Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Joining me now though, to talk about an event coming
up on July nineteenth at the DAV Chapter forty one
at the Gene Nody Senior Center in Fort Morgan. I've
got Jack Darnell. He's the Disabled American Veteran executive board
member for the State Department of Colorado. Hello Jack, Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh Mandy, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm doing just fine, and I got to tell you.
I want you to start by telling my audience a
little bit about disabled American veterans.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now, we have our mission is we have three main missions,
once for legislative issues, state and federal. For example, with
the state, if you're at least fifty percent compensation, you
will get free license plates, you can get into the
parks free. And we're working on other legislation. Matter of fact,
(00:50):
I'm on the UVC committee and we talked about that today,
and we're working on United Veterans Coalition issues this year
and then the future camp prove state the state does.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Then we have federal legislation, which we're going to talk
about today. Compensation, VA, medico, schools, education, all this kind
of stuff, lots of stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
The second thing we do is compensation filing that we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And the third ist transportation.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And I have a list of transportation people throughout the
state that transports veterans to the via.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Clinics and to the hospitals. Chey in Wyoming handshoots Grand Junction,
and Albuquerque, New Mexico takes it in the southern part
of the state for the hospitals.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Right, So, Jack, I want to talk about how challenging
it can be for a veteran to navigate the disability system.
And I say this as someone married to a disabled veteran, right,
And I would give my husband mad props for his
(01:55):
ability to navigate the VA. He is one of those
guys that other people will call to ask for advice
because he is relentless and he is dogged, and he
writes down every single person's name and extension that he
talks to and keeps very very careful notes. But man,
they don't make it easy for veterans to access disability benefits.
And tell me a little bit about the process that
(02:18):
people should know.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
From your perspective, Mandy, you're exactly right.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I found out the same thing so disabled itor and
your husband did it perfect. You got to learn the system.
You got to ask a lot of questions. You can't
give up. It's not over until you give up.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So that's the main thing. We have numbers of certain
numbers you can call the problems. The VA is so big.
You got to call this number for this, You got
to call that number for that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And some of them don't communicate with the other one,
but they are working on that. Once you learn the system,
I get most of my VA stuff done to and
choose medical center you see.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Health and you can do that. But you got to
learn the system.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And once you get in there you can go out
any of the doctor you want.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And so your husband did it perfect. You must have
trained inam right.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
No, this is I can take no credit. I am
baffled by so much military stuff. It's not even funny.
It all seems very unwieldy to me. But well, that's
the story for another time. Let's talk about disability and
disability ratings and what if you're a veteran and you're
having things happen now even though you've been out for
(03:26):
several years, like maybe you've lost your hearing. That was
okay when you retired, but now is gone. I mean,
explain how the process works for a veteran seeking a
disability rating.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Well, the first thing you got to do is attend
this meeting this Saturday, July nineteenth at the Jing Dotie
Chapter forty one to four Morgan Senior Center on three
oh seven Lindus Street before Morgan.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
That starts the process.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
These guys are good, they're National Service officers, they've been training,
They've had months of training, they filed thousands of cases
and they don't charge anything.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
This is all free.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
There's people out there that charge you money to do
it or one a percentage. We don't charge nothing where
your advocate. So start there and then what you got
to do is they will follow up in the Europe
your advocate through the whole process. So you just have
to have the initiative to go to one of these
events that we put on.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
We're trying to get the word out and we.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Really appreciate what KOA is doing on trying to get
the word out the help veterans.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's what we find the hardest thing is is the
communication and trying.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
To get people out to these events. So if you
start there, they'll start the process and then what happens
is they will send you to one of their doctors.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It's an outsourced doctor.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
It could be if it's hearing, like you suggested, I'll
sing it to a doctor that deals with that. They'll
test you're hearing. They'll send the results back into the VA.
Then they'll make a decision. Are you ten percent, are
you twenty percent, are you fifty percent? Or you said
they'll make a decision on the percentage of compensation. You
can always refile too, so that's kind of the way
(05:04):
the process works.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Is it designed to be frustrating or is that just
a bug not a feature? You know what I mean,
because it is frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know, I understand what you're saying, because I've been
there too, so frustrating until I got what I thought
I deserved and you just got to stick with it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It is frustrating. I don't think they mean it to
be frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
It's just as such a bugroatic system, neurocrotic system.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That is just it's not intentional.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Again, you have to if you work with these people,
they can get a hold of people, you can get
the right numbers, they can give you in contact, and
you have to be taken initiative yourself to do it
like you did.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That was perfect. That's exactly what I did. And it
works well once you learn the system, it works really well.
I give them kudos.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The VA I was shy in Wyoming. The hospital, the
clinic in Loveland has been great for me. If I
need somebody, I go to them and say, hey, I
want to go this doctor and my doctor. The DA
gives me. Says okay, and they give me. They paid
for the one hundred percent of the whole thing, and
they paid for the outsourcing of the doctor.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So you picked the doctor you want.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Even somebody in our in our on my text line
just asked, what do you do if you can't make
this meeting? If they can't get to the meeting, what
options do you guys have?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
That's a good question. We're gonna start doing more of these.
We started doing this last year here in Fort Morgan.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
We just had a new commander.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Takeover and he's gonna he's starting to do these throughout
the state.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Scott phil They're going to do one in the Denver
metro area.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I think it's a laquid there at that chapter there
August twenty sixth I believe it is okay, but they
can get ahold of da V and I think you
got all this on your website.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I the state da V.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
They can get get on your website, get that phone number,
and they're going to have more of them. I think
they're gonna have one in Colorado Springs. This is something
that we started doing. Uh, it needs to be done,
and we talked about this at the UBC meeting today too,
the night a better Coinalition meeting. But this is stuff
that we need to get the word out on and
we really appreciate you doing that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well, you know, what are some of the most common
disabilities that you guys deal with? And I'm asking this
because you know, now I'm married to an old soldier. Okay,
I'm married, and when he was a middle aged soldier
and now he's an old soldier, and I am here
to tell you we are still dealing with injuries that
he received in combat in his service. Okay, my husband's
(07:31):
perfectly healthy, but structurally he's a disaster because of being
shot and you know, all these different things that happened,
so things pop up later. What are some of the
most common things that people are coming in and saying, Look,
this is service connected and I need to get something
done about this.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That's a really good question, Mandia. I'm in the same
boat as your husband. The look at me, you think
I'm okay, but you go back. A lot of depends
on your MOS too, right.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
When I say that, it doesn't have to just your MOS.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You can get an injury while you're in that gets
worse as you get older.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
That you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
It could be some agent orange or some type of
chemicals that you're exposed to. Our fumes from the helicopters
or the aircraft or hearings.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
A big one. Yeah, and you get older, your ears
get worse too.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Some of this stuff may come of age, but a
lot of it is made worse by your military service,
of what your MOS was or what you were exposed
to or in a military.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A lot of these people qualify, but they think I won't.
You don't know unless you go to one of these
These people are good. The National Service officers, the VAD
and the.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
VFW are really good at what they do, and that's
what they do all the time.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
They file thousands of them. So that was a good question, and.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I would encourage anybody not to say I'm old and
I'm going to get that anyway.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It's going to make it worse as you get older,
which you probably know from your husband.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, Jack, I want to share a text message that
kind of goes right to this issue. Hi, Mandy. Some
vets have too much pride. Like my dad. It wasn't
until he had dementia that we could get him any
deserved benefits from the VA. He always claimed he did
it for his country and didn't need any compensation. He
had five battle ribbons from World War Two and still
(09:14):
wouldn't ask for anything.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Bless his soul.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
He's gone now, but we were able to use some
of his benefits for the last two years. And that
is such a crusty veteran thing to say I did
it for my country, I don't need anything, and then
they follow it up with there's somebody worse off than
me that needs it worse. I have heard that some
variation of that so many times. It makes my head explode.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I agree with one hundred percent many and that's something
we got to overcome.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And if you're if you're in that frame of mind,
think of what your relatives are going through.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
To try to get your help afterwards. It's a lot harder.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Think of the people that's going to have to take
care of you, that you should have done this earlier.
Think of it that, yeah, maybe you'll file it. You
do deserve it. That's why we got it, and we're
proud of you.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Well, I put a link to the DAV website. I
put a link with the address to the to the
Gene Nod Senior Center in Fort Morgan. This event is
happening on July nineteenth, if they're going to be there
all day, and so if you are in the Fort
Morgan area, if you're in the northern part of the state,
try and get to this event. But if not and
you still need help, the DAV contact information is on
(10:27):
the blog as well. I would strongly advise you to
take advantage of it, because, as I said, watching my
husband trying to navigate this stuff has been very instructive, right,
It's been very instructive and very frustrating, And for someone
that maybe isn't as tenacious or dogged as my husband is,
I would imagine it would be real easy to give up.
(10:49):
Is that what do you know what percentage of claims
are filed and then either never get resolution or just
kind of you know dropped at some point.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
No, I don't have any stats on it, but it
is you got to be tenacious, like you're saying, to
get it done. I was ready to give up several times.
The only reason I applied about seven years ago. I
had a friend of mine at the DAV that encouraged
me to do it and.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Finally said, Okay, do it.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And I was surprised, Like I said, well, I was
titury mos mso. And you may not think you qualify
for it, but it could be something that happened.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
There's so much that qualifies for.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
This as unbelievable, and almost every bit of an out
there I says it's got a good chance of qualifying
for something if they just try, If they just try,
just come down, file it and try.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It won't hurt anything, right, It's not going to change anything,
all right, Jack Darnell, I really appreciate your time. I
appreciate you taking care of our veterans and everybody at all,
the volunteers at DAV for doing this kind of stuff.
And let me know when we finally get some of
those scheduled in the metro or down in the Springs,
and we will let people know so they can travel
and if there's anything I can do to help facilitate that,
(11:58):
let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Jackppreciate you, Mandy, you've already done it. We greatly appreciate
you what you've done on your show there. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You have a great day.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Jack, you two, Mandy. Thanks all right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That is Jack Darnell was disabled American veterans
Joining me now though, to talk about an event coming
up on July nineteenth at the DAV Chapter forty one
at the Gene Nody Senior Center in Fort Morgan. I've
got Jack Darnell. He's the Disabled American Veteran executive board
member for the State Department of Colorado. Hello Jack, Welcome
to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh Mandy, how are you.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm doing just fine, and I got to tell you.
I want you to start by telling my audience a
little bit about disabled American veterans.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Now, we have our mission is we have three main missions,
once for legislative issues, state and federal. For example, with
the state, if you're at least fifty percent compensation, you
will get free license plates, you can get into the
parks free. And we're working on other legislation. Matter of fact,
(00:50):
I'm on the UVC committee and we talked about that today,
and we're working on United Veterans Coalition issues this year
and then the future camp prove state the state does.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Then we have federal legislation, which we're going to talk
about today. Compensation, VA, medico, schools, education, all this kind
of stuff, lots of stuff.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
The second thing we do is compensation filing that we're
going to talk about today.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
And the third ist transportation.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And I have a list of transportation people throughout the
state that transports veterans to the via.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Clinics and to the hospitals. Chey in Wyoming handshoots Grand Junction,
and Albuquerque, New Mexico takes it in the southern part
of the state for the hospitals.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Right, So, Jack, I want to talk about how challenging
it can be for a veteran to navigate the disability system.
And I say this as someone married to a disabled veteran, right,
And I would give my husband mad props for his
(01:55):
ability to navigate the VA. He is one of those
guys that other people will call to ask for advice
because he is relentless and he is dogged, and he
writes down every single person's name and extension that he
talks to and keeps very very careful notes. But man,
they don't make it easy for veterans to access disability benefits.
And tell me a little bit about the process that
(02:18):
people should know.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
From your perspective, Mandy, you're exactly right.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I found out the same thing so disabled itor and
your husband did it perfect. You got to learn the system.
You got to ask a lot of questions. You can't
give up. It's not over until you give up.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
So that's the main thing. We have numbers of certain
numbers you can call the problems. The VA is so big.
You got to call this number for this, You got
to call that number for that.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
And some of them don't communicate with the other one,
but they are working on that. Once you learn the system,
I get most of my VA stuff done to and
choose medical center you see.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Health and you can do that. But you got to
learn the system.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And once you get in there you can go out
any of the doctor you want.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
And so your husband did it perfect. You must have
trained inam right.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
No, this is I can take no credit. I am
baffled by so much military stuff. It's not even funny.
It all seems very unwieldy to me. But well, that's
the story for another time. Let's talk about disability and
disability ratings and what if you're a veteran and you're
having things happen now even though you've been out for
(03:26):
several years, like maybe you've lost your hearing. That was
okay when you retired, but now is gone. I mean,
explain how the process works for a veteran seeking a
disability rating.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
Well, the first thing you got to do is attend
this meeting this Saturday, July nineteenth at the Jing Dotie
Chapter forty one to four Morgan Senior Center on three
oh seven Lindus Street before Morgan.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
That starts the process.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
These guys are good, they're National Service officers, they've been training,
They've had months of training, they filed thousands of cases
and they don't charge anything.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
This is all free.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
There's people out there that charge you money to do
it or one a percentage. We don't charge nothing where
your advocate. So start there and then what you got
to do is they will follow up in the Europe
your advocate through the whole process. So you just have
to have the initiative to go to one of these
events that we put on.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
We're trying to get the word out and we.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Really appreciate what KOA is doing on trying to get
the word out the help veterans.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's what we find the hardest thing is is the
communication and trying.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
To get people out to these events. So if you
start there, they'll start the process and then what happens
is they will send you to one of their doctors.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
It's an outsourced doctor.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
It could be if it's hearing, like you suggested, I'll
sing it to a doctor that deals with that. They'll
test you're hearing. They'll send the results back into the VA.
Then they'll make a decision. Are you ten percent, are
you twenty percent, are you fifty percent? Or you said
they'll make a decision on the percentage of compensation. You
can always refile too, so that's kind of the way
(05:04):
the process works.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Is it designed to be frustrating or is that just
a bug not a feature? You know what I mean,
because it is frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You know, I understand what you're saying, because I've been
there too, so frustrating until I got what I thought
I deserved and you just got to stick with it.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It is frustrating. I don't think they mean it to
be frustrating.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
It's just as such a bugroatic system, neurocrotic system.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
That is just it's not intentional.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Again, you have to if you work with these people,
they can get a hold of people, you can get
the right numbers, they can give you in contact, and
you have to be taken initiative yourself to do it
like you did.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
That was perfect. That's exactly what I did. And it
works well once you learn the system, it works really well.
I give them kudos.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
The VA I was shy in Wyoming. The hospital, the
clinic in Loveland has been great for me. If I
need somebody, I go to them and say, hey, I
want to go this doctor and my doctor. The DA
gives me. Says okay, and they give me. They paid
for the one hundred percent of the whole thing, and
they paid for the outsourcing of the doctor.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So you picked the doctor you want.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Even somebody in our in our on my text line
just asked, what do you do if you can't make
this meeting? If they can't get to the meeting, what
options do you guys have?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
That's a good question. We're gonna start doing more of these.
We started doing this last year here in Fort Morgan.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
We just had a new commander.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
Takeover and he's gonna he's starting to do these throughout
the state.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Scott phil They're going to do one in the Denver
metro area.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
I think it's a laquid there at that chapter there
August twenty sixth I believe it is okay, but they
can get ahold of da V and I think you
got all this on your website.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
I the state da V.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
They can get get on your website, get that phone number,
and they're going to have more of them. I think
they're gonna have one in Colorado Springs. This is something
that we started doing. Uh, it needs to be done,
and we talked about this at the UBC meeting today too,
the night a better Coinalition meeting. But this is stuff
that we need to get the word out on and
we really appreciate you doing that.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
Well, you know, what are some of the most common
disabilities that you guys deal with? And I'm asking this
because you know, now I'm married to an old soldier. Okay,
I'm married, and when he was a middle aged soldier
and now he's an old soldier, and I am here
to tell you we are still dealing with injuries that
he received in combat in his service. Okay, my husband's
(07:31):
perfectly healthy, but structurally he's a disaster because of being
shot and you know, all these different things that happened,
so things pop up later. What are some of the
most common things that people are coming in and saying, Look,
this is service connected and I need to get something
done about this.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
That's a really good question, Mandia. I'm in the same
boat as your husband. The look at me, you think
I'm okay, but you go back. A lot of depends
on your MOS too, right.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
When I say that, it doesn't have to just your MOS.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
You can get an injury while you're in that gets
worse as you get older.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
That you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
It could be some agent orange or some type of
chemicals that you're exposed to. Our fumes from the helicopters
or the aircraft or hearings.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
A big one. Yeah, and you get older, your ears
get worse too.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Some of this stuff may come of age, but a
lot of it is made worse by your military service,
of what your MOS was or what you were exposed
to or in a military.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
A lot of these people qualify, but they think I won't.
You don't know unless you go to one of these
These people are good. The National Service officers, the VAD
and the.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
VFW are really good at what they do, and that's
what they do all the time.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
They file thousands of them. So that was a good question, and.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I would encourage anybody not to say I'm old and
I'm going to get that anyway.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It's going to make it worse as you get older,
which you probably know from your husband.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, Jack, I want to share a text message that
kind of goes right to this issue. Hi, Mandy. Some
vets have too much pride. Like my dad. It wasn't
until he had dementia that we could get him any
deserved benefits from the VA. He always claimed he did
it for his country and didn't need any compensation. He
had five battle ribbons from World War Two and still
(09:14):
wouldn't ask for anything.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Bless his soul.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
He's gone now, but we were able to use some
of his benefits for the last two years. And that
is such a crusty veteran thing to say I did
it for my country, I don't need anything, and then
they follow it up with there's somebody worse off than
me that needs it worse. I have heard that some
variation of that so many times. It makes my head explode.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I agree with one hundred percent many and that's something
we got to overcome.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
And if you're if you're in that frame of mind,
think of what your relatives are going through.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
To try to get your help afterwards. It's a lot harder.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Think of the people that's going to have to take
care of you, that you should have done this earlier.
Think of it that, yeah, maybe you'll file it. You
do deserve it. That's why we got it, and we're
proud of you.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Well, I put a link to the DAV website. I
put a link with the address to the to the
Gene Nod Senior Center in Fort Morgan. This event is
happening on July nineteenth, if they're going to be there
all day, and so if you are in the Fort
Morgan area, if you're in the northern part of the state,
try and get to this event. But if not and
you still need help, the DAV contact information is on
(10:27):
the blog as well. I would strongly advise you to
take advantage of it, because, as I said, watching my
husband trying to navigate this stuff has been very instructive, right,
It's been very instructive and very frustrating, And for someone
that maybe isn't as tenacious or dogged as my husband is,
I would imagine it would be real easy to give up.
(10:49):
Is that what do you know what percentage of claims
are filed and then either never get resolution or just
kind of you know dropped at some point.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
No, I don't have any stats on it, but it
is you got to be tenacious, like you're saying, to
get it done. I was ready to give up several times.
The only reason I applied about seven years ago. I
had a friend of mine at the DAV that encouraged
me to do it and.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Finally said, Okay, do it.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And I was surprised, Like I said, well, I was
titury mos mso. And you may not think you qualify
for it, but it could be something that happened.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
There's so much that qualifies for.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
This as unbelievable, and almost every bit of an out
there I says it's got a good chance of qualifying
for something if they just try, If they just try,
just come down, file it and try.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
It won't hurt anything, right, It's not going to change anything,
all right, Jack Darnell, I really appreciate your time. I
appreciate you taking care of our veterans and everybody at all,
the volunteers at DAV for doing this kind of stuff.
And let me know when we finally get some of
those scheduled in the metro or down in the Springs,
and we will let people know so they can travel
and if there's anything I can do to help facilitate that,
(11:58):
let me know.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Jackppreciate you, Mandy, you've already done it. We greatly appreciate
you what you've done on your show there. Thank you, sir.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You have a great day.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Jack, you two, Mandy. Thanks all right.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That is Jack Darnell was disabled American veterans
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