Post-Graduate Psychopath

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
These are our stories, Dundun.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm Kara Klink.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
And I'm Liza Traeger and we're here talking SVU. The
True Crimes are based on and we are union strong
with SAG and WGA. There are no guests and holy
that'll change soon.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
Guess what. I went to picket last week.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I went to Picket with This with Sagan WGA at
Disney and I ran into Robert brooks Cohen the pod. Yeah,
he lives in La now full time. And we chatted
for a minute and I was like so happy to
see him. For those who don't know, he was a
writer on SVU and he was a great guest.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
So if you want to go back in time and
check that one out.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
We'll definitely have him on again one day post strike.
I feel like he has a lot of tea that
he has yet to spill. But yeah, and he kind
of went viral because he made this like he made
this like letter board that said like in the like
in the television industry, writers are considered especially important or whatever.
It was like this whole thing he did that was
based on the sview thing, and it like went viral,

(01:34):
like all these people were posting it, and Warren Light
posted a picture of him with it too and stuff.
So because I know he was picketing in New York also,
but I think he's LA now, which is exciting. I
told him we'll see him at our next LA show
and we're post to coast right now.

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Kara is in LA. I am in New York having
the time of my life. I you know, everyone leaves
New York in August, and I came for Labor Day.
You know, everyone leaves for Labor Day. They're in the
Hans Ends. I have the best time of my fucking life.
Like New York has so many different like you think
of the concrete jungle. Okay, see that wasn't even on
the rhythm. You don't have to edit that. That was

(02:09):
not copyritted, And I said, copyrightted. Things are going wild
over here. But for you know, I went to Red Hook,
which is a cool neighborhood on the water, and then
the next day, I went to a hotel pool and
then the next day I took an hour something ferry
to the beach, to the rockways. So it's like what
you think New York is. There's just so much ocean

(02:30):
and water and food.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
When I lived there, I like never went to the beach.
I mean, I think I went to Coney Island once,
but I just like road rise, I didn't really go
in the water.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Like, so it's, you know, what's fucked up. I've been
to the beach more in New York than I have
in La.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Oh. I mean, I never go to the beach in
LA It's too much of a process. I should.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
My goal is I gotta go one more time. It
really But that's the thing. The hotel pool so nice
because like it's the it's the it's the getting to
the beach. The walk back, you know, it's the classic
yak back. That's like your sandy. You're sweaty, it's done.
You have to put everything back, you know. It's yeah, yeah,

(03:11):
you hard, it's hard.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah, I hate being sandy, but I do like the beach. Well,
I would go with you during a week day. I
just don't want to fuck with the weekends. And taking
my kids and stuff like Oscar still naps, Like I'm
not doing all that.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
They were not invited. They I want that to be
very ch So that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm just saying in general. With me going to the beach,
everyone's always like, bring your kids to the beach. I'm like,
not right now, not until the knaps are done. I
think I don't want to do it. It sounds so
annoying to have your kids be all sandy.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, the best part was on the ferry back.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Me and the girls were sitting not on the seats
but on like the white containers that hold the safety jackets,
like the lat pockets. So we're sitting because we want
to look. We want to look at the ocean. A
group of very religious Jewish women stand in front of us,
and then this other woman and the woman goes, oh,
did we block your view?

Speaker 3 (04:03):
But it's like, what, it's fine, you know, you gotta stand.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
If you want to stand, we're gonna we're gonna ruin
the teens view. No, But then the woman's skirt kept
flowing up with the wind and she kept mooning us
with her full lavender underwear and to see a modest
religious woman's butt over and over again.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
What a day. So, hey, you know what only in
New York. That's so funny. Oh my god, my parents
just landed in Israel this morning. No, yeah, I didn't
even know they were going. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
My mom is like, oh, we have a room overlooking
the Mediterranean.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
I just what I need. I was like, yeah, Mom,
go I have at it.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
But like, yeah, they my dad has this like cousin
who's like a Holocaust survivor and lives there and is
like ninety eight, and I think they just wanted to
go see her one more time.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
So they're seeing her and hopefully I'll get a dip
into the Mediterranean. Yeah, I hope. So you're not watching
Below Decks Sailing yet, are you?

Speaker 1 (05:05):
I mean, down here, I'm just keeping track of all
the near missed sexual assaults that are happening.

Speaker 3 (05:12):
But I'm not. I'm not watching. I watched well what
about Roney?

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, So I fell asleep last night halfway through the episode.
So I'm ei they're getting ready for Anguila, but they
haven't gone yet.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
And Guila's just the weird it feels. It doesn't roll
off my tongue. No, it's a hard word to say.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
But I've seen pictures of friends that have gone there,
and it does look pretty awesome.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
I mean, I would love to.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Go any island would be fucking fantastic. Take it It's island,
I'm coming.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
I used to babysit on that island a lot of island, yeah,
because it's you know, it's Upper East and it's across
from some hospitals, so I would go babysit for.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Some doctors, some residents, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
My friend Andrea rose And is from there, and we
were just talking about it.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
I just saw her recently. She grew up there, and.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
I'm always like, what was that like, Like they don't
even have a school past sixth grade. I don't think
like they have to go into the city for like school,
but like it's such a I don't even think I've
ever been there.

Speaker 2 (06:15):
Yeah, No, New York is And we passed Governor's Island
on the ferry. I mean, it really is just multi faceted.
I had the best cheeseburger of my life a Red
Hook tavern, Like ooh yeah, it was just kind of
too good to be true. And then I went to
Friends South yesterday. There was some more Toadella, my favorite.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
You know, like, I'm so glad you had such a
magical weekend I have been.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
I actually do want to bring this up to the
listeners because I'm sure I'm going to get a ton
of messages with uh suggestions. But I have been potty
training my son all weekend doing the pants off method.
My husband woke up with an illness on the first
day of body training and has been in bed the
entire time. We just found out he has pneumonia. Don't worry,
he's in recovery. He's got medication. But like I've been

(07:03):
like single handedly potty training a child while dealing with
another child. He's peeing everywhere. I hate every second of
it and I want to die. But you know, I
sent him to school today and told his teachers we're
fifty to fifty, so good luck.

Speaker 3 (07:19):
We'll see what happens. But anyway, it's just been like.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
A never ending weekend of blah because that's all I've
been doing. So I'm really glad that you have a good,
counterbalancing good weekend too.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
And what's happening or oh yeah, why is he pissing
everywhere and taking the shits on the floor.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
He hasn't taken a shit on the floor at our house. Luckily,
he has actually been proactive about shitting in the body.
But peeing is like it's like he doesn't know what's happening,
Like he's just talking to me while it's happening.

Speaker 3 (07:47):
He's just like he was. I took him.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I took him because on the last day, the third day,
you're allowed to go on short outings. So I took
him to our friend's house and he immediately peed on
this like there's these couches called the Nugget and they're like,
you know, they kids can build like forts with them.
They're like multi piece couches or like little couches for kids.
And he was climbing on it and just pete. I
was like, I've never seen you pee like in motion

(08:09):
while doing something, Like, what is wrong with.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
What's going on with you?

Speaker 1 (08:13):
So I'm just really trying to keep it cool, which
is what my potty training course told me is to
keep it cool. So I'm like, oh, hey, man, you
pete in your pants. You're supposed to do it in
the potty maybe next time. Anyway, I'm supposed to act
like that doesn't bother me at all, and it honestly
is killing me, you know, because I don't like pee
on my body or on my hands or when I

(08:35):
step in it.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
I don't like it.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
There was a pea incident with potty training on the
Real House Says of New York.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Oh yeah, I saw that. I got to that part
that actually made me feel a little bit better. I
was like, Okay, I guess kids be pissing.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
I knew I had something to bring to the table,
and it just hit me, you know. Besides bragging about
my gorgeous labor day weekend, which I hope everyone had,
I also want to thank everyone that wished me a
happy birth. I saw all of your nice posts and messages,
so thank you so much for that.

Speaker 3 (09:05):
I appreciate it. I am old and I am cool.

Speaker 1 (09:08):
Oh and by the way, my birthday is tomorrow, so
I expect the same verb as you gave Lisa.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yeah, we are competitive with birthday wishes. We will be
counting the amount of posts per person. But you did
a great job on my slideshow. That was a nice
little surprise to wait Ojay. I was really surprised by that.
And you know, Kara and our friend Laurence sent me
some cupcakes to the suburbs.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Of Chicago, and I have another thing here for you.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
I'm actually like looking at it right now, but it's
a little silly thing that I want to give you
for your birthday. But I'll wait till you return from
your travels, of course, so listen.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
After the day at the pool, my friend who I'm
staying with, went to bed at eight pm, so I yes,
eight pm. She left me and I was like, okay,
but I wasn't gonna go out. So I watched the
Telemarketers the whole three part series. Then I watched the
documentary HQ, which was about this trivia phone app. And

(10:13):
then I watched a four part series on Sean White,
the snowboarder, and I'm into snowboarding. Map he is my icon,
my idol. I pray to the at whatever to Sean White.
I didn't know anything. And then Julia, who I'm saying with,
is like, yeah, we yeah, he's a big deal.

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Like I didn't realize. Like I knew he was an
Olympic gold medalist.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Of course I knew he was very good, but a
revolutionary in the sport. He is the reason snowboarding is
what it is today. His family is incredible. They are
all so tight knit and like even the sister in
the doc was like, yeah, he's obviously incredibly talented, but
if he didn't have our parents, this might not happen.
They got a van, they would live in a van

(10:58):
and just drive from mountain to mountain, and they would
fly as a whole family like supporting him. He is
so fucking cool. I just really enjoyed the documentary. Of
course I cried, you know, he got his mama Lexus
and so I I bawled. But the injuries he's had.
But then it wasn't enough. So I'm sleeping in the

(11:18):
living room. But I couldn't sleep in the morning, so
I'm on YouTube and Julia comes out and she goes,
are you watching Sean White videos?

Speaker 3 (11:26):
And I go, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Go get ready, get ready for my snowboard era. I've
never been interested in winter sports in any capacity, but
I think I might try snowboarding.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
I want to kind of try it now. That's so fun.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Oh my god, more about how you and Rosie are
freaking soulmates. She literally yesterday goes, mom, can I try snowboarding?

Speaker 3 (11:46):
And I was like, sure, I.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Don't know how to snowboard, but maybe Uncle Kevin can
teach us because my brother snowboards. And she was like, okay,
I go, but just so you know, when you first
start snowboarding, you land on your butt a lot. And
she was like, okay, I'm ready. Well that's maybe me
and Rosie could take a lesson. Yeah, and I'll together
drink drink a little spike hot chocolate. Wait, I've met
Sean White.

Speaker 3 (12:07):
Wait get the in Torino.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Yeah, in Torino, in bardonek Ya, I went to I
went with Katie Couric to for to interview him the
Flying Tomato.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
But I didn't really.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
Know, like I knew he was famous, but I was
like phi, you know, like I wasn't really like.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
Exactly I didn't.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
I didn't realize what And because he pushed the sport
because he started practicing with foam pits and just like
now you know, the whole point of the four part
doc is like the last run and it's his fifth
Olympics and like, you know, just his retirement ride. But
the youth are so good because of him.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
He elevated the sport and so now all these teenagers
are incredible doing tricks that his old, you know, his old.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
He's thirty five.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
His body he can't do it, he can't do it,
all these injuries. But his physical therapy is amazing. And
she works with Serena and Venus and they have such
a lovely relationship. His coach is cool.

Speaker 3 (13:06):
And he's dating Nina Jabriv which people with her. Yeah,
she's Vampire Diaries.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, and she dated Ian smolder Holder from Smolder Holder.

Speaker 3 (13:19):
I knew it, and you didn't say it.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
I was going to say it, but yeah, because I
found an article and it was like all Nina's exes
and their estimated wealth like net worth, and his is,
of course more than anybody's. He's worth sixty five million dollars.
I mean his Red Bull contract was for one hundred
million dollars.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
He's like Tony Hawk with skateboarding, right exactly. And they
lived Michael to each other, Oh my god, because he
called he goes.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
I got a video game too.

Speaker 2 (13:48):
But like I guess I knew he had long hair
because my favorite clip of him is he's doing a
post Olympic interview and he's like the flight was wild.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
Everyone's giving me attention.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
I've already said this on the pod before, but I
do love it, and they did put it in the
dock and he goes, everyone is giving me drinks and
the newscast goes, drinks, aren't you nineteen?

Speaker 3 (14:07):
And he goes, hah, mountain dews baby.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, like so, and then she goes, did he just
call me baby?

Speaker 3 (14:15):
But I don't know.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I was really inspired. It was really cool. He is, yeah,
and then he's friends with Aaron Paul. I don't know,
it just was sports are really easy material for inspire
inspirational docks, like thirty for thirties. Any kind of sport
thing is usually invigorating. I would say, yeah, yeah, but
you know, and then his mom was really tight with
money and didn't want him to spend. And then finally

(14:38):
he goes, whatever, mom, and then bought two Lamborghinis. But
all this footage but the telemarket So I had like
a documentary Saturday night.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
How was the telemarketing thing? Because I'm dying to watch that.
But everything that those Saftie Brothers guys make like make
me feel like I'm on cocaine and like I have
to so I'm going to be agitated, didn't make it.
They producing it.

Speaker 3 (15:01):
So basically it's this like teen teen scumbag.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
He loved graffiti and his dad was like, you gotta
do it, you gotta get a job. And who's going
to hire a dirt bag team? This telemarketing place that
is a scam.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
I mean, they're.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Highly illegal and they are they're doing fundraising for the
Fraternal Order of the Police and the it's obviously intertwined
with the police and unions, and they're taking people's money
and spending it on golf excursion.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
It's really fucked.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
But so basically, but this teen wanted to be a
documentary filmmaker. So it's so much footage of this place,
so it's like that's how it started. It was just
him as a teen getting all this footage. But a
lot of the people that work there are ex cons
because no one hires felons, but this place, there's no
standards in any way, so these felons come out, they

(15:53):
get jobs. So it's felons and teens and the best
salesman on the force a heroin addict, so he's like
falling asleep on heroin at work. They're sex workers selling
their goods in the back like it was wild.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
It's like there's a camaraderie.

Speaker 2 (16:08):
So it's like using all this footage and then the
dude on Heroin Pat is like, you know, this company
is shady as fuck, and they start investigating, and so
then they lose him because he's an addict, and they
they can't find him for eight years, and then he
hits them back up and they start with their investigation
again and they start talking to government people and all

(16:30):
this stuff. But what's a little wild is they get
really cool meetings and they have a lot of evidence, but.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
He's not good at it.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
So there's a scene where Pat, this heroin dude is
like interviewing someone and the voiceover goes and then we
realized he wasn't very good at this, but they continue
to do it. So they're like trying to do Michael
Moore stuff and they're breaking. They're like entering a police
union conference and he's like going up to a guy.
He's like Yates, Yates, Yates, and the guy's like, I'm

(16:59):
not Yeates, and they go outside. He goes he's denying
who he even is, and they're like his name is Yaus,
It's not Yates, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
So it's like they're bad at it.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
So they get all the information and it is like,
no one wants to fuck with the unions. At the
end of the day, there were there were like national
investigations and the company has got in trouble, but no
one wants to fuck with these unions. But it is
good and there's a lot of cool info and footage,
and I like the friendship and I you know, camaraderie
at a workplace when you're young is special. Yes, Like

(17:31):
I waitress set a coke den restaurant and it's like
there is like fun, you know, stealing clam chowders and
eating them in the back with saying, oh no, that
was fun. But it's they're not good at investigative reporting,
and so every interview they get ends up the bust.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
But they are right and it is corrupt and it
is cool.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
So I think the Safti brothers like joined and probably
made it better and produced. But it's because of all
this old footage she had of this why I'm.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
Not putting I gotta watch it. I can't wait.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
And the heroin dude looks like someone we know, and
it is very funny.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Oh okay, now you got Now I wait, let me
watch it and make my guests.

Speaker 3 (18:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
I also found out through this that before you watched it,
we talked about it with our friends, and we found
out that our friend was a telemarketer and was like
very good at it.

Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
I did fundraising for my university and I was good
at it.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
But I don't think. But I believed in it in
a way.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
I called alumni and was like, give a few bucks,
you know, like I don't.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
I was like, I wasn't selling somebody, uh, you know,
a website that's not real, like jen Shaw or whatever.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
No, but it also like they had all the scripts
and it's they've really they're terrible people. And then some
people's faces are blurred in the interviews, like the people
that own these companies like it. Oh, yeah, it's interesting.
The HQ one was interesting too. I didn't know anything
about it.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
I played HQ religious.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Of course you did. Yeah, that's not I don't have
a doubt in my mind about that.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
I was obsessed with HG.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Well do you know the story of the demise and
all of that. No, I don't even know what happened.
Why did I stop playing?

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Like why, I mean, I guess why do we stop
When did I stop doing Marco Polo? When did we
stop playing house party? I mean, you know, like there's
all these little.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Like no but those like someone lost their life, Like
this is insane. There's there's wild shit in this doc.
That's what I'm meaning about.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Yes, true, the HQ doc Betary is true crime. I
had no idea.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
It's all true. That's what we've learned. Everything is funny.
Everything that's a true crime. You know, once the Housewives
crossed over. Well, I also want to say thanks to
everybody that came out to our shows in Raleigh, Charlotte,
d C, Atlanta. We are back out in October. Get
those tickets Boston. We need you guys to show up.

(19:52):
We're at the wilbur We maybe bit off more than
we could chew and we need to fill those seats.
And then cle We're at a We're in Toronto for
the first time. We're at a ton of cool places.
So go to That's Messed Up Live dot com and
check out where we're going in October and come see us.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
And then yes, the New.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
York tickets are going fast. We might add another show
if you guys keep If you guys keep it, up. So,
but get those New York ticks and we'll let you
know what happens with that should we get.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Started, and I'll be in Brooklyn October eleventh at the Bellhouse.

Speaker 3 (20:24):
There's some tickets left, not a lot. I would get that.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, get those Bellhouse tickets. I'm doing an opening set.
It's gonna blow your fucking mind. Just I mean, we'll
do what I can.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
All right. We have a great.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Episode for you guys, though, so stay right where you are.
You guessed it, guys. We did Born Psychopath last week,
and obviously we're hitting you with the two parter. We're
doing Postgraduate Psychopath Today, season twenty two, the second part
of a I don't know two episodes that with eight

(20:56):
seasons in between. This one aired May twenty twenty one,
and you can tell there's COVID like precautions all over
this episode, so you could tell they shot it during
that time.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
But I don't even think I noticed that.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
Oh yeah, there are screens. There's people talking about masks.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, I saw the screen. I don't know why the
masks and registered so wild.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Well, so if you have not listened to last week's episode,
you probably should.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
If this is your first episode.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
That's pretty wild of our podcast, but go back because
this is part of a two parter. So we open
with a disclaimer on this episode that it's a fictional
story and not based on anyone as usual. Sure, Jan,
So the episode opens with some sepia toned footage of
the last episode, so eight seasons earlier, Born Psychopath. It's
refreshing our memory Henry's being sent to a treatment facility

(21:43):
until he's eighteen years old. Cut to present day, it's
December of twenty twenty and how So I.

Speaker 2 (21:50):
Am curious did they come up with this in the
writer's room? Did Warren Light want him back? Were they
like this would be a great idea like that? I
am so curious, And maybe we need to hit up
Mole because I want to know how they decided to
do this. They've never really done this before outside I
know William Lewis, but that's so connected. They've never done this,

(22:10):
and I am curious how they came up with this
and that the boy agreed.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
To come back and all of that. So, yeah, I
am too.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
That'll be a question when we finally get Warren Light
on the podcast. I'm sure after the strike is resolved,
he's going to be dying to talk. So it's December
of twenty twenty, the heart of the pandemic. Henry Messner
is standing in family court addressing a judge and guess what,
he's eighteen now, and he is describing how he's been
in the facility since he was ten. And by the way,
he doesn't go to Vermont like the way they talk

(22:38):
about it, and the thing he definitely, I think, is
in a facility that's like out on Long Island or
somewhere in New York because you see it later in
the title cards. And he's like, when I got here,
I lacked remorse, empathy, impulse control.

Speaker 3 (22:51):
I was a pathological liar. I had anger issues.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
And we see a flashback of Henry being a creepy
little psycho, like we just all watched this episode last week.
And now his therapist is on the sands saying that
he's been an exemplary patient for the past five years, curious,
proactive in his recovery, and she is just standing behind
a free piece of plexiglass so you can tell its
pandemic vibes, and she I.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Don't know if you remember her.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
She's from that episode with Adam Beach where Chesterlake ends
up murdering people.

Speaker 3 (23:20):
She's in the society with him.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Oh, she's like, Okay, I knew I recognized her. The
actress's name is Deirdre love Joy, which I was like,
that's just a cute name, but I didn't actually look
her up, like to see that.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah, she was the one that was in the Secret
Society of Detectives in Philadelphia with Yeah, which is based
sound like because she sounds familiar, she looks she seems
what's her name again, Deirdre love Joy because love Joy.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
Is also from the Simpsons, Reverend love Joy.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Oh, but she's really familiar.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, she has so many credits. Oh yeah, she's been
working Blacklist sview. Oh wait, she's been on a couple
s views. Hold on, Oh my god. She was in Slaves.
She was in Slaves season one, which we've covered based
on Colleen stan She plays a detective. Then she's the
same detective in season two an episode called Secrets, and
then she plays someone named Penelope Fielding in Cold that's

(24:13):
the one you're talking about, because those are cold cases.
And then she's back as doctor Mackie. Uh so they
obviously love her looking at her stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
This is interesting because I just watched Girls and she's
in an episode of Girls, So I feel like that
might be the connection. Oh okay, and I had because
she seemed so familiar to me. But also she was
in Orange just the New Black for a couple episodes.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Okay, yeah, and she's done like an American horror story.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
She's been working, so she's like, no one could be like.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
Oh, she plays one of Hannah's aunts and girls.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Oh right, right right, that's no one could be hype
manning Henry Mesterner more than this woman.

Speaker 3 (24:52):
She is like, he is the shit.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
And this surminds me of Ed Kemper, you know, who
was able to he was so smart because a lot
of these psychopaths are really high IQ and so Ed Kemper,
you know, killed his like grandma and grandpa as a
youth and was able to trick everyone, become everyone's favorite guy,
and they feel good about themselves because they're like, Wow,
I'm an amazing psychologist.

Speaker 3 (25:16):
I cured this little psycho and they know how to
fake it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:20):
So this reminds me of Ed Kemper, which is a
case that we covered. If you know, if you're new
to this pod and you want to go explore. We
already gave you a couple examples.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, it's a cool, it's a it's a it's a
it's fucking psycho, but it's a very I love the
Ed Kemper stuff.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's so interesting.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Well because Slaves also that you mentioned, was one of
our first episodes we've ever done and still haunts me.
I think about Colleen stan weekly. Yeah, I think about
her all the time. It really affected me.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
It's a yeah, horrific case and the people can survive
come back from the edge of such horror.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Oh you know what this actress though to come back
to it. She was sixty episodes of The Wire, so
because people will yell if we didn't sixty they know.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Okay, you guys know The Wire is my blind spot.
I never watched it, so but that is that is
a big thing for her. Yeah, sixty episodes, and she's
done regular law and Order, and I bet you she's
done you know, Oh, she's done criminal intent. So she's
done the whole tri EFFECTA. So the sister Ruby, who
is now thirteen, who Henry tried to kill, is like
in the gallery at court watching his therapist says that

(26:32):
when he was admitted, he was on the severe end
of the psychopathy checklist. And we're seeing, you know, a
flashback of Henry describing how he just super coolly killed Snowball,
but the therapist insisting that now he's learned how to
control his emotions and behavior. And now on the stand
is Henry's dad, who was sitting with the sister. But
I didn't recognize it because they have recast him. He

(26:52):
is a different man.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
Isn't a recast? I thought maybe he just got a
little older.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
No, the season fourteen actor was na to Alex Mannette,
who weirdly was also in the movie We Need to
Talk About Kevin, which is like conic movie about a
child psychopath.

Speaker 3 (27:07):
Which I saw on one of my first dates with Jared.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
If that is tells you anything anyway, it looks like
this guy stopped acting in twenty seventeen, so that's probably
why he didn't come back to reprise the role. And
now it's being played by Jason Cottole, and I don't
really know anything him from anything. He's on the stand
saying that him and his new wife Holly, and his
sister Ruby have visited regularly Henry in this facility. They

(27:29):
can't wait for him to come home and live with
them and live with his new little.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Brother arlow uh oh.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
He also reveals, I just think having a when you
mentioned that, like there's gonna be a little kid around
a psychopath, I don't like that. I mean immediate hairs
on the back of my neck. So he also reveals
that Henry's mother passed away five years ago aka Hope
Davis was busy and not replaceable because I think she
had a bigger part in the last episode and she's
more recognizable and they're like, but she would be so
proud of Henry, he says. And Henry testifies that the

(27:58):
staff and doctor Mackie have helped and encouraged him so much.

Speaker 3 (28:01):
They really had faith that he could change.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
And the judge is like, all right, let me think
about this and I'll get a decision to you before
the holidays. And Henry gives this like extremely freaky half smile.
This actor is like very good, like he's so dead eyes,
it's like really and he just gives a sort of
like half smile that you could kind of if you
were the judge be like, oh, is he smiling or
is he a total psycho? It's like very, very confusing,

(28:25):
and that leads us right into the credits. From the credits,
we are smashed right in to seeing a girl getting
wheeled out of a building on a stretcher that says
the building says Manhattan School of Design. So we're at
like one of the many made up colleges in New
York and a uniformed officer is downloading all the info.

Speaker 3 (28:43):
Her name is Libby Blandon. She's nineteen, she's unconscious. She
was found.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Burned, lost a lot of blood or her roomy found
her tied up, gagged and naked, so sexual assault is implied.
Finn and our girl kat Toman aka friend of the
Pod Jamie gray Hyder, are there.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
They go to top to the roommate.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
She's wearing like a two piece outfit with like neon
and like matching neon boots, and she explains that she
and Libby.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
Were at a dage, which is a day rage.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I did double check it and make sure that it
wasn't just like some boomer in the writer's room making
this up. It does exist. I wish we could do better.
I think that sounds like silly slang. But apparently Libby
left the dage early around seven or eight, and the
roommate went to go hook up with her ex, and
then she's like, oh my god, that might have saved
my life. And it's like, also, your friend isn't dead.

(29:30):
Stop being so dramatic. In the dorm room, the scene
is extremely fucked up, like we've seen other scenes, but like,
there is so much blood on the mattress. There's an
extension cord that was used to tie up the victim,
and Finn goes, we're looking at a psycho and Kat
looks like she's about to throw up. She's like new
guy Pugan in the corner, if you know, Tommy Boy, and.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
She's very disturbed by what she's seeing.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
Security cameras have kids coming in and out of the
building all night, and half of them are wearing masks,
not mascarade style, COVID style, so it's like, gonna be
very hard to like weed this guy out. And Kat's like,
he had to have left DNA, and Finn's like, yeah,
but he might not be in the system. Someone this
fucked up. If they were in the system, they would
have never let them out. And it's like yeah, but Finn.

(30:14):
We've seen the system let out dangerous psychos a million times,
like the Baker Butcher of Alaska. The fucking guy was
hunting women in the woods of Alaska. He was in
jail like three times before he went out and did
all that. So anyway, now we're at the playground, Rollins
is in mom mode, Jesse is swinging, Little Billy is
spundled up in a stroller, and Rollin's on the phone

(30:36):
with her mom talking about how it was your idea
for dad to move in. You can't call me every
time he makes a mess, and blah blah blah. So
Rollins goes, all right, listen, I'll call dad. We'll have
a family meeting. And I was like, I am RSV
being a hard no to the Rollins family meeting. Can
you imagine how psycho that is, just like Amanda.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
And her crazy sister and her crazy mom.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Dastly Henry would fit right in ight in with Yeah,
the Rolins family, right, And the dad gets to bring
his new girlfriend who's like using him for we don't
know what it would be.

Speaker 3 (31:07):
Does Cariesie get to go, Will Billy and Jesse be there?
Who's to say?

Speaker 1 (31:11):
So? She gets a call from Live and ditches her mom. Obviously,
Rollins can't find Jet and she's like, all right, I'll
meet you right there. Rollins then cannot find Jesse immediately,
and this is like a nightmare mom scenario that happens
to me six times a day where I'm just like,
where's Oscar, Like I can't find it. Like Rosie, I
kind of always know we'll not do something crazy, but
Oscar will run into traffic.

Speaker 3 (31:29):
So I have this happen all the time.

Speaker 1 (31:32):
After like five seconds, Jesse appears with a little white dog, Stuffy,
and she.

Speaker 3 (31:36):
Says, oh, a nice man gave it to me.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
And I don't think we've ever discussed this, but I
think everybody must know. Jesse is played by twins whose
names are Charlotte and Vivian Cable, and this is like
a moment where Jesse has more lines and so I
wanted to just shout out those little twinsies. They are
very cute, and Rollins is like very sketched out by
a random man giving her daughter a toy. And then
Jesse drops the hammer and goes, yeah, the man told

(31:59):
me that the puppy's name is Snowball. And Amanda looks
shook because she's like remembering Snowball from eight years ago
at Mercy Hospital. Now Libby is awake and talking to Benson.
You might also remember that this character, Libby Blandon is
in the beginning of the episode Tangle Strands of Justice.
Remember she's stealing all those watches from her sugar daddy

(32:20):
and then a Queen's detective played by Orphe uses her
DNA from this case to bust her illegally. So if
you're wondering how do I remember Libby Blandon, this is
where we first meet her. She explains that this purp
knocked on her dorm room door, said he was locked out,
asked to use her cell phone, and so she let
him in. I thought he was a student. He's the
same age as me, he knew my name, she says.

(32:40):
He pulled a knife and said should I cut your
clothes off or burn them off?

Speaker 3 (32:43):
And she didn't answer him. He just smiled, tied.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Her up, cut her clothes, sexually assaulted her, bring her
with cigarettes.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
Ugh.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
When I first saw this, I thought it was going
to be two crimes. Like I feel like a fool.
I totally thought it was going to be like two
Dueling crimes. Like I was really, even though I've seen
this episode before, I was like shocked it was him. Yeah,
this is a I.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Mean, this episode's delivered like two this podcast had started
when this episode aired. This is like an episode.

Speaker 3 (33:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
So he she says he choked her until she'd almost
pass out. So this guy's like very much torturing her
for fun. And then before he left, he asked for
her debit card on the code. Then he came back
and took one of her stuffed animals, and Rollins is
like it wasn't a white dog, was it, and like, yeah, bitch,
it actually was. She shows a picture because she has
a picture of the stuffy on her phone and Libby goes, yeah,

(33:33):
that's Daisy, and so I guess her stuffed animals named Daisy.
And then a nurse comes in to bring Libby to
surgery and Lives talking to Rollins and Lives like, what
the hell what's up with the stuffed animal? And Rollins
is like, here's the whole story, and Lives immediately panicked
and she's like and Rollins says, don't worry. The girls
are with my mom, and Livy is like, I'm sending
an officer anyway. Rollins is like, this can't be a coincidence, right,

(33:54):
and lives like, there's no way. Henry Mesterer must still
be locked up, And It's like it's pretty simple math.
He was ten, it's been eight years. He's out, and
Rollins is like, let's make some calls. Finn has a
hit on the debit card and lives like, be careful.
This guy knows who we are, so now we're in
Cooper Square and guess who we.

Speaker 3 (34:10):
Are fucking talking to.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
It's Keys, the guy from Wednesday's Child who has all
the sets of keys and moves everybody's cars.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
We just talked to him.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
We just met this character like four episodes ago on
our podcast, not in the run of the show, and
he's played by Andre de heartbreaking because I would have
loved to try to get Andre Deshields, you know, but.

Speaker 3 (34:34):
It happens.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
We do love keys, We do love keys, and you
know Andrea Shields. And I will say it again, even
though I said in the other episode his Tony Award
winning speech is very inspirational and if you need a
boost in your spirit, I would watch it.

Speaker 1 (34:49):
And I know we have our casting mole that listens.
Let's get Andre to Shields in season twenty.

Speaker 3 (34:53):
Five when things pick back up, Let's get him.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
On yeah, bigger portion. In Key, something happened Keys Whitnest.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
This is a crime.

Speaker 1 (35:00):
Let's get Keys like, actually, you know most of he's
all been circumstantial here, but basically what happens here is
he goes, why are you messing with Keys again? Which
I love because we're supposed to like remember Keys from
multiple seasons ago. And Finn's like, you used a stolen
debit card last night, and he's like, I didn't hurt anyone.
I'm just trying to survive. And the guy's like, he
only let me have fifty bucks. I'll give it back.

(35:20):
I don't want anything to do with that guy, and
he says he ain't right.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
So this guy and Keys Knowskes has been in this
city for the decade.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Keys meets all kinds and if someone's freaking out Keys,
this guy is freaky.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
So he goes. This guy had me use the ATM
takeout cash.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
And then made me go buy quote a bunch of
crazy stuff at the hardware store, zip ties, rope, duct tape, oh,
and a hand torch.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
Cool.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
This guy obviously has a thing for fire and burning,
as we've established. At the hospital, Rollins is calling around,
but it's a Saturday. No one will tell her where
the fuck Henry Messer is or acting like it's confidentiality,
like they it feels like it would be public record
that he was released into the public, but I don't know.
In walks Libby's mother, doctor Blandon, played by Margaret Reid,

(36:07):
who also played defense attorney Felicia Chatham in the episode's Debt, Charisma,
and Stranger, which are all episodes we've covered on this podcast.
So it turns out that the mom is an adolescent
psychologist specializing in violent behavior, so she knows that whoever
did this is a psychopath, and Rollins is like, okay, well,
now we are definitely not in coincidence territory anymore. Does

(36:28):
the name Henry Messner ring any psycho bells for you?
And she's like, I haven't seen Henry in five years,
And she says she was the one that told him
that his mother had died, and they go, did you
ever tell Henry about your daughter?

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Libby?

Speaker 1 (36:42):
And she goes sometimes to get patients to open up,
Please don't tell me they've released him and then live
in Rolins share a look. So now at the Messner's home,
they're banging on the door. No one's answering. Neighbors haven't
seen hide er hair of these people since yesterday.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
They bust in.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
It's a mess, shit smashed. There is blood splattered everywhere.
Pretty quickly, we see the legs of a little boy
in a pool of blood, which is fucked up like
we have not seen that many times. And this is
like a five year old boy. Cat looks terrified, like
she looks truly. I don't know what episode this is
for Cat, but she's look, Oh god, this is not
what I'm used to I forgot what department she came from,

(37:21):
but I don't think it was dead little boys in
a pool of blood. So Amanda finds the step mom
in the kitchen, murdered. Wait this whole time I was away,
did you ever watch mob Wives? No?

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Do you know who Big Anne is? Though?

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Of course? Okay, so Big Ann rest in peace. There's
an amazing clip of her going around where she's talking
to somebody about a new guy she's dating. She goes, well,
he just got out off to twenty five years for murder. Anyway,
he's buying me a puppy, and it's like the funniest clip,
and we just played it with my siblings and we
just kept going for murder.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
So when I was when I was.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Writing this, I wrote, the mom Stepmom's in the kitchen, murdered.
The dad is dead, face down in what looks like
a very elaborate breakfast spread. And then Kat goes there's
another body and lives like, well, the sister would be thirteen,
and Cat's like no, this is a little boy like five,
and they're like, okay, this guy is on a spree
and it started here.

Speaker 3 (38:16):
So the bodies are.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
We find out at the top of AC two that
the bodies are out of rigor. Time of death is
within forty eight hours. So basically the timeline is, he
murders his whole family Friday morning, assaults Libby Friday night.
On Saturday morning, he goes to the park where he
approaches Jesse. Also, the gun safe in the house is
wide open and empty, so now this kid is armed,
and we have no idea how many even fucking guns

(38:40):
this dad had, so who knows how dangerous this kid is.
Benson gets a call Ruby is alive, and she goes, oh,
thank god, she was staying at a friend's house in
Oyster Bay, and Rollin goes, yeah, but now we have
to tell a thirteen year old that her whole family's
been murdered, and Benson's like, right, I forgot, Yes, that's true.
We do have to do that, and then they do

(39:00):
a quick shot of a tiny body bag before we
head over to Oyster Bay. Ruby is with her friend
Charlotte and her friend's mom, Megan, and the detectives have
already broken the news, like Ruby's crying, and they're like, okay,
we need to talk to Ruby alone. So the friend
and the mom walk away with Cat. But the mom
is like, I definitely don't want to be a target
for a serial killing psychopath.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
Are we supposed to be worried?

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Cat's like, no, worry, there's gonna be a twenty four
to seven police presence outside. Don't leave the house. And
the mom is like, listen, I was friends with Holly,
the stepmom. She was terrified of Henry. She tried to
tell Tom, and honestly, the dad is to blame for
all of this, Like the dad never thought he should
be sent away. And then the dad's like, after eight years,
he's fixed, Let's bring him home and bring him around

(39:42):
my tiny son. Who how could that kid? How could
any kid would feel a little bit replaced? Like I
got sent away for eight years and you had another
boy when I was gone, Like, and you're just gonna
let him be in the house.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
It's so crazy.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
And it's also weird because they pammed to the stepmom
in and she had like a big smile on her face,
like they were putting on a show for court. But
to her friends, she's like, this kid terrifies me, and
I don't really want him in my house. Kat wonders, Oh,
is that why he had a gun? And Holly was
like Tom thought they just needed to show Henry enough
love and he'd be fine, but Holly insisted on protection.

(40:17):
But they also had a gun before in earlier in
the season fourteen episodes, so I don't really know what
the point of this conversation is. Rollins is talking to Ruby,
who is played by Maxine Wanderer, who was very young
but recently did three episodes of Chicago Fire. So Dick
Wolf sees the potential and she's sad about her little brother.
She's like, ur low, he was just a little boy,

(40:38):
and she says Henry hated him, he was so jealous
of him. She says the last time she talked to
Henry was Friday, she left early for school. While the
rest of the family was having breakfast. Henry and his
dad were fighting because the dad wanted Henry to get
a job, to do something anything.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Well, what happened.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
He was like pretty quick, like I don't understand why
you need to force this kid to have a job.

Speaker 3 (40:59):
He's obviously trouble.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Like, can he just not have a process, Like he's
been locked away for eight years, he can't have a
moment to Breathe totally agree, And I think it's absolutely
because of this dad being a lot like the dad
in like the Pika episode or a lot of these
other episodes where they're like, everything's fine, everything's fine, You're
a normal eighteen year old, Go get a job, like
that's yeah, exactly, Like he's not.

Speaker 3 (41:20):
What would he do? I mean, I don't know. I
feel like he needs a lot.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
You take him to the zoo first, take him to
the beach. Why don't you just like work on your
familial love and relationship, take a week off work? You
amtrak freak, like, I just this dad is outside of
the ones that abuse and murder is my least favorite.
He is the worst dad of yeah, the whole or
you know who the episode popular that Dad's Bad where

(41:46):
he's like happy that his daughter got raped instead of
being a slut, because then it's not her fault.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
That was a bad dad. Oh yeah, a couple bad dads.

Speaker 2 (41:54):
These two dads should go have a fucking meeting in
hell together.

Speaker 3 (41:58):
Fuck yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
So rollins or somebody asks, well, what has he been
up to? And the friend Charlotte is like, he's been
bragging to Ruby about taking driving lessons, and the mom
is like, Holly didn't like that. She liked it better
when he just stayed in his room for days playing
video games. At least like she knew where he was
and like he wasn't hurting anybody. Ruby says, they could
hear him talking through the wall in the headset, but

(42:21):
he doesn't have any friends. The only kids knew are
from the facility, and he had nobody else, so they
shouldn't have let him out.

Speaker 3 (42:28):
Ruby says, why did they? Great question?

Speaker 1 (42:30):
So now we're at the Heslin Juvenile Psychiatric Facility in Yonkers.
So he didn't make it to Vermont. He's somewhere local
doctor Mackie. We're talking to her, Henry's BFF, and she's like,
this is every psychiatrist's worst nightmare. For five years, we
gave him the tools to get better. His family petitioned
for his release. He demonstrated he was no longer a threat.
He passed all the exams, he had a perfect record.

(42:51):
The family said they'd care for him. Three psychiatrists, including me,
testified on his behalf, like what else could we have done?
When she met him, she thought he'd turned his life round,
cause I guess when she got there he was already
in treatment there and Rollins.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
Is like, but have you heard the theory?

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Like this is a classic Rowlins where I think this
is what makes Melinda annoyed with her, where she acts
like she's an expert more than people that are experts.
She's like, but have you heard the theory that group
therapy is ineffective for psychopaths because it just helps them
learn how to fake being mentally healthy. And she's like, yes, Rowins,
I'm aware, and I've looked for that. And she says,
no one has ever fooled me. And an entire staff before.

(43:26):
So basically, this kid spent eight years learning how to
appear completely sane. And the doctor's like, yeah, that's what
it looks like. They said, he has one friend in
this place, let's go talk to him. So they're talking
to this kid, and he talked about being angry with Holly,
his stepmom, and said, and then he goes, hate and
anger are not productive emotions, so you can sort of

(43:47):
tell this kid's also just like repeating back what parents
want to hear and what people want to hear. No
idea where Henry is, he said, He goes, he left
me a note when he got out, but and he
puts some money in my commissary, but I would have
no idea where that letter even is. And he's painting
a bird house and Rollins is like, bro, I'm going
to testify that you ate it in a bed at
a serial killer if you don't start spilling, and the
guy's like, I don't know, and Finn goes take a

(44:09):
guess and suddenly well and also yeah, Rollins is like,
I'm gonna cut your time in half.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
You're never gonna get out of here. And he's like,
that's not fair.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
I'm not the same as Henry, and so Finn's like,
take a guess, and suddenly this guy has tons of info.
He goes, maybe check with my older sister Cora. They
hooked up on a visit here once, and Cora always
reminds me of the Woman and the Poor Woman in
the Dean Kine episode. So now we're at Cora's apartment.
Music is blaring, live a cat and a team bust
the door down.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
No one's there.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
But then one second later Cora comes home and is like,
what the hell And they're like down on the ground,
and she's on the ground with like a very wild,
multi level haircut, and she's like, they're like, is Henry
Messner here? And she goes, yeah, he's my boyfriend. And
then they start going through his like meticulously folded piles
of clothes and she goes, don't go through his stuff.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
He doesn't like that. Don't you need a warrant? And
lives like, bitch, your boyfriend is armed and dangerous.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
She goes, He's not how you think he is. He's
a gentle soul. His demons are gone. Okay, we'll see.
So now Cora is an interrogation wood and blinds not
bars and concrete, and she says, Henry just needs to
breathe without people all up in his grill. He needs
some time. And she tells them that he likes to
be by the water, he likes to go to the
park and watch kids play, and that he was at

(45:21):
morning Side Park yesterday and they're like, how do you
know that? She goes whatever. He takes pictures on his phone.
They upload to the cloud, so now they're like, give
us your phone. They go through, They go to the
phone and fuck, there's pictures of Jesse and there are
pictures of Ruby at the house in Oyster Bay, which
means he's been like watching her and stalking her and
knows where she is. They're like, fuck, get to the
house and let's alert the parents. The mom is not

(45:41):
answering her cell and when they get there, the volvo
is gone. So there's a police department from like the
local Oyster Bay PD. There's a car outside but no
cop in it, and then another local cop rolls up
and he's like, what's the big deal and they're like, what,
where the fuck is your guy? Like we have somebody
on the loose, and they're like, he goes there was
a bomb scare at.

Speaker 3 (46:01):
The mall all units.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
So now the cop car is there, but where's the
cop They popped the trunk. He's in there alive, Thank god.
I don't know why Henry wouldn't just stab him for shits,
but he's zip tied and duct taped the house down.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
He obviously I don't know, but also how embarrassing.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
You're a grown ass cop and the kid without hurting
you or injuring you, got you tied up.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
I mean, I guess he has a bunch of guns,
but like, how did this like teen outsmart and overpower
a cop. It's very confusing. So now they answer the house.
The mom is on the ground of the kitchen. It
very much echoes when they found Holly, who was found
dead in the kitchen, and the woman looks pretty dead.
But Rollins finds a pulse upstairs. Cat here's screaming and

(46:43):
it's Charlotte Ruby's friend who's like tied up in the shower,
and she says it was Henry. Henry took Ruby and
he said he wanted to go on a ride. And
then Rollin's is talking to Thin and just out of nowhere,
just Rollin's intuition goes, maybe a ride isn't a car ride?
Are there any amusement parks nearby?

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Huge jump?

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Not sure how Rollins figured that out, but here we are.
They pull up to this closed amusement park and boom.
The Volvos parked right outside the amusement park is locked,
but they could have easily squeezed through the gate. There's
like give in the lock on the gate. Everyone is
searching this place for Henry. Rollins spots a fun house
and once again has serial killer intuition and just knows
that he might be in there. So Finn goes wait

(47:24):
on backup, and Amanda's like right, And then Amanda, Queen
of bad Decisions, is like, I'm just gonna pop into
the fun house by myself.

Speaker 3 (47:31):
And so now she's in a witch wil.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I know this is TV. Obviously they have to enter alone.
They of course they're not going to wait for backup.
They are heroes. But a fun house is the number
one worst place, Like I can't imagine a worst place
it is, And it's also not as funny as the
haunted house that like Finn and Munch went in roy
Pace and that was like funny, Like this is truly

(47:56):
like from the movie US, Like, I don't get out
of there.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
I know it is truly from the movie Else, like
why would you go into a fun house which is
just known for being mirrors, corners, nooks where people can
hide and jump out at any moment, literally the worst.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
So she's in there.

Speaker 1 (48:12):
I remember watching this when it first came out and
being like, oh, this is kind of a neat scene though,
like where you can't tell where he is and you
can't tell where Rollins is, like because it's so many mirrors,
so they filmed it kind of cool. We hear Henry
talking to Ruby telling him how the parents brought him
there before she was born, and she was like, let
me go, please, I won't tell, and he says she's

(48:33):
always been a lying, little tattletale.

Speaker 3 (48:35):
He doesn't believe her. Rollins interrupts.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
Henry has a gun on Rollins and he's like, you're
even prettier up close, and your daughters look just like you,
and she's like, you haven't changed a bit.

Speaker 3 (48:45):
Henry's still a freaky creep.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
So now she goes drop the gun and he goes,
it's not like I'm going to hurt her, And it's like,
why would anybody think that, like you are literally a
fully murderous psychobab.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
She's like your number one enemy.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Yeah yeah, you've been holding on to hate for Ruby,
probably forever.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, So Rollins goes, why don't you let Ruby go?

Speaker 1 (49:04):
We'll stay here, just us too, Because Rollin's is like,
this guy's eighteen.

Speaker 3 (49:07):
I can flirt with him, it's legal.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
She always uses her flirtations to get what she needs.
He's like, you're not mad about Jesse. He goes, I
wouldn't hurt her. She wasn't on my list. So this
guy has like an Adam Sandler style like list of
people or what movie.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
Is that Happy Madison?

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Happy Madison talking about Billy Madison. Somebody has a list
of all the people they want to kill. A Steve
Boucemy I had almost everything right. Happy Madison is like
his production company anyway, So Rollin says, still, a mom
has to protect her kids, and Henry's like, not mine.

Speaker 3 (49:40):
She had me locked up.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
And Ruby's like, that wasn't mom's fault or dad's, and
he goes, yeah, it was your fault. And I wasn't
sorry when mom died in that car crash slash Hope
Davis was unavailable because she was making the movie Love Life,
the television show. Ruby is crying and he calls her
a cry baby. Rollin swoops in and says, I'm the
one who put you you away after you shot my partner.
I made sure you got locked up. So then he

(50:04):
points a gun at her. But it's still a funhouse mirror,
so it's very confusing. Outside there's all these huge teams
moving in. You know, I never know who it is.
It's like Nasau County Police and the CSU teams or whatever.
There's always kinds of like different teams of guys in
like full hard hat and riot gear getting ready to.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
Storm the funhouse.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Rollins is not responding to the radio, which is making
Live really frustrated, but then she finally does and she
says Ruby is coming out with Henry's gun, and so
Ruby comes out gun up, is like, don't shoot me.
They grab her and she says Henry didn't want to
talk to me anymore. He just wanted to talk to Rollins.
And now some guy in a technical unit is like,
we got state police and Nassau County Police en route.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
How experienced is your detective?

Speaker 1 (50:46):
And lives like very don't even question the experience of
my detectives, you little punk. Plus this is now downgraded
because he's disarmed, and they're like, yeah, unless he took
Rollins's gun, we have no idea what's going on in there.
So they're like, well, it'll be kind of tough to
sneak up on someone in a house of mirror. So
the guy goes, I'm gonna try to sneak some cameras
in there. She keeps trying to radio Rollins, who won't respond,

(51:07):
and then finally she's like, give us a few minutes.
Henry and I are talking. So now we get the
little moment that we always get between Rollins and a
psycho where she's like, why'd you come here? And he goes, well,
I had my childhood taken away from me. No beaches,
no amusement parks, just arts and crafts, and that's I
guess a reference to the bird houses that they had
to paint back at the facility. He loves the ocean

(51:27):
because the ocean doesn't give a fuck. The ocean does
what it wants, take what it wants. The ocean is
a psychopath. So he tells the story about coming to
that park and the beach. I guess this park is
right next to a beach. When he was six with
a kid named Oscar and his mom a little unnerving,
the kid, Oscar, couldn't swim. He didn't know that there

(51:47):
was deep water at the edge of the flats. He
got sucked under a riptide. He said he saw him
gasping for air. The kid's mom jumped in, so did
a lifeguard, but both Oscar and his mom drowned, which
they She goes, that must have been scary, and he goes,
I just did what the ocean wanted me to do.
Floated with the tide. The coastguard found me a mile
from shore, and I guess his mom was a mess,

(52:09):
and he was like, I was more than okay. That
was the first time I knew I was different. I
was just bummed I didn't get to see it, meaning
he didn't get to see his friend and his mother drowned.
Outside Live is getting annoyed. She needs Rolins to update her,
and on top of that, the bossy man in the
hot hard hat is like, it's not your call. We're
going in in five minutes. So inside, Rollins is like,
so what's up, dude, Like what do you want to do?
You want to come out, you want to get shot,

(52:30):
you want to come with me and I'll protect you.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
And he's like, why would you protect me?

Speaker 1 (52:33):
And she's like, because I remember you as a little
boy in the kitchen eating strawberries. Call back to last episode.
He goes, you flinched when I walked past, but you
didn't leave, and she says I was worried about you,
and even now I don't want you to die. And
Rollins comes out finally with Henry cuffed, and Henry's like,
I couldn't help myself.

Speaker 3 (52:52):
Just ask her.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I'm not of sound mind like he's already talking like
the fucking joker. Liv's like, what the fuck? And Rollins
is like, I'm sorry. I just love playing Mindhunter. I
can't stop myself. I love to noodle around in the
head of these creepy psychos. She's like, this spree is
all he's been thinking about for eight years, and wherever
he ends up, they need to throw away the key.
So top of act four, this seems like could be

(53:14):
the end of the episode.

Speaker 3 (53:15):
But there's more.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Top of act four, Henry's being evaluated, but alas our
Hoong days are long gone at this point. So it
is mister Noodle aka Olivia's therapist, doctor Peter Lindstrom. He's
been in seventeen episodes. I didn't realize so many, but
he is quite recurring in these later seasons, some of
the mid teens to the twenties. And he says, he's
not there to judge you, Henry, I'm just trying to

(53:37):
figure out how we got here. And Henry says, four
months ago. So I guess it's been four months. So
he got out in December and now it's like March
or something April, and he's decided to go on his spree.
Henry says, four months ago, the State of New York
said I wasn't a danger to myself or others think
they made the right decision.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
So then Lindstrom comes out to talk.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
To Livin Rollins and Careesi and he's like, whoever let
this kid out should have their license revoked.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Cariese's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Hindsight's twenty twenty doc is he competent to stand trial?
And the doc is like, it's complicated, starring Meryl Streep
and Alec Baldwin. He's like, so they're basically like does
he know right from wrong? Can he aid in his defense,
and Lindstrom is like, hello, I'm a professional, I know
what the legal parameters are. But he's also saying that
Henry has two standard deviations away from the normal range
for callous on emotional behavior when he was ten. A

(54:25):
psychopath brain is different, probably from birth. But his defense
may argue that his personality disorder affects his sanity. So
Rollins argues that he knew exactly what he was doing
and he knew it was wrong, and the doctor's like, yes,
but he spent half his life locked up and then
was sent home to the family he blamed for doing
the locking up and lives. It's like pouring gas on
a fire and lighting a match, or whatever, pouring gas

(54:47):
on something and lighting a match. And his defense will
be to put the state on trial for letting him
out in the first place. And Rollins is like, fuck
that he gets to go on a spring break killing spree,
settle a bunch of scores, and then go back to
group there be with his friends at Camp Heesland. I
don't think so, Rollins is like, I thought there was
some of it was true about when she was in
the funhouse with him, She's not only acting.

Speaker 3 (55:10):
And I'm with Rollins.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
I hate this therapist in this moment, I go, Benson,
you better find another therapist. He's not good because what
you want to be soft on this guy?

Speaker 3 (55:19):
He's just killed multiple people.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Even earlier he shot a cop like the I think
the States should be sued for letting him out, And
I think this therapist fucking sucks. Like why are we
making excuses for the psychopath that is going to continue
to murder? I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (55:31):
Here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
If he goes to jail, he's just gonna murder in jail.
If he goes to a psychiatric facility, they'll just keep
him drugged up and he won't be able to hurt anybody.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
They can't get him drugged up in prison, maybe I
don't know, because he can murder people there too, Like
I don't understand. Yeah, yeah, he keep him in solitary confinement,
Like fuck it, Like again than the born psychopath that's
like poor Henry, poor Henry as his daughter, as his sister,
Ruby is getting the shit beat out of her and
now is dead and they're still just like but Henry's

(56:00):
kind of crazy. We gotta take care of him. I'm
like in a twilight zone with this thing.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but okay, So Lindstrom is like, I
know you want to see him punished, but sending a
mentally ill person to prison, I've seen prisons where there's
one psychologist for five hundred men. It's like the Dark Ages.
And Carisey's like, all right, we just competent or not,
Like I gotta know, like what's up? This is black
and white for cares And He's like, he is competent,

(56:25):
but the question is the problem? Like you asking me
whether he's competent is kind of the problem. Is what
Lindstrum says, you.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
How you were brought in?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
What do you mean we brought you here to say
if he's competent or not. If you had a problem
with the question, you shouldn't have come in.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
But I think he's saying there's shades of gray here.
It's not just black and white. And you know, I
see where he's coming from in his like as a
psychiatric professional.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
Anyway, Rollin's is about to break down. She's like, I
gotta go get some fresh air. Lisa's with her. They
have to go outside together. Caresee's like, I'll go with her.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Lindstrom asks Live how she's She goes, it's been a
tough year, I think, just referencing the pandemic. And she goes,
I'm lucky. Noah's okay, my squad is healthy. And then
Lindstrom goes and what about Stabler? You said he reappeared
out of nowhere and Live goes, yeah, and it's been
a lot to process. And he's like, well, I can
see why you want an appointment, and I really look

(57:20):
forward to it. That's such a weird thing to say.
If my therapist was like I ran under her Trader
Joe's and she was like, I heard you're having a problem,
and I really look forward to our session on Sunday,
I'd be like, what, that's.

Speaker 3 (57:31):
A weird thing to say.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Lives like yeah, cool, me too, bro, and then she
just bounces right out of the room. She does not
want to talk to Doc mister Noodle anymore. In the
competency hearing, Lindstrom is on the stand once again trying
to color the shades of gray between the law and
psychiatry and the judge like everyone else is like black
or white, competent or not, and he goes yes, and

(57:53):
they excuse his ass, so he's out of there. Henry's
lawyer is April Andrews, who is played by Aaron Anderson.
She's been in Sixthsode of SVU, including I Deserve Some
Loving Too, which we covered. She has like an eighty
Falco vibe to me, and she plays a character named
Ainsley and then just like that like three episodes. Look,
but she has kind of like a young Edie Falco

(58:14):
thing going on for me. Not that Edie Falco's not young,
but this woman's younger.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
Anyway.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
The judge rules that Henry is capable of participating in
his own defense, and his lawyer is like, okay, we'll
be pleading not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect,
and then she kind of starts to argue her case
and the judge is like save it for the jury,
and Henry like so creepily goes, you're being rude to
my lawyer. Let her finish, and then he stands up
starts heading for the judge. The slowest bailiffs on the

(58:41):
planet are not moving at all. This fucking kid grabs
a pencil. Cariese goes to stop him. He stabs Coresi
in the ear with a pencil. The judge is screaming,
get him out of here. Henry's screaming, I want my daddy,
and Rollins is rushing to help a bleeding Coresi. It's chaos,
like truly at the hospital now Careese. He's being discharged.
Henry apparently just mispuncturing his ear drum. The judge remanded

(59:05):
Henry he'll be medicated until he's deemed confident. Amanda's like,
so he gets what he wants. He stabbed you to
prove that he's crazy, and he's still going to stand trial.
But he killed his dad, his stepmom, his five year
old brother. If he's not crazy, then no one is.
So Coreesy seems like he's on the side of this
guy being crazy too.

Speaker 3 (59:22):
It's weird.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
Rollin's of all people, just like doesn't buy the mental
health part of it. But she's also all about getting
into the heads of these psychos and finding out what's wrong,
like what's up with them? So then cut to Rollins
marching into a cell to talk to Henry, who is
drugged up. Eyes are open, but he's like totally catatonic.
She says, I know you can hear me. And when

(59:43):
I told you I didn't want you to die, I lied.
If you ever get out of here, if you go
after Careesy or anyone in my family, it will be
your last day on earth.

Speaker 3 (59:51):
I'll kill you myself. And he doesn't respond at all.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
But as she leaves, he gets that sick, little half
smile that he had at the beginning, and that's wolf baby.
But also, this guy would never get out again, you
never know. Maybe that's what she's fighting against. Maybe she's like,
if he goes to a mental health facility, there's a
chance in thirty years he'll get out again. And when
he's like forty eight and he'll still kill But I
just feel like he would be like remanded for the

(01:00:16):
rest of his life.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Like I don't think that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
I'm more having an issue because I've watched every episode
of in just like that, and I cannot place this
woman or this character Ainslie, Like I can't. Yeah, I
say she's in a few I keep looking at the
photos and I just do not know. I don't know
who she is. I can't figure it out. I'm going
to watch the episodes again because it's killing me. It's
killing me, so stay tuned for that.

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yeah, lock him up, Lock him up, Lock him up.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
I don't know anything about the case this is based on,
so looking forward to your rendition. But before we get
to the crime, Lisa, I just want to remind everybody
that we are going on tour.

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
We've already we've been on tour. We're going on tour
tour of this episode. We're in the middle of the tour.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
I am not exactly sure where we are when this
episode comes out, but I believe it will be the
October Range, Buffalo, New Haven, Burlington, Cleveland, Boston, Boston. We
need your asses. If you live in Rhode Island, if
you live anywhere remotely close to Boston, please drive in
and come see us. We got to fill the Wilber
at least to what do you say, half three quarter capacity?

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
I want it so big, I want it full.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Well, let's okay, Toronto, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, Chicago,
Park West. That means a lot to me. And then
we'll be back in Madison, Minneapolis. We're going to Milwaukee,
Saint Louis, Sacramento, New York, and Philly. So yeah, but
Chicago's part of a festival. Yeah, And the New York
show is selling up pretty quickly, so grab your tickets

(01:01:47):
to that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
Sacramento. You were like one of the littest shows we
ever did.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
So if every single one of you is not back,
I don't know enough to start knocking on doors. But
I'm very excited Chicago too. We need you guys to
come out Chicago. This is going to be our only
show in Chicago for the rest of the year. So
all of our Rosemont gals that came out last year,
all of our people that have come out to other venues,
please come see us there, because that's a big venue too, right, Lisa, Oh,
our bust is cool. I've seen some bands there. We

(01:02:12):
got to fill that baby up to My sister puked
in a garbage can in that lobby.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
My god, remember when I poked in a garbage can?
We went to that like rave party? All right?

Speaker 2 (01:02:20):
Sure do okay, stay tuned for crime. Listen to our ads.
We'll see you in a few seconds. So this episode

(01:02:46):
is based on the Willie basket case, and I want
to say we've researched so many crimes for this podcast.
This was the most hard for me to organize because
this person has committed so many crimes.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
Oh my god, they're all.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Kind of overlapping, so I would be putting it in
the order, and then I'm like, wait, did he do
this to this this person or this person or that like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
It truly was so confusing because.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
There are so many crimes and sentences and overlapping things.
So you know, I did my best, but truly, I
bet I fucked up here because I kept switching and
being like, wait, did he puncture this one's lung or
did he gash this one's forehead because they both aren't Like.
It was so many crimes, so many articles. But I
did get lucky because this all happened in New York

(01:03:32):
and so there's a lot of great news and publications there.
So Willie boskin he is a self proclaimed monster. He's
a monster baby. Boskett once admitted to committing more than
two thousand crimes between the ages of nine and fifteen,
including twenty five stabbings.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
And yes, that is nine. I said nine.

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
And you know, when there's legislation and laws that happen
after you as an example, you know you're bad. He
once said that he killed for end quote, for the experience.
He was a child growing up in Harlem, and as
early as second grade he was trouble.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
Trouble did that even sound lake Taylor Swift? No, not
at all? Okay, so like it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
As a small, small child, he threw a typewriter out
of a third story window and missed a teacher by
like not a lot of space. And you know, of course,
classic questions arise about this kind of person. Did the
courts and juvenile authorities help create the monster? That's what,
of course he believes, or did his rage stem from
his upbringing on West one hundred and fourteenth Street in Harlem,

(01:04:38):
or another one of his claims is that he was
destined to follow the path of a father he never met,
who was also a criminal.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
But also what I was just gonna say, that's the
kind of thing that always gets live.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
Yeah, like you know, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. And
of course, in the classic sense of like criminals, oftentimes
he was abused.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
He was sexually abused by his grandfather.

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
So at age nine he was put in his first
reform school and since then he's only been free a
total of eighteen months in his life, and that's not consecutively.
That is included with like escapes in different parole or
like getting let out. But he's only been in the
free world a total of eighteen months in his whole
life past the age of nine.

Speaker 3 (01:05:23):
That's so so fucked up. It is so when he went.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
In at nine, he says, you know, like he was
just a bad kid, but he left with all the
lessons of how to commit crimes. So he was at
the Brookwood Center for Boys from nineteen seventy four to
nineteen seventy seven. And it is a maximum security institution
and he was in there with murders, rapists, and arm robbers.
And Sylvia Hoenig is a social worker and she first

(01:05:49):
worked with him at age twelve and said that he
was a terror, like he attacked the staff with clubs,
smashed windows, stole shit, sodom, I other inmates escaped in
state vehicles. And then it's hard to blame the facility
when you are doing this, yeah, you know what I mean.

(01:06:09):
It's not like you learned all this and you're doing
it on the way out. You have no fear of
any authority or like stealing vehicles and catching fire and
then raping your other inmates.

Speaker 3 (01:06:20):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
He was found to be very precocious and empathetic though,
which I have a hard time believing.

Speaker 3 (01:06:28):
But that is I guess what the staff found.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
They said that he was warm and did have potential,
but he was there for stabbing people, so I don't
understand where the empathy comes out of. And he's quoted
in the New York Times that he stabbed people because
in quotes, because they made me mad, So I don't know.
Honick says he was hardly ever disciplined, and that caused

(01:06:53):
him to get more and more like, you know, aggressive.
In her diaries, it's recorded how Willie was allowed to
go into town with female staff members and get drunk,
how he was permitted not to attend class, and then
you know, all the serious things I mentioned earlier, but
also he like hit another boy with a poker in
the boy's eye, and then much chiller stealing cigarettes and

(01:07:17):
then selling them, which does seem like normal like jail activities.
But also he drove a truck into a social worker, so.

Speaker 3 (01:07:27):
That is what he was up to. But this actually
reminded me.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
So I have like a little joke about jail that
I do in my set, and in Sacramento, this dude
was like, oh, I've been to prison, and he was
in prison for a long time, and he was telling
us the whole audience that he would take bottles of
listrine for commissary, pour it out and then make sweet
and sour sauce and sell teriyaki and sweet and sour

(01:07:52):
sauce throughout the prison and that's how he made money.

Speaker 3 (01:07:55):
And we were also intrigued.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
And then someone from the back had also been to prison,
so then she started like how'd you make or like
asking questions that you would only know from someone on
the inside, and then he admitted.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Finally, he goes, I also sold.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Meth so so your money just wasn't just from the sauces.
And then we took a photo after the show and
we got into a prison post and it is so hard,
like it's gonna be my workout is how to like
hold a prison post? What's the prison post? It's like
one leg down. It's kind of like a boy band pose.
It's like one leg down on your knee and one standing,
but the knee never hits the floor and then you

(01:08:30):
you hold your arm out and then you hold hands
in the middle.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
But he spoke Russian and we bonded.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
And then after God, another dude came up to me
and said, oh, I spent this many years in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
That guy doesn't know shit.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
And then there was another girl who was like, I
didn't like prison, like this guy, I was there for years,
and I was like, I did not, I've only seen
hell yeah, I know it is like Sacramento. His heart
as fuck. And I was, you know, I said this
like in the last episode. But everyone told me like
not to go outside and to go for walks because
people pop out of nowhere. And I was like, okay,
I mean, I've lived in giant cities, but I'm going

(01:09:05):
to listen to the people that live here and not
walk if they'd tell me not to walk in a
certain area. And then someone from the club was driving
me home at night and I saw people pop out
of bushes and stuff like they truly do, come out
of anywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Poppables, no way, popples.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Yeah wait, that's actually so genius of that guy, because
prison food's so gross that I bet everybody just wanted
sweet and sour sauce to like slather it on their
food and make it like, you.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
Know, sweet and sour sauce. You can kind of eat
anything with that stuff all over it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Yeah, he said he worked in the kitchen, so he
was able to like take ingredients and do it. But
there's tiktoks of people in jail doing tiktoks of like
the food that they should try, and they go, that's bustin'
and it's like cheesy ramen sandwiches and like all the ingredients,
and I watch them make prison food on these like, wow,
it's a category of the Internet.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
So I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:55):
That was a little aside, and I apologize, and we
are back to this guy last night off he drove
a truck into a social worker, Okay, and that's the thing.
It's like, wait, so he's in there and he's blaming
the authorities in this place and we learned to be bad.
But then also it seemed like this there weren't any
rules for him and he was able to do what
he wanted. And so I'm imagining this like the boy

(01:10:17):
from the episode what's the episode with fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Oh Trials when he drives the car. Yeah, but is
that the Elizabeth Banks the Julie Bowen one? I always
fuck it up?

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Okay, there are I hate I hate vegetables. They're just
they're gross candy. I'm with you, kid, So it's just
it's really wild. So he got released in nineteen seventy seven,
and so he was fourteen when released, So all of
this that I just said was before he was fourteen

(01:10:50):
years of age.

Speaker 3 (01:10:51):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
So they sent him off to a group home in Brooklyn.
He got a job as a maintenance worker, and the
supervisor at Brookwood told Honig that was gonna kill somebody
one of these days, and it's like duh. So he
goes to Harlem and then him and his cousin, the Judas,
roam the subways looking for drunks to rob. So March nineteenth,
nineteen seventy eight, he shot and killed one person in

(01:11:13):
the subway system with a twenty two caliber pistol, and
then eight days later he shot and killed another person.
And then he got only five years because that was
the max at the time, So because he was underage,
even though he shot and killed two people in cold blood,
he only got five years.

Speaker 3 (01:11:32):
Jesus.

Speaker 2 (01:11:33):
So June nineteen seventy eight, he went in to serve
his time in custody and everyone flipped the fuck out,
So that led the governor at the time, Hugh Carey,
to win passage of a new law letting juvenile offenders
be tried as adults for murder. So now defendants can
be as young as thirteen and the sentence can range
from seven years to life. And so New York toughened
it's juvenile criminal laws because of this guy. And it's

(01:11:57):
known as the Willie Basket Law, aka the Juvenile a
Fender Law, and it remains one of the toughest in
the nation. And that's from a nineteen eighty five La
Times article. It went into effect in nineteen seventy eight,
and even as like it still stands as of twenty
twenty and stuff like it's there you will be tried
as an adult if you are a murderer a teener.

Speaker 3 (01:12:19):
And that was seventy eight.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
Was like when the subway was like at the height
of being like thunderedome Like the subway at that time
I think was really really fucked up.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:12:29):
Colin Quinn and his show is it New York Stories,
or the book that accompanies it is The Coloring Book,
and it's incredible. But he said, yeah, it's wild to
see people now on iPhones and iPads in there. He's like,
I would have to hide my Metro card in my sock. Yeah,
you know, like you couldn't have anything.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
My parents lived in the city at that time and
they never took the subway, and so when I moved
to the city, you know, twenty five years later, they
were like, you're not taking the subway, are you? And
I was like just seven times a day, Like I
just take it everyone where I go every day. My
mom couldn't believe it, but it was like she just
had moved to the suburbs and didn't really realize that
it had gotten cleaned up, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
But yeah, you know, you're bad when laws are made
for you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:10):
So he was at the Goshen Youth Facility and this
dude bashed two guards in the head with a mop handle,
and then he also temporarily escaped. Honig said his letters
became more and more angry, like they kept in touch,
and he realized and said he mentally prepared himself that
he's going to be in prison for the rest of
his life. But December nineteen eighty three, a few days

(01:13:33):
before his twenty first birthday, he was released. And then
March nineteenth and nineteen eighty four, he was arrested for
attempted robbery, but he kept causing problems in prison. So
his original charge when he entered in nineteen eighty four
was a sentence of three and a half to seven
years where he mugged a half blind seventy two year
old man in Harlem. But because of all of his

(01:13:54):
additional crimes that he committed in prison, it's now like fifty.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
Three to life. So he went in.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
But even that mugging, that seems like such a low
sentence for a repeat offender. But again, even as like
a young adult, he set fire to his cells multiple times,
he would attack the guards that would come in to
put out the fires.

Speaker 3 (01:14:17):
And he also didn't look dangerous.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
They said, you know, he was five nine, one hundred
and fifty pounds and he's handsome, dimpled face is what
they say.

Speaker 3 (01:14:25):
And I can confirm he is hot. I did find
one photo of him.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
He is sexy, and hopefully we'll get the rights to
that photo to put in our Instagram and you can
go look at him or not. But I would say
he's probably one of the top cutest criminals we have
covered one hundred percent, and he had a genius IQ
and at times like I think it was the La Times.
One of the articles I was reading compared him to
Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, and I had
to include that because Kara, of course loves Silence of

(01:14:51):
the Lambs. Yes, And they also compared him like to
the Silence of the Lambs movies because of the padlocking
devices they used to restrain him. They really had to
restrain the fuck out of this guy, because he kept
attacking guards and starting fires and beating the shit out
of people and using weapons and escaping like and Honig
eventually stopped visiting him. I'm the old social worker. She said,

(01:15:13):
she just couldn't because he was living like an animal.
And the more they treat him like a monster, the
more monstrous he becomes. And you know, I'm going to
take a little aside to man to say that it's
also wild how close to his father his actions are.
His father, Legit went into the same reform school at
age nine as well, so they both were in the

(01:15:33):
same like locked up place at nine. They both stopped
schooling in the third grade when Boskett's mother was pregnant
with him. His father was arrested for a double murder
at age twenty, killing two people in a Milwaukee pond
shop in nineteen sixty two, and then the dad escaped,
robbed a bank and was on the FBI Most Wanted list,
and then finally locked up in Kansas. But and while

(01:15:54):
in Kansas, he ended up graduating from like the program
with it, you know, with the University of like with
a university with straight a's, And he got elected to
be a Phi Beta Kappa, which is Phi Beta Kappa.

Speaker 3 (01:16:08):
Is like a national honor society. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
Yeah, So he got into that, and then he was
released in nineteen eighty three, which seems wilder, and then
got a job at an aerospace company and now back
to a twist. And then immediately he was charged with
molesting his girlfriend's daughter. But then the girlfriend helped him escape,
smuggled him a revolver, and there was a police shootout,

(01:16:33):
and his final act came March seventh, nineteen eighty five,
when he used his two last bullets to kill himself
and his girlfriend. Oh my god, and now I have
an even wilder The world is so fat. His grandfather
was also a criminal who was arrested in nineteen forty
two for armed robbery and also went to the same

(01:16:56):
reform school for boys.

Speaker 3 (01:16:59):
So it's three generations. It's a cycle.

Speaker 2 (01:17:04):
Yeah, And when Willy was growing up, and whenever he
asked about his father, his mother and grandmother would just
say he's a bad man and you're.

Speaker 3 (01:17:12):
Just like him.

Speaker 2 (01:17:13):
And so yeah, he never met his father because he
was in prison for the double murder at the time
Willy was born.

Speaker 3 (01:17:18):
And that's so fucked.

Speaker 1 (01:17:22):
Yeah, like you've just been told you're bad, You're gonna
be bad.

Speaker 2 (01:17:26):
Yeah, this is like so complicated, so sad, so vish.
I can't even I don't even know the right words
to fully dissect all this. So, you know, back to Willy.
While he's in custody, he stabbed a prison guard and
then was facing twenty five to life for the attack,
which happened when he was being interviewed by a journalist

(01:17:47):
who's helping him write his autobiography.

Speaker 3 (01:17:49):
And he's twenty six.

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
He's already serving this like twenty five twenty years to life,
you know, sentence for assault and arson, which have nothing
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:17:57):
While he's there already.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
These more like it's just wild and so he grabbed
the shoulder of this guard spun him around and then
stabbed him in the chest. And then he jumped on
a table and said surround me, surround me, but nobody
surrounded him, and all the other inmates just backed away
and left. So he tried to create.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
Some kind of like ryo, and everyone's like, we hate yo,
so you're not even like yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:23):
So he's in.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
He's the New York State's most violent inmate. And he
has a special cell that's stripped of everything. No light
fixtures because he has swallowed those in the past, so
he can't have lights. The guards aren't even allowed to
speak to him. And there's a dark quote coming up
next that is the only noise Willie Boskett is going

(01:18:45):
to hear, and that is the sound of his toilet flushing.
And this was said to The New York Times by
Thomas A. Coughlin three D, the Commissioner of the Department
of Correctional Services at the time, and he at one
point tried to challenge some of the restraints and shot
in court as cruel and unusual punishment, but he lost
that case an appeal because you're too wild, you know

(01:19:06):
what I mean, Like you can't stab guards and think
they're going to just keep you in the you know,
like they're not going.

Speaker 3 (01:19:14):
To continuously risk themselves.

Speaker 2 (01:19:16):
But he was fighting for them to stop this one
restraint because they chain him to his cell door each
time he's permitted out, so from the in from the outside,
and he like puts his you know, arms and legs
through and they shackle him to the door, and then
they open the door and unshackle him and shackle him
again because they couldn't trust him at all. And I

(01:19:38):
understand why he feels dehumanized by this, but I also
understand the guards are being like they're getting their lungs punctured,
you know. And he quote he has a quote Willie
Bosket where he said, I laugh at this system because
there ain't a damn thing it can do to me
except to deal with the monster at his creator it

(01:19:59):
has created. And he said this in court when he
acted as his own lawyer in an assault case. So
he acted as his own lawyer a lot. He was
always representing himself. So in his opening statement when he
stabbed the guard Earl Porter, he was like, the only
thing I regret is that I didn't kill him. And
he said that to the jury and that's the punctured lung.

(01:20:19):
And then also there was another attack where one time
he was being led from his cell to the exercise yard,
and there was a quote to The Times the Correctional
Services Department James B. Flatteau said, mister Boskett removed a
restraining chain from his waist to hit the guard. He
then ran into his cell and closed the door. And

(01:20:39):
the guard has a six inch head laceration. He is
six years old. He's incarcerated at the Wendy Correctional Facility.

Speaker 3 (01:20:48):
I wonder if you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
Say it like that, w e ND we talked about
that facility before.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
I feel like we knew somebody else that's there. Yeah,
I wonder are you searching in our drive? I'm like,
let's see who else is there?

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
Mark David Chapman, the man who murdered John Lennon, was
transferred there in twenty twelve. Harvey Weinstein, whoa after he
was convicted, he was returned.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
Oh wait, that's wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:21:15):
Wait it says it has him under notable inmates for Wendy,
So I don't know he.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
Was there for some point. Yeah, so he's still there.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
And one time he said end quote I'll haunt this
damn system. He has a quote where he said that
he's going to throw balls of fire back into the
devil's face. So he's definitely ready for hell. If you
want to know more about him, there is a book
called All God's Children, The Basket Family and the American
Tradition of Violence, and it's written by Fox Butterfield, and

(01:21:45):
it's about the root causes of the system of violence,
from slavery in the South to the dissolution in Harlem.
So you know, he is black, his family is black,
and there's just like a long line of bosket family crime,
like you know, like I said, it's three generations, and
so this book kind of tracks from slavery where the

(01:22:08):
white boss gets ended up, like how this happened and
how it all ended up in Harlem and this like
genealogy of crime. I chose not to kind of focus
on this. You can obviously check the book. I felt
strange in my own personal feelings to tie a lineage back.
I feel it like takes away from personal responsibility in

(01:22:30):
a way I felt uncomfortable with. But obviously I believe
in generational trauma.

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Yeah, and how things happen and how you're raising this
guy was a fucking genius if one person had just
helped him, taken an interest in him, like, you know,
helped him focus his attention towards something other than violence
and crime and telling him that he was a piece

(01:22:55):
of shit. I wonder how things might have turned out differently,
But one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:59):
Hundred percent, Yeah, it's I tried reading a lot of
the stuff from this book. It was I would say
over my head, like I was not able to like
fully connect it. And in the show notes that the
La Times article really touched on this book and the
lineage of just the history of crime and violence that

(01:23:20):
he was raised in, and so there's definitely more to
explore with.

Speaker 3 (01:23:26):
Yeah, I just h but I had no idea the
middle of New York. Yeah, and this is the guy
where Juvenile.

Speaker 1 (01:23:33):
I mean, that's like we've sort of debated that in
many SVU episodes, like Trying Kids as Adults and like
the episode Juvenile where one kid is going to get
charged even though he didn't do the majority of it
because he's fourteen versus thirteen, you know, or whatever the
little arbitrary cut off lines of age are.

Speaker 3 (01:23:53):
But that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:23:55):
This guy is like who put that legislature, legislature out there,
but thank you for telling us all that. Let's roll
right into our post mortem, baby wow. So that concludes
the two part arc that you've all been clamoring for

(01:24:16):
about a psychotic eight year old that becomes a psychotic
eighteen year old um or ten year old to eighteen
year old.

Speaker 2 (01:24:22):
I thought that Dad, he deserves to die, and I
don't feel bad for him. I just feel bad for
his son and wife that had to die because.

Speaker 1 (01:24:28):
Of him, because of his inability to look at the
truth or taken any information about his son's condition.

Speaker 3 (01:24:37):
What it's really fucked up. There's really nothing to say.

Speaker 2 (01:24:40):
I hate that Dad obviously shouldn't have been let out
that the psychiatric place should be held responsible.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
He's like, what the fuck? I know, because it's like everybody,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:24:51):
I guess it's like we just placed so much stock
in someone being a child. Whereas it's like Ted Bundy
was charming, the fucking kemp and Kemper was funny, was charming.
These guys can be charming, like you can fool people
like it's just it's wild how the doctor was like,
no one's ever fooled me. And a whole staff before

(01:25:12):
It's like, this is the best psychopath ever, We've met,
the biggest, Like he's the best one.

Speaker 3 (01:25:17):
Like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:19):
I feel like there had to have been signs, even
in the courtroom when he gives that little like dead
eyed half smile.

Speaker 3 (01:25:25):
I just tried to do it, and I truly looked
like I was.

Speaker 2 (01:25:27):
I needed Trey McDougall to be there to testify. But
he's probably in prison for murder.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
He's in prison for murdering another psychopath.

Speaker 3 (01:25:38):
He did the opposite of what this dad did.

Speaker 1 (01:25:40):
He took matters into his own fucking hands and save
the world from a psych a tiny psycho.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
Yeah, I don't even remember.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
Oh that a Conscience is that episode if you want
to check that out.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
Yes, Conscience hard to spell, easy to watch, great video,
great great episode.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
Ypsod of television, sad crime. But listen, you can't keep
attacking guards. You will be in a silent room with
no friends. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:07):
I do think it's cool too that the show like
got him back and was able to like do kind
of like a eight years later type of episode. That's
like a neat thing that you don't see in television
a lot. So it's a cool it's a cool thing.
But I love that Amanda Rollins.

Speaker 2 (01:26:20):
She'll flirt with a child, with a teen, with a
grown person, she'll flirt Oh yeah, a.

Speaker 1 (01:26:24):
Psychopath personality disorder. I mean she does not care. She
will flirt with you like you are getting a swipe
from Amanda Rollins for sure. And I mean it was
a stupid move, but I thought it was cool. They
did a scene in a funhouse. I thought it was
a cool cinematically. I liked the funhouse scene, I.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
Thought, honestly, making me really bummed now that the we're
not going to get new episodes.

Speaker 3 (01:26:51):
I know, I know what.

Speaker 2 (01:26:54):
The whole time at the beach, I kept thinking of
the sv episode about the lifeguard, about the powerful life guard.

Speaker 1 (01:26:59):
I mean, Dark's the most powerful lifeguard. But it was
so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:27:05):
So then our friends came later to the beach and
one of them was like, wow, it looks so calm
and nice, and I was like someone was saved a
half hour ago, Like what are you talking about? The
waves are insane. I've never been dragged down like this
in my life. I was fully dragged and spun under
the waves multiple times, hitting the sand like it was
nuts out there. But I had my goggles, thank you
to my father, So I was ready for it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:28):
But it was not.

Speaker 1 (01:27:28):
You were wearing goggles at the beach, of course I was.
I don't think I've ever seen that.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Oh why would I want the saltwater splashing into my
sensitive eyes when I want goggles?

Speaker 1 (01:27:40):
I guess because like when I go to the beach,
like when I go to the ocean, I kind of
just like wade in and maybe I'll dunk my head under.
But I'm not like swimming the way I'm swimming in
a pool as much.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
No, I'm trying to jump in those waves. I'm trying
to ride the waves bad.

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
Yeah, do I know your boogie boys, I'm the Sean
wife of the rock ways.

Speaker 3 (01:27:58):
You sh right up the last. I love that. But
I just that's funny.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Like, write me and tell me if you consider goggles
to be a beach thing or a pool thing or both.

Speaker 3 (01:28:09):
I could.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
I brought them into the pool too, and my friend
laughed on my face. But because that was chic, that
was more chic. It was like a sexy hotel, no
children allowed.

Speaker 1 (01:28:19):
You're also basically talking right into a plot line from
the episode of this from this episode of SVU. You
were basically almost dragged under like that little kid who
died at the beach while the psycho just watched, Oh
my god, Yeah, did you let the ocean take what
it wanted and then it just spit you back out?

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
Kind of because I'm a good knock on wood, I'm
a I'm a good swimmer. Yeah I knew, Yeah, I
knew the lifeguards were on. It was fin What happened
was so our friends, there's two Julia's they were they
were at the place where they were riding the waves,
and that's where I wanted to get.

Speaker 3 (01:28:51):
But anytime I tried to get.

Speaker 2 (01:28:53):
To them to ride the waves, I was swushed back
and thrown so far. So it was like a forty
five minute excursion to try to get to them and
just being beaten up. My tit's falling out. People lost
body goggles askew. But I know I don't go into
the ocean without goggles.

Speaker 1 (01:29:14):
And you know what, it's crazy that I'm even I
hate saltwater in my eyes, like I hate it. So
that's why I'm kind of like when I go in
I'm just more of like a waiter in the ocean,
and I'm not like I don't I never as a kid,
I never wore goggles in the ocean.

Speaker 2 (01:29:30):
Well that's because your dad didn't steal things from the
pool Lost and found.

Speaker 3 (01:29:34):
You know, I wish, I can only wish. Yeah, so
I have lots of goggles because my dad is a thief.

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
Wait, and we didn't even get to this, but you
did a big surprise for your parents. You want you
surprise them on your birthday?

Speaker 3 (01:29:45):
I shir did? It really works out great?

Speaker 1 (01:29:47):
If you don't watch Lisa's if you don't follow glitter
Cheese on Instagram, what, I don't know what you're doing
with your life. But you can see a video of
it there of her surprising your parents, and it's very sweet.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
And I'm on TikTok. I'm trying to get viral. I'm
trying to get famous on Ti TikTok. And I'm you know,
it's embarrassing to say out loud, but it is the truth.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
Yeah, there you have it.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
I'll use my player path Yeah more psychopath Get ready
for segments, guys, Get ready, because I am I'm trying
to get famous on TikTok. I'm watching all these other people.
I'm like, I think I'm funnier than these guys. Of course,
watching a woman shake a salad in the front seat
of her car on a lunch break.

Speaker 3 (01:30:25):
I'm watching a woman eat one o TikTok is so weird.
What goes viral like this.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
One girl, Bella Porch is famous, famous on TikTok, and
literally her first video is like from her just like
wiggling her nose and crossing her eyes to a song
and she's and she's hot, you know, like that's it.
It's like wild. And now she's literally like a millionaire
and she has songs and like a huge career.

Speaker 2 (01:30:48):
Get ready, guys, Get ready, guys, that's what I'm doing.
I'm gonna do it. You know, think I used there.
You don't think there's twenty five segments coming out of
my parents home.

Speaker 3 (01:30:57):
You're wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
Watch out, guy, I'm heading for TikTok stardom.

Speaker 1 (01:31:03):
No.

Speaker 3 (01:31:03):
I was getting really dragged down. It was wild.

Speaker 2 (01:31:05):
But also what's nice is you don't want to lose
your sunglasses in the ocean, you know, because you could
get hit by a wave. But you get the sun
protection too. With the goggles like it's a little dimmer.
Oh you know, yeah, because I have had my sunglasses
fly off.

Speaker 1 (01:31:16):
I think that's what I do is I wear sunglasses
because I figure, oh, those will stop me any air
and water from splashing in my eyes. But I don't
really go under that much in the ocean because of
the salt water. I don't like it in my eyes.
So maybe I'm a goggle girl. Maybe you've convinced me. Yeah,
I gotta get Rosy a new pair the speedo's I
got or keep falling off. Her hair's too like silky?

(01:31:38):
Is your hair too silky for goggles? Call this number below.

Speaker 3 (01:31:43):
They just keep falling down and she doesn't and then she.

Speaker 1 (01:31:46):
They you have to keep them tight, but then she
doesn't like that they're tight and they're making a crease
around her eyes.

Speaker 3 (01:31:51):
You know you can't win.

Speaker 1 (01:31:52):
Let's get into our Do you have any final thoughts?

Speaker 3 (01:31:55):
Jerry Springer? Do I have final thoughts on the beach
or or anything?

Speaker 1 (01:32:00):
Psychopaths so beath children being locked up forever?

Speaker 3 (01:32:04):
Who who can know?

Speaker 1 (01:32:08):
I definitely think we have to be careful about kids.
We brand a psychopath because, like you know, my son
will giggle and be having a great time and then
just slash me with his nails in the face. I
don't think he's a psychopath, you know. People tell me
that's age appropriate, So we should just be careful who
we do decide to call a psycho, even though I've
met many children that are riding the line, baby.

Speaker 3 (01:32:29):
But they have to take the test. But this gu
right into our own.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32):
The thing with my parents' surprise, this is what I
wanted to say. Oh yeah, I think visiting family three
days is perfect an event with three days, that's the
secret number. You come in, you're surprised, they can't believe
they're seeing you. We have a great dinner, we play
some game. You know, I had such fun times with
my sister, like it is, and then you leave while

(01:32:52):
they're still wanting more.

Speaker 3 (01:32:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:32:55):
Day two is like a fun first full day solid.
By day three you're like, I'm getting a little sick
of it, and then you you're out.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
Yeah, yeah, it was really fun.

Speaker 2 (01:33:03):
And our poor cat is so old now though her
she can't retract her clause anymore. Oh no, like, so
they're just out, they're just out, and then they keep
getting stuck in blankets and then she like howls and
you have to unhook her.

Speaker 3 (01:33:17):
It's sad poor mania.

Speaker 2 (01:33:19):
Yeah, all right, go into this go, let's go.

Speaker 1 (01:33:22):
Okay, So this week, you guys know, I'm like a
little bit obsessed with psychopaths. And for this week's what
would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where
we direct you towards a blog, post, a podcast, an organization.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
In this case, we're gonna direct you towards a book
that just something to give you a little bit more
knowledge about what we.

Speaker 3 (01:33:40):
Talked about in today's episode.

Speaker 1 (01:33:41):
And I read a book that I really enjoyed called
The psychopath Test, A Journey through the Madness Industry by
John Ronson. John Ronson's written a bunch of books that
I loved. Also another book called So You've Been Publicly Shamed.
He's he almost does like it's like it's more like sociological.
I feel like the way he writes books, it's not
like I wouldn't. This is like a book about psychopathy
that I think is more accessible to those of us

(01:34:03):
that are not scholars, and like it's not a text
that you're going to read from a college professor. And
so obviously there's more digging to do if you really
want to learn about this kind of thing. But I
think for like an overview, The Psychopaths Test was a
very interesting book and I found it super readable as
like a layman and a non scholar and a non
like you know, psychology student. So he interviews purported psychopaths

(01:34:25):
as well as psychologists and psychiatrists who study them. It
spends a lot of time with Robert D. Hare, the
author of the hair Psychopathy Checklist that I mentioned in
the first episode, Born Psychopath. But overall, it's an examination
of the mental health industry at large, which I know
many of our listeners and we are interested in. So
we will have a link to that in our show

(01:34:46):
notes on our stories the day that the show releases,
this episode releases, and all of our what would sister
peg dos are saved in highlights called WWSPD on our
Instagram page.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
Thank you so much, really appreciate that. And next week
we will be covering Futility. That's season four, episode twenty two,
So please join us, you know, throw us some five stars,
send us a nice message, whatever, you know, whatever, We're
obsessed with all of you. See us on the road
and next week Futility. Bye guys, That's Messed Up as

(01:35:33):
an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like
to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover,
shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail
dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed
Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and
follow us personally at Karraklank and at glitter Cheese.

Speaker 1 (01:35:52):
As always, please see our show notes for sources and
more information.

Speaker 3 (01:35:56):
Thank you so much to our producer KC.

Speaker 1 (01:35:58):
O'Brien, and to our exer John Bradley and our guest
booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme
song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you
to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer,
and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Speaker 3 (01:36:15):
Dun Dunn

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Hosts And Creators

Kara Klenk

Liza Treyger

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Post-Graduate Psychopath