06-05-25 Interview - Susan Miller with Jimmy Sengenberger

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Susan Miller is a past school board member in Jefferson
County Schools and left not that long ago, what after
the twenty twenty three election. Right Ryany Zackly, she joins
me now here in studio, welcome to koa.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hey, it's good to be here. Thank you, it's good
to have you here.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
And you really are just a wealth of information on
understanding how things work.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
In Jeffco schools.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
So I'm just going to give you a very big
picture question, Okay, broad question.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
How do you.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
Assess how the district has been performing in the last
few years under Superintendent Tracy Dorlin.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
I think you look at it a couple different ways.
Certainly the most important is to focus on children. How
are kids doing? How have they been progressing? And I
think you look at not only the academics, but also
how they're feeling about where they are in their schools,
and are the academics challenging enough and are they moving forward?
And so talking about the academic side, when you look

(00:59):
at the measure of a progress, we can see the
high growth and high proficiency levels moving from reading this
past year twenty three to twenty four, from fifty four
schools to seventy seven schools high growth high proficiency. That's exciting.
Same thing for math, right, we should be looking at
sixty eight schools high growth high proficiency last year. We're

(01:20):
at seventy nine this year. So they're moving in the
right direction. And last week at the board meeting, when
we had a little bit of theater with the teachers'
union and the clapping and everybody being upset, you know,
you're not paying attention to us, you're not listening to us.
They left, they got up, walked out, and they were

(01:40):
not there for the monitoring report, which was basically showing
how are kids feeling, what are their happy factors in
their schools, and those were all on the rise, all improving.
So if we're focusing on what is best about Jefferson County,
our job is to educate children, and we want great
teachers and et cetera. But we really should be looking

(02:01):
at how the kids are doing in school academically and
from a good feeling perspective about where they are.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
So in terms of the academics, in terms of the
environment overall, you think the metrics are showing at least
some clear improvements.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Absolutely, and that's very different from even what we were
seeing pre COVID, right, so you know, we can kind
of say, hey, look what was happening pre COVID. We
hit COVID. That was horrific. Kids stayed home, came back
you know, two years ago, fully right, and we had
a lot of challenges. You know, there was a lot

(02:39):
of behavior issues. There was a lot of you know,
not knowing how to do school anymore. We can see
that that has shifted, and that's taken a lot of
effort nominally from central of the district, but also the
teachers and also the people that are in those classrooms
and in those buildings.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Former jeff Co School's board member Susan Miller joining us
in studio. When we look at some of the downsides
negatives to what's happening, I think there are a couple
glaring things. One is the financial state, and I'd love
for you to lay out some of this because they're
in a really absurdly rough position, and that's putting it

(03:15):
mildly in jeff.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Co right now. Yeah, so let's go back in time.
You know, when we had COVID, the federal government said hey,
we've got to pay attention to public schools and they
sent out a lot of money, and so starting in
twenty twenty one, we had a huge inflow of federal
dollars what we call eser dollars. But all that money
was supposed to be spent by the end of twenty four, right,

(03:38):
so we were supposed to be finishing that all up.
And what Jeff co did during that time is they
took the money. They put it into certain features in
the facilities. They also put it into student tutoring, student academics.
They invested in program curriculum. For the first time, they
actually had consistent programming for reading, math programs as well,
and so they invested both in the facility side where

(04:00):
they were allowed to as well as in the buildings. Well,
money is fungible, right, and so at that time we
also started to increase salaries and we started at colas
and we did steps and levels and it started to
become more and more expensive, but it was kind of
covered because of what money we had also received from
the federal government. There's nowhere to hide. Now. We have

(04:22):
declining enrollment and we've had that over the past decade.
We have increasing revenue, increasing expenses. We have costs associated
with programming now we want consistency in the curriculums that
they've been investing in. So there's a lot of different
components going on in terms of cost and expenses. And
what's happened is over the past oh gosh, you know

(04:44):
three years. Let's see, in twenty four to twenty five,
we had a draw of deficit about like a draw
from our reserves, right of about thirty nine million dollars.
This year, we're looking at another forty million. Next year,
we're looking at sixty million. What does that mean? That
means we're starting to get to the marrow and we're
going to be starting to impact children. And you know,

(05:04):
you cannot afford a six and a half percent cola
and a two and a half percent steps and levels
because everybody also not only do they get that cola,
but everybody moves up right, So it's exponential. And two years,
these past two years alone, one hundred million dollars in
costs associated with you know, rising rising staff level salaries.

(05:30):
So I mean that's not sustainable. And and they know
that they've done that. I mean, they acknowledge that they've
done that. So to me, it's either you know, we're
robbing the treasury right and like we did in Roman times,
or it's just kind of malfeasance, Like what how do
you do that?

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, I mean the state is it's really hard to
encapsulate it here on the air right now because it
is so detrimental in terms of what's happened fiscally in
Jeffrico schools. And I mean that falls at the feet
of who most responsibly is that the problem? A folly
of the board, Is that a folly of the superintendent?

(06:08):
Everybody in leadership? Is that a tax revenue issue? How
do you look at it?

Speaker 2 (06:12):
I think I look at it as the board right now.
They all ran on making sure that teachers' union and
teachers should be well compensated, and I believe teachers should
be extremely, extremely well. You want those people in their
classrooms that are doing great things, you want to pay
them well. I think, however, that rather than sitting back

(06:35):
and saying, when we had that first deficit, you needed
to put a plan in place about hey, how are
we going to come out of that deficit? And instead
there was no plan. There was no directive by the board,
which is under government under policy governance, the board has
to direct the superintendent to do the work that they
need the superintendent and her team to do. So, hey,

(06:58):
what's that than going to look like we need to
address the deficit that was never directed, that was never asked,
And that to me is you know, combination of knowne
oh it's ab sord. Yeah. No, we're not understanding necessarily
what their role and responsibility was. But they should because
they passed the budget and there was a statement that

(07:20):
was sent to the state that says, hey, we have
to come up with a plan.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's irresponsible, is what it is. And one thing that
was staggering in the theatrical performance of the union last
week at the board meeting when they issued there talked
about their vote of no confidence and.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
All of that.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Union leaders branded a proposed cost of living increased by
the district and their negotiations as being only one and
a half percent and plus a two and a half
percent bump in this step in lane system that they have.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
But they call that a pay cut. And yet, as
you've pointed out, like it's.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
What fifty three percent increase in salaries raises over the
last five years, right, but things are expensive, you see,
so therefore that amounts to a pay cut, which only
in government can you get away with that and possibly
end up with more.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well, and I would also say that's at the very
top end, right of the scales, right, So it's not
a pay cut necessarily for the persons that's in the
middle of the scale. It's just that at the top
of the scale they have nowhere else to go, right,
So in their calculation they can sit back and say,
that's that's kind of a cut for us, Right, We're
not getting exactly what everybody else is, but well, you're.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Not getting an equivalent increase, that's not cut.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Well, I don't disagree, but when I kind of a point, right,
and I kind of liked a fifty five percent increase,
isn't that nice? Yeah, yes, it would have been nice.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
It would be It would be wonderful to have that
and then be able to say, well, you're not giving
me more, So.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
Now it's a pay cut.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Everybody who's dealing with higher egg prices than everything else,
or I'm struggling to get by so many people?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
What is what's happening right now? Susan Miller. Right, Well,
I would also go back in time. Let's go back
to two thousand and eight. And two thousand and nine
when we had severe cuts as well back then, right,
that was the recession. Everything was, you know, in chaos
and the financial markets were crazy, et cetera. Because of
the housing debacle. They took cuts and said, you know,

(09:22):
we took significant cuts back in two thousand and eight
and two thousand and nine, so did everybody else, and
you know, we continue to bring that up in negotiations.
Well we took cuts back then, Well, everybody took cuts
back then, you know. And to be able to say
to my you know, retirement plan, well you need to
make that up for me, or to my employer now

(09:43):
saying well, I you know I took cuts back in
two thousand and two thousand and nine. You need to
make that up even though I've moved around and et cetera.
It's it's not real. And rather than going back and saying, well,
you need you promised us, you can never promise the
board can never promise to have another board increased salaries,
et cetera. It kind of isn't that mentality again? Will

(10:03):
we deserve this and not? I agree you deserve to
be well paid, but the reality is you have declining enrollment,
your revenues are somewhat stagnant. We're kind of in a
weird place compared to other school districts in Denver, right,
and yet we're asking to be increasing. Whats what a
businesses doing.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
They can't just say, well, we're going to raise that
they have to they say salary freeze or maybe furloughs.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
I mean, look at the city of Denver.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
They're in such a bad shape now too that they're
doing furloughs. So I mean, you know, the Jeff co
is in this terrible these terrible straits fit financially, and
yet they're not understanding or showing any sort of And
this is at least the union. Remember the union bosses
are the ones that are engaging in these bargaining negotiations,

(10:50):
but they represent less than a quarter of teachers in
the disition.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
When you actually think about it, you know, you have
thirteen people making this vote of no confidence letter and
send it out to the media, and you know, at
the board meeting that's like zero point what two percent
of total teachers and their own teachers' union, you know,
didn't even know that this was happening. And so think
about that, you had thirteen people put Jeff Co into

(11:16):
just a crazy spiral.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, well, and the real quick before I wanted to
talk about the union specifically. But the other big thing,
the stuff that has been identified by Jeff Co kids
first and so forth, it's trusted adult issues with policy
there and with all of the different I mean, we've
had in the last couple of years, something in the
order of like thirty sex abuse scandals or things of

(11:38):
that nature. The most the one that's caught the most attention,
of course, was the former chief of Schools, David Wise,
who took his own life after New Year's after being
investigated as an investigation was underway for child pornography and
so forth.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
But you have these deep concerns.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
And it's really that, in part, a culture that jeffco
has had for many years, since even before Tracy Dorelyn
is superintendent, seems to have just gotten worse, especially with
some of these policies that they've been instituting and approaches.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Well, I think you know, you as you noted, we
had some challenges before Tracy right that you know, took
us back to Jason and right exactly, thank you for clarification,
and so in many ways I think we have to
talk about the culture within jeff Co. And you know
how how things have been reported or not reported, right,

(12:36):
some things were just kind of ignored, or people removed,
people went to a different school, or they removed someplace else,
or they left and they went to another school district.
I think because there is light being shined on this issue,
I think there's more items coming to light. And I

(12:57):
know that when Tracy came in, there's a couple instances
where it was kind of like, oh my gosh, I
can't believe this is the case. We need to put
in the mandatory I'm not responder was the mandatory porter,
Thank you very much. We need to put those trainings
in place. But that means you have to train leaders

(13:19):
at your high schools, middle schools, elementary schools, principals, counselors,
and you have to keep training them over And what
does it mean to be a mandatory reporter? What you
know that person down the hall, they just they're just
nice to kids. Well, let's think about that, are they?
I mean? I don't. I think teachers, of course have
the best intentions, but there are some as my brother

(13:40):
in law, who was an attorney general back in Rhode
Island has said, you know, where children are, there too
shall be people that are potentially wanted to pray on them.
And so I think we have to be very conscious
of that, and I think constantly training and explaining to
people what it actually is and making people understand that
some relationship ships are not appropriate. You don't get to

(14:01):
text your children after school, you don't get to text
people NonStop. You don't get to give them gifts, you
don't get to give them.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, and that's that's the problem of this trusted adult
mindset that as even the legislature trying to push things
along those lines. But you have these policies, these cultural
customs and different activities and things that you're doing that
go beyond just trying to institutionalize trust when trust needs
to be earned.

Speaker 2 (14:27):
Well, that has always been my point, and I think
that that goes back to our parents and our guardians
to talk with your children about who should we identify
as a trusted adult. It's not just the teacher down
the hall who I just met in September and that
person as a trusted adult. No, that comes to the
parents to sit down and say these what do these

(14:50):
are the trusted adults? We think about what do you
think about son? Daughter? You know? Who do you who
would you want to identify? That's the conversation that should
really be happening well.

Speaker 1 (14:59):
And then and there's also the natural like I had
with teachers, where you develop that Okay, I trust you
because you've shown it, You've demonstrated it to me, and
that takes time and a lot of efforts. Susan Miller,
our guest, former member of the Jeffco School Board. We
literally have about a minute left. Time flies when you're
having fun. But I want to talk real, real briefly.

(15:20):
I wrote a column the other day and the Denver Gazette, where,
of course I'm choice weekly columnists. Teachers' unions reap what
they've sown. I think in jeff Go and in Denver,
so many of these problems at the feet of the
teachers unions that are trying to pawn off responsibility or
to scapegoat people. At a moment when there's a lot
of consternation from the public about what's happening in school districts.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
How do you look at this? I think that you
know you you look to where the money goes, right,
I mean, follow the money, follow the money, Follow the money,
and when you have people that have received substantial amounts
of money from organizations, you can certainly see where there
might be some conflict of interest. And so I think

(16:02):
we need to be very cognizant of where dollars come
from when people are running for office and pay attention.
And I think that that's the roosters or whatever chickens
have roos, well, whatever that analogy is. But I think,
you know, we have to be cognizant of that.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
And as I lay out in my column, it's like
three hundred eighty three hundred and eighty thousand dollars that
have been given to just the union backed board members
between jeff Co and Denver, and that follow the money
is absolutely essential and ask the question.

Speaker 2 (16:37):
Who are they beholden to?

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Susan Miller thank you so much for checking out here
for this conversation in studio.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
Really appreciate it. It is a pleasure. Thanks so much, Jimmy.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Thank you once again. Former Jeffco School board member, Susan
Miller