People I (Mostly) Admire

Twenty years ago, before the Freakonomics book tour, Bill McGowan taught Steve Levitt to speak in public. In his new book he tries to teach everyone else.

• SOURCES:
  • Bill McGowan, founder and C.E.O. of Clarity Media Group.

• RESOURCES:
  • Speak, Memorably: The Art of Captivating an Audience, by Bill McGowan (2025).
  • "Sheryl Sandberg Gives UC Berkeley Commencement Keynote Speech," (UC Berkeley, 2016).
  • "Our failing scho...

Former professional poker player Annie Duke wrote a book about Steve’s favorite subject: quitting. They talk about why quitting is so hard, how to do it sooner, and why we feel shame when we do something that’s good for us.

• SOURCES:
  • Annie Duke, author and former professional poker player.

• RESOURCES:
  • Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, by Annie Duke (2022).
  • "Heads or Tails: The Impact of a Coin Toss ...

Psychologist David Yeager thinks the conventional wisdom for how to motivate young people is all wrong. His model for helping kids cope with stress is required reading at Steve’s new high school.

• SOURCES:
  • David Yeager, professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.

• RESOURCES:
  • 10 to 25: The Science of Motivating Young People: A Groundbreaking Approach to Leading the Next Generation―And Making Y...

She’s a botanist, a member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and the author of the bestselling Braiding Sweetgrass. In her new book she criticizes the market economy — but she and Steve find a surprising amount of common ground.

• SOURCES:
  • Robin Wall Kimmerer, botanist and founder and director of the Center for Native Peoples and the Environment.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Serviceberry: Abundance and Reciprocity in the Na...

Palliative physician B.J. Miller asks: Is there a better way to think about dying? And can death be beautiful?

• SOURCES:
  • B.J. Miller, palliative-care physician and President at Mettle Health.

• RESOURCES:
  • A Beginner’s Guide to the End: Practical Advice for Living Life and Facing Death, by Shoshana Berger and B.J. Miller and (2019).
  • “After A Freak Accident, A Doctor Finds Insight Into ‘Living Life And Facing Deat...

Historian Tom Holland narrowly escaped a career writing vampire novels to become the co-host of the wildly popular podcast The Rest Is History. At Steve’s request, he compares President Trump and Julius Caesar and explains why the culture wars are arguments about Christian theology.

• SOURCES:
  • Tom Holland, historian and host of The Rest is History.

• RESOURCES:
  • Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the W...

John Green returns to the show to talk about tuberculosis — a disease that kills more than a million people a year. Steve has an idea for a new way to get treatment to those in need.

• SOURCES: 
  • John Green, best-selling author and YouTube creator.

• RESOURCES: 
  • Everything Is Tuberculosis: The History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection, by John Green (2025).
  • "The Deadliest Infectious Disease Isn’t a Scienc...

Abraham Verghese is a physician and a best-selling author — in that order, he says. He explains the difference between curing and healing, and tells Steve why doctors should spend more time with patients and less with electronic health records.

• SOURCES:
  • Abraham Verghese, professor of medicine at Stanford University and best-selling novelist.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Covenant of Water, by Abraham Verghese (2023).
  • “Abrah...

Jens Ludwig has an idea for how to fix America’s gun violence problem — and it starts by rejecting conventional wisdom from both sides of the political aisle. 

• SOURCES:
  • Jens Ludwig, professor of economics at the University of Chicago and director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

• RESOURCES:
  • Unforgiving Places: The Unexpected Origins of American Gun Violence, by Jens Ludwig (2025).
  • "Scope Challenges to S...

Ellen Wiebe is a physician who helps seriously ill patients end their lives in Canada, where assisted suicide is legal. Is death a human right?

• SOURCES: 
  • Ellen Wiebe, clinical professor of medicine at the University of British Columbia.

• RESOURCES: 
  • "The Last Decision by the World’s Leading Thinker on Decisions," by Jason Zweig (The Wall Street Journal, 2025).
  • "Most Americans Favor Legal Euthanasia," by Rachae...

He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, but things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used game theory to stage a victory on Survivor.

• SOURCES:
  • Yul Kwon, vice president o...

Ken Goldberg is at the forefront of robotics — which means he tries to teach machines to do things humans find trivial.

• SOURCES:
  • Ken Goldberg, professor of industrial engineering and operations research at U.C. Berkeley.

• RESOURCES:
  • "The Bitter Lesson," by Rich Sutton (UT Austin, 2019).
  • R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots): A Fantastic Melodrama in Three Acts and an Epilogue, by Karel Capek (2019).
  • "The Robot in ...

Suzanne O'Sullivan is a neurologist who sees many patients with psychosomatic disorders. Their symptoms may be psychological in origin, but their pain is real and physical — and the way we practice medicine, she argues, is making those and other health problems worse.

• SOURCES:
  • Suzanne O'Sullivan, neurologist and author of The Age of Diagnosis How Our Obsession with Medical Labels Is Making Us Sicker.

• RESOURCES:...

Reginald Dwayne Betts spent more than eight years in prison. Today he's a Yale Law graduate, a MacArthur Fellow, and a poet. His nonprofit works to build libraries in prisons so that more incarcerated people can find hope.

• SOURCES:
  • Reginald Dwayne Betts, founder and director of Freedom Reads, award-winning poet, and lawyer.

• RESOURCES:
  • Doggerel: Poems, by Reginald Dwayne Betts (2025).
  • “The Poet Writing on Pris...

Chemist Jack Szostak wants to understand how the first life forms came into being on Earth. He and Steve discuss the danger of "mirror bacteria," the origin of biology in poisonous chemicals, and the possibility that life might exist on other planets too. 

• SOURCES:
  • Jack Szostak, Nobel laureate and professor of chemistry at The University of Chicago.

• RESOURCES:
  • Is Earth Exceptional?: The Quest for Cosmic Life...

Owen Flanagan's newest book details his 20-year dependence on alcohol and pills — and outlines his research on what addiction can tell us about the nature of consciousness.

• SOURCES:
  • Owen Flanagan, philosopher, neurobiologist, and professor emeritus at Duke University.

• RESOURCES:
  • What Is It Like to Be an Addict?: Understanding Substance Abuse, by Owen Flanagan (2025).
  • Consciousness Reconsidered, by Owen Flanag...

The primatologist discusses the thrill of observing chimpanzees in the wild, the value of challenging orthodoxy, and why dying is her next great adventure.

• SOURCES:
  • Dr. Jane Goodall, GBE, founder of the Jane Goodall Institute and U.N. Messenger of Peace.

• RESOURCES:
  • The Book of Hope: A Survival Guide for Trying Times, by Jane Goodall, Douglas Abrams, and Gail Hudson (2021).
  • Jane, by Brett Morgen (2017).
  • “Rememb...

Hank Green is an internet phenomenon and a master communicator, with a plan to reform higher education. He and Steve talk about the video blog that launched Hank’s career, the economics of the internet, and how a cancer diagnosis prompted him to become a stand-up comedian.

• SOURCES:
  • Hank Green, founder of Complexly and science communicator

• RESOURCES:
  • Complexly
  • CrashCourse YouTube Channel
  • SciShow YouTube Channel
  • ...

Jonathan Levin is an academic economist who now runs one of the most influential universities in the world. He tells Steve how he saved Comcast a billion dollars, why he turned down Steve’s unusual pitch to come to the University of Chicago, and why being a nice guy makes him a better college president.

• SOURCE:
  • Jonathan Levin, president of Stanford University.  

• RESOURCES:
  • "Income Segregation and Intergenera...