Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
My next guest is a former congressmanand self declared independent. He says,
we got to focus on the lostmiddle because that's where things get done.
It's the oil in the machine.And their numbers tell the story. Seventy
one million centrists say they would votefor an independent or they are taking action.
Scott Klug, Welcome to the show. Thanks very much, nice to
(00:20):
be here. Now, well let'stalk about this. So we're you were
in office, you were in thestate house or statement. So I was
in the US Congress for eight years. I was a Republican who represented Madison.
Okay, so why are you nowout here talking about independent voters?
Well, so it started actually whensomebody grabbed me at a grocery store when
I was reaching for a bag ofgranola. Of course, that's how all
(00:40):
the best ideas exactly. They tapme on the show and I said,
Cloak, what is and the fis going on? He said that the
Republicans are running around the country takingbooks off of middle school shelves, and
the Democrats are trying to take thestove out of my kitchen. It's like,
who signed up for these people?And I think there's a lot of
Americans who are just frustrated and puzzledand bewildered by what passes for political debate
(01:03):
in the country these days. Ithink the country is still very much center.
I don't think that's who's in Washingtonthese days, and I think there's
a major disconnect. I agree withyou because when you look at polling data
on the issues, more often thannot, even on something that is presented
to us as highly controversial, likesecuring the border or you know, making
(01:25):
immigration form that works to allow peopleto come here legally, when you look
at what the American people think,they want to get these things solved.
They want to take care of theseissues. But then you get to the
politicians in DC and they stand thereand go, these are intractable, intractable
problems. We can't possibly fix this. Well, how why? But I
bet that you and I and yourproducer mister Rogers could head down to a
(01:52):
coffee shop near here, pull twopeople out of boose, pull out a
napkin, and in twenty minutes we'dfigure out immigration reform. It's pretty simple.
I mean, it's security at theborder, it's figuring out a pathway
to citizenship, and it's figuring outa way for folks who've spent twenty five
years in this country, you know, cleaning bathrooms and working on rooftops and
paying taxes, some way to getus citizenship. Now, the Republican platform
(02:15):
that was agreed on last week,a lot of very conservative people are like,
that doesn't go far enough. Isthis an indication that at least in
the platform, maybe the Republicans arelike, maybe we need to look at
the center and find out what thecenter sink and represent that a little bit
more in what we're putting out.I think so, I would hope.
So, you know, here's thegreat frustration, right, So this year
(02:37):
the House comes up with excuse me, the Senate comes up with the deal,
sends it to the House, andthe Speaker kills it because Trump wants
it is an issue, and allthe Democrats howled. Well, in two
thousand and six, the deal gotcut in the House, goes to the
Senate and Chuck Schumer kills it becauseObama wants it is an issue. And
that's why I think most Americans goup, you know, a po's on
(02:59):
both your houses, and we don'tunderstand why they can't do it. You
know, well, they don't doit because you know in the House,
for example, you know this,and your listeners know this. The districts
are also wired in advance. Rightin the tire United States Congress four hundred
and thirty five seats, I thinkthere's only seventeen seats in which that member
of Congress won the district and theparty of a different the president of a
(03:20):
different party won it. So whenyou wake up in the morning, if
you're a Republican or a Democrat inCongress, which you wake up orrying about
is a challenge from the left ifyou're a Democratic, challenge if you're a
Republican. And the way we've gottenin this country is you don't get bonus
points for actually getting things done andtalking to people. On the other side,
we've been having conversations in Colorado aboutrank choice voting yep. And one
(03:43):
of the arguments being made for rankchoice voting is it disincentivizes exactly what you're
talking about, the primaries that focuson the hard right or the hard left
in order to get the base.Because in the primaries the bases who votes
right. So do we need todo something like that? Or In two
thousand and eight, after George W. Bush left the White House. I
saw him speak at an event andsomeone said, what's wrong with the polarization
(04:08):
in our country? And he said, jerrymandering. Jerrymandering to your point is
that we have too many uncompetitive districts. Is your organization working to sort of
address it from from that point ofview? Are you working to address it
with that point of food? I'maddressing it. I am an organization of
one. No, let me giveyou two points. I'm jerrymandering. You
know that actually goes back to thefounding days of the of the Republic.
(04:31):
That's actually a member of the foundingof the founding fathers was the person who
wired the district to protect themselves andit looked like a salamander. His first
name was Jerry. And that's wherethe term jerrymandering comes from. No idea.
Yeah, so some states have actuallyset up independent commissions to do him.
Some of them work, some ofthem don't work, and and so
(04:51):
that's clearly part of the problem.Rank choice voting is a little bit of
a mixed bag. It's only usedin two places at this point, and
who it's used In Alaska, It'sjust elected a Democrat to Congress. For
the first time in fifty years.It's used in Maine, and it's had
It's a strange system because in Maineyou use it in the primary, in
(05:11):
the state legislature and final voting forfederal offices. Out there, it's really
schizophrenic. It works and it doesn'twork. So the reason people would would
talk about this a lot is thatthe woman who won in Alaska said I'm
going to vote as an independent anda the centrist Democrat. She breaks with
her party about fifteen percent of thetime. Lisa Murkowski, who's a Republican
(05:32):
in the Senate from Alaska, whodid it the old fashioned way beating a
single Democrat, breaks with the Republicanparty thirty six percent of the time.
So I don't necessarily know that it'sa one for one correlation, but it's
a hot idea and I think it'sgoing to catch on, and they're going
to try it in San Francisco andin New York. They've had some problems
because there you actually have multiple ballotsand people get confused. Yeah, but
(05:57):
you know, I think the statesare the laboratory of let's try all these
ideas and then at the end ofthe day pick the best ones, and
I'll tell you the best one inthe country. We've got a huge problem
right now with poll workers. Halfof the pole officials in the country have
quit. Right. Listen to whatNebraska does. It's the only state in
the country that sends out subpoenas toresidents like you use for jury duty.
(06:23):
And so half of the people inNebraska who are working on elections are only
there because they get arrested and paya fine if they didn't show up.
Now, it does two things.It exposes people to how the system actually
works inside of it. And thesecond thing it does, you want to
try to commit fraud an election,good luck doing it when half the people
(06:44):
in the room are there. Certainlydon't get elected. So I think those
are all kinds of ideas worth trying. I'm not sure there's really a magic
bullet, and you have to rememberonly perfect yeah, and a lot of
the stuff we've done you will endup going oops. That can work out
the way we thought. But Ithink it's worth trying it. And Nevada,
which is a swing state, passranked voting on a ballot initiative this
(07:04):
fall. I think we do too. In Colorado. I believe they made
the ballot, so we will findout what happens there. It's already being
demagogued against pretty hard by both parties. Scott Klug is my guest. He's
a former congressman. He's got abook, The Lost Middle, got a
podcast, Lost Middle. Oh,very nice talking about these issues. I
appreciate you making time for me,absolutely and you can find it wherever you
get your podcast justlostmdal dot com.And let's talk about Wisconsin and the battleground
(07:28):
Midwestern states as we get closer.All right that Scott Klug will be right back
My next guest is a former congressmanand self declared independent. He says,
we got to focus on the lostmiddle because that's where things get done.
It's the oil in the machine.And their numbers tell the story. Seventy
one million centrists say they would votefor an independent or they are taking action.
Scott Klug, Welcome to the show. Thanks very much, nice to
(00:20):
be here. Now, well let'stalk about this. So we're you were
in office, you were in thestate house or statement. So I was
in the US Congress for eight years. I was a Republican who represented Madison.
Okay, so why are you nowout here talking about independent voters?
Well, so it started actually whensomebody grabbed me at a grocery store when
I was reaching for a bag ofgranola. Of course, that's how all
(00:40):
the best ideas exactly. They tapme on the show and I said,
Cloak, what is and the fis going on? He said that the
Republicans are running around the country takingbooks off of middle school shelves, and
the Democrats are trying to take thestove out of my kitchen. It's like,
who signed up for these people?And I think there's a lot of
Americans who are just frustrated and puzzledand bewildered by what passes for political debate
(01:03):
in the country these days. Ithink the country is still very much center.
I don't think that's who's in Washingtonthese days, and I think there's
a major disconnect. I agree withyou because when you look at polling data
on the issues, more often thannot, even on something that is presented
to us as highly controversial, likesecuring the border or you know, making
(01:25):
immigration form that works to allow peopleto come here legally, when you look
at what the American people think,they want to get these things solved.
They want to take care of theseissues. But then you get to the
politicians in DC and they stand thereand go, these are intractable, intractable
problems. We can't possibly fix this. Well, how why? But I
bet that you and I and yourproducer mister Rogers could head down to a
(01:52):
coffee shop near here, pull twopeople out of boose, pull out a
napkin, and in twenty minutes we'dfigure out immigration reform. It's pretty simple.
I mean, it's security at theborder, it's figuring out a pathway
to citizenship, and it's figuring outa way for folks who've spent twenty five
years in this country, you know, cleaning bathrooms and working on rooftops and
paying taxes, some way to getus citizenship. Now, the Republican platform
(02:15):
that was agreed on last week,a lot of very conservative people are like,
that doesn't go far enough. Isthis an indication that at least in
the platform, maybe the Republicans arelike, maybe we need to look at
the center and find out what thecenter sink and represent that a little bit
more in what we're putting out.I think so, I would hope.
So, you know, here's thegreat frustration, right, So this year
(02:37):
the House comes up with excuse me, the Senate comes up with the deal,
sends it to the House, andthe Speaker kills it because Trump wants
it is an issue, and allthe Democrats howled. Well, in two
thousand and six, the deal gotcut in the House, goes to the
Senate and Chuck Schumer kills it becauseObama wants it is an issue. And
that's why I think most Americans goup, you know, a po's on
(02:59):
both your houses, and we don'tunderstand why they can't do it. You
know, well, they don't doit because you know in the House,
for example, you know this,and your listeners know this. The districts
are also wired in advance. Rightin the tire United States Congress four hundred
and thirty five seats, I thinkthere's only seventeen seats in which that member
of Congress won the district and theparty of a different the president of a
(03:20):
different party won it. So whenyou wake up in the morning, if
you're a Republican or a Democrat inCongress, which you wake up orrying about
is a challenge from the left ifyou're a Democratic, challenge if you're a
Republican. And the way we've gottenin this country is you don't get bonus
points for actually getting things done andtalking to people. On the other side,
we've been having conversations in Colorado aboutrank choice voting yep. And one
(03:43):
of the arguments being made for rankchoice voting is it disincentivizes exactly what you're
talking about, the primaries that focuson the hard right or the hard left
in order to get the base.Because in the primaries the bases who votes
right. So do we need todo something like that? Or In two
thousand and eight, after George W. Bush left the White House. I
saw him speak at an event andsomeone said, what's wrong with the polarization
(04:08):
in our country? And he said, jerrymandering. Jerrymandering to your point is
that we have too many uncompetitive districts. Is your organization working to sort of
address it from from that point ofview? Are you working to address it
with that point of food? I'maddressing it. I am an organization of
one. No, let me giveyou two points. I'm jerrymandering. You
know that actually goes back to thefounding days of the of the Republic.
(04:31):
That's actually a member of the foundingof the founding fathers was the person who
wired the district to protect themselves andit looked like a salamander. His first
name was Jerry. And that's wherethe term jerrymandering comes from. No idea.
Yeah, so some states have actuallyset up independent commissions to do him.
Some of them work, some ofthem don't work, and and so
(04:51):
that's clearly part of the problem.Rank choice voting is a little bit of
a mixed bag. It's only usedin two places at this point, and
who it's used In Alaska, It'sjust elected a Democrat to Congress. For
the first time in fifty years.It's used in Maine, and it's had
It's a strange system because in Maineyou use it in the primary, in
(05:11):
the state legislature and final voting forfederal offices. Out there, it's really
schizophrenic. It works and it doesn'twork. So the reason people would would
talk about this a lot is thatthe woman who won in Alaska said I'm
going to vote as an independent anda the centrist Democrat. She breaks with
her party about fifteen percent of thetime. Lisa Murkowski, who's a Republican
(05:32):
in the Senate from Alaska, whodid it the old fashioned way beating a
single Democrat, breaks with the Republicanparty thirty six percent of the time.
So I don't necessarily know that it'sa one for one correlation, but it's
a hot idea and I think it'sgoing to catch on, and they're going
to try it in San Francisco andin New York. They've had some problems
because there you actually have multiple ballotsand people get confused. Yeah, but
(05:57):
you know, I think the statesare the laboratory of let's try all these
ideas and then at the end ofthe day pick the best ones, and
I'll tell you the best one inthe country. We've got a huge problem
right now with poll workers. Halfof the pole officials in the country have
quit. Right. Listen to whatNebraska does. It's the only state in
the country that sends out subpoenas toresidents like you use for jury duty.
(06:23):
And so half of the people inNebraska who are working on elections are only
there because they get arrested and paya fine if they didn't show up.
Now, it does two things.It exposes people to how the system actually
works inside of it. And thesecond thing it does, you want to
try to commit fraud an election,good luck doing it when half the people
(06:44):
in the room are there. Certainlydon't get elected. So I think those
are all kinds of ideas worth trying. I'm not sure there's really a magic
bullet, and you have to rememberonly perfect yeah, and a lot of
the stuff we've done you will endup going oops. That can work out
the way we thought. But Ithink it's worth trying it. And Nevada,
which is a swing state, passranked voting on a ballot initiative this
(07:04):
fall. I think we do too. In Colorado. I believe they made
the ballot, so we will findout what happens there. It's already being
demagogued against pretty hard by both parties. Scott Klug is my guest. He's
a former congressman. He's got abook, The Lost Middle, got a
podcast, Lost Middle. Oh,very nice talking about these issues. I
appreciate you making time for me,absolutely and you can find it wherever you
get your podcast justlostmdal dot com.And let's talk about Wisconsin and the battleground
(07:28):
Midwestern states as we get closer.All right that Scott Klug will be right back
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