Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now I've got another interview with another very impressive woman.
Jennifer Say was an executive at Levi's after a long
career as a gymnast and other things. When she decided
to speak up against the COVID mandates that kept kids
out of school and the damage that those mandates did.
It created a huge problem for her at Levi's. And
(00:20):
now she has gone her own way and has created
a fantastic sportswear company all of her own because she
wasn't going to be silenced when it came to talking
about protecting our kids. And she is going to be
doing that very thing at a rally coming up October
fifth at ten am at the Capitol Building in Denver. Obviously,
(00:40):
it's with gays against groomers. It's the Stop the War
on Children rally. And Jennifer Say, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I want to ask you, as a former gymnast and
as a former competitor, do you feel a special sort
of agency when we talk about men and women's sports
and men in women's spaces.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I mean, do you take that kind of personally?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, I think what I take personally is the desire
to protect female athletes, and I have been standing up
for female athletes for almost twenty years. I was the
very first gymnast to call out the abuse happening that
was happening, and it is still happening in the sport,
the emotional, physical, and sexual abuse happening in the sport.
(01:30):
You know, I was vilified for it at the time
when I wrote my first book in two thousand and eight,
but of course then the Larry Nacer case happened ten
years later and everybody came around to what I had
been saying, and so I feel like this is an
extension of that. I was a young athlete for many
years competing at the highest level. I was not protected
(01:51):
by the governing bodies. The governing bodies will not do
the right thing until they are forced to. They allowed
abuse to go unchecked for five decades in gymnast, and
I feel that they are equally neglectful when it comes
to protecting female athletes from males entering their sports and spaces.
Women deserve women and girls deserve safety, privacy, and fairness,
(02:13):
period and they're not getting it because of work politics.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It seems absurd that after all of the fights to
get Title nine in place, to protect women's sports, to
give them opportunities at the college level and at the
high school level where they were going to be able
to compete with other women, that we are now having
a conversation that you and I are vilified for saying
women deserve their own spaces and someone who was born
(02:41):
a male who has gone through puberty should not be
competing with physical females because of the physical advantage.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I sometimes I think, are we crazy town? Are we
an upside down world?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I mean, could you have even imagined this as you
were talking about abuse?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
No? No, And it's the left, which I used to
be a part of, but the left is gone and
sanging on this particular issue. And suddenly a woman or
a girl is anyone who says they're a woman or
a girl, and it's just playing me to tell them
they aren't. Well they aren't. And girls and women deserve
their own sports and spaces. They deserve privacy, safety and fairness.
(03:20):
Let me, can I tell you a very quick story
about I was at my daughter's soccer practice last night.
My daughter was seven years old. She plays on an
all girls soccer team. It's a pretty recrea. It's like
one tiny half step up from wreck. You know, she's
a little She wore a T shirt from my brand
that said xxx y Athletics on it last night at
the practice, and someone who I've known for a couple
(03:43):
of years, friendly parent at the soccer game, always been
nice aways. I'm always nice and friendly. She came up
to me at the end of practice and I was like, Oh, no,
here we go, here we go. What's going to happen?
I could see it from the look on her face.
And she said, I don't know if you know what
Ruth's shirt Ruth is my daughter's name, what her shirt means.
(04:05):
And I didn't reveal to her that it was my brand,
and of course I know what it means. I said, yes,
I know what it means. It's very important for me
to protect girls' sports. I think it's really important.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And then she kind of, you know, went she, you know,
went down this whole rabbit hole about emotional safety and
how we both agree on protecting girls, but she wants
to protect all girls, and in her mind, all girls
as anyone who says they're a girl.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
And I said, I was an elite athlete. I feel
very strongly about protecting women's sports and opportunities as being
for XX only, XX chromosomes only. So her primary beef
with me and I, of course, was very calm, and
I'll tell you, even as someone who's very outspoken on
this issue, there were moments where I wanted to just
(04:51):
shrink and run away, like it's very different to have
a conversation with someone in person. But I forced myself
to stay calm and kind but also firm. And what
I resent. You know, what she asked of me at
the end, and we clearly didn't agree, was that my
daughter does not wear the shirt to practice. And I
did not agree to that. Because here's the thing. We
(05:15):
can't be silent. They're telling us that even raising this
issue in the most rational, calm way is to me,
it's hate speech. It's harmful to people. Well, I'm sorry.
I care about the girls that are being harmed by
competing against male athletes. I care about Peyton McNabb, the
volleyball player in North Carolina who has a permanent brain
(05:36):
injury now and has cognitive issues because she was spiked
with the ball in the head by a male player.
And I raised that with this woman who is very nice,
and she seemed more concerned about this supposed emotional harm
than the actual physical harm that I was talking about.
And so it comes down, you know what, to what
I would call corruption of our language. And for too long,
(05:59):
I think we allowed it to happen. We were being nice,
and if they wanted trans women to be called women,
you know, we kind of went along. Well, once you
concede that point that trans women are women, then you
cannot say they cannot compete in women's sports. And that's
what was kind of the conflict in this conversation last night,
because she kept saying, well, I want to support and
protect all girls and all women, and what she was
(06:21):
including in all girls and all women were x Y.
So I just we have to draw really firm line
in the sand here and not I can't be nice anymore.
And if it's mean and it's hate speech to say
that trans women are men, trans women are male, they
cannot compete in women's sports, I will do it nicely.
(06:42):
I will never use, you know, harsh language, but I
will speak the truth and I won't give an inch
on the language.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I agree that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
You know, there's an old adage, he who controls the
language controls the world, because when someone forces you to
change the way you're speaking, they're trying to change the
way you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
That's the ultimate goal.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And for the women you talked to last night, perfect example,
I know that when she was a child, it never
occurred to her that a boy could say he was
a girl, and all of a sudden, you're going to
put him in pigtails.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And call him a girl. But yet here we are.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And because nice kind people don't want to be thought
of as anything other than nice kind people, they're going
to express those concerns for people's feelings right over the
concerns and feelings of all the other.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Girls, the x X girls. And that is what I
don't get.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well. And I think the thing that's so there's so
many things that are disturbing about this. You know, my
brand has been permanently suspended from TikTok, And in a
recent conversation that I had with some of the folks
at TikTok, they were very explicit and clear with me
that the reason we were banned is there's a line
in our ad that says, if you think it isn't
fair or safe for males to compete in girls sports.
(07:54):
They said that that was misgendering because we said that
we were implying that a group was made that was
not now because they're trans what you get by points,
So we were misgendering and therefore it's hate speech. So
what is so upsetting about this? And it's very much
in line with the conversation I had last night. It's
(08:16):
this idea of harm from language. And if it's determined
to be hate speech and you can't say it, and
my daughter can't wear the shirt because it's hate speech
and it's harmful. I don't think anybody was harmed at
soccer practice last night, then it erases the issue. It
takes away because you're right, if you change the language,
you change the way we think and talk about things.
(08:37):
So I'm not allowed to even clearly talk about the
issue on TikTok, supposedly not supposed to have my daughter
wear the shirt that you know is about the issue
that provokes conversations, often very positive conversations, and so it
sort of disappears the issue. These people are women, these
people are girls. Of course they can compete with girls.
What are you even talking about? If you say anything
(08:58):
else it's hate speech. Well I'm sorry, I am done
with their rules. We were foolish to give an inch
and I'm sure at some point I gave an inch
and you just you can't. And again, I'm never going
to be rude or mean, but I am going to
hold the line and I'm going to wear the shirt
at every soccer game. And this is why try to
(09:19):
kick us out.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And this is why Jennifer Say is going to be
speaking at the Gaze Against Groomers Stop the War on
Children rally happening October fifth at ten a m. You are,
this is a great lineup of speakers that you're going
to be speaking with, and I'm glad that you guys
and Gays against Groomers are are continuing to drive this conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And Jennifer, I just I you.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Know, I love that you are so open about your
evolution from being one of those people that kind of
got caught in the group think when you were at
Levi's and then when you started asking questions, it became
a parent that more questions needed to be asked.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And I commend you for.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Continuing to ask those questions because.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
It's hard to do what you did it's hard to
say I'm no longer going to be in the.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Same social circles, the same professional circles. What you did
was it was a large degree of personal sacrifice, and
I just want to say I appreciate that, and every
parent who thinks the way you think, we appreciate that.
We appreciate you putting yourself out there on behalf of
all the kids who just want to play sports and
just want to compete in a way that they may
(10:25):
be able to.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Win if they work hard enough at it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I mean, I competed as an elite athlete. I lost
a lot. You do. You lose more than you win,
and I can always accept losing. I learned to lose.
I learned resilience, I learned to keep trying. It was
a fair fight. I don't think I could have accepted
losing against someone that was using steroids, for instance, which
we all accept is not fair. And you know, sex
provides greater advantage athletic advantage than a drug. It's a
(10:55):
bigger difference in performance male versus female, than male on
steroids versus mail not on steroids. So I just want
I want my daughter to have every opportunity I had
afforded to me through title mind and that feels very
much at risk to me. And this is not I know,
it's become political and my view is coded as very
right wing. This is just about truth. It should not
(11:16):
be right versus left. We need to make this about
what is true. Biology is real, sex is minary. Men
cannot become women and girls and women deserve safety, privacy,
and fairness. It's really that simple. And unless we make
it about the truth, I fear we'll never get There's
a large percentage of Democrats that agree with us. I
(11:37):
have seen that afraid to say it out loud.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, well, you're giving them the opportunity we need them.
And Jennifer, this rally is going to be incredible. I
look forward to seeing you and seeing everybody speak, and
thank you so much for making time for us.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
All right, that's Jennifer say
Now I've got another interview with another very impressive woman.
Jennifer Say was an executive at Levi's after a long
career as a gymnast and other things. When she decided
to speak up against the COVID mandates that kept kids
out of school and the damage that those mandates did.
It created a huge problem for her at Levi's. And
(00:20):
now she has gone her own way and has created
a fantastic sportswear company all of her own because she
wasn't going to be silenced when it came to talking
about protecting our kids. And she is going to be
doing that very thing at a rally coming up October
fifth at ten am at the Capitol Building in Denver. Obviously,
(00:40):
it's with gays against groomers. It's the Stop the War
on Children rally. And Jennifer Say, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I want to ask you, as a former gymnast and
as a former competitor, do you feel a special sort
of agency when we talk about men and women's sports
and men in women's spaces.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I mean, do you take that kind of personally?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well, I think what I take personally is the desire
to protect female athletes, and I have been standing up
for female athletes for almost twenty years. I was the
very first gymnast to call out the abuse happening that
was happening, and it is still happening in the sport,
the emotional, physical, and sexual abuse happening in the sport.
(01:30):
You know, I was vilified for it at the time
when I wrote my first book in two thousand and eight,
but of course then the Larry Nacer case happened ten
years later and everybody came around to what I had
been saying, and so I feel like this is an
extension of that. I was a young athlete for many
years competing at the highest level. I was not protected
(01:51):
by the governing bodies. The governing bodies will not do
the right thing until they are forced to. They allowed
abuse to go unchecked for five decades in gymnast, and
I feel that they are equally neglectful when it comes
to protecting female athletes from males entering their sports and spaces.
Women deserve women and girls deserve safety, privacy, and fairness,
(02:13):
period and they're not getting it because of work politics.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It seems absurd that after all of the fights to
get Title nine in place, to protect women's sports, to
give them opportunities at the college level and at the
high school level where they were going to be able
to compete with other women, that we are now having
a conversation that you and I are vilified for saying
women deserve their own spaces and someone who was born
(02:41):
a male who has gone through puberty should not be
competing with physical females because of the physical advantage.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I sometimes I think, are we crazy town? Are we
an upside down world?
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I mean, could you have even imagined this as you
were talking about abuse?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
No? No, And it's the left, which I used to
be a part of, but the left is gone and
sanging on this particular issue. And suddenly a woman or
a girl is anyone who says they're a woman or
a girl, and it's just playing me to tell them
they aren't. Well they aren't. And girls and women deserve
their own sports and spaces. They deserve privacy, safety and fairness.
(03:20):
Let me, can I tell you a very quick story
about I was at my daughter's soccer practice last night.
My daughter was seven years old. She plays on an
all girls soccer team. It's a pretty recrea. It's like
one tiny half step up from wreck. You know, she's
a little She wore a T shirt from my brand
that said xxx y Athletics on it last night at
the practice, and someone who I've known for a couple
(03:43):
of years, friendly parent at the soccer game, always been
nice aways. I'm always nice and friendly. She came up
to me at the end of practice and I was like, Oh, no,
here we go, here we go. What's going to happen?
I could see it from the look on her face.
And she said, I don't know if you know what
Ruth's shirt Ruth is my daughter's name, what her shirt means.
(04:05):
And I didn't reveal to her that it was my brand,
and of course I know what it means. I said, yes,
I know what it means. It's very important for me
to protect girls' sports. I think it's really important.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And then she kind of, you know, went she, you know,
went down this whole rabbit hole about emotional safety and
how we both agree on protecting girls, but she wants
to protect all girls, and in her mind, all girls
as anyone who says they're a girl.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
And I said, I was an elite athlete. I feel
very strongly about protecting women's sports and opportunities as being
for XX only, XX chromosomes only. So her primary beef
with me and I, of course, was very calm, and
I'll tell you, even as someone who's very outspoken on
this issue, there were moments where I wanted to just
(04:51):
shrink and run away, like it's very different to have
a conversation with someone in person. But I forced myself
to stay calm and kind but also firm. And what
I resent. You know, what she asked of me at
the end, and we clearly didn't agree, was that my
daughter does not wear the shirt to practice. And I
did not agree to that. Because here's the thing. We
(05:15):
can't be silent. They're telling us that even raising this
issue in the most rational, calm way is to me,
it's hate speech. It's harmful to people. Well, I'm sorry.
I care about the girls that are being harmed by
competing against male athletes. I care about Peyton McNabb, the
volleyball player in North Carolina who has a permanent brain
(05:36):
injury now and has cognitive issues because she was spiked
with the ball in the head by a male player.
And I raised that with this woman who is very nice,
and she seemed more concerned about this supposed emotional harm
than the actual physical harm that I was talking about.
And so it comes down, you know what, to what
I would call corruption of our language. And for too long,
(05:59):
I think we allowed it to happen. We were being nice,
and if they wanted trans women to be called women,
you know, we kind of went along. Well, once you
concede that point that trans women are women, then you
cannot say they cannot compete in women's sports. And that's
what was kind of the conflict in this conversation last night,
because she kept saying, well, I want to support and
protect all girls and all women, and what she was
(06:21):
including in all girls and all women were x Y.
So I just we have to draw really firm line
in the sand here and not I can't be nice anymore.
And if it's mean and it's hate speech to say
that trans women are men, trans women are male, they
cannot compete in women's sports, I will do it nicely.
(06:42):
I will never use, you know, harsh language, but I
will speak the truth and I won't give an inch
on the language.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
I agree that.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
You know, there's an old adage, he who controls the
language controls the world, because when someone forces you to
change the way you're speaking, they're trying to change the
way you're thinking.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
That's the ultimate goal.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
And for the women you talked to last night, perfect example,
I know that when she was a child, it never
occurred to her that a boy could say he was
a girl, and all of a sudden, you're going to
put him in pigtails.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
And call him a girl. But yet here we are.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And because nice kind people don't want to be thought
of as anything other than nice kind people, they're going
to express those concerns for people's feelings right over the
concerns and feelings of all the other.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Girls, the x X girls. And that is what I
don't get.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well. And I think the thing that's so there's so
many things that are disturbing about this. You know, my
brand has been permanently suspended from TikTok, And in a
recent conversation that I had with some of the folks
at TikTok, they were very explicit and clear with me
that the reason we were banned is there's a line
in our ad that says, if you think it isn't
fair or safe for males to compete in girls sports.
(07:54):
They said that that was misgendering because we said that
we were implying that a group was made that was
not now because they're trans what you get by points,
So we were misgendering and therefore it's hate speech. So
what is so upsetting about this? And it's very much
in line with the conversation I had last night. It's
(08:16):
this idea of harm from language. And if it's determined
to be hate speech and you can't say it, and
my daughter can't wear the shirt because it's hate speech
and it's harmful. I don't think anybody was harmed at
soccer practice last night, then it erases the issue. It
takes away because you're right, if you change the language,
you change the way we think and talk about things.
(08:37):
So I'm not allowed to even clearly talk about the
issue on TikTok, supposedly not supposed to have my daughter
wear the shirt that you know is about the issue
that provokes conversations, often very positive conversations, and so it
sort of disappears the issue. These people are women, these
people are girls. Of course they can compete with girls.
What are you even talking about? If you say anything
(08:58):
else it's hate speech. Well I'm sorry, I am done
with their rules. We were foolish to give an inch
and I'm sure at some point I gave an inch
and you just you can't. And again, I'm never going
to be rude or mean, but I am going to
hold the line and I'm going to wear the shirt
at every soccer game. And this is why try to
(09:19):
kick us out.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
And this is why Jennifer Say is going to be
speaking at the Gaze Against Groomers Stop the War on
Children rally happening October fifth at ten a m. You are,
this is a great lineup of speakers that you're going
to be speaking with, and I'm glad that you guys
and Gays against Groomers are are continuing to drive this conversation.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
And Jennifer, I just I you.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Know, I love that you are so open about your
evolution from being one of those people that kind of
got caught in the group think when you were at
Levi's and then when you started asking questions, it became
a parent that more questions needed to be asked.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
And I commend you for.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Continuing to ask those questions because.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
It's hard to do what you did it's hard to
say I'm no longer going to be in the.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Same social circles, the same professional circles. What you did
was it was a large degree of personal sacrifice, and
I just want to say I appreciate that, and every
parent who thinks the way you think, we appreciate that.
We appreciate you putting yourself out there on behalf of
all the kids who just want to play sports and
just want to compete in a way that they may
(10:25):
be able to.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Win if they work hard enough at it.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
I mean, I competed as an elite athlete. I lost
a lot. You do. You lose more than you win,
and I can always accept losing. I learned to lose.
I learned resilience, I learned to keep trying. It was
a fair fight. I don't think I could have accepted
losing against someone that was using steroids, for instance, which
we all accept is not fair. And you know, sex
provides greater advantage athletic advantage than a drug. It's a
(10:55):
bigger difference in performance male versus female, than male on
steroids versus mail not on steroids. So I just want
I want my daughter to have every opportunity I had
afforded to me through title mind and that feels very
much at risk to me. And this is not I know,
it's become political and my view is coded as very
right wing. This is just about truth. It should not
(11:16):
be right versus left. We need to make this about
what is true. Biology is real, sex is minary. Men
cannot become women and girls and women deserve safety, privacy,
and fairness. It's really that simple. And unless we make
it about the truth, I fear we'll never get There's
a large percentage of Democrats that agree with us. I
(11:37):
have seen that afraid to say it out loud.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, well, you're giving them the opportunity we need them.
And Jennifer, this rally is going to be incredible. I
look forward to seeing you and seeing everybody speak, and
thank you so much for making time for us.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
All right, that's Jennifer say
The Mandy Connell Podcast News
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com