06-05-25 Interview - Matt Crane with Jimmy Sengenberger

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Somebody who testified yesterday in court.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
The second witness.

Speaker 1 (00:03):
He is now the executive director of the Colorado County
Clerk's Association, former clerk of Arapahoe County, a republic, and
he testified as himself. He wasn't representing his organization, but
he joins me now, Matt Crane, welcome.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Back to Kowa.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Hey, Jimmy, good to see you.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good to see you, my friend.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Now, first of all, why were you a participant in
the testimony? Why did you testify yesterday? What is your
relation to all this?

Speaker 3 (00:29):
Sure?

Speaker 4 (00:29):
Well, first of all, I was subpoenaed by Eric Komer's
attorneys to show and testify for two reasons. One because
Eric and I have been friends and I've worked with him,
you know, professionally he worked for Dominion, as you know,
and so from when I became clerk up until you
know when I you know, when I lost in eighteen,

(00:50):
we had worked together on various projects and building out
the new version of the voting system so that we
could make sure it was more auditible, more secure.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
And then also with my.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
Role as executive director of the Callelroado Ninny Clerks Association,
I was able to provide unique perspective on the impact
of the lies of Lindell and what they had on
election officials here in Colorado across the country, what it's
done to undermine voter confidence, those types of things. So
that's why they subpoenaed to bring me in to talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
So one of the things that they were showing in
the trial, and they asked you questions about this, and
this is sort of what Oltman had made a big
stink about, going back to November of twenty twenty, getting
the ball rolling for what Eric Kumer in a number
of lawsuits it's Mike Lindell against Oltman against others is
alleged is defamation. There were a number of these very controversial,

(01:43):
vulgar at times posts, mostly from his private Facebook page.
Sometimes there were a few tweets that he responded to
Trump or to Milania Trump, very left wing. Talk to
us about your understanding and working history with Eric Komer
as particular as a clerk but also head of the
County Clerk's association, and how you sort of may have

(02:05):
come across some of these more hostile seeming political views
that Oltman painted this picture and said, look, this is
a guy who you can see as a villain who
might just want to steal the election.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
Sure, So, as I mentioned, I met Eric I think
in twenty thirteen or twenty fourteen when I became clerk
in a Rapahoe County. One of the first things that
we started working on was trying to get a better
post election tabulation audit for our county and for Colorado.
So we had signed up to do a pilot project

(02:38):
with the EAC Election Assistants Commission in DC and with
the Secretary of State's Office under Secretary Guestler, where we
would work on the risk limiting audit concept and try
to try to crack the nut because it hadn't really
been done in completion before. And we learned some great
lessons through that process, including that the voting system that
we were on before, which was an older Sequoia voting system,

(02:59):
wouldn't enable us to do a full risk limiting audit.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
And so one of the things I'm talking with Dominion
was I.

Speaker 4 (03:06):
Let them know of what changes we needed to the
voting system so that we could better audit it and
provide the public greater confidence. And how these tabulation systems
worked and functioned during the course of an election. So
it was during those meetings and discussions with Dominion when
I first got to know Eric. After that, I would
see him at various clerks conferences, at various national conferences,

(03:27):
you know, whether it was you know, in sessions or
maybe you know, have at the bar later having a drink.
He and I very quickly after knowing each other, you know,
we quickly realized we were on very opposite ends of
the political spectrum. You know, I'm very conservative, he is
very progressive, and so we would have debates and have
a lot of fun doing so, and sometimes they would

(03:48):
get heated, but never never in a crazy fashion. You know,
it was really just robust debates where we would have
these conversations.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
So would people around, you know, to expect this.

Speaker 4 (03:59):
One hundred percent, like, okay, here goes Eric and Matt.
Put it on an egg timer and see which one
starts yelling first, and so we would have a great
time doing it. So, you know, I know how progressive
Eric is, but I also know, through the context of
working with him through these meetings and working on the
voting system, how seriously he takes his work working in elections,
how dedicated he is to making sure that dominion customers

(04:23):
have the best possible systems to be able to provide
fair and secure elections, and just what the work, what
it meant to him to work in elections, to know
that we are helping people be able to cast a
ballot let their voice be heard.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
That was sank or sank to him. That meant more
to him than anything.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
So he checked his politics at the door.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, he did. He absolutely checked his politics at the door.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
So when some of the you know, I saw one
of the posts they had brought up on Facebook, we're
Facebook friends, and my thought was, okay, Eric, that's really
over the top.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
But I knew it was Eric.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
Now, is this the one where he said unfriend me
and trump me now and drop F bombs and other
vulgar language about Trump? And this was round twenty sixteen,
twenty seventeen, right, I.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
Think it was July of twenty sixteen, Okay, And so
I had seen that, I'm like, oh, Frevn's sakes, Eric,
you know, that's way over the top. But again I
know Eric, and you know, did I ever think for
one single moment that that meant he couldn't come in
and be objective when working on election systems and helping
people conduct elections.

Speaker 3 (05:20):
Never in a million years, And I'm not the only one.

Speaker 4 (05:22):
Other people who knew Eric also knew that they could
trust him to work on elections and be upfront and
honorable in the way that he conducted and worked on
these systems.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Matt Crane joining us here in studio.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
He testified yesterday in day three of the trial of
Mike Lindell. My Pillow and Frank Speech, both companies of
Mike Lindell, and there Komer brought this case and Matt
when we look at the claims being made, so the
defamation that is being alleged by Coomer isn't just that

(05:58):
you know, he was named and attack was that the
implication was he was the trader used. That word was
used as trader. Lindell talked about melting down the voting machines,
and he would be the first behind the bars that
would be made of the metal from the voting machines.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
And so forth. That was all in the context of.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Eric Kumer's the main guy, the sort of the ring
leader of stealing the election. The two things, one, what
do you make of that claim regarding Klumer?

Speaker 2 (06:24):
And then more broadly, when you.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Look at the allegations that we've seen for five years
now just about of stolen election from twenty twenty, how
do you look at whether at determining whether that's the case,
let alone that it isn't the.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
Cases you've concluded, Well, the claims from Lindell and others
about Eric and calling him trader and saying that he's
going to be in jail versus, it's laughable on its
face for a number of reasons. One, you know, the
election community knows Eric knows he would never do anything
like that. Too, It's impossible for one person to change

(07:00):
entire federal election like that. In three, we know that
with the security and defense and depth posture that we
have around our voting systems, that it wasn't possible if
something the fairies had happened, we would have discovered it.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
So that part, you know, we knew it.

Speaker 4 (07:15):
Was garbage from the very first minute it started coming out.
But then when you start to use words like trader
and belong in jail, then that leads to death threats, intimidation.
Eric had people camping outside his house putting videos online
threatening his life. He's you know, he had to leave
his house Ultimately he had to leave the country for
a while because the death threats that were coming against him,

(07:37):
all because it was based on a lie. So I think,
you know when you talk about the impact, And of
course Lindell he may not have been the first one
to start this. I think we know Joe Oltman was
the first one to start these lives. But what Lindell
had was the largest platform and the most money, and
he hired he worked.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
With with oatmen, right.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
He brought in others like you know, Sharona Bishop started
Cause of America with other bad actors from Colorado to
go and they kept perpetuating these lines about Eric, about dominion.

Speaker 2 (08:09):
A couple of things.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
One to be clear, you said, so before you were
a Republican, you were the clerk in Arapo County. You
were appointed in twenty thirteen, then elected to a full term,
and then you were unsuccessful in your re election bid,
and then a couple of years later ended up as
the executive director of the Colorado County Clerks Association.

Speaker 2 (08:26):
But your experience goes back twenty five years.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yes, So when you look at that, what is sort
of the cornerstone of our system particularly and let's say Colorado.
Since there are so many allegations from for example, Tina Peters,
the convicted former clerk of Mesa County, and others like
Joel and so forth about Colorado in particular, what sort

(08:48):
of the cornerstone that from your twenty five years of
experience you look at and say, Okay, if we just
crosscheck this and this, you could.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Tell that it's legit election right, Well, certainly, I mean
when you look at the when you look at the
chain of custody, the access controls we have around these
voting system components, the way that we they are certified
and tested before they ever get to be used in
an election, and then the way that we audit the
election through the through the risk limiting audit. After the fact,
a lot of counties do extra auditing beyond the risk

(09:20):
limiting audit to validate that the results are accurate and true.
And so, you know, when people put out claims like this,
it's always interesting because they may say, oh, well, this
part of the system is vulnerable, but they never talk
about the ways the mitigations that we put in place
to protect that vulnerability and others. They always take one
one or two aspects cherry pick on that, and they

(09:41):
purposely leave out all of the rest of the detail
because the goal here, right is to scare people, right,
they want political change, and many of them are doing
this for financial gain, so they keep saying even though
they show no real instances of fraud, they say, well,
keep giving me money because the big reveal is coming.

Speaker 1 (09:59):
Yeah, I want I want to play a little example
of this. I played it earlier, so maybe this is
an event to give I give an advertisement. But this
was at the end of the interview, yes, or on
Tuesday that I saw outside and.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Again, and I'll post pictures.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
On my x account at saying center saying with an E,
not an a center. But I saw him give this
interview to his own outlet, Lindell TV. And the end
of the interview with of course a classic Mike Lindell promotion, says.

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Speaker 2 (11:04):
And I want to say.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
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Speaker 2 (11:16):
Huh. Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 1 (11:18):
You're giving an interview during the lunch break to your
own outlet, which I don't know.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
The related if Lindell TV.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
I think it's under it's maybe a new name of
Frank Speech, but I'm not clear on that either way,
it's clearly is his media property, right and there you go,
that's what he's doing.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
To your point, well, yeah, not surprise, grifters are going
to drift.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
So when we look at this, uh, well, actually two things.
One paper ballots. I mean to me, that's the corner,
the real cornerstone of being able to verify the results.

Speaker 4 (11:48):
And I'm glad Eric's attorneys asked me this on to
redirect yesterday. Because the way, the biggest way that we
know all of this is a farce, right, and all
of it is you for those political and financial motives,
is because if somebody really questioned the twenty twenty election
or any election, and you're worried about the way, you
think there's something wrong with the voting systems, the clearest, cleanest,

(12:12):
most direct way to validate whether the voting system performed properly,
after all the audits had done everything else is to
put in an open records request for the ballots. They're
available under KORRA under the Colorado Open Records Act, so
you can. It may cost some money to do that,
and it may be very expensive if you want all
the ballots, depending on how long you know you want
them available for.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
But you can do that.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
And Lindella spent forty million dollars in the last four
years he said something like that on this or it
would have been a drop in the bucket for it.
But do you think that he or anybody else has
actually gone in before the ballots were destroyed after the
necessary retention period to say, hey, let me see those ballots.
This was always Tina's biggest mistake. But I'm not surprised
she didn't know the job. She could have always hand

(12:55):
had handcount of those ballots after the election.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
She never did. And there's a reason they don't do that.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
To me, it's because they know their whole life falls
apart if they go back to the original source, which
is those paper ballants.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
That's abundantly important.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Also yesterday, I have to say, at least for the
first the two days that I watched, you.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Had the line of the trial.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
I think that got a laugh from everybody, maybe even
Liddell in the court room.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Where they were trying to say okay.

Speaker 1 (13:22):
So you went into the witness room during the break,
and then Eric Komer and his attorney came in after
you again we're talking with Matt Crane came in after you,
and then by the time you needed to come back out,
the three of you came out together. And so one
of Lindell's lawyers, who was doing the cross examination with
you on the witness stand, was talking about that and

(13:42):
trying to give the implication like something's going on here,
and you said, if you to come in, I would
have hung out with you too, which I thought was excellent.

Speaker 4 (13:54):
That was fun and it was I mean, I didn't
know they were going to follow me into the room.
They just said I didn't have to stay on this stand,
and so I got up went to get a new
bottle of water. They all came in to get another
bottle of water and a little something.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
To eat too.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
They all made very clear, we cannot talk about any
of your testimony, so don't say anything, and we didn't.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
We were in there, I don't know ten minutes, and
then we went back out together.

Speaker 4 (14:16):
I was a little surprised they tried to make something
of that, but you know, I was able to have
a little bit of fun with it too.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
And I saw after the courtroom his attorneys came up
to talk to you, and we're a very pleasant conversation,
it seemed, yes, so real quick, because we're just about
at a time Matt Crane joining us, I want you
to put your hat on as the Colorida County Clerks
Association head and former clerk of Rapaho County, the county
that you oversaw elections for, has now been back in

(14:44):
the news, not as much as in the news as
in the midst of a new conspiracy theory over this
published document. Called a cast vote record that had issues
with redactions. I'll just say real quick that Colorado law
requires you're supposed to keep the an anonymity a secret ballot, right,
And so that means when you release this cast rote

(15:04):
cast vote record that shows how voters had voted without
identifying the voter for really small precincts that may just
have a few people living there, you're supposed to just
delete those, right. But something else happened, and this is
from the twenty twenty election. Talk to us real quick
about that as briefly as you can.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Sure, So a Rapo.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
County created a redacted cast vote record and as a
transparency document to be able to if people want to
go through and see they can see it. Now we
do have to go back and redact, as you said,
that's under state law that we have to do that.
I think there were only something like fifteen ballots that
were impacted, so certainly out of a I think there
were over three and fifty thousand votes. Casting a Rapo

(15:47):
fifteen ballots is basically nothing. It really does nothing demonstrable
to the file. So a Rapo County post they created
that file on December tenth. Now that date's important because
twenty twenty. Yeah, it was after the election was certified,
and so they did it, they sorted it, they put
it up as they have in years past. They didn't
know that there was either an error made in the

(16:07):
sorting process or some kind of other error maybe made
with a file transfer to an FTP site, where the
rose inside the file got shuffled.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
The overall vote totals for.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
The candidates remained intact, but the votes got shuffled between precincts.

Speaker 3 (16:22):
The rose got shuffled.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
Nobody noticed this, although there were some people that had
pulled down the file and analyzed it and said, hey,
the way the vote trans are happening and pro Trump
pro Biden precincts aren't matching up, and so that's a
problem in particular.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
A professor for MEA, yeah, well, I think there was
a guy.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
Named Edd Solomon who's using the mistaking cast but record
in a lawsuit in Nevada. So then four years goes
by a professor from Yale's looking at the file. He
contacts the county head says, hey, I think I see
an error here, kind of looks at it and says, yep,
there's some kind of error there, so they pulled down
the erroneous file, reached the redaction, and then reload the

(17:02):
corrected file. Now, of course, because we know that there
are bad actors there who will take anything, that's what
we call malinformation, right, a little bit of truth, and
they create a lie on it out of it. They say, well,
look a Rappaho county changed this file. They were changing ballots.
We can't trust the election. It's not auditible, all of
these things, when truth in fact, it's a transparency file.

(17:22):
The original cast vote record used for the audit and
certification were not impacted.

Speaker 3 (17:27):
They're pristine, they're in good shape.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
They throw all these other legal citations out, saying counties
can't redact, you're not allowed to do this. All of
their legal interpretations, just like in the MESA counter reports
is garbage, it's wrong. But that doesn't stop these bad
actors from running around and creating narratives so they can
continue their goals.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
And you don't have to.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Say anything in this, but I'll say the failure of
Clerk John Lopez to act quickly, I think precipitated the
ability for these as you quit, so call the bad
actors to take advantage of a vacuum and put out
false information and give falseom ess. But I appreciate you
clearing up some of what happened. There were way overdue
for a break. Once again, I'm running behind today, but

(18:06):
that was great.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Thank you so much. And great job yesterday, Matt Craig,
thanks to me.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
I appreciate it.