05-22-24 Interview - Common Sense Institute Fellow Kelly Brough on a Recent RTD Report

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Speaking of information, I am joinedin the studio now by a Common Sense
Institute fellow, Kelly Bruff, whohas worked with two others, DJ Summers
and Eric gam to create a reportcalled Fork in the Railroad RTD's Ridership Dilemma,
where they did a deep dive onRTD, the budget, the ridership,

(00:22):
the expectations. Have those expectations beenmet? Just as we are about
to pour another crapload of money intomore trains, lightrail, whatever that nobody
wants. I mean, I'm justgonna they didn't say that. I'm just
going to say that. But Kelly, welcome back to the show. It's
good to be here. Mandy.Well, you know, tell me a

(00:42):
little bit about how this report cameabout. What inspired this report? And
I am surprised by nothing in thisreport, nothing, not one thing.
But how did this report come about? Well, we were talking about could
we study in this space of kindof urban day development, urban economic activity,

(01:03):
and one of the fundamental pieces ofit is transportation and what does it
look like? And so we prettyquickly said it might be worthwhile to look
at how are we doing with ourtransportation system and is it delivering a return
on the investment that we've made asresidents of the Regional Transportation District. So
that's what we did. We lookedat the numbers, and the numbers are

(01:26):
ugly well, and I don't knowif you did this in the full report.
I just looked over the key findingsand your history. Do we know
how the numbers that were sold tothe voters to bring in light rail,
how they compare to the actual numbers. Did you dig into those specific numbers?

(01:46):
Yeah, I mean, well,ridership has really dropped and we'll talk
more about that because of the pandemic. But certainly we expected to be able
to build this system for less thanit's cost us to build it, and
we ran into some glitches that youknow, we're not RTD's fault. The
two thousand and nine, the GreatRecession, you know, really impacted their

(02:07):
revenue collections and ability to build thesystem. So the system hasn't been built
out yet and where we've spent significantlymore than we expected. But for me,
this was really about listen, whetheryou thought we should build this system
where we shouldn't. We decided asvoters we wanted to do it right.
So I really wanted to ask thequestion how do we maximize the return we're

(02:29):
getting for what we've built. Andwhat is really clear is the number one
measure here is are people using it? Yeah? And if we're not using
it, we're not maximizing. Andboy, we are not using compared to
other cities. Randal o'tool from theIndependence Institute I was. I read a
column by him several months ago now, and he said that ridership, the
number of people as a percentage ofpeople who use mass transit, has not

(02:53):
changed at all since the advent oflight rail and everything else we've done.
It's like four points when four pointfour percent for the metro, So four
point four percent of us are usingit on a regular basis. Yeah,
I mean. So one of theways we looked at this is what's the
percentage of revenue URTD gets from faircollections? Right? And in January of

(03:15):
twenty four it was four point fourpercent. That said in twenty eleven it
was twenty one point six percent.That was our high mark. You know,
we had a law on the booksin Colorado that required thirty percent of
our TD's revenue, Oh my god, to come from fair collections. We've
never met that. But other citiesdo much better even after COVID with the

(03:38):
return and so we spent a lotof time trying to figure out, Okay,
why are people not on it,what are the barriers, and then
making some recommendations around how we couldaddress those barriers. I do think that
we have a significant issue in DenverBoulder, Colorado Springs because we do have
a highly educated workforce that are ableto stay home, right we have our

(04:00):
jobs are easily made remote, andso a lot of people have not come
back to the office. So whatkind of impact have we seen just you
know, from pre COVID to nowin terms of ridership. Yeah, we
well, we were seeing drops inridership even before COVID, we were starting
to see a decline, but wesaw massive declines after COVID. You know,

(04:21):
we were dropping from fifteen percent incollections of fairs to cover the operations
at RTD to down to four percent. Now that said, I think a
big part of this about half ofour workforce. By the way, our
jobs you have to come in for, right, and so while we do
have, you know, like yousaid, Mandy, an educated workforce who

(04:41):
probably has some more flexibility than otherregions, it's we're still nowhere near the
kind of numbers you'd expect to see. And what really struck us is how
often when we were doing our interviewspeople talked about not feeling safe. Yeah,
and so we pulled the data,and you know, we looked at
two sources of data. RTD asa police force, we looked at their
data, and we looked at theColorado Bureau of Investigation, and it tells

(05:04):
two different stories. We probably haveto get a little more consistent on our
data, but I'm going to tellyou there's a reason you don't feel safe.
Crime has significantly gone up, buteven if it was perfectly safe,
we have not addressed people's perception ofsafety, and I think that's just as
important. The good news is thereis no question RTDs committed to addressing this

(05:27):
issue and working hard to do it. They've increased their police force significantly,
and I think coordination with local policedepartments and removing some of the barriers that
allow people to kind of cross theline into RTD versus the district the city
therein, those kind of things mighthelp improve safety as well, and RTD's

(05:47):
doing that. I got an emailfrom a listener maybe two weeks ago,
maybe ten days ago, that saidhis car was in the shop. So
we hopped on his bike, rodedown to lightrail, hopped on the train
and there was someone smoking ventanel inthere with him, and he said,
this is what I'm supposed to doon a daily basis, So that kind
of stuff has to be addressed superaggressively. And you know, to your

(06:10):
point about changing the perception of people, I would honestly say, if I'm
RTD, this is what I woulddo. Every time I arrested someone for
something. I would put out apress release. I would talk about the
arrests that are being made, thetrouble that's being stopped. I would continually
promote the fact that that police forceis so much bigger, and and yet

(06:30):
they seem to almost want to goin the other direction and say no,
no, no, everything's fine,when we all know it's not. It's
it's just a it's a pr strategicythat I just find baffling. You know,
tell me about when people are gettingarrested, I'm gonna feel better about
things. Yeah, I mean,I do think we're gonna have to take
this one head on. And Ialso think the more of us that are

(06:53):
on it. It's safer you feel, even if there's activity happening where you're
like, well, if that shouldn'tbe happening. If there's ten or twenty
more of me sitting there, Idon't feel quite as at risk as when
I'm the only person in that carwith other people who The New York subway
system is a perfect example, Yeah, because there's crazy stuff happened on subway
trains every day all the time.But New Yorkers don't have the perception of

(07:15):
I'm going to get killed if Iget on the subway because they do I'm
not alone, Yeah, exactly.It's strengthen numbers, yeah, yeah,
and so I think that is partof it too. So when we talk
about RTD's budget, the budget hasgone up as ridership has gone down.
Could you guys figure out why thatschism is happening. Let's take out the
security portion, because they did justincrease the budget for the RTD police,

(07:38):
which is necessary. But where elseis their excessive growth? Yeah? I
mean, well, this is toughbecause we've had a lot of growth in
the budget in the last few years, and trying to understand, you know,
where it's going. What you realizeis whether there's one person on that
bus or on that train, thecosts don't really change. And so this

(08:01):
is really where not having writers isjust, you know, a terribly bad
strategy because costs don't go down,and like everybody else, RTD has experienced
increases. We are we compared totwenty two other metros who have transportation systems
train systems, and here's what's interesting. We're in the top half in terms

(08:24):
of operational efficiency. So we coulddo better, but we're not devastatingly bad.
I think part of the challenge inRTD is we are a massively large
geographic area and I think one ofthe things we could do is get clearer
on what the local government does fortransportation and what RTD does. And I
think there's too big of a disconnectbetween our local governments, our mayors and

(08:46):
city councils, decisions they're making,and that RTD board where I just don't
think the communication is as strong.I've met with mayors all over this region
who would say it has to beimprove the coordination, and you know this
isn't in our report, but it'sfrom me personally. I think thinking about
the governing structure for our td thatallows for those local governments to have direct

(09:11):
responsibility and accountability for the decisions ofrepresentation. Yes, because the decisions.
I think that's I mean, wejust saw this in the last legislative session.
A big old land use package wentthrough the legislature and in a way
that I don't think has ever beendone in Colorado because Governor Polis is really
focused like a laser in increasing densityaround transit corridors. But what we've heard,

(09:35):
and what I've heard from multiple mayorsand city council members is for their
community, it doesn't make sense right, So they don't feel like they have
a say in this. You feellike it's being inflicted upon them instead of
how can we partner with you tomake this work for our citizens? Yeah,
I mean most I think most citygovernments would tell you there is committed
to density around those transit stations andwe have to do it. We know

(10:00):
this will increase ridership. It makesit the easy choice. But we also
have some laws that we don't buildcondos right this state because of liability issues,
and you know, hey, listen, you need some for sale product
around those as well. So Ithink we got to fix some of those
issues to allow that development and helpsupport those local governments and getting it done.

(10:20):
So what did you did you guyscome up with any suggested solutions specifically
for RTD. Yeah, first wesaid, let's get our story straight on
public safety, and then let's getreally clear on strategies of how we're going
to improve safety. And let's oneof the things that really struck me is
you see different levels of ridership indifferent parts of our region, which really

(10:41):
highlight you've got to have different strategiesin different parts of our region to get
people on the train. In someplaces, Loan Tree piloted. You know,
could we have an on call whereyou can call somebody to pick you
up and take you to the train. Those kind of pilots are critical,
and in South Denver metro area theyare so prepared to run pilots and to

(11:03):
test new ideas. But often ifwe can't do it system wide, we're
less likely to do it. Ithink we got to blow out pilots all
over the place, trying new ideasand letting people run as fast as they
can. One of my big issueswith RTD is that they don't seem to
be responsive to the kind of surgeridership that people like me are more likely.

(11:26):
I'm going to hop on RTD togo to a football game, or
I'm gonna go to a baseball game. But if I want to hop on
RTD to go to a concert atball Arena, which would be incredibly convenient
because it's right there, there's onlyone train running at night after the concerts
out, So it's like, inmy mind, it would seem like there
would be an opportunity there to makeit more convenient for people to ride on
those one offs, because then itputs that habit in your system, like

(11:50):
it puts you in the mindset of, oh, I've got to go downtown.
I don't want to sit in traffic. I'm just going to take the
train because it's easier, instead ofam I going to be able to get
home without waiting an hour because thefirst train was totally full, which is
the last time I took the trainto a concert. Yeah. I think
that's such a good point that thatis similar to another recommendation, and that

(12:11):
is let's keep it free for everyhigh school and college kid in this region,
because you start to form the behaviorand habit of taking the train,
and that's that's exactly it. Youhave to you have to make it doable.
And I don't care. It seemsso stupid to say some people are
afraid of doing something they don't understandright the first time you go. And

(12:33):
I personally despise the ticketing system withthe fire of a thousand suns, like
I hate that so much. Whycan't we have an app? Why can't
I just do it on my phone? Why do I You can't now?
Oh I can't see. No onetold me that. I know. That's
the other thing, though, Ithink it's a barrier even. Why don't
we make it super cheap for everyemployer, public, private, or nonprofit

(12:58):
to buy a pass for their employeesso you just don't even have to worry
about it, right, we alljust have passes and we move away from
this kind of How do I pullit down? What is my fare?
Am I in zone one? Right? Or a treat? Who knows?
And listen, the further out youare, the more we want you on
that train, and the more expensiveit is. It's cheaper for me to

(13:20):
drive downtown, pay for parking,and then drive home than it is for
four people to go from the furtheststop south to downtown. That's not At
what point do you say this doesn'tmake economic sense? And so if we
all just had passes, you'd belike, oh, this is the easy,
cheap option for me now. Butyou have to help people get over
that hurdle of being afraid of thesystem, like not understanding the system and

(13:43):
then getting on the train and realizing, Okay, this is pretty cool.
But I think I've got a lotof comments on the text line and I'd
like to share some of those withyou, Mandy. I drive for Uber
and Lyft. I pick people uptwo to three times per week at one
of the light rail stops because someoneon there is smoking something that every one
of my customers says they smells likerubber burning. So they're getting off the

(14:05):
train calling an Uber or Lyft becausethey don't want to be on the train
with someone smoking drugs. That's thesafety issue. Yeah, yeah, we
don't use it. It's slow andfaster to drive. Plus we live in
Castle Rock and have to pay forparking at the RTD station. I'm like
the RidgeGate station, you don't pay. You don't have to pay for parking

(14:26):
there. I don't think so,I never have and that's the Furthest South
station as of right now. Butconvenience wise, RTD was the first in
the nation to partner with Uber.You can purchase your fare on the Uber
app. Say, I didn't knowany of this, didn't know a single
bit of it, but it highlightsMandy right, that kind of knowledge that

(14:48):
we're making it easier to be ableto access the train or the bus needs
to get out. Well, thisone said, My fiance stopped writing the
G line daily to work because securitywasn't sufficient. My son and another guy
got assaulted by a homeless guy witha knife on the W line. Yeah,
so these are huge issues. Thesafety issues are huge. Listen.

(15:13):
There was an article a month agoor so about people not wanting to become
drivers. Listen, if you can'tpay someone to be on those buses and
trains, you could imagine the restof us are not going to choose it.
And so that safety issue is real, and I think we got to
take it head on if we're reallygoing to change our habits. I'm wondering

(15:35):
about, did you guys dig intoany of the projected lines, the Longmont
Boulder line that still hasn't been builtyet. We talked to someone and I
can't remember who it was, totell you the truth, and talked about
the fact that from the Longmont lineyou would have to go long Want to
Boulder Boulder to Union Station and thencatch the A line to the airport.

(15:56):
That is not convenient convenience. That'sterrible, you know, now if we
had a bus that went straight fromLongmont to the airport. That This is
my issue, and this is notjust about Denver's light rail system. This
is about light rail across the country. Because they never perform the way they
are promised to perform. But ifwe invested a fraction of that money in

(16:18):
dedicated lanes and used buses to goeverywhere we needed to go. First of
all, they're super flexible. Soif you have a giant new neighborhood that
gets built up over here while anotherneighborhood is into climb, you can shift
that usage. Why can't we moveto a better, more flexible system.
What is it about the sort ofI don't know, glow of light rail

(16:40):
that sucks people in? Yeah,we do like something about the train itself.
That said, probably one of thehighest ranked routes was the bus that
runs from Boulder to Denver. Peopleloved it, and Urt Deal tell you
that it is extremely challenging for themto figure out how to build out the

(17:02):
rest of the system financially. Therehas been some discussion about as we expand
into additional train lines, could youput that route in some of those strategies
and some of that funding for theothers. Listen, I think we got
to figure out how do I getyou on that train, what does it
take, what does it look like, how do I make it the easy

(17:22):
choice? And how what do youdo when you get off the train.
That's the other big problem. Yeah, because we don't have a vibrant bus
system. Yeah right, we don'thave. If you get off at Union
Station or you need to be anEast Denver downtown Denver, it's not a
convenient option to hop on buses.And I just had the experience of being
in Switzerland, where the trains aremagnificent, absolutely magnificent, But when you

(17:45):
get off the train, you havemultiple mass transit options to get you where
you want to go, and theyall run consistently all the time. So
if you're waiting, you're waiting nomore. Than fifteen minutes. Yeah,
you don't have that. Yeah.Well, and this is where I feel
like technology can really assist us,like Uber and Lyft and you know,

(18:06):
choices that we never had when wewere building this system, and that first
and last mile, that's where ourlocal governments really can step in and help
shape what does it look like toget you from these main routes to the
specific place you're going with ease.Yeah. Kelly Bruff is with the Common
Sense Institute as a fellow now,and this report is very, very good.

(18:27):
If you don't read anything else,just go read the key findings.
It's disheartening. But here's the thing. We've got this system right. It
already exists, so the fact thatit's failing is just causing the taxpayers more
and more and more money. Soto your point, Kelly, I would
love it if they could clean upthe trains because I've been here eleven years

(18:48):
now, and when I first gothere the trains, I was like,
this is great, this is fantastic. Hopping on at Ridgegates Station, riding
up to go to a baseball game, it was glorious. Now I would
not want my fourteen year old,fifteen year old or on the train.
Yeah, yeah, as you justturned fifteen, I wouldn't send her on
the train by herself. Yeah youknow, yeah, so you're not any
case. Mandy. You do haveto pay for parking at RidgeGate if you

(19:11):
live out of district. We've beenticket it before for not paying. We
live in Castle Pines. That's weird. How do they know you live out
of district? Doesn't make any senseto me. I'm not questioning you text
her. I'm just saying that isvery different. Bye, Mandy. I
lived in Golden and took the busto the light rail to my office downtown.
I rode the bus all the wayback at night, all the way

(19:33):
down Coalfax. It was super sketchy, but I never really feared for my
safety. The addicts generally weren't aggressivetowards me. I stopped because I did
the math and it was cheaper todrive. And that's another huge problem.
That is and listen, it's youknow, it's getting more challenging. We
all know that the price as gasgoes up, people look for other alternatives.

(19:56):
As the price of parking goes up, people look for other a alternatives.
And then certainly congestion and you know, build investing in this system.
If we can make it work,the return on it is not just for
you and I in terms of ourpocket books books, but our air quality
can improve our you know, theuse of water, how we grow and

(20:18):
develop. If we grow a littlemore densely, we use less water when
we grow that way as a region, all of that has long term benefits
for our region. I hope otherpeople live in high density because I don't
like it. But that's the point, right, Yeah, it's not my
favorite getting all of us in highdensity at different stages in our lives,
even that maybe what we want versuswhat we don't want. Kelly, I

(20:41):
so appreciate your time and great jobon this report. Please thank you.
Give your co writers my compliments aswell. It's very well done and I
think it I hope I hope thatthe RTD board, the city Council,
anybody involved. I hope they takethis seriously. And what I've seen is
a propensity for elected officials to lookat anything that common sense does and decide

(21:06):
it's wrong without actually demonstrating how it'swrong. Instead of saying, this is
a useful piece of information that weshould look at and take take to heart.
So yeah, I appreciate you showingin today. All right, we'll
be right back.