these numbers of
benzos in your system, I'll put to you this away.
Would you want to give him a set of car keys?
Oh my god, those benzos that he had in the system. No.
I mean, he might not can sleep, but I guarantee
you his gait is certainly not going to be steady.
If he's you know, everything is kind of this. You know,
(51:53):
it's not he's not hallucinating, but he's in this kind
of weird state. You know, in his brain the motor
functions are slow down significantly. And this is kind of
a delicate thing that you have to do. First off,
you're having to take the measurement on the dosage that
you're going to apply to yourself, and then hit this
spot where someone has set up an IV in his leg.
(52:16):
I don't think, Michael Jackson, maybe I'm missing something. I
don't think that he had ever set up an IV
before sight, you know, in his leg, which, by the bye,
just so folks understand, this is one of the most
difficult spots to start an IV. It takes work in
(52:38):
order to do it. It's not like doing it, you know,
in the arm, in the back of the hand, or
the crook of the arm, the antacubable fossa, it's not
like that. The leg is much more difficult, in my opinion,
And I don't think he did that, Dave, that this
goes to because you know, at the end of the day,
this is a homicide. This is a homicide, k And
(53:00):
so every bit of this is has evidentiary value, right,
And you.
Speaker 3 (53:05):
Brought it up. Why you said that, because it is
a homicide. The one thing that pains me now is
the final comment from the paramedic who was talking about
you know that this was a patient to me that
it seemed that he had not just passed away, that
some time had gone before we were notified. That's frustrating.
(53:30):
Part number one. Part number two is what the paramedics
live with to this day. Joe reflecting on this call.
This is a quote reflecting on this call. In the
days of the weeks the months afterwards. One of the
greatest regrets that all of us had was that we
had not been called sooner.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
Yeah, yeah, you know why they weren't called sooner. In
my humble opinion, Conrad knew he was doing wrong. Oh yeah,
he And I'm sure that he went into panic mode
because this runs contrary to everything that he should have
(54:11):
been taught as a physician, or maybe he was taught.
And maybe the fact that he's now in this orbit,
this celebrity orbit, and he's willing to facilitate anything from
Michael Jackson, a fifty year old man. He's willing to
do it because it's Michael Jackson, right. He knew better,
(54:34):
And I think that probably panic set in. Maybe he
tried to do the heroics all on his own, thinking
that somehow he could pull him back from the edge,
and by the you know, by the time paramedics rolled in, Dave,
it was just it was too late. It was too late,
(54:55):
you know. The The thing about it is is that
with this physician administering these medications, the meds become weaponized. Now,
whether or not he has in tent or not is
I don't care. You know, you don't have to prove
motive on any level. It's the fact that you took
(55:17):
these steps. And I think he's tell me what he's
convicted again was convicted.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Of I remember this happens.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Michael Jackson dies June twenty sixth of two thousand and nine.
Doctor Conrad Murray was charged and was convicted by a
jury of involuntary manslaughter on November seventh, twenty eleven. The
maximum possible sentence for involuntary manslaughter four years in the
(55:44):
County Jail in Los Angeles. Conrad Murray, doctor Murray served
one year eleven months of that sentence due to good behavior.
He was released his Oh, by the way, while he
was in the jail, and we have talked to that
jail cell a lot in the last weeks on other
shows Joe, because of the individuals who are being kept
(56:07):
there at the Metropolitan Jail in Los Angeles not a
great place. But for doctor Conrad Murray, Joe, he was
kept in a solo cell. He had his own TV
and he had his own cell phone the entire time
he was in jail. One year and eleven months later
he gets released. He never gets his doctor's license, his
medical license to practice in California, Texas or Nevada doesn't matter.
(56:32):
He goes to his home country, Trinidad and Tobago becomes
gets his medical license. I don't know if he had
one there before, but he has one now and he
opened up a medical clinic.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
Wow. So if you're vacationing, by the.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
Way, medical clinic our medical institute rather DCM Medical Institute,
Trinidad and Tobago, doctor, you.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
Strongly enough to be aware, all right. But yeah, I mean,
and this is a very sad chapter. It's a sad
chapter in the sense that you know, we we think
we know celebrities, you know, we think we know know
their lives because of the things that we see, you know,
(57:22):
them demonstrating out in public, and you really don't. You
don't know what's going on behind the scenes, because after all,
it is entertainment, right there is there is kind of
a false front, you know, like when you walk onto
a Hollywood studio. You know, you go through and there
(57:45):
are all these towns that they've created storefronts, if you will,
but there's nothing behind it. It's kind of vacuous. Michael
Jackson had an amazing life relative to the music that
he created and the way he entertained is. But just
(58:05):
because you see something that is portrayed maybe in your mind,
is heroic on the outside, doesn't mean that there's not
darkness in dwelling behind the scenes. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan
and this is body Bags
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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