November 26, 2021 • 53 mins
Roy Wood Jr. and producer CJ Hunt discuss their 2018 segment exploring Boston's reputation as a racist city, and Boston's NAACP President Tanisha Sullivan weighs in.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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What's up, everybody. I'm Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond
(01:31):
the Scenes, the podcast where readdress issues that were originally
talked about on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. I
sit down with correspondence, producers, writers, anybody I can get
my hands on to break down a lot of these issues.
Today we asked the question how racist is Boston? I
sat down with some people from the Boston Globe, some
(01:51):
people from the n double a c P. I even
put on a wokey Walrus costume to really get to
the bottom of the issue. Because I don't know if
you've heard or not, but Boston's got a little bit
of a problem with race. Here's a clip point. So
one study we found showed that the median net worth
of white families in Boston was two hundred forty seven thousand,
five hundred dollars. Compare that to the media net worth
(02:13):
of black families in Boston, which was eight dollars eight
accounting in thousands, like eight thousand dollars, No, just eight
eight dollars eight dollars. That's that's not even a grande soil.
Spotlight wants to know why black enrollment at many of
Boston's universities hasn't really gone up in thirty years, or
why there's so little diversity in boardrooms and hospitals, or
(02:37):
how among eight major cities, black people voted Boston the
least welcoming to people of color. All right, So today
we're going beyond the scenes with Daily Show field producers
c J. Hunt, and later we're going to be joined
by Boston in w a c P President to Nissa Sullivan.
But first, CJ, how are you doing brother Boston original?
(02:59):
Were you born and raised in Boston? How long were
you there? I was born in Worcester, uh, and then
I was raised for for a while in Boston. I
still can't pronounce that word Worcester wire. Yeah, that's that's
exactly that's a taste like me trying to pronounce it.
(03:22):
So we haven't had many field producers on the show
yet because y'all are always out doing stuff in the field,
and it's it's an interesting job because, you know, as
a field producer, you all are kind of helping to
put all the pieces together. The visuals, the writers kind
of hand you an idea. You all helped to kind
(03:44):
of craft what the concept will be as well and
then you're out the door with the camera's trying to
figure this out. I guess first thing, I'll ask you
out the gate. Um. I know this piece wasn't my
idea because I know as a black person, I would
have never pitched Hey, let me go to ball as
a black man and ask everybody if it's racist or not.
How did this piece all come about? Also not my idea.
(04:07):
As a black man who looks like a Mexican man. Um,
I who was grew up in Boston, I know how
racist it is. This isn't This isn't a question. A
lot of black folks are asking, you know, numerically, how
racist is it. It's just it is more an intuitive
piece of knowledge. But I think that question came to
(04:28):
the piece because, Um, this is actually my first piece
on the show. It was a spring of two thousand eighteen. Um,
you know, I just met you. You were the first
person I met on the show, and they were like, Okay,
how would you like to go out with Roy? Here's
a piece we have cooking. The piece originally was about
Michael Chay. You know he had been he had said
on S and L you know, I'm mixed like the
(04:50):
Patriots were versus the Falcons for the Super Bowl, and
Michael Jay was like, Hey, I'm excited to see the
blackest city beat the most racist city I've ever been to.
So the piece originally was supposed to be about how
Bostonians felt about Michael Jay shipping on their city. Oh,
he's always taking shots at them, and they're always mad
at Jay, always mad at Ja. And yeah, it's it's
(05:13):
his staten Island, I guess. So it was it was
about that. And um also they were changing the name
of Yucky Way, which was you know, named after a
Red Sox uh manager who you know, kept them from integrating.
So originally the piece was supposed to be about that,
and then very quickly, in pitching to Trevor, he was like, no,
(05:35):
y'all gotta you'll gotta change the question. It's one of
those pieces that I enjoyed because we go out the
door with a single question. We're attempting to ascertain. We're
simply trying to find out how racist is it? And
so we all, here's a little beyond the scene. You
want to go beyond the scenes, motherfucker bring them. We
shot all of this in one day, which isn't the norm.
(06:01):
But when we started putting the day together, it kind
of made sense. And so I remember, you know, we
went over we went over to Roxbury Um in Boston,
the black side of town, if you don't know, and
we spoke with black people over there. Then we went
over to the Boston Globe and we spoke with a
p people, and then we went over to Finway to
(06:23):
start doing Man on the Street and just kind of
talking to layman Um. You know, they were out and about.
The thing that was so visible to me right away
by the end of the day was just how oblivious
some people were to what's going on. I distinctly remember
us asking one person, you know, is that racism? She goes, well,
I've never seen it. I don't see that racism myself. Honestly, No,
(06:44):
I don't think Boston's a racist city. I don't think
in Boston is a racist city at all. So how
do you know I don't feel it? As if that's
the only way it can be confirmed is you must
see it and experience. You must witness a black person
getting kicked out of a store, the cops beating his
ass to believe that it's real. And I thought that
(07:06):
that was kind of disheartening in a way, Um, why
why do you think Boston has his reputation? It's also
the best part of the piece to me. You know,
you you asked that old couple, you know, this old
white couple outside of Fenway, do you think Boston is
a racist city? And what I love about watching you
work is the questions are so basic. You know, you're
just asking person after person, you know, like do you
(07:29):
think it deserves this rep And they say, you know,
I don't think Boston is a racist city. I don't
see I don't see it. I've never felt it. And
the idea is like, when would you have felt it?
Sir and ma'am? You know you you like seven year
old white people, when would someone have been racist to you?
So But but I do think that that's you know,
this is two thousand eighteen. That's how people then and
(07:51):
some people still now think about racism. It's like, you know,
if someone's not shouting the N word at me or
I don't see it happen on a train, that's the
only type of racism that can exist. So I love
that that's a part of the piece. People comment most
about it in the comments about damn when this this
couple says this thing. And I think, you know, most Bostonian,
most white Bostonians, and most white people in America. I
(08:13):
think still think if I don't feel it personally, then
it doesn't exist. You're being from that area right. Clearly
you've felt it growing up as a black looking Mexican man,
as a Mexican looking black, as a Negro. Yeah, as
a Filipino Latin ex black man looking man. How did
(08:36):
it feel? Because you could feel that and you know
that's real, and then to be able to come back
home with a camera and a correspondent and security, lots
of security, not always roll security. You won't shout out, um,
shout out the yelling who wants this? Um? If we
(09:01):
had a real confrontational security. You're asking questions in the background.
You here security, try it, Try it. I okay. I
don't want to say it felt like vengeance, but it
felt vindicating to come back to Boston and then in
(09:21):
a place I grew up, you know, asking this question
with a camera because you know, I think white Bostonians
who I know, some of their reaction was, oh, man,
are you really going to do that? Come on? Like
give us a break. But black Bostonians I know and
who grew up with we're like, yeah, okay, finally, you know,
like I don't think. I don't think there are a
(09:43):
lot of black Bostonians who react to the reputation like,
oh my god, I don't know why the media's hung
up on this. Are we asking this question again? It's
more just like, yeah, we already know that. You know,
like I grew up real bougie. I grew up in
boarding schools because my parents were like get out of
the house, um. But you know that the type of
(10:05):
racism there was not like walking through Southie at night
type of racism. Like the racism there was, Okay, everyone,
it's Friday. We have to have another meeting about who
wrote the N word in the mirrors in the bathroom?
Like that was a very common The the amount of
meetings that we've had I had in middle school and
(10:25):
high school for who wrote the N words somewhere is
so high. And then also the middle school I went to,
in the dorms, people would just regularly use the word
tar baby, like don't be a tar baby about this thing.
So it's kind of like, you know, boogie white people racism,
Like my father's a Massachusetts governor. We are a lineage
(10:46):
of Captain's type type. Uh likeism. Yeah, it's a separate
peace racism, a little bit holding Caufield style racism, Nantucket racism.
Just scribed me a little bit of that process of
as a first time field producer at that time, sitting
down with Trevor and just go like what was that like,
(11:07):
like throwing your ideas of Trevor and just going, hey man,
this is what I think I want to do. Is
it okay? Or was it? Look I'm from there. The
writing inward on the mirror. I know how to handle this.
I don't know. You remember the way we used to
pitch in that big room, in the big conference room,
WHI Trevor, Like we have since figured out at the
(11:29):
Daily Show like a much more efficient way about like, Bro,
here's a paragraph. You know, I'm gonna email it to you.
Tell us what you like, and then we can talk
about it. But there was a time when all of
the field producers and the whole field team would go
into a conference room, you know, so like we're talking
like twenty twenty plus people and sit in a conference
room while Trevor is eating lunch, and we would just
(11:51):
almost as if it was like a game show, like
try to stand up and pitch our entire pieces to him. Um.
And this was during that time. So I I pulled
up the original pitch, uh, and I want to read
a little bit of it to you. So it came
to me, and it was supposed to be, Okay, this
is gonna be an antiques road show about all the
racist sort of signage and things Boston still had. And
(12:14):
that didn't make a whole lot of sense. So this
is what I wrote. And imagine like sitting across from
Trevor as he eats pasta and reading this from a page. Okay,
this is called by the numbers, how racist is Boston?
Here's the log line. Boston plans to change the name
of Yaki Way, a street next to the stadium where
the Red Sox play. The street is named after the
(12:37):
racist team owner Tom Yaki a k a. The Robert E.
Lee of baseball. The removal is a rare acknowledgment of
Boston's racist past. But how racist is it these days?
Roy Wood Jr. Sets out to answer this question, not
with anecdotes, but with the numbers, as loud and as
clear as Tom Yawky's thoughts on misgen Nation. This is
the first and by the numbers, a special investigative wing
(12:58):
of TDS that sets out to answer questions we never
thought to count on, how fund does the v A
and how bad is Flint's water? Trevor like it was
me reading that whole thing, and imagine that for every
field producer. It's like the most gut wrench I don't
even want to hear me read that now. And it's
(13:20):
funny because it's not the Trevor is not listening. He's
processing all of it. And then he comes out on
the other side and goes, here's what you need. Just
ask how racist is Boston? And then you siting in
like WHOA brilliant yeah, and you're like, none of so
none of the other stuff. But I think, you know,
he he that is one of his great gifts. He
(13:42):
would sit there and listen to all of that paragraph
that I just read and go what is the story?
And I'd go, well, I, well, I just read it,
you know, the Roberty Leave baseball and the thing about
Yucky and you know, and he would just go, know
what tell me? In one sentence, what is this story about?
And I think that that was a big education for
being in those rooms of oh damn yeah, like why
(14:05):
are we trying to impress you with all these jokes
and all of these bits, like you just want to
know the thing and the thing that he boiled it
down to for us was okay. So spotlight the ones
who exposed the Catholic church sex scandal. They're asking how
racist is Boston? How do they measure that? And then
that became the piece of how do you measure that?
Before we go to break uh real quick? Because you
(14:25):
talked about having so much stuff and having all these
different concepts. I distinctly remember saying that we need a
reis like progressive, like the segregation needs a mascot. I
did not know you all would put me in a
hot ass woke the Walrus costume for three fucking out.
(14:46):
I don't know why then, why did you say it?
Fucking if you don't want, if you don't want us
to make brilliant things, why did you say it? I
didn't think you all would actually put me in the costume.
I thought we would just hire somebody locally to walk
around on the walls outfit, and I go, I'm here
with will Get like mcgrefth the Crime Dog or Smokey
the Bear. But y'all put me in the damn thing.
(15:08):
I felt like most people took well to the Walrus.
I think it it made it more inviting, it disarmed
the moment because you're trying to talk about race at
a ballpark. People are gonna happy, happy, and have a
good time. And hey, pardon me, would you like to
talk about your views on racism here in the greater
Boston metro area? But I'm in a Walrus outfit so
(15:31):
you feel safe? And I feel like that helped get
us a lot more interviews. Who've got the best baseball?
Who's got the best football? Number? One? And creating a
system where structurally black people don't always get the same opportunities.
(15:52):
Its working already before we go to break What were
some of the things that did not make it in
the piece that you wish it make it in the piece?
I have one one thing, that one thing that I
can see in the piece I have written in the piece.
Act two, Roy sets out to do his own test
by setting up a can I Date your Daughter booth
(16:12):
in South Boston. What like this is what I am
a new as a new employee, am telling like Trevor
as he eats his pasta as we So then we're
gonna have Roy go to South Boston and have a booth.
It's like the it's like the beginning of like die
Hard with a vengeance. It's like, if we want Roy
(16:34):
to stay alive, we have to do half of these bits.
So that was one and then my favorite one was
you were walking around with like a Geiger counter, uh
that we call it a negrometer that was supposed to
measure how racist an area was or how racist. The
first thing was around like with the E K G
(16:56):
thing that the what where we we have emails of
We have this props genius named Shabbat and he the
emails I sent to him are pictures of that ghostbuster machine,
being like we need this buffer racism. All right, let's
take a quick break. When we're back, we will be
joined by Boston. A c P president to Nisha Sullivan,
(17:18):
this is beyond the scenes. It's gonna be a good time. Worcester, Okay.
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How racist is Boston was the question that we posed
to a lot of black folks over and Roxbury, posed
(20:57):
it to some white folks over that by Finnway Park,
and we posed it to this woman who was joining
us now. She is the president of the Boston a
c P Chapter, Denisia Sullivan. Welcome to Beyond the scenes.
First and foremost, thank you for having me. I'm excited
to bet her with you all today we're just just
(21:18):
a couple of black folks talking racism. You know, that's all.
No no big thing, just a just a regular day
of the week for us pretty much. I'm also happy
because we've been trying to get you back, but it's
a hard thing to be like, Okay, this person is
gonna come back to the Daily Show. But you were
so good when we first interviewed you. I'm gonna say
you're back. No, I appreciate being back, and especially to
(21:40):
talk about this and especially you talk about this topic. Now.
I'm excited to be back. So so before we get
to your opinions about the piece that we did three
years ago, Oh my god, it's been three years. I'm
i know, getting old. I first want to ask you
a little bit just about your work. What were some
(22:01):
of the things and circumstances in your life that got
you to where you are to make that decision to
not only because it's one thing to join in c P,
but you was like, hey, let me run it, give
me the keys, and let's start figuring this out. So
just walk me through your relationship with the city of
Boston and why this is a cause that matters to you.
(22:22):
You know, beyond forty hours a week, it seems well
it's forty plus, you know, so I'll start there. You know,
what a lot of people don't know, but seriously, because
what a lot of people don't know is that at
the local level, at the branch level, we are all
volunteer operated, right, so we have like another job, right,
So it's this is this is the second full time job, um,
(22:46):
which you know, really I think does speak to um
the need for something. There has to be something that
drives you. I think you're right, like, there has to
be something within you that drives you to someone to
want to do this work because it is hard, it's
emotionally draining, it is deeply personal, and for me it
(23:06):
is it's really the influence of my parents. You know,
I was born in Boston. I was raised outside of Boston.
My parents are from Boston. My grandparents are from Boston. UM.
But my dad, UM, you know, he spent his entire
career working in the Boston public schools. UM. He started
(23:26):
working in the Boston Public schools in nineteen seventy four.
September of nineteen seventy four, UM, when desegregation and in
Boston was being implemented forced busing. Many people remember those
images that really rocked the nation and certainly rocked our
city to the core. And my dad his job was
(23:47):
to ride the buses UM with the black kids from
Roxbury into South Boston UM and to make sure that
they were cared for and protected UM at a very
tumultuous time in our city. And UM he chose for
almost forty years to stay in the district. He moved
from being UM a bus monitor and I should say
(24:09):
my dad he got that job after graduating from Boston
College and so he moved on from being a bus
monitor to when he retired from BPS, he was the
school leader at the John D. O'Bryant School of Math
and Sciences, which is one of the most prestigious schools
UM in the Commonwealth. And so education was always spoken
(24:30):
highly of in our home and more importantly it was
education plus UM really a commitment, a responsibility UM to
ensure that we were doing all we could to ensure
equal access, UM for everyone to a quality education. That's
incredible for me to hear because my dad was you know,
(24:52):
in undergrad in you know, during the bussing crisis, and
he I grew up with him talking about stories of
way watching folks throw bricks at black school children through
the windows of these buses, and the idea that your dad,
his legacy is being on the inside of that bus,
not just oh I was black in Boston and saw
this happening, but I was the one trying to keep
(25:14):
these kids safe. I mean, that's an incredible legacy. It's selfless.
It's selfless in the sense of at a time where
it really wasn't safe for any black folks, he was
volunteering to protect some of the most vulnerable black folks.
That's wh which which rolls me into the second question
(25:35):
that we traveled to your city to attempt to answer it,
which is how racist is Boston? Which, which which I
also love c J, is that we didn't The question
was never is Boston racist? Like we already know that. Okay,
we're talking about degrees here? How how racist? So Tnisha,
(25:56):
has Boston earned that reputation in this sense? Like because
you think about the South, Why why is it such
a surprise to people about Northeast racism? Because yeah, I mean,
because we project in the Northeast, in New England, we project.
(26:19):
You know, uh, really a liberal and a progressive banner, right,
Like we we really pride ourselves on, um, on being
progressive and having progressive values and being inclusive. UM. And
so when people are confronted with the contradiction of you know,
(26:40):
kind of the the values that we espouse and and
quite frankly some of the issues that we've led on.
I mean you think about like marriage equality, you know,
Massachusetts led on that. You know, healthcare um for all right, Um,
Massachusetts led on that, right. But when you um kind
of look at the contrary addiction of these progressive and
(27:01):
liberal values on some social issues, and then you look
at really how um, what the data says about you know,
racial equity in Boston, people are just they scratched their
heads and they're like, how could that be? Because you've
gotten so many other things, right, how come you're not
getting this one right? Right? Right, this piece right? And
(27:23):
I'll say, I think a lot of it really does
go back to, um, the racial strife that that we
experienced here in the city. Certainly, Um, what the nation
saw was you know, through force busting here in Boston,
that history, that trauma we've never really dealt with here
in the city like we've never really we've never really
(27:44):
had like truth and reconciliation on that issue. And you
can still feel, um the trauma and the division in
the city. It's palpable. Even post George Floyd. Even post
George Floyd, you still Boston still has this reputation for
(28:07):
me in a racist place. It does. But you know,
I have to say, you don't have to defend my city,
you know, because you know, Boston, I do believe is
one of the greatest cities in our country. And you know,
there's so much opportunity here and there's so many good
things about Boston. Um, but yet we still struggle with
(28:28):
racism like many other cities. But I would you know,
I think admittedly, we are uniquely positioned as a city, UM,
with all of the resources that we have here to
tackle the issue, and yet we have not. You know,
I think Roy is kind of is pushing in this territory.
But it's you know, what I find funny about the
(28:52):
question in Boston is how allergic folks are even to
the question of is this a racist place? How racist
is it? You know, you talk about New York, You're
like those people in New York are assholes, and people
are like, yeah, that's fair. But if you even suggest
that you're wondering how racist Boston is, people are like,
how dare you? You know, even Kyrie recently is you know,
(29:12):
all he said was the subtle racism. He he just
said subtle racism, and people are like, oh my god,
it's like a water bottle. I mean, it's not my
first time being an opponent in Boston. Uh so, you know,
I'm just looking forward to compete with my teammates and um,
you know, hopefully we can just keep it strictly basketball.
You know, there's no belligerence or any racism going on.
(29:33):
Subtle racism and people yelling ship from the crowd. He
didn't say these people are big as He was just
like the subtle racism, And people are like, how dare
you suggest that there's subtle racism? Do you feel like
that allergy to talking about Boston's history? Do you feel
like folks are less allergic now than they were because
(29:55):
you look at this piece. When we look back at
this piece, it feels so two thousand in eighteen, It
feels so pre It is a conversation with folks who
you know, it is so clearly even talking about how
detailed the piece has to be about talking about structural
racism and educating the audience on what structural racism is.
Do you feel like folks have more tools now or
(30:18):
do you feel like the allergies that the conversation now?
I know that there's been some improvement, c J. I
don't know if you knew this or not, but Bobby
Brown got his own street in Boston finally talking to
speaking of progress, find racism solved? You know, we've got
the Massachusetts fifty four monument and we got that Bobby Brown.
(30:40):
Other than Bobby Brown. Way, in what ways has the
conversation evolved? Yeah? No, I think I think you know,
y'all listen, Um, everybody loves new addition and everybody loves
Bobby Brown, so you know, so that is progress. Um,
you know. But I love your framing of this, c J. Right,
like as an allergy. I I think of it similarly
(31:03):
like this is this, this is there's something like really
deep and um systemic about it, right, and and in
so many ways, like I feel like we have to
or we should be, you know, tackling the issue like
we would, you know, a disease, right, like the disease
that it is right that said I I will you know,
(31:23):
I do want to acknowledge that last year, in particular,
we did have more people UM in the city who
were like, oh, is that what y'all experience? Like? Is
that is that what you've been talking about? You know?
(31:45):
And and and so right, So there were you know,
I think, um, you know, not an insignificant representation of
the community that that did have some lightbulbs go off, UM,
And for a period of time, we're deeply committed to
wanting to talk about racism. But even then real talk
(32:07):
like they wanted to talk about racism as a related
to policing, right, you know, once we said, look, we're
gonna do policing reform here in the city of Boston. Yeah,
and we're gonna do policing reform in Massachusetts. But understand
that this is just the beginning of the conversation. If
we're really if you're really serious about UM helping us
(32:29):
now to dismantle this racism that you just now come
to understand exists, then we need to have a conversation
about economic inequality. We need to have a conversation about
inequities and education that are significantly impacting black and brown
kids year after year after year. We have to have
a conversation about why it is that the COVID nineteen
(32:51):
pandemic disproportionately impacted black and brown people in low income people.
And it's not because we're more susceptible to the virus.
It's because of the condition ends that we are, that
that we've been forced to live in. It's because of
the neglect of our health care system as it relates
to our as it relates to our physical and mental
well being. Right, And people are like, oh, this isn't
(33:12):
just about policing, because at the moment you go, okay,
well we're gonna talk about racism. Let's break it down,
you know, let's let's let's talk about Boston's role in
the slave trade and put that in the textbook. No, yeah,
you're talking about putting it into the history book. It's
like it's almost like fixing racism is when you take
(33:34):
your car in and you only want to get a tire.
That's all. You want to fix the tire, the police tire,
and then come back a man, we ran the diagnostic man.
You've got some homeowners and equity, You've got bill reform.
You got a little bill reform acting up underneath your
catalytic converter. We got some you've got some structural racism
(33:57):
and unemployment. They didn't know. That's right. The tire just
the tire place. So after the break, I want to
talk a little bit more about some of those ties
and diagnostics that have been going on in your city
that you all have been starting to check and have
been starting to change, because in defense of your city,
we're gonna talk about some of good stuff just going
(34:17):
on over there. We're gonna talk about some of the
good things that's been making moves over there. So it's
my pleasure to be joined by the President, the most
esteemed Madam President of the Boston w CP Tunisia Sullivan.
More with her when we go beyond the scenes one
more time, and you two c j UI. This episode
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Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not
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of Healthy Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, and
the Council. Madam Sullivan, we were talking in the previous
(36:07):
break about some of the strides that Boston has made,
you know, since since the racial awakening that we had
as a country in twenty I'm so tired of people
used the dialogue that we had, and we've had a dialogue,
and so since the time, we're gonna give credit where
credit is due with the city of Boston and some
(36:30):
of the things that they've done to try and turn
the page. Bobby Brown got a street. The Celtics hid
a black head coach this year, So you got a
brother back at the Helm with the Celtics. C J.
Is that everything? I think? That's am I missing any
of them? Oh, you guys had you'll have a black
(36:51):
mayor now, yes, you know, not just a black mayor.
We got a sister. We got we got a sister.
We gotta sister. Okay. Um. So with the election of
of Joe Biden, he actually, UM, he nominated our former mayor,
Marty Wals should be Secretary of Labor. And under our
(37:14):
charter here in Boston, the city council president becomes acting
mayor UM if the mayor vacates his her office. UM.
And our city council president is a black woman and UM,
so she is now our acting mayor. And yes, Kim Janey.
That's exciting too because in the spotlight piece that we had,
(37:36):
you know, as part of this field piece, one of
the spotlight things that they were saying is Boston has
never had a black mayor, unlike all of these other places.
So that must feel great, not yet, not yet, UM,
but you know, but it's good, right. It's it's great
to UM to have her in the seat. We actually
have a mayoral election this year and the sixth leading
(38:00):
candidates at this time are all people of color. UM.
Four of them are women. UM. And so it is
highly probable that Boston will elect um A. It will
we will elect a person of color, and that we
may also elect a woman to be mayored. We've never
(38:21):
had an elected woman mayor either, so so you've had
a black mayor sneak in and now you get one
of the legitimate way as well to really cemented you know.
But but but it's reflective of you know, again on
the progress side. Since we were last together, UM, we
have the most diverse city council that we've ever had
(38:44):
in the history of the City of Boston. And so
some of the issues that the City Council UM has
tackled UM over the past couple of years have really
spoken to the ideological evolution of our city, specifically on
issues of racial justice and racial equity. UM. This year,
two of our Counselor's Council Mahia and Councilor bak UM
have introduced UM the Conversation on Reparations UH to to
(39:07):
talk about the role of Boston and the slave trade.
We know that, you know, people often talk about the
enslavement of black folks primarily in the South, although we
know here in Boston, UM that black folks were enslaved
as well. But we also understand that Boston UM played
a significant role in helping to finance UH slavery in
(39:30):
this country, right and so UM, so really pushing the
conversation on issues of racial justice and racial equity here
in Boston UM has been a positive outgrowth of a
more diverse city council. How much of in reparation we'll
be talking here last this for Boston, current Boston residents
(39:50):
of how long, like when I went to college, like
when I was at Family, you had to be living
in state for a year to be eligible for in
state tuition. So to be eligible for the ball Austin
Reparation Initiative, as I'm going to call it, well, we're
gonna we'll see, we'll see, we're gonna we're gonna dive
into the conversation. We're gonna dive into the history, um,
(40:11):
you know, and understand the impact of of of slavery
in Boston today, and then we'll see what reparations might
what the repair might look like. But you know, so
so often when we talk about reparations, people go right to, well,
what's the dollar number, what's that number? Before we get
(40:31):
to the number. I'm just saying, before we get to
the number, we really like, we've got to unpack this
thing so that we can understand where the roots are
of of of this very um significant problem staying um
on our society, so that we can then see how
it's manifesting itself today. You know, and then we can
(40:52):
talk about what it will take to repair, because that's
where reparations is. It's repair, it's helping to repair. It's
kind of like when you fight with you know, someone
you're in a relationship with, and they're like, Okay, what
do I what do I have to do? What do
I have to do to get you to stop talking
about You're like, no, we still need to talk about
what you did in order to talk about what is owed.
(41:14):
If you're gonna have a meaningful conversation about reparations, you
gotta be willing to get to the root. And those
are difficult conversations. And when you talk about a place
like Boston, you know, it's gonna require us to do
a lot of self reflection. Um that can be might
be painful, But if we want to move forward, um
(41:36):
beyond celebrating having a black mayor, um, we have to
be willing to lean into those conversations. So off of
the black mayor thing, you know, this is what I've noticed,
and I call it the empire striking back for lack
of a better phrase, All the good stuff that happened
politically on the behalf of candidates has benefit black folks.
(42:01):
It's been a lot of laws that they're trying to
start passing and sneaking under the table to make sure
that these good times don't keep rolling at mid terms.
Talk to me a little bit about what's happening in
Boston now on the heels of Kim Janey being I
guess appointed mayor. Where now if you're a city council
you can't even be mayor. Don't even think about it. Yeah,
(42:22):
so you know, we do see backlash and this is
you know, I think, um, you know, it's it's like
the civil is there such a thing as civil racism?
I don't know, we're gonna make that up right, It's
you know, it's like it's a polite racism racist but
you know we're civil about that's Boston racism. It's just like,
(42:44):
you have this diversity council doing all of these great
things that you claim or helping all of the people,
and now you're telling me none of these people can
ever aspire to do something more for the city. Well,
you know that what what's what's interesting? And so a
few weeks ago, the city Council decided that since since
the the city council president is elected by the members
(43:05):
of the city Council, and the acting mayor is only
acting mayor because she is uh, you know, the president
of the council. They voted for the first time in
our history, right, they voted now all of a sudden,
to give themselves the right to remove her from her
city Council presidency, which would thereby remove her as acting mayor.
(43:28):
You know, I find it. You know, it's so interesting
that after you know how many hundreds of years, right now, um,
now they need to make it clear to everybody that
they have the power to take her out of the office.
And you know, even if it were a legitimate position
to have, you know, those types of actions, you know,
(43:51):
as a black woman, right, those types of actions in
a moment like this absolutely give me pause. And and
I think they should give all of us pause, because
that's the stuff that those are the micro aggressions. I mean,
that's a nice way to put it, right right, right right,
you know, like like that's the stuff, like why would
(44:13):
you do that, you know, except to send a message.
You send a message if it's a law. It is
not a micro aggression, that's a law. I mean, did
they even try to hide it where they like this
was on the to do list for a hundred years.
It's not just a man. And no, they did not.
(44:33):
And in fact, you know what they have been saying
over the past few weeks is that they're just not
pleased with you know, how she's interacted with them. They
feel like she should be having more conversation with them.
She should, you know, they should know more about what
she's doing, and you know, all of these good things.
And now I have to say, you know, these are
issues and concerns that they've had with mayors in the past, right,
(44:53):
but um, but to take this step, I just you
know that one. I just said, you know what this is.
It's shameful, especially given um, the demographic makeup of the
council at this time. There is so much joy in
my heart for being able to talk to you today
(45:14):
because the depths to which we've been able to go
and explore this subject. This is why we go beyond
the scene and I joke about the title, but like,
this is why we go beyond because sitting with you
for the actual field peace, which I hope you watch.
I hope you like that. I hope that did you.
It was great. It was great, Okay, alright, what if
(45:36):
we got to this point and Tunisia is like, you know,
I've never seen it. Let me tell you something. There
are a lot of fans out there for The Daily Show.
I mean I consistently get hit up. People are like,
oh my goodness, I'm sorry you on the Daily Show.
I'm like, oh yeah, because people keep reposting the piece
every time Boston trip up keep I have a question
(45:57):
for you, Roy of You know that is one of
my favorite pieces, not just because you know a white
man outside Fenway is going it's not racist, because I
don't feel it. Talk to me about what it feels.
What is happening in your head when you move from
talking to folks who are saying racist things to you
and you are being incredibly polite but managing to find
(46:19):
the humor of of catching them showing themselves in that moment.
Talk to me about what is happening for you when
then you shift that lens and then approach talking to
um black folks. For me, the thing I learned on
the very first field piece I shot with Jordan Clapper,
when we spoke with a cop who didn't believe that
(46:41):
there was any real police harassment problems in this country.
We spoke to X Scott and I remember getting angry
like I was, legit angry, our police racist. It's good
enough for me. I'm satisfied. We're good here. OK, I'm unbelieving.
(47:01):
Are you serious? The producer Stu Mills. We stopped and
took ten He pretended that we needed to time my
battery or whatever you put me on into the Holly
sudd I'm just giving me this time to calm down.
I know it's heavy, whatever, whatever. And what I learned
in that moment is that if you get angry, it's
(47:22):
not funny anymore. We're on Comedy Central. I am a comedian.
My job is to find the joke. The viewer can
handle all of the other emotions that will come with us.
They don't need me to be the conduit for that. Also,
if I'm getting angry now you're not talking as much,
You're gonna close in or it's gonna become a confrontation.
(47:42):
Jordan Clapper, it's by far the master Like to this day,
I understand now why they paired me with him to
go out and do that piece, because if you're to
sit me there alone, it has just been a fist
fight and lawsuit and I'm fired. But when talking to
people who don't understand in the issue, if you just
let them talk, they're going. The funny is in how
(48:06):
incredulously oblivious they are. Did I form a sentence like that?
Thank you Alabama Public Schools. There's there's something though, in
talking with black people that there's no joke. How outrageous
the truth is is enough for most of us. I mean,
when we sat and talked with the brother in the diner,
(48:27):
I don't even think we used it. He was like, yeah, man,
I'm moving to Atlanta this week. I can't take it
here no more. I gotta be around black foots. And
this is a black person who was Boston through and
through and was just like, nah, I'm checking out. There's
opportunities down there. So she said, I'm gonna start my
business in Atlanta. So that was you know, to me,
c J. To answer the question, it's just more about
(48:49):
just having honest conversations about something that's so ridiculous, and
you talk to black people to get the truth, and
then you go across the Fenway to talk to people
who have no clue what you're talking about, and it's
just wow, Like It's just one of those moments, you know.
But I think that's what I This isn't even a question,
but just a comment of that's what I love about
(49:12):
watching you work. You know, like field producers, we just
get to watch the correspondence running full speed. And what
I what I love about watching you work is you
fight for these human centers and human moments to the piece.
It's not just like wow, they said some wild ship.
It's like, now, let's go over to the Silver Slipper
restaurant in Roxbury and and actually here a moment of
(49:33):
a man saying, you know, even if it can't make
the final piece of like I am this day figuring
out how to move to Atlanta because I cannot take
it here. And I think you fight for this human
center for all of those pieces. Well, I try my
best and speaking and fighting for humans. Madam Sullivan, We
thank you immensely for all the work that you're doing
(49:55):
in Boston. I wish that we you know, we need,
we need another podcast that goes beyond beyond the scenes.
You go double beyond and break down even everything else
that we didn't even get to talk about today. Thank
you so much for your work where can people support
the Boston a c P Chapter. Well, we're online and
(50:16):
a a CP Boston dot com. You can also find
us on social media. All right, Well, thank you so much.
And c J. You did something big this year, brother,
you made a whole last documentary about Confederate monuments and
people who don't want them to be taken down. Just
(50:36):
to be just to be clear, it's not an ASK documentary.
It is a whole as documentary about Okay, So if
you are coming for an ASK documentary, that's another project
I'm working on. This is about Confederate monuments and the
question Boston is asking how how racist Boston? It is
asking that of you know, the white South and of
the whole country. You can find it right now on
PBS for free. It's called The Neutral Ground. Um and
(51:00):
my executive producer, you know, he's he's okay, he's fine.
You have heard rumors about that guy, J. Well, look,
that's all the time we have for behind the scenes today.
Hope that you had a good time going beyond the
scenes with us. We appreciate you so much for listening
on the behalf of everybody at the Daily Show. Thank
(51:22):
you and listen to the Daily show Beyond the Scenes
on Apple Podcast, the I Heart Radio app or wherever
you get your podcast worst or shirt. Yeah, it's just
like the ocean. You're sure, Worcestershire. That's it. I want
(51:44):
to go even further beyond the scenes. Check out the
video version of Beyond the Scenes on the Daily Shows
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What's up, everybody. I'm Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond
(01:31):
the Scenes, the podcast where readdress issues that were originally
talked about on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. I
sit down with correspondence, producers, writers, anybody I can get
my hands on to break down a lot of these issues.
Today we asked the question how racist is Boston? I
sat down with some people from the Boston Globe, some
(01:51):
people from the n double a c P. I even
put on a wokey Walrus costume to really get to
the bottom of the issue. Because I don't know if
you've heard or not, but Boston's got a little bit
of a problem with race. Here's a clip point. So
one study we found showed that the median net worth
of white families in Boston was two hundred forty seven thousand,
five hundred dollars. Compare that to the media net worth
(02:13):
of black families in Boston, which was eight dollars eight
accounting in thousands, like eight thousand dollars, No, just eight
eight dollars eight dollars. That's that's not even a grande soil.
Spotlight wants to know why black enrollment at many of
Boston's universities hasn't really gone up in thirty years, or
why there's so little diversity in boardrooms and hospitals, or
(02:37):
how among eight major cities, black people voted Boston the
least welcoming to people of color. All right, So today
we're going beyond the scenes with Daily Show field producers
c J. Hunt, and later we're going to be joined
by Boston in w a c P President to Nissa Sullivan.
But first, CJ, how are you doing brother Boston original?
(02:59):
Were you born and raised in Boston? How long were
you there? I was born in Worcester, uh, and then
I was raised for for a while in Boston. I
still can't pronounce that word Worcester wire. Yeah, that's that's
exactly that's a taste like me trying to pronounce it.
(03:22):
So we haven't had many field producers on the show
yet because y'all are always out doing stuff in the field,
and it's it's an interesting job because, you know, as
a field producer, you all are kind of helping to
put all the pieces together. The visuals, the writers kind
of hand you an idea. You all helped to kind
(03:44):
of craft what the concept will be as well and
then you're out the door with the camera's trying to
figure this out. I guess first thing, I'll ask you
out the gate. Um. I know this piece wasn't my
idea because I know as a black person, I would
have never pitched Hey, let me go to ball as
a black man and ask everybody if it's racist or not.
How did this piece all come about? Also not my idea.
(04:07):
As a black man who looks like a Mexican man. Um,
I who was grew up in Boston, I know how
racist it is. This isn't This isn't a question. A
lot of black folks are asking, you know, numerically, how
racist is it. It's just it is more an intuitive
piece of knowledge. But I think that question came to
(04:28):
the piece because, Um, this is actually my first piece
on the show. It was a spring of two thousand eighteen. Um,
you know, I just met you. You were the first
person I met on the show, and they were like, Okay,
how would you like to go out with Roy? Here's
a piece we have cooking. The piece originally was about
Michael Chay. You know he had been he had said
on S and L you know, I'm mixed like the
(04:50):
Patriots were versus the Falcons for the Super Bowl, and
Michael Jay was like, Hey, I'm excited to see the
blackest city beat the most racist city I've ever been to.
So the piece originally was supposed to be about how
Bostonians felt about Michael Jay shipping on their city. Oh,
he's always taking shots at them, and they're always mad
at Jay, always mad at Ja. And yeah, it's it's
(05:13):
his staten Island, I guess. So it was it was
about that. And um also they were changing the name
of Yucky Way, which was you know, named after a
Red Sox uh manager who you know, kept them from integrating.
So originally the piece was supposed to be about that,
and then very quickly, in pitching to Trevor, he was like, no,
(05:35):
y'all gotta you'll gotta change the question. It's one of
those pieces that I enjoyed because we go out the
door with a single question. We're attempting to ascertain. We're
simply trying to find out how racist is it? And
so we all, here's a little beyond the scene. You
want to go beyond the scenes, motherfucker bring them. We
shot all of this in one day, which isn't the norm.
(06:01):
But when we started putting the day together, it kind
of made sense. And so I remember, you know, we
went over we went over to Roxbury Um in Boston,
the black side of town, if you don't know, and
we spoke with black people over there. Then we went
over to the Boston Globe and we spoke with a
p people, and then we went over to Finway to
(06:23):
start doing Man on the Street and just kind of
talking to layman Um. You know, they were out and about.
The thing that was so visible to me right away
by the end of the day was just how oblivious
some people were to what's going on. I distinctly remember
us asking one person, you know, is that racism? She goes, well,
I've never seen it. I don't see that racism myself. Honestly, No,
(06:44):
I don't think Boston's a racist city. I don't think
in Boston is a racist city at all. So how
do you know I don't feel it? As if that's
the only way it can be confirmed is you must
see it and experience. You must witness a black person
getting kicked out of a store, the cops beating his
ass to believe that it's real. And I thought that
(07:06):
that was kind of disheartening in a way, Um, why
why do you think Boston has his reputation? It's also
the best part of the piece to me. You know,
you you asked that old couple, you know, this old
white couple outside of Fenway, do you think Boston is
a racist city? And what I love about watching you
work is the questions are so basic. You know, you're
just asking person after person, you know, like do you
(07:29):
think it deserves this rep And they say, you know,
I don't think Boston is a racist city. I don't
see I don't see it. I've never felt it. And
the idea is like, when would you have felt it?
Sir and ma'am? You know you you like seven year
old white people, when would someone have been racist to you?
So But but I do think that that's you know,
this is two thousand eighteen. That's how people then and
(07:51):
some people still now think about racism. It's like, you know,
if someone's not shouting the N word at me or
I don't see it happen on a train, that's the
only type of racism that can exist. So I love
that that's a part of the piece. People comment most
about it in the comments about damn when this this
couple says this thing. And I think, you know, most Bostonian,
most white Bostonians, and most white people in America. I
(08:13):
think still think if I don't feel it personally, then
it doesn't exist. You're being from that area right. Clearly
you've felt it growing up as a black looking Mexican man,
as a Mexican looking black, as a Negro. Yeah, as
a Filipino Latin ex black man looking man. How did
(08:36):
it feel? Because you could feel that and you know
that's real, and then to be able to come back
home with a camera and a correspondent and security, lots
of security, not always roll security. You won't shout out, um,
shout out the yelling who wants this? Um? If we
(09:01):
had a real confrontational security. You're asking questions in the background.
You here security, try it, Try it. I okay. I
don't want to say it felt like vengeance, but it
felt vindicating to come back to Boston and then in
(09:21):
a place I grew up, you know, asking this question
with a camera because you know, I think white Bostonians
who I know, some of their reaction was, oh, man,
are you really going to do that? Come on? Like
give us a break. But black Bostonians I know and
who grew up with we're like, yeah, okay, finally, you know,
like I don't think. I don't think there are a
(09:43):
lot of black Bostonians who react to the reputation like,
oh my god, I don't know why the media's hung
up on this. Are we asking this question again? It's
more just like, yeah, we already know that. You know,
like I grew up real bougie. I grew up in
boarding schools because my parents were like get out of
the house, um. But you know that the type of
(10:05):
racism there was not like walking through Southie at night
type of racism. Like the racism there was, Okay, everyone,
it's Friday. We have to have another meeting about who
wrote the N word in the mirrors in the bathroom?
Like that was a very common The the amount of
meetings that we've had I had in middle school and
(10:25):
high school for who wrote the N words somewhere is
so high. And then also the middle school I went to,
in the dorms, people would just regularly use the word
tar baby, like don't be a tar baby about this thing.
So it's kind of like, you know, boogie white people racism,
Like my father's a Massachusetts governor. We are a lineage
(10:46):
of Captain's type type. Uh likeism. Yeah, it's a separate
peace racism, a little bit holding Caufield style racism, Nantucket racism.
Just scribed me a little bit of that process of
as a first time field producer at that time, sitting
down with Trevor and just go like what was that like,
(11:07):
like throwing your ideas of Trevor and just going, hey man,
this is what I think I want to do. Is
it okay? Or was it? Look I'm from there. The
writing inward on the mirror. I know how to handle this.
I don't know. You remember the way we used to
pitch in that big room, in the big conference room,
WHI Trevor, Like we have since figured out at the
(11:29):
Daily Show like a much more efficient way about like, Bro,
here's a paragraph. You know, I'm gonna email it to you.
Tell us what you like, and then we can talk
about it. But there was a time when all of
the field producers and the whole field team would go
into a conference room, you know, so like we're talking
like twenty twenty plus people and sit in a conference
room while Trevor is eating lunch, and we would just
(11:51):
almost as if it was like a game show, like
try to stand up and pitch our entire pieces to him. Um.
And this was during that time. So I I pulled
up the original pitch, uh, and I want to read
a little bit of it to you. So it came
to me, and it was supposed to be, Okay, this
is gonna be an antiques road show about all the
racist sort of signage and things Boston still had. And
(12:14):
that didn't make a whole lot of sense. So this
is what I wrote. And imagine like sitting across from
Trevor as he eats pasta and reading this from a page. Okay,
this is called by the numbers, how racist is Boston?
Here's the log line. Boston plans to change the name
of Yaki Way, a street next to the stadium where
the Red Sox play. The street is named after the
(12:37):
racist team owner Tom Yaki a k a. The Robert E.
Lee of baseball. The removal is a rare acknowledgment of
Boston's racist past. But how racist is it these days?
Roy Wood Jr. Sets out to answer this question, not
with anecdotes, but with the numbers, as loud and as
clear as Tom Yawky's thoughts on misgen Nation. This is
the first and by the numbers, a special investigative wing
(12:58):
of TDS that sets out to answer questions we never
thought to count on, how fund does the v A
and how bad is Flint's water? Trevor like it was
me reading that whole thing, and imagine that for every
field producer. It's like the most gut wrench I don't
even want to hear me read that now. And it's
(13:20):
funny because it's not the Trevor is not listening. He's
processing all of it. And then he comes out on
the other side and goes, here's what you need. Just
ask how racist is Boston? And then you siting in
like WHOA brilliant yeah, and you're like, none of so
none of the other stuff. But I think, you know,
he he that is one of his great gifts. He
(13:42):
would sit there and listen to all of that paragraph
that I just read and go what is the story?
And I'd go, well, I, well, I just read it,
you know, the Roberty Leave baseball and the thing about
Yucky and you know, and he would just go, know
what tell me? In one sentence, what is this story about?
And I think that that was a big education for
being in those rooms of oh damn yeah, like why
(14:05):
are we trying to impress you with all these jokes
and all of these bits, like you just want to
know the thing and the thing that he boiled it
down to for us was okay. So spotlight the ones
who exposed the Catholic church sex scandal. They're asking how
racist is Boston? How do they measure that? And then
that became the piece of how do you measure that?
Before we go to break uh real quick? Because you
(14:25):
talked about having so much stuff and having all these
different concepts. I distinctly remember saying that we need a
reis like progressive, like the segregation needs a mascot. I
did not know you all would put me in a
hot ass woke the Walrus costume for three fucking out.
(14:46):
I don't know why then, why did you say it?
Fucking if you don't want, if you don't want us
to make brilliant things, why did you say it? I
didn't think you all would actually put me in the costume.
I thought we would just hire somebody locally to walk
around on the walls outfit, and I go, I'm here
with will Get like mcgrefth the Crime Dog or Smokey
the Bear. But y'all put me in the damn thing.
(15:08):
I felt like most people took well to the Walrus.
I think it it made it more inviting, it disarmed
the moment because you're trying to talk about race at
a ballpark. People are gonna happy, happy, and have a
good time. And hey, pardon me, would you like to
talk about your views on racism here in the greater
Boston metro area? But I'm in a Walrus outfit so
(15:31):
you feel safe? And I feel like that helped get
us a lot more interviews. Who've got the best baseball?
Who's got the best football? Number? One? And creating a
system where structurally black people don't always get the same opportunities.
(15:52):
Its working already before we go to break What were
some of the things that did not make it in
the piece that you wish it make it in the piece?
I have one one thing, that one thing that I
can see in the piece I have written in the piece.
Act two, Roy sets out to do his own test
by setting up a can I Date your Daughter booth
(16:12):
in South Boston. What like this is what I am
a new as a new employee, am telling like Trevor
as he eats his pasta as we So then we're
gonna have Roy go to South Boston and have a booth.
It's like the it's like the beginning of like die
Hard with a vengeance. It's like, if we want Roy
(16:34):
to stay alive, we have to do half of these bits.
So that was one and then my favorite one was
you were walking around with like a Geiger counter, uh
that we call it a negrometer that was supposed to
measure how racist an area was or how racist. The
first thing was around like with the E K G
(16:56):
thing that the what where we we have emails of
We have this props genius named Shabbat and he the
emails I sent to him are pictures of that ghostbuster machine,
being like we need this buffer racism. All right, let's
take a quick break. When we're back, we will be
joined by Boston. A c P president to Nisha Sullivan,
(17:18):
this is beyond the scenes. It's gonna be a good time. Worcester, Okay.
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How racist is Boston was the question that we posed
to a lot of black folks over and Roxbury, posed
(20:57):
it to some white folks over that by Finnway Park,
and we posed it to this woman who was joining
us now. She is the president of the Boston a
c P Chapter, Denisia Sullivan. Welcome to Beyond the scenes.
First and foremost, thank you for having me. I'm excited
to bet her with you all today we're just just
(21:18):
a couple of black folks talking racism. You know, that's all.
No no big thing, just a just a regular day
of the week for us pretty much. I'm also happy
because we've been trying to get you back, but it's
a hard thing to be like, Okay, this person is
gonna come back to the Daily Show. But you were
so good when we first interviewed you. I'm gonna say
you're back. No, I appreciate being back, and especially to
(21:40):
talk about this and especially you talk about this topic. Now.
I'm excited to be back. So so before we get
to your opinions about the piece that we did three
years ago, Oh my god, it's been three years. I'm
i know, getting old. I first want to ask you
a little bit just about your work. What were some
(22:01):
of the things and circumstances in your life that got
you to where you are to make that decision to
not only because it's one thing to join in c P,
but you was like, hey, let me run it, give
me the keys, and let's start figuring this out. So
just walk me through your relationship with the city of
Boston and why this is a cause that matters to you.
(22:22):
You know, beyond forty hours a week, it seems well
it's forty plus, you know, so I'll start there. You know,
what a lot of people don't know, but seriously, because
what a lot of people don't know is that at
the local level, at the branch level, we are all
volunteer operated, right, so we have like another job, right,
So it's this is this is the second full time job, um,
(22:46):
which you know, really I think does speak to um
the need for something. There has to be something that
drives you. I think you're right, like, there has to
be something within you that drives you to someone to
want to do this work because it is hard, it's
emotionally draining, it is deeply personal, and for me it
(23:06):
is it's really the influence of my parents. You know,
I was born in Boston. I was raised outside of Boston.
My parents are from Boston. My grandparents are from Boston. UM.
But my dad, UM, you know, he spent his entire
career working in the Boston public schools. UM. He started
(23:26):
working in the Boston Public schools in nineteen seventy four.
September of nineteen seventy four, UM, when desegregation and in
Boston was being implemented forced busing. Many people remember those
images that really rocked the nation and certainly rocked our
city to the core. And my dad his job was
(23:47):
to ride the buses UM with the black kids from
Roxbury into South Boston UM and to make sure that
they were cared for and protected UM at a very
tumultuous time in our city. And UM he chose for
almost forty years to stay in the district. He moved
from being UM a bus monitor and I should say
(24:09):
my dad he got that job after graduating from Boston
College and so he moved on from being a bus
monitor to when he retired from BPS, he was the
school leader at the John D. O'Bryant School of Math
and Sciences, which is one of the most prestigious schools
UM in the Commonwealth. And so education was always spoken
(24:30):
highly of in our home and more importantly it was
education plus UM really a commitment, a responsibility UM to
ensure that we were doing all we could to ensure
equal access, UM for everyone to a quality education. That's
incredible for me to hear because my dad was you know,
(24:52):
in undergrad in you know, during the bussing crisis, and
he I grew up with him talking about stories of
way watching folks throw bricks at black school children through
the windows of these buses, and the idea that your dad,
his legacy is being on the inside of that bus,
not just oh I was black in Boston and saw
this happening, but I was the one trying to keep
(25:14):
these kids safe. I mean, that's an incredible legacy. It's selfless.
It's selfless in the sense of at a time where
it really wasn't safe for any black folks, he was
volunteering to protect some of the most vulnerable black folks.
That's wh which which rolls me into the second question
(25:35):
that we traveled to your city to attempt to answer it,
which is how racist is Boston? Which, which which I
also love c J, is that we didn't The question
was never is Boston racist? Like we already know that. Okay,
we're talking about degrees here? How how racist? So Tnisha,
(25:56):
has Boston earned that reputation in this sense? Like because
you think about the South, Why why is it such
a surprise to people about Northeast racism? Because yeah, I mean,
because we project in the Northeast, in New England, we project.
(26:19):
You know, uh, really a liberal and a progressive banner, right,
Like we we really pride ourselves on, um, on being
progressive and having progressive values and being inclusive. UM. And
so when people are confronted with the contradiction of you know,
(26:40):
kind of the the values that we espouse and and
quite frankly some of the issues that we've led on.
I mean you think about like marriage equality, you know,
Massachusetts led on that. You know, healthcare um for all right, Um,
Massachusetts led on that, right. But when you um kind
of look at the contrary addiction of these progressive and
(27:01):
liberal values on some social issues, and then you look
at really how um, what the data says about you know,
racial equity in Boston, people are just they scratched their
heads and they're like, how could that be? Because you've
gotten so many other things, right, how come you're not
getting this one right? Right? Right, this piece right? And
(27:23):
I'll say, I think a lot of it really does
go back to, um, the racial strife that that we
experienced here in the city. Certainly, Um, what the nation
saw was you know, through force busting here in Boston,
that history, that trauma we've never really dealt with here
in the city like we've never really we've never really
(27:44):
had like truth and reconciliation on that issue. And you
can still feel, um the trauma and the division in
the city. It's palpable. Even post George Floyd. Even post
George Floyd, you still Boston still has this reputation for
(28:07):
me in a racist place. It does. But you know,
I have to say, you don't have to defend my city,
you know, because you know, Boston, I do believe is
one of the greatest cities in our country. And you know,
there's so much opportunity here and there's so many good
things about Boston. Um, but yet we still struggle with
(28:28):
racism like many other cities. But I would you know,
I think admittedly, we are uniquely positioned as a city, UM,
with all of the resources that we have here to
tackle the issue, and yet we have not. You know,
I think Roy is kind of is pushing in this territory.
But it's you know, what I find funny about the
(28:52):
question in Boston is how allergic folks are even to
the question of is this a racist place? How racist
is it? You know, you talk about New York, You're
like those people in New York are assholes, and people
are like, yeah, that's fair. But if you even suggest
that you're wondering how racist Boston is, people are like,
how dare you? You know, even Kyrie recently is you know,
(29:12):
all he said was the subtle racism. He he just
said subtle racism, and people are like, oh my god,
it's like a water bottle. I mean, it's not my
first time being an opponent in Boston. Uh so, you know,
I'm just looking forward to compete with my teammates and um,
you know, hopefully we can just keep it strictly basketball.
You know, there's no belligerence or any racism going on.
(29:33):
Subtle racism and people yelling ship from the crowd. He
didn't say these people are big as He was just
like the subtle racism, And people are like, how dare
you suggest that there's subtle racism? Do you feel like
that allergy to talking about Boston's history? Do you feel
like folks are less allergic now than they were because
(29:55):
you look at this piece. When we look back at
this piece, it feels so two thousand in eighteen, It
feels so pre It is a conversation with folks who
you know, it is so clearly even talking about how
detailed the piece has to be about talking about structural
racism and educating the audience on what structural racism is.
Do you feel like folks have more tools now or
(30:18):
do you feel like the allergies that the conversation now?
I know that there's been some improvement, c J. I
don't know if you knew this or not, but Bobby
Brown got his own street in Boston finally talking to
speaking of progress, find racism solved? You know, we've got
the Massachusetts fifty four monument and we got that Bobby Brown.
(30:40):
Other than Bobby Brown. Way, in what ways has the
conversation evolved? Yeah? No, I think I think you know,
y'all listen, Um, everybody loves new addition and everybody loves
Bobby Brown, so you know, so that is progress. Um,
you know. But I love your framing of this, c J. Right,
like as an allergy. I I think of it similarly
(31:03):
like this is this, this is there's something like really
deep and um systemic about it, right, and and in
so many ways, like I feel like we have to
or we should be, you know, tackling the issue like
we would, you know, a disease, right, like the disease
that it is right that said I I will you know,
(31:23):
I do want to acknowledge that last year, in particular,
we did have more people UM in the city who
were like, oh, is that what y'all experience? Like? Is
that is that what you've been talking about? You know?
(31:45):
And and and so right, So there were you know,
I think, um, you know, not an insignificant representation of
the community that that did have some lightbulbs go off, UM,
And for a period of time, we're deeply committed to
wanting to talk about racism. But even then real talk
(32:07):
like they wanted to talk about racism as a related
to policing, right, you know, once we said, look, we're
gonna do policing reform here in the city of Boston. Yeah,
and we're gonna do policing reform in Massachusetts. But understand
that this is just the beginning of the conversation. If
we're really if you're really serious about UM helping us
(32:29):
now to dismantle this racism that you just now come
to understand exists, then we need to have a conversation
about economic inequality. We need to have a conversation about
inequities and education that are significantly impacting black and brown
kids year after year after year. We have to have
a conversation about why it is that the COVID nineteen
(32:51):
pandemic disproportionately impacted black and brown people in low income people.
And it's not because we're more susceptible to the virus.
It's because of the condition ends that we are, that
that we've been forced to live in. It's because of
the neglect of our health care system as it relates
to our as it relates to our physical and mental
well being. Right, And people are like, oh, this isn't
(33:12):
just about policing, because at the moment you go, okay,
well we're gonna talk about racism. Let's break it down,
you know, let's let's let's talk about Boston's role in
the slave trade and put that in the textbook. No, yeah,
you're talking about putting it into the history book. It's
like it's almost like fixing racism is when you take
(33:34):
your car in and you only want to get a tire.
That's all. You want to fix the tire, the police tire,
and then come back a man, we ran the diagnostic man.
You've got some homeowners and equity, You've got bill reform.
You got a little bill reform acting up underneath your
catalytic converter. We got some you've got some structural racism
(33:57):
and unemployment. They didn't know. That's right. The tire just
the tire place. So after the break, I want to
talk a little bit more about some of those ties
and diagnostics that have been going on in your city
that you all have been starting to check and have
been starting to change, because in defense of your city,
we're gonna talk about some of good stuff just going
(34:17):
on over there. We're gonna talk about some of the
good things that's been making moves over there. So it's
my pleasure to be joined by the President, the most
esteemed Madam President of the Boston w CP Tunisia Sullivan.
More with her when we go beyond the scenes one
more time, and you two c j UI. This episode
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Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not
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(35:43):
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us Kids, brought to you by the US of Partment
of Healthy Human Services, Administration for Children and Families, and
the Council. Madam Sullivan, we were talking in the previous
(36:07):
break about some of the strides that Boston has made,
you know, since since the racial awakening that we had
as a country in twenty I'm so tired of people
used the dialogue that we had, and we've had a dialogue,
and so since the time, we're gonna give credit where
credit is due with the city of Boston and some
(36:30):
of the things that they've done to try and turn
the page. Bobby Brown got a street. The Celtics hid
a black head coach this year, So you got a
brother back at the Helm with the Celtics. C J.
Is that everything? I think? That's am I missing any
of them? Oh, you guys had you'll have a black
(36:51):
mayor now, yes, you know, not just a black mayor.
We got a sister. We got we got a sister.
We gotta sister. Okay. Um. So with the election of
of Joe Biden, he actually, UM, he nominated our former mayor,
Marty Wals should be Secretary of Labor. And under our
(37:14):
charter here in Boston, the city council president becomes acting
mayor UM if the mayor vacates his her office. UM.
And our city council president is a black woman and UM,
so she is now our acting mayor. And yes, Kim Janey.
That's exciting too because in the spotlight piece that we had,
(37:36):
you know, as part of this field piece, one of
the spotlight things that they were saying is Boston has
never had a black mayor, unlike all of these other places.
So that must feel great, not yet, not yet, UM,
but you know, but it's good, right. It's it's great
to UM to have her in the seat. We actually
have a mayoral election this year and the sixth leading
(38:00):
candidates at this time are all people of color. UM.
Four of them are women. UM. And so it is
highly probable that Boston will elect um A. It will
we will elect a person of color, and that we
may also elect a woman to be mayored. We've never
(38:21):
had an elected woman mayor either, so so you've had
a black mayor sneak in and now you get one
of the legitimate way as well to really cemented you know.
But but but it's reflective of you know, again on
the progress side. Since we were last together, UM, we
have the most diverse city council that we've ever had
(38:44):
in the history of the City of Boston. And so
some of the issues that the City Council UM has
tackled UM over the past couple of years have really
spoken to the ideological evolution of our city, specifically on
issues of racial justice and racial equity. UM. This year,
two of our Counselor's Council Mahia and Councilor bak UM
have introduced UM the Conversation on Reparations UH to to
(39:07):
talk about the role of Boston and the slave trade.
We know that, you know, people often talk about the
enslavement of black folks primarily in the South, although we
know here in Boston, UM that black folks were enslaved
as well. But we also understand that Boston UM played
a significant role in helping to finance UH slavery in
(39:30):
this country, right and so UM, so really pushing the
conversation on issues of racial justice and racial equity here
in Boston UM has been a positive outgrowth of a
more diverse city council. How much of in reparation we'll
be talking here last this for Boston, current Boston residents
(39:50):
of how long, like when I went to college, like
when I was at Family, you had to be living
in state for a year to be eligible for in
state tuition. So to be eligible for the ball Austin
Reparation Initiative, as I'm going to call it, well, we're
gonna we'll see, we'll see, we're gonna we're gonna dive
into the conversation. We're gonna dive into the history, um,
(40:11):
you know, and understand the impact of of of slavery
in Boston today, and then we'll see what reparations might
what the repair might look like. But you know, so
so often when we talk about reparations, people go right to, well,
what's the dollar number, what's that number? Before we get
(40:31):
to the number. I'm just saying, before we get to
the number, we really like, we've got to unpack this
thing so that we can understand where the roots are
of of of this very um significant problem staying um
on our society, so that we can then see how
it's manifesting itself today. You know, and then we can
(40:52):
talk about what it will take to repair, because that's
where reparations is. It's repair, it's helping to repair. It's
kind of like when you fight with you know, someone
you're in a relationship with, and they're like, Okay, what
do I what do I have to do? What do
I have to do to get you to stop talking
about You're like, no, we still need to talk about
what you did in order to talk about what is owed.
(41:14):
If you're gonna have a meaningful conversation about reparations, you
gotta be willing to get to the root. And those
are difficult conversations. And when you talk about a place
like Boston, you know, it's gonna require us to do
a lot of self reflection. Um that can be might
be painful, But if we want to move forward, um
(41:36):
beyond celebrating having a black mayor, um, we have to
be willing to lean into those conversations. So off of
the black mayor thing, you know, this is what I've noticed,
and I call it the empire striking back for lack
of a better phrase, All the good stuff that happened
politically on the behalf of candidates has benefit black folks.
(42:01):
It's been a lot of laws that they're trying to
start passing and sneaking under the table to make sure
that these good times don't keep rolling at mid terms.
Talk to me a little bit about what's happening in
Boston now on the heels of Kim Janey being I
guess appointed mayor. Where now if you're a city council
you can't even be mayor. Don't even think about it. Yeah,
(42:22):
so you know, we do see backlash and this is
you know, I think, um, you know, it's it's like
the civil is there such a thing as civil racism?
I don't know, we're gonna make that up right, It's
you know, it's like it's a polite racism racist but
you know we're civil about that's Boston racism. It's just like,
(42:44):
you have this diversity council doing all of these great
things that you claim or helping all of the people,
and now you're telling me none of these people can
ever aspire to do something more for the city. Well,
you know that what what's what's interesting? And so a
few weeks ago, the city Council decided that since since
the the city council president is elected by the members
(43:05):
of the city Council, and the acting mayor is only
acting mayor because she is uh, you know, the president
of the council. They voted for the first time in
our history, right, they voted now all of a sudden,
to give themselves the right to remove her from her
city Council presidency, which would thereby remove her as acting mayor.
(43:28):
You know, I find it. You know, it's so interesting
that after you know how many hundreds of years, right now, um,
now they need to make it clear to everybody that
they have the power to take her out of the office.
And you know, even if it were a legitimate position
to have, you know, those types of actions, you know,
(43:51):
as a black woman, right, those types of actions in
a moment like this absolutely give me pause. And and
I think they should give all of us pause, because
that's the stuff that those are the micro aggressions. I mean,
that's a nice way to put it, right right, right right,
you know, like like that's the stuff, like why would
(44:13):
you do that, you know, except to send a message.
You send a message if it's a law. It is
not a micro aggression, that's a law. I mean, did
they even try to hide it where they like this
was on the to do list for a hundred years.
It's not just a man. And no, they did not.
(44:33):
And in fact, you know what they have been saying
over the past few weeks is that they're just not
pleased with you know, how she's interacted with them. They
feel like she should be having more conversation with them.
She should, you know, they should know more about what
she's doing, and you know, all of these good things.
And now I have to say, you know, these are
issues and concerns that they've had with mayors in the past, right,
(44:53):
but um, but to take this step, I just you
know that one. I just said, you know what this is.
It's shameful, especially given um, the demographic makeup of the
council at this time. There is so much joy in
my heart for being able to talk to you today
(45:14):
because the depths to which we've been able to go
and explore this subject. This is why we go beyond
the scene and I joke about the title, but like,
this is why we go beyond because sitting with you
for the actual field peace, which I hope you watch.
I hope you like that. I hope that did you.
It was great. It was great, Okay, alright, what if
(45:36):
we got to this point and Tunisia is like, you know,
I've never seen it. Let me tell you something. There
are a lot of fans out there for The Daily Show.
I mean I consistently get hit up. People are like,
oh my goodness, I'm sorry you on the Daily Show.
I'm like, oh yeah, because people keep reposting the piece
every time Boston trip up keep I have a question
(45:57):
for you, Roy of You know that is one of
my favorite pieces, not just because you know a white
man outside Fenway is going it's not racist, because I
don't feel it. Talk to me about what it feels.
What is happening in your head when you move from
talking to folks who are saying racist things to you
and you are being incredibly polite but managing to find
(46:19):
the humor of of catching them showing themselves in that moment.
Talk to me about what is happening for you when
then you shift that lens and then approach talking to
um black folks. For me, the thing I learned on
the very first field piece I shot with Jordan Clapper,
when we spoke with a cop who didn't believe that
(46:41):
there was any real police harassment problems in this country.
We spoke to X Scott and I remember getting angry
like I was, legit angry, our police racist. It's good
enough for me. I'm satisfied. We're good here. OK, I'm unbelieving.
(47:01):
Are you serious? The producer Stu Mills. We stopped and
took ten He pretended that we needed to time my
battery or whatever you put me on into the Holly
sudd I'm just giving me this time to calm down.
I know it's heavy, whatever, whatever. And what I learned
in that moment is that if you get angry, it's
(47:22):
not funny anymore. We're on Comedy Central. I am a comedian.
My job is to find the joke. The viewer can
handle all of the other emotions that will come with us.
They don't need me to be the conduit for that. Also,
if I'm getting angry now you're not talking as much,
You're gonna close in or it's gonna become a confrontation.
(47:42):
Jordan Clapper, it's by far the master Like to this day,
I understand now why they paired me with him to
go out and do that piece, because if you're to
sit me there alone, it has just been a fist
fight and lawsuit and I'm fired. But when talking to
people who don't understand in the issue, if you just
let them talk, they're going. The funny is in how
(48:06):
incredulously oblivious they are. Did I form a sentence like that?
Thank you Alabama Public Schools. There's there's something though, in
talking with black people that there's no joke. How outrageous
the truth is is enough for most of us. I mean,
when we sat and talked with the brother in the diner,
(48:27):
I don't even think we used it. He was like, yeah, man,
I'm moving to Atlanta this week. I can't take it
here no more. I gotta be around black foots. And
this is a black person who was Boston through and
through and was just like, nah, I'm checking out. There's
opportunities down there. So she said, I'm gonna start my
business in Atlanta. So that was you know, to me,
c J. To answer the question, it's just more about
(48:49):
just having honest conversations about something that's so ridiculous, and
you talk to black people to get the truth, and
then you go across the Fenway to talk to people
who have no clue what you're talking about, and it's
just wow, Like It's just one of those moments, you know.
But I think that's what I This isn't even a question,
but just a comment of that's what I love about
(49:12):
watching you work. You know, like field producers, we just
get to watch the correspondence running full speed. And what
I what I love about watching you work is you
fight for these human centers and human moments to the piece.
It's not just like wow, they said some wild ship.
It's like, now, let's go over to the Silver Slipper
restaurant in Roxbury and and actually here a moment of
(49:33):
a man saying, you know, even if it can't make
the final piece of like I am this day figuring
out how to move to Atlanta because I cannot take
it here. And I think you fight for this human
center for all of those pieces. Well, I try my
best and speaking and fighting for humans. Madam Sullivan, We
thank you immensely for all the work that you're doing
(49:55):
in Boston. I wish that we you know, we need,
we need another podcast that goes beyond beyond the scenes.
You go double beyond and break down even everything else
that we didn't even get to talk about today. Thank
you so much for your work where can people support
the Boston a c P Chapter. Well, we're online and
(50:16):
a a CP Boston dot com. You can also find
us on social media. All right, Well, thank you so much.
And c J. You did something big this year, brother,
you made a whole last documentary about Confederate monuments and
people who don't want them to be taken down. Just
(50:36):
to be just to be clear, it's not an ASK documentary.
It is a whole as documentary about Okay, So if
you are coming for an ASK documentary, that's another project
I'm working on. This is about Confederate monuments and the
question Boston is asking how how racist Boston? It is
asking that of you know, the white South and of
the whole country. You can find it right now on
PBS for free. It's called The Neutral Ground. Um and
(51:00):
my executive producer, you know, he's he's okay, he's fine.
You have heard rumors about that guy, J. Well, look,
that's all the time we have for behind the scenes today.
Hope that you had a good time going beyond the
scenes with us. We appreciate you so much for listening
on the behalf of everybody at the Daily Show. Thank
(51:22):
you and listen to the Daily show Beyond the Scenes
on Apple Podcast, the I Heart Radio app or wherever
you get your podcast worst or shirt. Yeah, it's just
like the ocean. You're sure, Worcestershire. That's it. I want
(51:44):
to go even further beyond the scenes. Check out the
video version of Beyond the Scenes on the Daily Shows
YouTube page. Ford Motor Company is committed to moving forward
together with new all of vehicles that offer an efficient
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