October 21, 2024 • 19 mins
A NEW BOOK TO CRY OVER But only because noted psychiatrist Judith Orloff has a new book out called The Genius of Empathy:Practical Skills to Heal Your Sensitive Self, Your Relationships, and the World. In it, she is drawing on insights from neuroscience, psychology, and energy medicine, Dr. Orloff shows us how to access our sensitivities, soothe our nervous system, and stop absorbing the emotions of others. She begins with the magic of empathy to find greater self-love and healing–including from trauma. Subsequent chapters apply empathy to our relationships, communities, and the world. Exploring each chapter’s practices, you’ll learn the art of empathic listening, how to stop overthinking, and the importance of setting healthy boundaries and loving detachment to prevent overwhelm, burnout, and more. Find out more about Dr. Orloff here, she joins me at 1pm to discuss.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm pleased, very pleased to have a woman. I've seen
her on television a million times. Doctor Judith Orloff is
a psychiatrist and a prolific writer, and she's got a
new book out called The Genius of Empathy, Practical Skills
to heal your sensitive self, your relationships and the world.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Doctor Orloff, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Thank you very much. I'm happy to be on.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
So let me start with a very basic question. We're
going to start right at the beginning. What is empathy
and why does it matter?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Yes, empathy is our ability to come from our hearts
and to feel what other people are feeling, and to
care about other people and to connect with other people,
now as opposed to someone who doesn't have empathy, who
such as a narcissist, who is not able to do that.
So it's our ability to reach out to others and
for others to say I feel what you're feeling, and
(00:57):
I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You know, I hear you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So it seems that right now we're a little bit
short on empathy for our fellow humans who may disagree
with us about politics or disagree with us about about
pretty much anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Is this the natural.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
State of the human condition when it comes to empathy
or have we lost our way from what our natural
state should be?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I think we've lost our way from what our natural
state should be. Empathy is a key to being human,
and if you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't
have empathy, you're going to be in bad shape because
they're not going to care about how you're feeling. And
so as humans, as developing humans and being the best
(01:43):
we can be, it's important that we reignite our empathy
and allow it to grow and to be able to
give our loved ones empathy and caring rather than being
cold or shut off or numb. Empathy allows you to
send to other people and to experience love. If you
(02:03):
have no one in your life who has empathy, you're
going to feel like you're missing something very important.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So is empathy a learned behavior or are you born
with it?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And if it isn't any quality?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Can we have varying degrees of empathy within our population?
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yes, we can have varying degrees and some people are
born with it. When I was doing my obgyn rotation
at USC during my medical school, I see some babies
come out they have empathy and they just seem to care.
And other babies come out they're not interested, you know,
they don't have that same sensitivity. So I call sensitive
(02:48):
children empaths. And there's some of us who are empaths,
who are very sensitive and need to find the balance.
So we don't give too much empathy and too much
of ourself away, but to be able to develop this
beautiful skill.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
You know, in our lives, empathy.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I write about empathy for ourselves as well as others.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So how do we go about the process.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
If maybe you realize you've become cynical and jaded. I
might be talking about me here, but you've become cynical
or jaded, and you want to reignite your empathy. What
are some of the things that you recommend that someone
can do to recapture or even grow their ability to
be empathetic.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, the first thing you could do is to be
able to just ask someone how they're doing and listen,
because empathic listening is a skill. You're not checking your phone,
you're not doing anything else, you're not looking around, You're
right there with the person. I'm right there with you listening.
How are you doing? You know?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And then you establish a connection with someone.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
That's the first way is to not be in a
million other places when you're trying to to someone you love.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
That is in today's world of distractions, that seems like
a herculean taskue sometimes.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It is, but it's so important it depends. It really
shapes the quality of your life. I mean, empathy to
me is the most important trait that I have, and
it's the trait that can cause us to be kind
to ourselves. You know, when we're at three o'clock in
the morning and our mind's going mile a minute with
all the things we're worried about, now, that's the time
(04:32):
to bring empathy in. If you don't, you're just going
to be torturing yourself. And every night those voices will
swirl around and round. But if you can say to yourself, you.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Know, you had a hard day.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
These are really hard people to deal with at work,
and I'm trying my best. And so you talk to
yourself in a loving tone as opposed to what's wrong
with you? Why can't you keep up with everyone? What's
wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
You know? And that's a.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Very destructive voice because neurochemically that throws you off.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
When you're mean to yourself.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
That gets the stress hormones flowing, and it decreases the endorphins,
the natural painkillers. And when you're empathic, it increases the
endorphins and natural painkillers and all the beautiful hormones in
our body that can make us feel good.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I mean that sounds that sounds really it sounds like
it's okay. I'm trying to think of the best way
to say this. I understand what you're saying. This is
something I struggle with, and it's something I've struggled with
my entire life. I don't have a lot of patience
for people that I perceive to be making the same
(05:45):
bad choices over and over again. You know, I don't
have a lot of patience with people who may be
struggling with something for a long period of time. These
are things that I've always viewed as character flaws for me.
So how do I get past that in my own
journey to be a more empathetic human being.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Well, you know, as a psychiatrist, I've been in practice,
you know, over twenty five years, and I've sat with
so many people, and each person has their own timeline
on how they can deal with something sometimes now is
not the right time. But as a friend, if they
keep going round and round the same thing over and
over and over again, you don't want to sit and
(06:26):
listen to it. You want to say, you know, I
hear what you're saying, and when you're ready for a solution,
I'm here and I love you, I care about you,
but I can't keep listening to it.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But the way you set the boundaries.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Setting boundaries is key when people are going on and
on and not getting anywhere. I mean, I won't sit
with the patient who's going round and around and not
getting anywhere. If they come in week after week the
same thing. You know, I need to address that with them,
you know, and the same with yourself. You can say
I'm not able to listen, you know, for two hours
on the phone again, and I'm here if you want
(07:02):
a solution in the meantime, here's someone who might be
able to help you now. But the tone of your voice,
you don't want to be nasty, you know, you want
to have an empathic tone, because when you're impatient, you
tend to get nasty and that's only going to hurt
the other person. And what you want to do is
just set limits for yourself so you don't have to
(07:23):
keep hearing it over and over again and so you
don't develop a resentment. Right.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
We have a lot of text messages on our text
line asking questions doctor Orloff, and one of them is Mandy,
what is the difference between empathy, sympathy and compassion.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Well, sympathy is when you feel sad for somebody, if
somebody has a loss and you have sent a sympathy card.
And the difference between empathy and compassion is that compassion
is more action oriented. Well, let's say your neighbor, you know,
is unable to go to the market for himself, and
so you take it and empathic action go shopping for
(08:02):
him and bring him up the bags up three flights upstairs.
That's compassion. Empathy is more I feel for him, you know,
and my heart goes out to him. And then compassion
is your ability to go into action.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, so they're they're interconnected maybe, but different, Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
A little bit different.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I just want to say that Don Wumma wrote the
forewords for this book and he deals with which I'm
thrilled about. And he wrote the difference between empathy and
compassion and the lines are not.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That that's straight.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
You know there there's some difference that he talks about
it together.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
This person asked specifically, are men more empathetic now than
in previous generations?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Great question, Some men, not all men.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
If you have a narcissist, sociopath or a psychopath where
I have a whole chapter on these type of people
who have what's called empathy deficient disorder, they literally don't
have empathy. So now everyone who's listening, you have to
wrap your mind around the fact that some people don't
have empathy. They're not wired to have empathy, all right,
(09:14):
and so they're not going to be developing more empathy.
What they're into is power over you. They're not into love,
they're not into caring. But the men who have developed it,
I know that the new paradigm.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I believe this.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Strongly for a new man as somebody who's able to
cry at times and be sensitive and strong, not a weakling,
but somebody who's stronger because they're able to deal with
their emotions at least some of them, and they're not
afraid of it.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
You don't want somebody who's.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
A kind of like a bait shot and cut off.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
And not into their emotions. And I'm so tough, you know.
And the tough people, as we were talking about, you know, can.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Be tough and tender, you know, they can have that
spot in themselves that can cry something times or you know,
be sweet and gentle and they're big, you know, a man.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
They're like, you know, real men. They're not.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
A fear that many people have that I write about
in the book is people are afraid of becoming overly feminized,
you know. And that's not what empathy is. Not want
what healthy empathy is. Healthy empathy is finding the balance
between your masculine and feminine side. It's about being strong
and able to assert yourself and set boundaries and be
(10:29):
kind as well as you know, be able to handle life,
you know, and.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Deal with it in a strong way.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So I want to dispel the myth that empathy is weakness.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
It's not weakness, not when it's balanced.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And I do think I'm a big fan of crying
at the right appropriate time because crying at the right
appropriate time can make a huge difference. It can be
a physical release that allows you to sort of have
a moment and then you pull yourself together and you'll
wipe this out off your nose, and you move forward
and you go about your day. And I know that
that is something that you've kind of addressed. The healthy
(11:03):
side of crying. How do you know if you are
doing healthy crying or if you probably need some help
because you're doing too much crying.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Well, you have to see how it's affecting you first
and foremost, and how it affects the people around you.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
If you're crying.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Let's say you have a sad event that happened and
tears come into your eyes and that's okay, and that might,
you know, last, depending on how big the event is,
that might last because grieving is you know, crying is
part of grieving, So it's a way of working the
event through your system, you see. But if you're crying
(11:40):
all the time and everything and you can't get it
together to center yourself, that's too much. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
You know, either you have a you know, a.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Depression that needs to be looked at, or you know
you have to learn to breathe the center yourself and
maybe call a friend and find a friend to express
this with, especially supportive, loving friends. You know, there's the
issue that I write about in the book about crying
it at work?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, is it a good thing to cry at work?
Or is that a problem?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And from what I have seen, most workplaces, most not all,
do not welcome crying, you know, very you know, with open.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Arms now, and they tend to.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Come down on people who cry and look at it
as a weakness. And then criers tend to be bullied,
and especially children who are crying a lot tend to
be bullied.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And so I don't think it's a good idea.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Unless you have a really supportive coworker and say let's
go out for a walk and hear she can just
you know, be okay with it.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
You know, it's a to me, it's a.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Beautiful thing when somebody cries, it's real. But if it
goes beyond that, if you can't stop it, because I
know a lot of people who are very depressed, they
can't stop it. It just goes on and on. So
it's it doesn't give you energy, it perhaps you So
in those cases you have to look.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Uh, as one who has had one.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Episode at work where I cried, I don't look back
with a fondness, with fondness that they were anger, they
were murder tears though I was crying, so I didn't
murder someone, So I'm gonna give myself a pass on that.
Soone asked an interesting question, and I don't know if
I have enough information. This texter said, what if you
can't cry?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I don't know if that's a.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Physical thing that you you have to be able to
make tears or your eyes would be permanently dry.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, I'm.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Guessing they mean that that they are just they don't cry.
I mean, how does that? How does one get beyond that?
Or do you even need to or are they capable
of expressing that emotion without the actual crying.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well, some people I get asked that question a lot
because things happen to people in their lifetimes and it
might stop their ability to cry. Maybe it's passed trauma,
or maybe it's being bullied for crying, or if they
had a really bad association with what it means to cry.
And so I had patients who really want to open
that up again and see if they can open their emotions,
(14:13):
because when you don't cry, it is shutting down your
emotions to a certain extent. But there's usually something that
caused them not to cry, and it's up to you
whether you want to reignite the crying again and explore
empathy and everything that that means. I would encourage you
to do that, but it's not the right time for
(14:33):
everyone to do that. So I think crying is a
well balanced expression of who we are as human.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It's the way to release stress.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
We actually release stress hormones when we cry, so it's
a very positive, helpful thing for the body to heal.
But if someone's not emotionally ready, who ever asked this question, she's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Not ready, don't do it.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
You only do it if you're curious and you might
feel ready to open up your heart in that way.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Doctor Judith Orloff is my guest.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
She's a psychiatrist and the author of the Genius of Empathy,
Practical Skills to Heal your sensitive self, your relationships, and
the world.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Doctor Orloff, I have several.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Questions on the text line about boundaries setting, and many
people saying, how do you even begin to set boundaries?
And I think the very nature of that question would
indicate that these people have no clue because they've never
done it.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So how do you if you are in a.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Relationship where you feel like you need to set boundaries,
but you haven't yet. How do you begin that process
in a long term relationship to say okay, now, this
is not.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay with me? What does that even look like.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, you have to.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Get to know the word no, because if you're a
people pleaser, or you have been so far and you
just want people to be happy, you want to be
everything to be peaceful.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
You don't want to have any conflict.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
You know, you have to use the word no, you know,
in order to set a boundary. But the way you
say it. I can't emphasize this enough. This is the
genius of empathy. Is the way you say it that you.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Can be heard.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
You say it with a very kind tone. No, I'm
so sorry. I can't help you with that project now
because I'm already swamped, but I wish.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
You good luck with it.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
And the way you say it is very short. You
don't apologize at length. You don't get into a big
confrontation with somebody.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
You practice.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The first step to empathy and setting boundaries is practicing
how to say no. And my patients often do that
with me in the office. So you might want to
find a friend or you could practice saying no. It
may be hard to even get out. You know, no,
I can't do this because you're so used to being
the peacemaker or the adult in the family, or if
(16:56):
you came from a dysfunctional family, you could never say no.
You have to, you know, take care of everything, so
that that's where you practice that and then you begin
to notice what doesn't feel.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Right to you and boundary.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
You know, with boundary setting, so you don't want to
say yes to things that don't feel right. You know,
you want like if you go ahead with a job,
if you go ahead with a relationship, if you go
ahead with a discussion with your spouse, you want it
to feel right. You want your approach to feel right.
You don't want to just blurt things out. And you
also don't want to talk about more than one.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Subject at a time.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know, it's very important that if you're bringing something
up with somebody it's a conflict, you don't go on
to ten different subjects. That's a big mistake that people
make because the other people can't process it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I got another one. This is kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
If a person has done a personality type test and
been given results that they are low on the ability
to empathize. Is it an automatic diagnosis of narcissism.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Oh no, not at all. Don't worry.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
It could be that you know you have shut down
in a certain way and you just don't know how
to access it in yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
This is, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Call them book practical tools you know to empathize with
your sensitive self, others and the world.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So you have to be very kind to yourself.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
If you have a personality test they say you're low
on empathy, well you could say, I want to develop it.
You can develop empathy. That's what I teach in my workshops.
That's what I write about, is I want to help
you develop it. If you want to do it. If
you don't want to do it, don't do it. You know,
it's totally a matter of attraction to it. If what
(18:49):
I'm saying and who I'm how I'm saying it, who
I am is attractive to you, you might really enjoy
this and it can expand your world. So it's happy
year and more connected.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Doctor Judith Orloff. Fascinating topic again. The book is the
Genius of empathy, practical skills to heal your sensitive self,
your relationships, and the world. I put a link to
it today on my blog at mandy'sblog dot com. Doctor Orloff,
thank you so much for your time today. You're very welcome,
all right, thank you that is doctor Judas Orloff.
I'm pleased, very pleased to have a woman. I've seen
her on television a million times. Doctor Judith Orloff is
a psychiatrist and a prolific writer, and she's got a
new book out called The Genius of Empathy, Practical Skills
to heal your sensitive self, your relationships and the world.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Doctor Orloff, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Thank you very much. I'm happy to be on.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
So let me start with a very basic question. We're
going to start right at the beginning. What is empathy
and why does it matter?
Speaker 4 (00:34):
Yes, empathy is our ability to come from our hearts
and to feel what other people are feeling, and to
care about other people and to connect with other people,
now as opposed to someone who doesn't have empathy, who
such as a narcissist, who is not able to do that.
So it's our ability to reach out to others and
for others to say I feel what you're feeling, and
(00:57):
I'm with you.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You know, I hear you.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So it seems that right now we're a little bit
short on empathy for our fellow humans who may disagree
with us about politics or disagree with us about about
pretty much anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Is this the natural.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
State of the human condition when it comes to empathy
or have we lost our way from what our natural
state should be?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I think we've lost our way from what our natural
state should be. Empathy is a key to being human,
and if you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't
have empathy, you're going to be in bad shape because
they're not going to care about how you're feeling. And
so as humans, as developing humans and being the best
(01:43):
we can be, it's important that we reignite our empathy
and allow it to grow and to be able to
give our loved ones empathy and caring rather than being
cold or shut off or numb. Empathy allows you to
send to other people and to experience love. If you
(02:03):
have no one in your life who has empathy, you're
going to feel like you're missing something very important.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
So is empathy a learned behavior or are you born
with it?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And if it isn't any quality?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Can we have varying degrees of empathy within our population?
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yes, we can have varying degrees and some people are
born with it. When I was doing my obgyn rotation
at USC during my medical school, I see some babies
come out they have empathy and they just seem to care.
And other babies come out they're not interested, you know,
they don't have that same sensitivity. So I call sensitive
(02:48):
children empaths. And there's some of us who are empaths,
who are very sensitive and need to find the balance.
So we don't give too much empathy and too much
of ourself away, but to be able to develop this
beautiful skill.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
You know, in our lives, empathy.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
I write about empathy for ourselves as well as others.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So how do we go about the process.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
If maybe you realize you've become cynical and jaded. I
might be talking about me here, but you've become cynical
or jaded, and you want to reignite your empathy. What
are some of the things that you recommend that someone
can do to recapture or even grow their ability to
be empathetic.
Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, the first thing you could do is to be
able to just ask someone how they're doing and listen,
because empathic listening is a skill. You're not checking your phone,
you're not doing anything else, you're not looking around, You're
right there with the person. I'm right there with you listening.
How are you doing? You know?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
And then you establish a connection with someone.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
That's the first way is to not be in a
million other places when you're trying to to someone you love.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
That is in today's world of distractions, that seems like
a herculean taskue sometimes.
Speaker 4 (04:11):
It is, but it's so important it depends. It really
shapes the quality of your life. I mean, empathy to
me is the most important trait that I have, and
it's the trait that can cause us to be kind
to ourselves. You know, when we're at three o'clock in
the morning and our mind's going mile a minute with
all the things we're worried about, now, that's the time
(04:32):
to bring empathy in. If you don't, you're just going
to be torturing yourself. And every night those voices will
swirl around and round. But if you can say to yourself, you.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Know, you had a hard day.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
These are really hard people to deal with at work,
and I'm trying my best. And so you talk to
yourself in a loving tone as opposed to what's wrong
with you? Why can't you keep up with everyone? What's
wrong with you?
Speaker 3 (04:57):
You know? And that's a.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Very destructive voice because neurochemically that throws you off.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
When you're mean to yourself.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
That gets the stress hormones flowing, and it decreases the endorphins,
the natural painkillers. And when you're empathic, it increases the
endorphins and natural painkillers and all the beautiful hormones in
our body that can make us feel good.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
I mean that sounds that sounds really it sounds like
it's okay. I'm trying to think of the best way
to say this. I understand what you're saying. This is
something I struggle with, and it's something I've struggled with
my entire life. I don't have a lot of patience
for people that I perceive to be making the same
(05:45):
bad choices over and over again. You know, I don't
have a lot of patience with people who may be
struggling with something for a long period of time. These
are things that I've always viewed as character flaws for me.
So how do I get past that in my own
journey to be a more empathetic human being.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Well, you know, as a psychiatrist, I've been in practice,
you know, over twenty five years, and I've sat with
so many people, and each person has their own timeline
on how they can deal with something sometimes now is
not the right time. But as a friend, if they
keep going round and round the same thing over and
over and over again, you don't want to sit and
(06:26):
listen to it. You want to say, you know, I
hear what you're saying, and when you're ready for a solution,
I'm here and I love you, I care about you,
but I can't keep listening to it.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
But the way you set the boundaries.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
Setting boundaries is key when people are going on and
on and not getting anywhere. I mean, I won't sit
with the patient who's going round and around and not
getting anywhere. If they come in week after week the
same thing. You know, I need to address that with them,
you know, and the same with yourself. You can say
I'm not able to listen, you know, for two hours
on the phone again, and I'm here if you want
(07:02):
a solution in the meantime, here's someone who might be
able to help you now. But the tone of your voice,
you don't want to be nasty, you know, you want
to have an empathic tone, because when you're impatient, you
tend to get nasty and that's only going to hurt
the other person. And what you want to do is
just set limits for yourself so you don't have to
(07:23):
keep hearing it over and over again and so you
don't develop a resentment. Right.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
We have a lot of text messages on our text
line asking questions doctor Orloff, and one of them is Mandy,
what is the difference between empathy, sympathy and compassion.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Well, sympathy is when you feel sad for somebody, if
somebody has a loss and you have sent a sympathy card.
And the difference between empathy and compassion is that compassion
is more action oriented. Well, let's say your neighbor, you know,
is unable to go to the market for himself, and
so you take it and empathic action go shopping for
(08:02):
him and bring him up the bags up three flights upstairs.
That's compassion. Empathy is more I feel for him, you know,
and my heart goes out to him. And then compassion
is your ability to go into action.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Okay, so they're they're interconnected maybe, but different, Okay.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
A little bit different.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I just want to say that Don Wumma wrote the
forewords for this book and he deals with which I'm
thrilled about. And he wrote the difference between empathy and
compassion and the lines are not.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
That that's straight.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
You know there there's some difference that he talks about
it together.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
This person asked specifically, are men more empathetic now than
in previous generations?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Great question, Some men, not all men.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
If you have a narcissist, sociopath or a psychopath where
I have a whole chapter on these type of people
who have what's called empathy deficient disorder, they literally don't
have empathy. So now everyone who's listening, you have to
wrap your mind around the fact that some people don't
have empathy. They're not wired to have empathy, all right,
(09:14):
and so they're not going to be developing more empathy.
What they're into is power over you. They're not into love,
they're not into caring. But the men who have developed it,
I know that the new paradigm.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
I believe this.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Strongly for a new man as somebody who's able to
cry at times and be sensitive and strong, not a weakling,
but somebody who's stronger because they're able to deal with
their emotions at least some of them, and they're not
afraid of it.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
You don't want somebody who's.
Speaker 4 (09:46):
A kind of like a bait shot and cut off.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
And not into their emotions. And I'm so tough, you know.
And the tough people, as we were talking about, you know, can.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Be tough and tender, you know, they can have that
spot in themselves that can cry something times or you know,
be sweet and gentle and they're big, you know, a man.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
They're like, you know, real men. They're not.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
A fear that many people have that I write about
in the book is people are afraid of becoming overly feminized,
you know. And that's not what empathy is. Not want
what healthy empathy is. Healthy empathy is finding the balance
between your masculine and feminine side. It's about being strong
and able to assert yourself and set boundaries and be
(10:29):
kind as well as you know, be able to handle life,
you know, and.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
Deal with it in a strong way.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So I want to dispel the myth that empathy is weakness.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
It's not weakness, not when it's balanced.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And I do think I'm a big fan of crying
at the right appropriate time because crying at the right
appropriate time can make a huge difference. It can be
a physical release that allows you to sort of have
a moment and then you pull yourself together and you'll
wipe this out off your nose, and you move forward
and you go about your day. And I know that
that is something that you've kind of addressed. The healthy
(11:03):
side of crying. How do you know if you are
doing healthy crying or if you probably need some help
because you're doing too much crying.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Well, you have to see how it's affecting you first
and foremost, and how it affects the people around you.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
If you're crying.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Let's say you have a sad event that happened and
tears come into your eyes and that's okay, and that might,
you know, last, depending on how big the event is,
that might last because grieving is you know, crying is
part of grieving, So it's a way of working the
event through your system, you see. But if you're crying
(11:40):
all the time and everything and you can't get it
together to center yourself, that's too much. You know.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
You know, either you have a you know, a.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Depression that needs to be looked at, or you know
you have to learn to breathe the center yourself and
maybe call a friend and find a friend to express
this with, especially supportive, loving friends. You know, there's the
issue that I write about in the book about crying
it at work?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
You know, is it a good thing to cry at work?
Or is that a problem?
Speaker 4 (12:12):
And from what I have seen, most workplaces, most not all,
do not welcome crying, you know, very you know, with open.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Arms now, and they tend to.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Come down on people who cry and look at it
as a weakness. And then criers tend to be bullied,
and especially children who are crying a lot tend to
be bullied.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And so I don't think it's a good idea.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
Unless you have a really supportive coworker and say let's
go out for a walk and hear she can just
you know, be okay with it.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
You know, it's a to me, it's a.
Speaker 4 (12:47):
Beautiful thing when somebody cries, it's real. But if it
goes beyond that, if you can't stop it, because I
know a lot of people who are very depressed, they
can't stop it. It just goes on and on. So
it's it doesn't give you energy, it perhaps you So
in those cases you have to look.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Uh, as one who has had one.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Episode at work where I cried, I don't look back
with a fondness, with fondness that they were anger, they
were murder tears though I was crying, so I didn't
murder someone, So I'm gonna give myself a pass on that.
Soone asked an interesting question, and I don't know if
I have enough information. This texter said, what if you
can't cry?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
I don't know if that's a.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Physical thing that you you have to be able to
make tears or your eyes would be permanently dry.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
I mean, I'm.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Guessing they mean that that they are just they don't cry.
I mean, how does that? How does one get beyond that?
Or do you even need to or are they capable
of expressing that emotion without the actual crying.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well, some people I get asked that question a lot
because things happen to people in their lifetimes and it
might stop their ability to cry. Maybe it's passed trauma,
or maybe it's being bullied for crying, or if they
had a really bad association with what it means to cry.
And so I had patients who really want to open
that up again and see if they can open their emotions,
(14:13):
because when you don't cry, it is shutting down your
emotions to a certain extent. But there's usually something that
caused them not to cry, and it's up to you
whether you want to reignite the crying again and explore
empathy and everything that that means. I would encourage you
to do that, but it's not the right time for
(14:33):
everyone to do that. So I think crying is a
well balanced expression of who we are as human.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It's the way to release stress.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
We actually release stress hormones when we cry, so it's
a very positive, helpful thing for the body to heal.
But if someone's not emotionally ready, who ever asked this question, she's.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Not ready, don't do it.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
You only do it if you're curious and you might
feel ready to open up your heart in that way.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Doctor Judith Orloff is my guest.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
She's a psychiatrist and the author of the Genius of Empathy,
Practical Skills to Heal your sensitive self, your relationships, and
the world.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Doctor Orloff, I have several.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Questions on the text line about boundaries setting, and many
people saying, how do you even begin to set boundaries?
And I think the very nature of that question would
indicate that these people have no clue because they've never
done it.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So how do you if you are in a.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
Relationship where you feel like you need to set boundaries,
but you haven't yet. How do you begin that process
in a long term relationship to say okay, now, this
is not.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Okay with me? What does that even look like.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
Well, you have to.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Get to know the word no, because if you're a
people pleaser, or you have been so far and you
just want people to be happy, you want to be
everything to be peaceful.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
You don't want to have any conflict.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
You know, you have to use the word no, you know,
in order to set a boundary. But the way you
say it. I can't emphasize this enough. This is the
genius of empathy. Is the way you say it that you.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
Can be heard.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
You say it with a very kind tone. No, I'm
so sorry. I can't help you with that project now
because I'm already swamped, but I wish.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
You good luck with it.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
And the way you say it is very short. You
don't apologize at length. You don't get into a big
confrontation with somebody.
Speaker 3 (16:35):
You practice.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The first step to empathy and setting boundaries is practicing
how to say no. And my patients often do that
with me in the office. So you might want to
find a friend or you could practice saying no. It
may be hard to even get out. You know, no,
I can't do this because you're so used to being
the peacemaker or the adult in the family, or if
(16:56):
you came from a dysfunctional family, you could never say no.
You have to, you know, take care of everything, so
that that's where you practice that and then you begin
to notice what doesn't feel.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Right to you and boundary.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
You know, with boundary setting, so you don't want to
say yes to things that don't feel right. You know,
you want like if you go ahead with a job,
if you go ahead with a relationship, if you go
ahead with a discussion with your spouse, you want it
to feel right. You want your approach to feel right.
You don't want to just blurt things out. And you
also don't want to talk about more than one.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Subject at a time.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
You know, it's very important that if you're bringing something
up with somebody it's a conflict, you don't go on
to ten different subjects. That's a big mistake that people
make because the other people can't process it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
I got another one. This is kind of interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
If a person has done a personality type test and
been given results that they are low on the ability
to empathize. Is it an automatic diagnosis of narcissism.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
Oh no, not at all. Don't worry.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
It could be that you know you have shut down
in a certain way and you just don't know how
to access it in yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
This is, you know, I.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Call them book practical tools you know to empathize with
your sensitive self, others and the world.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
So you have to be very kind to yourself.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
If you have a personality test they say you're low
on empathy, well you could say, I want to develop it.
You can develop empathy. That's what I teach in my workshops.
That's what I write about, is I want to help
you develop it. If you want to do it. If
you don't want to do it, don't do it. You know,
it's totally a matter of attraction to it. If what
(18:49):
I'm saying and who I'm how I'm saying it, who
I am is attractive to you, you might really enjoy
this and it can expand your world. So it's happy
year and more connected.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Doctor Judith Orloff. Fascinating topic again. The book is the
Genius of empathy, practical skills to heal your sensitive self,
your relationships, and the world. I put a link to
it today on my blog at mandy'sblog dot com. Doctor Orloff,
thank you so much for your time today. You're very welcome,
all right, thank you that is doctor Judas Orloff.
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