October 30, 2024 • 11 mins
THE DETAILS OF RCV IN ALASKA (Don't mind my butchering his name from Shower to Storm. It's Mike SHOWER) I'm super mad at myself for not reaching out to someone in Alaska to talk about the realities of Ranked Choice Voting before now. I had a long conversation with Alaska State Senator Mike Shower the other day and asked him to come on the show today to talk about the realities of what Ranked Choice Voting (RCV) looks like in practice. Though I am STILL IN FAVOR, this is going to be a heavy lift if it passes because voters don't seem to be smart enough to figure it out. I'll let him tell you at 2pm.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talk shows.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Who sits here like an authority on things has to
make an embarrassing confession. Senator Mike Shower from Alaska joined
us at the beginning of the show.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Not Senator Mike Storm. I changed his name.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I gave him a soap proper name. Do you know
what I'd soaproperate his name? Because Mike Shower, You're like
Mike Shower.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That's nice, seems nice. How a whole storm? How is
it spelt like storm? Now the other like the right one?
Shower like shower. There's literally no reason for me. I've
gotten this wrong rain fart. No, I swear to you
I have.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Is there a mental disorder where you cannot remember people's names?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I am going to bring on someone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I got to tell you, guys, I wish that I
had done this earlier, not because it changed my opinion,
and we'll.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Get to that in a little bit. A couple of days.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Ago, I had a long conversation with an Alaskan state
senator about ranked choice voting, and now Senator Mike Storm
joins me to talk about it. First of all, thank
you so much for making time for me twice.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
My pleasure Colorad's in my heart. My wife from there,
her brothers and sisters all lived there, spent time down
the road from me at the school for wayward children
back in the day. So I am happy to come
on board and pass along some of our experiences up
here in the Great Way. Nor Well.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I want to ask you specifically because I think it's
interesting your background. You're not exactly a ride for the
brand Republican. And I say that only because here in
Colorado a vast majority of the opposition has come from
people who want to protect the two party system. But
after talking to you, I don't feel like that's necessarily
(01:35):
your motivation here in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I mean, is that a fair assessment.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yes, it is. As I told you, for a number
of years, my wife and I were what we call
undeclared up in Alaska. While I have been a Republican
most of the time, when I was in the military
for twenty four years, I also was pretty frustrated with
what I saw as the politics at the national level
and a lot of rhetoric and divisiveness which only seems
to have gotten worse. Had gone towards this undeclared category.
(02:02):
If you're back to the Republican parties. I've been there
for the last eight years. But like I told you,
I said, I look at it and I see there
are definitely problems on both sides, and at times I've
even had some issues more with some of the Republican
establishment that I've even had with Democrats. As my German
shepherd all you about the other day. Sorry, she likes
the bark right right when she shouldn't. But yeah, so
(02:26):
I am a lot more of what you would call
a conservative libertarian than I am writing for the brand.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what do I want to.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Get into today, because I don't have a ton of time,
But I want to get into the practical way. Rank
choice voting has been deployed in Alaska, and you have
a similar program to the one that we're talking about here.
You have everybody on a primary ballot and a universal primary.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You vote for one of those people.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Now you guys have top two, you have top four
to go to the to the general.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
That's correct. Main is the other state with it. They
have a top two And when when it was installed
in Alaska? And I say that for a specific reason,
they installed a top four system.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Okay, So what has actually happened, what has been the
result of rank choice voting in terms of Let's start
with voter turnout first.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So first of all I had. I was the Committee
of what it was called State Affairs, Chairman of that committee,
which deals with these kinds of issues, the executive branch,
state level issues. That was my job for four years
in the Senate. And what we had was a professor
from Stanford. He's done the deepest dive on RCV or
ranked choice voting that I've seen yet, and a lot
of conversations about He predicted that we would have the
(03:35):
lowest turnout, which we did. He predicted we would disenfranchise
the votes for specific groups, which we did, and those
four groups that we know happens from empirical battle from Alaska, Maine,
New York, San Francisco, other places that have had RCV
for some time. You will disenfranchise at the higher rate
the votes of minorities, senior citizens, English is a second
language speaker, and those with less than high school education.
(03:56):
Because it is complicated, it can be confusing. The bubble
diagram can look like engineering chart when you're trying to
figure out the ballot, and a lot of those folks
and the more vulnerable groups will just give up and
over time they actually vote less. So those were predictions
that came true. It has definitely cost us more money.
It's more expensive to operate. So we are seeing and
give you one final result on that. As for example,
(04:16):
Alaska had a US Congressman a Republican for fifty years.
There's twice as many Republicans in Alaska as there are Democrats,
and yet under RCV, for our first election in twenty
twenty two, under it, two years ago, a Democrat got
elected to the US congressional seat. That gives you an
idea of how it does not work out like they promise.
And almost two thirds of the elections under RCV. And
(04:37):
this is my last point and I'll shut up and
con this is just all the data. Is my head
is that they'll say, oh, you get a plurality, a
majority of the support for each of the candidates in
the RCV. You don't. Over sixty percent of the time
they get less than fifty percent of the vote. Based
on how the algorithms work, because remember this is run
by a computer algorithm, you'll have two or three or
even four iterations of the vote so it gets complicated.
(04:58):
And that's that. These are just some of the downfalls
of it, and the promises that the proponents will tell
you do not always work out that way.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
What do you think motivated the proponents to get this installed?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Where do you think? What do you think the endgame
is here?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I can tell you this, and I know you and
I had an interesting conversation about your thoughts on it
in a state where you're kind of overrun by left
of center and Democrats now where that's kind of a
blue powerhouse, right, and you're like, well, maybe we should
try something different, and honestly, maybe you should. Who knows
if it will work. But it was designed to turn
a red state blue. That's how it works. And I
will tell you that for sure. When you look at
the places like New York and San Francisco that have
(05:31):
ring choice voting became blue and they're still blue and
ring choice voting is not turned them red. And so
what you see is in these areas where you have
very conservative or red districts, it starts to move them
towards purple, towards blue, not the other direction. And I
will give you one primary example. We have discovered what
happens is Democrats, people on the left side of the spectrum,
tend to kind of have a communal mindset, a hive right,
(05:52):
and they all march the same tune. Still have one candidate.
They won't split the boats. We've learned that Republicans, Conservatives,
those on the kind of the red this political spectrum
will it's a very independent mind right, like leave me alone,
you know, tread on. What they do is we'll have
two or three candidates running, you will split the vote,
and then that Democrat will get in that would never
get elected under a system where you had a party primary,
(06:13):
where you would put up just two people right to vote,
you know, one Democrat, one Republican, maybe an independent or
whatever else. And that's what happens. And that's what it
was designed to do, and that is exactly what it does.
And that is our experience in Alaska. So we got
smart this time around, and the Republicans said, you know what,
if this is the game, we got to play until
we can repeal it, because it isn't our ballot to
repeal it here in a couple of days, and hopefully
(06:34):
we will. We said, you know, we cannot have two
or three Republicans running against one Democrat or the system,
we'll keep losing. So we've convinced most Republicans to drop out.
So in esence, we've turned ourselves back to the old system.
Anywhere where we just have one Republican ring against the Democrat.
It's exactly what we had before, regardless because of otherwise,
it just simply doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
About the congressional rays, do you think there was a
chance that if Sarah Palin and Nick badget baggage, the
two Republicans had campaigned using the if I'm not your
number one, make me your number two to encourage people
to vote for them, because their supporters did not vote
for the other Republican, and that's a huge problem. One
(07:17):
of the reasons I like rank choice voting is because
in theory, and everything is a theory until it, you know,
is you know, tested. In theory, it would encourage candidates
to campaign in a more positive manner while delineating the
differences between them and there they're you know, similar party opponents,
but also encouraging people, look, I'm still better than the Democrat,
(07:37):
or I'm still better than you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
That did not happen in that congressional race.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Did it. No, it did not, And I hated to
counter your narrative where we're talking on the phone the
other day. We found that the vitriol as at least
as that it's not worse. I mean, it is downright
nasty up here right now with ranked choice voting taken
on just lies and misinformation. It's it's terrible. It's about
the worst I've ever seen. Actually, So that didn't clean
up anything. I told you. What we discovered in practice
(08:02):
versus theory is that what happens is is that you
make that promise, say, well, you know, I want everybody
to vote for me first and put the other one second,
or vice versa. But what you had was in practice,
that's not how human beings operating. Like I was telling you,
the people that designed the system, they know psychologically how
human beings thank and how they operate. And so you
have a whole section of each of those kind of
(08:22):
Republican candidates are on the right side of the spectrum
who say I will never vote for that person, or
I will never vote for that person. A don't. And
when you end up with fifteen or twenty or twenty
five percent of the never you know, never Trumpers, never
Sarah Palin's, never Nick Faga, just for us up in Alaska.
Then they won't put down that secondary vote. And so
where you would have the vote for that secondary person,
you know that was the third vote getter if you will,
(08:44):
out of three, and they drop off, and now you
only have the two left and the votes get redistributed. Well,
a certain number of votes don't get redistributed because they
didn't put down that second bubble. People just won't do it.
That's how it works for real. And guess what, all
of a sudden, where you would have had more than
enough votes, I think there was one hundred and fourty
thousand votes where Republicans combined in eighty five thousand or
something like that for the Democrat. Well, guess what after
(09:05):
they run the algorithm and the one drops off and
you have the never voters for the second bubble, the
Democrat wins even though there was thirty thousand more Republican
votes for a Republican in this state than a Democrat.
Guess well, we have a US congresswoman that's a Democrat.
That's how the system works in practice right here of
what they promise you.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and I've said this on the air.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's like I kind of fear, and in all honesty,
I still support it. If it sucks, we can repeal it,
as you guys look like you're going.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But what we're doing now is not getting the best candidates.
It is not getting people that people are excited to
vote about. Although I will say in this election cycle,
primary voters rejected the most extreme of the parties on
both sides, So maybe we're coming to some kind of
sense here in Colorado. Senator Mike Storm, I really appreciate
you taking the time both to educate me the other
(09:53):
day and bring this to our listeners today, and maybe
we'll chat again after your vote next Tuesday to see
if the last repeals us.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
What is the polling on that right now?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
There is about sixty to sixty five percent consistent polling
for getting rid of ranked choice voting Alaska. It's not popular,
and my wife runs a polling station, very unpopular. The
only thing we are concerned about, and I'll throw this
at you, I'm sure you're getting it too, is we
are being out spent one hundred to one, and almost
all of the money that's pouring into Alaska to the
dark money. They have about thirteen million dollars in our
(10:24):
tiny little state population wise to try to save ranked
choice voting. We have about one hundred and twenty thousand
all raised inside Alaska. So it's Arabel Advisors sixteen thirty five.
They are dumping money into Alaska and I know why,
and it's very simple. They're trying to install rankchice voting
in all the other states. And if Alaska repeals this,
like I told you the other day, after just four years,
the logical question down south is going to be, well,
(10:45):
wait a minute, if it's so great, why did Alaskan
repeal it after only four years? Correct, that's what we are.
So I'm hoping that will to send the message is
stop the national narrative. We'll see, but certainly I will.
I'll reach out to you and tell you how it goes,
and you know, see what happens.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Oh, I'll be watching people hunching Alasta because stays enertor
mic Storm. Really appreciate the conversation and the information.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
All right, mat all right, let me explain it you guys,
take care and good luck down.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
There, all right, Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate that
we'll be right back.
Talk shows.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
Who sits here like an authority on things has to
make an embarrassing confession. Senator Mike Shower from Alaska joined
us at the beginning of the show.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Not Senator Mike Storm. I changed his name.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I gave him a soap proper name. Do you know
what I'd soaproperate his name? Because Mike Shower, You're like
Mike Shower.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
That's nice, seems nice. How a whole storm? How is
it spelt like storm? Now the other like the right one?
Shower like shower. There's literally no reason for me. I've
gotten this wrong rain fart. No, I swear to you
I have.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Is there a mental disorder where you cannot remember people's names?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I am going to bring on someone.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I got to tell you, guys, I wish that I
had done this earlier, not because it changed my opinion,
and we'll.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Get to that in a little bit. A couple of days.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Ago, I had a long conversation with an Alaskan state
senator about ranked choice voting, and now Senator Mike Storm
joins me to talk about it. First of all, thank
you so much for making time for me twice.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
My pleasure Colorad's in my heart. My wife from there,
her brothers and sisters all lived there, spent time down
the road from me at the school for wayward children
back in the day. So I am happy to come
on board and pass along some of our experiences up
here in the Great Way. Nor Well.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I want to ask you specifically because I think it's
interesting your background. You're not exactly a ride for the
brand Republican. And I say that only because here in
Colorado a vast majority of the opposition has come from
people who want to protect the two party system. But
after talking to you, I don't feel like that's necessarily
(01:35):
your motivation here in this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
So I mean, is that a fair assessment.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yes, it is. As I told you, for a number
of years, my wife and I were what we call
undeclared up in Alaska. While I have been a Republican
most of the time, when I was in the military
for twenty four years, I also was pretty frustrated with
what I saw as the politics at the national level
and a lot of rhetoric and divisiveness which only seems
to have gotten worse. Had gone towards this undeclared category.
(02:02):
If you're back to the Republican parties. I've been there
for the last eight years. But like I told you,
I said, I look at it and I see there
are definitely problems on both sides, and at times I've
even had some issues more with some of the Republican
establishment that I've even had with Democrats. As my German
shepherd all you about the other day. Sorry, she likes
the bark right right when she shouldn't. But yeah, so
(02:26):
I am a lot more of what you would call
a conservative libertarian than I am writing for the brand.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
So what do I want to.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Get into today, because I don't have a ton of time,
But I want to get into the practical way. Rank
choice voting has been deployed in Alaska, and you have
a similar program to the one that we're talking about here.
You have everybody on a primary ballot and a universal primary.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
You vote for one of those people.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Now you guys have top two, you have top four
to go to the to the general.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
That's correct. Main is the other state with it. They
have a top two And when when it was installed
in Alaska? And I say that for a specific reason,
they installed a top four system.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Okay, So what has actually happened, what has been the
result of rank choice voting in terms of Let's start
with voter turnout first.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
So first of all I had. I was the Committee
of what it was called State Affairs, Chairman of that committee,
which deals with these kinds of issues, the executive branch,
state level issues. That was my job for four years
in the Senate. And what we had was a professor
from Stanford. He's done the deepest dive on RCV or
ranked choice voting that I've seen yet, and a lot
of conversations about He predicted that we would have the
(03:35):
lowest turnout, which we did. He predicted we would disenfranchise
the votes for specific groups, which we did, and those
four groups that we know happens from empirical battle from Alaska, Maine,
New York, San Francisco, other places that have had RCV
for some time. You will disenfranchise at the higher rate
the votes of minorities, senior citizens, English is a second
language speaker, and those with less than high school education.
(03:56):
Because it is complicated, it can be confusing. The bubble
diagram can look like engineering chart when you're trying to
figure out the ballot, and a lot of those folks
and the more vulnerable groups will just give up and
over time they actually vote less. So those were predictions
that came true. It has definitely cost us more money.
It's more expensive to operate. So we are seeing and
give you one final result on that. As for example,
(04:16):
Alaska had a US Congressman a Republican for fifty years.
There's twice as many Republicans in Alaska as there are Democrats,
and yet under RCV, for our first election in twenty
twenty two, under it, two years ago, a Democrat got
elected to the US congressional seat. That gives you an
idea of how it does not work out like they promise.
And almost two thirds of the elections under RCV. And
(04:37):
this is my last point and I'll shut up and
con this is just all the data. Is my head
is that they'll say, oh, you get a plurality, a
majority of the support for each of the candidates in
the RCV. You don't. Over sixty percent of the time
they get less than fifty percent of the vote. Based
on how the algorithms work, because remember this is run
by a computer algorithm, you'll have two or three or
even four iterations of the vote so it gets complicated.
(04:58):
And that's that. These are just some of the downfalls
of it, and the promises that the proponents will tell
you do not always work out that way.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
What do you think motivated the proponents to get this installed?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Where do you think? What do you think the endgame
is here?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
I can tell you this, and I know you and
I had an interesting conversation about your thoughts on it
in a state where you're kind of overrun by left
of center and Democrats now where that's kind of a
blue powerhouse, right, and you're like, well, maybe we should
try something different, and honestly, maybe you should. Who knows
if it will work. But it was designed to turn
a red state blue. That's how it works. And I
will tell you that for sure. When you look at
the places like New York and San Francisco that have
(05:31):
ring choice voting became blue and they're still blue and
ring choice voting is not turned them red. And so
what you see is in these areas where you have
very conservative or red districts, it starts to move them
towards purple, towards blue, not the other direction. And I
will give you one primary example. We have discovered what
happens is Democrats, people on the left side of the spectrum,
tend to kind of have a communal mindset, a hive right,
(05:52):
and they all march the same tune. Still have one candidate.
They won't split the boats. We've learned that Republicans, Conservatives,
those on the kind of the red this political spectrum
will it's a very independent mind right, like leave me alone,
you know, tread on. What they do is we'll have
two or three candidates running, you will split the vote,
and then that Democrat will get in that would never
get elected under a system where you had a party primary,
(06:13):
where you would put up just two people right to vote,
you know, one Democrat, one Republican, maybe an independent or
whatever else. And that's what happens. And that's what it
was designed to do, and that is exactly what it does.
And that is our experience in Alaska. So we got
smart this time around, and the Republicans said, you know what,
if this is the game, we got to play until
we can repeal it, because it isn't our ballot to
repeal it here in a couple of days, and hopefully
(06:34):
we will. We said, you know, we cannot have two
or three Republicans running against one Democrat or the system,
we'll keep losing. So we've convinced most Republicans to drop out.
So in esence, we've turned ourselves back to the old system.
Anywhere where we just have one Republican ring against the Democrat.
It's exactly what we had before, regardless because of otherwise,
it just simply doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
About the congressional rays, do you think there was a
chance that if Sarah Palin and Nick badget baggage, the
two Republicans had campaigned using the if I'm not your
number one, make me your number two to encourage people
to vote for them, because their supporters did not vote
for the other Republican, and that's a huge problem. One
(07:17):
of the reasons I like rank choice voting is because
in theory, and everything is a theory until it, you know,
is you know, tested. In theory, it would encourage candidates
to campaign in a more positive manner while delineating the
differences between them and there they're you know, similar party opponents,
but also encouraging people, look, I'm still better than the Democrat,
(07:37):
or I'm still better than you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
That did not happen in that congressional race.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Did it. No, it did not, And I hated to
counter your narrative where we're talking on the phone the
other day. We found that the vitriol as at least
as that it's not worse. I mean, it is downright
nasty up here right now with ranked choice voting taken
on just lies and misinformation. It's it's terrible. It's about
the worst I've ever seen. Actually, So that didn't clean
up anything. I told you. What we discovered in practice
(08:02):
versus theory is that what happens is is that you
make that promise, say, well, you know, I want everybody
to vote for me first and put the other one second,
or vice versa. But what you had was in practice,
that's not how human beings operating. Like I was telling you,
the people that designed the system, they know psychologically how
human beings thank and how they operate. And so you
have a whole section of each of those kind of
(08:22):
Republican candidates are on the right side of the spectrum
who say I will never vote for that person, or
I will never vote for that person. A don't. And
when you end up with fifteen or twenty or twenty
five percent of the never you know, never Trumpers, never
Sarah Palin's, never Nick Faga, just for us up in Alaska.
Then they won't put down that secondary vote. And so
where you would have the vote for that secondary person,
you know that was the third vote getter if you will,
(08:44):
out of three, and they drop off, and now you
only have the two left and the votes get redistributed. Well,
a certain number of votes don't get redistributed because they
didn't put down that second bubble. People just won't do it.
That's how it works for real. And guess what, all
of a sudden, where you would have had more than
enough votes, I think there was one hundred and fourty
thousand votes where Republicans combined in eighty five thousand or
something like that for the Democrat. Well, guess what after
(09:05):
they run the algorithm and the one drops off and
you have the never voters for the second bubble, the
Democrat wins even though there was thirty thousand more Republican
votes for a Republican in this state than a Democrat.
Guess well, we have a US congresswoman that's a Democrat.
That's how the system works in practice right here of
what they promise you.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, and I've said this on the air.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
It's like I kind of fear, and in all honesty,
I still support it. If it sucks, we can repeal it,
as you guys look like you're going.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
To do it.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
But what we're doing now is not getting the best candidates.
It is not getting people that people are excited to
vote about. Although I will say in this election cycle,
primary voters rejected the most extreme of the parties on
both sides, So maybe we're coming to some kind of
sense here in Colorado. Senator Mike Storm, I really appreciate
you taking the time both to educate me the other
(09:53):
day and bring this to our listeners today, and maybe
we'll chat again after your vote next Tuesday to see
if the last repeals us.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
What is the polling on that right now?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
There is about sixty to sixty five percent consistent polling
for getting rid of ranked choice voting Alaska. It's not popular,
and my wife runs a polling station, very unpopular. The
only thing we are concerned about, and I'll throw this
at you, I'm sure you're getting it too, is we
are being out spent one hundred to one, and almost
all of the money that's pouring into Alaska to the
dark money. They have about thirteen million dollars in our
(10:24):
tiny little state population wise to try to save ranked
choice voting. We have about one hundred and twenty thousand
all raised inside Alaska. So it's Arabel Advisors sixteen thirty five.
They are dumping money into Alaska and I know why,
and it's very simple. They're trying to install rankchice voting
in all the other states. And if Alaska repeals this,
like I told you the other day, after just four years,
the logical question down south is going to be, well,
(10:45):
wait a minute, if it's so great, why did Alaskan
repeal it after only four years? Correct, that's what we are.
So I'm hoping that will to send the message is
stop the national narrative. We'll see, but certainly I will.
I'll reach out to you and tell you how it goes,
and you know, see what happens.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Oh, I'll be watching people hunching Alasta because stays enertor
mic Storm. Really appreciate the conversation and the information.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
All right, mat all right, let me explain it you guys,
take care and good luck down.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
There, all right, Thanks a lot, man. I appreciate that
we'll be right back.
The Mandy Connell Podcast News
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