March 24, 2023 • 18 mins
Welcome to Season 2 of Amazing Wildlife! Hosts Rick and Marco explore the fascinating and dynamic insects of Butterfly Jungle, open through May 14 at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Lynn Fennema, senior wildlife care specialist in entomology at the San Diego Zoo, gives insight into the transformation of a caterpillar to a butterfly—including the difference between a chrysalis and a cocoon, the different types of caterpillars, and what really happens inside the chrysalis before a butterfly emerges!
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz and I'm Marco went. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of iHeartRadio in San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance,
an international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees the San Diego
Zoo and Safari part We're kicking off a new season
(00:25):
of Amazing Wildlife and I want to take a moment
to introduce my new co host. You may recognize his
voice from last season's Axelttle episode, where he helped us
learn more about the origin and culture around the word Axelottle. Everyone,
meet Marco went, Fellow Wildlife Ambassador of the San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance. It's good to have you here, Marco
Buenos World, and thanks Rick. I am super pumped to
(00:48):
be co hosting Amazing Wildlife with you. I got a
feeling we're gonna have a lot of fun. I'm certain
we're gonna have a good time too. Now, of course,
I know you very well, we have worked together for years.
But I'd love for you to take a moment to
let our audience know a little more about you. Yeah,
of course you know. I grew up at the San
Diego Zoo Safari Park. I've been an animal trainer at
our beautiful bird shows, moved into the bird department as
(01:11):
a wildlife care specialist working with incredible wildlife like a
Southern cassuary, and now I get to be a wildlife ambassador,
just like you right sharing these wonderful stories. Marco. You
mentioned your time as a wildlife care specialists working with
birds at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, and I
know that also includes helping with Butterfly Jungle, which just
happens to be happening right now at the release of
(01:31):
this episode and continues through May fourteenth. Knowing it's happening
now and knowing I miss certain aspects of actually working
directly with the animals, I was wondering, is there anything
you miss about Butterfly Jungle? Oh? You know what, I
have to say, My top two favorite memories. One the ecosystem.
I love rainforest habits at so going into the puper
room and just feel what it's like to be in
a rainforest. But my ultimate favorite memory is watching these
(01:54):
butterflies when they just came out of that cocoon and
they open up those wings as a butterfly and do
their first lights into hidden jungle. It's awesome. And know
what you mean. I've been there a couple of times
for the release. The wildlife care specialist brings the butterflies
out into the rainforests basically the open aviary, and it
really does bring out that childhood at Yeah, I'm also
continually fascinated when I see the butterflies emerging from the chrysalis.
(02:18):
I'll agreed, you know, I'm always so curious what's going
on in there. I know, right it's crazy. And honestly,
when I see that movement right before they're about to emerge,
that's super fascinating. Whether they're breaking out of that cocoon
or the chrysalis, you know, whatever we want to call it. Right,
So this is the thing. Is I wonder too what
exactly happens inside the crystalis or cocoon and is it
chrysalis or cocoon? Which is its interchangeable either. Well, good
(02:41):
news is we do work at the San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Lions and we happen to have access to people
who can probably answer both these questions for us I
am Lynn Phenema, and I am the senior Wildlife care
Specialist in Insects at the San Diego Zoo. A cocoon
is going to be something that usually a moth me.
It's usually made out of silk. Sometimes it's pieces of
(03:03):
leaves or whatever from their surroundings. It's something that they
make to surround themselves with. A chrysalis is the actual
animal itself. So when you're looking at a chrysalis, like
say a monarch chrysalis, you're actually looking at the actual
animal itself. There's a lot going on inside of there,
but that's its actual body, as opposed to cocoon, you're
(03:24):
looking at a covering one sec rick. Before we get
into what happens in the chrysalis, I was kind of
hoping to talk about the caterpillar stage a little bit
because at Butterfly Jungle we receive the chrysalis and hang
them in the paper room. But I know more happens
before it becomes a chrysalis. Ah, good idea. Lynn. Can
you start from the beginning of the caterpillar's life for us? Yeah, So,
(03:47):
once it hatches from an a, it's just gonna eat
and eat any basically That's what capillar's job is, right,
is just their whole life is just eating and growing bigger.
That's all they do. It's a great life. And as
they grow older and they grow bigger, they have to
shed their exoskeleton in order to grow. For an insect,
(04:08):
their exoskeleton is kind of like clothes we wear almost
as we get bigger, our clothes don't get bigger. We
have to get new clothes, right as we get bigger
and older. Same thing with them. As they grow, they
have to shed that exoskeleton and there's a brand new,
bigger one underneath, and so they're going to molt. It
varies for caterpillars. For something like a monarch, it's usually
(04:29):
like four or five times they're going to molten get
significantly bigger each time. About four or five molts will
do that. Okay, now I have a question. Did she
say exoskeleton for a caterpillar, Because when I think of
a caterpillar, I think well, squishy, honestly, And when I
think of exoskeleton, I think of something hard, like the
outer side of a beetle or something like that. Yeah,
(04:50):
but I don't think caterpillars have skeletons. Or a bone
structure inside. So I guess exoskeleton makes sense. It's not
as hard it is like a beetle exoskeleton is still there,
but it's thinner and just not as hard as a
beetle's exoskeleton, but they still have one. It's going to
be most noticeable on what we call the head capsule.
(05:11):
The part that is on the head is very noticeable
when they mold. So when they shed that you usually
just see the head capsule come off and then a
little bit of the exoskeleton skin, but it's a very
thin and papery, so it's still there, is just thinner.
Oh wow, well that makes sense. But if the caterpillar
eats and grows and sheds and eats and grows and sheds,
(05:33):
how does it know when it's time to become a chrysalist.
Does it need to eat a certain amount of food
or is it after so many days after hatching from
an egg, or is it something else. There's two hormones
that are going to control how a caterpillar grows and
what it's going to turn into. Actizone and there's juvenile hormone,
(05:55):
and those are two really really important things for an insect.
To grow and determines what they turn into. So ecdysome,
that hormone controls when it's gonna mold. When those levels,
those hormone levels start to rise in the caterpillar, that
tells it, okay, it's time for me to molt. Right,
If there's juvenile hormone, you can guess by the name juvenile.
(06:16):
If there's also juvenile hormone present, that's going to tell
the caterpillar, I'm gonna mold, and my next mold, I'm
still going to be a caterpillar. As the caterpillar naturally
gets older, those juvenile hormones start to drop, so you
still have the ecdysone, right, that's telling it you need
to change. But then when the juvenile hormone levels drop
(06:38):
below a certain point, no more juvenile hormone, that tells
it now it's time. Now I need to turn into
the pupil. And that's just the two main ones. There's
a hole you could go down, a whole rabbit hole
of all the physiology and the hormones involved in the
different secretions and glands. Like I said, it's a lot
more complicated. You can go as far into as you want.
They've got a different lands. They have a brain that
(07:01):
secretes some of these hormones, is you know, not like
a mini version of our brain, but they still have
one and all these organs that all work together to
make this happen. But the ectizone and the juvenile hormone,
those are the two big ones that control molting. That
is so awesome. I mean, it makes sense now that
I hear it. Besides, we know hormones control in different
(07:22):
stages of development in mammals, birds, and reptiles, so why
not invertebrates too. Seriously, that is so fascinating. I mean, yeah,
it makes sense, but wow, I do have a follow
up question though, Lynn you mentioned it turns into a pupa.
What does that mean? What does a pupa? It's the
life stage. So for example, there's the egg that starts
(07:44):
off with the larvae. Is the caterpillar like the baby phase,
the juvenile phase. The pupa then is that middle transition
phase and it pupates. The caterpillar pupates, so the pupa
is that niddle stage and then you have the adult butterfly,
moth what have you. Ah, that makes sense now, thanks
(08:06):
for defining that for us. Okay, Marco. It sounds like
we have an understanding of what happens up to the
point of the caterpillar becoming a crysalis or the pupa stage.
I want to know one more thing before we answer
the original question of what happens in the crysalis. Oh man,
now I'm curious about what you're curious about. Okay, okay.
When the caterpillars hormones say you're done being a caterpillar
(08:29):
and now it's time to mold into a crystalis as
far as I understand it. Caterpillars will try to find
the underside of a branch or the underside of a
leaf to hang from. What is it that they used
to anchor themselves when they hang like that? It varies
depending on what the caterpillar is, what species it is.
The one you're probably going to be familiar with is
the monarch caterpillars. They actually have hooks at the very
(08:52):
end of their body, the very tip of their body,
and they're actually going to make a silk pad stick
that onto something like the side of a piece of
water or whatever, and then they dig their hooks into
that little piece of silk, and that's what they're going
to hate on too. So it's actually the way the
monarchs do it is rather precarious because they're literally hating
(09:13):
just by these hooks. They're hanging upside down, you know,
in that classic J shape. They're just hating from that
one point. So you know, you get a good hard breezer,
they shake a little bit and they could fall. There
are some other caterpillars that are a little more sturdy.
Some of them will actually make like a little hammock
for themselves to actually pup it in. Some of them
(09:33):
won't even do that. Some of them just go straight
to the ground under the ground or just dropping some leaves,
which is kind of a lazy way to do it,
but you know, I'm not gonna fall, so that's something.
So they can use hooks or silk to hate themselves
from different things. It's wild to think that a monarch
caterpillar has this ability to make silk all along, but
(09:54):
it only uses it once in its whole life, and
for such an important job too. I know right age
where other caterpillars species will like make a silk hammock,
or a moth species will spin a cocoon and hide
some leaf litter monarch caterpillars are like, I've got this
one shot to do this right. My whole future life
depends on it. Okay, I think now though, marcolet's try
to say we've answered all the questions we've unearthed by
(10:15):
trying to answer this one question. Let's finally get to
the whole reason we ask Lynn to join us. Oh
is it time to ask? I think it is? Okay, Lynn,
we want to know, Marco. Wait, what before you ask?
I want to know from you, before we had a
chance to talk to Lynn, and before you worked a
butterfly jungle to Safari Park, what did you think happened
inside the crysalis? You know, honestly, I thought it was
(10:37):
some combination of like Ninja turtles when their original turtles
going to the o, some kind of mutation, or maybe
like a werewolf, something along those lines. A werewolf, I know,
I know. Okay, Well, yeah, I have to bid. Honestly,
I have to say I had no idea until my
own curiosity got to better me a couple of years
ago and I looked it up. But prior to knowing
for sure, I assumed the caterpillar's body just shrunk down
(10:58):
to the sides of a butterfly's body, and then it
grew long legs and wings, and I mean it made
sense of my head anyhow. Okay, Okay, I think it's
time to find out the real answer. Yeah, go for it,
ask her. Okay, Lynn, Rick and I have shared what
we think happens inside the crysalis, but now we need
to hear what actually happens when this plant eating larva
(11:19):
called the caterpillar makes itself into a crysalis and then
comes out this magical flying creature that lives off of
the nectar of flowers. This is so cool. It just
it really blew my mind when I first learned about this.
So what actually is happening is it's not like we said,
you know, it's not just growing wings or anything like that.
The whole animal itself, that caterpillar inside of that crystallis
(11:43):
actually breaks down into essentially caterpillar soup. It turns into goo. Essentially.
There are enzymes that go to work and actually break
down and digest all of the caterpillar into different parts.
Now there's a few parts like the breathing tubes and
things that will remain the same so that the animal
can keep on living. But all the different parts that
(12:05):
you saw before are actually going to break down and
just turn into soup. If you were to break open
a chrysalis early, you would just get goop. But that
is the animal. So how does it go from that
to a butterfly? Incredible? Right, There's clumps of cells inside
of the caterpillar that have always been there. They're called
imaginal discs. The caterpillar is actually born with this, even
(12:28):
when it's just an egg, it always had these imaginal
discs inside of itself and they remain dormant until the
time comes. So when it goes into the pupy and
the digestive enzymes have breaken it down, then those imaginal
discs start up. They start multiplying and growing like crazy.
(12:49):
And it's those imaginal discs that are going to multiply
and turn that soup into all the new different body
parts that are going to make up the butter fly.
There's an imaginal discs for legs, there's a group for wings,
a group for the head, that sort of thing. So
those clumps of cells that were dormant inside this animal
the whole time are finally going to turn on and
(13:13):
turn that whole mess that was a caterpillar into something
completely new? WHOA that is so rad Seriously, everything turns
to caterpillar soup. Can you imagine what once was a
foot cell and what once was a mouth cell, or
all just floating around, bumping into each other, just waiting
to be reconstructed into something new. I mean, essentially everything
(13:35):
that was once a caterpillar gets broken down and recycled
into a butterfly. But that makes me wonder if mostly
everything gets turned into caterpillar soup and then rebuilt as
a butterfly, are they just coming out as a butterfly
like a whole new being, like this is day one
for them in their mind, or do they have any
memory or knowledge of life as a caterpillar. There is
(13:56):
one study where they actually taught caterpillars to avoid certain smells.
So when the caterpillar these certain smells were exposed to it,
they learned to move away from it. They were taught
not to like it. You take that caterpillar turns into
a butterfly, That butterfly still flies away from that smell
(14:20):
that it didn't like when it was a caterpillar. So
there's some part that they do still remember from being
a caterpillar. They do learn, and there's something about them
that still stays. I don't know how that happens, honestly,
now they can retain that memory, but they do, and
they remember that bad smell that they don't like, and
they try to get away from it. All right, mind blowing.
(14:41):
I have so many more questions about what a butterfly
remembers and doesn't remember, about the process of being a
caterpillar and then becoming a crysalis filled with caterpillar soup
and then hatching out. I mean, for instance, have you
ever suddenly had a craving for some comfort food from
your childhood and they just sat down and enjoyed it.
I mean, does a butterfly I ever get a craving
(15:01):
to have some leaves that used to munch on when
it was a caterpillar? I don't know, but I want
to know. Yeah, I gotta admit I was a fan before,
but I'm even more into butterflies now. I mean I
knew some of this already, but the memory, the imaginal cells,
kid bothery, I am right there with you, Marco. It
is so cool and as amazing as it is. I
think my favorite part was hearing how passionate and excited
(15:23):
Lynd was to share what she knows about the animals
she cares for. Honestly, I'm kind of curious, Lynn, where
does this love and passion for invertebrates come from? Oh
my gosh. I mean, you know, like a lot of
people go through that bug phase when they're a little kid,
where like you're coming home with caterpillars in your pockets
and that sort of thing. Like I never grew out
of that. I still love exploring and finding bugs and
(15:43):
just looking at them. I think they are the closest
things that we can get to magical creatures out there.
Just from like I was telling you, with just how
complicated pupating is and things like that. I just I
think they're so fascinating and I just never have and
never will grow out of that mystified phase of looking
at these guys. Thank you, Lynn for completely and forever
(16:06):
changing how we look at the magic that is a butterfly. Yes,
thank you Lynn, and everyone in the entomology department at
the San Diego Zoo, and of course everyone in the
bird department at the Safari Park who are all working
so hard to make Butterfly Jungle such a magical experience.
Oh and I also want to say thank you to
the horticulture department too, Marco, because they bring in an
(16:26):
awful lot of flowering plants for all of those butterflies
to enjoy. And I think that kind of falls under
the radar sometimes because we're so distracted by the butterflies.
And that leads me to my next thought. Really, it's
fair to remind everyone that butterflies and many other invertebrates. Yes,
they are beautiful and borderline magical, but they play an
important role in the environment, in the ecosystems that we
all rely on. Pollination powers of the butterfly or the
(16:47):
ability to break down natural materials like maybe a larvae
or caterpillar could all very important for the plants and
beneficial to all of us. All right, so what do
you think, Marco? Was this a good way to kick
off season two? Oh? Absolutely? I mean we got to
talk about butterflies, Safari Park, San Diego Zoo one team
win dreams. I thought it was perfect. And also caterpillar
soup dint forday about the soup. Thanks for listening to everyone,
(17:10):
We help you learn something new about caterpillars and butterflies.
Be sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode,
in which we let our curiosity lead us to some
surprising information about one of Africa's big cats. Marco Went
and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For more information
(17:30):
about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park,
go to SVZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production
of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producer is Nikkia Swinton and our
sound designer and editor is Sierra Spreen. For more shows
from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz and I'm Marco went. Welcome to
Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from
around the world and uncover fascinating animal facts. This podcast
is a production of iHeartRadio in San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance,
an international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees the San Diego
Zoo and Safari part We're kicking off a new season
(00:25):
of Amazing Wildlife and I want to take a moment
to introduce my new co host. You may recognize his
voice from last season's Axelttle episode, where he helped us
learn more about the origin and culture around the word Axelottle. Everyone,
meet Marco went, Fellow Wildlife Ambassador of the San Diego
Zoo Wildlife Alliance. It's good to have you here, Marco
Buenos World, and thanks Rick. I am super pumped to
(00:48):
be co hosting Amazing Wildlife with you. I got a
feeling we're gonna have a lot of fun. I'm certain
we're gonna have a good time too. Now, of course,
I know you very well, we have worked together for years.
But I'd love for you to take a moment to
let our audience know a little more about you. Yeah,
of course you know. I grew up at the San
Diego Zoo Safari Park. I've been an animal trainer at
our beautiful bird shows, moved into the bird department as
(01:11):
a wildlife care specialist working with incredible wildlife like a
Southern cassuary, and now I get to be a wildlife ambassador,
just like you right sharing these wonderful stories. Marco. You
mentioned your time as a wildlife care specialists working with
birds at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, and I
know that also includes helping with Butterfly Jungle, which just
happens to be happening right now at the release of
(01:31):
this episode and continues through May fourteenth. Knowing it's happening
now and knowing I miss certain aspects of actually working
directly with the animals, I was wondering, is there anything
you miss about Butterfly Jungle? Oh? You know what, I
have to say, My top two favorite memories. One the ecosystem.
I love rainforest habits at so going into the puper
room and just feel what it's like to be in
a rainforest. But my ultimate favorite memory is watching these
(01:54):
butterflies when they just came out of that cocoon and
they open up those wings as a butterfly and do
their first lights into hidden jungle. It's awesome. And know
what you mean. I've been there a couple of times
for the release. The wildlife care specialist brings the butterflies
out into the rainforests basically the open aviary, and it
really does bring out that childhood at Yeah, I'm also
continually fascinated when I see the butterflies emerging from the chrysalis.
(02:18):
I'll agreed, you know, I'm always so curious what's going
on in there. I know, right it's crazy. And honestly,
when I see that movement right before they're about to emerge,
that's super fascinating. Whether they're breaking out of that cocoon
or the chrysalis, you know, whatever we want to call it. Right,
So this is the thing. Is I wonder too what
exactly happens inside the crystalis or cocoon and is it
chrysalis or cocoon? Which is its interchangeable either. Well, good
(02:41):
news is we do work at the San Diego Zoo
Wildlife Lions and we happen to have access to people
who can probably answer both these questions for us I
am Lynn Phenema, and I am the senior Wildlife care
Specialist in Insects at the San Diego Zoo. A cocoon
is going to be something that usually a moth me.
It's usually made out of silk. Sometimes it's pieces of
(03:03):
leaves or whatever from their surroundings. It's something that they
make to surround themselves with. A chrysalis is the actual
animal itself. So when you're looking at a chrysalis, like
say a monarch chrysalis, you're actually looking at the actual
animal itself. There's a lot going on inside of there,
but that's its actual body, as opposed to cocoon, you're
(03:24):
looking at a covering one sec rick. Before we get
into what happens in the chrysalis, I was kind of
hoping to talk about the caterpillar stage a little bit
because at Butterfly Jungle we receive the chrysalis and hang
them in the paper room. But I know more happens
before it becomes a chrysalis. Ah, good idea. Lynn. Can
you start from the beginning of the caterpillar's life for us? Yeah, So,
(03:47):
once it hatches from an a, it's just gonna eat
and eat any basically That's what capillar's job is, right,
is just their whole life is just eating and growing bigger.
That's all they do. It's a great life. And as
they grow older and they grow bigger, they have to
shed their exoskeleton in order to grow. For an insect,
(04:08):
their exoskeleton is kind of like clothes we wear almost
as we get bigger, our clothes don't get bigger. We
have to get new clothes, right as we get bigger
and older. Same thing with them. As they grow, they
have to shed that exoskeleton and there's a brand new,
bigger one underneath, and so they're going to molt. It
varies for caterpillars. For something like a monarch, it's usually
(04:29):
like four or five times they're going to molten get
significantly bigger each time. About four or five molts will
do that. Okay, now I have a question. Did she
say exoskeleton for a caterpillar, Because when I think of
a caterpillar, I think well, squishy, honestly, And when I
think of exoskeleton, I think of something hard, like the
outer side of a beetle or something like that. Yeah,
(04:50):
but I don't think caterpillars have skeletons. Or a bone
structure inside. So I guess exoskeleton makes sense. It's not
as hard it is like a beetle exoskeleton is still there,
but it's thinner and just not as hard as a
beetle's exoskeleton, but they still have one. It's going to
be most noticeable on what we call the head capsule.
(05:11):
The part that is on the head is very noticeable
when they mold. So when they shed that you usually
just see the head capsule come off and then a
little bit of the exoskeleton skin, but it's a very
thin and papery, so it's still there, is just thinner.
Oh wow, well that makes sense. But if the caterpillar
eats and grows and sheds and eats and grows and sheds,
(05:33):
how does it know when it's time to become a chrysalist.
Does it need to eat a certain amount of food
or is it after so many days after hatching from
an egg, or is it something else. There's two hormones
that are going to control how a caterpillar grows and
what it's going to turn into. Actizone and there's juvenile hormone,
(05:55):
and those are two really really important things for an insect.
To grow and determines what they turn into. So ecdysome,
that hormone controls when it's gonna mold. When those levels,
those hormone levels start to rise in the caterpillar, that
tells it, okay, it's time for me to molt. Right,
If there's juvenile hormone, you can guess by the name juvenile.
(06:16):
If there's also juvenile hormone present, that's going to tell
the caterpillar, I'm gonna mold, and my next mold, I'm
still going to be a caterpillar. As the caterpillar naturally
gets older, those juvenile hormones start to drop, so you
still have the ecdysone, right, that's telling it you need
to change. But then when the juvenile hormone levels drop
(06:38):
below a certain point, no more juvenile hormone, that tells
it now it's time. Now I need to turn into
the pupil. And that's just the two main ones. There's
a hole you could go down, a whole rabbit hole
of all the physiology and the hormones involved in the
different secretions and glands. Like I said, it's a lot
more complicated. You can go as far into as you want.
They've got a different lands. They have a brain that
(07:01):
secretes some of these hormones, is you know, not like
a mini version of our brain, but they still have
one and all these organs that all work together to
make this happen. But the ectizone and the juvenile hormone,
those are the two big ones that control molting. That
is so awesome. I mean, it makes sense now that
I hear it. Besides, we know hormones control in different
(07:22):
stages of development in mammals, birds, and reptiles, so why
not invertebrates too. Seriously, that is so fascinating. I mean, yeah,
it makes sense, but wow, I do have a follow
up question though, Lynn you mentioned it turns into a pupa.
What does that mean? What does a pupa? It's the
life stage. So for example, there's the egg that starts
(07:44):
off with the larvae. Is the caterpillar like the baby phase,
the juvenile phase. The pupa then is that middle transition
phase and it pupates. The caterpillar pupates, so the pupa
is that niddle stage and then you have the adult butterfly,
moth what have you. Ah, that makes sense now, thanks
(08:06):
for defining that for us. Okay, Marco. It sounds like
we have an understanding of what happens up to the
point of the caterpillar becoming a crysalis or the pupa stage.
I want to know one more thing before we answer
the original question of what happens in the crysalis. Oh man,
now I'm curious about what you're curious about. Okay, okay.
When the caterpillars hormones say you're done being a caterpillar
(08:29):
and now it's time to mold into a crystalis as
far as I understand it. Caterpillars will try to find
the underside of a branch or the underside of a
leaf to hang from. What is it that they used
to anchor themselves when they hang like that? It varies
depending on what the caterpillar is, what species it is.
The one you're probably going to be familiar with is
the monarch caterpillars. They actually have hooks at the very
(08:52):
end of their body, the very tip of their body,
and they're actually going to make a silk pad stick
that onto something like the side of a piece of
water or whatever, and then they dig their hooks into
that little piece of silk, and that's what they're going
to hate on too. So it's actually the way the
monarchs do it is rather precarious because they're literally hating
(09:13):
just by these hooks. They're hanging upside down, you know,
in that classic J shape. They're just hating from that
one point. So you know, you get a good hard breezer,
they shake a little bit and they could fall. There
are some other caterpillars that are a little more sturdy.
Some of them will actually make like a little hammock
for themselves to actually pup it in. Some of them
(09:33):
won't even do that. Some of them just go straight
to the ground under the ground or just dropping some leaves,
which is kind of a lazy way to do it,
but you know, I'm not gonna fall, so that's something.
So they can use hooks or silk to hate themselves
from different things. It's wild to think that a monarch
caterpillar has this ability to make silk all along, but
(09:54):
it only uses it once in its whole life, and
for such an important job too. I know right age
where other caterpillars species will like make a silk hammock,
or a moth species will spin a cocoon and hide
some leaf litter monarch caterpillars are like, I've got this
one shot to do this right. My whole future life
depends on it. Okay, I think now though, marcolet's try
to say we've answered all the questions we've unearthed by
(10:15):
trying to answer this one question. Let's finally get to
the whole reason we ask Lynn to join us. Oh
is it time to ask? I think it is? Okay, Lynn,
we want to know, Marco. Wait, what before you ask?
I want to know from you, before we had a
chance to talk to Lynn, and before you worked a
butterfly jungle to Safari Park, what did you think happened
inside the crysalis? You know, honestly, I thought it was
(10:37):
some combination of like Ninja turtles when their original turtles
going to the o, some kind of mutation, or maybe
like a werewolf, something along those lines. A werewolf, I know,
I know. Okay, Well, yeah, I have to bid. Honestly,
I have to say I had no idea until my
own curiosity got to better me a couple of years
ago and I looked it up. But prior to knowing
for sure, I assumed the caterpillar's body just shrunk down
(10:58):
to the sides of a butterfly's body, and then it
grew long legs and wings, and I mean it made
sense of my head anyhow. Okay, Okay, I think it's
time to find out the real answer. Yeah, go for it,
ask her. Okay, Lynn, Rick and I have shared what
we think happens inside the crysalis, but now we need
to hear what actually happens when this plant eating larva
(11:19):
called the caterpillar makes itself into a crysalis and then
comes out this magical flying creature that lives off of
the nectar of flowers. This is so cool. It just
it really blew my mind when I first learned about this.
So what actually is happening is it's not like we said,
you know, it's not just growing wings or anything like that.
The whole animal itself, that caterpillar inside of that crystallis
(11:43):
actually breaks down into essentially caterpillar soup. It turns into goo. Essentially.
There are enzymes that go to work and actually break
down and digest all of the caterpillar into different parts.
Now there's a few parts like the breathing tubes and
things that will remain the same so that the animal
can keep on living. But all the different parts that
(12:05):
you saw before are actually going to break down and
just turn into soup. If you were to break open
a chrysalis early, you would just get goop. But that
is the animal. So how does it go from that
to a butterfly? Incredible? Right, There's clumps of cells inside
of the caterpillar that have always been there. They're called
imaginal discs. The caterpillar is actually born with this, even
(12:28):
when it's just an egg, it always had these imaginal
discs inside of itself and they remain dormant until the
time comes. So when it goes into the pupy and
the digestive enzymes have breaken it down, then those imaginal
discs start up. They start multiplying and growing like crazy.
(12:49):
And it's those imaginal discs that are going to multiply
and turn that soup into all the new different body
parts that are going to make up the butter fly.
There's an imaginal discs for legs, there's a group for wings,
a group for the head, that sort of thing. So
those clumps of cells that were dormant inside this animal
the whole time are finally going to turn on and
(13:13):
turn that whole mess that was a caterpillar into something
completely new? WHOA that is so rad Seriously, everything turns
to caterpillar soup. Can you imagine what once was a
foot cell and what once was a mouth cell, or
all just floating around, bumping into each other, just waiting
to be reconstructed into something new. I mean, essentially everything
(13:35):
that was once a caterpillar gets broken down and recycled
into a butterfly. But that makes me wonder if mostly
everything gets turned into caterpillar soup and then rebuilt as
a butterfly, are they just coming out as a butterfly
like a whole new being, like this is day one
for them in their mind, or do they have any
memory or knowledge of life as a caterpillar. There is
(13:56):
one study where they actually taught caterpillars to avoid certain smells.
So when the caterpillar these certain smells were exposed to it,
they learned to move away from it. They were taught
not to like it. You take that caterpillar turns into
a butterfly, That butterfly still flies away from that smell
(14:20):
that it didn't like when it was a caterpillar. So
there's some part that they do still remember from being
a caterpillar. They do learn, and there's something about them
that still stays. I don't know how that happens, honestly,
now they can retain that memory, but they do, and
they remember that bad smell that they don't like, and
they try to get away from it. All right, mind blowing.
(14:41):
I have so many more questions about what a butterfly
remembers and doesn't remember, about the process of being a
caterpillar and then becoming a crysalis filled with caterpillar soup
and then hatching out. I mean, for instance, have you
ever suddenly had a craving for some comfort food from
your childhood and they just sat down and enjoyed it.
I mean, does a butterfly I ever get a craving
(15:01):
to have some leaves that used to munch on when
it was a caterpillar? I don't know, but I want
to know. Yeah, I gotta admit I was a fan before,
but I'm even more into butterflies now. I mean I
knew some of this already, but the memory, the imaginal cells,
kid bothery, I am right there with you, Marco. It
is so cool and as amazing as it is. I
think my favorite part was hearing how passionate and excited
(15:23):
Lynd was to share what she knows about the animals
she cares for. Honestly, I'm kind of curious, Lynn, where
does this love and passion for invertebrates come from? Oh
my gosh. I mean, you know, like a lot of
people go through that bug phase when they're a little kid,
where like you're coming home with caterpillars in your pockets
and that sort of thing. Like I never grew out
of that. I still love exploring and finding bugs and
(15:43):
just looking at them. I think they are the closest
things that we can get to magical creatures out there.
Just from like I was telling you, with just how
complicated pupating is and things like that. I just I
think they're so fascinating and I just never have and
never will grow out of that mystified phase of looking
at these guys. Thank you, Lynn for completely and forever
(16:06):
changing how we look at the magic that is a butterfly. Yes,
thank you Lynn, and everyone in the entomology department at
the San Diego Zoo, and of course everyone in the
bird department at the Safari Park who are all working
so hard to make Butterfly Jungle such a magical experience.
Oh and I also want to say thank you to
the horticulture department too, Marco, because they bring in an
(16:26):
awful lot of flowering plants for all of those butterflies
to enjoy. And I think that kind of falls under
the radar sometimes because we're so distracted by the butterflies.
And that leads me to my next thought. Really, it's
fair to remind everyone that butterflies and many other invertebrates. Yes,
they are beautiful and borderline magical, but they play an
important role in the environment, in the ecosystems that we
all rely on. Pollination powers of the butterfly or the
(16:47):
ability to break down natural materials like maybe a larvae
or caterpillar could all very important for the plants and
beneficial to all of us. All right, so what do
you think, Marco? Was this a good way to kick
off season two? Oh? Absolutely? I mean we got to
talk about butterflies, Safari Park, San Diego Zoo one team
win dreams. I thought it was perfect. And also caterpillar
soup dint forday about the soup. Thanks for listening to everyone,
(17:10):
We help you learn something new about caterpillars and butterflies.
Be sure to subscribe and tune into our next episode,
in which we let our curiosity lead us to some
surprising information about one of Africa's big cats. Marco Went
and I'm Rich Schwartz. Thanks for listening. For more information
(17:30):
about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park,
go to SVZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production
of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producer is Nikkia Swinton and our
sound designer and editor is Sierra Spreen. For more shows
from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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