People I (Mostly) Admire

From recording some of the first rap hits to revitalizing Johnny Cash's career, the legendary producer has had an extraordinary creative life. In this episode he talks about his new book and his art-making process — and helps Steve get in touch with his own artistic side. 

• SOURCES:
  • Rick Rubin, music producer and record executive.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Creative Act: A Way of Being, by Rick Rubin (2023).
  • “How Google’s...

More than two decades ago, Adam Riess’s Nobel Prize-winning work fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe. His new work is reshaping cosmology for a second time.

• RESOURCES:
  • Adam Riess, astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins University.

• SOURCES:
  • "The Nobel Prize Winner Who Thinks We Have the Universe All Wrong," by Ross Andersen (The Atlantic, 2025).
  • "The answer to life, the universe and everything mig...

Uri Simonsohn is a behavioral science professor who wants to improve standards in his field — so he’s made a sideline of investigating fraudulent academic research. He tells Steve Levitt, who's spent plenty of time rooting out cheaters in other fields, how he does it.

• SOURCES:
  • Uri Simonsohn, professor of behavioral science at Esade Business School.

• RESOURCES:
  • "Gino v. President and Fellows of Harvard College...

Former U.S. Secretary of Education, 3x3 basketball champion, and leader of an anti-gun violence organization are all on Arne’s resume. He’s also Steve’s neighbor. The two talk about teachers caught cheating in Chicago public schools and Steve shares a story he’s never told Arne, about a defining moment in the educator’s life.

• SOURCES:
  • Arne Duncan, the 9th U.S. Secretary of Education; founder of C.R.E.D.; former head of Chica...

Kate Marvel spends her days playing with climate models, which she says are “like a very expensive version of The Sims.” As a physicist she gets tired of being asked to weigh in on economics, geopolitics, and despair — but she still defends the right of scientists to have strong feelings about the planet.

• SOURCES:
  • Kate Marvel, climate scientist and science writer.

• RESOURCES:
  • Human Nature: Nine Ways to Feel A...

Twenty years ago, before the Freakonomics book tour, Bill McGowan taught Steve Levitt to speak in public. In his new book he tries to teach everyone else.

• SOURCES:
  • Bill McGowan, founder and C.E.O. of Clarity Media Group.

• RESOURCES:
  • Speak, Memorably: The Art of Captivating an Audience, by Bill McGowan (2025).
  • "Sheryl Sandberg Gives UC Berkeley Commencement Keynote Speech," (UC Berkeley, 2016).
  • "Our failing scho...

Former professional poker player Annie Duke wrote a book about Steve’s favorite subject: quitting. They talk about why quitting is so hard, how to do it sooner, and why we feel shame when we do something that’s good for us.

• SOURCES:
  • Annie Duke, author and former professional poker player.

• RESOURCES:
  • Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, by Annie Duke (2022).
  • "Heads or Tails: The Impact of a Coin Toss ...

Psychologist David Yeager thinks the conventional wisdom for how to motivate young people is all wrong. His model for helping kids cope with stress is required reading at Steve’s new high school.

• SOURCES:
  • David Yeager, professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.

• RESOURCES:
  • 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation―And Making Y...

She’s a botanist, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and the author of the bestselling Braiding Sweetgrass. In her new book she criticizes the market economy — but she and Steve find a surprising amount of common ground.

• SOURCES:
  • Robin Wall Kimmerer, botanist and founder and director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Na...

Palliative physician B.J. Miller asks: Is there a better way to think about dying? And can death be beautiful?

• SOURCES:
  • B.J. Miller, palliative-care physician and President at Mettle Health.

• RESOURCES:
  • A Beginner’s Guide to the End: Practical Advice for Living Life and Facing Death, by Shoshana Berger and B.J. Miller and (2019).
  • “After A Freak Accident, A Doctor Finds Insight Into ‘Living Life And Facing Deat...

Historian Tom Holland narrowly escaped a career writing vampire novels to become the co-host of the wildly popular podcast The Rest Is History. At Steve’s request, he compares President Trump and Julius Caesar and explains why the culture wars are arguments about Christian theology.

• SOURCES:
  • Tom Holland, historian and host of The Rest is History.

• RESOURCES:
  • Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the W...

John Green returns to the show to talk about tuberculosis — a disease that kills more than a million people a year. Steve has an idea for a new way to get treatment to those in need.

• SOURCES: 
  • John Green, best-selling author and YouTube creator.

• RESOURCES: 
  • Everything Is Tuberculosis: The History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection, by John Green (2025).
  • "The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t a Scienc...

Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records.

• SOURCES:
  • Abraham Verghese, professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Covenant of Water, by Abraham Verghese (2023).
  • “Abrah...

Jens Ludwig has an idea for how to fix America’s gun violence problem — and it starts by rejecting conventional wisdom from both sides of the political aisle. 

• SOURCES:
  • Jens Ludwig, professor of economics at the University of Chicago and director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

• RESOURCES:
  • Unforgiving Places: The Unexpected Origins of American Gun Violence, by Jens Ludwig (2025).
  • "Scope Challenges to S...

Ellen Wiebe is a physician who helps seriously ill patients end their lives in Canada, where assisted suicide is legal. Is death a human right?

• SOURCES: 
  • Ellen Wiebe, clinical professor of medicine at the University of British Columbia.

• RESOURCES: 
  • "The Last Decision by the World’s Leading Thinker on Decisions," by Jason Zweig (The Wall Street Journal, 2025).
  • "Most Americans Favor Legal Euthanasia," by Rachae...

He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, but things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used game theory to stage a victory on Survivor.

• SOURCES:
  • Yul Kwon, vice president o...

Ken Goldberg is at the forefront of robotics — which means he tries to teach machines to do things humans find trivial.

• SOURCES:
  • Ken Goldberg, professor of industrial engineering and operations research at U.C. Berkeley.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The Bitter Lesson," by Rich Sutton (UT Austin, 2019).
  • R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots): A Fantastic Melodrama in Three Acts and an Epilogue, by Karel Capek (2019).
  • "The Robot in ...

Suzanne O'Sullivan is a neurologist who sees many patients with psychosomatic disorders. Their symptoms may be psychological in origin, but their pain is real and physical — and the way we practice medicine, she argues, is making those and other health problems worse.

• SOURCES:
  • Suzanne O'Sullivan, neurologist and author of The Age of Diagnosis How Our Obsession with Medical Labels Is Making Us Sicker.

• RESOURCES:...

Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope.

• SOURCES:
  • Reginald Dwayne Betts, founder and director of Freedom Reads, award-winning poet, and lawyer.

• RESOURCES:
  • Doggerel: Poems, by Reginald Dwayne Betts (2025).
  • “The Poet Writing on Pris...