September 4, 2025 • 11 mins
A PHYSICIANS GROUP FILES A GRIEVANCE OVER RACE BASED PROGRAMS And specifically at the University of Connecticut where they advertise a medical externship as a "pipeline for students of color". I've got Dr. Kurt Miceli on at 2:30 to talk about the complaint filed by the group he's with Do No Harm, which you can read here. Diversity as a primary goal is not ideal, especially in medicine. I want a great doctor of any color, not a doctor of color who may or may or may not be great.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
My next guest is with an organization called Do No Harm.
And Do No Harm is a group and I don't
know if it's all medical personnel in Do No Harm,
but they are working to drive this kind of political
gender ideology out of medicine. I might be paraphrasing a
little too generously there, but doctor Kurt Masseli is joining
(00:22):
me now to talk about a complaint they filed about
the University of Connecticut when it comes to limiting access
to certain externships.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
First of all, Kurt, welcome the show.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
First of all, I just.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Kind of badly encapsulated what Do No Harm does? Can
you tell my audience a little bit better what the
purpose of Do No Harm is and who's a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Absolutely so. We're an organization of over thirty thousand members,
and that could be medical people or non medical people, citizens, policymakers, physicians, nurses,
the whole nine yard. And we're focused on really two
main issues, and that's getting identity politics out of medicine
and also focusing on keeping kids safe from harmful gender ideology.
(01:11):
So those are our real two main focuses. We want
to bring medicine back to focusing on excellence, on quality,
on patients and not dealing with the social engineering and
the social justice movements and the other dei ideology that
has really taken it by storm.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I mentioned this too, doctor Masseli before we came on
the air. It's gotten to the point now where I'm
hearing terrible stories about the competency of some of the
medical students in various very high level programs. Like I
have already decided I will never see a doctor that's
come out of UCLA in the past ten years because
of some of the things I've heard there. But this
(01:49):
in Connecticut is one of those examples of a well
intended program that actually ends up being very racially biased.
So what did you guys file a complet specifically?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Absolutely so, As you mentioned, University of Connecticut School of
Medicine has an external clerkship program that they offer to
their fourth year medicals that offer fourth year medical students,
and so these are really coveted spots when you're our
fourth year medical student, you're in your last year, you're
looking to go to residency, and oftentimes these programs will
use these externships as a means of recruiting and attracting
(02:24):
those future residents there. And so they could be in drmatology,
they could be in internal medicine, they could be in
whatever field it might be that the university is offering.
And what University of Connecticut has done is they focus
this rotation, this externship, which offers a fifteen hundred dollars
scholarship as well to pay for travel and living expenses
while you're there for the four week rotation. They've offered
(02:45):
it really only to those underrepresentative medicine, and so those
who are Wide or Asian are really unable to apply.
And that's a big problem. That's a racial discrimination that's involved.
And again these are very much coveted spots. There are
spots that allow you to have effectively auditioned for the
residency program by making those connections, meeting folks and such.
And you know, it's certainly our belief that you should
(03:07):
be looking for the most qualified and exceptional folks and
no matter who they are, no matter what the color
of their skin is, they're dender their race, whatever they are,
whoever they are. The key is really flatting the most
qualified and best applicants and not again sort of socially
engineering this to just pick people of certain characteristics, and
you know that is just it's wrong from a moral standpoint,
(03:27):
it's certainly wrong from a legal standpoint, and it also
creates this terrible divisiveness in society, and we've seen an
unfortunately DEI do that in many respects. And as you mentioned,
you know, the initial I guess good intentions really do
those south and unfortunately really poison the well of medicine
as opposed to to really helping us focus on the
(03:48):
quality of the patient and the quality of the student
and the doctor that one will have when one is
in need of care.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I think most people, and I'm sure that there are
outliers to what I'm about to say, but I think
most people want a great doctor and how they look,
their background, their history doesn't really matter, Like I just
want a great doctor who knows how to deal with
whatever medical issue that I am dealing with.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And I think that to the point you were just making.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
This actually can have the effect of hurting underrepresented groups
in medicine if the perception exists that they were only
elevated to that position because of their race, They only
got their residency because of their race, and that's unfortunate,
and it really undermines the credibility of hard working minorities
(04:36):
who are well qualified and well trained and great doctors
to even have that shadow cast over them. I mean,
I think that should be a significant concern.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I think that's well said, Mandy, You're absolutely right. I mean,
folks want the very best when they're in the oar,
when they're in the er, wherever they are in that
medical system, that medical chain. You want the very best provider,
and you want to have confidence that that person is
the very best. And and how how awful that is
for someone who is underrepresented, who is highly qualified, who
is treating you. There should be no doubt that that
person is there because of their qualifications, and unfortunately Dion
(05:10):
has caused much of that undermining. And again, our focus
really should be on quality, on elevating the patient care
that's being delivered, and focusing on those things that really matter.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So let me ask this question about about this particular issue.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
This is in Connecticut.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
How many other programs like this exist across the country.
How many other complaints is do no harm and you know,
filing on a regular basis, How pervasive is this sort
of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, we do see this. I mean
we've seen it for the past years and know some
years ago Medical University of South Carolina believe was one
where we filed complaints. They change their ways, and that's
a positive. That's certainly what we want to see. We
want to see programs like this that have these externships
that are opened up to folks again of all colors
and creeds and allow really the best and the brightest
(05:59):
to be participt have beens in them. But unfortunately, there
are many programs that still exists that are out there
like this, and it's it is important for us to
file these complaints and to really again advocate for merit,
to advocate for excellence, and to promote that's that's what
Americans want, That's what we really need in medicine, and
certainly in this day and age, it's it's critical for
(06:19):
us to continue this work. So unfortunately, this is a
probably have seen elsewhere. We've seen it in various forms
in other locations, and we file similar OCR complaints in
terms of Guysing Aer and Duke University. So there are
others that are that are certainly there, and we again
Our hope is that in the end, as these investigations
are done, the universities will change those programs that will
(06:41):
open them up site. We have all students who are
able to apply and to be part of it, and
again for the best and the brightest to really be
those who are selected and continue to advance quality of medicine.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Let me ask for one point of clarification, because I
think I know this, but then I'm thinking about it.
I'm thinking maybe other people don't. I think people assume
that when you go to medical school you sort of
automatically get a residency. That's not how it happens. How
do people get a residency other than what we're talking
about now, which is an externship the fourth here. If
you don't have that, is it harder to get a residency?
(07:13):
Tell me about that process?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, no, certainly. These externships in some respects or auditions, right.
It gives you an opportunity to meet the folks that
are at another university that you haven't been going to
school at, and so it allows you to show your
stuff and to show to make those connections, to build
those bonds, and so in many respects they are an
audition and that's a good thing. It gives the resident,
the medical student a sense of what would it be
(07:37):
like to be a resident here, and likewise, it gives
the residency program a sense of what would it be
like to have that medical student here. And certainly if
they like you, they would be more likely to put
you into the match. And so what happens is that
during that fourth year of medical school, yeah, residence or
medical students are looking for residency programs and they're effectively
they're effectively interviewing there and they're then ranking them match system.
(08:00):
In March, the match results come out and so you
find out where we are. And really what that match
process is, it's very much like a dating process. You
would rank the top schools that you want to go
to for your residency. The residency programs ranked the top
residents that they would like to see, and there are
top medical students they'd like to see in their residency class,
and it goes into a mathematical formula and then you know,
you get a letter and you find out where you're going.
(08:22):
So's it is a competitive process. And you know, for
certain residency programs like dermatology, like orthopedic surgery, those are
very competitive, those are really extraordinarily high demand, and you know,
unfortunately what's happened in many medical schools is it's hard
for a residency program to distinguish who are the excellent
(08:44):
and the well qualified folks that should be in these programs,
partly because the USMLE it's our licensing exam that we
take the first part of that, which is given after
the second year of medical school is now past fail,
so there's no distinction there. So I think if you failed,
but there's no distinction within the past category of how
well did you pass and such. And likewise, many medical
schools have moved to grading systems that are pass failed
(09:06):
themselves and so there's no ABC or honors, high pass
and such, and it becomes very difficult to really tell
who should in the next neurosurgeon be or who should
the next plastic surgeon be. It becomes a highly, very
ambiguous and that makes these externships even more important, where
folks have the opportunity to really show who they are
(09:28):
and be able to build those relationships and perhaps match
into those programs. There's certainly other residency spots out there
that aren't as competitive, and you know, oftentimes those are
in the primary care fields, but nonetheless we still want
the very best, whether it's in primary care, and certainly
the specialties like the surgeries, the neurosurgeries and the like.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I am shocked to hear about the past fail thing.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But you know the old joke. I'm sure you've heard it.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
What do you call the person who graduated last in
medical school?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Doctor? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I mean there's still I guess passing, and honestly, like
I couldn't tell you what the rank of any of
my doctors are in medical school, but I will tell
you this, I have heard enough bad things about Ivy
League medical schools in the way that they are conducting
their business that it gives me pause before I would
see a new doctor who came out of Columbia or
came out of UCLA, or came out of some of
(10:20):
these premiere programs because of the kind of nonsense that
you're pushing back against. Now, I just want a great doctor.
That's all I want. Great doctor, don't care anything else
about you. Great doctor is all I need for it.
I'll let you have the last word.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. When I went to medical school,
we did hear the adage of P equals MD, pass
equals MD. But you know what that is. It's not
good for us to go to the lowest common denominator.
We should really want to excel. And I think that's
the point. Was an article in the Newland Dural Medicine
that spoke to that effect that unfortunately this diminishment of
really any sort of distinction has become problematic because people
(10:56):
aren't striving as hard. And I think if in any avenue,
we want healthcare to have folks who are striving hard
again really excelling in every way, shape and form if
they can, and unfortunately we're losing that, and it's important
for us to focus on that. And you know, we'd
love to have folks join Do No Harm, to really
join us in this cause of getting identity politics out
(11:17):
of medicine where at do noharmedicine dot org and likewise
keeping kids safe from gender ideology.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Doctor Kurt Mascelli, I put a link on my blog
today if people are driving so they don't have to
remember that. I appreciate your time today and I'll be
watching to see what happens at the University of Connecticut
because of your organization.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Appreciate it. Mandie, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
All Right, have a great day. That is doctor Kurt
Masseli with Do No Harm
We have.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
My next guest is with an organization called Do No Harm.
And Do No Harm is a group and I don't
know if it's all medical personnel in Do No Harm,
but they are working to drive this kind of political
gender ideology out of medicine. I might be paraphrasing a
little too generously there, but doctor Kurt Masseli is joining
(00:22):
me now to talk about a complaint they filed about
the University of Connecticut when it comes to limiting access
to certain externships.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
First of all, Kurt, welcome the show.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
First of all, I just.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Kind of badly encapsulated what Do No Harm does? Can
you tell my audience a little bit better what the
purpose of Do No Harm is and who's a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Absolutely so. We're an organization of over thirty thousand members,
and that could be medical people or non medical people, citizens, policymakers, physicians, nurses,
the whole nine yard. And we're focused on really two
main issues, and that's getting identity politics out of medicine
and also focusing on keeping kids safe from harmful gender ideology.
(01:11):
So those are our real two main focuses. We want
to bring medicine back to focusing on excellence, on quality,
on patients and not dealing with the social engineering and
the social justice movements and the other dei ideology that
has really taken it by storm.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I mentioned this too, doctor Masseli before we came on
the air. It's gotten to the point now where I'm
hearing terrible stories about the competency of some of the
medical students in various very high level programs. Like I
have already decided I will never see a doctor that's
come out of UCLA in the past ten years because
of some of the things I've heard there. But this
(01:49):
in Connecticut is one of those examples of a well
intended program that actually ends up being very racially biased.
So what did you guys file a complet specifically?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Absolutely so, As you mentioned, University of Connecticut School of
Medicine has an external clerkship program that they offer to
their fourth year medicals that offer fourth year medical students,
and so these are really coveted spots when you're our
fourth year medical student, you're in your last year, you're
looking to go to residency, and oftentimes these programs will
use these externships as a means of recruiting and attracting
(02:24):
those future residents there. And so they could be in drmatology,
they could be in internal medicine, they could be in
whatever field it might be that the university is offering.
And what University of Connecticut has done is they focus
this rotation, this externship, which offers a fifteen hundred dollars
scholarship as well to pay for travel and living expenses
while you're there for the four week rotation. They've offered
(02:45):
it really only to those underrepresentative medicine, and so those
who are Wide or Asian are really unable to apply.
And that's a big problem. That's a racial discrimination that's involved.
And again these are very much coveted spots. There are
spots that allow you to have effectively auditioned for the
residency program by making those connections, meeting folks and such.
And you know, it's certainly our belief that you should
(03:07):
be looking for the most qualified and exceptional folks and
no matter who they are, no matter what the color
of their skin is, they're dender their race, whatever they are,
whoever they are. The key is really flatting the most
qualified and best applicants and not again sort of socially
engineering this to just pick people of certain characteristics, and
you know that is just it's wrong from a moral standpoint,
(03:27):
it's certainly wrong from a legal standpoint, and it also
creates this terrible divisiveness in society, and we've seen an
unfortunately DEI do that in many respects. And as you mentioned,
you know, the initial I guess good intentions really do
those south and unfortunately really poison the well of medicine
as opposed to to really helping us focus on the
(03:48):
quality of the patient and the quality of the student
and the doctor that one will have when one is
in need of care.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I think most people, and I'm sure that there are
outliers to what I'm about to say, but I think
most people want a great doctor and how they look,
their background, their history doesn't really matter, Like I just
want a great doctor who knows how to deal with
whatever medical issue that I am dealing with.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
And I think that to the point you were just making.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
This actually can have the effect of hurting underrepresented groups
in medicine if the perception exists that they were only
elevated to that position because of their race, They only
got their residency because of their race, and that's unfortunate,
and it really undermines the credibility of hard working minorities
(04:36):
who are well qualified and well trained and great doctors
to even have that shadow cast over them. I mean,
I think that should be a significant concern.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I think that's well said, Mandy, You're absolutely right. I mean,
folks want the very best when they're in the oar,
when they're in the er, wherever they are in that
medical system, that medical chain. You want the very best provider,
and you want to have confidence that that person is
the very best. And and how how awful that is
for someone who is underrepresented, who is highly qualified, who
is treating you. There should be no doubt that that
person is there because of their qualifications, and unfortunately Dion
(05:10):
has caused much of that undermining. And again, our focus
really should be on quality, on elevating the patient care
that's being delivered, and focusing on those things that really matter.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So let me ask this question about about this particular issue.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
This is in Connecticut.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
How many other programs like this exist across the country.
How many other complaints is do no harm and you know,
filing on a regular basis, How pervasive is this sort
of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, we do see this. I mean
we've seen it for the past years and know some
years ago Medical University of South Carolina believe was one
where we filed complaints. They change their ways, and that's
a positive. That's certainly what we want to see. We
want to see programs like this that have these externships
that are opened up to folks again of all colors
and creeds and allow really the best and the brightest
(05:59):
to be participt have beens in them. But unfortunately, there
are many programs that still exists that are out there
like this, and it's it is important for us to
file these complaints and to really again advocate for merit,
to advocate for excellence, and to promote that's that's what
Americans want, That's what we really need in medicine, and
certainly in this day and age, it's it's critical for
(06:19):
us to continue this work. So unfortunately, this is a
probably have seen elsewhere. We've seen it in various forms
in other locations, and we file similar OCR complaints in
terms of Guysing Aer and Duke University. So there are
others that are that are certainly there, and we again
Our hope is that in the end, as these investigations
are done, the universities will change those programs that will
(06:41):
open them up site. We have all students who are
able to apply and to be part of it, and
again for the best and the brightest to really be
those who are selected and continue to advance quality of medicine.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Let me ask for one point of clarification, because I
think I know this, but then I'm thinking about it.
I'm thinking maybe other people don't. I think people assume
that when you go to medical school you sort of
automatically get a residency. That's not how it happens. How
do people get a residency other than what we're talking
about now, which is an externship the fourth here. If
you don't have that, is it harder to get a residency?
(07:13):
Tell me about that process?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, no, certainly. These externships in some respects or auditions, right.
It gives you an opportunity to meet the folks that
are at another university that you haven't been going to
school at, and so it allows you to show your
stuff and to show to make those connections, to build
those bonds, and so in many respects they are an
audition and that's a good thing. It gives the resident,
the medical student a sense of what would it be
(07:37):
like to be a resident here, and likewise, it gives
the residency program a sense of what would it be
like to have that medical student here. And certainly if
they like you, they would be more likely to put
you into the match. And so what happens is that
during that fourth year of medical school, yeah, residence or
medical students are looking for residency programs and they're effectively
they're effectively interviewing there and they're then ranking them match system.
(08:00):
In March, the match results come out and so you
find out where we are. And really what that match
process is, it's very much like a dating process. You
would rank the top schools that you want to go
to for your residency. The residency programs ranked the top
residents that they would like to see, and there are
top medical students they'd like to see in their residency class,
and it goes into a mathematical formula and then you know,
you get a letter and you find out where you're going.
(08:22):
So's it is a competitive process. And you know, for
certain residency programs like dermatology, like orthopedic surgery, those are
very competitive, those are really extraordinarily high demand, and you know,
unfortunately what's happened in many medical schools is it's hard
for a residency program to distinguish who are the excellent
(08:44):
and the well qualified folks that should be in these programs,
partly because the USMLE it's our licensing exam that we
take the first part of that, which is given after
the second year of medical school is now past fail,
so there's no distinction there. So I think if you failed,
but there's no distinction within the past category of how
well did you pass and such. And likewise, many medical
schools have moved to grading systems that are pass failed
(09:06):
themselves and so there's no ABC or honors, high pass
and such, and it becomes very difficult to really tell
who should in the next neurosurgeon be or who should
the next plastic surgeon be. It becomes a highly, very
ambiguous and that makes these externships even more important, where
folks have the opportunity to really show who they are
(09:28):
and be able to build those relationships and perhaps match
into those programs. There's certainly other residency spots out there
that aren't as competitive, and you know, oftentimes those are
in the primary care fields, but nonetheless we still want
the very best, whether it's in primary care, and certainly
the specialties like the surgeries, the neurosurgeries and the like.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
I am shocked to hear about the past fail thing.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But you know the old joke. I'm sure you've heard it.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
What do you call the person who graduated last in
medical school?
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Doctor? Right?
Speaker 2 (09:58):
I mean there's still I guess passing, and honestly, like
I couldn't tell you what the rank of any of
my doctors are in medical school, but I will tell
you this, I have heard enough bad things about Ivy
League medical schools in the way that they are conducting
their business that it gives me pause before I would
see a new doctor who came out of Columbia or
came out of UCLA, or came out of some of
(10:20):
these premiere programs because of the kind of nonsense that
you're pushing back against. Now, I just want a great doctor.
That's all I want. Great doctor, don't care anything else
about you. Great doctor is all I need for it.
I'll let you have the last word.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. When I went to medical school,
we did hear the adage of P equals MD, pass
equals MD. But you know what that is. It's not
good for us to go to the lowest common denominator.
We should really want to excel. And I think that's
the point. Was an article in the Newland Dural Medicine
that spoke to that effect that unfortunately this diminishment of
really any sort of distinction has become problematic because people
(10:56):
aren't striving as hard. And I think if in any avenue,
we want healthcare to have folks who are striving hard
again really excelling in every way, shape and form if
they can, and unfortunately we're losing that, and it's important
for us to focus on that. And you know, we'd
love to have folks join Do No Harm, to really
join us in this cause of getting identity politics out
(11:17):
of medicine where at do noharmedicine dot org and likewise
keeping kids safe from gender ideology.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Doctor Kurt Mascelli, I put a link on my blog
today if people are driving so they don't have to
remember that. I appreciate your time today and I'll be
watching to see what happens at the University of Connecticut
because of your organization.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Appreciate it. Mandie, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
All Right, have a great day. That is doctor Kurt
Masseli with Do No Harm
The Mandy Connell Podcast News
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