Freakonomics Radio

For the 20th anniversary of Freakonomics, Debbie Millman of Design Matters interviews Stephen Dubner about his upbringing, his writing career, and why it's important to “swing your swing.” Plus: a sneak peek at a new project.

• SOURCES:
  • Debbie Millman, writer and host of Design Matters with Debbie Millman.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Stephen J. Dubner," by Design Matters with Debbie Millman (2025).
  • Turbulent Souls: A Catholic ...

Arthur Brooks, an economist and former head of the American Enterprise Institute, believes that there is only one remedy for our political polarization: love. In this 2021 episode, we ask if Brooks is a fool for thinking this — and if perhaps you are his kind of fool?

• SOURCES:
  • Arthur Brooks, professor of public and nonprofit leadership at Harvard University.

• RESOURCES:
  • “Vital Statistics on Congress,” by Moll...

Soccer leagues around the world use a promotion-and-relegation system to reward the best teams and punish the worst. We ask whether American sports fans would enjoy a similar system. (Part two of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
  • Stefan Szymanski, professor of sport management at the University of Michigan.
  • Victor Matheson, professor of economics at the College of the Hol...

The N.F.L. is a powerful cartel with imperial desires. College football is about to undergo a financial reckoning. So maybe they should team up? (Part one of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • DeMaurice Smith, former executive director of the National Football League Players Association.
  • Domonique Foxworth, sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
  • Jeffrey Kessler, partner at the law firm of Winston & Strawn.
  • Oliver Luck, sports execu...

In this episode we first published in 2021, the political scientist Yuen Yuen Ang argues that different forms of government create different styles of corruption — and that the U.S. and China have more in common than we’d like to admit.

• SOURCES:
  • Yuen Yuen Ang, professor of political science at Johns Hopkins University.

• RESOURCES:
  • "China’s Anti-Graft Show Is Educational, With Unintended Lessons," by Li Yuan (...

In his new book “Breakneck,” Dan Wang argues that the U.S. has a lot to learn from China. He also says that “no two peoples are more alike.” We have questions.

• SOURCES:
  • Dan Wang, research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, author of Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future.

• RESOURCES:
  • Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, by Dan Wang (2025).
  • The Anaconda in the Chandeli...

A lot of jobs in the modern economy don’t pay a living wage, and some of those jobs may be wiped out by new technologies. So what’s to be done? We revisit an episode from 2016 for a potential solution.

• SOURCES:
  • Erik Brynjolfsson, professor of economics at Stanford University.
  • Evelyn Forget, professor of economics and community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
  • Sam Altman, C.E.O. of OpenAI.
  • Robert Gordon, professor ...

What does it take to “play 3D chess at 250 miles an hour”? And how far will $12.5 billion of “Big, Beautiful” funding go toward modernizing the F.A.A.? (Part two of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • David Strayer, professor of cognition and neural science at the University of Utah.
  • Dorothy Robyn, senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
  • Ed Bastian, C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
  • Ed Bolen, president and C.E.O. of the National Business Aviation Associati...

Flying in the U.S. is still exceptionally safe, but the system relies on outdated tech and is under tremendous strain. Six experts tell us how it got this way and how it can (maybe) be fixed. (Part one of a two-part series.)

• SOURCES:
  • Dorothy Robyn, senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
  • Ed Bastian, C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
  • John Strong, professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.
  • Kenneth Levin, retired air...

Patrick Deneen, a political philosopher at Notre Dame, says yes. He was a Democrat for years, and has now come to be seen as an “ideological guru” of the Trump administration. But that only tells half the story ...

• SOURCES:
  • Patrick Deneen, professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The Ideological Gurus Battling for the Soul of Trump World," by Joshua Chaffin and Zusha Elinso...

Bjørn Andersen has killed hundreds of minke whales. He tells us how he does it, why he does it, and what he thinks would happen if whale-hunting ever stopped. (This bonus episode is a follow-up to our series “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

• SOURCES:
  • Bjørn Andersen, Norwegian whaler.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Digestive physiology of minke whales," by S.D. Mathiesen, T.H. Aagnes, W. Sørmo, E.S. Nordøy, A.S. Blix,...

In the final episode of our whale series, we learn about fecal plumes, shipping noise, and why Moby-Dick is still worth reading. (Part 3 of "Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.")

• SOURCES:
  • Michele Baggio, professor of economics at the University of Connecticut.
  • Mary K. Bercaw-Edwards, professor of maritime English at the University of Connecticut and lead foreman at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
  • Hester Blum, professor of Engl...

For years, whale oil was used as lighting fuel, industrial lubricant, and the main ingredient in (yum!) margarine. Whale meat was also on a few menus. But today, demand for whale products is at a historic low. And yet some countries still have a whaling industry. We find out why. (Part 2 of “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

• SOURCES:
  • Jay Alabaster, doctoral student at Arizona State University’s Walter Cronkite Schoo...

Whaling was, in the words of one scholar, “early capitalism unleashed on the high seas.” How did the U.S. come to dominate the whale market? Why did whale hunting die out here — and continue to grow elsewhere? And is that whale vomit in your perfume? (Part 1 of “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

• SOURCES:
  • Eric Hilt, professor of economics at Wellesley College.
  • Nathaniel Philbrick, writer and historian.
  • Paul Watson, env...

It’s a haphazard way of paying workers, and yet it keeps expanding. With federal tax policy shifting in a pro-tip direction, we revisit an episode from 2019 to find out why.

• SOURCES:
  • John List, economist at the University of Chicago.
  • Michael Lynn, professor of consumer behavior and marketing at Cornell University’s School of Hotel Administration.
  • Uri Gneezy, economist at the University of California, San Diego’s Rady School of...

They should have died out when the lightbulb was invented. Instead they’re a $10 billion industry. What does it mean that we still want tiny fires inside our homes?

• SOURCES:
  • Tim Cooper, professor emeritus of sustainable design and consumption at Nottingham Trent University.
  • Gökçe Günel, professor of anthropology at Rice University.
  • Steve Horenziak, president of the National Candle Association.
  • Meik Wiking, Danish happiness r...

The former secretary of state isn’t a flamethrower, but he certainly has strong opinions. In this wide-ranging conversation with Stephen Dubner, he gives them all: on Israel, Gaza, China, Iran, Russia, Biden, Trump — and the rest of the world.

• SOURCES:
  • Antony Blinken, former Secretary of State.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Evaluating the impact of two decades of USAID interventions and projecting the effects of defunding on ...

Until recently, Delaware was almost universally agreed to be the best place for companies to incorporate. Now, with Elon Musk leading a corporate stampede out of the First State, we revisit an episode from 2023 that asked if Delaware’s “franchise” is wildly corrupt, wildly efficient … or both?

• SOURCES:
  • John Cassara, retired Special Agent detailee to the U.S. Department of Treasury’s Office of Terrorism Finance and Financial ...

For years, the playwright David Adjmi was considered “polarizing and difficult.” But creating Stereophonic seems to have healed him. Stephen Dubner gets the story — and sorts out what Adjmi has in common with Richard Wagner.

• SOURCES:
  • David Adjmi, author and playwright.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The West End is enjoying a theatre revival. Can Broadway keep up?" by Daniel Thomas (Financial Times, 2025).
  • Lot Six: A Memoir, by...